Top 25 Point Guards of All-Time Voting Part 3: Players 11-15

[L.Kizzle]

Select and rank the next five (players 11 through 15) of the greatest POINT GUARDS of All-Time. A 48 Hour window will be given to make your choices or debate why said player should or shouldn’t be here. After 48 Hours, the top five will be selected and another five will be added to the pool of players.


Players to Choose From:
Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway
Bob Cousy
Chauncey Billups
Damian Lillard
Dave Bing
Dennis Johnson
Derrick Rose
Jo Jo White
Kevin Johnson
Lenny Wilkens
Mark Price
Nate 'Tiny' Archibald
Russell Westbrook
Tim Hardaway
Tony Parker


Top 25 Point Guards: 1-10
1 'Magic' Johnson
2 Stephen Curry
3 Oscar Robertson
4 Isiah Thomas
5 Chris Paul
6 Steve Nash
7 John Stockton
8 Jason Kidd
9 Walt 'Clyde' Frazier
9 Gary Payton


Voting Results
Number of Voters - 10
Number of Players Receiving Votes - 7


Steve Nash (4) 1st Place / (2) 2nd Place / (3) 3rd Place = 69 Points
John Stockton (2) 1st Place / (1) 2nd Place / (2) 3rd Place / (5) 4th Place = 52 Points
Jason Kidd (1) 1st Place / (3) 2nd Place / (2) 3rd Place / (2) 4th Place / (1) 5th Place = 48 Points
Walt 'Clyde' Frazier (2) 2nd Place / (1) 3rd Place / (1) 4th Place / (3) 5th Place = 25 Points
Gary Payton (1) 1st Place / (1) 3rd Place / (2) 4th Place / (4) 5th Place = 25 Points
Russell Westbrook (1) 1st Place / (1) 2nd Place / (1) 3rd Place / (2) 5th Place = 24 Points
Bob Cousy (1) 1st Place / (1) 2nd Place = 17 Points


Voting Criteria
Five Seasons or more played in the NBA
1st = 10 Pts
2nd = 7 Pts
3rd = 5 Pts
4th = 3 Pts
5th = 1 Pt

Top-25-Point-Guards-of-All-Time-Voting-Part-2-Players-6-10 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?487675-Top-25-Point-Guards-of-All-Time-Voting-Part-2-Players-6-10)

[SouBeachTalents]

11. Cousy
12. Westbrook
13. Parker
14. Archibald
15. Billups

[And1AllDay]

westbrook
cousy
parker
billups
lillard

[dankok8]

11. Cousy
12. Westbrook
13. Tiny
14. DJ
15. Parker

[tanibanana]

Cousy lower than Kidd and Payton is a travesty. I did not witness Cousy, just like most everyone else here. But we measure players on what they did in their time, and the context within. Just look at their resume. How can you honestly say Kidd and Payton is ahead of Cousy.

Cousy:
6x Champion (could have 1~2 FMVP)
1x Season MVP
2x All Star MVP
12x All NBA (10x 1st Team)
13x All Star
8x Assist Leader
Steals not Recorded (arguably better)

Kidd:
1x Champion
0x Season MVP
0x All Star MVP
6x All NBA (5x 1st Team)
10x All Star
5x Assist Leader
0x Steals Leader
ROY

Payton:
1x Champion
0x Season MVP
0x All Star MVP
9x All NBA (2x 1st Team)
9x All Star
0x Assist Leader
1x Steals Leader

11. B. Cousy
12. N. Archibald
13. R. Westbrook
14. L. Wilkens
15. T. Parker (D. Johnson / C. Billups could also be 15th).

[AussieSteve]

Based in the list so far, are we saying that the consensus on ISH is that Steph is top 15 all time? Or do we not rate Oscar as high as he is typically?

[L.Kizzle]

Based in the list so far, are we saying that the consensus on ISH is that Steph is top 15 all time? Or do we not rate Oscar as high as he is typically?

To be fair, Oscar received more 2nd place votes than Curry and the same amount of 3rd place. It was Steph having more overall votes that got him the victory.

[Young X]

Tony Parker being ranked this low makes no sense. He not only has 4 championships but he is one of the only PG's ever to win Finals MVP. At his best, I remember people considering him the best PG in the league.

[iamgine]

Tony Parker being ranked this low makes no sense. He not only has 4 championships but he is one of the only PG's ever to win Finals MVP. At his best, I remember people considering him the best PG in the league.

He's never considered better than Nash or CP3 but I guess there were brief times Tony's considered as 2nd best PG. The problem is, people never think of him as anything more than the 3rd best player on his own team and won't flourish outside Pop's system due too his limitations. Since we all know championships as 3rd best player usually don't mean that much, his stock naturally goes down.

[L.Kizzle]

Tony Parker being ranked this low makes no sense. He not only has 4 championships but he is one of the only PG's ever to win Finals MVP. At his best, I remember people considering him the best PG in the league.
Isiah LED his teams to 2 titles and people were saying he was voted in too high.
And I don't remember TP ever the best PG in the league. Was he even better than Gilbert Arenas?

[Phoenix]

Cousy lower than Kidd and Payton is a travesty. I did not witness Cousy, just like most everyone else here. But we measure players on what they did in their time, and the context within. Just look at their resume. How can you honestly say Kidd and Payton is ahead of Cousy.

Cousy:
6x Champion (could have 1~2 FMVP)
1x Season MVP
2x All Star MVP
12x All NBA (10x 1st Team)
13x All Star
8x Assist Leader
Steals not Recorded (arguably better)

Kidd:
1x Champion
0x Season MVP
0x All Star MVP
6x All NBA (5x 1st Team)
10x All Star
5x Assist Leader
0x Steals Leader
ROY

Payton:
1x Champion
0x Season MVP
0x All Star MVP
9x All NBA (2x 1st Team)
9x All Star
0x Assist Leader
1x Steals Leader

11. B. Cousy
12. N. Archibald
13. R. Westbrook
14. L. Wilkens
15. T. Parker (D. Johnson / C. Billups could also be 15th).

Yeah, but if that's the case someone like George Mikan should be a top 10 player but basically nobody ranks him even top 20. At this point, after 75 years there are too many versions of NBA basketball to accurately measure someone in 1950 against someone in 1990 against someone in 2020. Players developed skills to be successful in the eras they lived through. The basketball community needs to split up these things into pre and post merger leagues, or decide on a cut-off year where it's pointless to measure legacy player X vs current player Y. Because in 2050 how people view modern PGs will be how we view guys like Cousy today. It's becoming an increasingly futile conversation the further we go.

[L.Kizzle]

Yeah, but if that's the case someone like George Mikan should be a top 10 player but basically nobody ranks him even top 20. At this point, after 75 years there are too many versions of NBA basketball to accurately measure someone in 1950 against someone in 1990 against someone in 2020. Players developed skills to be successful in the eras they lived through. The basketball community needs to split up these things into pre and post merger leagues, or decide on a cut-off year where it's pointless to measure legacy player X vs current player Y. Because in 2050 how people view modern PGs will be how we view guys like Cousy today. It's becoming an increasingly futile conversation the further we go.
Mikas doesn't get ranked higher than he usualy does because he only played 6/7 seasons in the league not because he played so long ago.
That was a short time even for his day as his peers like Schayes/Arizin/Cousy played and were still all-star and all nba talents until Wilt/Russell/Baylor/West/Robertson/Pettit came along.

[dankok8]

Parker was never an elite playmaker and not very good shooting the ball. His strength was getting to the rim. To be honest in terms of pure playing ability I can't see him above a guy like Lillard in a million years but he gets in here thanks to his rings. If anything I find him overrated not underrated.

[Phoenix]

Mikas doesn't get ranked higher than he usualy does because he only played 6/7 seasons in the league not because he played so long ago.
That was a short time even for his day as his peers like Schayes/Arizin/Cousy played and were still all-star and all nba talents until Wilt/Russell/Baylor/West/Robertson/Pettit came along.

That said he also dominated the relatively few seasons he played. 5 time champ, 6 time all league, 3 time scoring champ, rebound champ, 4 time all-star. Theres guys who played twice as long and did half as much.

[L.Kizzle]

That said he also dominated the relatively few seasons he played. 5 time champ, 6 time all league, 3 time scoring champ, rebound champ, 4 time all-star. Theres guys who played twice as long and did half as much.
I get it, but we never seen him against that bunch. I think vs Pettit for a comeback season. He retired at 29 (the first time.)
He would have been 32 in Russell's rookie season, 34/35/36 by time Baylor/Wilt/West/Oscar arrived.

Shot knee Elgin Baylor was still a 24/10/5 All-NBA all-star at 35.

[Phoenix]

I get it, but we never seen him against that bunch. I think vs Pettit for a comeback season. He retired at 29 (the first time.)
He would have been 32 in Russell's rookie season, 34/35/36 by time Baylor/Wilt/West/Oscar arrived.

Shot knee Elgin Baylor was still a 24/10/5 All-NBA all-star at 35.

Only thing you can really measure these guys by is dominance within the context of their era.

[L.Kizzle]

Only thing you can really measure these guys by is dominance within the context of their era.
Oh trust, I actually rank Milan higher than most.

[dankok8]

Thing is that most people usually consider only the shot-clock era when making rankings. Whether they explicitly state so or not... That's why Mikan is usually way too low.

[Young X]

He's never considered better than Nash or CP3 but I guess there were brief times Tony's considered as 2nd best PG. The problem is, people never think of him as anything more than the 3rd best player on his own team and won't flourish outside Pop's system due too his limitations. Since we all know championships as 3rd best player usually don't mean that much, his stock naturally goes down.In the early 2010's he and CP3 were the best PG's along with Derrick Rose.

[L.Kizzle]

In the early 2010's he and CP3 were the best PG's along with Derrick Rose.
Tony seems like a guy who will be forgotten about in the next ten years. He never did anything astrodnary that stood out, just produced when need be.

[Young X]

Tony seems like a guy who will be forgotten about in the next ten years. He never did anything astrodnary that stood out, just produced when need be.I mean he won a damn Finals MVP and averaged 24.5 PPG in the series. That doesn't stand out?

Do people not remember how good he was in the 2013 season?

[L.Kizzle]

I mean he won a damn Finals MVP and averaged 24.5 PPG in the series. That doesn't stand out?

Do people not remember how good he was in the 2013 season?
On the court he just never stood out.
Why Tony over Dennis Johnson or someone like that?

[Doranku]

Tony Parker being ranked this low makes no sense. He not only has 4 championships but he is one of the only PG's ever to win Finals MVP. At his best, I remember people considering him the best PG in the league.

When the hell was Tony Parker considered the best PG in the league? :lol

[Young X]

On the court he just never stood out.
Why Tony over Dennis Johnson or someone like that?

Dennis Johnson also deserves more credit same thing with Billups. All these guys are literally Finals MVP's. It makes no sense to have Isiah Thomas ranked THAT much higher than these guys.

[Young X]

When the hell was Tony Parker considered the best PG in the league? :lol
2012-2014. I didn't say he WAS the best but he was in the conversation for sure. It was debatable.

[Young X]

And why is Jason Kidd always ranked higher than Gary Payton? Kidd was a great player but he was a limited offensive player. The voting is all wrong.

[Doranku]

2012-2014. I didn't say he WAS the best but he was in the conversation for sure. It was debatable.

This is a weird take coming from a CP3 guy. :lol He was up there, top 5 for sure, but I don't think he ever had an argument over CP3 and I'm the biggest CP3 hater on this site. Parker seems like a guy who greatly benefited from playing in the Spurs system. I don't think he'd be as effective on another team as the #1 option.

[tanibanana]

Dennis Johnson also deserves more credit same thing with Billups. All these guys are literally Finals MVP's. It makes no sense to have Isiah Thomas ranked THAT much higher than these guys.

At what exact spot/rank are you going to put Parker, Johnson and Billups?

For me, if these three players got the spots anywhere from this 5 spots/ranks #13 to #17. Then we could say, they just get rated accordingly.

There is no way TP, DJ and CB; should be rank higher than these 11 players: Magic, Curry, Robertson, Thomas, Paul, Cousy, Stockton, Frazier, Nash, Kidd, Payton.

Tony Parker so far is getting the right credit. So far it has been Cousy and Frazier who gets no love. While Kidd and Payton got more undeserving votes. (but i get that, its cool, that's how it works, like it or not).

[L.Kizzle]

Dennis Johnson also deserves more credit same thing with Billups. All these guys are literally Finals MVP's. It makes no sense to have Isiah Thomas ranked THAT much higher than these guys.
Because Thomas led the team. Was DJ the best player on Seattle (Gus/Jack) or Chauncey in Detroit (Ben/Sheed/Rip) and we know about TP. Bad Boys was Zekes team.

[Young X]

Because Thomas led the team. Was DJ the best player on Seattle (Gus/Jack) or Chauncey in Detroit (Ben/Sheed/Rip) and we know about TP. Bad Boys was Zekes team.
Chauncey was the best player and leader of that Pistons team.


This is a weird take coming from a CP3 guy. :lol He was up there, top 5 for sure, but I don't think he ever had an argument over CP3 and I'm the biggest CP3 hater on this site. Parker seems like a guy who greatly benefited from playing in the Spurs system. I don't think he'd be as effective on another team as the #1 option.That's not true. He always had the winning argument over CP3 just like any one who gets compared to him.

CP3 was getting eliminated in the first round while Parker was going to the finals. And Parker and the Spurs were the ones knocking him out of the playoffs.

There was definitely a debate back then for who the best PG was.

[L.Kizzle]

Chauncey was the best player and leader of that Pistons team.

That's not true. He always had the winning argument over CP3 just like any one who gets compared to him.

CP3 was getting eliminated in the first round while Parker was going to the finals. And Parker and the Spurs were the ones knocking him out of the playoffs.

There was definitely a debate back then for who the best PG was.
Big Ben was the Pistons leader not Billups.

And no one though Parker was EVER better than CP3 no matter how many rings he got.

No one ever thought Glenn Robinson was better than McGrady because the Bucks eliminated the Magic.

[TheCorporation]

1. Westbrook
2. Cousy
3. Parker
4. Lillard
5. Billups

[Young X]

Big Ben was the Pistons leader not Billups.

And no one though Parker was EVER better than CP3 no matter how many rings he got.

No one ever thought Glenn Robinson was better than McGrady because the Bucks eliminated the Magic.

lol Glenn Robinson wasn't a hall of famer. He wasn't top 5 in MVP voting, he didn't make an All-NBA 2nd team. Or win a Finals MVP. That's disrespectful.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm actually shocked that the top guards of the 90s have yet to get any love yet?
KJ
Price
The Hardaway's

[TheCorporation]

I'm actually shocked that the top guards of the 90s have yet to get any love yet?
KJ
Price
The Hardaway's

I'll go easy on you since you seem like a decent poster on this board. The 1990s was a very weak time for basketball and as a result the votes are backing this up.

Imagine plopping down Westbrook or Chris Paul or Dame in the 90s? They would probably look like MJ light in all seriousness.

[ELITEpower23]

Bob Cousy
Russ Wess
Tony Parker
Tiny Archibald
Chauncy Billups

[L.Kizzle]

Bob Cousy
Russ Wess
Tony Parker
Tiny Archibald
Chauncy Billups
You voted one minute before the voting ended, and your order is the order they came in.

[L.Kizzle]

CP3 was voted number 5 on last year. Is he right where he needs to be? Too high or too low?