Top 25 Point Guards of All-Time Voting Part 1: Players 1-5

[L.Kizzle]

We have now moved on to the last position of the Top 25, the POINT GUARD position.

A total of 30 SGs received votes. Of those 30, we came up with the Top 25 Shooting Guards of All-Time.

Select and rank the five greatest POINT GUARDS of All-Time. A 48 Hour window will be given to make your choices or debate why said player should or shouldn’t be here. After 48 Hours, the top five will be selected and another five will be added to the pool of players.


Players to Choose From:
Bob Cousy
Chris Paul
Dave Bing
Derrick Rose
Gary Payton
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
John Stockton
‘Magic’ Johnson
Nate ‘Tiny’ Archibald
Oscar Robertson
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry
Steve Nash
Walt Frazier


Top 25 SHOOTING GUARDS of All-Time as voted on by ISH
1 Michael Jordan
2 Kobe Bryant
3 Jerry West
4 Dwyane Wade
5 James Harden
6 Allen Iverson
7 George Gervin
8 Clyde Drexler
9 Joe Dumars
10 Ray Allen
11 Tracy McGrady
12 Reggie Miller
13 Vince Carter
14 Sam Jones
15 Hal Greer
16 Manu Ginobili
17 Pistol Pete Maravich
18 David Thompson
19 Klay Thompson
20 Sidney Moncrief
21 Mitch Richmond
22 Gail Goodrich
23 Earl Monroe
24 Bill Sharman
25 Joe Johnson


Voting Results
Number of Voters - 4
Number of Players Receiving Votes - 10


Mitch Richmond (3) 2nd Place / (1) 3rd Place = 26 Points
Gail Goodrich (2) 1st Place / (1) 5th Place = 21 Points
Earl Monroe (1) 1st Place / (1) 2nd Place / (1) 4th Place = 20 Points
Bill Sharman (1) 1st Place / (1) 5th Place = 11 Points
Joe Johnson (2) 3rd Place = 10 Points
Paul Westphal (1) 3rd Place / (1) 4th Place = 8 Points
Walter Davis (1) 4th Place = 3 Points
Alvin Robertson (1) 4th Place = 3 Points
Rolando Blackmon (1) 5th Place = 1 Point
Latrell Sprewell (1) 5th Place = 1 Point


Voting Criteria
Five Seasons or more played in the NBA
1st = 10 Pts
2nd = 7 Pts
3rd = 5 Pts
4th = 3 Pts
5th = 1 Pt

Top-25-Shooting-Guards-of-All-Time-Voting-Part-5-Players-21-25 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?487507-Top-25-Shooting-Guards-of-All-Time-Voting-Part-5-Players-21-25)

[And1AllDay]

magic
oscar
curry
paul
isiah

[RRR3]

Magic
Oscar
Curry
CP3
Nash

[72-10]

ftr the 2 guards list is royally askew and I say this with a grain of salt

Earvin "Magic" Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Isiah Thomas (your Detroit Pistons)
Stephen Curry
John Stockton

where's the chuck diesel

[SouBeachTalents]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Curry
4. Isiah
5. CP3

[Phoenix]

Magic
Oscar
Curry
Isiah
CP3

[ELITEpower23]

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Chris Paul
5. Isiah Thomas

[8Ball]

Magic
Steph curry
Chris paul
Oscar robinson
Steve nash

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Magic Johnson
Stephen Curry
Oscar Robertson
Isiah Thomas
Steve Nash

[Derka]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. Curry
5. Nash

[Manny98]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. CP3
4. Oscar
5. Nash

[Doranku]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar
4. Isiah
5. Nash

[L.Kizzle]

Magic
Steph curry
Chris paul
Oscar robinson
Steve nash
Who He Play For? Lol.

[Phoenix]

Interesting that Nash is getting more love than guys like Stockton and Kidd.

[TheGreatKabuki]

#1) Magic
#2) Curry
#3) Stockton
#4) Westbrook
#5) Paul

[theballerFKA Ace]

Magic
Curry
Oscar
Isiah
Stockton

[1987_Lakers]

1. Magic
2. Robertson
3. Curry
4. CP3
5. Nash

[Kiddlovesnets]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. Curry
5. Cousy

[999Guy]

What the hell did Isiah Thomas do better than Chris Paul on a basketball court?

[WhiteKyrie]

1) Magic
2) Zeke
3) Curry
4) CP3
5) Kidd


What the hell did Isiah Thomas do better than Chris Paul on a basketball court?
Takeover the game scoring. Toughness. Durability. Team leadership. More clutch. All made him more successful and better.

[999Guy]

1) Magic
2) Zeke
3) Curry
4) CP3
5) Kidd


Takeover the game scoring. Toughness. Durability. Team leadership. More clutch. All made him more successful and better.

Takeover scoring? As a worse scorer.

Toughness? Team leadership? More clutch?

Toughness, really? Chris Paul is a guy I see people bitch and moan about being dirty, for years. Has actually gotten into fights. In general the most psychopathically competitive I’ve played of the era to me by far. But loses on toughness to Mr. kiss Magic on the lips? Stfu.

Chris Paul’s a guy who people genuinely believe wants to win too much, but all these intangible go against him?
Clutch has no argument at all. CP3’s been a great closer for a decade. Simply being himself in a 4th quarter is better than Isiah Thomas, being that he is gonna be playing better throughout a game because he is better.

Thomas doesn’t even have bullshit single moments over Chris Paul. Like Paul has more game winners and big shots, even with worse rosters and coaching to prevent him from playing in so many games.

And I disagree with pretty much all of this. Maybe even the durability shit. His career ended early. CP3 is an all-time 35 year old.

His big career moment is a limp game. He has no real argument. Just idiots that look at team championships.

This horseshit argument can be made against pretty much anybody. No substance to it.

[RRR3]

Takeover scoring? As a worse scorer.

Toughness? Team leadership? More clutch?

Toughness, really? Chris Paul is a guy I see people bitch and moan about being dirty, for years. Has actually gotten into fights. In general the most psychopathically competitive I’ve played of the era to me by far. But loses on toughness to Mr. kiss Magic on the lips? Stfu.

Chris Paul’s a guy who people genuinely believe wants to win too much, but all these intangible go against him?
Clutch has no argument at all. CP3’s been a great closer for a decade. Simply being himself in a 4th quarter is better than Isiah Thomas, being that he is gonna be playing better throughout a game because he is better.

Thomas doesn’t even have bullshit single moments over Chris Paul. Like Paul has more game winners and big shots, even with worse rosters and coaching to prevent him from playing in so many games.

And I disagree with pretty much all of this. Maybe even the durability shit. His career ended early. CP3 is an all-time 35 year old.

His big career moment is a limp game. He has no real argument. Just idiots that look at team championships.

This horseshit argument can be made against pretty much anybody. No substance to it.
:applause: :applause: :applause:


People really think CP3 wouldn’t have won rings on that Pistons team lmaoooo

[iamgine]

Takeover scoring? As a worse scorer.

Toughness? Team leadership? More clutch?

Toughness, really? Chris Paul is a guy I see people bitch and moan about being dirty, for years. Has actually gotten into fights. In general the most psychopathically competitive I’ve played of the era to me by far. But loses on toughness to Mr. kiss Magic on the lips? Stfu.

Chris Paul’s a guy who people genuinely believe wants to win too much, but all these intangible go against him?
Clutch has no argument at all. CP3’s been a great closer for a decade. Simply being himself in a 4th quarter is better than Isiah Thomas, being that he is gonna be playing better throughout a game because he is better.

Thomas doesn’t even have bullshit single moments over Chris Paul. Like Paul has more game winners and big shots, even with worse rosters and coaching to prevent him from playing in so many games.

And I disagree with pretty much all of this. Maybe even the durability shit. His career ended early. CP3 is an all-time 35 year old.

His big career moment is a limp game. He has no real argument. Just idiots that look at team championships.

This horseshit argument can be made against pretty much anybody. No substance to it.
Better doesn't equal greater though, sometimes far from it. Jrue Holiday is 1000x better than Bob Cousy but clearly 1000x less great.

[Doranku]

Takeover scoring? As a worse scorer.

Toughness? Team leadership? More clutch?

Toughness, really? Chris Paul is a guy I see people bitch and moan about being dirty, for years. Has actually gotten into fights. In general the most psychopathically competitive I’ve played of the era to me by far. But loses on toughness to Mr. kiss Magic on the lips? Stfu.

Chris Paul’s a guy who people genuinely believe wants to win too much, but all these intangible go against him?
Clutch has no argument at all. CP3’s been a great closer for a decade. Simply being himself in a 4th quarter is better than Isiah Thomas, being that he is gonna be playing better throughout a game because he is better.

Thomas doesn’t even have bullshit single moments over Chris Paul. Like Paul has more game winners and big shots, even with worse rosters and coaching to prevent him from playing in so many games.

And I disagree with pretty much all of this. Maybe even the durability shit. His career ended early. CP3 is an all-time 35 year old.

His big career moment is a limp game. He has no real argument. Just idiots that look at team championships.

This horseshit argument can be made against pretty much anybody. No substance to it.

CP3's big career moment is getting decked in the face by Rondo or losing to Melo in the playoffs at home by 58. :oldlol:

[pegasus]

Magic
Curry
Stockton
Nash
Zeke

[Doranku]

:applause: :applause: :applause:


People really think CP3 wouldn’t have won rings on that Pistons team lmaoooo

CP3 couldn't even get past the 2nd round as his team's best player, LMFAO at thinking he's gonna take out prime Jordan in '89 and '90 like Isiah did.

[dankok8]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Curry
4. Thomas
5. Nash

[999Guy]

CP3 couldn't even get past the 2nd round as his team's best player, LMFAO at thinking he's gonna take out prime Jordan in '89 and '90 like Isiah did.

You realize this makes you look dumb to say? You clearly don’t care about being logical, so why even try to have an opinion? Just say you don’t like Chris Paul, why feel like it’s your job to be an unreasonable dumbass on a topic involving him?

[999Guy]

Better doesn't equal greater though, sometimes far from it. Jrue Holiday is 1000x better than Bob Cousy but clearly 1000x less great.

Then “great” means shit.

[999Guy]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1989-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html

And btw these are the series Chris Paul couldn’t play to the level of according to doranku


20/8 on 39/16/73 splits in 89

17/8 on 39/33/83 in 90


Rookie Chris Paul would’ve won on those teams. I really believe every single year of his career, he is getting past that team. Not a single season he’s played yet, he can’t play at least as good as Isiah on those title teams.

[dankok8]

I'm happy staying on the sidelines of this argument because it's been done before but Chris Paul is definitely not a better basketball player (nor more accomplished obviously...) than Isiah Thomas. Most people with such an opinion have never watched Isiah play or are very knowledgeable about the history of the game. Isiah was literally the anti-CP3. He came up huge in pivotal moments whereas CP3 came up small. The team results speak for themselves.

[999Guy]

I'm happy staying on the sidelines of this argument because it's been done before but Chris Paul is definitely not a better basketball player (nor more accomplished obviously...) than Isiah Thomas. Most people with such an opinion have never watched Isiah play or are very knowledgeable about the history of the game. Isiah was literally the anti-CP3. He came up huge in pivotal moments whereas CP3 came up small. The team results speak for themselves.Repeating something doesn’t make it true.

Say something I wouldn’t hear from a dumbass like Skip Bayless. Or an idiot middle aged former player who would’ve stayed away from the 3pt line because he was also told to.

For your own sake. You’ve added absolutely nothing to this discussion now or in the future.

[999Guy]

Like did you just announce Isiah Thomas has rings and Chris Paul doesn’t...and thought it needed to be said? Thats the sum total of what you can add to something like a player comparison.

***** why don’t you say what colleges they played for? Height?

Isiah Thomas’s name is Isiah Thomas. Chris Paul’s name is Chris Paul. Also some people say Isiah Thomas is better than Chris Paul. Okay bye.

[TheCorporation]

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Chris Paul
5. Isiah Thomas

+1 dead on :cheers:

[TheCorporation]

I'm happy staying on the sidelines of this argument because it's been done before but Chris Paul is definitely not a better basketball player (nor more accomplished obviously...) than Isiah Thomas. Most people with such an opinion have never watched Isiah play or are very knowledgeable about the history of the game. Isiah was literally the anti-CP3. He came up huge in pivotal moments whereas CP3 came up small. The team results speak for themselves.

You are CLEARLY a low IQ fan

[dankok8]

Repeating something doesn’t make it true.

Say something I wouldn’t hear from a dumbass like Skip Bayless. Or an idiot middle aged former player who would’ve stayed away from the 3pt line because he was also told to.

For your own sake. You’ve added absolutely nothing to this discussion now or in the future.

Why don't you make an argument? You're taking a guy who never took his team past the 2nd round past a guy who won 2 titles and almost won 3... And both have similar stats. It's not like Paul outproduces Thomas in terms of raw numbers in the playoffs. What's the reasoning?

[1987_Lakers]

If you are breaking down CP3 & Isiah as players, CP3 has less holes in his game, much better defender, better shooter, & overall a more efficient scorer, the only thing Isiah has over CP3 is rings, CP3 has made more All-NBA Teams, he has the longevity edge over Isiah and peak wise many consider his '08 & '09 seasons to be top 5 ever at the PG spot. I don't think Isiah's back to back rings is enough for me to put him over CP3 considering as a straight basketball player, CP3 was better. Put CP3 on those bad boy pistons teams and they don't miss a beat.

[dankok8]

If you are breaking down CP3 & Isiah as players, CP3 has less holes in his game, much better defender, better shooter, & overall a more efficient scorer, the only thing Isiah has over CP3 is rings, CP3 has made more All-NBA Teams, he has the longevity edge over Isiah and peak wise many consider his '08 & '09 seasons to be top 5 ever at the PG spot. I don't think Isiah's back to back rings is enough for me to put him over CP3 considering as a straight basketball player, CP3 was better. Put CP3 on those bad boy pistons teams and they don't miss a beat.

Doing more things well doesn't make you a better player. If Paul is on those Pistons teams I think they are perennial 2nd round fodder first to the Celtics then MJ's Bulls. Just like Paul led talented Clipper teams exactly nowhere he'd lead those Pistons exactly nowhere. And that's nothing to be ashamed of. Players better than Paul like Barkley, Malone and Nique couldn't make a dent in that late 80's and early 90's NBA in terms of team success.

What have you seen from Chris Paul that makes you believe he would beat Bird's Celtics or Jordan's Bulls even one year in the postseason? Because I saw nothing that would make me believe that.

[L.Kizzle]

If you are breaking down CP3 & Isiah as players, CP3 has less holes in his game, much better defender, better shooter, & overall a more efficient scorer, the only thing Isiah has over CP3 is rings, CP3 has made more All-NBA Teams, he has the longevity edge over Isiah and peak wise many consider his '08 & '09 seasons to be top 5 ever at the PG spot. I don't think Isiah's back to back rings is enough for me to put him over CP3 considering as a straight basketball player, CP3 was better. Put CP3 on those bad boy pistons teams and they don't miss a beat.
If that is the case, you can just swap any perennial All-Stars with each other and expect the same results. But it doesn't always work that way.

[1987_Lakers]

Doing more things well doesn't make you a better player. If Paul is on those Pistons teams I think they are perennial 2nd round fodder first to the Celtics then MJ's Bulls. Just like Paul led talented Clipper teams exactly nowhere he'd lead those Pistons exactly nowhere. And that's nothing to be ashamed of. Players better than Paul like Barkley, Malone and Nique couldn't make a dent in that late 80's and early 90's NBA in terms of team success.

What have you seen from Chris Paul that makes you believe he would beat Bird's Celtics or Jordan's Bulls even one year in the postseason? Because I saw nothing that would make me believe that.

The problem is you are going by strictly opinion, not fact. When you look at their postseason production, they are pretty identical across the board, except for the fact that CP3 is more efficient and gives you defense. Those Bad Boy Detroit teams' identity was defense, CP3 would have fit in perfectly with that team. It's not like Isiah was totally dominating teams when he won championships, he averaged 19/5/8 on 44% shooting during his '89 & '90 postseason run, not bad by any means, but CP3 could easily match that production and then some.

Those Detroit teams along with having a terrific defense, were insanely deep, especially the '89 team. Their 9th man James Edwards would have been a legit starter on some bad teams, even a 6th man on some decent teams. And when they won in '89 they had one of the easiest paths to a championship ever, the Celtics were without Bird that entire year, the Bulls were still a one man team, & in the Finals the Lakers lost Magic Johnson & Byron Scott to injury.

To say they would have been a 2nd round exit if you replaced Isiah with CP3 is pretty delusional if you ask me.

[Young X]

Isiah is not even close to CP3. He was not an MVP-caliber player.

He won championships on a Pistons team that had 5 all-star-level players and 2 other hall of famers. He was 13th and 17th in MVP voting in '89 and '90.

In the 1989 run, he shot 41% from the field and the Pistons still won. You cannot compare their team success, CP3 is much more valuable to his teams than Isiah.

[RRR3]

Isiah is not even close to CP3. He was not an MVP-caliber player.

He won championships on a Pistons team that had 5 all-star-level players and 2 other hall of famers. He was 13th and 17th in MVP voting in '89 and '90.

In the 1989 run, he shot 41% from the field and the Pistons still won. You cannot compare their team success, CP3 is much more valuable to his teams than Isiah.
RRRRRRRANGGGGGGZZZZZZ DOEEEEE!!!! ALPHA MALE CLUTCH JEAN KILLAH INSTINK ASSASSIN DOE ICE COLD RUFF TUFF 80s MAN’S GAME!!!!!-ISH arguments for Isiah over CP3

[Hakkim90cc]

Magic
Curry
Jkidd
Stockton
GP

[L.Kizzle]

Isiah is not even close to CP3. He was not an MVP-caliber player.

He won championships on a Pistons team that had 5 all-star-level players and 2 other hall of famers. He was 13th and 17th in MVP voting in '89 and '90.

In the 1989 run, he shot 41% from the field and the Pistons still won. You cannot compare their team success, CP3 is much more valuable to his teams than Isiah.
You do know why Zeke was getting low MVP votes by the late 80s? They weren't liked in the media.

The dua of Mark Price and Brad Daughtry got more votes than Zeke in 89.

Before they were the Bad Boys
Rookie season 17
2nd season 16
3rd season 5
4 season 9
5 season 9
6 season 8
7 season 12

The more they won, the nastier they played, the less recognition he got.

You're telling ATL Moses Malone and Mark Eaton were more valuable than Thomas?

[RRR3]

People who are not listing Oscar shouldn’t have their list counted. That is straight up blasphemy and completely ignorant.

[Smoke117]

LMFAO...was Joe Dumars really voted the 9th best sg of all time on here? Jesus. Iverson at 6 is also a joke, but Dumars at 9 is bust out loud laughable. There is not one legitimate argument for him being over Ray Allen or even the next three guys after him.

[Hakkim90cc]

People who list players that they've never watched should get slapped around and be forced to watch men's volleyball.

**** you

[Young X]

You do know why Zeke was getting low MVP votes by the late 80s? They weren't liked in the media.

The dua of Mark Price and Brad Daughtry got more votes than Zeke in 89.

Before they were the Bad Boys
Rookie season 17
2nd season 16
3rd season 5
4 season 9
5 season 9
6 season 8
7 season 12

The more they won, the nastier they played, the less recognition he got.

You're telling ATL Moses Malone and Mark Eaton were more valuable than Thomas?
Or maybe it's because Mark Price actually had a better season. Shooting an unbelievable 53/44/90.

Mark Price also made the All-NBA 3rd team over Isiah.

Isiah's own teammate Joe Dumars also made the All-NBA 3rd team over him.

Joe Dumars and Dennis Rodman made the All-NBA defensive 1st team. Isiah never made an All-Defensive team. Rodman won DPOY in 1990 and 1991.

So it wasn't just anti-Pistons bias.

The real answer is the Pistons were an ensemble team like the 2014 Spurs and Isiah gets all the credit.

[TheCorporation]

Magic
Curry
Jkidd
Stockton
GP

Oscar Robertson

Try again

[RRR3]

LMFAO...was Joe Dumars really voted the 9th best sg of all time on here? Jesus. Iverson at 6 is also a joke, but Dumars at 9 is bust out loud laughable. There is not one legitimate argument for him being over Ray Allen or even the next three guys after him.
There’s a reason they laugh at us on realgm.

[1987_Lakers]

You do know why Zeke was getting low MVP votes by the late 80s? They weren't liked in the media.

The dua of Mark Price and Brad Daughtry got more votes than Zeke in 89.


Yea, Isiah averaging only 19/3/8 on 46% shooting during those years didn't help his cause, he was far from an MVP candidate. MJ, Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, Ewing, K. Malone, & rookie David Robinson were all better players than Isiah by that point.

[Smoke117]

There’s a reason they laugh at us on realgm.

This is why I haven't bothered voting in any of these. So few here actually know anything about basketball so it is pointless anyway.

[1987_Lakers]

There’s a reason they laugh at us on realgm.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1971813

68% CP3
32% Isiah

[RRR3]

There are people on this site who don’t think Oscar Robertson is a top 5 PG of all time. ISH :facepalm

[Hakkim90cc]

Oscar Robertson

Try again

You're like 18 brobro do you even know how oscar looks like

[RRR3]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1971813

68% CP3
32% Isiah
The only way it could possibly be a debate is if Thomas was significantly better at defense. I don’t think anyone thinks he was, so I’m really not sure what’s the argument besides “RRRRRRRANGZ DOE!”

[Smoke117]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1971813

68% CP3
32% Isiah

Thomas had some nice playoff heroics, but game in game out, Chris Paul is clearly a much higher impact player. If you threw each of them in their primes on a 30 win team and said get them to the playoffs, you are going to have a much, much better chance of that under Chris Paul than you are Isiah Thomas.

[iamgine]

Then “great” means shit.

Well this thread is asking to rank greatness, not who's the best.

[L.Kizzle]

There’s a reason they laugh at us on realgm.
Didn't RealGM rank KG over Larry Bird?

[L.Kizzle]

Or maybe it's because Mark Price actually had a better season. Shooting an unbelievable 53/44/90.

Mark Price also made the All-NBA 3rd team over Isiah.

Isiah's own teammate Joe Dumars also made the All-NBA 3rd team over him.

Joe Dumars and Dennis Rodman made the All-NBA defensive 1st team. Isiah never made an All-Defensive team. Rodman won DPOY in 1990 and 1991.

So it wasn't just anti-Pistons bias.

The real answer is the Pistons were an ensemble team like the 2014 Spurs and Isiah gets all the credit.
Okay, so him AND Brad D over Isiah.
Isiah never made an All NBA team after 87. That's straight bias.
The defacto leader and best player on 2 back to back championship teams doesn't make an ALL-NBA team the 3 seasons they make the Finals.
Because .....

[Young X]

Okay, so him AND Brad D over Isiah.
Isiah never made an All NBA team after 87. That's straight bias.
The defacto leader and best player on 2 back to back championship teams doesn't make an ALL-NBA team the 3 seasons they make the Finals.
Because .....
Because there were a bunch of guards playing better than he was? Isiah was great but he was doing nothing special during those years.

[WhiteKyrie]

LMFAO...was Joe Dumars really voted the 9th best sg of all time on here? Jesus. Iverson at 6 is also a joke, but Dumars at 9 is bust out loud laughable. There is not one legitimate argument for him being over Ray Allen or even the next three guys after him.
Calm your Ray Allen fanboy-ism down. 10th is respectable and appropriate. He wasn’t better than anyone ranked by ISH above him. The only one I could conceivably rank Ray Allen over is Joe Dumars and even that is a stretch.

19 ppg, 3 apg on 45%
2x Champ

vs

16 ppg, 5 apg on 46%
2x Champ
Finals MVP
5x All Defense Teams (4x First Team)

Joe Dumars was the second best player on his championship teams. Ray Allen was at best, third.

Also, for somebody who loves quality defensive players like D-Rob and Pippen, while simultaneously slobbing Ray Allen’s knob when he was a notoriously shit defender for much of his career is extremely amusing.

So the ISH SG list is near perfectly rated. Even down to West over Wade, due to longevity.

[iamgine]

Okay, so him AND Brad D over Isiah.
Isiah never made an All NBA team after 87. That's straight bias.
The defacto leader and best player on 2 back to back championship teams doesn't make an ALL-NBA team the 3 seasons they make the Finals.
Because .....

All NBA is regular season though. With the emergence of John Stockton and Isiah's declining regular season play, it doesn't have to be bias.

If he made it just because he won championships, then that would be bias.

[Smoke117]

Calm your Ray Allen fanboy-ism down. 10th is respectable and appropriate. He wasn’t better than anyone ranked by ISH above him. The only one I could conceivably rank Ray Allen over is Joe Dumars and even that is a stretch.

19 ppg, 3 apg on 45%
2x Champ

vs

16 ppg, 5 apg on 46%
2x Champ
Finals MVP
5x All Defense Teams (4x First Team)

Joe Dumars was the second best player on his championship teams. Ray Allen was at best, third.

Also, for somebody who loves quality defensive players like D-Rob and Pippen, while simultaneously slobbing Ray Allen’s knob when he was a notoriously shit defender for much of his career is extremely amusing.

So the ISH SG list is near perfectly rated. Even down to West over Wade, due to longevity.

Joe Dumars is legitimately one of the most overrated defensive players ever. He was a good one on one defensive player, but he was nothing special overall impact wise. As a team/help defender he was meh. Michael Jordan was the other one making the first team all defensive team in these years and he was far, far more impactful. Someone like Dwyane Wade in his prime was a much more impactful overall defender than Joe Dumars and he has no first team all defensive teams. Those all nba defensive teams he has mean squat. Lets take a look at the 1992 season where he was first team all defensive. Pistons were 6th in drating with a 105.6. Rodman was an impressive 99. Joe Dumars? He was a team worst 110. First team all defensive, though. For comparison sake, Bulls were 4th with a 104.2. Jordan? He was a 102. See the difference?

[L.Kizzle]

All NBA is regular season though. With the emergence of John Stockton and Isiah's declining regular season play, it doesn't have to be bias.

If he made it just because he won championships, then that would be bias.
Stockton, Price, Timmy Hardaway, KJ. I think Fat Lever made it over him one season.
17/6 Tony Parker as the 2nd (or 3rd best) Spur is making All-NBA 2nd Teams
But 19/9 Zeke (around his avg from 88-90, his 3 NBA Finals Teams) as the best player can't make any team?

Avg go down a little, teams get better but does not the make All-NBA Teams.

[72-10]

People who are not listing Isiah shouldn’t have their list counted. That is straight up blasphemy and completely ignorant.

:applause: improved

[TheCorporation]

You're like 18 brobro do you even know how oscar looks like

Join Date: 2020 :lol

Foh kiddo

[iamgine]

Stockton, Price, Timmy Hardaway, KJ. I think Fat Lever made it over him one season.
17/6 Tony Parker as the 2nd (or 3rd best) Spur is making All-NBA 2nd Teams
But 19/9 Zeke (around his avg from 88-90, his 3 NBA Finals Teams) as the best player can't make any team?

Avg go down a little, teams get better but dors the make All-NBA Teams.
It's not a slight decline though. He went from 22 PER in '85 to 17 PER in '89.

Just cause Tony Parker made it, doesn't mean everyone else should. Maybe Tony's selection is the biased one?

[Hakkim90cc]

Join Date: 2020 :lol

Foh kiddo

Im old enough to be your father

'Lefam general' lmao

[TheCorporation]

There are people on this site who don’t think Oscar Robertson is a top 5 PG of all time. ISH :facepalm

+1

[TheCorporation]

Im old enough to be your father

'Lefam general' lmao

Join Date: 2020

Shhhhh

[Hakkim90cc]

Join Date: 2020

Shhhhh

Over 10,000 posts...you win...

Carry on lefam general:lol

[TheCorporation]

Over 10,000 posts...you win...

Carry on lefam general:lol

Thank you my son. You're new here , yeah?

Read more, post less.

Learn from those that have been here.

[L.Kizzle]

It's not a slight decline though. He went from 22 PER in '85 to 17 PER in '89.

Just cause Tony Parker made it, doesn't mean everyone else should. Maybe Tony's selection is the biased one?
Damn near every HOF center put up better numbers than Bill Russell. Not only Wilt, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, etc. Better numbers doesn't mean you're a better player. We all know this. Tim Hardaway putting up 23/10 shouldn't make him better than Zeke. Zeke is leading his team to the Finals.

Walt Bellamy was putting up 32/20. Russell was doing 18/23. Numbers can be misleading sometimes.

[Hakkim90cc]

Thank you my son. You're new here , yeah?

Read more, post less.

Learn from those that have been here.

Okay geek

[WhiteKyrie]

Joe Dumars is legitimately one of the most overrated defensive players ever. He was a good one on one defensive player, but he was nothing special overall impact wise. As a team/help defender he was meh. Michael Jordan was the other one making the first team all defensive team in these years and he was far, far more impactful. Someone like Dwyane Wade in his prime was a much more impactful overall defender than Joe Dumars and he has no first team all defensive teams. Those all nba defensive teams he has mean squat. Lets take a look at the 1992 season where he was first team all defensive. Pistons were 6th in drating with a 105.6. Rodman was an impressive 99. Joe Dumars? He was a team worst 110. First team all defensive, though. For comparison sake, Bulls were 4th with a 104.2. Jordan? He was a 102. See the difference?
Yea Joe Dumars was a quality defender, with the accolades and resume to back it.

Ray Allen was a shit defender who scored 3 more PPG career wise, two less assist per game on essentially the same FG efficiency. And was a clear cut vastly inferior defensive player.

Your meltdown doesn't matter.

Ray Allen is at best 9th or 10th best SG of all-time. So he's very accurately rated by ISH on the all time SG ranking.

[1987_Lakers]

Damn near every HOF center put up better numbers than Bill Russell. Not only Wilt, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, etc. Better numbers doesn't mean you're a better player. We all know this. Tim Hardaway putting up 23/10 shouldn't make him better than Zeke. Zeke is leading his team to the Finals.

Walt Bellamy was putting up 32/20. Russell was doing 18/23. Numbers can be misleading sometimes.
Russell is a bad example, he's the most impactful defender in NBA history.

[iamgine]

Damn near every HOF center put up better numbers than Bill Russell. Not only Wilt, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, etc. Better numbers doesn't mean you're a better player. We all know this. Tim Hardaway putting up 23/10 shouldn't make him better than Zeke. Zeke is leading his team to the Finals.

Walt Bellamy was putting up 32/20. Russell was doing 18/23. Numbers can be misleading sometimes.
Numbers can be misleading but is it in this case?

All NBA is regular season, usually for the performer of that season. Got nothing to do with finals.

[tanibanana]

S. Curry
M. Johnson
S. Nash
C. Paul
O. Robertson

(I intentionally re-arrange my ranking to boost some votes on Curry, as he is poorly rated by some, opposite thing with Oscar, even I really have him at 3rd).

[Smoke117]

Okay, so him AND Brad D over Isiah.
Isiah never made an All NBA team after 87. That's straight bias.
The defacto leader and best player on 2 back to back championship teams doesn't make an ALL-NBA team the 3 seasons they make the Finals.
Because .....

Because there were guards having better seasons on good teams. It's pretty much as simple as that. Looking at the list of who was making the teams nothing is particularly jarring to look at. Jordan, Magic, Stockton, and Drexler are easy first and 2nd teams over Thomas. You also bring up someone like Kevin Johnson when he had a far superior season to Thomas in 1990. I don't really care about the 3rd team as to me that doesn't mean shit as an accolade. Nobody cares about All NBA Teams after first and 2nd.

[Reggie43]

Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Curry
Stockton

[L.Kizzle]

S. Curry
M. Johnson
S. Nash
C. Paul
O. Robertson

(I intentionally re-arrange my ranking to boost some votes on Curry, as he is poorly rated by some, opposite thing with Oscar, even I really have him at 3rd).
I don't think Steph needs a boost vote. Looking at the votes so far, he'll be 2nd or 3rd.

[L.Kizzle]

Numbers can be misleading but is it in this case?

All NBA is regular season, usually for the performer of that season. Got nothing to do with finals.

We all know the only reasons Price/Tim/KJ were getting picked before Isiah was because of 2 more points and 2 more assist basicslly.
Yet, no one would pick them to lead their team over Isiah.

[Round Mound]

1-Magic
2-Oscar
3-Isiah
4-Fraizer
5-Stockton

[L.Kizzle]

Tim Hardaway has the same amount of All-NBA teams as Isiah Thomas.

[Celtics 1825]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Stockton
4. Oscar
5. Zeke

[iamgine]

We all know the only reasons Price/Tim/KJ were getting picked before Isiah was because of 2 more points and 2 more assist basicslly.
Yet, no one would pick them to lead their team over Isiah.

Could be, but that's not straight bias though.

[L.Kizzle]

Could be, but that's not straight bias though.
1988 Pistons reach NBA Finals, one All-Star (Isiah). No All-NBA team players or All-Defensive team members.

1989 Pistons. Best record on NBA by a lot.. NBA champs. One All-Star (Isiah) no All-NBA team members. 2 All-D teasers.

1990 Pistons. Three All-Stars (obviously they can't keep holding them back) 2 All-D teamers and the DPOY. Joe Dumars is the lone All-NBA teamer (yet everyone knows that's Isiahs team ...)

[Jasper]

Players I Chose :

Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
John Stockton
‘Magic’ Johnson
Oscar Robertson

[L.Kizzle]

Players I Chose :

Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
John Stockton
‘Magic’ Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Is that your order?
Needs to be ranked 1-5.

[RRR3]

:applause: improved
I’m going to mark you down as the dumbest poster on this site if you think Isiah Thomas was better than Oscar Robertson.

[dankok8]

The problem is you are going by strictly opinion, not fact. When you look at their postseason production, they are pretty identical across the board, except for the fact that CP3 is more efficient and gives you defense. Those Bad Boy Detroit teams' identity was defense, CP3 would have fit in perfectly with that team. It's not like Isiah was totally dominating teams when he won championships, he averaged 19/5/8 on 44% shooting during his '89 & '90 postseason run, not bad by any means, but CP3 could easily match that production and then some.

Those Detroit teams along with having a terrific defense, were insanely deep, especially the '89 team. Their 9th man James Edwards would have been a legit starter on some bad teams, even a 6th man on some decent teams. And when they won in '89 they had one of the easiest paths to a championship ever, the Celtics were without Bird that entire year, the Bulls were still a one man team, & in the Finals the Lakers lost Magic Johnson & Byron Scott to injury.

To say they would have been a 2nd round exit if you replaced Isiah with CP3 is pretty delusional if you ask me.

It's not opinion. I've watched plenty of Isiah and heard testimony about his heart, his perseverance, his leadership and his clutch ability. I saw all of that with my own eyes too. Then I've seen Paul puke all over himself in big moments constantly underachieving. Getting injured every second postseason. Raw talent wise can you say CP3 is better than Isiah? Sure... In terms of actual results not even close. Here is a list of teams CP3 lost to in the playoffs as the best player all of them in the 1st or 2nd round... 2008 Spurs, 2009 Nuggets, 2011 Lakers, 2012 Spurs, 2013 Grizzlies, 2014 Thunder, 2015 Rockets, 2016 Blazers, 2017 Jazz. Not many elite teams on that list. Fun fact... every single one of those teams lost in the very next round!

In terms of raw talent, many teams in that era could rival the Pistons. Just a few examples... The Jazz had Malone, Stockton, Thurl Bailey, Mark Eaton, Darrell Griffith, Kelly Tripucka... never got out of the 2nd round in the late 80's. Hawks had Dominique, Roc Rivers, Kevin Willis, Randy Whitman, Antoine Carr, Tree Rollins, Spud Webb... never out of the 2nd round.

Then there is Kizzle pointing out that no one except Isiah made the ASG for the Pistons in 1988 and 1989. Looking at only stats is ignorant. Isiah obviously had a good cast but he elevated them to become that. Giving a Conference Final virgin the nod over Isiah is blasphemous to me. Isiah performed when it mattered most. CP3 didn't.

[And1AllDay]

Players I Chose :

Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
John Stockton
‘Magic’ Johnson
Oscar Robertson

you forgot curry old head :oldlol: redo that weak shit

[dankok8]

EDIT: The Nuggets in 2009 made it two rounds later. They are the only ones.

[iamgine]

1988 Pistons reach NBA Finals, one All-Star (Isiah). No All-NBA team players or All-Defensive team members.

1989 Pistons. Best record on NBA by a lot.. NBA champs. One All-Star (Isiah) no All-NBA team members. 2 All-D teasers.

1990 Pistons. Three All-Stars (obviously they can't keep holding them back) 2 All-D teamers and the DPOY. Joe Dumars is the lone All-NBA teamer (yet everyone knows that's Isiahs team ...)

That's suppose to prove....what exactly? Its regular season performer, finals means nothing.

[lilblingy]

My ranking is this:

1. Magic
2. Steph Curry
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Isaiah Thomas
5. Chris Paul

[RRR3]

It's not opinion. I've watched plenty of Isiah and heard testimony about his heart, his perseverance, his leadership and his clutch ability. I saw all of that with my own eyes too. Then I've seen Paul puke all over himself in big moments constantly underachieving. Getting injured every second postseason. Raw talent wise can you say CP3 is better than Isiah? Sure... In terms of actual results not even close. Here is a list of teams CP3 lost to in the playoffs as the best player all of them in the 1st or 2nd round... 2008 Spurs, 2009 Nuggets, 2011 Lakers, 2012 Spurs, 2013 Grizzlies, 2014 Thunder, 2015 Rockets, 2016 Blazers, 2017 Jazz. Not many elite teams on that list. Fun fact... every single one of those teams lost in the very next round!

In terms of raw talent, many teams in that era could rival the Pistons. Just a few examples... The Jazz had Malone, Stockton, Thurl Bailey, Mark Eaton, Darrell Griffith, Kelly Tripucka... never got out of the 2nd round in the late 80's. Hawks had Dominique, Roc Rivers, Kevin Willis, Randy Whitman, Antoine Carr, Tree Rollins, Spud Webb... never out of the 2nd round.

Then there is Kizzle pointing out that no one except Isiah made the ASG for the Pistons in 1988 and 1989. Looking at only stats is ignorant. Isiah obviously had a good cast but he elevated them to become that. Giving a Conference Final virgin the nod over Isiah is blasphemous to me. Isiah performed when it mattered most. CP3 didn't.
The fact that you’re unaware CP3 has played in a conference finals makes it hard to take you seriously.

[BurningHammer]

Magic
Oscar
Curry
Isiah
Nash

[goozeman]

Watch some film on Isiah and pay attention to the quickness combined with his ability to break down a defender with either hand and body control. If Isiah had been a few inches taller, he would have been just like Jordan. The NBA was terrified of him and the way teams defensed him was to beat the hell out of him. This is probably why many of Isiah's most memorable moments occur on plays when Thomas finishes through what would today be deemed flagrant fouls, such as Magic clobbering him in the Finals, Malone giving in 40 stitches, etc. Matter of fact, Detroit probably on some level saw the Jordan Rules as just a natural response to a strategy teams had already employed against Isiah. Chris Paul is certainly a great, but I'd put Isiah just a bit higher due to being a better athlete that could elevate and completely dominate a game with his attacking style of play. Also I believe Isiah's first step might be the best we've ever seen, especially when you factor in his handle and how effective it was off either hand. Paul is a lot like Isiah in that regard, but Isiah was even better.

[Doranku]

Tim Hardaway has the same amount of All-NBA teams as Isiah Thomas.

Sidney Moncrief has more than twice the All-NBA teams that Ray Allen has and Allen is ranked 10 spots higher on the SG list.

[Shooter]

1. Magic
2. Steph Curry
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Isaiah Thomas
5. Chris Paul

[L.Kizzle]

Sidney Moncrief has more than twice the All-NBA teams that Ray Allen has and Allen is ranked 10 spots higher on the SG list.
I was mainly saying that because guys like him, Price, KJ, Stockton were taking his spots on All-NBA teams and he was the one winning championship and the majority would have picked him over all of them.
Hell, KJ mad All-NBA 2nd Team in 89 I think and didn't even make the All-Star team.
Who was picking All-NBA teams back then, media or coaches?

[Dagoods]

How is STEPH better than J. KIDD? What is wrong with you microbes?

[L.Kizzle]

How is STEPH better than J. KIDD? What is wrong with you microbes?
How is Jason Kidd better than Steph Curry?

[dankok8]

The fact that you’re unaware CP3 has played in a conference finals makes it hard to take you seriously.

I said he never played in the the Conference Finals as the best player on his team...

[999Guy]

Watch some film on Isiah and pay attention to the quickness combined with his ability to break down a defender with either hand and body control. If Isiah had been a few inches taller, he would have been just like Jordan.

I love when someone says something stupid but arguable to somebody without passion, and then follows it up with something absolutely dumb to just about anybody.

Isiah Thomas was a few inches away from being LIKE Jordan? As opposed to Chris Paul, a guy with at least as much mental strength and discipline as anybody ever, actual god level coordination and body control, actual elite skill in the history of the sport, whereas Isiah was not even close to any of that, was a actually either a gunner or a pure pass first and never struck a balance like a Paul, Nash or Magic, and was absolutely not even close to an all-time athlete at the PG position.

Prime Eric Bledsoe is at least as athletic as Isiah was. Isiah was flat out not a better athlete than KJ. He’s absolutely not more athletic than John Wall. To say nothing of Russell Westbrook. Greatest first step...holy shit you people are delusional. Willing to claim anything to give some credibility to an overrated reputation.


https://streamable.com/u1kezk

That’s him at 35 after blowing a meniscus and two severe hamstring tears. absolutely no wasted motion, and insane spatial awareness to hit a shot after a spin in game over a 6’8 lanky tweener and then over athletic af Beal.

A 35 year old Chris Paul is EASILY STILL more coordinated and in control than Isiah ever was.

Age 22 to 33 when he had his natural first step, it isn’t even close on the ability to create shots and gain separation.

Peak Isiah is no better than peak John Wall at breaking down a defense and on offense in general. Not even close to CP3 on actually leveraging skills and lifting lineups, and filling in aggression as a scorer when needed.

There’s no play you could run where Isiah is getting a better result than Chris Paul. There’s no player Isiah fits better with. There’s no style he can play better.

[999Guy]

I said he never played in the the Conference Finals as the best player on his team...
He actually did already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3S_8QSPDng

That’s the best player in the series.

41/7/10/3 no turnovers and crushed a DPOY and good athletic perimeter defenders.


That’s a 33 year old on his last hamstrings and really didn’t have the burst he did in LA, to say nothing of NOP.

Declines athletically to a pass first jumpshooting play style and still a top 5 player.

Isiah could and would never.

Against a freakish drop big like Gobert, with Favors as extra help defense? Isiah would’ve been ****ed. Especially if they wore Harden down. Especially at age 32. Didn’t even make to 33. But it’s just food for a CP3.

And idiots forget or don’t even acknowledge this happened because you’ve dumbasses have been trained to bastardize NBA history for fun narratives.

Calling Chris Paul a choker and Isiah Thomas’ inferior on anything involving basketball....Actual disgraces. All you fgts have to do is sit and watch, and you fail at that. Dummies.

[WhiteKyrie]

Watch some film on Isiah and pay attention to the quickness combined with his ability to break down a defender with either hand and body control. If Isiah had been a few inches taller, he would have been just like Jordan. The NBA was terrified of him and the way teams defensed him was to beat the hell out of him. This is probably why many of Isiah's most memorable moments occur on plays when Thomas finishes through what would today be deemed flagrant fouls, such as Magic clobbering him in the Finals, Malone giving in 40 stitches, etc. Matter of fact, Detroit probably on some level saw the Jordan Rules as just a natural response to a strategy teams had already employed against Isiah. Chris Paul is certainly a great, but I'd put Isiah just a bit higher due to being a better athlete that could elevate and completely dominate a game with his attacking style of play. Also I believe Isiah's first step might be the best we've ever seen, especially when you factor in his handle and how effective it was off either hand. Paul is a lot like Isiah in that regard, but Isiah was even better.

Omg someone who watched both and actually knows what they’re talking about.

Still I’m not disrespecting, I have CP3 as easily a top 5 PG. Isaiah was just better. And he played in a more physical league dominated by big men. He was a better natural athlete. Much quicker. He was more durable. Yes, he was a better scorer. He probably willingly sacrificed 3 to 5 points per game accommodating a fellow 20 points per game back court scorer and more by being on a well rounded team.

And Zeke was clutch but LED his team to TWO championships, should’ve been three peat in 88. And defeated all the power houses of the 80s. Bird’s Boston Celtics, Magic’s Showtime Lakers, and the greatest solo act ever in 80s Jordan and the Chicago Jordanaires.

He too was also a good defender. He was basically like an amalgamation of the quickness and speed of Iverson. Ball handling, jumper and craftiness of Kyrie. And the Point God game management of CP3.

[Dagoods]

Kidd was the better facilitator;
Kidd had a better basketball-IQ;
Kidd was a much better passer;
Kidd was the better defender.

Curry? Oh yeah he runs around and shoots 3s in the regular season when they do not count!

[72-10]

I’m going to mark you down as the dumbest poster on this site if you think Isiah Thomas was better than Oscar Robertson.

Isiah was more skilled than Oscar. In fact, Isiah was more skilled than Curry or Chris Paul, for example. I don't think he produced as much on paper, though.:cletus:

[72-10]

Tim Hardaway has the same amount of All-NBA teams as Isiah Thomas.

:roll:

that doesn't say much when it comes to the matchup between Jordan and Isiah...

[72-10]

Kidd was the better facilitator;
Kidd had a better basketball-IQ;
Kidd was a much better passer;
Kidd was the better defender.

Curry? Oh yeah he runs around and shoots 3s in the regular season when they do not count!

The other stuff's true, but Kidd's not a "much better" passer at all, in fact you'd be hard pressed to say he's a better passer at all, but he was the best floor leader and the best at improving his own teammates that maybe ever played. However, Kidd's shooting from the floor is appalling.

[LegendaryBaller]

1) Magic
2) Isiah
3) Curry
4) Nash (would’ve been champs in 2007)
5) Kidd
6) Stockton
7) CP3
8) GP
9) Westbrook
10) Oscar

Would’ve been very interesting to see where Penny Hardaway would have fallen on this all time PG list had not gotten hurt. The consensus is easily Magic as the best point guard ever. Not that Penny was totally on his level as a passer and game manager. But he was close. Had size like Magic no one else at the position has. And he was also a way better athlete, better score, better shooter, and better defender.

[dankok8]

A bizzaro world where tearing your meniscus and your hamstring twice is an excuse. Paul got injured in 5 out of 12 postseasons in his career by my count. That should automatically disqualify him compared to Isiah Thomas who on top of all other intangibles was also so so much tougher than Paul. Thomas got hit harder than Paul ever did playing in the hand-checking era and rarely got injured or simply played through his injuries. Even compared to someone like Steve Nash... always healthy and ready to play, played better in big games, dragged 9 straight teams with changing rosters to a top 2 offense in the league. Unlike Paul, Nash came legitimately close to winning several titles losing to champion Spurs/Lakers multiple times in 2005, 2007 and 2010. Paul only came legitimately close to even winning a title in 2018 as a 2nd banana to James Harden and even then you can literally blame him for it. His injury might have cost his teammates a championship.

But whatever I was just making a point. The comparison with Nash is debatable because unfortunately both are ringless... but Isiah who put up the same stats as Paul (more or less...) and actually dragged his teams to multiple titles in a tougher era against teams with Bird, Magic and Jordan. This is a disrespectful comparison to Isiah... I'm not usually so adamant about something opinion based but you can't say Paul is better than Isiah and still analyze basketball meaningfully. The point of the game is to win and win titles isn't it?


He actually did already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3S_8QSPDng

That’s the best player in the series.

41/7/10/3 no turnovers and crushed a DPOY and good athletic perimeter defenders.


That’s a 33 year old on his last hamstrings and really didn’t have the burst he did in LA, to say nothing of NOP.

Declines athletically to a pass first jumpshooting play style and still a top 5 player.

Isiah could and would never.

Against a freakish drop big like Gobert, with Favors as extra help defense? Isiah would’ve been ****ed. Especially if they wore Harden down. Especially at age 32. Didn’t even make to 33. But it’s just food for a CP3.

And idiots forget or don’t even acknowledge this happened because you’ve dumbasses have been trained to bastardize NBA history for fun narratives.

Calling Chris Paul a choker and Isiah Thomas’ inferior on anything involving basketball....Actual disgraces. All you fgts have to do is sit and watch, and you fail at that. Dummies.

That's one game. Harden won MVP that year and was clearly the best player on that team.

Anyways what was Paul's statline in the WCF against the Warriors aka the real finals. What about in Game 6 and 7 with his team up 3-2? Goose eggs across the board doesn't look very good does it? Injuries aren't an excuse. They are a malus.

[tpols]

I love when someone says something stupid but arguable to somebody without passion, and then follows it up with something absolutely dumb to just about anybody.

Isiah Thomas was a few inches away from being LIKE Jordan? As opposed to Chris Paul, a guy with at least as much mental strength and discipline as anybody ever, actual god level coordination and body control, actual elite skill in the history of the sport, whereas Isiah was not even close to any of that, was a actually either a gunner or a pure pass first and never struck a balance like a Paul, Nash or Magic, and was absolutely not even close to an all-time athlete at the PG position.

Prime Eric Bledsoe is at least as athletic as Isiah was. Isiah was flat out not a better athlete than KJ. He’s absolutely not more athletic than John Wall. To say nothing of Russell Westbrook. Greatest first step...holy shit you people are delusional. Willing to claim anything to give some credibility to an overrated reputation.


https://streamable.com/u1kezk

That’s him at 35 after blowing a meniscus and two severe hamstring tears. absolutely no wasted motion, and insane spatial awareness to hit a shot after a spin in game over a 6’8 lanky tweener and then over athletic af Beal.

A 35 year old Chris Paul is EASILY STILL more coordinated and in control than Isiah ever was.

Age 22 to 33 when he had his natural first step, it isn’t even close on the ability to create shots and gain separation.

Peak Isiah is no better than peak John Wall at breaking down a defense and on offense in general. Not even close to CP3 on actually leveraging skills and lifting lineups, and filling in aggression as a scorer when needed.

There’s no play you could run where Isiah is getting a better result than Chris Paul. There’s no player Isiah fits better with. There’s no style he can play better.

Isiah played through gruesome injuries and had better intangibles though, while Chris Paul will sit out elimination games with slight pulls. Ended up in Thomas winning more, you can't say Paul hasn't played with great help. He simply can't last a whole playoff run.

[WhiteKyrie]

CP3 just choked his ass off a couple months ago against Houston.

Superficially CP3 and Isaiah Thomas have the exact same career stat line. Except Isaiah a little bit better scoring volume on roughly the same efficiency.

But he was just way more successful. And Isaiah was playing in a time and an offense where he didn’t have the ball in his hands as much as modern point guards, to be total decision maker, playmaker and scorer at all times like CP3, Westbrick, Harden and LeBron to dictate and pile up stats across the board so easily.

And even then his stats aren’t better. CP3 is very good defensively but he isn’t better by any significant margin over Zeke in that regard.

And honestly Isaiah could’ve very easily been a 25 point per game scored like Iverson and Kyrie, while still racking up dimes. But he distributed the wealth and focused on winning. Which he did.

He displayed a takeoff for the game ability, mental and physical toughness that Chris Paul can’t even come close to. Also Zeke was obviously a vastly superior floor general and leader. And that’s saying something, because Chris Paul is still quite good.

The only person (funny considering he never saw him play in context) that is so adamantly and moronically obsessed with CP3 > Zeke is RRR3 and his alt 999 or whatever. Transparent af.

[999Guy]

You’re just dumb and lazy. You don’t even try to be logical. You made no points.

You’re wrong about my point of even bringing up Chris Paul’s injury, that was in the context of any one claiming Isiah Thomas has more body control, stupid.

You claimed he never got to WCF as best player, which by the way is a ****ing retarded, arbitrary benchmark. Logically Chris Paul has been in teams that defeated contenders. The idea that his talent capped at the second round literally doesn’t hold up to reality or common sense. You’re so dumb to actually believe something like that. Such a narrow, typical unimaginative viewpoint. To actually be so simple and result oriented that you remove context just to make it easier on your dumb brain. But this this is really way beyond you. You’re an insect to this entire ecosystem of dumbasses like yourself. You really have no reason to every think beyond what everyone else does because it’s comfortable.

But just know, your arrogance isn’t based on logic, dummy, it’s on the false strength of everyone else’s also bad and lazy opinions.

I really wouldn’t even respond to you if not for your arrogance. The shit you’ve said it here is beyond worthless and repeated for years now.

And it’s not one game, stupid, he was THE BEST PLAYER in those 2018 WCSF, which would be the ultimate point of implying he never made it to the WCF as best player. Why does Harden get credit for a level he didn’t play at?

And then you move goalposts to the WCF, ignoring the context of the series. Chris Paul was the best player in those 6 games. I can’t believe you’d be stupid enough to mention game 6 as some bad performance. The game plan was to slow the game down and wear GS down, not some shootout, and it worked because of CP3, Harden, and Tucker mostly.

And you have so many dumb built ideas about basketball, the point of the game is to win titles? Is IT? Retard? Says who? Why?

Norris Cole should’ve just retired his rookie year, eh? You fgts are so brainwashed you don’t even care about the actual basketball itself. The damn sport is a business. In your shitty world, they could take the finals away, not even the playoffs, just the finals, and the sport is pointless. Do you even like playing basketball? Have you played it?

All of it defined by championships? If the NBA dissolved, how would your dumbass tell who is a better player in a gym?

You’re so behind in the race of logic and common sense you think you’re ahead. Sickening.

[NBAGOAT]

isiah is just too streaky a jumpshooter compared to nash or paul and not the defender kidd is. his metrics arent that great across the board but a stretch in the mid 80s where he didnt win. he's got rings unlike other guards but his help was all time level. yes i know nash, paul, payton had great help too but the bad boys are a different level. a lot of people in this thread will often argue for the bad boys as an all time team yet now act like isiah carried them

btw i'll go

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Curry
4. Paul
5. Nash

[RRR3]

isiah is just too streaky a jumpshooter compared to nash or paul and not the defender kidd is. his metrics arent that great across the board but a stretch in the mid 80s where he didnt win. he's got rings unlike other guards but his help was all time level. yes i know nash, paul, payton had great help too but the bad boys are a different level. a lot of people in this thread will often argue for the bad boys as an all time team yet now act like isiah carried them

btw i'll go

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Curry
4. Paul
5. Nash
Same top 5 as me :cheers:

[999Guy]

If you killed the top 50 NBA players, right now, for about 20 years the teams and players that win titles are gonna suck dick.

Otto Porter would have 7 rings.

A team HAS to win a title, the accomplishment is inherently an illusion. The moving parts go far beyond a players control times 50.

The idea of what a champion is, is just defined like the word “good”, or “okay”.

What if you made every series best of 3, or best of 9. What if it was like the super bowl and there’s single game elimination? Basketball’s rules define the game, but something like series, road games? Arbitrary nonsense that doesn’t have to be.

You nigg.as are like women who would suck old rockstar dick right now just for the status. Like those girls that ****ed Jimmy McGill and his friend cause they claimed to be Kevin Costner and his manager. :oldlol:

If I make one little tweak to your view of the NBA, you’re just confused dumbases. Which is another way of saying no part of the logic ITT and in the past 30 years of talking all-time shit holds up to scrutiny.

[RRR3]

999guy :bowdown:


Schooling these “RRRRANNNGGGGGZ DOE” idiots.

[NBAGOAT]

CP3 just choked his ass off a couple months ago against Houston.

Superficially CP3 and Isaiah Thomas have the exact same career stat line. Except Isaiah a little bit better scoring volume on roughly the same efficiency.

But he was just way more successful. And Isaiah was playing in a time and an offense where he didn’t have the ball in his hands as much as modern point guards, to be total decision maker, playmaker and scorer at all times like CP3, Westbrick, Harden and LeBron to dictate and pile up stats across the board so easily.

And even then his stats aren’t better. CP3 is very good defensively but he isn’t better by any significant margin over Zeke in that regard.

And honestly Isaiah could’ve very easily been a 25 point per game scored like Iverson and Kyrie, while still racking up dimes. But he distributed the wealth and focused on winning. Which he did.

He displayed a takeoff for the game ability, mental and physical toughness that Chris Paul can’t even come close to. Also Zeke was obviously a vastly superior floor general and leader. And that’s saying something, because Chris Paul is still quite good.

The only person (funny considering he never saw him play in context) that is so adamantly and moronically obsessed with CP3 > Zeke is RRR3 and his alt 999 or whatever. Transparent af.

I mean your points are decent but what the hell is this lol. isiah career ts is 51.6%. season high is 55.4% but next 2 highest are a little below 53%. Cp3's career ts% is 58.6% and has 3 years over 60. Their efficiency is not even close even with era adjustments.

There is a noticeable difference on defense. people dont see chris paul as a beverley or smart level defender in his prime but there were years with the clippers he was all-nba level for sure. isiah wasnt as ball dominant as modern guards but it gets overlooked that he benefited in his prime from a fast pace. Not only are the 80s a high possession era, detroit was also a team that ran a lot in the mid 80s.

takeover ability is great but let's not act like he's jordan with his consistency. why his efficiency is low. even in good playoff runs he has some real stinkers. nash/cp3/kidd are not exactly selfish score first guys so that argument doesnt work against them. the pistons mainly won off their defense and he did not lead them there. intangibles sure but that can only help a guy so much and i question someone who thinks jason kidd or gary payton doesnt have comparable intangibles

[RRR3]

I mean your points are decent but what the hell is this lol. isiah career ts is 51.6%. season high is 55.4% but next 2 highest are a little below 53%. Cp3's career ts% is 58.6% and has 3 years over 60. Their efficiency is not even close.

There is a noticeable difference on defense. people dont see chris paul as a beverley or smart level defender in his prime but there were years with the clippers he was all-nba level for sure. isiah wasnt as ball dominant as modern guards but it gets overlooked that he benefited in his prime from a fast pace. Not only are the 80s a high possession era, detroit was also a team that ran a lot.

takeover ability is great but let's not act like he's jordan with his consistency. why his efficiency is low. even in good playoff runs he has some real stinkers. nash/cp3/kidd are not exactly selfish score first guys and the pistons mainly won because of their defense and he did not lead them there. intangibles sure but that can only help a guy so much and i question someone who thinks jason kidd doesnt have comparable intangibles
You’re talking to SamuraiSwish/Swoosh/Money 23/Money Mitch/Poutin Pippin/Scottie Quittin/MadDog AKA “Coach”. He’s not to be taken seriously, dude defended MJ’s dick size :roll: He OD’s on nostalgia.

[NBAGOAT]

You’re talking to SamuraiSwish/Swoosh/Money 23/Money Mitch/Poutin Pippin/Scottie Quittin/MadDog AKA “Coach”. He’s not to be taken seriously, dude defended MJ’s dick size :roll: He OD’s on nostalgia.

ah i should've known. yes he's the exact type to prop up the bad boys as a super team and yet now isiah completely carried them them with his clutchness and intangibles lol.

[WhiteKyrie]

999guy :bowdown:


Schooling these “RRRRANNNGGGGGZ DOE” idiots.
This is obviously your account :oldlol:

[RRR3]

This is obviously your account :oldlol:
Yeah, quit projecting, Coach. Unlike you I only use this one account (well I still have my Sigmund Freud account but I don’t use it). Can’t wait to see you make another batch of accounts after LeBron wins numero cinco. Love how scared you’re getting of him getting 6 rings. You know damn well it’s curtains for MJ if he does.








CURTAINS.

[tpols]

The simple fact is you have to have played in the games to be considered over someone who actually did. Chris Paul on ability is better but it's only hypothetical because he realistically has never completed a long playoff run. Where as IT was an MVP candidate and champion... and used to duke it out with the likes of MJ, Bird, and Magic. If Chris Paul could complete a run, I'd say he was better but he never has.

[dankok8]

@999Guy

I'll respond to your post just to clarify my position. You're absolutely right that not everything is defined by championships but when two players of roughly equal skills and productivity (like Paul and Thomas) have such drastically different team success, one has got to the give the edge to the guy that won a lot.

With Paul the issue isn't even that he never made the WCF as the best player on his team... By the way that point isn't debatable no matter what kind of mental gymnastics you're going through to entertain that Paul was better than Harden on the 2018 Rockets. Maybe for a game here and there but not consistently. Harden was better. Paul was the best player on his team from the time he was drafted in 2005 until 2017 when he joined Houston. In those 12 seasons he missed the playoffs 3 times and made the playoffs 9 times. In those 9 postseasons he lost in the 1st and 2nd round every time... and each time he lost to a team that isn't a contender. In fact 8 out of those 9 times he lost to a team that lost in the very next round. I'm sorry but that's simply an atrocious record. The problem isn't just not reaching the WCF but losing to teams that themselves amounted to nothing.

[MadDog]

Love how scared you’re getting of him getting 6 rings. You know damn well it’s curtains for MJ if he does.

CURTAINS.

Only quoting this post because you called me this guy. Not him, but if you weren't a shut-in bitch you wouldn't have 34,000 posts either. Hypotheticals are fun but reality is better. :confusedshrug: LeBron is still playing catchup, and winning another 2 champinships is far from a guarantee. Reality.

[MadDog]

Isiah in the playoffs averaged 22/9/5 on 45% shooting and had an equal "VORP" to Chris Paul. The only REAL tangible measure separating the two is Zeke's cut-short career. Period. Still Isiah actually led multiple teams over Jordan's Bulls, Larry's Celtics and Magic's Lakers. And has the rings to show for it. Historically, anyone arguing that Isiah doesn't have an argument over Paul is a moron.

[Phoenix]

The simple fact is you have to have played in the games to be considered over someone who actually did. Chris Paul on ability is better but it's only hypothetical because he realistically has never completed a long playoff run. Where as IT was an MVP candidate and champion... and used to duke it out with the likes of MJ, Bird, and Magic. If Chris Paul could complete a run, I'd say he was better but he never has.

How are you defining this? 5th in MVP voting was his best finish(84) and he wasn't in the top 10 in either of the years he won a title.

[WhiteKyrie]

Isiah in the playoffs averaged 22/9/5 on 45% shooting and had an equal "VORP" to Chris Paul. The only REAL tangible measure separating the two is Zeke's cut-short career. Period. Still Isiah actually led multiple teams over Jordan's Bulls, Larry's Celtics and Magic's Lakers. And has the rings to show for it. Historically, anyone arguing that Isiah doesn't have an argument over Paul is a moron.

Well, that’s a bingo. We already knew RRR3 aka 999guy was a young dumb resident LeBron Tard. The stance on Chris Paul and Isiah Thomas just confirms it.

[72-10]

The simple fact is you have to have played in the games to be considered over someone who actually did.

This is one of thet most retarded things I've read on this site. Is this to be taken literally? Because when it comes to measuring skill you hardly need any sample size at all.

[72-10]

You’re talking to SamuraiSwish/Swoosh/Money 23/Money Mitch/Poutin Pippin/Scottie Quittin/MadDog AKA “Coach”. He’s not to be taken seriously, dude defended MJ’s dick size :roll: He OD’s on nostalgia.

RRR3 with the rap sheet

psych

[MadDog]

Well, that’s a bingo. We already knew RRR3 aka 999guy was a young dumb resident LeBron Tard. The stance on Chris Paul and Isiah Thomas just confirms it.

LeBron fans huh? Why isn't that the least bit surprising :confusedshrug: Their "stance" isnt even grounded in reality. Isiah at his best (playoffs) had similar impact, arguably better scoring skills and beat better teams. He wasn't playing second-fiddle to a clown like James Harden either.


RRR3 with the rap sheet

psych

Literally none of those posters.

[72-10]

You need to factor in that Isiah also had to guard MJ some of the time, because MJ was the best at taking the ball to the freaking hole.