Lebron's resume = 01' Iverson until all-pros made him champ (Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/AD)

[3ball]

They made lebron better, just like he did them

So the argument that Lebron "makes teammates better" is false because teammates didn't see statistical growth on lebron's watch - he simply teamed up so both parties can win rings..

his skillset infact imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, so he needs ready-made stars (team-hopping)..

Otoh, Jordan could play and shoot off-ball, so teammates grew from single-digit rookies to korver all-stars by 94'.. guys actually improved on his watch.

[1987_Lakers]

In terms of efficiency, the real Iverson was MJ during his 2nd 3 peat.

41.5% in the 96 Finals
42.7% in the 98 Finals

[3ball]

In terms of efficiency, the real Iverson was MJ during his 2nd 3 peat.

41.5% in the 96 Finals
42.7% in the 98 Finals

Forget efficiency

Lebron's resume was Iverson until he teamed up with all-pros - they made lebron better, just like he did them

So the argument that Lebron "makes teammates better" is false because teammates didn't see statistical growth on lebron's watch - he simply teamed up so both parties can win rings..

[1987_Lakers]

And MJ's resume was 1st round exits before Pippen came along.

[72-10]

'01 Iverson was one of the best one-on-one offensive players, but his defensive efforts were not as strong as the later stages of LeBron's prime (not referring to '08 LeBron). Iverson was a more skilled offensive player though I wouldn't call him as good of a facilitator of the offense to help improve his teammates' opportunities. Both of them were quite lacking in help. I think Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Mo Williams is more help than what Iverson had.

[dankok8]

In terms of efficiency, the real Iverson was MJ during his 2nd 3 peat.

41.5% in the 96 Finals
42.7% in the 98 Finals

LOL... I didn't know you were a troll too.

[3ball]

'01 Iverson was one of the best one-on-one offensive players, but his defensive efforts were not as strong as the later stages of LeBron's prime (not referring to '08 LeBron). Iverson was a more skilled offensive player though I wouldn't call him as good of a facilitator of the offense to help improve his teammates' opportunities. Both of them were quite lacking in help.

Dwight and Kidd won with no cast too.. Dwight was one of the biggest underdogs ever to win a playoff series

So 1-star teams were routinely winning the 00's East.. a good cast wasn't needed, yet lebron formed a super-team to ensure Finals runs (cheated)

[Shooter]

MJ was more player-dependent and needed Pippen beyond any player ever needed anyone else. You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

[Shooter]

Michael Jordan himself even acknowledged the talk of Pippen being the best player in the league in 1996.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-10.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-6.png

:lebronamazed:

[72-10]

I mean I think the 2001 76ers would have lost to the Kings if they didn't get the Lakers in the Finals. The Kings were too good of a team that year and the next. But I would like to point out that Iverson had better defensive help than LeBron did in the early stages of his prime. Anyone who has Ratliff as their back-up has great defensive help.

[1987_Lakers]

LOL... I didn't know you were a troll too.

What else is there to do when you are responding to such a troll topic? 3ball admitted to calling Anthony Davis a non impact player just like Kareem just because Kareem was a threat to MJ in the GOAT debate, now he uses AD's talent against LeBron. It's double standards.

[3ball]

MJ was more player-dependent and needed Pippen beyond any player ever needed anyone else. You don’t even know the half of it, tresbolas.

Scottie Pippen wasn’t just thought of as the second best player in the league in 1996…

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-2.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-1.png

...but some people thought that Scottie Pippen was actually the best player on the Bulls in 1996 - even better than Michael Jordan.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-4.pnghttps://s7.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-9.png

Over a 20-year period, articles like that will pop up

Means nothing and no one ever thought pippen was the #2 player or compared to Jordan

The reality is that lebron needed 2 stars to win (2 pippen's), or a sidekick to outscore him (AD).. So lebron needed a lot more help than MJ

It's funny because I hope Giannis stays in Milwaukee and wins, which would diminish lebron's chosen career path (team-hopping)

[dankok8]

What else is there to do when you are responding to such a troll topic? 3ball admitted to calling Anthony Davis a non impact player just like Kareem just because Kareem was a threat to MJ in the GOAT debate, now he uses AD's talent against LeBron. It's double standards.

I don't know why he's set on debating Jordan vs. Lebron over and over again especially with a bunch of kids who never watched Jordan.

[MadDog]

LeBron didn't make Wade "better". That's a myth. Wade was a superstar for a handful of years beforehand. Led his team to a championship and had one of the BEST FINALS ever. LeBron made Wade worse because he refused to play off the ball (completely useless in the 2011 finals :oldlol:). Wade "took one for the team" and sacrificed his indivdual play, which in-turn let LeBron get numbers.

[Shooter]

LeBron didn't make Wade "better". That's a myth. Wade was a superstar for a handful of years beforehand. Led his team to a championship and had one of the BEST FINALS ever. LeBron made Wade worse because he refused to play off the ball (completely useless in the 2011 finals :oldlol:). Wade "took one for the team" and sacrificed his indivdual play, which in-turn let LeBron get numbers.

Wade from 2007 to 2010 (4 years) had zero 1st round wins. Never got out of the 1st round

*LeBron arrives in 2011
2011-2014 (4 years) = 4 straight Finals

Got it? Recap:

Wade w/o LBJ (4 years, 2007-2010) = Zero 1st round wins
Wade w/ LBJ (4 years, 2011-2014) - 4x Finals appearances

I know people are new to ball so I am here to help. Stick around and learn more, you have a lot to learn rook :cheers: You're welcome

[3ball]

LeBron didn't make Wade "better". That's a myth. Wade was a superstar for a handful of years beforehand. Led his team to a championship and had one of the BEST FINALS ever. LeBron made Wade worse because he refused to play off the ball (completely useless in the 2011 finals :oldlol:). Wade "took one for the team" and sacrificed his indivdual play, which in-turn let LeBron get numbers.

Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014 before lebron

Love was 2nd team all nba in 14'

AD was already all-nba before lebron... Ditto Bosh

everyone was already a star before lebron and their stats didn't improve alongside him

Otoh, Jordan's teammates grew from single-digit rookies to korver all-stars by 94' (pippen/grant/bj)... guys actually improved on jordan's watch.

Ultimately, lebron needed 2 stars to win (2 pippen's), or a sidekick to outscore him (AD).. So lebron needed a lot more help than MJ

It's funny because I hope Giannis stays in Milwaukee and wins, which would diminish lebron's chosen career path (team-hopping)

[red1]

Great.




Now he has 4 finals MVPs.

[tpols]

In terms of efficiency, the real Iverson was MJ during his 2nd 3 peat.

41.5% in the 96 Finals
42.7% in the 98 Finals

MJ took the tough shots for his teams. And played in an absurdly violent era.

He is the GOAT.

You need to accept it.

[1987_Lakers]

MJ took the tough shots for his teams. And played in an absurdly violent era.

He is the GOAT.

You need to accept it.

Who MJ was playing against in '98...
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/48/21/68/482168aee720e600f58d15b719bf25aa.jpg
https://www.nba.com/suns/sites/suns/files/jordanhornacek_777x442.jpg?w=756&h=430

Insanely tough I tell ya, meanwhile LeBron was taking down 73 win teams in the Finals.

[pandiani17]

I mean I think the 2001 76ers would have lost to the Kings if they didn't get the Lakers in the Finals. The Kings were too good of a team that year and the next. But I would like to point out that Iverson had better defensive help than LeBron did in the early stages of his prime. Anyone who has Ratliff as their back-up has great defensive help.

The 2001 would have played either against the Spurs or the Kings in the finals (the Spurs reached the WCF and were a very good team with Duncan, past-his-prime D-Rob and Derek Anderson, among others. The Kings were not the finished article of the following season). I think they would have played the Spurs. And yes, they would have lost against whoever came out of the West, the difference between the conferences was inmense back then.

[pandiani17]

They made lebron better, just like he did them

So the argument that Lebron "makes teammates better" is false because teammates didn't see statistical growth on lebron's watch - he simply teamed up so both parties can win rings..

his skillset infact imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, so he needs ready-made stars (team-hopping)..

Otoh, Jordan could play and shoot off-ball, so teammates grew from single-digit rookies to korver all-stars by 94'.. guys actually improved on his watch.

Stop crying.

[tpols]

Who MJ was playing against in '98...
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/48/21/68/482168aee720e600f58d15b719bf25aa.jpg
https://www.nba.com/suns/sites/suns/files/jordanhornacek_777x442.jpg?w=756&h=430

Insanely tough I tell ya, meanwhile LeBron was taking down 73 win teams in the Finals.

You're a clown. That's all the words I'm gonna type.

You're also a racist based on this post.

[3ball]

Who MJ was playing against in '98...
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/48/21/68/482168aee720e600f58d15b719bf25aa.jpg
https://www.nba.com/suns/sites/suns/files/jordanhornacek_777x442.jpg?w=756&h=430

Insanely tough I tell ya, meanwhile LeBron was taking down 73 win teams in the Finals.


That guy swept Shaq.. twice

And destroyed Duncan/Popovich in 5 games

Infact, he beat Hakeem that year too.. so he beat Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan to make the 98' Finals.. aka the most talent ever defeated to make a Finals

[8Ball]

2018 LeBron PER > any of Jordan's playoff PER.

32.2 > Any playoff PER Jordan.

2009 playoffs 37.4 PER > Anything Jordan could have ever done statistically.


LeBron's peak > Jordan's peak.
LeBron's longevity > Jordan's longevity.

[3ball]

Wade w/o LBJ (4 years, 2007-2010) = Zero 1st round wins
Wade w/ LBJ (4 years, 2011-2014) - 4x Finals appearances





Lebron w/o Wade (5 years, 2006-2010) = Zero titles.. 3-time 2nd Round loser.. 2x loser as favorite
Lebron w/ Wade (4 years, 2011-2014) = Two titles.. 2 FMVP


Wade elevated Lebron from perennial 2nd Round loser & 1 seed choker........ to b2b FMVP

[3ball]

2018 LeBron PER > any of Jordan's playoff PER.

32.2 > Any playoff PER Jordan.

2009 playoffs 37.4 PER > Anything Jordan could have ever done statistically.


LeBron's peak > Jordan's peak.
LeBron's longevity > Jordan's longevity.

That's 20 games and 1 stat out of 1000's of games

Jordan still has every other game and every other stat (better peak by far) and the superior career average in everything

[Shooter]

Who MJ was playing against in '98...
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/48/21/68/482168aee720e600f58d15b719bf25aa.jpg
https://www.nba.com/suns/sites/suns/files/jordanhornacek_777x442.jpg?w=756&h=430

Insanely tough I tell ya, meanwhile LeBron was taking down 73 win teams in the Finals.

The saddest part is some people think the Jazz team was his toughest competition :roll::roll:

Magic battling Bird
Russell battling Wilt
LeBron battling Duncan/Curry
Jordan battling...John Starks? :lol

[MadDog]

Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014 before lebron

Love was 2nd team all nba in 14'

AD was already all-nba before lebron... Ditto Bosh

everyone was already a star before lebron and their stats didn't improve alongside him

Otoh, Jordan's teammates grew from single-digit rookies to korver all-stars by 94' (pippen/grant/bj)... guys actually improved on jordan's watch.

Ultimately, lebron needed 2 stars to win (2 pippen's), or a sidekick to outscore him (AD).. So lebron needed a lot more help than MJ

It's funny because I hope Giannis stays in Milwaukee and wins, which would diminish lebron's chosen career path (team-hopping)

Right, but you said that LeBron made Wade "better" in your OP. He didn't, its the other way around. Wade was already a champion and proved it on the biggest stage. Its EXACTLY why LeBron begged Wade to teamup. :confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

You're a clown. That's all the words I'm gonna type.

You're also a racist based on this post.

What a meltdown.

[3ball]

Lebron w/o Wade (5 years, 2006-2010) = Zero titles.. 3-time 2nd Round loser.. 2x loser as favorite
Lebron w/ Wade (4 years, 2011-2014) = Two titles.. 2 FMVP


Wade elevated Lebron from perennial 2nd Round loser & 1 seed choker........ to b2b FMVP

Shooter?

You breathin bud?

[8Ball]

That's 20 games and 1 stat out of 1000's of games

Jordan still has every other game and every other stat (better peak by far) and the superior career average in everything

LeBron has more rebounds and assists and more All-NBA 1st teams.

Higher peak + longer peak.

[8Ball]

Shooter?

You breathin bud?

No pippen = swept 3 times in a row in the first round.

1-9

[3ball]

LeBron has more rebounds and assists and more All-NBA 1st teams.

Higher peak + longer peak.

Lebron has more all-nba seasons

But Jordan's all-nba seasons were accompanied by top 5 dpoy and scoring title

Whereas lebron hasn't been all-defense in 7 years and his scoring is barely top 15

all-nba, no all-defense = 4 rings...... all-nba, dpoy candidate and scoring champ = 6/6

So MJ was just a lot better....

[Shooter]

Shooter?

You breathin bud?

LeBron had the biggest burden in 2012 when he needed to average 30-10-5 on 50% for the entire playoffs in order to win. Thanks for all the help :lol

This has only happened one other time in league history. (Averaging 30-10-5 on 50% for entire playoffs en route to chip)

2013 Wade was one of the top 5 lowest ppg #2 options for a championship team in NBA history. Wade's 2013 Playoff ppg was lower than ANY of Pippen's playoff ppgz. Wade's 2013 playoff PPGZ was lower than Pippens' WORST Championship run (91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98).

You're making this easy :lol Try again my son

[AussieSteve]

Over a 20-year period, articles like that will pop up

Means nothing and no one ever thought pippen was the #2 player or compared to Jordan

The reality is that lebron needed 2 stars to win (2 pippen's), or a sidekick to outscore him (AD).. So lebron needed a lot more help than MJ

It's funny because I hope Giannis stays in Milwaukee and wins, which would diminish lebron's chosen career path (team-hopping)

What do you mean "articles like that will pop up"? Are you saying that it's not uncommon for people to write articles and make statements about Brandon Ingram level players being the best player in the world?

[Shooter]

What do you mean "articles like that will pop up"? Are you saying that it's not uncommon for people to write articles and make statements about Brandon Ingram level players being the best player in the world?

:roll::roll:

[3ball]

.
Playoffs


14' Wade''.... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg







What do you mean "articles like that will pop up"?





2020 Playoffs

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-15-2020/VHu9ez.gif


outscoring a 2nd option is nothing compared to outscoring the #1 option (Wade/Kyrie) or the entire league (AD above).

it's standard to outscore the 2nd option, especially for a winning team (although pippen was outscored in the majority of series in his career including portland..... and 40% of series as a Bull)

Ultimately, lebron needed 2 stars to win (2 pippen's), or a sidekick to outscore the whole league (AD)... btw, those 2 stars also outscored him (11' Wade), or matched him (16' Kyrie), whereas MJ averaged 10-30 more than pippen in every series





What do you mean "articles like that will pop up"?

Are you saying that it's not uncommon for people to write articles and make statements about Brandon Ingram level players being the best player in the world?



When they've been carried to a 3-peat then absolutely - there will be haters of that success who write crazy shit..

And you wish pippen was as good as Ingram.. if only MJ had real scoring help and someone to iso/close and also space the floor

Ultimately, lebron needed 2 stars to win (2 pippen's), or a sidekick to outscore the entire league (AD)

[RRR3]

You're a clown. That's all the words I'm gonna type.

You're also a racist based on this post.
Ol’ Klans robes Ttrolls calling anyone a racist is hilarious.

[RRR3]

3ball has been on a nonstop meltdown ever since LeBron passed his hero as the GOAT.

[3ball]

3ball has been on a nonstop meltdown ever since LeBron passed his hero as the GOAT.



2020 Playoffs

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-15-2020/VHu9ez.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

2020 Playoffs

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-15-2020/VHu9ez.gif
https://imageproxy.themaven.net/https%3A%2F%2Fimages.saymedia-content.com%2F.image%2FMTc1NTAxMDIyNjM3MDczNTI3%2F mvpvotes0918.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkGE71tU4AEzEG9?format=jpg&name=small

https://media1.tenor.com/images/aa5fc26763be8893953b44f8bf0f799e/tenor.gif

[StrongLurk]

OP should lay off the Kobe hate in this thread. He is REALLY making me think that Kobe's 00-02 rings are COMPLETELY meaningless.

[light]

Here’s Magic Johnson in The Last Dance saying the same thing about MJ:

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Magic-MJ-Help.gif

The right horses for MJ was Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman and this guy:

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Pip-Top-21.png

A major difference is that LeBron and Iverson didn’t need another legend to play alongside them just to get past the 2nd round.

[jlip]

This thread is basically a LeBron version of the old anti-MJ charge from years ago which asserted that without Pippen, MJ is nothing more than a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.

[red1]

4 finals MVPs


We won. Top 2 all-time - right now.

[light]

They made lebron better, just like he did them

So the argument that Lebron "makes teammates better" is false because teammates didn't see statistical growth on lebron's watch - he simply teamed up so both parties can win rings..

his skillset infact imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, so he needs ready-made stars (team-hopping)..

You're overlooking the most important details.

LeBron went to the finals in 2007 without "ready-made stars" but he was beaten by a Spurs team with 3 hall of famers.

The 2010 San Antonio Spurs had Duncan, Parker, Ginobili.
The 2010 Boston Celtics had KG, Pierce, Allen and Rondo (who was an All-Star at the time).
The 2010 Lakers had Kobe, Gasol and Odom (who was widely considered to be one of the most well-rounded talents in the NBA).

The state of the league predicated what personnel moves needed to be made in order to be competitive. You had to at least match the talent of those teams.

If all of those stars weren't already grouped together it would've been more like the 1990s and LeBron would not have needed to leave Cleveland - he would've won in 2007 if he went up against only Tim Duncan in the Finals, and not Tim Duncan plus Parker and Ginobili.

[AussieSteve]

When they've been carried to a 3-peat then absolutely - there will be haters of that success who write crazy shit..

And you wish pippen was as good as Ingram.. if only MJ had real scoring help and someone to iso/close and also space the floor


So everyone who thought Pip was arguably a top 2 player in the league back then was a jordan hater?

[TheGoatest]

Jordan's resumé until Pippen made him a winner: Tracy McGrady

And Iverson's resumé > Tracy McGrady's

[3ball]

So everyone who thought Pip was arguably a top 2 player in the league back then was a jordan hater?

No one thought that

[3ball]

Jordan's resumé until Pippen made him a winner: Tracy McGrady

And Iverson's resumé > Tracy McGrady's
Playoffs

20' AD.......... 28 ppg
20' Lebron... 27 ppg

11' Wade..... 25 ppg
11' Lebron... 24 ppg

16' Kyrie.'..... 25 ppg
16' Lebron... 25 ppg

88' Jordan... 36 ppg
88' Pippen'... 10 ppg

[TheGoatest]

The difference is that pippen averaged 8 ppg when MJ joined him, while Kyrie, Wade, and AD were getting 25+ as all-pros

Pippen's 8 ppg didn't help anything, while Wade, AD and Kyrie led lebron in scoring and literally carried the team

No, the difference is LeBron won multiple playoff series and went to the finals before Kyrie, Wade and AD. Whereas Jordan hadn't won a playoff series and had a 1-9 record in the playoffs before Pippen.

Not to mention the fact that LeBron won multiple championships without Kyrie, Wade and AD. Whereas Jordan hasn't won multiple playoff games without Pippen. Another difference.

[3ball]

No, the difference is LeBron won multiple playoff series and went to the finals before Kyrie, Wade and AD. Whereas Jordan hadn't won a playoff series and had a 1-9 record in the playoffs before Pippen.

Not to mention the fact that LeBron won multiple championships without Kyrie, Wade and AD. Whereas Jordan hasn't won multiple playoff games without Pippen. Another difference.

The 80's East required a super-team with many HOF's to win it, while Lebron played in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won

So lebron's losses in a 1-star team conference (as a massive favorite) are knocks on his career, while Jordan's 8 seed losses in a super-team conference as a rookie mean nothing





Jordan's resumé until Pippen made him a winner: Tracy McGrady



Playoffs

20' AD.......... 28 ppg
20' Lebron... 27 ppg

11' Wade..... 25 ppg
11' Lebron... 24 ppg

16' Kyrie.'..... 25 ppg
16' Lebron... 25 ppg

88' Jordan... 36 ppg
88' Pippen'... 10 ppg


So MJ carried Pippen, while lebron GOT carried by AD, Wade, Kyrie..

Lebron and Magic are "pippen's", aka they need elite 1st option scorers to pass to like mj, Kareem, AD, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love

[SouBeachTalents]

Playoffs

20' AD.......... 28 ppg
20' Lebron... 27 ppg

11' Wade..... 25 ppg
11' Lebron... 24 ppg

16' Kyrie.'..... 25 ppg
16' Lebron... 25 ppg

88' Jordan... 36 ppg
88' Pippen'... 10 ppg
This dude sucks at math

[3ball]

This dude sucks at math

It's clear that MJ carried Pippen, while lebron GOT carried by AD, Wade, Kyrie..

Lebron and Magic are "pippen's", aka they need elite 1st option scorers to pass to like mj, kareem, worthy, AD, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love

Magic and lebron are simple bird feeders that lack takeover scoring ability themselves

[3ball]

It's clear that MJ carried Pippen, while lebron GOT carried by AD, Wade, Kyrie..

Lebron and Magic are "pippen's", aka they need elite 1st option scorers to pass to like mj, kareem, worthy, AD, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love

Magic and lebron are simple bird feeders that lack takeover scoring ability themselves

Anyone?

Cat got your tongue SouthBeach fraud?

[TheGoatest]

The 80's East required a super-team with many HOF's to win it, while Lebron played in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won

So lebron's losses in a 1-star team conference (as a massive favorite) are knocks on his career, while Jordan's 8 seed losses in a super-team conference as a rookie mean nothing



Playoffs

20' AD.......... 28 ppg
20' Lebron... 27 ppg

11' Wade..... 25 ppg
11' Lebron... 24 ppg

16' Kyrie.'..... 25 ppg
16' Lebron... 25 ppg

88' Jordan... 36 ppg
88' Pippen'... 10 ppg


So MJ carried Pippen, while lebron GOT carried by AD, Wade, Kyrie..

Lebron and Magic are "pippen's", aka they need elite 1st option scorers to pass to like mj, Kareem, AD, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love

:roll: 0 all-star "super teams" Milwaukee Bucks and Indiana Pacers managed to win more games than Jordan's Bulls in 1986-87 and get a better seeding spot. And this was when Jordan had a teammate who averaged 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds and 3.6 assists while playing all 82 games.

Playoffs:

https://crownthegoat.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/img_9246.png?w=1024

https://images2.imagebam.com/64/a5/2b/4a5dae1359607424.png

[SouBeachTalents]

It's clear that MJ carried Pippen, while lebron GOT carried by AD, Wade, Kyrie..

Lebron and Magic are "pippen's", aka they need elite 1st option scorers to pass to like mj, Kareem, AD, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love
First off, you're a dishonest fakkit. Intentionally posting incorrect scoring numbers, literally doing a 180 on your Kareem/Magic stance in less than a year, admitting you flipped it because you went from hating on Kareem to hating on LeBron, you're more full of shit than a politician.

And yes, the guy who led the Heat & Cavs in virtually every category, then finished higher in AD in MVP voting AND won unanimous FMVP was carried because he scored literally 2 less points over a 20+ game sample size.

The greatest irony is you're constantly hyping up Kobe as 2nd GOAT, so if LeBron got "carried" getting outscored by one basket while still winning FMVP, I'd hate to see what you'd think of Kobe's first 3 rings. There's absolutely no way you can defend that without completely contradicting yourself :lol

[3ball]

First off, you're a dishonest fakkit. Intentionally posting incorrect scoring numbers, literally doing a 180 on your Kareem/Magic stance in less than a year, admitting you flipped it because you went from hating on Kareem to hating on LeBron, you're more full of shit than a politician.

And yes, the guy who led the Heat & Cavs in virtually every category, then finished higher in AD in MVP voting AND won unanimous FMVP was carried because he scored literally 2 less points over a 20+ game sample size.



20 games sample that decided the title + regular season = 80+ games

AD led the Lakers in most categories all year and led the entire league in playoff scoring (#1 in playoff scoring)





The greatest irony is you're constantly hyping up Kobe as 2nd GOAT, so if LeBron got "carried" getting outscored by one basket while still winning FMVP, I'd hate to see what you'd think of Kobe's first 3 rings. There's absolutely no way you can defend that without completely contradicting yourself :lol



Kobe and Shaq have asterisks next to those rings, but Kobe's 2 rings with just Bosh > lebron's 4 with teammates that outscored him

(Edit: I mean Pau, not Bosh)

You forget that lebron teamed up with Kobe/Pau 2 (Wade/Bosh) and only went 2/4

[3ball]

Playoffs

14' Wade''.... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg






^^^ did 93' Pippen have the lowest sidekick BPM, PER and WS/48 to ever win a ring???.... :whatever:... (pippen's BPM was 2.0 in 93' playoffs)

#carried... #worsethan14wade

[Airupthere]

Lebron has collected a really long and solid list of team mates throughhout his career. Definitely needed more than one pip.

[AirBonner]

LeBron won with various casts is a true testament to his greatness. Meanwhile MJ was shackled to Pippen. No Pippen no chip n’

[Airupthere]

LeBron won with various casts is a true testament to his greatness. Meanwhile MJ was shackled to Pippen. No Pippen no chip n’

Handpicked casts designed to be superteams lol. He moves from team to team instead facing the odss with one team. :oldlol:

[TheGoatest]

LeBron won with various casts is a true testament to his greatness. Meanwhile MJ was shackled to Pippen. No Pippen no chip n’

This. Tom Brady getting praised to high heavens because he switched teams and won while his old team missed the playoffs. LeBron did this three times, and each time he won with his new team with a supporting cast that missed the playoffs as soon as he left.

Meanwhile when Jordan left the Bulls in 1993-94, they won 55 games. :oldlol: Talk about playing on a stacked team.

[Airupthere]

This. Tom Brady getting praised to high heavens because he switched teams and won while his old team missed the playoffs. LeBron did this three times, and each time he won with his new team with a supporting cast that missed the playoffs as soon as he left.

Meanwhile when Jordan left the Bulls in 1993-94, they won 55 games. :oldlol: Talk about playing on a stacked team.

Brady was basically kicked out. Otherwise he would have stayed so dont tarnish the man’s reputation by putting him in the same sentence as Lebron. Lebron calls people up and recruits to make superteams. That does not deserve the same respect, in the field of competition to someone building a team to competitiveness. Lebron is artificially building teams as he does his stats.

[Lebron23]

No Pip No Chip

[TheGoatest]

No Pip No Chip

No Pip = First round exit

[3ball]

LeBron won with various casts





Lebron mostly lost with every type of cast (1 seeds, favorites) and to every type of opponent (underdog, 1-star team), and in every way (goat choke, record loss, sweeps)

He's literally good at losing.. he can do it any way you like

[tpols]

Jason Kidd made the Finals TWICE... not once like Lebron. And he arguably had less help. Kidd and the Nets were a hair away from beating the 2004 Pistons which took down the Laker super team. That's how good J-Kidd was... he might've been better than LeBron no lie. I shudder to think what he would do with weapons like AD, Wade, Kyrie, and Bosh. His only weakness was scoring... he did everything else at an elite level and all four of those guys were elite scorers so they'd be perfect complimentary pieces. As would Love now that I think about it. He'd remain the rugged rebounding champ with Kidd instead of skinny depressed (admittedly) spot up shooter he was in Cleveland.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan's resume without Pippen = Tracy McGrady

[SouBeachTalents]

Jason Kidd made the Finals TWICE... not once like Lebron. And he arguably had less help. Kidd and the Nets were a hair away from beating the 2004 Pistons which took down the Laker super team. That's how good J-Kidd was... he might've been better than LeBron no lie. I shudder to think what he would do with weapons like AD, Wade, Kyrie, and Bosh. His only weakness was scoring... he did everything else at an elite level and all four of those guys were elite scorers so they'd be perfect complimentary pieces. As would Love now that I think about it. He'd remain the rugged rebounding champ with Kidd instead of skinny depressed (admittedly) spot up shooter he was in Cleveland.
:roll: QAnon level, I don't even think 3ball would stoop to saying that

[AirBonner]

Jordan's resume without Pippen = Tracy McGrady

Quoted for reference purposes

[tpols]

:roll: QAnon level, I don't even think 3ball would stoop to saying that

I've seen 3Ball repeatedly say that Iverson, Dwight and Kidd all made the finals once without star help, but it needs to be known that Jason Kidd did it twice. And he did it immediately, first year with a lottery team. When Lebron joins a lottery team, like the 2004 Cavs or the 2019 Lakers he can't even make the playoffs. Kidd can take you to the Finals. And we all know he eventually ring'ed once he played with a true superstar. (Dirk)

[Gohan]

So basically 3ball is calling lebron a top 10 player of all time before he even won a ring. Damn lebron must be good can 01 sixers get him?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jason Kidd made the Finals TWICE... not once like Lebron. And he arguably had less help. Kidd and the Nets were a hair away from beating the 2004 Pistons which took down the Laker super team. That's how good J-Kidd was... he might've been better than LeBron no lie. I shudder to think what he would do with weapons like AD, Wade, Kyrie, and Bosh. His only weakness was scoring... he did everything else at an elite level and all four of those guys were elite scorers so they'd be perfect complimentary pieces. As would Love now that I think about it. He'd remain the rugged rebounding champ with Kidd instead of skinny depressed (admittedly) spot up shooter he was in Cleveland.

Don't you get tired of being a salty ass hater? :oldlol: You're shooting @ 3ball-level pace

Kidd made the finals in a garbage conference, worse than Bron's era even. Not only that but year in and out he's had more impact than every perimeter player since, like, 2009.

[NBAGOAT]

tpols still harping about kevin love's dropoff yet when harden drops off from 34ppg to 24ppg and isnt anywhere near the mvp conversation though he still has the talent(unlike love by year 2-3), he's "correctly" deferring to kd and kyrie lol.

[light]

Someone needs to do a count, but LeBron has probably made more people champions than any other player in history.

The Bulls always had a set group of core people throughout their entire run, so for Jordan that number is going to be limited. Same with Bill Russell.

But for LeBron that number might go into the 100s because he did it in three cities, always with new people - a fluctuating cast of various characters - so you'd have to include all of the different trainers, doctors, equipment managers, executives, and all of the employees that interacted directly with the players who also received rings, on top of the different teammates and different coaching staffs and different ownership groups.

[RRR3]

Jason Kidd made the Finals TWICE... not once like Lebron. And he arguably had less help. Kidd and the Nets were a hair away from beating the 2004 Pistons which took down the Laker super team. That's how good J-Kidd was... he might've been better than LeBron no lie. I shudder to think what he would do with weapons like AD, Wade, Kyrie, and Bosh. His only weakness was scoring... he did everything else at an elite level and all four of those guys were elite scorers so they'd be perfect complimentary pieces. As would Love now that I think about it. He'd remain the rugged rebounding champ with Kidd instead of skinny depressed (admittedly) spot up shooter he was in Cleveland.
Well no we have proof that Tpols is retarded. Not that we all didn’t suspect already.

[And1AllDay]

https://i.postimg.cc/KjvNn2fH/Nothing_Finer.png


https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjHCWdU7F4hkcudy/giphy.gif

[2much_knowledge]

I understand what this thread is trying to say. Most on here can't

Iverson = Roy, scoring champ, mvp, allstar mvp and a run to the finals with a sub par team

Pre Miami bron = Roy, scoring champ, mvp, allstar mvp and a run to the finals with a sub par team

Difference is 2001 east was tough with Toronto and Milwaukee

2007 East was a cakewalk. Pistons w/o Ben wallace are not the same pistons

[Gohan]

That 2001 Toronto team was hella underrated

[2much_knowledge]

That 2001 Toronto team was hella underrated

Yup, that was my team at the moment and that series hurt like a m.f. I remember wanting Dell to take the last shot

[Gohan]

Yup, that was my team at the moment and that series hurt like a m.f. I remember wanting Dell to take the last shot

Vince got a pretty good look, and he got Aaron on the pump fake. Yea dell was the best shooter on the team in my opinion though

[tpols]

Kidd made the finals in a garbage conference

So did LeBron. The only team he had to beat was the Pistons to get there and that's who Kidd regularly beat as well. (Detroit cut their teeth on the Nets... they used to get swept and owned by them)

Then when he made it to the Finals, Kidd took super peak Duncan Spurs to 6, while LeBron and the Cavs got swept by the Spurs and embarrassed.

Mid 2000s east was just as bad as early 2000s east. Statistical fact. Only in 2008 and 2010 was it decently strong because of the Celtics. 2009 another down year because Garnett got hurt and missed the playoffs. Kidd did it twice, Bron could only do it once before he started absurdly stacking the deck.

[aj1987]

So did LeBron. The only team he had to beat was the Pistons to get there and that's who Kidd regularly beat as well. (Detroit cut their teeth on the Nets... they used to get swept and owned by them)

Then when he made it to the Finals, Kidd took super peak Duncan Spurs to 6, while LeBron and the Cavs got swept by the Spurs and embarrassed.

Mid 2000s east was just as bad as early 2000s east. Statistical fact. Only in 2008 and 2010 was it decently strong because of the Celtics. 2009 another down year because Garnett got hurt and missed the playoffs. Kidd did it twice, Bron could only do it once before he started absurdly stacking the deck.
Kobe was either in the lottery of getting humiliated in the first rounds without absurdly stacked teams. In fact, after 2 seasons of not having GOAT level stacked teams, dude bitched and moaned and demanded a trade. LeBron stuck with shit teams of 7 seasons.

What happened to Kidd after that '03 season, BTW? Did you forget the Nets getting VC and getting dusted by the Heat in the first round?

As for all your whining about LeBron, do you want to know what J-Kidd shot against the '04 Pistons? 28.4%. Let that sink in. Game 7, dude literally had ZERO points. Talk about embarrassing.

[tpols]

Kobe was either in the lottery of getting humiliated in the first rounds without absurdly stacked teams. In fact, after 2 seasons of not having GOAT level stacked teams, dude bitched and moaned and demanded a trade. LeBron stuck with shit teams of 7 seasons.

What happened to Kidd after that '03 season, BTW? Did you forget the Nets getting VC and getting dusted by the Heat in the first round?

As for all your whining about LeBron, do you want to know what J-Kidd shot against the '04 Pistons? 28.4%. Let that sink in. Game 7, dude literally had ZERO points. Talk about embarrassing.

The Nets never had an answer for Shaq. They went 1-12 against him from 2002 to 2006 in the playoffs. Shaq always owned us because our best centers were Jason Collins and Todd MacCulloch. Shaq owned a lot of guys but he really owned the Nets bad based on the mismatch.

[RRR3]

Ttarded is literally out here trying to argue Jason Friggin Kidd over a consensus top 3 player of all time. What a ****ing idiot :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So did LeBron. The only team he had to beat was the Pistons to get there and that's who Kidd regularly beat as well. (Detroit cut their teeth on the Nets... they used to get swept and owned by them)

But Lebron actually won, which ends the comparison. Kidd and his Nets only beat Detroit once in the playoffs, and that was pre Sheed / Larry Brown. Weird parallel you made and I'm not sure why you even thought it was worth mentioning.


Then when he made it to the Finals, Kidd took super peak Duncan Spurs to 6, while LeBron and the Cavs got swept by the Spurs and embarrassed.

Another strange comparison. The 07 Spurs aren't the 2003 Spurs either. The latter is a team widely known for being carried by Duncan.

The 07 iteration were actually spearheaded by a legit trio, hence Tony Parker winning FMVP.


Mid 2000s east was just as bad as early 2000s east. Statistical fact. Only in 2008 and 2010 was it decently strong because of the Celtics. 2009 another down year because Garnett got hurt and missed the playoffs. Kidd did it twice, Bron could only do it once before he started absurdly stacking the deck.

Boston and Orlando were better than every team not named the 04 and 05 Pistons. I mean, you could bring up Shaq/Wade but they beat the brakes off Jersey. :confusedshrug: That was with Carter too, so Kidd wasn't doing any sort of carrying :confusedshrug:

You're raving over Kidd losing back to back finals, but ignore the finals LeBron won. Makes sense. What about the 2014 appearance where Bron carried Wade and Bosh all postseason? Heat made the finals with dude scoring ~10 more than his sidekick. Better advanced stats across the board too. That count in your world?

Bottom line, we both know Kidd isn't in Bron's stratosphere so why are you playing pretend?

[RRR3]

But Lebron actually won, which ends the comparison. Kidd and his Nets only beat Detroit once in the playoffs, and that was pre Sheed / Larry Brown. Weird parallel you made and I'm not sure why you even thought it was worth mentioning.



Another strange comparison. The 07 Spurs aren't the 2003 Spurs either. The latter is a team widely known for being carried by Duncan.

The 07 iteration were actually spearheaded by a legit trio, hence Tony Parker winning FMVP.



Boston and Orlando were better than every team not named the 04 and 05 Pistons. I mean, you could bring up Shaq/Wade but they beat the brakes off Jersey. :confusedshrug: That was with Carter too, so Kidd wasn't doing any sort of carrying :confusedshrug:

You're raving over Kidd losing back to back finals, but ignore the finals LeBron won. Makes sense. What about the 2014 appearance where Bron carried Wade and Bosh all postseason? Heat made the finals with dude scoring ~10 more than his sidekick. Better advanced stats across the board too. That count in your world?

Bottom line, we both know Kidd isn't in Bron's stratosphere so why are you playing pretend?
Bro, the same reason for almost every post he makes on the NBA forum: he’s absolutely devastated LeBron is better than Kobe. That’s literally it.

[ShawkFactory]

Jason Kidd made the Finals TWICE... not once like Lebron. And he arguably had less help. Kidd and the Nets were a hair away from beating the 2004 Pistons which took down the Laker super team. That's how good J-Kidd was... he might've been better than LeBron no lie. I shudder to think what he would do with weapons like AD, Wade, Kyrie, and Bosh. His only weakness was scoring... he did everything else at an elite level and all four of those guys were elite scorers so they'd be perfect complimentary pieces. As would Love now that I think about it. He'd remain the rugged rebounding champ with Kidd instead of skinny depressed (admittedly) spot up shooter he was in Cleveland.
Sounds like something someone would say when they're lying.

[FireDavidKahn]

LeBron coming off a championship then being the MVP favorite the following year, IN YEAR 18, has got the haters in a straight jacket. Lmao

[light]

lol.

Jordan before Pippen was even worse than '01 Iverson and '07 LeBron.

https://s2.gifyu.com/images/No-Pip-No-Chip0a3a7c20bac92d2a.gif

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron won bronze medals twice for America in basketball in the Olympics. What a disgrace!:facepalm

[3ball]

https://imageproxy.themaven.net/https%3A%2F%2Fimages.saymedia-content.com%2F.image%2FMTc1NTAxMDIyNjM3MDczNTI3%2F mvpvotes0918.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkGE71tU4AEzEG9?format=jpg&name=small

https://media1.tenor.com/images/aa5fc26763be8893953b44f8bf0f799e/tenor.gif


Im gonna be honest

Why the **** do we care about MVP and FMVP when they're Rachel Nichols and Sam Amick's awards? They literally decide the awards

So whenever we say "lebron has 4 MVP's", we're just saying "Rachel Nichols thinks lebron was MVP 4 times"

What is that worth?.. zero.. nothing .... So only rings matter

[aj1987]

The Nets never had an answer for Shaq. They went 1-12 against him from 2002 to 2006 in the playoffs. Shaq always owned us because our best centers were Jason Collins and Todd MacCulloch. Shaq owned a lot of guys but he really owned the Nets bad based on the mismatch.

What the **** are you babbling about, dumbass?

Also, us? :roll: :roll:

[Spurs m8]

Im gonna be honest

Why the **** do we care about MVP and FMVP when they're Rachel Nichols and Sam Amick's awards? They literally decide the awards

So whenever we say "lebron has 4 MVP's", we're just saying "Rachel Nichols thinks lebron was MVP 4 times"

What is that worth?.. zero.. nothing .... So only rings matter

Exactly.

How many times can 3ball ether these stans?

[Smoke117]

It's honestly baffling how you can still spend so much time obsessing over LeBron when it's been 6 years when you started with all this nonsense. There is legitimately something off in your brain, bro. Well at least your endless Pippen threads have mostly started since the season is on...we all know they'll be back in full force once it's over, though. :oldlol:

[Shooter]

I'll just leave this here:

https://images2.imagebam.com/82/ef/71/52fc291370325034.png

LeGoat

[tpols]

What the **** are you babbling about, dumbass?

Also, us? :roll: :roll:

Yea us. Damn straight.

And were still bros despite our difference of opinion. Well always be bros.

[3ba11]

11-14' Wade'..... 5.5 BPM... 24.5 PER... 0.198 WS/48... 22/5/5 on 51%.. equal-scoring partner to LBJ
91-93' Pippen.... 5.3 BPM... 20.4 PER... 0.168 WS/48... 19/7/6 on 50%.. never got within 10 ppg of MJ

[SouBeachTalents]

Jason Kidd made the Finals TWICE... not once like Lebron. And he arguably had less help. Kidd and the Nets were a hair away from beating the 2004 Pistons which took down the Laker super team. That's how good J-Kidd was... he might've been better than LeBron no lie. I shudder to think what he would do with weapons like AD, Wade, Kyrie, and Bosh. His only weakness was scoring... he did everything else at an elite level and all four of those guys were elite scorers so they'd be perfect complimentary pieces. As would Love now that I think about it. He'd remain the rugged rebounding champ with Kidd instead of skinny depressed (admittedly) spot up shooter he was in Cleveland.
Lmao, this is the thread tpols said Kidd was better than LeBron

[TheCorporation]

https://images2.imagebam.com/82/ef/71/52fc291370325034.png

Anyone?

[TheCorporation]

Lmao, this is the thread tpols said Kidd was better than LeBron

Thurston has gone mad :lol

[3ba11]

Lmao, this is the thread tpols said Kidd was better than LeBron


Jimmy Butler led an injury-riddled cast to the Finals, while Kawhi won the East on his vacation, and Brook Lopez just beat Trae in the ECF..

And guys like Iverson, Dwight, and Kidd won the conference with weak teams - only Lebron's super-teams interrupted a trend of a weak conference - his entire resume is built on forming a super-team in a conference that weak teams were winning, aka he's a fraudster

[SouBeachTalents]

Jimmy Butler led an injury-riddled cast to the Finals, while Kawhi won the East on his vacation, and Brook Lopez just beat Trae in the ECF..

And guys like Iverson, Dwight, and Kidd won the conference with weak teams - only Lebron's super-teams interrupted a trend of a weak conference
The Heat were perfectly healthy heading into the Finals, Kawhi had to have the series of his life just to get out of the 2nd round in 2019, and your last point is too retarded to even provide comment.

If it was so easy to win the East, why didn't Giannis do it last year, or Durant this season?

[8Ball]

In terms of efficiency, the real Iverson was MJ during his 2nd 3 peat.

41.5% in the 96 Finals
42.7% in the 98 Finals

[3ba11]

In terms of efficiency, the real Iverson was MJ during his 2nd 3 peat.

41.5% in the 96 Finals
42.7% in the 98 Finals


Jordan averaged 12 and 19 ppg more than his sidekick, who averaged 15.7 on 34% - that's the worst sidekick performance ever and only Jordan could win with it (twice).

Otoh, Lebron always has an equal-scoring partner when he wins a Finals (teammates are within 2-5 points), so his burden is a lot less, while his less effective style doesn't command double-teams.


Career Finals

Lebron'.... 28 on 49%
Kyrie....... 28 on 47%

Jordan..... 34 on 49%
Pippen..... 19 on 42%

[3ba11]

If it was so easy to win the East, why didn't Giannis do it last year, or Durant this season?





Jimmy upset Giannis the same way Dwight upset Lebron in 2009... Dwight's Magic were one of the 5 biggest underdogs to ever win a series.

So Giannis was a failure just like Lebron, but Giannis isn't giving up - he isn't going to team-hop - he's going to learn to WIN (organic).

And if he learns to win (organic), he'll be superior to Lebron/KD in the all-time rankings... by virtue of learning to win (organic).

[3ba11]

bump

[3ba11]

Lots of guys would go 2/4 with Wade/Bosh or 1/3 with Kyrie/Love, so Lebron didn't win with anything that others couldn't, whereas MJ won 6 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg - no one else did that more than twice.

So MJ won with what others couldn't and Lebron didn't... :confusedshrug:

[Gohan]

You trying to say lebron was ever on iversons level makes you lose credibility. Iverson was a jauggernaut

[3ba11]

You trying to say lebron was ever on iversons level makes you lose credibility. Iverson was a jauggernaut


If you were a really good player in the 2000's East, you probably won the conference with a weak cast, aka Kidd, Iverson, Dwight, Lebron

The 00's East is the only conference in history that was won by a bunch of 1-star teams, yet that's the conference that Lebron formed super-teams in - that's the definition of stacking the deck.

[aj1987]

Yea us. Damn straight.

And were still bros despite our difference of opinion. Well always be bros.

I honestly do not disagree with the bolded. You live near Fords in NJ, right?

[ELITEpower23]

:roll: 0 all-star "super teams" Milwaukee Bucks and Indiana Pacers managed to win more games than Jordan's Bulls in 1986-87 and get a better seeding spot. And this was when Jordan had a teammate who averaged 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds and 3.6 assists while playing all 82 games.

Playoffs:

https://crownthegoat.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/img_9246.png?w=1024

https://images2.imagebam.com/64/a5/2b/4a5dae1359607424.png

Shut it down