Why did it take so long for MJ to realize for him to win he had to play like LBJ?

[TheCorporation]

It's an interesting topic to deep dive. Basically some players don't get the value of enacting the LeBron formula, aka LeBron-Ball.

So they instead spend their time Jordan 1-9ing, Jordan-balling, Pre Pippening, ball hogging.

As an example, some chuckers are stuck playing an inferior brand of basketball known as BallHog1-9 and never amount to anything. Players such as Jordan, Iverson, Carmello, Westbrook. They overvalue chucking shots and never win anything.

Once players learn the value of LeBron-ball they suddenly win more. As an example, look at MJ's career before he got Pippen and before he knew he could pass

He was stuck in the 1st round getting his cheeks clapped like Tracy McGrady, Iverson, Jordan, etc. All similar players with different heights.

As soon as MJ started playing more like LBJ he started winning. Imagine that.

[kawhileonard2]

It took MJ 7 years to win for a franchise that never won before. It took Lebron 9 years to win a title and he had to join forces with a guy who won as the man in Dwyane Wade in that franchise. He also had other proven winners in Cleveland in Ben Wallace (only allstar on team that won it all) and Shaq. (1x league mvp and 3x finals mvp). If playing like Lebron is a good thing then it shouldn't had taken 9 years to win. Hell he played 17 seasons thus far and has 4 titles jumping to 4 different teams all of which had star players each time.
Playing like Lebron led him to winning 1 titles in 11 seasons for the team that drafted him and he only won due to getting a guy suspended. Hakeem won more titles for the franchise that drafted him as did Isiah Thomas, MJ of course, Tim Duncan, Russell.

[TheCorporation]

It took MJ 7 years to win for a franchise that never won before. It took Lebron 9 years to win a title and he had to join forces with a guy who won as the man in Dwyane Wade in that franchise. He also had other proven winners in Cleveland in Ben Wallace (only allstar on team that won it all) and Shaq. (1x league mvp and 3x finals mvp). If playing like Lebron is a good thing then it shouldn't had taken 9 years to win. Hell he played 17 seasons thus far and has 4 titles jumping to 4 different teams all of which had star players each time.

So it took MJ 7 years to learn LeBron-Ball and an all-time top 30 Hall of Famer in Scottie in order for him to realize how to win.

Got it.

[kawhileonard2]

So it took MJ 7 years to learn LeBron-Ball and an all-time top 30 Hall of Famer in Scottie in order for him to realize how to win.

Got it.

It took MJ 7 years to win for a franchise that never won before. It took Lebron 9 years to win a title and he had to join forces with a guy who won as the man in Dwyane Wade in that franchise. He also had other proven winners in Cleveland in Ben Wallace (only allstar on team that won it all) and Shaq. (1x league mvp and 3x finals mvp). If playing like Lebron is a good thing then it shouldn't had taken 9 years to win. Hell he played 17 seasons thus far and has 4 titles jumping to 4 different teams all of which had star players each time.
Playing like Lebron led him to winning 1 titles in 11 seasons for the team that drafted him and he only won due to getting a guy suspended. Hakeem won more titles for the franchise that drafted him as did Isiah Thomas, MJ of course, Tim Duncan, Russell.

[TheCorporation]

It took MJ 7 years to win for a franchise that never won before. It took Lebron 9 years to win a title and he had to join forces with a guy who won as the man in Dwyane Wade in that franchise. He also had other proven winners in Cleveland in Ben Wallace (only allstar on team that won it all) and Shaq. (1x league mvp and 3x finals mvp). If playing like Lebron is a good thing then it shouldn't had taken 9 years to win. Hell he played 17 seasons thus far and has 4 titles jumping to 4 different teams all of which had star players each time.
Playing like Lebron led him to winning 1 titles in 11 seasons for the team that drafted him and he only won due to getting a guy suspended. Hakeem won more titles for the franchise that drafted him as did Isiah Thomas, MJ of course, Tim Duncan, Russell.

Ohhhh.

So it took MJ 7 years to learn LeBron-Ball and an all-time top 30 Hall of Famer in Scottie in order for him to realize how to win.

Got it.

[kawhileonard2]

Ohhhh.

So it took MJ 7 years to learn LeBron-Ball and an all-time top 30 Hall of Famer in Scottie in order for him to realize how to win.

Got it.

Oh it took Lebron 9 years to win despite playing with another top 5 player all time in Shaq or took 3 tries for a gold medal to win despite playing with multiple MVP players in Duncan, Iverson one of which is a top 5-6 player all time.

It took MJ 7 years to win for a franchise that never won before. It took Lebron 9 years to win a title and he had to join forces with a guy who won as the man in Dwyane Wade in that franchise. He also had other proven winners in Cleveland in Ben Wallace (only allstar on team that won it all) and Shaq. (1x league mvp and 3x finals mvp). If playing like Lebron is a good thing then it shouldn't had taken 9 years to win. Hell he played 17 seasons thus far and has 4 titles jumping to 4 different teams all of which had star players each time.
Playing like Lebron led him to winning 1 titles in 11 seasons for the team that drafted him and he only won due to getting a guy suspended. Hakeem won more titles for the franchise that drafted him as did Isiah Thomas, MJ of course, Tim Duncan, Russell.

[light]

It's an interesting topic to deep dive. Basically some players don't get the value of enacting the LeBron formula, aka LeBron-Ball.

So they instead spend their time Jordan 1-9ing, Jordan-balling, Pre Pippening, ball hogging.

As an example, some chuckers are stuck playing an inferior brand of basketball known as BallHog1-9 and never amount to anything. Players such as Jordan, Iverson, Carmello, Westbrook. They overvalue chucking shots and never win anything.

Once players learn the value of LeBron-ball they suddenly win more. As an example, look at MJ's career before he got Pippen and before he knew he could pass

He was stuck in the 1st round getting his cheeks clapped like Tracy McGrady, Iverson, Jordan, etc. All similar players with different heights.

As soon as MJ started playing more like LBJ he started winning. Imagine that.

https://media.tenor.com/images/b9ab3d89db58a800e58b84677760a88e/tenor.gif

https://media.tenor.com/images/54e64b0a374d46fc566c6ea10161713a/tenor.gif

https://media0.giphy.com/media/HyDAt79JnlY4M/giphy.gif

[Gohan]

Basically what op is saying is that mj is better at lebron ball than lebron is

[Kiddlovesnets]

This is funny because MJ never realized he should play like Lebron and if he did, he would go 2-4 in the finals rather than 6-0. Lebron is FFOAT, MJ is the GOAT, there’s a big difference.

[r0drig0lac]

Basically what op is saying is that mj is better at lebron ball than lebron is

this

[TheCorporation]

https://media.tenor.com/images/b9ab3d89db58a800e58b84677760a88e/tenor.gif

https://media.tenor.com/images/54e64b0a374d46fc566c6ea10161713a/tenor.gif

https://media0.giphy.com/media/HyDAt79JnlY4M/giphy.gif

We gottem squirming now

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[TheCorporation]

This is funny because MJ never realized he should play like Lebron and if he did, he would go 2-4 in the finals rather than 6-0. Lebron is FFOAT, MJ is the GOAT, there’s a big difference.

Against who? Jeff Hornacek? :lol

[Gohan]

Who did lebron play? A suspended draymond green?

[Baller789]

Funny thing is, MJ didnt play like LBJ.


OP is a fakkit.

[Axe]

Funny thing is, MJ didnt play like LBJ.


OP is a fakkit.
He can't because he is frail

[Baller789]

He can't because he is frail

So your arguing against TheCorporation?


Ok got it!

[baudkarma]

I guess this means that LeBron has (or perhaps soon will) invent time travel and will go back to 1990 to teach MJ how to play "LeBron-Ball". And of course LeBron totally invented that himself, and was not in any way influenced by the way MJ and the Bulls played during their dynasty. It's "LeBron-Ball" not "MJ-Ball". Nevermind that MJ was doing it while LeBron was still in grade school. Who taught who?

It doesn't take a "deep dive". You barely have to get your toes wet in the kiddie pool. NBA offenses and defenses are constantly evolving. Rules change, officiating styles change, tactics change, and players have to adjust. There is no such thing as "LeBron-Ball". LeBron is an adapter, not an innovator. There's nothing he or his teams do that hasn't been done by many other teams before him. Give LeBron credit for being a great athlete, being an incredibly hard worker, and for being flexible. When he see something that works, he adapts it. That's really intelligent. But suggesting that LeBron invented the whole motion offence-ball sharing play we seen in the modern NBA is just stupid.

[8Ball]

If Jordan ever played on LeBron's team against any list of super stars Jordan would be playing under LeBron ball, not some inferior system like the triangle.

[Hey Yo]

Who did lebron play? A suspended draymond green?
A non-suspended Draymond Green put up 32-15-9 in game 7

If your 3rd-4th option, can do that at home, and still lose ........ that's on the the 73 win team.

[Hey Yo]

So your arguing against TheCorporation?


Ok got it!

LOL @ straight_altin

[And1AllDay]

So your arguing against TheCorporation?


Ok got it!

straight altin/ego killers new account spotted :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

Who did lebron play? A suspended draymond green?

whats mikes best ring?

[Baller789]

straight altin/ego killers new account spotted :oldlol:

*Yawn*

[kawhileonard2]

This is funny because MJ never realized he should play like Lebron and if he did, he would go 2-4 in the finals rather than 6-0. Lebron is FFOAT, MJ is the GOAT, there’s a big difference.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[TheCorporation]

Thanks for the bump. Just for a nice recap:

Jordan was a ball hogger that took way too many shots. He was Allen Iverson and Carmello Anthony first. Only difference is that MJ also got Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman and Tony Kukoc, etc. AND, he learned to change his style of play. Once Jordan started playing like LeBron he was able to win. Imagine that.

LeBron ball is the best type of ball. Period.

[Airupthere]

I don’t think any other player ever tried to play like this


https://youtu.be/-jqjZ2vfsuY

[light]

Young Jordan was on some macho BS / toxic masculinity and wanted to score all the points and get all the glory.

His teammates disliked him and his coaches were frustrated with him and he just didn't get it.

"I've got one fear, it's that I'm going to play all this time in the league and come so close and never get a ring. I only want to win. Michael's got so much talent and can do so much for this team, but I keep thinking he's going to keep us all from it unless he changes."

- Bill Cartwright, 1990

"I've never seen anything like this. Here we are winning and nobody's happy. I was with the Spurs and we went from winning the division to winning thirty-seven games and guys still enjoyed playing. They enjoyed the game and had a good time. But nobody wants to be here. Everyone wants to play somewhere else. It's just not supposed to be like this."

- John Paxson, 1990

[Bronbron23]

It's an interesting topic to deep dive. Basically some players don't get the value of enacting the LeBron formula, aka LeBron-Ball.

So they instead spend their time Jordan 1-9ing, Jordan-balling, Pre Pippening, ball hogging.

As an example, some chuckers are stuck playing an inferior brand of basketball known as BallHog1-9 and never amount to anything. Players such as Jordan, Iverson, Carmello, Westbrook. They overvalue chucking shots and never win anything.

Once players learn the value of LeBron-ball they suddenly win more. As an example, look at MJ's career before he got Pippen and before he knew he could pass

He was stuck in the 1st round getting his cheeks clapped like Tracy McGrady, Iverson, Jordan, etc. All similar players with different heights.

As soon as MJ started playing more like LBJ he started winning. Imagine that.

This is so wrong it's not even funny. Did you watch the last dance? They talked about how for mj and bulls to win they had to take the ball out of his hands so everyone could touch the ball more on every play. Mj played more like bron before phil dummy. That's what bron ball is. Always having the ball in your hands. Bron has only not played this way for a few years. His run in miami and recently with lakers although to a lesser degree.

Bron stans are so unaware its hilarious

[Airupthere]

This is so wrong it's not even funny. Did you watch the last dance? They talked about how for mj and bulls to win they had to take the ball out of his hands so everyone could touch the ball more on every play. Mj played more like bron before phil dummy. That's what bron ball is. Always having the ball in your hands. Bron has only not played this way for a few years. His run in miami and recently with lakers although to a lesser degree.

Bron stans are so unaware its hilarious

They are unaware and unacknowledging of many things like superteams, lebron’s hair patch up, flopping etc.

[Micku]

I feel like the whole MJ didn't trust his teammates as in he didn't pass them the ball is an exaggeration. Not to say he didn't become better at it, but he become better at it in a different way. He did play off the ball even back then and played the PG position where he played similar to James Harden or Lebron, running the offense. He used to draw plenty of attention, but his teammates couldn't knock down the open shot.

MJ and Doug Collins commented on it at the time.



“Michael scores 46 points, and people say he’s not sharing enough of the offense. Now he takes eight shots and you tell him he’s the highest-priced decoy in the game."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-01-sp-1414-story.html




He wasn't a decoy,'' Collins said. ''He was creating out there. But as soon as he catches the ball, two or three guys run at him. He threw to the open man. He can't shoot with three men on him.''

https://www.nytimes.com/1989/06/02/sports/when-bulls-meet-pistons-the-defenses-never-rest.html

He did a drive and kick out thing to the open man, and they would shoot it. But they missed open shots. Pretty much it. They weren't good enough. It wasn't because MJ was selfish or anything. Although he become more confident in his teammates later on. But it's through coaching and performance for his teammates. If you watch the games or check the stats, they couldn't really score outside of MJ. Although they did defend well, they got killed on the boards and couldn't score enough to keep up. The Pistons beat them in second chance points.

Their whole tactics was to spread the floor anyway. They wanted Cartwright to operate in the low post, get him going early and then hopefully the the opponent big men in foul trouble. This would allow MJ to attack the paint and Cartwright or other post players to score easier in the post. If not, then they could pass it out to the shooters. And just didn't happen that way. They weren't ready that year. MJ talked about this too.



"We're still improving," Jordan says. "I wouldn't give us a B or an A. I think we're still moving up toward that caliber but we haven't gotten there yet. With our low-post man, it helps to have guys who can shoot the ball with range. When we can space the floor that way, it helps extend the defense and forces them to play out at 25 feet, which helps give your post man room to operate. Our main focus is to get the ball inside and try to create whatever. Get their big guys in foul trouble. If he can't score and he kicks it back out then I think that opens up things for everyone else. He is the key to us right now."


https://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/February-1989/Michael-Jordans-Best-Shot/

But in the same article, it also mention that the teammates forget to get themselves open shots or get in position for the rebound. However in the series of 1989, they did have open shots. They just missed it. The 88-90 Bulls team is not the same as the 91-93 Bulls team. Like Paxson would've made the open shot in 91 more likely than 89. Pippen develop an acceptable midrange game in 91 and was a better finisher than he was in 89. Etc, etc.

[light]

This is so wrong it's not even funny. Did you watch the last dance? They talked about how for mj and bulls to win they had to take the ball out of his hands so everyone could touch the ball more on every play. Mj played more like bron before phil dummy. That's what bron ball is. Always having the ball in your hands. Bron has only not played this way for a few years. His run in miami and recently with lakers although to a lesser degree.

Bron stans are so unaware its hilarious

"Bron ball" is not taking 25-30 field goal attempts per game on 5 assists and that's what Jordan did before Phil Jackson.

Bron ball is finding the mismatch and exploiting it whether scoring directly or with an assist to an open teammate or a hockey assist and not favoring one over the other but going with whatever is the best option on that play based on what the defense presents.

The point of getting the ball out of Jordan's hands was so that the ball can find open teammates because Jordan wasn't going to do it.

And as you already know LeBron is the king of finding open teammates.

Jordan favored individual scoring first and foremost even if other options were better choices <<<<< This is why Jackson wanted the ball out of his hands

[Airupthere]

Why did Lebron need to be trained by Olajuwon during his peak? He cant figure things out by himself. Imagine putting him in drugladen nba league in the 80s with cruder everything. Lebron only rides on successes before him and still he could not figure out good footwork by himself.

Given that Olajuwon trains him, this is what Olajuwon had to say

“When people start comparing him with Jordan, then that’s not a fair comparison. Jordan was a far more superior player in a very tough league, and he was very creative. That’s not taking away anything from LeBron because he is a great player, but it is not a fair comparison because Jordan is a far superior player.”

[Axe]

"Bron ball" is not taking 25-30 field goal attempts per game on 5 assists and that's what Jordan did before Phil Jackson.

Bron ball is finding the mismatch and exploiting it whether scoring directly or with an assist to an open teammate or a hockey assist and not favoring one over the other but going with whatever is the best option on that play based on what the defense presents.

The point of getting the ball out of Jordan's hands was so that the ball can find open teammates because Jordan wasn't going to do it.

And as you already know LeBron is the king of finding open teammates.

Jordan favored individual scoring first and foremost even if other options were better choices <<<<< This is why Jackson wanted the ball out of his hands
Soon king kong will be king of tos too before you even know. :cheers:

Btw i don't understand your weird obsession about baldan. If he's really an insignificant player, don't you think it would be wise to refrain talking about him dayly? :confusedshrug:

[Honor Boost]

Soon king kong will be king of tos too before you even know. :cheers:

Btw i don't understand your weird obsession about baldan. If he's really an insignificant player, don't you think it would be wise to refrain talking about him dayly? :confusedshrug:

It is always wise to be talking about a goat dayly

[Axe]

It is always wise to be talking about a goat dayly
But he isn't anymore. Bran has displaced him already, more or less.

[Micku]

"Bron ball" is not taking 25-30 field goal attempts per game on 5 assists and that's what Jordan did before Phil Jackson.

Bron ball is finding the mismatch and exploiting it whether scoring directly or with an assist to an open teammate or a hockey assist and not favoring one over the other but going with whatever is the best option on that play based on what the defense presents.

The point of getting the ball out of Jordan's hands was so that the ball can find open teammates because Jordan wasn't going to do it.

And as you already know LeBron is the king of finding open teammates.

Jordan favored individual scoring first and foremost even if other options were better choices <<<<< This is why Jackson wanted the ball out of his hands


It isn't that. The point of getting the ball out of MJ hands is so that they would rather his teammates beat them than MJ. They weren't going to let one star beat them. And the team couldn't knock down the open shot.

The triangle is more of a shared b-ball, so that everybody gets a touch and they operate out of the post. It would get everybody involved.

The way MJ was playing before was mixture. He was no stranger playing off the ball. And you could see that in the games. But sometimes he would play point too. But again, his teammates weren't good enough. That's why they didn't win. MJ could've changed the way he played, and he could've find guys easier for sure. But they didn't knock down their shots.

He averaged 5 apg and 45 ppg in 88 before the Pistons.
He averaged about 8 apg and 38 ppg before the Pistons in 89.
He averaged about 7 apg and 40 ppg before the Pistons in 90.

It wasn't really lack of MJ's passing game really. It was his stardom and his scoring threat. The Pistons forced him to pass the ball because they also didn't believe his teammates could do it. But they weren't gonn'a let MJ take over and score 40 on them constantly. That isn't to say MJ had trust in his teammates. He didn't. But I think the reason why he didn't cuz they didn't deliver.

His teammates weren't good enough till 90, but he didn't trust him till 91.



One of Jordan's few weaknesses as a professional has been his lack of trust in his teammates. Even Bulls coach Phil Jackson said Jordan did not become a fan of his fellow Bulls until February, which coincided with the beginning of an 11-game winning streak. Since Feb. 3, the Bulls are a staggering 45-9, and that includes a 14-2 record in the playoffs.


And this:



They say his teammates were not a good supporting cast. But the point is if Jordan did not have confidence in them, how would he know if they were or were not a good supporting cast? Jordan was not very tolerant of failure, and understandably so. He knew if a teammate did not score, he could. And so it became habit to dominate the ball.

But basically it's like this. MJ didn't his trust his teammates cuz they weren't good enough. It shows constantly if you watch the games. They were open, they couldn't knock down the shot. Sometimes there was a better chance of scoring if MJ took the shot even if he was contested. When they were good enough, it took a while for MJ to trust'em. But it's says more bad than it is. If you watch the games, he was no blackhole. He passed the ball. He played off the ball plenty of times or played point. There were key moments where he wouldn't pass the ball tho.

And the Pistons knew his teammates weren't good enough. And wanted him to pass.



"Anybody but him," Laimbeer says. "He was not going to beat us. That was the Jordan rules. We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires. And you can't win championships like that, with only one player."

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-jordan-rules-what-the-last-dance-documentary-doesnt-say-about-pistons-defense-against-michael-jordan/

[Bronbron23]

"Bron ball" is not taking 25-30 field goal attempts per game on 5 assists and that's what Jordan did before Phil Jackson.

Bron ball is finding the mismatch and exploiting it whether scoring directly or with an assist to an open teammate or a hockey assist and not favoring one over the other but going with whatever is the best option on that play based on what the defense presents.

The point of getting the ball out of Jordan's hands was so that the ball can find open teammates because Jordan wasn't going to do it.

And as you already know LeBron is the king of finding open teammates.

Jordan favored individual scoring first and foremost even if other options were better choices <<<<< This is why Jackson wanted the ball out of his hands

Nah dude you don't know what your talking about. Bron ball isn't about scoring necessarily it's about dominating the ball. Always having the ball in your hand. That compared to team ball like the the triangle where the ball moves and everyone gets involved.

If bron played non bron ball like he did in miami his stats would be leas than what they've been since miami.

[Shooter]

Why did it take so long for MJ to realize Bron Ball is superior?