KD teamed up with 70-wins but Lebron teamed up with Kobe/Pau 2 (Wade/Bosh) [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

11-15-2020, 03:42 PM

They underachieved in 2011 in large part because of Bron.

How many titles do you think Miami should have won, tho?

It's an intellectual failure to think the Spurs just "got hot" and won.. teams don't randomly get hot for 3 straight games.. that doesn't even make sense

A tired or unconfident team can't get hot.. only a confident and FRESH team will get hot, like a team that isn't getting worn down defensively and feels confident they're inflicting more pressure than they're facing.. the best defense is a good offense

Ultimately, lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses or wear down teams like the ball movement he faces on the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.. bron-ball simply loses the attrition battle on the championship level

Lebron's is always a weaker jumpshooter than his championship competition as well, so his teams can't fight fire with fire, further losing the attrition battle (in addition to the weaker ball movement)

Otoh, Jordan didn't have the ball movement or shooting/spurtability issue

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-15-2020, 03:47 PM

It's an intellectual failure to think the Spurs just "got hot" and won.. teams don't randomly get hot for 3 straight games.. that doesn't even make sense

A tired or unconfident team can't get hot.. only a confident and FRESH team will get hot, like a team that isn't getting worn down defensively and feels confident that they're inflicting more pressure than they're facing

Ultimately, lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses or wear down teams like the ball movement he faces on the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.. bron-ball simply loses the attrition battle on the championship level

So how many titles should they have won?

Also how good do you think Wade and Bosh were in 2014? Neither made an All-Team then or afterwards nor produced at a 10 Kobe/Pau level. You blaming that on Bron or just not explaining it right?

pandiani17

11-15-2020, 03:52 PM

2010 Wade... 28 PER... 9.0 BPM
2010 Kobe'... 22 PER... 4.5 BPM

So Lebron teamed up with a better version of the 09/10 repeat champs but only went 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss

Here we go again. The Miami Heat 2010/2011 roster was quite bad apart from the Big Three, IIRC they had Joel Anthony STARTING at center in the finals. They didn't have any good point guards or centers, and they lacked three point shooters. It was a not a well-balanced roster. And yes, LeBron choked in the finals, but he has redeemed himself since then, especially with the '16 and '20 titles. KD's was worse in my opinion, joining a 73-win team, it was as if he was buying rings for himself. And unlike LeBron, he needs to redeem himself in different franchises.

8Ball

11-15-2020, 04:00 PM

73 Wins > 72 Wins from Jordan.

LeBron beat a 73 win team with nobodies.

3ball

11-15-2020, 04:03 PM

Also how good do you think Wade and Bosh were in 2014?

Neither made an All-Team then or afterwards

Are you trolling?... Wade and Bosh were all-stars in 14', 15', and 16'

Wade was a star in the 16' Playoffs and nearly upset the Raptors with no help (fyi - 18' love averaged 21/11 vs Raps)

Wade got prime pippen stats from 13-16', which is why everyone thinks he sucks - now you know how I feel about pippen

how good do you think Wade and Bosh were in 2014?

Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat

Playoffs

14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm

Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg

Wade got prime pippen stats from 13-16', which is why everyone thinks he sucks - now you know how I feel about pippen

So how many titles should they have won?

4/4 is what the goat would've done, plus more titles after 2014 because he would've stayed and enjoyed having perennial all-stars Wade/Bosh + more additions like Butler and Bam (or other additions of you don't like that hypothetical)

Gus Hemmingway

11-15-2020, 04:05 PM

Are you trolling?... Wade and Bosh were all-stars in 14', 15', and 16'

Wade was a star in the 16' Playoffs and nearly upset the Raptors with no help (fyi - 18' love averaged 21/11 vs Raps)

Wade got prime pippen stats from 13-16', which is why everyone thinks he sucks - now you know how I feel about pippen

Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat

Playoffs

14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm

Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg

4/4 is what the goat would've done, plus more titles after 2014 because he would've stayed and enjoyed having perennial all-stars Wade/Bosh + more additions like Butler and Bam (or other additions of you don't like that hypothetical)

Wade/Bosh missed the playoffs in 2015

Does Kobe/Pau miss the playoffs as well?

tpols

11-15-2020, 04:12 PM

3ball

11-15-2020, 04:13 PM

Wade/Bosh missed the playoffs in 2015

Does Kobe/Pau miss the playoffs as well?

Wade/Bosh missed 40 games in 15', so they missed the playoffs by 1/2 game

But the 14' Heat had already crumbled to a 1st round Western team equivalent (based on how they played against the Spurs in the Finals).. so they were already a shitty team and needed to rebuild regardless of whether lebron stayed or left

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-15-2020, 04:17 PM

Are you trolling?... Wade and Bosh were all-stars in 14', 15', and 16'

Wade was a star in the 16' Playoffs and nearly upset the Raptors with no help (fyi - 18' love averaged 21/11 vs Raps)

Wade got prime pippen stats from 13-16', which is why everyone thinks he sucks - now you know how I feel about pippen

Are you reading posts or just punching keys? I said All-Teams not All-Stars. Wade nor Bosh were All-NBA level in 2014 or afterward.

From 14-16, Wade averaged a 2.2 BPM which is around Top 47-50 in all of the NBA.

He was barely star level and pretending otherwise is laughable.

4/4 is what the goat would've done, plus more titles after 2014 because he would've stayed and enjoyed having perennial all-stars Wade/Bosh + more additions like Butler and Bam (or other additions of you don't like that hypothetical)

All I was asking. 3 or 4 championships is what I think they should've won too.

I don't give LeBron a pass for 2014, but I'm not pretending Wade and Bosh were lighting up the joint either. Wade was Top 30 in BPM and Bosh was ~73. Hardly consistent. You blame that on 'Bron ball' whereas I think its mostly because of age and attrition.

Horatio33

11-15-2020, 04:18 PM

2010 Wade... 28 PER... 9.0 BPM
2010 Kobe'... 22 PER... 4.5 BPM

So Lebron teamed up with a better version of the 09/10 repeat champs but only went 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss

Do you not get bored of making similar threads all the time? We all know you love Jordan and Kobe, you hate LeBron. OK we got it. But what are you getting out of making multiple LeBron bash threads per day?

I'm a Spurs fan. I think Jordan is the greatest. I also think LeBron has a case. But it doesn't dominate my day. I've got stuff to get on with. Have you? The evidence points to no.

pandiani17

11-15-2020, 04:20 PM

I've never seen anything like it in sports. The guy teams up with a super super superstar in Dwayne Wade... and has a Pau level 3rd option... everybody at the time was outraged, and even they themselves at the time proclaimed a Bill Russell dynasty. The Heat ended up going 2/4, being beat by huge underdogs by record margins... and now in hindsight everybody says Lebron just didn't have enough help. It's a mindblowing situation.

Didn't you see the Lakers 03-04 season? Or the Lakers 12-13 season? Or the Warriors 18-19 season? Or the Rockets lockout season? Those just top of my head. There have been multiple super-teams that have failed to win a title in the history of the NBA.

tpols

11-15-2020, 04:22 PM

2010 Wade... 28 PER... 9.0 BPM
2010 Kobe'... 22 PER... 4.5 BPM

Wow... thats nuts.

To be fair Kobe was hurt and coasted through the regular season while Wade had to drag a bunch of nobodies to the playoffs... but still. It goes to show the level of collusion.

It would be like if Larry and Magic teamed up and underachieved.

That would simply never happen.

3ball

11-15-2020, 04:26 PM

.
2010 REGULAR SEASON

Wade... 27/5/7... 48%.. 28.0 PER.. 9.2 BPM.. 7.9 VORP.. 0.224 ws/48
Kobe.... 27/5/5... 46%.. 21.9 PER.. 4.1 BPM.. 4.4 VORP.. 0.160 ws/48

2010 PLAYOFFS vs CELTICS

Wade 1st Round... 33/6/7 on 56%
Kobe Finals........... 29/8/4 on 41%

Shooter

11-15-2020, 04:29 PM

73 Wins > 72 Wins from Jordan.

LeBron beat a 73 win team with nobodies.

And that's the end of that

8Ball

11-15-2020, 04:29 PM

2010 Wade... 28 PER... 9.0 BPM
2010 Kobe'... 22 PER... 4.5 BPM

So Lebron teamed up with a better version of the 09/10 repeat champs but only went 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss

Ok let's talk about PER then:

2018 LeBron PER > any of Jordan's playoff PER.

32.2 > Any playoff PER Jordan.

2009 playoffs 37.4 PER > Anything Jordan could have ever done statistically.

LeBron's peak > Jordan's peak.
LeBron's longevity > Jordan's longevity.

More peak PER playoff runs, more All-NBA teams.

leBron Bieber

11-15-2020, 04:38 PM

2010 Wade... 28 PER... 9.0 BPM
2010 Kobe'... 22 PER... 4.5 BPM

So Lebron teamed up with a better version of the 09/10 repeat champs but only went 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss

Kobe and wade are not in the same stratosphere but just to show you how dumb that take is ( I copy and pasted the top 10 per leaders on the last season

Giannis Antetokounmpo, MIL 63 30.4 .613 16.9 11.0 37.2 7.7 34.8 22.1 31.94 584.9 19.5
2 James Harden, HOU 68 36.5 .626 19.1 11.5 36.5 2.9 16.0 9.4 29.11 689.8 23.0
3 Luka Doncic, DAL 61 33.6 .585 23.4 11.3 38.3 4.1 25.0 14.7 27.65 523.8 17.5
4 Anthony Davis, LAL 62 34.4 .610 11.9 9.2 28.9 7.4 22.1 14.8 27.50 508.8 17.0
5 Damian Lillard, POR 66 37.5 .627 23.0 8.4 31.3 1.4 10.5 6.0 26.95 589.1 19.6
6 Kawhi Leonard, LAC 57 32.4 .589 16.1 8.6 33.2 3.1 19.1 11.3 26.91 452.7 15.1
7 Karl-Anthony Towns, MIN 35 33.9 .642 15.5 11.2 28.8 8.1 26.1 16.8 26.53 282.3 9.4
8 Kyrie Irving, BKN 20 32.9 .595 20.0 8.1 33.3 3.5 12.5 8.1 26.24 149.6 5.0
9 Joel Embiid, PHI 51 29.5 .590 11.7 12.2 32.4 10.3 33.2 21.7 25.82 342.1 11.4
10 LeBron James, LAL 67 34.6 .577 28.3 10.8 33.6 3.2 21.5 12.4 25.55
By your logic lebron is the 10th best player in the league currently kyrie and KAT who missed the playoffs must be better right ? And must have overachieved to beat 2 top 5 players and get fmvp over another . Come on man

And just to add salt , the 11th player is .. take a guess

Nope

It’s Hassan whiteside :facepalm

You clearly want to defend Jordan but you are hurting his legacy with nonsense like this

3ball

11-15-2020, 04:55 PM

Kobe and wade are not in the same stratosphere but just to show you how dumb that take is ( I copy and pasted the top 10 per leaders on the last season

Giannis Antetokounmpo, MIL 63 30.4 .613 16.9 11.0 37.2 7.7 34.8 22.1 31.94 584.9 19.5
2 James Harden, HOU 68 36.5 .626 19.1 11.5 36.5 2.9 16.0 9.4 29.11 689.8 23.0
3 Luka Doncic, DAL 61 33.6 .585 23.4 11.3 38.3 4.1 25.0 14.7 27.65 523.8 17.5
4 Anthony Davis, LAL 62 34.4 .610 11.9 9.2 28.9 7.4 22.1 14.8 27.50 508.8 17.0
5 Damian Lillard, POR 66 37.5 .627 23.0 8.4 31.3 1.4 10.5 6.0 26.95 589.1 19.6
6 Kawhi Leonard, LAC 57 32.4 .589 16.1 8.6 33.2 3.1 19.1 11.3 26.91 452.7 15.1
7 Karl-Anthony Towns, MIN 35 33.9 .642 15.5 11.2 28.8 8.1 26.1 16.8 26.53 282.3 9.4
8 Kyrie Irving, BKN 20 32.9 .595 20.0 8.1 33.3 3.5 12.5 8.1 26.24 149.6 5.0
9 Joel Embiid, PHI 51 29.5 .590 11.7 12.2 32.4 10.3 33.2 21.7 25.82 342.1 11.4
10 LeBron James, LAL 67 34.6 .577 28.3 10.8 33.6 3.2 21.5 12.4 25.55
By your logic lebron is the 10th best player in the league currently kyrie and KAT who missed the playoffs must be better right ? And must have overachieved to beat 2 top 5 players and get fmvp over another . Come on man

And just to add salt , the 11th player is .. take a guess

Nope

It’s Hassan whiteside :facepalm

You clearly want to defend Jordan but you are hurting his legacy with nonsense like this

Wade was simply better in 2010 by every measure:

2010 REGULAR SEASON

Wade... 27/5/7... 48%.. 28.0 PER.. 9.2 BPM.. 7.9 VORP.. 0.224 ws/48
Kobe.... 27/5/5... 46%.. 21.9 PER.. 4.1 BPM.. 4.4 VORP.. 0.160 ws/48

2010 PLAYOFFS vs CELTICS

Wade 1st Round... 33/6/7 on 56%
Kobe Finals........... 29/8/4 on 41%[

Wade was ranked #2 in PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 - so he was the #2 producer in the league, aka the best help, yet only 2/4 with bron

SouBeachTalents

11-15-2020, 04:56 PM

I've never seen anything like it in sports. The guy teams up with a super super superstar in Dwayne Wade... and has a Pau level 3rd option... everybody at the time was outraged, and even they themselves at the time proclaimed a Bill Russell dynasty. The Heat ended up going 2/4, being beat by huge underdogs by record margins... and now in hindsight everybody says Lebron just didn't have enough help. It's a mindblowing situation.
Why do you pretend Wade was a super super superstar after 2011? What do you get out of being so disingenuous :lol

3ball

11-15-2020, 04:58 PM

Why do you still pretend Wade was a super super superstar after 2011? What do you get out of being completely disingenuous :lol

Bosh/Wade were all-stars from 2013 to 2016, and Wade was a star in the 16' Playoffs

That's history, not opinion

But Wade had been reduced to prime pippen stats from 13-16', so everyone thought he sucked - now you know how I feel when I say pippen sucked

tpols

11-15-2020, 05:02 PM

Why do you pretend Wade was a super super superstar after 2011? What do you get out of being so disingenuous :lol

Lebron LOST with Dwayne Wade in 2011.

Whose being disingenuous?

3ball

11-15-2020, 05:05 PM

Why do you pretend Wade was a super super superstar after 2011? What do you get out of being so disingenuous :lol

And are you saying that lebron needs peak Wade (~kobe) to win?

Gus Hemmingway

11-15-2020, 05:39 PM

And are you saying that lebron needs peak Wade (~kobe) to win?

No, because he won without any all star teammates in 2016

So he doesn’t need Kobe to win, just a couple of role players (ala 2016 Cavs)

SouBeachTalents

11-15-2020, 05:43 PM

Lebron LOST with Dwayne Wade in 2011.

Whose being disingenuous?
LeBron winning or losing with Wade in 2011 is completely irrelevant to what I said, everyone knows LeBron fcked up spectacularly that year. You out here acting like Wade was at a super super superstar level in 2013 & '14 is shamelessly dishonest, hell even by 2012 Wade wasn't at that level anymore

SouBeachTalents

11-15-2020, 05:45 PM

And are you saying that lebron needs peak Wade (~kobe) to win?
Why would I say that when he won b2b titles without peak Wade :lol

Axe

11-15-2020, 05:46 PM

LeBron winning or losing with Wade in 2011 is completely irrelevant to what I said, everyone knows LeBron fcked up spectacularly that year. You out here acting like Wade was at a super super superstar level in 2013 & '14 is shamelessly dishonest, hell even by 2012 Wade wasn't at that level anymore
Was outplayed by an old jason terry that time

Axe

11-15-2020, 05:48 PM

Didn't you see the Lakers 03-04 season? Or the Lakers 12-13 season? Or the Warriors 18-19 season? Or the Rockets lockout season? Those just top of my head. There have been multiple super-teams that have failed to win a title in the history of the NBA.
So a 45-win lakers team bound for a downhill is considered a super-team? Lol.

3ball

11-15-2020, 05:52 PM

Why would I say that when he won b2b titles without peak Wade :lol

So why are you complaining then?

Bosh or non-peak Wade = best 2nd option in league...

3ball

11-15-2020, 05:53 PM

Lebron lost 6 times with 1 or 2 seeds (good teams)

Infact, everyone lost with good teams except mj

Axe

11-15-2020, 05:57 PM

Lebron lost 6 times with 1 or 2 seeds (good teams)

Infact, everyone lost with good teams except mj
Don't forget mj's bulls teams went 1-9 in the postseason without pippen and he never had any playoff trips with the wizards.

SouBeachTalents

11-15-2020, 05:57 PM

So why are you complaining then?

Bosh or non-peak Wade = best 2nd option in league...
I'm complaining? :lol

Nigguh, you're the one who's made dozens of threads and literally hundreds of posts complaining about how bad Pippen was :oldlol:

3ball

11-15-2020, 06:22 PM

Don't forget mj's bulls teams went 1-9 in the postseason without pippen and he never had any playoff trips with the wizards.

Wizard MJ did the same as rookie lebron - he led a 19-win team to 37 wins and the 9 seed.

And that's what no one understands - Jordan's 30-win teams made the playoffs and he was forced to carry them - so imagine if lebron's lottery squads from 04/05/19 made the 8 seed and faced the 19' warriors or 04' Pistons ... Broom-time folks

Otoh, lebron never had a 30-something-win team in the playoffs - he only had developed, good teams in the playoffs (high seeds and 50-win teams)

So lebron was leading 50-60 win teams in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while MJ had 30-win teams in a super-team conference.

sdot_thadon

11-15-2020, 06:29 PM

Wizard MJ did the same as rookie lebron - he led a 19-win team to 37 wins and the 9 seed.

And that's what no one understands - Jordan's 30-win teams made the playoffs and he was forced to carry them - so imagine if lebron's lottery squads from 04/05/19 made the 8 seed and faced the 19' warriors or 04' Pistons ... Broom-time folks

Otoh, lebron never had a 30-something-win team in the playoffs - he only had developed, good teams in the playoffs (high seeds and 50-win teams)

So lebron was leading 50-60 win teams in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while MJ had 30-win teams in a super-team conference.

Imagine if Mjs 02/03 wizards could even make the playoffs in the worst eastern conference ever.

3ball

11-15-2020, 06:36 PM

Imagine if Mjs 02/03 wizards could even make the playoffs in the worst eastern conference ever.

That's what lebron and mj did from 02-05' because they were dealing with 18-win teams that they had to improve to 45+ to make the playoffs.. it took lebron 3 years to do this

But MJ's 30-win teams were unlucky to make the playoffs so mj had to carry an 8 seed against super-teams

So imagine if lebron's 30-win teams from 04/05/19 made the 8 seed and faced the 19' warriors or 04' Pistons ... Broom-time folks.. but lebron had to improve those teams first before making the playoffs (added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY).. he only had good teams in the playoffs

Axe

11-15-2020, 06:40 PM

That's what lebron and mj did from 02-05' because they were dealing with 18-win teams that they had to improve to 45+ to make the playoffs.. it took lebron 3 years to do this

But imagine if lebron's 30-win teams from 04/05/19 made the 8 seed and faced the 19' warriors or 04' Pistons ... Broom-time folks.. lebron had to improve those teams first before making the playoffs (added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY)
Still the wizards weren't able to clinch a playoff spot at all in those years, despite having baldan and dc. :confusedshrug:

3ball

11-15-2020, 06:42 PM

Still the wizards weren't able to clinch a playoff spot at all in those years, despite having baldan and dc. :confusedshrug:

He was old in 03' and lebron was young in 04'.. both get passes

However, the experienced, prime lebron had young pippen (Ingram), but missed the 19' playoffs.. lebron's narrower skillset (no off-ball) needed a bird-fed closer (AD) instead of a "pippen"/ball-handler (Ingram)

HoopsNY

11-15-2020, 08:18 PM

Bro. Can't you discuss something else? Bran stans aren't listening and will repeat their mantra, but you're doing the same. I'm surprised kuniva even responded.

Manny98

11-15-2020, 08:20 PM

Yh but the Heat had no depth whatsoever, they were top heavy af

Hey Yo

11-15-2020, 08:45 PM

He was old in 03' and lebron was young in 04'.. both get passes

However, the experienced, prime lebron had young pippen (Ingram), but missed the 19' playoffs.. lebron's narrower skillset (no off-ball) needed a bird-fed closer (AD) instead of a "pippen"/ball-handler (Ingram)
Young Pippen never missed like 30gms as Ingram did in 2019.

Hey Yo

11-15-2020, 08:49 PM

Yh but the Heat had no depth whatsoever, they were top heavy af
The corpse of Mike Bibby and super stiff Joel Anthony were starters in the postseason plus a shit bench, was called a superteam.

light

11-15-2020, 09:38 PM

leBron Bieber

11-15-2020, 09:45 PM

Wade was simply better in 2010 by every measure:

2010 REGULAR SEASON

Wade... 27/5/7... 48%.. 28.0 PER.. 9.2 BPM.. 7.9 VORP.. 0.224 ws/48
Kobe.... 27/5/5... 46%.. 21.9 PER.. 4.1 BPM.. 4.4 VORP.. 0.160 ws/48

2010 PLAYOFFS vs CELTICS

Wade 1st Round... 33/6/7 on 56%
Kobe Finals........... 29/8/4 on 41%[

Wade was ranked #2 in PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 - so he was the #2 producer in the league, aka the best help, yet only 2/4 with bron
What on earth is your logic . Kobe got his team to the finals that year. AND WON after he got them there the last 3 years .. stop using Wade to hurt lebron legacy cause you know if Kobe and lebron teamed up on the lakers they would be better than any perimeter duo EVER. Except maybe lebron and kd . You make no sense! You use stats to say Wade better than Kobe yet lebron literally is the most winning active player/ most points right now and you avoid it like a plague

Axe

11-15-2020, 09:51 PM

Bro. Can't you discuss something else? Bran stans aren't listening and will repeat their mantra, but you're doing the same. I'm surprised kuniva even responded.
His counterpart has been laying off for weeks already while 3ball is still fuming in full swing

tpols

11-16-2020, 12:30 AM

Yh but the Heat had no depth whatsoever, they were top heavy af

That's bullshit.

Battier, Mike Miller, Ray Allen, Birdman, Chalmers were all talented players. The Heat had great depth. Lebron and Wade just clogged each other's driving lanes. Teams sagged and dared them.

Gus Hemmingway

11-16-2020, 12:35 AM

That's bullshit.

Battier, Mike Miller, Ray Allen, Birdman, Chalmers were all talented players. The Heat had great depth. Lebron and Wade just clogged each other's driving lanes. Teams sagged and dared them.

But they missed the playoffs the year LeBron left? See you can't form a rebuttal to that.

The fact the 'talented' Heat missed the playoffs without LeBron, proves they were garbage.