Jordan ‘I’m pretty sure LeBron will be G.O.A.T.’

[light]

https://s8.gifyu.com/images/LeBron-is-GOAT.png

In an interview with Cigar Aficionado Michael Jordan addressed the G.O.A.T. debate and admitted that support for him is eroding while support for LeBron is growing:


“It’s all relevated on who’s watching now. If you ask 20 years from now, I’m pretty sure LeBron may beat me, you know, based on who’s gonna be making the voting. I say that to say that I understand that it is what it is.”

“I’m pretty sure”
“I understand”
“it is what it is”

The final stage of grief is acceptance.

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[8Ball]

Lebron fans knew this back in 2009.

[Marchesk]

It’s all relevated on who’s watching now. If you ask 20 years from now, I’m pretty sure LeBron may beat me, you know, based on who’s gonna be making the voting. I say that to say that I understand that it is what it is.

The bolded part is key. Who will be making the voting 20 years from now? Mostly people who didn't watch Jordan play, but grew up with Lebron. There are a few examples on this forum.

[Kblaze8855]

That’s fairly clear. We were talking about that being inevitable on here before Lebron was even in the nba. It’s hard to hold a spot for long after people with an emotional attachment to you are the majority. It happens...Muhammad Ali types with such over the top personalities they grew bigger than the sport....maybe Gretzky who held like every record in hockey when he quit. The statistical difference between him and most other greats is ludicrous. He’s like their Wilt only in modern enough times to get full credit for it.

The nature of basketball doesn’t really allow for that anymore. Nobody is gonna score 47 a game for 10 years or have numbers as out of the norm as a Babe Ruth had compared to others in his day.

Numbers are gonna be pretty similar and all sports have shown a willingness to dismiss winning more as a reason for a higher ranking once the winning was long ago enough to disrespect it. I don’t even know who has the most World Series wins(Yogi Berra?).

Basketball greats statistically will be kinda similar with some having more of this but less of that. Same ballpark though.

Nobody is gonna have anything like....700 home runs when nobody else has 4. Basketball doesn’t allow for a Babe Ruth like difference in counting stats anymore so there is little to set any one person aside once you prove willing to ignore Russell’s 11 rings or Wilts insane numbers.

Now?

It comes down largely to emotion since talking basketball is so unacceptable(and it is...the rings argument certainly isn’t basketball).

Ive never personally seen a player better than Jordan and I suspect I never will...but both me and most of the players always cited will be old and ignored in 20 ish years.

22 year olds in 2038 won’t care what some ancient being like Gary Payton says any more than the ones now care what Gail Goodrich said about Wilt.

The question is best ever will always change in answer because of the natural bias of the current majority towards people they followed.

Lebron might well get it for a decade or two and then Adonis Mcmasco takes it for 25.

And it won’t have shit to do with if Adonis actually is better than Lebron, or Jordan, or anyone else.

It really never is.

[MadDog]

This topic was all created on a "maybe"


LeBron may beat me, you know, based on who’s gonna be making the voting."

https://media.tenor.com/images/295563f13ef9e4100492e4bbf4467890/tenor.gif

Maybe LeBron will match Jordan's 6 FMVPs too? We know "what ifs" "maybes" and the "runner up" are all part of LeBron's repertoire. :lol

[dankok8]

That’s fairly clear. We were talking about that being inevitable on here before Lebron was even in the nba. It’s hard to hold a spot for long after people with an emotional attachment to you are the majority. It happens...Muhammad Ali types with such over the top personalities they grew bigger than the sport....maybe Gretzky who held like every record in hockey when he quit. The statistical difference between him and most other greats is ludicrous. He’s like their Wilt only in modern enough times to get full credit for it.

The nature of basketball doesn’t really allow for that anymore. Nobody is gonna score 47 a game for 10 years or have numbers as out of the norm as a Babe Ruth had compared to others in his day.

Numbers are gonna be pretty similar and all sports have shown a willingness to dismiss winning more as a reason for a higher ranking once the winning was long ago enough to disrespect it. I don’t even know who has the most World Series wins(Yogi Berra?).

Basketball greats statistically will be kinda similar with some having more of this but less of that. Same ballpark though.

Nobody is gonna have anything like....700 home runs when nobody else has 4. Basketball doesn’t allow for a Babe Ruth like difference in counting stats anymore so there is little to set any one person aside once you prove willing to ignore Russell’s 11 rings or Wilts insane numbers.

Now?

It comes down largely to emotion since talking basketball is so unacceptable(and it is...the rings argument certainly isn’t basketball).

Ive never personally seen a player better than Jordan and I suspect I never will...but both me and most of the players always cited will be old and ignored in 20 ish years.

22 year olds in 2038 won’t care what some ancient being like Gary Payton says any more than the ones now care what Gail Goodrich said about Wilt.

The question is best ever will always change in answer because of the natural bias of the current majority towards people they followed.

Lebron might well get it for a decade or two and then Adonis Mcmasco takes it for 25.

And it won’t have shit to do with if Adonis actually is better than Lebron, or Jordan, or anyone else.

It really never is.

Great post. I've said this on another thread.

Since you mentioned Gretzky despite his insane records I've got a few buddies who watch a lot of NHL and they say the current era is way more athletic and physical (kind of opposite of the NBA) to the point where a 5'10'' 180 pound Gretzky simply wouldn't last for more than a few years from all the body checks. We'll never know but a lot of peeps are already transitioning from Gretzky onto Crosby and Ovechkin.

Similar situation in soccer where Pele and Maradona were considered GOAT's for the longest time but now Messi and to a lesser extent Cristiano are increasingly being picked over them. It's not that Messi is better than Pele but that most people simply haven't watched Pele. Myself included. Although I will say that soccer is a bit different because of the national pride component. To most Brazilians Pele will always be GOAT.

MJ will eventually feel ancient like Bill Russell does now. He's still relatively recent (retired the season before Lebron started) so there are still a lot of people who watched him. Plus he has the benefit unlike Russell that most of his career is televised and people can at least watch his best games. Most people don't bother though. I'd venture that 99% of NBA fans under the age of 30 haven't watched more than 10 full length games of Jordan. And even the ones that do don't understand the narratives. They see me and other people who tell that MJ was a larger than life player as bullshiters. He really was but you had to be there to see it. Just like I probably can't fathom the greatness of Wilt... In 20 years most ESPN guys will never have watched Jordan live so there's that.

[KennyPowers]

Reading comprehension sure isn't the op's thing. Neither is quoting.

Anyways, how many pairs of Air Jordans you n!ggas own? What number does lebron wear? What movie is lebron making?

LJ is the knockoff version of MJ. Almost 20 years of colluding while building 3 super teams to water down the league with a stacked deck and still have fewer titles.... Damn..... Enjoy your air Jordan collection, suckas.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6rNYCjwsmXg/VyMh50oLLII/AAAAAAAAAIc/EtfiiNl_QuUBtIfAlrzOgYTfgS0LbgIfQCHM/s1600/neevtech-blog-michael-jordan-air-jordan-dunk.jpg

https://briansmith.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/michael-jordan-1982.jpg

[Shooter]

Most Playoff Points
King James
7,491

Good luck to anyone ever wanting to dethrone King James. Until then, his GOAT lead is safe.

[dbugz]

Reading comprehension sure isn't the op's thing. Neither is quoting.

Anyways, how many pairs of Air Jordans you n!ggas own? What number does lebron wear? What movie is lebron making?

LJ is the knockoff version of MJ. Almost 20 years of colluding while building 3 super teams to water down the league with a stacked deck and still have fewer titles.... Damn..... Enjoy your air Jordan collection, suckas.


libron fans here are all delusional and dumb@sses :roll:

[Hey Yo]

Reading comprehension sure isn't the op's thing. Neither is quoting.

Anyways, how many pairs of Air Jordans you n!ggas own? What number does lebron wear? What movie is lebron making?

LJ is the knockoff version of MJ. Almost 20 years of colluding while building 3 super teams to water down the league with a stacked deck and still have fewer titles.... Damn..... Enjoy your air Jordan collection, suckas.



https://briansmith.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/michael-jordan-1982.jpg
Jordan yelling "Hey Mr. Worthy, thank you for making me a champion."

[3ball]

Jordan will always be the actual goat with the case that would prevail in court or under scrutiny.

But Lebron might indeed be the perceived goat in the future because no one really gives the issue the Master's level scrutiny it requires.

I do believe some of us have done that analysis on here though, and we conclude that MJ is goat, or Wilt - guys like Roundball and myself (and I believe Kblaze) say MJ is goat .. lazuruss (spelling) thought it was Wilt like people used to think before MJ ..

so one of us is right on who the actual goat is (mj or Wilt).. but yeah, lebron might be the perceived goat because no one actually looks into it

[mr4speed]

Great post. I've said this on another thread.

Since you mentioned Gretzky despite his insane records I've got a few buddies who watch a lot of NHL and they say the current era is way more athletic and physical (kind of opposite of the NBA) to the point where a 5'10'' 180 pound Gretzky simply wouldn't last for more than a few years from all the body checks. We'll never know but a lot of peeps are already transitioning from Gretzky onto Crosby and Ovechkin.

Similar situation in soccer where Pele and Maradona were considered GOAT's for the longest time but now Messi and to a lesser extent Cristiano are increasingly being picked over them. It's not that Messi is better than Pele but that most people simply haven't watched Pele. Myself included. Although I will say that soccer is a bit different because of the national pride component. To most Brazilians Pele will always be GOAT.

MJ will eventually feel ancient like Bill Russell does now. He's still relatively recent (retired the season before Lebron started) so there are still a lot of people who watched him. Plus he has the benefit unlike Russell that most of his career is televised and people can at least watch his best games. Most people don't bother though. I'd venture that 99% of NBA fans under the age of 30 haven't watched more than 10 full length games of Jordan. And even the ones that do don't understand the narratives. They see me and other people who tell that MJ was a larger than life player as bullshiters. He really was but you had to be there to see it. Just like I probably can't fathom the greatness of Wilt... In 20 years most ESPN guys will never have watched Jordan live so there's that.
Great post , after the previous referenced post! I think if you asked 10 experts to come up with a "formula" for choosing the GOAT, you would witness 10 different "formulas" and that is not even taking into consideration all the intangibles that we witness and are subjective in measurement. This idea of GOAT, IMO, is an impossible choice, as players cannot control when they were born and can only compete against their own era. Jordan's previous comment I saw, about not wanting to disrespect other players he had never played against, was such a great answer. What I am witnessing with Lebron is an amazing athlete that has sustained great play over a long period of time, but I hesitate to use stat totals compiled as the definitive measurement, as that is too shallow of a look at the player and the game. Remember when Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth's home run total of 714 and many considered Hank as the home run king? As a kid, I too thought the same thing until I began to research both players career's and read what others had to say about both players. Aaron hit 755 homers with 12,364 at bats for an average of 1 homer per 16.37 at bats. Babe hit 714 homers with 8,399 at bats for an average of 1 homer per 11.76 at bats. Aaron played longer and had more opportunities, partially to the season being lengthened to 162 vs 154 games, but many feel what Babe did was far superior. As I kept reading I discovered the pitching mound had been lowered, to give the hitters a better chance, and there was talk about how the baseball itself was believed to be more lively for Aaron, and the distance of the home run fences from home plate were questioned. This for me was an eye opening experience that there are always two sides to any story and usually a lot more information that needs to be researched before forming an opinion. This post is for all the other posters on this site that put up a "Lebron" total and then just say = see "he's the king!" My reply is, this measuring stick is insufficient and laughable. We need to respect the current game, but also to respect the history of the game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan is lucky that most of his playoff games, and hundreds of FULL games, are on the internet and YouTube.

Will be tough for someone to proclimate an 'unworthy heir' when we have evidence of Jordan dominating, everywhere. Unlike we do with Wilt/Russ and to a lesser degree KAJ.

[tpols]

MJ's being humble as an old man.

But everybody knows damn well Jordan would destroy Lebron H2H, and he could easily win with less. Wade and AD + Lebron would be like if MJ played with Charles Barkley and Hakeem. It's a WWE situation that would be comical. And even then Lebron got punked by a super star-less spurs.

[Gus Hemmingway]

MJ's being humble as an old man.

But everybody knows damn well Jordan would destroy Lebron H2H, and he could easily win with less. Wade and AD + Lebron would be like if MJ played with Charles Barkley and Hakeem. It's a WWE situation that would be comical. And even then Lebron got punked by a super star-less spurs.


Barkley and Hakeem DID play together dummy, and they didn't do shit.

Even the 1994 Bulls without MJ is better than those two

[Shooter]

Most Playoff Points
King James
7,491

Good luck to anyone ever wanting to dethrone King James. Until then, his GOAT lead is safe.

Anybody?

I thought so:rockon:

[8Ball]

What is more impressive than 7500 playoff points is 13 All-NBA 1st teams.

Making all-nba 1st team means you are undisputed top 5 player in the NBA, very hard to make that team.

LeBron did it 13x. Most ever.

[tpols]

Barkley and Hakeem DID play together dummy, and they didn't do shit.

Even the 1994 Bulls without MJ is better than those two

Barkley and Hakeem played together when Hakeem was ancient. Barkley was still nice. Pippen and Hakeem shit the bed in the '99 playoffs though.

Stay focused... Imagine PRIME Charles Barkley and MJ together with a McHale, Pau, Bosh type as 3rd option. That's absurd. It would be the biggest cakewalk of all time. But Lebron had that type of help and got shit on. He was 1 Ray Allen buzzer beater away from going 1/4.

That aint GOAT.

[Young X]

I could see that. Michael played so long ago.

But I think if you're a fan who has a grasp of the history of the game you will likely have MJ at #1.

And on the other hand, I could see someone else emerging to put themselves at that level. What if Giannis or somebody newer starts dominating and winning a bunch of championships.

[Axe]

Barkley and Hakeem DID play together dummy, and they didn't do shit.

Even the 1994 Bulls without MJ is better than those two
Tpols at it again

[sdot_thadon]

Sounds like Mj coming to grips with an inevitability. At some point the same exact thing had to occur to give him clearance over the previous generation of goats. Same will occur for Lebron at some point, assuming he's widely recognized as goat at some point. That next guy is probably already on his way, shooting in his driveway as we speak, but surely he's coming.

[3ball]

Sounds like Mj coming to grips with an inevitability. At some point the same exact thing had to occur to give him clearance over the previous generation of goats. Same will occur for Lebron at some point, assuming he's widely recognized as goat at some point. That next guy is probably already on his way, shooting in his driveway as we speak, but surely he's coming.

Lebron will never be widely recognized as goat because there will always be someone else obvious that can exceed his resume (mj).. Jordan didn't have anyone like that (and still doesn't), so only he is "widely recognized" as goat

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron will never be widely recognized as goat because there will always be someone else obvious that can exceed his resume (mj).. Jordan didn't have anyone like that (and still doesn't), so only he is "widely recognized" as goat

Yeah and after 100k posts on this very subject, sadly you still don't quite grasp how this works.

[Mauzah]

The funny thing is I don't think most Jordan advocates would mind if he was eclipsed as the greatest basketball player to ever do it. I think the majority of us are simply interested in truth and that's it.

[sdot_thadon]

The funny thing is I don't think most Jordan advocates would mind if he was eclipsed as the greatest basketball player to ever do it. I think the majority of us are simply interested in truth and that's it.

If it were only up to fans of the previous goat, we'd never have new candidates. Wilt fans fought for a long time to say Mj wasn't worthy of consideration either....

[3ball]

If it were only up to fans of the previous goat, we'd never have new candidates. Wilt fans fought for a long time to say Mj wasn't worthy of consideration either....

The problem is that lebron's argument isn't that he played better - it's that he played more seasons (due to favorable amateur rules)

So he was all-nba for more seasons, but Jordan's all-nba came with all-defense and scoring title too... aka mj played better.. lebron's all-nba came with no all-defense (in 7 years) and #10-15 scorer.. aka lower level of play.. mj was actually top 5 dpoy every year (and scoring champ)

[sdot_thadon]

The problem is that lebron's argument isn't that he played better - it's that he played more seasons (due to favorable amateur rules)

So he was all-nba for more seasons, but Jordan's all-nba came with all-defense and scoring title too... aka mj played better.. lebron's all-nba came with no all-defense (in 7 years) and #10-15 scorer.. aka lower level of play.. mj was actually top 5 dpoy every year (and scoring champ)

The funny thing is you're trying so hard, in vain I might add, to take a conversation that is opinion based and try to apply a true false filter to it. Just won't ever work the way you think it does. Some people in fact believe Lebron has played better than Mj, because.....preferences. Some basketball purists never accepted Mjs high scoring, low teamwork style of play as the best version of basketball. While our generation bought in and ran with it. The game and perception of it has evolved over and over and will keep overwriting itself with each new era and skill benchmark the new crop is able to reach.

Anyway on point, yes Lebron has a case to be the goat and the strength of it is your individual personal taste for how the game is supposed to be played, what you feel defines greatness, and how much mud you're willing to throw on someone's success in lieu of simply appreciating someone at the top level of their craft and the entertainment you derived from it.

[3ball]

The funny thing is you're trying so hard, in vain I might add, to take a conversation that is opinion based and try to apply a true false filter to it. Just won't ever work the way you think it does. Some people in fact believe Lebron has played better than Mj, because.....preferences. Some basketball purists never accepted Mjs high scoring, low teamwork style of play as the best version of basketball. While our generation bought in and ran with it. The game and perception of it has evolved over and over and will keep overwriting itself with each new era and skill benchmark the new crop is able to reach.

Anyway on point, yes Lebron has a case to be the goat and the strength of it is your individual personal taste for how the game is supposed to be played, what you feel defines greatness, and how much mud you're willing to throw on someone's success in lieu of simply appreciating someone at the top level of their craft and the entertainment you derived from it.

A few extra ball-dominant assists within a vastly inferior and less efficient team offense (on many levels) doesn't offset Jordan's significant 2-way edge (scoring champ and top 5 dpoy > #15 scorer and no all-defense in 7 years)..

But fortunately, we have more than your preference or mine... We have the results - Jordan beat more Finals teams, which is superior to lebron beating more conference finals teams (via more seasons and team-hopping)

So MJ beat more top teams with superior production rate and dominance level, aka scoring champ with all-defense > no defense and #15 scorer...

Btw, it isn't a preference... Being weak at ball movement is a legitimate weakness and it's clearly lebron's - his ball-dominant skillset prevents it, so he gets beat BY it - Lebron's skillset has a lottery record against organic teams and ball movement systems (Mavs, Spurs, Warriors), regardless of cast or favorite status.. Jordan has no such high level, fundamental flaws or exploitability

It's well-docunented that the spurs forced lebron/wade into their weakness (spot-ups), by coming off Wade (leaving him open) to help on lebron's drives and vice-versa.. both had a skill deficit (lacked an assisted skillset or shooting ability), which the spurs exploited.. again, Jordan couldn't be exploited like this due to superior versatility (elite on-ball and off-ball)

[Dagoods]

Finally, JORDAN has some competition.

PELE in soccer had no competition until the arrival of DIEGO MARADONA (to some he has been replaced by MESSI). However, Pele is still the best soccer (aka the real football) player of all-time.

LEBRON is the only basketball player who can rival JORDAN, but I do not believe he'll ever surpass him for the following reasons:

JORDAN was a better two-way player (Excelled both in offense and defense);
JORDAN was a better scorer;
JORDAN was a better defender;
JORDAN won back to back 3peats which is better than winning in different SUPER TEAMS;
JORDAN never formed a Super Team;
JORDAN never lost in the finals;
JORDAN won with less all-star teammates;
JORDAN was more clutch;
JORDAN was the better leader;
JORDAN was a trailblazer;
JORDAN won more rings;
JORDAN has won more person accolades;
JORDAN never lost in the finals;
JORDAN never choked in the finals.

why I would never put LeBron over JORDAN?
DIRK trashing the "Heatles".
LeBron getting out played by Jason Terry, enough said!

[Bankaii]

Finally, JORDAN has some competition.

PELE in soccer had no competition until the arrival of DIEGO MARADONA (to some he has been replaced by MESSI). However, Pele is still the best soccer (aka the real football) player of all-time.

LEBRON is the only basketball player who can rival JORDAN, but I do not believe he'll ever surpass him for the following reasons:

JORDAN was a better two-way player (Excelled both in offense and defense);
JORDAN was a better scorer;
JORDAN was a better defender;
JORDAN won back to back 3peats which is better than winning in different SUPER TEAMS;
JORDAN never formed a Super Team;
JORDAN never lost in the finals;
JORDAN won with less all-star teammates;
JORDAN was more clutch;
JORDAN was the better leader;
JORDAN was a trailblazer;
JORDAN won more rings;
JORDAN has won more person accolades;
JORDAN never lost in the finals;
JORDAN never choked in the finals.

why I would never put LeBron over JORDAN?
DIRK trashing the "Heatles".
LeBron getting out played by Jason Terry, enough said!
Bolder are debatable/false.
You listed him never losing in the finals twice.
For the 1000th time, him not losing in the Finals doesn’t disregard him getting blasted in the first round.
You could make this exact same list in favor of Lebron.

[FireDavidKahn]

GAME OVA

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[Dagoods]

1. JORDAN was a better two-way player - How is this debatable ?
10x scoring champion > 1;
9X All-Defensive first team selections > 5;
DPOY > 0

2. JORDAN was a better defender:
893 Blocks /0.8 AVG < 957 (Height & 17 Seasons)/0.8 AVG
2,514 Steals/2.3 AVG > 2,015 (17 SEASONS)/1.6 AVG
DPOY > 0

3. JORDAN never formed a Super Team.
How is this debatable? He never forced a trade or brought a buddy over. He even won a CHIP without any other all-stars in 98.

4. JORDAN was the better leader:
Watch the Last Dance again and you'll see.

5. JORDAN never choked in the finals.
He's got better numbers than LeBron in the finals.
33.6 PPG > 28.4 and so forth...

[TheGoatest]

Jordan knows that once the nostalgia, emotionally-based "back in my day" support for him fizzles out and the objective, fact-based arguments that favor LeBron start to prevail, his days are finished.

[Kiddlovesnets]

First of all, lets not take his words out of context, he may mean it differently than what you want to interpret. Second, lets not forget that MJ isnt quite logical with his words. Didnt he also say 5>3 when comparing Lebron with Kobe 3 years ago? Do you agree with that logic?
:pimp:

[FultzNationRISE]

We DID it :bowdown::banana: :dancin:hammertime::djparty

[bullettooth]

Only thing LeBron is going to catch up to MJ with is his hairline.

[FromDowntown]

top 3 goats curry, lebran, jordon

[davidkimchi]

I guess that settles it

[Spurs m8]

I guess that settles it

Settles what?

That you're a man child?

Nice

[davidkimchi]

Settles what?

That you're a man child?

Nice

why the insults? Why cannot we have a mature discussion without name calling

[Full Court]

Jordan's just recognizing that recency bias is a real thing. The same reason some people don't put Wilt in the top 5. They just have no clue how good he was.

[WhiteKyrie]

Jordan's just recognizing that recency bias is a real thing. The same reason some people don't put Wilt in the top 5. They just have no clue how good he was.
True

[Airupthere]

Future generations will wonder about Lebron’s stats and name being brought up, but as soon as they watch him on youtube and see the crabwalking, cringe shit, ugly ass game, and flopping, they will dial out.

[FromDowntown]

curry > jordan > lebronze > kobe > bird

[lebronlover69]

I'd take Jordan's opinion over the opinion of those LeBron haters who probably arent even pro basketball players
All hail LeGoat James