LaVar Ball: LeBron James Cannot be the GOAT with ‘Losses’ on His Record

[Kiddlovesnets]

LaVar Ball ended by suggesting that Michael Jordan was the greatest of all time because he never lost in the finals. He also added that his sons would surpass Jordan’s greatness and said, “I’m talking about a dude who went to the finals, who was the main guy six times in a row… If you have losses on your record, you can’t be the greatest of all time. That dude ain’t got no losses in the finals. So it’s always going to be Michael Jordan until my boys succeed that.”


Despite the fact that I disagree that his boys can achieve it, I fully agree with him on this one point. MJ never lost in the Finals and its a necessary condition to have a perfect record in the Finals in order to surpass MJ. Thoughts?

Source:
https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-lavar-ball-says-lebron-james-cannot-be-the-goat-with-losses-on-his-record/

[leBron Bieber]

Despite the fact that I disagree that his boys can achieve it, I fully agree with him on this one point. MJ never lost in the Finals and its a necessary condition to have a perfect record in the Finals in order to surpass MJ. Thoughts?

Source:
https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-lavar-ball-says-lebron-james-cannot-be-the-goat-with-losses-on-his-record/

Stop telling yourself it’s ok to lose in the first round and not in the finals !! It’s literally insane ! Who says it’s better to finish in 20th place than 2nd !

[Kiddlovesnets]

Stop telling yourself it’s ok to lose in the first round and not in the finals !! It’s literally insane ! Who says it’s better to finish in 20th place than 2nd !

So? MJ lost in the 1st round when he was under rookie contract, far from his prime. Lebron didnt even make the playoffs in his first two years and no one holds it against him right?
:pimp:

[SouBeachTalents]

Stop telling yourself it’s ok to lose in the first round and not in the finals !! It’s literally insane ! Who says it’s better to finish in 20th place than 2nd !
I think OP's got a point, Kawhi & Giannis had much less embarrassing postseasons than Jimmy Butler

[GrayGoat]

Imagine thinking losing in the first round is better

[dankok8]

I don't think you need to have a perfect record in the Finals to be GOAT... that seems very arbitrary to me. You shouldn't give too much credit for making the Finals in a weak conference but even less so should you discredit a Finals appearance which you are doing if you count losses that harshly.

To me what matters is how you play in the Finals (getting outplayed/underperforming in your prime is a serious stain...) and the bottom line which is how many titles you win.

[scuzzy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hc6MfbXuek

[Elosha]

Imagine thinking losing in the first round is better

without AD, LeBron couldn't even make the playoffs in 2019. And I have a hard time imagining any more cushy playoff run the Lakers had this year. Tons of injuries in the league, no KD, no Warriors competition, Clippers choked in playoffs... Give credit where credit is due and he certainly won this year. Nothing can take that away, and he legitimately earned finals MVP, with AD a close second. But LeBron had the easiest path possible. And as always, he could never win without another superstar ( or two). AD is at least top five in the league.

[GrayGoat]

without AD, LeBron couldn't even make the playoffs in 2019. And I have a hard time imagining any more cushy playoff run the Lakers had this year. Tons of injuries in the league, no KD, no Warriors competition, Clippers choked in playoffs... Give credit where credit is due and he certainly won this year. Nothing can take that away, and he legitimately earned finals MVP, with AD a close second. But LeBron had the easiest path possible. And as always, he could never win without another superstar ( or two). AD is at least top five in the league.

How about you re-evaluate that season and get back to me with honesty. You like lying? Bron was injured and sat for a couple weeks plus ball and Ingraham had injuries. Be honest for once in your life

[SouBeachTalents]

And as always, he could never win without another superstar ( or two). AD is at least top five in the league.
He won with Wade & Bosh averaging 28 ppg combined in 2013 and people still make this argument :lol

[Kiddlovesnets]

He won with Wade & Bosh averaging 28 ppg combined in 2013 and people still make this argument :lol

So whose fault was it that Wade and Bosh were unable to play like superstars they were supposed to be?
:(

[SouBeachTalents]

So whose fault was it that Wade and Bosh were unable to play like superstars they were supposed to be?
:(
But then when his teammate does play like a superstar like AD & even Kyrie then people say he got carried. Y'all haters can't have it both ways

[Elosha]

How about you re-evaluate that season and get back to me with honesty. You like lying? Bron was injured and sat for a couple weeks plus ball and Ingraham had injuries. Be honest for once in your life

Sorry , you struck out. He came back with plenty of time in the season, claimed he was going to go into his "playoff mode," and failed miserably. Couldn't even play good defense and pointed his fingers at all his teammates constantly. He has to have another superstar, he's proven that his whole career. He's obviously still an all-time great. But hold your man to the same standard you try to hold to Jordan or any other all-time great. Otherwise you're just a hypocrite.

[Kiddlovesnets]

But then when his teammate does play like a superstar like AD & even Kyrie then people say he got carried. Y'all haters can't have it both ways

Irving was completely out of Lebron’s system and played with his own isoball, which was why his stats didn’t get worse compared to Wade who tried to adapt to bron ball and didn’t work. AD is the only player who was compatible with Lebron system, mostly because he’s one of the most versatile player able to play with all systems/tactics anyway.

Among the 10 all star caliber teammates Lebron ever had(Hughs, O’Neal, Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, Isaiah, Ingram and AD), only one was able to fit into Lebron system, this should tell enough of how flawed bron ball is. It makes role players better at the cost of undermining the all star players.

Such a system works well against lesser competitions in regular season and conference playoffs, but fail miserably in the finals series against stronger opponents. Lebron system was what granted Lebron so many trips to the finals, but also the reason why he had a miserable record in the finals. It helps him get there, but won’t help him win a title.

[Gohan]

Why do lebron fans celebrate being a runner up. Michael Jordan running shit and lebron is just a runner up

[Gohan]

Irving was completely out of Lebron’s system and played with his own isoball, which was why his stats didn’t get worse compared to Wade who tried to adapt to bron ball and didn’t work. AD is the only player who was compatible with Lebron system, mostly because he’s one of the most versatile player able to play with all systems/tactics anyway.

Among the 10 all star caliber teammates Lebron ever had(Hughs, O’Neal, Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, Isaiah, Ingram and AD), only one was able to fit into Lebron system, this should tell enough of how flawed bron ball is. It makes role players better at the cost of undermining the all star players.

Such a system works well against lesser competitions in regular season and conference playoffs, but fail miserably in the finals series against stronger opponents. Lebron system was what granted Lebron so many trips to the finals, but also the reason why he had a miserable record in the finals. It helps him get there, but won’t help him win a title.

Good post, wish you didn’t hate iverson so much:rockon:

[TheGoatest]

"Losses"?

3 losses in the first round = automatic disqualification from GOAT discussion

[pandiani17]

Stop telling yourself it’s ok to lose in the first round and not in the finals !! It’s literally insane ! Who says it’s better to finish in 20th place than 2nd !

This. I can't believe people have this way of thinking. :facepalm As if making the finals ten times is not a big achievement.

[dbugz]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/3oEhmMsahF7fPXfRte/200_d.gif

[GrayGoat]

Imagine if the Nets made 8 straight finals... sorry can’t even imagine it :oldlol:

[Trollsmasher]

loser like Lavar backing MJ ain't exactly the argument i'd throw around:oldlol:

[Kiddlovesnets]

Imagine if the Nets made 8 straight finals... sorry can’t even imagine it :oldlol:

Tbh Id rather we only make 3 finals and winning all of them, than making 8 straight finals and going 3-5.
:(

[GrayGoat]

Tbh Id rather we only make 3 finals and winning all of them, than making 8 straight finals and going 3-5.
:(

Basically you are saying I’d rather have no shot at winning the other chips

[SATAN]

Thoughts?




I would love to cave your skull in.

[Hey Yo]

Tbh Id rather we only make 3 finals and winning all of them, than making 8 straight finals and going 3-5.
:(

I'd rather miss the playoffs than taking the chance of losing in the Finals.

That line of thinking is about as stupid as it gets when it comes to sports.

[light]

Sorry LaVar, but it's too late for that argument. It has already been established that it doesn't matter.

[MadDog]

You can have losses and still be a GOAT candidate imo. How you play, lost or won is what matters. Everything from being a underdog to favorites should be taken into account and analyzed. Ball is correct that LeBron can't be the GOAT, but it isn't because he lost one time. :oldlol: Of all the Top 10, LeBron has the most finals losses, and is second to Wilt in WORST finals percentage. That is among various chokes and other nefarious behavior like teamhopping.

[3ball]

But then when his teammate does play like a superstar like AD & even Kyrie then people say he got carried. Y'all haters can't have it both ways

No, just don't lose in the Finals, which really means "don't field non-juggernauts"

Finals record = team ceiling

And we all know that bron-ball skillset puts a ceiling on teams.. do you know why or should I start the copy paste

[GrayGoat]

You can have losses and still be a GOAT candidate imo. How you play, lost or won is what matters. Everything from being a underdog to favorites should be taken into account and analyzed. Ball is correct that LeBron can't be the GOAT, but it isn't because he lost one time. :oldlol: Of all the Top 10, LeBron has the most finals losses, and is second to Wilt in WORST finals percentage. That is among various chokes and other nefarious behavior like teamhopping.

Yet people have had wilt as top 2 with only 2 chips. LeBron can be goat and

[GrayGoat]

No, just don't lose in the Finals, which really means "don't field non-juggernauts"

Finals record = team ceiling

And we all know that bron-ball skillset puts a ceiling on teams.. do you know why or should I start the copy paste
The ceiling is winning a chip. Which he did.

[3ball]

The ceiling is winning a chip. Which he did.

There's a big difference between 1-time champs (11' Mavs, 19' Raps), and dynasties (90's Bulls, 00's Lakers, Warriors)

Lebron can't have the latter (dynasty) because bron-ball isn't a good brand.. so he needs extra talent (team-hopping) to offset inferior brand/ball movement/chemistry

[Axe]

Day n night with all these baldan and bran debates.

This is getting ugly af.

[2ball]

There's a big difference between 1-time champs (11' Mavs, 19' Raps), and dynasties (90's Bulls, 00's Lakers, Warriors)

Lebron can't have the latter (dynasty) because bron-ball isn't a good brand.. so he needs extra talent (team-hopping) to offset inferior brand/ball movement/chemistry

Warriors only won 2 chips in a row. By your standard LeBron cultivated a dynasty in Miami since he went back to back

[FireDavidKahn]

LaVar's son got kicked out off the Lakers.

[Axe]

LaVar's son got kicked out off the Lakers.
I hope kuzma comes next

[IMObjective]

Tbh Id rather we only make 3 finals and winning all of them, than making 8 straight finals and going 3-5.
:(

LIAR

Making the finals means the team is relevant and people are talking about your team, with the added bonus of stars willing to come during free agency. No way no fan doesn't want this for their team as much as possible.

[Axe]

LIAR

Making the finals means the team is relevant and people are talking about your team, with the added bonus of stars willing to come during free agency. No way no fan doesn't want this for their team as much as possible.
The warriors immediately became perennial title contenders under steve kerr, which surely attracted a lot of bandwagon fans. Too bad they're nowhere to be found now after the dynasty had fallen last year.

[SATAN]

Michael Jordan doesn't even believe in the goat argument. This is why LeBron fans clown you ****ing morons and even LeBron has played you all like a fiddle. It's pretty mind blowing tbh. Like...Even if the poster does believe LeBron is the better player..Do half of these threads and posts look like a serious effort to discredit the 80s-90s' best shooting guard? All these stupid ESPN-esque set criteria hot takes are absolute nonsense that YOUR OWN IDOL DOESN'T BELIEVE IN. What a bunch of clowns. :lol

It was hilarious seeing dancockhead8 feeling so threatened about his beloved childhood heros' alleged basketball status that he made a thread telling the LeBron guys not to talk about MJ possibly being #2. :roll:

You SERIOUS, dude??!!! :oldlol:

Really???

You can't make this shit up.

ESPN, Nike and co have completely riddled your minds with the goat disease. As all time great ish hypocrite dancockhead8 said, it's fine to have your favorite player. Though just realize you guys started all this total nonsense in the first place (decades ago) and non MJ stans are just kicking back laughing our asses off at your sheer ignorance and devotion. :oldlol:

Mind you, this isn't a diss to anyone who isn't a biased moron and generally appreciates the game in all it's aspects.

[Kiddlovesnets]

LIAR

Making the finals means the team is relevant and people are talking about your team, with the added bonus of stars willing to come during free agency. No way no fan doesn't want this for their team as much as possible.

Tbh if I were a Heat fan, Id rather my team not making the finals this year since it was obvious that they were no match for the Lakers. 2011 was a different story though, they were the favorite side but didnt win for unexpected reasons.

[SouBeachTalents]

Tbh if I were a Heat fan, Id rather my team not making the finals this year since it was obvious that they were no match for the Lakers. 2011 was a different story though, they were the favorite side but didnt win for unexpected reasons.
So then not only are you retarded, you're a gutless coward to boot. Let me guess, you wish the Nets missed the playoffs in '02 instead of making the Finals?

[Kiddlovesnets]

So then not only are you retarded, you're a gutless coward to boot. Let me guess, you wish the Nets missed the playoffs in '02 instead of making the Finals?

Not really, 'cause we made it to the Finals before the WCF result was decided(defeated the Celtics in 6 while WCF went to game 7). Had the Kings won the series, we would've beaten them in 6 at 2002 Finals. We just had no answer for the Lakers apparently, but how were we supposed to know which team from the Western Conference would make it to the finals ahead of time? Our only chance to win the title in 2002 was that the Kings beat the Lakers, but it didnt happen.

[SouBeachTalents]

Not really, 'cause we made it to the Finals before the WCF result was decided(defeated the Celtics in 6 while WCF went to game 7). Had the Kings won the series, we would've beaten them in 6 at 2002 Finals. We just had no answer for the Lakers apparently, but how were we supposed to know which team from the Western Conference would make it to the finals ahead of time? Our only chance to win the title in 2002 was that the Kings beat the Lakers, but it didnt happen.
:oldlol: FOH troll

[Axe]

Michael Jordan doesn't even believe in the goat argument. This is why LeBron fans clown you ****ing morons and even LeBron has played you all like a fiddle. It's pretty mind blowing tbh. Like...Even if the poster does believe LeBron is the better player..Do half of these threads and posts look like a serious effort to discredit the 80s-90s' best shooting guard? All these stupid ESPN-esque set criteria hot takes are absolute nonsense that YOUR OWN IDOL DOESN'T BELIEVE IN. What a bunch of clowns. :lol

It was hilarious seeing dancockhead8 feeling so threatened about his beloved childhood heros' alleged basketball status that he made a thread telling the LeBron guys not to talk about MJ possibly being #2. :roll:

You SERIOUS, dude??!!! :oldlol:

Really???

You can't make this shit up.

ESPN, Nike and co have completely riddled your minds with the goat disease. As all time great ish hypocrite dancockhead8 said, it's fine to have your favorite player. Though just realize you guys started all this total nonsense in the first place (decades ago) and non MJ stans are just kicking back laughing our asses off at your sheer ignorance and devotion. :oldlol:

Mind you, this isn't a diss to anyone who isn't a biased moron and generally appreciates the game in all it's aspects.
Ish witnessing another epic meltdown that's not dousable

[SATAN]

Shut the **** up, Axe.

[Axe]

https://media.giphy.com/media/UU1bHu6QWyFxZM63Jh/giphy.gif

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=826636&dateline=1595126113&type=thumb

[Baller789]

NBA GOAT should have at least 5 rings as the undisputed man. Win more than 70% of his finals series.
And none of those getting swept in the finals by record margins stuff.

That sh!t was embarassing.

If you were to lose, at least lose guns slingin'.

[SATAN]

Nice one, Max Kellerman.

[SATAN]

https://media.giphy.com/media/UU1bHu6QWyFxZM63Jh/giphy.gif

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=826636&dateline=1595126113&type=thumb

You stole this post idea from another poster as you've done from me before. And yes, I'm very funny. Thanks.

[Axe]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/a109e434d8bf1b27767bc9dae42ae5f2/tenor.gif

[Lebron23]

Sorry , you struck out. He came back with plenty of time in the season, claimed he was going to go into his "playoff mode," and failed miserably. Couldn't even play good defense and pointed his fingers at all his teammates constantly. He has to have another superstar, he's proven that his whole career. He's obviously still an all-time great. But hold your man to the same standard you try to hold to Jordan or any other all-time great. Otherwise you're just a hypocrite.

Get Jordan's dick out of your mouth. You fruitcake.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Rob Parker: Lebron is not GOAT, he is FFOAT.
:(

[dankok8]

Michael Jordan doesn't even believe in the goat argument. This is why LeBron fans clown you ****ing morons and even LeBron has played you all like a fiddle. It's pretty mind blowing tbh. Like...Even if the poster does believe LeBron is the better player..Do half of these threads and posts look like a serious effort to discredit the 80s-90s' best shooting guard? All these stupid ESPN-esque set criteria hot takes are absolute nonsense that YOUR OWN IDOL DOESN'T BELIEVE IN. What a bunch of clowns. :lol

It was hilarious seeing dancockhead8 feeling so threatened about his beloved childhood heros' alleged basketball status that he made a thread telling the LeBron guys not to talk about MJ possibly being #2. :roll:

You SERIOUS, dude??!!! :oldlol:

Really???

You can't make this shit up.

ESPN, Nike and co have completely riddled your minds with the goat disease. As all time great ish hypocrite dancockhead8 said, it's fine to have your favorite player. Though just realize you guys started all this total nonsense in the first place (decades ago) and non MJ stans are just kicking back laughing our asses off at your sheer ignorance and devotion. :oldlol:

Mind you, this isn't a diss to anyone who isn't a biased moron and generally appreciates the game in all it's aspects.

I'm not an MJ fan. I just believe that he's better than Lebron. Why does that bother you so much?

The point of the thread I made was simply to wait till the active player's career is over. And that goes for EVERY active player. :confusedshrug:

[Baller789]

Get Jordan's dick out of your mouth. You fruitcake.
Triggered.
Lololol!

Playoff mode activated!
Error!
Error!
BSOD!

LMAO!

[Baller789]

I'm not an MJ fan. I just believe that he's better than Lebron. Why does that bother you so much?

The point of the thread I made was simply to wait till the active player's career is over. And that goes for EVERY active player. :confusedshrug:

Well youd didn't d!ck ride Lebron.

So they now label you as a Jordan stan.

These virgins fiddle themseleves with thoughts of Lebron, didn't you know?

[FireDavidKahn]

Kidd is admitting he likes to be a loser in this thread.

[SATAN]

I'm not an MJ fan. I just believe that he's better than Lebron. Why does that bother you so much?

The point of the thread I made was simply to wait till the active player's career is over. And that goes for EVERY active player. :confusedshrug:

Fair enough, I agree. The fact remains though that MJ stans were labeling MJ better than Jesus Christ himself before MJ retired. They can't handle backlash against their own nonsense.

Worst of all, half of them are just casuals.

[kawhileonard2]

Despite the fact that I disagree that his boys can achieve it, I fully agree with him on this one point. MJ never lost in the Finals and its a necessary condition to have a perfect record in the Finals in order to surpass MJ. Thoughts?

Source:
https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-lavar-ball-says-lebron-james-cannot-be-the-goat-with-losses-on-his-record/

He is right

[BlackMamba8]

Bronsexuals are the most uneducated people in here....smh

[Kiddlovesnets]

As I said in another thread, the 100% winning record in the finals is a necessary condition for GOAT:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?485815-Reminder-A-100-Finals-winning-percentage-is-a-NECESSARY-condition-for-GOAT

[2much_knowledge]

Thats not it. Really. You just can't be the goat while having half of the real goat accolades while playing longer and with more help. It just doesn't add up

The real future goat should be able to accomplish everything MJ did in just 11 complete seasons in a similar number of seasons and do it without stacked team jumping

[3ball]

.

PLAYOFFS

88' McHale..... 25.9 ppg
88' Bird.......'.... 25.1 ppg

86' McHale..... 24.9 ppg
86' Bird........'... 25.1 ppg

20' AD............ 27.7 ppg
20' Lebron..... 27.6 ppg

11' Wade....... 24.5 ppg
11' Lebron..... 23.7 ppg

16 Kyrie......... 25.2 ppg
16' Lebron..... 26.2 ppg


Everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner (1b) for most of their rings except the goat, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less in every playoffs.

Teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive attention for his entire career, (thus giving maximum integrity to his stats and rings).. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

Accordingly, rings with 2nd options are greater than rings with 1b's and Jordan has 4 more rings with 2nd options than anyone else in history - that's his irrefutable goat argument.

And there's more clear-cut evidence - everyone that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to average 25 or win FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals - but Pippen peaked at 21 ppg and is 0/6 in FMVP, so only MJ could win with Pippen.

Ultimately, only MJ lacked the FMVP sidekicks, equal-scoring partners, and elite 1st option sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed - he was stuck with a true 2nd option like Pippen and inferior team defenses (bulls had the #7 defense during 1st three-peat, including inferior defenses in ECF/Finals)..

[iamgine]

Each person has their own subjective criteria for GOAT.

[HoopsNY]

Despite the fact that I disagree that his boys can achieve it, I fully agree with him on this one point. MJ never lost in the Finals and its a necessary condition to have a perfect record in the Finals in order to surpass MJ. Thoughts?

Source:
https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-lavar-ball-says-lebron-james-cannot-be-the-goat-with-losses-on-his-record/

Jordan's 6-0 record in the finals is one of the weakest arguments, if not THE weakest argument, that MJ fans typically bring to the table. The fact that it's even mentioned is an insult to the game, his teammates, and any point of logic. It almost mirrors LeBron stans and some of their ridiculous arguments.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Jordan's 6-0 record in the finals is one of the weakest arguments, if not THE weakest argument, that MJ fans typically bring to the table. The fact that it's even mentioned is an insult to the game, his teammates, and any point of logic. It almost mirrors LeBron stans and some of their ridiculous arguments.

Nope its one of the strongest arguments. Part of MJ's greatness is that hes perfect and invincible in the NBA Finals, any losses would've tainted his legacy and made him much less formidable. MJ did not just gone 6-0 in his prime, he was undefeated in the playoffs series. As soon as he won his first ring, no one could stop him unless he felt bored and decided to retire. This is a different level of dominance, compared to the alternative MJ who could actually be defeated in the finals.

[Real Men Wear Green]

1: Which team had a better season: The team that lost in the first round or the team that lost in the Finals?

2: Is an NBA Championship a team accomplishment or an individual award?

[Kiddlovesnets]

1: Which team had a better season: The team that lost in the first round or the team that lost in the Finals?


Depends on context, the talent level on the rosters are very different. Taking a lottery bound team to first round exit(first 3 years of MJ) is much better than taking a title favorite team to loss in the finals(2011, 2014 and 2015 Lebron).



2: Is an NBA Championship a team accomplishment or an individual award?

It is mostly a team accomplishment, but a team is made of individuals and we've seen the difference it made for Raptors by simply replacing Demar Derozan by Kawhi Leonard. Replace Lebron by MJ, the Heat would win in 2011 and 2014, and Cavs would win in 2015. MJ might not have a perfect Finals record, but going something like 6/10 or 7/10 is highly possible.

[BlackMamba8]

The "GOAT" status was made by ESPN, fake narrative for LeBUM....bull$hit

[RogueBorg]

Regarding championships, it doesn't matter if you missed the playoffs, lost in the 1st round, or lost in the Finals, the goal is winning the chip. Does anyone think Elgin Baylor was relieved to have played and lost in 7 NBA Finals even though he never won 1 ring? Does any Buffalo Bills fan take solace in losing 4 straight Super Bowls? Only idiotic Lebron fans make that pathetic argument.

Here's the bottom line;

Lebron has 4 rings in 18 seasons
Jordan has 6 rings in 15 seasons

No matter how you slice it .400>.222

Regarding the guy with the most rings Bill Russell, the reason he is NEVER in any GOAT conversation is because he was an average offensive player at best.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/ONnDAAIBgicsU/200w.gif?cid=82a1493brekyl865vadxwwol1rj6f1jscc7z5 8w2fpw5a6gf&rid=200w.gif

[2much_knowledge]

Regarding championships, it doesn't matter if you missed the playoffs, lost in the 1st round, or lost in the Finals, the goal is winning the chip. Does anyone think Elgin Baylor was relieved to have played and lost in 7 NBA Finals even though he never won 1 ring? Does any Buffalo Bills fan take solace in losing 4 straight Super Bowls? Only idiotic Lebron fans make that pathetic argument.

Here's the bottom line;

Lebron has 4 rings in 18 seasons
Jordan has 6 rings in 15 seasons

No matter how you slice it .400>.222

Regarding the guy with the most rings Bill Russell, the reason he is NEVER in any GOAT conversation is because he was an average offensive player at best.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/ONnDAAIBgicsU/200w.gif?cid=82a1493brekyl865vadxwwol1rj6f1jscc7z5 8w2fpw5a6gf&rid=200w.gif

Good points there

[Axe]

Regarding championships, it doesn't matter if you missed the playoffs, lost in the 1st round, or lost in the Finals, the goal is winning the chip. Does anyone think Elgin Baylor was relieved to have played and lost in 7 NBA Finals even though he never won 1 ring? Does any Buffalo Bills fan take solace in losing 4 straight Super Bowls? Only idiotic Lebron fans make that pathetic argument.

Here's the bottom line;

Lebron has 4 rings in 18 seasons
Jordan has 6 rings in 15 seasons

No matter how you slice it .400>.222

Regarding the guy with the most rings Bill Russell, the reason he is NEVER in any GOAT conversation is because he was an average offensive player at best.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/ONnDAAIBgicsU/200w.gif?cid=82a1493brekyl865vadxwwol1rj6f1jscc7z5 8w2fpw5a6gf&rid=200w.gif
So a player has to be a good offensive player for him to be considered as 'goat'? Lmao

[Gimmedarock]

Rings can’t be the only thing that’s looked at. Look at their stats. Most importantly, watch them play. Lebron demonstrates the greatest skill set of any player that’s played. He’s great at every area and he’s been great his entire career. He’s accomplished more than enough and dominated enough to be GOAT.

Plus, if someone like Harden never gets a ring, does that mean he should be considered one of the greatest shooting guards of all time? He’s top 5 easy.

[RogueBorg]

So a player has to be a good offensive player for him to be considered as 'goat'? Lmao

You have to be great offensively, defensively, and have multiple accolades. Jordan, Lebron, and Kareem have all of that, Russell doesn't. Bill Russell is almost never in any GOAT discussions despite having 11 rings and 5 MVP's. He was a great defender, rebounder, and shot blocker. Offensively, he was mediocre.

Russell never averaged 20 ppg in any season (compare that to Wilt)
He shot 44% for his career never even once coming close to shooting 50% in any one season.
He shot 56% from the line.

You can't be GOAT being this miserable offensively.

[RogueBorg]

Plus, if someone like Harden never gets a ring, does that mean he should be considered one of the greatest shooting guards of all time? He’s top 5 easy.

To me, Harden will never be ahead of Kobe because he doesn't play defense. Plus, if he never wins a ring, then there's absolutely no way he moves past him. If someone wants to make the argument that offensively Harden is better than Kobe, the fact that Kobe was still a great offensive player, great defensive player, and has 5 rings....Harden will never be ranked ahead of him.

[Bronbron23]

Rings can’t be the only thing that’s looked at. Look at their stats. Most importantly, watch them play. Lebron demonstrates the greatest skill set of any player that’s played. He’s great at every area and he’s been great his entire career. He’s accomplished more than enough and dominated enough to be GOAT.

Plus, if someone like Harden never gets a ring, does that mean he should be considered one of the greatest shooting guards of all time? He’s top 5 easy.

Here's the problem with the jack of all trades theory. One, it's widely excepted that it's better to be a master of one than a jack of all trades but a master of none. The other problem is lets say for argument sake being a jack of all trades is better, there's other players who were better jacks of all trades. Shit literally every great center were better or as good in as many areas as bron. Hakeem, kareem, shaq, wilt and russell were as good or better in more areas. They all were better defenders and rebounders. Kareem, shaq and wilt were as good of scorers also. So the only thing bron was better than them at was passing. They were as good or better in everything else.

[Gohan]

Lmk when lebron gets 10 scoring titles. Jordan had more accolades in less seasons

[Airupthere]

You have to be great offensively, defensively, and have multiple accolades. Jordan, Lebron, and Kareem have all of that, Russell doesn't. Bill Russell is almost never in any GOAT discussions despite having 11 rings and 5 MVP's. He was a great defender, rebounder, and shot blocker. Offensively, he was mediocre.

Russell never averaged 20 ppg in any season (compare that to Wilt)
He shot 44% for his career never even once coming close to shooting 50% in any one season.
He shot 56% from the line.

You can't be GOAT being this miserable offensively.

This. Lebron missed the boat midway through his career. He will never be goat no matter the longevity and stat accumulation.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Rings can’t be the only thing that’s looked at. Look at their stats. Most importantly, watch them play. Lebron demonstrates the greatest skill set of any player that’s played. He’s great at every area and he’s been great his entire career. He’s accomplished more than enough and dominated enough to be GOAT.

Plus, if someone like Harden never gets a ring, does that mean he should be considered one of the greatest shooting guards of all time? He’s top 5 easy.

Rings aint the only things to look at, hence why Bill Russell isnt GOAT, but you cant just look at the stats either. Lebron's stats may look dominant, but in most of the NBA Finals hes been nowhere close to dominant at all. Theres a reason why he lost more finals than he won, in fact he never had a winning record in the finals for any point of his career. Even after 2013 he was barely 2-2, and then it was always below 50% since 2014. Lebron got shut down in 2007 and humiliated in 2011, while Kawhi put up the highest FG% ever against him in 2014. In 2017 and 2018, Durant put up a show and destroyed Lebron for most of the games(and yet its funny most people only remember game 1 2018, Lebron still lost that game anyway so its mostly empty stats).

So nope Lebron has accomplished absolutely nothing to be GOAT, hes dominant when compared to your average top 10-25 players but hes not dominant at all when we compare him to MJ the reigning GOAT. I agree your point about Harden, but its a very different situation since Harden is being compared to top 5 SGs, not Michael Jordan.

[LeCola]

In theory Lebron still can be GOAT.

If he wins 5 more FMVP's in next 5 seasons I would accept he is GOAT.

[Kiddlovesnets]

In theory Lebron still can be GOAT.

If he wins 5 more FMVP's in next 5 seasons I would accept he is GOAT.

Nope hes already theoretically eliminated from GOAT discussion since 2007, see this thread for more details:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?485815-Reminder-A-100-Finals-winning-percentage-is-a-NECESSARY-condition-for-GOAT

In theory Lebron can be the second greatest behind MJ though. He needs 5 rings to surpass Magic and 6 to move ahead of Kareem.

[Gohan]

I don’t agree with the loss thing but I do consider the media and lebron fans are settling for less with lebron. It’s like they want to replace Jordan so bad they’ll use anyone that is remotely good

[Kiddlovesnets]

I don’t agree with the loss thing but I do consider the media and lebron fans are settling for less with lebron. It’s like they want to replace Jordan so bad they’ll use anyone that is remotely good

Nah I dont think the intention is to replace MJ, its a propaganda to make people believe that Lebron is second only to MJ. Think about it, if we regularly compare Lebron to MJ, he will be considered top 2 no matter the result of the debate. The reality is that Lebron has not surpassed Kareem and Id even put Magic ahead of him, but the ongoing GOAT discussion has made it look consensus that Lebron is already top 2 all time right behind MJ.

[tontoz]

Everybody loses. I don't buy the argument that a loss in the Finals is worse than a loss prior to the Finals. That makes no sense.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Everybody loses. I don't buy the argument that a loss in the Finals is worse than a loss prior to the Finals. That makes no sense.

Losses in the finals when the team was ring or bust, is definitely worse than taking a lottery bound team to first round. Its a team sport, so at the end of the day we compare both the absolute peak, as well as the relative performance compared to the expectation. This chart shows why Lebron is nowhere close to MJ, the latter always did more with less until he won a title(then its theoretically impossible to overachieve when the expectation is to win every year).

https://i.ibb.co/s15GhMX/MJ-vs-Lebron-comparison.png

[tontoz]

Losses in the finals when the team was ring or bust, is definitely worse than taking a lottery bound team to first round. Its a team sport, so at the end of the day we compare both the absolute peak, as well as the relative performance compared to the expectation. This chart shows why Lebron is nowhere close to MJ, the latter always did more with less until he won a title(then its theoretically impossible to overachieve when the expectation is to win every year).

https://i.ibb.co/s15GhMX/MJ-vs-Lebron-comparison.png

Jordan is my favorite player ever but i don't remember a playoff series where he was the underdog and won. He won when he was expected to win.

When he didn't have the better team he lost every time.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Nope hes already theoretically eliminated from GOAT discussion since 2007, see this thread for more details:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?485815-Reminder-A-100-Finals-winning-percentage-is-a-NECESSARY-condition-for-GOAT

In theory Lebron can be the second greatest behind MJ though. He needs 5 rings to surpass Magic and 6 to move ahead of Kareem.

You disqualify yourself from being taken seriously with that kind of take. It's patently absurd.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Jordan is my favorite player ever but i don't remember a playoff series where he was the underdog and won. He won when he was expected to win.

When he didn't have the better team he lost every time.

In 1989 MJ took the Bulls to beat Cavs and then Knicks, both were better teams at the time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_NBA_playoffs

[Airupthere]

You disqualify yourself from being taken seriously with that kind of take. It's patently absurd.

Lebron in his peak, went 2/4 when he had a superteam. While outdoing 6/6 may not be the exact standard, Lebron's failures at the highest level disqualifies him from being goat.

Losing when circumstances are not in your favor (ie, rookie or earlier years, injuries, or injured teammates or having a weak team) is understandable. But forming a superteam and being at the highest level and going 2/4 while losing to grandpa teams is not necessarily a strong case for Lebron.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Lebron in his peak, went 2/4 when he had a superteam. While outdoing 6/6 may not be the exact standard, Lebron's failures at the highest level disqualifies him from being goat.

Losing when circumstances are not in your favor (ie, rookie or earlier years, injuries, or injured teammates or having a weak team) is understandable. But forming a superteam and being at the highest level and going 2/4 while losing to grandpa teams is not necessarily a strong case for Lebron.

What you just said is different from saying he's automatically disqualified because of 2007.

[tontoz]

In 1989 MJ took the Bulls to beat Cavs and then Knicks, both were better teams at the time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_NBA_playoffs

That's all you got, the first and 2nd round one year? That just highlights my point.

[Kiddlovesnets]

That's all you got, the first and 2nd round one year? That just highlights my point.

And Lebron didnt beat any teams better than his except in 2007 against the Pistons either, while Butler beat the Bucks and Celtics last year. I dont understand the point you are trying to make.

[tontoz]

And Lebron didnt beat any teams better than his except in 2007 against the Pistons either, while Butler beat the Bucks and Celtics last year. I dont understand the point you are trying to make.


The point is that Jordan was the heavy favorite every time he made the finals. Lebron wasnt so acting like the Finals record in the be all and end all is nonsense.

[Kiddlovesnets]

The point is that Jordan was the heavy favorite every time he made the finals. Lebron wasnt so acting like the Finals record in the be all and end all is nonsense.

Lebron was heavy favorite to make it to the finals too, except for 2007. But MJ was not heavy favorite in 1991 actually, before the season started most people believed the Pistons would 3-peat:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991_preseason_odds.html

But anyway, MJ as heavy favorites never lost in the finals, while Lebron lost in 2011 and 2014.

[tontoz]

Jordan was a heavy favorite in the Finals every time. There was never a time when the Western team in the Finals was a favorite over the Bulls. Is that clear enough for you?

[Kiddlovesnets]

Jordan was a heavy favorite in the Finals every time. There was never a time when the Western team in the Finals was a favorite over the Bulls. Is that clear enough for you?

So what? Lebron only won when he played a worse team than his as well. The difference is that, Lebron actually couldnt maintain a perfect record in the finals against teams he was supposed to beat(ie. 2011 and 2014), while when he was the underdog he always lost.

[hateraid]

Well youd didn't d!ck ride Lebron.

So they now label you as a Jordan stan.

These virgins fiddle themseleves with thoughts of Lebron, didn't you know?

Yet you accuse me of being a LeBron stan. Ironic

[hateraid]

Montana, Eli >>>> Payton, Brady

#finals record matters

[2much_knowledge]

I don’t agree with the loss thing but I do consider the media and lebron fans are settling for less with lebron. It’s like they want to replace Jordan so bad they’ll use anyone that is remotely good

Thats why i can see through that b.s. knowing how a bron stan thinks. If lebron was 2 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 1 dpoy, 3 steals leader, 9 scoring tittles and 2 three peats ahead of Jordan.... with a perfect finals record too

No bron fan on earth would say Jordan was better than him only because he averages a couple of assists and rebounds over him.. hell no

[Kiddlovesnets]

Montana, Eli >>>> Payton, Brady

#finals record matters

These are different sports, its a poor argument if you compare single elimination tournament to best of 7 series. If you lose in one game, it can be a coincidence(luck or bad form). If you lose 4 games in a series, it means you are just not good enough to beat your opponents.

[tontoz]

So what? Lebron only won when he played a worse team than his as well. The difference is that, Lebron actually couldnt maintain a perfect record in the finals against teams he was supposed to beat(ie. 2011 and 2014), while when he was the underdog he always lost.


San Antonio won 62 games in the West in 2014, 6 more than the Heat did in the weak East. Spurs had home court in the Finals.

Jordan routinely lost when he was the underdog as well. He just did it prior to the Finals. Again i don't think losing prior to the Finals is better than losing in the Finals. That is just nonsense.

[Kiddlovesnets]

San Antonio won 62 games in the West in 2014, 6 more than the Heat did in the weak East. Spurs had home court in the Finals.

Jordan routinely lost when he was the underdog as well. He just did it prior to the Finals. Again i don't think losing prior to the Finals is better than losing in the Finals. That is just nonsense.

So what? The Suns also won 62 games in the West 2014, and had HCA against Bulls in the finals. The Bulls were pre-season favorites though, but the Heat was also heavy favorite to win by pre-season odds, they had the most talented rosters that year like Bulls in 1993:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html

[tontoz]

So what? The Suns also won 62 games in the West 2014, and had HCA against Bulls in the finals. The Bulls were pre-season favorites though, but the Heat was also heavy favorite to win by pre-season odds, they had the most talented rosters that year like Bulls in 1993:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html

Preseason odds are pretty useless. The Spurs were a dynasty that not only had 4 chips in the Duncan era but also made the Finals the previous year, taking the Heat to 7 games.

Jordan never faced that kind of competition in the Finals.

How many rings does Barkley have?

[Kiddlovesnets]

Preseason odds are pretty useless. The Spurs were a dynasty that not only had 4 chips in the Duncan era but also made the Finals the previous year, taking the Heat to 7 games.

Jordan never faced that kind of competition in the Finals.

How many rings does Barkley have?

The preseason odds are highly useful since it describes the perceived talent level on each team’s rosters. At this point no one knows how team chemistry and injuries will affect the players, so we know which teams are better on paper. Lebron being preseason favorites but failing to win the titles, proved that he ain’t able to take a ring or bust team to win from time to time. This simply shows that he’s nowhere near MJ’s level, MJ never let a ring slip away when he’s expected to win it all.

And you make a poor argument again. Barkley has 0 ring because he had to play against MJ. Replace MJ by Lebron and Barkley would win in 1993, and then a lot of things would change since the Suns would get stronger the following year and wouldn’t choke against Rockets having won a title in the last year. MJ’s opponents were ringless ‘cause they had to play against MJ, while lebron’s opponents have a lot of rings since they faced Lebron instead.

Btw I made a thread about MJ vs Lebron based on preseason odds and finishes, you may want to take a look and broaden your knowledge:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?491445-Season-by-Season-analysis-MJ-vs-Lebron-on-pre-season-odds-amp-finishes

[hateraid]

These are different sports, its a poor argument if you compare single elimination tournament to best of 7 series. If you lose in one game, it can be a coincidence(luck or bad form). If you lose 4 games in a series, it means you are just not good enough to beat your opponents.

How so? You win when it counts. Bottom line. You can't be selective to support your argument. And if single game eliminations are based on a luck element then no single game championship has merit, especially winning to get to that single game championship

[Kiddlovesnets]

How so? You win when it counts. Bottom line. You can't be selective to support your argument. And if single game eliminations are based on a luck element then no single game championship has merit, especially winning to get to that single game championship

Luck plays a big factor in Single elimination games, but if you manage to win multiple it has merit. Brady won 7 Super Bowls, so that’s enough to prove a lot of points.

[tontoz]

The preseason odds are highly useful since it describes the perceived talent level on each team’s rosters. At this point no one knows how team chemistry and injuries will affect the players, so we know which teams are better on paper. Lebron being preseason favorites but failing to win the titles, proved that he ain’t able to take a ring or bust team to win from time to time. This simply shows that he’s nowhere near MJ’s level, MJ never let a ring slip away when he’s expected to win it all.

And you make a poor argument again. Barkley has 0 ring because he had to play against MJ. Replace MJ by Lebron and Barkley would win in 1993, and then a lot of things would change since the Suns would get stronger the following year and wouldn’t choke against Rockets having won a title in the last year. MJ’s opponents were ringless ‘cause they had to play against MJ, while lebron’s opponents have a lot of rings since they faced Lebron instead.

Btw I made a thread about MJ vs Lebron based on preseason odds and finishes, you may want to take a look and broaden your knowledge:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?491445-Season-by-Season-analysis-MJ-vs-Lebron-on-pre-season-odds-amp-finishes

The Suns only made 1 finals. Jordan didn't prevent them from making another Finals. They were just a good team that had a great year. They never got close to the Finals again while Barkley was there.

The Spurs won 5 chips and took the Heat to 7 in the Finals the previous year.

These two teams aren't remotely comparable.

What were the preseason odds about the Heat last year? :oldlol:

[FKAri]

Weird. I thought it was because of the difference in basketball playing ability.

[RogueBorg]

Preseason odds are pretty useless. The Spurs were a dynasty that not only had 4 chips in the Duncan era but also made the Finals the previous year, taking the Heat to 7 games.

Jordan never faced that kind of competition in the Finals.

How many rings does Barkley have?

The 2014 Spurs were not a dynasty and they weren't even close to a dynasty. The Spurs never won back-to-back championships. Three in five from 2003 to 2007....yeah I guess so, but I always thought there had to be a back-to-back rings in there and the '14 Spurs don't meet any dynasty definition.

[Kiddlovesnets]

The Suns only made 1 finals. Jordan didn't prevent them from making another Finals. They were just a good team that had a great year. They never got close to the Finals again while Barkley was there.

The Spurs won 5 chips and took the Heat to 7 in the Finals the previous year.

These two teams aren't remotely comparable.

What were the preseason odds about the Heat last year? :oldlol:

The Suns only made 1 finals, and the Spurs made only 2 in the 10s decade anyway. This is a very minor difference and small sample size anyway. The Spurs were a dynasty team from 03 to 07 but that had little to do with Lebron anyway. Yeah they won the chips in 2014 and took Heat to game 7 the previous year, thats because they were playing against Lebron. Replace Lebron by MJ and the Spurs would lose in 5 in 2013 and 6 in 2014. The two teams were absolutely comparable, the difference is that one had to play against MJ the GOAT, the other played against Lebron the FFOAT.

[tontoz]

The Suns only made 1 finals, and the Spurs made only 2 in the 10s decade anyway. This is a very minor difference and small sample size anyway. The Spurs were a dynasty team from 03 to 07 but that had little to do with Lebron anyway. Yeah they won the chips in 2014 and took Heat to game 7 the previous year, thats because they were playing against Lebron. Replace Lebron by MJ and the Spurs would lose in 5 in 2013 and 6 in 2014. The two teams were absolutely comparable, the difference is that one had to play against MJ the GOAT, the other played against Lebron the FFOAT.

If the two teams were comparable then why didn't the Suns sniff the Finals again? They didn't get close before or after. Jordan didn't prevent them from making the Finals again. They couldnt even get past the 2nd round.

Did Jordan prevent them from getting past the 2nd round in the West? :lol

[Kiddlovesnets]

If the two teams were comparable then why didn't the Suns sniff the Finals again? They didn't get close before or after. Jordan didn't prevent them from making the Finals again. They couldnt even get past the 2nd round.

Did Jordan prevent them from getting past the 2nd round in the West? :lol

Because MJ beat them comprehensively, while the Spurs almost got the title in 2013. If Lebron was able to destroy Spurs in 5-6 games in 2013, it would've been a very different story. Replace MJ by Lebron, the Suns would win in 1993, and then they would make the finals in 1994 again since the mentality is very different once you became a winner. Lebron allowed his opponents to win against him, hes not a dominant player in the NBA Finals.

[tontoz]

Because MJ beat them comprehensively, while the Spurs almost got the title in 2013. If Lebron was able to destroy Spurs in 5-6 games in 2013, it would've been a very different story. Replace MJ by Lebron, the Suns would win in 1993, and then they would make the finals in 1994 again since the mentality is very different once you became a winner. Lebron allowed his opponents to win against him, hes not a dominant player in the NBA Finals.

:roll:

The Bulls won by 1 point in game 6. None of their 4 victories were by double digits. The Suns were a basket away from playing game 7 on their home floor.

Jordan must have some Harry Potter magic powers if he can prevent a team from getting past the 2nd round in the West. :facepalm

[kentatm]

its a necessary condition to have a perfect record in the Finals in order to surpass MJ. Thoughts?

Source:
https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-lavar-ball-says-lebron-james-cannot-be-the-goat-with-losses-on-his-record/


I'm nowhere near a Bronstan and I think that's a stupid ass condition.

[Kiddlovesnets]

:roll:

The Bulls won by 1 point in game 6. None of their 4 victories were by double digits. The Suns were a basket away from playing game 7 on their home floor.

Jordan must have some Harry Potter magic powers if he can prevent a team from getting past the 2nd round in the West. :facepalm

Replace Lebron by MJ, and the Heat would've won in 2011 and 2014, the Cavs would in in 2015. MJ would go 7/9(couldnt make the finals in 2007), instead of 4/10.

[tontoz]

Replace Lebron by MJ, and the Heat would've won in 2011 and 2014, the Cavs would in in 2015. MJ would go 7/9(couldnt make the finals in 2007), instead of 4/10.


Yeah and i am sure the Suns would have made several Finals appearances in a row without the shadow of MJ preventing them from getting past the 2nd round.

:roll:

[Kiddlovesnets]

Yeah and i am sure the Suns would have made several Finals appearances in a row without the shadow of MJ preventing them from getting past the 2nd round.

:roll:

Wouldnt have 'several', but 1994 and 1995 were definitely possible if they had won in 1993. You underestimated the difference it makes to win the title and what championship mentality brings. The Warriors would not have been that good in 2016 had they lost in 2015, and would've lost to OKC thunder if they never won in 2015. And then KD wouldnt go to the Warriors, there wouldnt have been a Warriors dynasty had Lebron been able to stop them in both 2015 and 2016.

[8Ball]

Yeah and i am sure the Suns would have made several Finals appearances in a row without the shadow of MJ preventing them from getting past the 2nd round.

:roll:

If LeBron could play Jordan's 90s competition in the finals LeBron would have 10 championships by now. It's like playing ten 2020 Miami Heats.

[Kiddlovesnets]

If LeBron could play Jordan's 90s competition in the finals LeBron would have 10 championships by now. It's like playing ten 2020 Miami Heats.

Nope Lebron would've lost to the Lakers in 1991, Suns in 1993 and Jazz in 1997-1998, going 2/6 in this stretch which is similar to his finals record in this era.

[tontoz]

Wouldnt have 'several', but 1994 and 1995 were definitely possible if they had won in 1993. You underestimated the difference it makes to win the title and what championship mentality brings. The Warriors would not have been that good in 2016 had they lost in 2015, and would've lost to OKC thunder if they never won in 2015. And then KD wouldnt go to the Warriors, there wouldnt have been a Warriors dynasty had Lebron been able to stop them in both 2015 and 2016


Championship mentality is something the Spurs had but they don't count because they played against LeBron.

:lol

[Kiddlovesnets]

Championship mentality is something the Spurs had. The Sonics, Suns, Jazz and Blazers didn't.

Championship mentality can be gained, just look at the Warriors. If they didnt win in 2015, they would not have championship mentality in 2016, and would have won much less games. If the Suns won in 1993, they'd gain championship mentality and confidence, the FO would be more than happy to spend and keep the players too, then it would be quite possible to repeat in 1994 and even 3-peat in 1995. MJ made his opponents look weaker than they actually were, 'cause he kept defeating them. On the other hand, Lebron's opponents always looked so formidable and dominant, 'cause they always beat Lebron.

[Gimmedarock]

Bron be GOAT.

[tontoz]

Championship mentality can be gained, just look at the Warriors. If they didnt win in 2015, they would not have championship mentality in 2016, and would have won much less games. If the Suns won in 1993, they'd gain championship mentality and confidence, the FO would be more than happy to spend and keep the players too, then it would be quite possible to repeat in 1994 and even 3-peat in 1995. MJ made his opponents look weaker than they actually were, 'cause he kept defeating them. On the other hand, Lebron's opponents always looked so formidable and dominant, 'cause they always beat Lebron.


You do realize that MJ retired after that Suns series, right? The Suns wouldn't have to deal with Jordan the following year yet somehow Jordan prevented them from getting past the second round even though he wasnt in the league.

You can't make this s**t up.

:roll:

So pathetic that you can't even acknowledge the Spurs had a championship mentality.

[Kiddlovesnets]

You do realize that MJ retired after that Suns series, right? The Suns wouldn't have to deal with Jordan the following year yet somehow Jordan prevented them from getting past the second round even though he wasnt in the league.

You can't make this s**t up.

:roll:

Yeah but losing to MJ destroyed the Suns and Barkley, they choked 2 series in 1994 and 1995 and mentally they were broken. If we replace MJ by Lebron, Suns would've won in 1993 and the championship mentality would've helped them overcome the Rockets in these 2 years.

[AirBonner]

11 >>>6

[Kiddlovesnets]

11 >>>6

Bill Russell has one loss, MJ is perfect.

[tontoz]

Yeah but losing to MJ destroyed the Suns and Barkley, they choked 2 series in 1994 and 1995 and mentally they were broken. If we replace MJ by Lebron, Suns would've won in 1993 and the championship mentality would've helped them overcome the Rockets in these 2 years.


Yeah I am sure they were so broken losing by 1 point in game 6 and that caused them to lose a year and even 2 years later.

:facepalm

[Kiddlovesnets]

Yeah I am sure they were so broken losing by 1 point in game 6 and that caused them to lose a year and even 2 years later.

:facepalm

Yeah but it happens. Just like the 2007 Spurs beatdown still haunted Lebron in 2011 finals, and even 2013 finals when he played the Spurs again(Lebron played poorly for the first 5 games of that finals series). Lebron was hesitant at taking shots, he aint the same person that you normally saw in the conference playoffs games. You underestimated the mental impact of losing in NBA finals, the pressure and the confidence factor.

[AirBonner]

Bill Russell has one loss, MJ is perfect.

11 chips in 13 seasons is the GOAT ratio. MJ couldn’t even half that

[Kiddlovesnets]

11 chips in 13 seasons is the GOAT ratio. MJ couldn’t even half that

Okay but where is Lebron ranked them by your criterion?
:lol

[AirBonner]

Okay but where is Lebron ranked them by your criterion?
:lol

Obviously below both of them. Bill Russell won at a 80% plus clip. That is insane.

[tontoz]

Yeah but it happens. Just like the 2007 Spurs beatdown still haunted Lebron in 2011 finals, and even 2013 finals when he played the Spurs again(Lebron played poorly for the first 5 games of that finals series). Lebron was hesitant at taking shots, he aint the same person that you normally saw in the conference playoffs games. You underestimated the mental impact of losing in NBA finals, the pressure and the confidence factor.


The only thing I underestimated is your ability to hug Jordans nuts.

The Spurs were a tougher opponent than anyone Jordan ever faced in the Finals.

[Kiddlovesnets]

The only thing I underestimated is your ability to hug Jordans nuts.

The Spurs were a tougher opponent than anyone Jordan ever faced in the Finals.

The only thing I underestimated is your ability to defend Lebron as a Wizards fan, interesting. Perhaps 3 straight losses to Lebron from 2006 to 2008 broke you, but doesnt mean Lebron was godly as you think.

The 93 Suns and 97 Jazz were as good as the 14 Spurs, while 96 Supersonics were better than 14 Spurs and even 18 Warriors. The difference is that MJ beat these tough opponents comprehensively to make them look weaker, while Lebron always lost to opponents in finals so suddenly they looked much stronger than they were on paper.

[tontoz]

The only thing I underestimated is your ability to defend Lebron as a Wizards fan, interesting. Perhaps 3 straight losses to Lebron from 2006 to 2008 broke you, but doesnt mean Lebron was godly as you think.

The 93 Suns and 97 Jazz were as good as the 14 Spurs, while 96 Supersonics were better than 14 Spurs and even 18 Warriors. The difference is that MJ beat these tough opponents comprehensively to make them look weaker, while Lebron always lost to opponents in finals so suddenly they looked much stronger than they were on paper.


I have rooted against LeBron every finals he has ever played.
You are just a nut job.

Your claim that Jordan beat the Suns so badly that it broke them is a fantasy. Every game of that series was close. With Jordan gone the following season it was wide open for them to win a title.

Yet somehow the same fate didn't happen to the Spurs because they won one more game before losing.

That is just plain nuts.

[Hey Yo]

Lavar is wrong.... MJ didnt win 6 consecutive titles.

He required almost 2 full seasons of load management (in his prime) to achieve the 6 titles.

[bullettooth]

LOL, LeBron was never considered GOAT anyway.

[Gohan]

Lavar is wrong.... MJ didnt win 6 consecutive titles.

He required almost 2 full seasons of load management (in his prime) to achieve the 6 titles.

Lebron would load manage if it won him some of the titles he lost. Ask him

[Hey Yo]

Lebron would load manage if it won him some of the titles he lost. Ask him

What, take the MJ route in order to win more titles? No need to ask...he obviously chose not to cause he's not mentally soft.

[Kiddlovesnets]

What, take the MJ route in order to win more titles? No need to ask...he obviously chose not to cause he's not mentally soft.

So what is Lebron’s route then? Collude and make a superteam, and yet lose more finals than he wins?

[mehyaM24]

lebron already has a goat case which is why the "6-0" argument is dumb. there's a thread up on barkley/jordan (mj goes to philly from 91-93 and barkley goes to chicago those same years) asking if jordan would still win a title. most people agree he wouldn't and that proves my point. winning is circumstantial but also team dependent.

individual dominance should always be the barometer.

[Kiddlovesnets]

lebron already has a goat case which is why the "6-0" argument is dumb. there's a thread up on barkley/jordan (mj goes to philly from 91-93 and barkley goes to chicago those same years) asking if jordan would still win a title. most people agree he wouldn't and that proves my point. winning is circumstantial but also team dependent.

individual dominance should always be the barometer.

Lebron has no GOAT case at all other than some media fabricated debate that always ended up with MJ being miles ahead in the end. Just because you think Lebron has a GOAT case, doesn’t mean he actually has one, your opinion is insignificant compared to the vast majority.

Lebron does have FFOAT case though, he’s the runaway winner of runner ups:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

[Hey Yo]

So what is Lebron’s route then? Collude and make a superteam, and yet lose more finals than he wins?

Not quitting in his prime (or anytime in his career 18yr career)due to mental softness is the route.

MJ has 3 legit rings and 3 load management rings.

Those are straight facts that cannot be refuted.

[mehyaM24]

Lebron has no GOAT case at all other than some media fabricated debate that always ended up with MJ being miles ahead in the end. Just because you think Lebron has a GOAT case, doesn’t mean he actually has one, your opinion is insignificant compared to the vast majority.

not true. the media already calls lebron "goat" - and the media is also part of the majority. you don't have to like it, but nobody cares how you feel.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Not quitting in his prime (or anytime in his career 18yr career)due to mental softness is the route.

MJ has 3 legit rings and 3 load management rings.

Those are straight facts that cannot be refuted.

Lebron quit twice with the Cavaliers and once with the Heat, left his old team to collude and make new superteams. And yet he has so far managed to lose more in the finals than he won. Lebron also load managed in 2016-2018, except he didn’t win in 2017 and 2018 anyway.

[Kiddlovesnets]

not true. the media already calls lebron "goat" - and the media is also part of the majority. you don't have to like it, but nobody cares how you feel.

What media is calling him GOAT? All the GOAT rankings from major media(ESPN, Fox, CBS, SI, etc) have MJ as #1. Yeah you can make your own fake media from Twitter and claim that Lebron is GOAT, but nobody cares about the opinions of such self proclaimed media.

[Gohan]

Not quitting in his prime (or anytime in his career 18yr career)due to mental softness is the route.

MJ has 3 legit rings and 3 load management rings.

Those are straight facts that cannot be refuted.

Ok Gabrielle Douglas, the mental gymnastics are very strong with you

[Gohan]

Not quitting in his prime (or anytime in his career 18yr career)due to mental softness is the route.

MJ has 3 legit rings and 3 load management rings.

Those are straight facts that cannot be refuted.

This game can be played both ways till the point where lebron has no legit rings

12 lockout ring
13 ray allen bailout ring
16 Adam silver rig ring
20 bubble(gum) ring

Two can play your game

[mehyaM24]

espn and fox have been doing it all year. where have you been, under a rock?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTE3y1U4sWM&ab_channel=FoxSportsRadio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mFZrnieJXw&ab_channel=SkipandShannon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hddRMa-bbdc

sorry dude. accept it and move on. lebron winning another ring will only make his case stronger.

[Kiddlovesnets]

espn and fox have been doing it all year. where have you been, under a rock?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTE3y1U4sWM&ab_channel=FoxSportsRadio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mFZrnieJXw&ab_channel=SkipandShannon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hddRMa-bbdc

sorry dude. accept it and move on. lebron winning another ring will only make his case stronger.

So where’s the all time ranking list? Just some podcasts really? People talk about random things in these shows, its not meant for serious discussion unless its an article with analysts from the major media. If you want to make the case, at least wait till a major media releases their new top 100 all time list, though its guaranteed that MJ will still be #1 as deserved.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron quit twice with the Cavaliers and once with the Heat, left his old team to collude and make new superteams. And yet he has so far managed to lose more in the finals than he won. Lebron also load managed in 2016-2018, except he didn’t win in 2017 and 2018 anyway.

Playing out your contract and exercising your free agent rights >>>> quitting the league in the middle of your contract for the necessity to load manage due to mental and physical exhaustion.

Straight facts, Chico.

[mehyaM24]

So where’s the all time ranking list? Just some podcasts really? People talk about random things in these shows, its not meant for serious discussion unless its an article with analysts from the major media. If you want to make the case, at least wait till a major media releases their new top 100 all time list, though its guaranteed that MJ will still be #1 as deserved.

those aren't podcasts clown. they're television shows. and if you watched the clips, their case for lebron is straightforward.

i don't have an opinion either way, but you are naive to think only jordan gets "goat" talk.

[Hey Yo]

Ok Gabrielle Douglas, the mental gymnastics are very strong with you

Facts aren't mental gymnastics

[kawhileonard2]

What, take the MJ route in order to win more titles? No need to ask...he obviously chose not to cause he's not mentally soft.

You mean turn a franchise that never won before that drafted you and turn them into a dynasty?

[Hey Yo]

This game can be played both ways till the point where lebron has no legit rings

12 lockout ring
13 ray allen bailout ring
16 Adam silver rig ring
20 bubble(gum) ring

Two can play your game

All done in consecutive seasons. Can't say the same for MJ. He wasnt able to play more than 7 consecutive seasons with 3 straight finals appearances before needing to quit the league for load management.

[Chick Stern]

Bill Russell has one loss, MJ is perfect.
*during the weakest NBA decade.

if you quit, or are suspended, you ain’t the GOAT.

[Gohan]

All done in consecutive seasons. Can't say the same for MJ. He wasnt able to play more than 7 consecutive seasons with 3 straight finals appearances before needing to quit the league for load management.

So basically you’re bragging about lebrons steroid use. Interesting

[Chick Stern]

So basically you’re bragging about lebrons steroid use. Interesting
Jordan was on roids and still couldn’t hang

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron was on roids and still won bronze medal.

[Hey Yo]

So basically you’re bragging about lebrons steroid use. Interesting

The years you cited all happened in 7 consecutive seasons. No need for steroids for a player to achieve 7 seasons.

[Kiddlovesnets]

*during the weakest NBA decade.

if you quit, or are suspended, you ain’t the GOAT.

The 90s was stronger than 10s. MJ beat everyone in the finals so his opponents all looked worse than they actually were, while Lebron always lost in the finals so his opponents all looked like superteams. Replace Lebron by MJ on the Cavs, Warriors would have no title and no one would remember them. Replace MJ by Lebron on the Bulls, they would won 2 out of 6 and we would hear endlessly how MJ wouldn’t be able to beat the Lakers, Suns, SuperSonics and Jazz.

[Ainosterhaspie]

There are five players with a GOAT case. They are Jordan, Kareem, LeBron, Russell, Wilt. The case for some of these is stronger than others, but each has a case.

LeBron's case compared to Jordan is that he is the better defender, playmaker and rebounder and is close to as good a scorer. He is a better finisher at the rim and from three. Jordan is a better mid range shooter (generally the least value scoring method, but it is a great advantage to be good at this in particular moments of close games), but other than that LeBron is as good or better as a scorer.

LeBron came into the league at a younger age and was immediately a great player. He was allNBA while Jordan was still in college. No one has as many allNBA team awards as LeBron. He has been elite longer than any player other than Kareem. LeBron's peak is on par with Jordan (there are good arguments both ways) but LeBron demolishes him on extended peak and prime. Only Kareem is close to playing at as high a level for as long as LeBron. LeBron was already good enough to lead a (well constructed) team to a title at 22 and still is at 36. Jordan was not and didn't even attempt to be that good that long.

Now people may disagree with some of this, and Jordan certainly has a legitimate argument as being the better player, but LeBron has a strong case and it's getting stronger.

[Axe]

The ones propping up baldan are usually casuals.

[Kiddlovesnets]

The ones propping up baldan are usually casuals.

lebronstans thinking their idol is even in the GOAT conversation is ludicrous. Lebron has to surpass Magic and then Kareem, cant make a GOAT case when he has to make a case for top 2-3 first.
:lol

[hateraid]

Luck plays a big factor in Single elimination games, but if you manage to win multiple it has merit. Brady won 7 Super Bowls, so that’s enough to prove a lot of points.

So then Eli beating him twice isn't luck. There goes your theory

[Lebron23]

lebronstans thinking their idol is even in the GOAT conversation is ludicrous. Lebron has to surpass Magic and then Kareem, cant make a GOAT case when he has to make a case for top 2-3 first.
:lol

You are retarded

[Axe]

lebronstans thinking their idol is even in the GOAT conversation is ludicrous. Lebron has to surpass Magic and then Kareem, cant make a GOAT case when he has to make a case for top 2-3 first.
:lol
You clown him too much for his losing finals record when there are tons of players around the league who wished they could play in the finals for more than once.

[8Ball]

Jordan is 1-9 in the 1st round without Pippen. Can't be the GOAT with a losing record in 1st round without Pippen.