What's better - outscoring an opposing 2nd option like Pippen did, or...

[3ball]

outscoring the entire league like AD (2020 Playoff scoring leader)

or vastly outscoring 1st options like 16' Kyrie and 11' Wade

outscoring 1st options or the league > outscoring 2nd options

(outscoring 2nd options is common for winning teams/brands on the championship level when strategy edges matter most, particularly for role players..

pippen was still outscored in nearly 40% of his series overall as a Bull, and over 50% overall when we include houston and portland years)

[Shooter]

Birdfed

AD was birdfed. I hear that before somewhere...Hmm, who said that?

[3ball]

Birdfed

AD was birdfed. I hear that before somewhere...Hmm, who said that?

We all grow as the years progress

Bird-fed is an old view... Now I realize that bird-fed is infact the most is important skill

Because birdfed is closing possessions favorably, which "pippen's" like magic, lebron and Giannis need... they need closers to pass the because they themselves lack the skillset (shooting touch and footwork) to finish possessions by starting off-ball and catching-finishing quickly / iso'ing quickly

So they need closers to pass to like Kareem, jordan, AD, Wade or Kyrie

[Shooter]

We all grow as the years progress

Bird-fed is an old view... Now I realize that bird-fed is infact the most is important skill

Because birdfed is closing possessions favorably, which "pippen's" like magic, lebron and Giannis need... they need closers to pass the because they themselves lack the skillset (shooting touch and footwork) to finish possessions by starting off-ball and catching-finishing quickly / iso'ing quickly

So they need closers to pass to like Kareem, jordan, AD, Wade or Kyrie

https://www.udrop.com/cache/plugins/filepreviewer/68104/a0cae74771f669414438b418307e78f9e79d8a729838770d70 41776ce45dc323/1100x800_cropped.jpg

[3ball]

https://www.udrop.com/cache/plugins/filepreviewer/68104/a0cae74771f669414438b418307e78f9e79d8a729838770d70 41776ce45dc323/1100x800_cropped.jpg

Except mj was averaging more assists than pippen and therefore bird-feeding pippen more than vice versa

Jordan was primary bird-feeder and closer

Notice how the weak term "bird" only applies to the bird feeder, while the fed are now referred to as "closers".. that's the change in my thinking.. coffee is for CLOSERS

[light]

Except mj was averaging more assists than pippen and therefore bird-feeding pippen more than vice versa

Jordan was primary bird-feeder and closer

Notice how the weak term "bird" only applies to the bird feeder, while the fed are now referred to as "closers".. that's the change in my thinking.. coffee is for CLOSERS

You're not appreciating how much of an obstacle Jordan was to winning.

Unlike LeBron, Jordan's natural state as a basketball player was to play losing basketball.

Here's Pippen explaining:

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-Jordan-No-Chemistry.png

The undeniable truth:

Phil Jackson had to get Jordan to play more like LeBron in order to turn him into a winner.

[Axe]

You're not appreciating how much of an obstacle Jordan was to winning.

Unlike LeBron, Jordan's natural state as a basketball player was to play losing basketball.

Here's Pippen explaining:

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-Jordan-No-Chemistry.png

The undeniable truth:

Phil Jackson had to get Jordan to play more like LeBron in order to turn him into a winner.
It's not quite surprising why doug collins wasn't so successful at that

[3ball]

You're not appreciating how much of an obstacle Jordan was to winning.

Unlike LeBron, Jordan's natural state as a basketball player was to play losing basketball.

Here's Pippen explaining:

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-Jordan-No-Chemistry.png

The undeniable truth:

Phil Jackson had to get Jordan to play more like LeBron in order to turn him into a winner.

Lebron dominates the ball, so the triangle wouldn't be possible of MJ played like lebron

So you have no idea what you're talking about

Lebron dominates the ball.. that's his skillset... That's all he can do.. so he can't run the triangle or be coached by anyone

[dankok8]

Doug Collins couldn't win a ring with the Bulls because they kept running into one of the greatest teams ever and Jordan had no help. IMO it's clear that the Bulls starting to win had less to do with Phil Jackson and more with Pippen and Grant maturing and becoming themselves. Suddenly when the Pistons doubled and tripled him his teammates could do considerable damage. Jordan was Jordan... he always looked to score. He always had a different mentality than Lebron does. He had Kobe's mentality... the Mamba mentality. Not that one mentality is necessarily better or worse but nobody changed MJ.

And yes what the OP posted about Wade, Kyrie and Davis is true. The Lebroneers have to deal with it.

[3ball]

.
Playoffs


20' AD.......... 27.7 ppg (#1 in NBA)
20' Lebron... 27.6 ppg

11' Wade..... 24.5 ppg
11' Lebron... 23.7 ppg

16' Kyrie...'... 25.2 ppg
16' Lebron... 25.8 ppg


Lebron, Magic, and Giannis are "pippen's" - they need elite 1st options like Kareem, AD, Worthy, Wade, Kyrie, Love, or Bosh to pass the ball to and finish possessions (closers).

Ultimately, Lebron always needed 2 star teammates to win (2 elite first options), or a sidekick to outscore him and the whole league (AD).. otoh, pippen was only 1 star and not an elite 1st option, who never came within 10 points of Jordan's average in any series

[Axe]

Doug Collins couldn't win a ring with the Bulls because they kept running into one of the greatest teams ever and Jordan had no help. IMO it's clear that the Bulls starting to win had less to do with Phil Jackson and more with Pippen and Grant maturing and becoming themselves. Suddenly when the Pistons doubled and tripled him his teammates could do considerable damage. Jordan was Jordan... he always looked to score. He always had a different mentality than Lebron does. He had Kobe's mentality... the Mamba mentality. Not that one mentality is necessarily better or worse but nobody changed MJ.

And yes what the OP posted about Wade, Kyrie and Davis is true. The Lebroneers have to deal with it.
The pistons stopped dominating after the flagrant foul was implemented starting in the 1990-91 season.

[3ball]

The pistons stopped dominating after the flagrant foul was implemented starting in the 1990-91 season.

True, but Jordan was taking them 6 and 7 games with no help

So a better 2nd option - like the guy that was killing the Pistons at that time (worthy) - would've easily won

Or a guy like X-man averaged 25/9/4 against the 87' Lakers and 21-24 ppg from 87-90'... He was a good defender and destroyed pippen heads-up in 92' ECSF... He would've beaten the Pistons with mj in 89' and 90'

Pippen was just lucky to play alongside the goat in a 2-star vs 2-star 90's (where anyone would've won alongside the goat, aka worthy, X-man, etc)..

[sdot_thadon]

https://www.udrop.com/cache/plugins/filepreviewer/68104/a0cae74771f669414438b418307e78f9e79d8a729838770d70 41776ce45dc323/1100x800_cropped.jpg

Abandon ship!:oldlol:

[3ball]

Abandon ship!:oldlol:




bird-feeders, aka "pippen's" like Magic and Lebron need elite 1st option scorers to pass to and close possessions (closers) like MJ, Kareem, AD, Kyrie, or Wade

So the "bird-fed" are now the closers.. and what are bird-feeders other than robots that bring the ball up lol

[Round Mound]

.
Playoffs


20' AD.......... 27.7 ppg (#1 in NBA)
20' Lebron... 27.6 ppg

11' Wade..... 24.5 ppg
11' Lebron... 23.7 ppg

16' Kyrie...'... 25.2 ppg
16' Lebron... 25.8 ppg


Lebron, Magic, and Giannis are "pippen's" - they need elite 1st options like Kareem, AD, Worthy, Wade, Kyrie, Love, or Bosh to pass the ball to and finish possessions (closers).

Ultimately, Lebron always needed 2 star teammates to win (2 elite first options), or a sidekick to outscore him and the whole league (AD).. otoh, pippen was only 1 star and not an elite 1st option, who never came within 10 points of Jordan's average in any series

What about Magic in game 6 of the 1980 NBA Finals? As a rookie without Kareem he played multiple positions and had a 42-15-7 game? And he did it while being a ball dominator player.

[1987_Lakers]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years).

lol

[3ball]

What about Magic in game 6 of the 1980 NBA Finals? As a rookie without Kareem he played multiple positions and had a 42-15-7 game? And he did it while being a ball dominator player.

I'm pointing out the rule, and you're pointing out the exception that proves the rule

So thank you

Again.... Lebron, Magic, and Giannis are "pippen's" that need their "Jordan" to pass to...

aka elite 1st options and equal-scoring partners like Kareem, AD, Worthy, Wade, or Kyrie to finish possessions (closers)

[sdot_thadon]

bird-feeders, aka "pippen's" like Magic and Lebron need elite 1st option scorers to pass to and close possessions (closers) like MJ, Kareem, AD, Kyrie, or Wade

So the "bird-fed" are now the closers.. and what are bird-feeders other than robots that bring the ball up lol

Apparently ''bird feeders" are goat candidates....

[3ball]

Apparently ''bird feeders" are goat candidates....

Perhaps in the eyes of casual viewers, but knowledgeable ones are aware that Lebron, Magic, and Giannis are "pippen's" that need their "Jordan" to pass to...

aka elite 1st options and equal-scoring partners like Kareem, AD, Worthy or Wade to finish possessions (closers)

The goat "jordan" > the goat "pippen"

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This 'bird feeder' shit is dumb as hell :oldlol: Maybe if you took the time to make a SOUND argument, you wouldn't be seen as a complete flake.

Larry Bird is arguably the most SKILLED player ever. And his peak play is up there with anybodies. He 'birdfed' all of his teammates, still dropped buckets and was mad clutch.

[sdot_thadon]

This 'bird feeder' shit is dumb as hell :oldlol: Maybe if you took the time to make a SOUND argument, you wouldn't be seen as a complete flake.

Larry Bird is arguably the most SKILLED player ever. And his peak play is up there with anybodies. He 'birdfed' all of his teammates and still dropped buckets.

This shit right here.

[3ball]

This 'bird feeder' shit is dumb as hell :oldlol: Maybe if you took the time to make a SOUND argument, you wouldn't be seen as a complete flake.

Larry Bird is arguably the most SKILLED player ever. And his peak play is up there with anybodies. He 'birdfed' all of his teammates, still dropped buckets and was mad clutch.

I'm summing it up on a high level for you so you don't have to get in the weeds.. it's like i'm an analyst and you're the boss that will summarize in generalities to the laymen press

Because you know that everything I say is backed up by stats.. I post these stats all the time (like how magic/lebron had equal-scoring partners to pass to and finish possessions, aka closers)

We can compare lebron/magic's scoring to their sidekicks and see that the sidekicks frequently matched or outscored them... Or even the whole league (AD was #1 in playoff scoring for NBA).. that's how awesome the teammates of bird-feeders (pippen's) need to be

[3ball]

Apparently ''bird feeders" are goat candidates....

Lebron/Magic are "pippen's" and therefore need a "Jordan", aka elite 1st option to close possessions (closers) like Jordan, Kareem, AD.. equal-scoring partners

[Manny98]

https://www.udrop.com/cache/plugins/filepreviewer/68104/a0cae74771f669414438b418307e78f9e79d8a729838770d70 41776ce45dc323/1100x800_cropped.jpg
:roll:

[And1AllDay]

https://www.udrop.com/cache/plugins/filepreviewer/68104/a0cae74771f669414438b418307e78f9e79d8a729838770d70 41776ce45dc323/1100x800_cropped.jpg

abandon ship :oldlol:

[Vino24]

Op can’t wrap his head around how great LeBron is so he asks us for help

[72-10]

Considering how brilliant of shooters John Paxson, Craig Hodges and Trent Tucker were to stretch the defense (all top 50 shooters all-time unlike Pippen), Scottie was so lucky that sometimes he didn't even get the opposing team's 2nd best defender but 3rd giving him a cakewalk on offense with which to work.

[72-10]

So anyways, the Bulls had 4 shooters better than Scottie - MJ (6th in the world), Craig Hodges, John Paxson (both about 30th in the world), and Trent Tucker (about 50th in the world). Scottie had a mastered finger roll (2nd in the world at this), a bank shot from the elbow (the elbow is the easiest spot on the floor), and that was during the second threepeat not the first, and was one of the best finishers at and near the rim and one of the best at finishing after absorbing contact. Anyone trying to prop up Scottie's offense like it's some golden pillar of excellence is not going to get too far.

[72-10]

If all Scottie had was his offense he probably wouldn't make the Hall. He was able to use his length - his 7'4 wingspan - to his advantage more than any other non-center the game has seen. It helps immensely with the finger roll and finishing at the rim not to mention, to a lesser extent, shooting over the defense.

[3ball]

.
THREAD CLIFFS


Pippen was frequently outscored by 2nd options in earlier rounds where lesser opponents didn't have 3rd and 4th options to reduce 2nd option's stats... But the Finals opponents were deeper with 3rd and 4th scorers that took away from their 2nd option - the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had 3 offensive all-stars, while the 91' Lakers had 4 players average 17+ in the Finals.. Meanwhile, the 92' Blazers were the deepest of all the Finals opponents.

Nonetheless, Pippen was outplayed by the following #2 options:

- 90' ECF (Dumars)
- 92' ECSF (X-Man)
- 93' 1st Round... (Willis)
- 94' ECSF (Ewing)
- 95' 1st Round (L Johnson)
- 96' ECSF (Oakley)
- 96' ECF (Penny)
- 96' Finals (Payton)
- 97' 1st Round (J Howard)
- 97' Finals (Stockton)
- 98' ECF (Smits)
- 99' 1st Round (Kobe)


Ultimately, what's better - outscoring an opposing 2nd option like Pippen did, or outscoring the entire league like AD (2020 Playoff scoring leader), and outscoring opposing 1st options like 16' Kyrie did, or 11' and 13' Wade?... outscoring 1st options or the league > outscoring 2nd options.

[3ball]

.
THREAD CLIFFS


Rank in order of greatness


A) outscoring the opposing #2 option (pippen)

B) outscoring the opposing #1 option (11' Wade, 13' Wade, 16' Kyrie)

C) outscoring entire league (20' AD playoff scoring champ)


Pippen was frequently outscored by 2nd options in earlier rounds where lesser opponents didn't have 3rd and 4th options to reduce 2nd option's stats... But the Finals opponents were deeper with 3rd and 4th scorers that took away from their 2nd option - the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had 3 offensive all-stars, while the 91' Lakers had 4 players average 17+ in the Finals.. Meanwhile, the 92' Blazers were the deepest of all the Finals opponents.

Nonetheless, Pippen was outplayed by the following #2 options:

- 90' ECF (Dumars)
- 92' ECSF (X-Man)
- 93' 1st Round... (Willis)
- 94' ECSF (Ewing)
- 95' 1st Round (L Johnson)
- 96' ECSF (Oakley)
- 96' ECF (Penny)
- 96' Finals (Payton)
- 97' 1st Round (J Howard)
- 97' Finals (Stockton)
- 98' ECF (Smits)
- 99' 1st Round (Kobe)

[Manny98]

AD > Pippen > Kyrie and old Wade

[3ball]

AD > Pippen > Kyrie and old Wade


2012 Wade had higher PER, WS/48, and BPM than any version of Pippen, despite deferring to Lebron for the first time - so 12' Wade was far better than any version of Pippen.

Wade wasn't reduced to Pippen level until 2013, although 14' Wade still had higher PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring in the playoffs than 93' Pippen (so lebron got more production from his sidekick while trying to 3-peat than Jordan)

Btw, Kyrie has higher career BPM, PER, WS/48, scoring, assists and efficiency than Pippen, while also matching lebron's career Finals average (both lebron/kyrie average 28 ppg in the Finals, aka shared load)

[Manny98]

2012 Wade had higher PER, VORP, and BPM than any version of Pippen, [despite deferring to Lebron for the first time - so 12' Wade was far better than any version of Pippen.

Wade wasn't reduced to Pippen level until 2013, although 14' Wade still had higher PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring in the playoffs than 93' Pippen (so lebron got more production from his sidekick while trying to 3-peat than Jordan)

Btw, Kyrie has higher career BPM, PER, WS/48, scoring, assists and efficiency than Pippen, while also matching lebron's career Finals average (both lebron/kyrie average 28 ppg in the Finals, aka shared load)
In the playoffs 91 Pippen was better statistically than 12 Wade

[3ball]

In the playoffs 91 Pippen was better statistically than 12 Wade


1991 is peak Pippen stats, which doesn't compare to peak Wade, aka 2006 or 2011

Interestingly, it was lebron that played exactly like Pippen in the 11' Finals (18/7/6 no clutch) - so prime Wade found out how impossible it is to win with Pippen.. only Jordan could win with him

[Manny98]

1991 is peak Pippen stats, which doesn't compare to peak Wade, aka 2006 or 2011

Interestingly, it was lebron that played exactly like Pippen in the 11' Finals (18/7/6 no clutch) - so prime Wade found out how impossible it is to win with Pippen.. only Jordan could win with him
LeBron won 2 with a version of Wade that was worse than Peak Pippen. And got to the finals twice with a second option that's MUCH worse than Pippen (Larry Hughes)

[3ball]

LeBron won 2 with a version of Wade that was worse than Peak 91-92' Pippen. And got to the finals twice with a second option that's MUCH worse than Pippen (Larry Hughes)





So that means Jordan won 4 with less help than Lebron had with 12' and 13' Wade

aka you lose

And you're forgetting that 2012 Wade had a 26 PER - he had higher BPM, PER and WS/48 than any version of Pippen and was far superior despite deferring to Lebron increasingly as the season wore on