Was MJ overrated? (Thoughts inside)

[2ball]

Michael Jordan came into the NBA after 3 years of North Carolina basketball. He had an outstanding rookie season with the Bills scoring 28.2 ppg with a .518 efg%. Statistically speaking, his rookie year was about average when compared to his other seasons on the Bulls. In other words, Michael Jordan came into the league basically a finished product. A testimony to his talent no doubt.

But if that's the case, then we have a handful of good examples that show how the Bulls performed without him compared to with him.

In 1983/1984 the Jordanless Bulls finished with a regular season record of 27-55.

In 1984/1985 the Bulls got rookie Jordan (a nearly finished product) and the Bulls improved to 38-44. An 11 game improvement.

Then, early next season Jordan went down with an ankle injury and the Bulls finished the season with a 30-52 record. 8 games worse than the previous year.

Jordan comes back healthy in 1986/1987 and the Bulls go 40-42. A 10 game improvement over the previous year.

Fast forward to Michael Jordans surprise early retirement at the height of his powers and popularity .

In 1993 The Bulls go 57-25, when winning their third championship.

Jordan shocks the world (and the Bulls) and retires. The result? In 1994 the Bulls go 55-27, and get ousted by the Knicks in 7 games of the second round. In terms of regular season performance, that's a 2 game decrease over the previous year.

So we have 4 examples showing Michael Jordan was good for +11, -8, +10, -2.

So the greatest player of all time, basically only accounts for roughly +7.75 games on the teams he played for.


I've done similar research on LeBron James impact on his teams and I've tabulated that he's good for +25.5 games, which is more than 3x the impact Jordan had.

[3ball]

Michael Jordan came into the NBA after 3 years of North Carolina basketball. He had an outstanding rookie season with the Bills scoring 28.2 ppg with a .518 efg%. Statistically speaking, his rookie year was about average when compared to his other seasons on the Bulls. In other words, Michael Jordan came into the league basically a finished product. A testimony to his talent no doubt.

But if that's the case, then we have a handful of good examples that show how the Bulls performed without him compared to with him.

In 1983/1984 the Jordanless Bulls finished with a regular season record of 27-55.

In 1984/1985 the Bulls got rookie Jordan (a nearly finished product) and the Bulls improved to 38-44. An 11 game improvement.

Then, early next season Jordan went down with an ankle injury and the Bulls finished the season with a 30-52 record. 8 games worse than the previous year.

Jordan comes back healthy in 1986/1987 and the Bulls go 40-42. A 10 game improvement over the previous year.

Fast forward to Michael Jordans surprise early retirement at the height of his powers and popularity .

In 1993 The Bulls go 57-25, when winning their third championship.

Jordan shocks the world (and the Bulls) and retires. The result? In 1994 the Bulls go 55-27, and get ousted by the Knicks in 7 games of the second round. In terms of regular season performance, that's a 2 game decrease over the previous year.

So we have 4 examples showing Michael Jordan was good for +11, -8, +10, -2.

So the greatest player of all time, basically only accounts for roughly +7.75 games on the teams he played for.


I've done similar research on LeBron James impact on his teams and I've tabulated that he's good for +25.5 games, which is more than 3x the impact Jordan had.

You're numbers for lebron are wrong because him and Bosh were added in 11', and love was added in 15' (not just lebron).. then these same players got hurt after he left.. finally, the 11' Cavs didn't just lose Lebron, they lost the entire starting 5 that averaged 52 ppg combined.

Ultimately, your numbers show Jordan improved 20-something win teams by 10-20 games (you didn't include the games that 86' Jordan played in your analysis where the bulls were 9-9)... And the 93' to 94' gap is like KD's 3-peat Warriors falling to a bum 2nd round team.. the goat fall-off... so I'm not sure what you're saying

[And1AllDay]

@ age 22

2007 bran = finals
1985 mike = 1st rd swept

[3ball]

age 22-23 vs championship comp and #1 defense

2007 bran = 22 on 35% (duncan laughing at him to his face afterwards)

1986 mike = 44 on 50% (legendary playoff record.. goat talk already)



fixed

[Young X]

Why did you leave out the '95 Bulls? They went 34-31. And then when Jordan came back they went 13-4.

And you conveniently left out all the games Jordan missed in the 80's and early 90's. The Bulls had a terrible record without him.

[nayte]

Why did you leave out the '95 Bulls? They went 34-31. And then when Jordan came back they went 13-4.

And you conveniently left out all the games Jordan missed in the 80's and early 90's. The Bulls had a terrible record without him.

Ehh why do U and the rest keep on replying to these obviously troll threads.

[Manny98]

He's overrated in the sense that people act like he's a tier above Kareem, Russell and LeBron when he's not
The big 4 all have equally compelling arguments for being the GOAT depending on your personal criteria

[TheGoatest]

Definitely.

The myth that was built around this guy... Many young people of today have no idea that he was 1-9 without Pippen and that the Bulls lost only 2 games less the season after he left them.

[Carbine]

It hurts my brain to see people use his rookie numbers as evidence he was essentially a finished product.

God damn there are a lot of stupid people out there.

[Cyrus334]

Definitely.

The myth that was built around this guy... Many young people of today have no idea that he was 1-9 without Pippen and that the Bulls lost only 2 games less the season after he left them.

I'm sure every young person knows this by now with how frequent Lebron's cult of worshippers like Shannon, Nick Wright, and Colin go on TV and spout it.

Wnat I find funny is that some people actually believe 1-9 means Jordan won only 1 playoff series out of 9 and aren't aware that back then, the 1st round was a best of 5.

[leBron Bieber]

Michael Jordan came into the NBA after 3 years of North Carolina basketball. He had an outstanding rookie season with the Bills scoring 28.2 ppg with a .518 efg%. Statistically speaking, his rookie year was about average when compared to his other seasons on the Bulls. In other words, Michael Jordan came into the league basically a finished product. A testimony to his talent no doubt.

But if that's the case, then we have a handful of good examples that show how the Bulls performed without him compared to with him.

In 1983/1984 the Jordanless Bulls finished with a regular season record of 27-55.

In 1984/1985 the Bulls got rookie Jordan (a nearly finished product) and the Bulls improved to 38-44. An 11 game improvement.

Then, early next season Jordan went down with an ankle injury and the Bulls finished the season with a 30-52 record. 8 games worse than the previous year.

Jordan comes back healthy in 1986/1987 and the Bulls go 40-42. A 10 game improvement over the previous year.

Fast forward to Michael Jordans surprise early retirement at the height of his powers and popularity .

In 1993 The Bulls go 57-25, when winning their third championship.

Jordan shocks the world (and the Bulls) and retires. The result? In 1994 the Bulls go 55-27, and get ousted by the Knicks in 7 games of the second round. In terms of regular season performance, that's a 2 game decrease over the previous year.

So we have 4 examples showing Michael Jordan was good for +11, -8, +10, -2.

So the greatest player of all time, basically only accounts for roughly +7.75 games on the teams he played for.


I've done similar research on LeBron James impact on his teams and I've tabulated that he's good for +25.5 games, which is more than 3x the impact Jordan had.
Jordan is still the goat scorer . He did what wilt couldn’t do in a sense for how he approached the game . This is why magic is so high in most list , him and Jordan are not the same type of player . Magic and lebron are similar but lebron is a super athlete like most scorer were in the past .

Jordan’s true comp is KD .. he should just shoot for scoring titles and rings at this point like mj did cause lebron already took the all around nba player game to the next level .

[97 bulls]

He's overrated in the sense that people act like he's a tier above Kareem, Russell and LeBron when he's not
The big 4 all have equally compelling arguments for being the GOAT depending on your personal criteria

He is a tier above the rest.

I can shoot gaping holes in the careers of every NBA players argument as to why they should be considered the GOAT. Especially when applying context.

The only argument one can give against MJ is that he was "1-9" in his early playoff goings. But again, context is key. Those playoff losses came at the hands of 2 of the best teams in the history of the in the 80s Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons. The other coming against the Milwaukee Bucks. A team that had the 3rd best record in the 80s after the Showtime Lakers and the 80s Celtics.

In 15 years, MJ led teams NEVER lost as the favorite. No other player can boast such a claim. Not Magic, not Bryant, not James, not Jabaar, not Shaq, not Duncan, not Bird.

[HoopsNY]

It hurts my brain to see people use his rookie numbers as evidence he was essentially a finished product.

God damn there are a lot of stupid people out there.

Your average Bran stan can't think too deeply about a topic. Imagine thinking a rookie who didn't get past the first round, wasn't an MVP, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, or win a scoring title is a "finished product" alongside a player who did all of the above plus win a ring and FMVP.

[MadDog]

The OP (dumbass) is literally holding Jordan's rookie and sophomore playoff record against him. :rolleyes: Meanwhile rookie and sophomore LeBron, the OP's hero, missed the playoffs altogether. And has less rings than Jordan in more seasons played. Can't make this shit up. :oldlol:

[Gus Hemmingway]

The OP (dumbass) is literally holding Jordan's rookie and sophomore playoff record against him. :rolleyes: Meanwhile rookie and sophomore LeBron, the OP's hero, missed the playoffs altogether. And has less rings than Jordan in more seasons played. Can't make this shit up. :oldlol:


22 year old LeBron made the Finals

22 year old Jordan lost in the 1st round

[And1AllDay]

22 year old LeBron made the Finals

22 year old Jordan lost in the 1st round

issa bloodbath

[paksat]

22 year old LeBron made the Finals

22 year old Jordan lost in the 1st round

35 year old jordan never lost in the finals.. ever

[Axe]

He is a tier above the rest.

I can shoot gaping holes in the careers of every NBA players argument as to why they should be considered the GOAT. Especially when applying context.

The only argument one can give against MJ is that he was "1-9" in his early playoff goings. But again, context is key. Those playoff losses came at the hands of 2 of the best teams in the history of the in the 80s Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons. The other coming against the Milwaukee Bucks. A team that had the 3rd best record in the 80s after the Showtime Lakers and the 80s Celtics.

In 15 years, MJ led teams NEVER lost as the favorite. No other player can boast such a claim. Not Magic, not Bryant, not James, not Jabaar, not Shaq, not Duncan, not Bird.
Great iq post

But if they don't use the 1-9 argument against him, they'll mostly say that his competition was weak. Or what i've mentioned before, he started dominating when the bad boy pistons got obsolete after the implementation of the flagrant foul.

Still, the dynasty was so great when they're complete. And the bulls were the first team to win 70 games in the season, and with a chip in them as well.

As a bulls stan, i appreciate those feats a lot.

[Baller789]

MJ gets overrated a lot.

But Lebronturds overexagerrate the slight flaws in his resume. Sometimes with stat manipulation and blatant lying.

[97 bulls]

Great iq post

But if they don't use the 1-9 argument against him, they'll mostly say that his competition was weak. Or what i've mentioned before, he started dominating when the bad boy pistons got obsolete after the implementation of the flagrant foul.

Still, the dynasty was so great when they're complete. And the bulls were the first team to win 70 games in the season, and with a chip in them as well.

As a bulls stan, i appreciate those feats a lot.

There was nothing weak about the Bulls competition. Consider this. Nobody considers the 91 Bulls the best team of their run. But they beat 2 Dynasties in the Bad Boy Pistons and the Showtime Lakers 8-1. No they werent old. Yes the Lakers didnt have Kareem, but they had very good Centers replacing him.

The fact is, if were gonna penalize the Bulls for not beating the 87 Lakers or the 86 Celtics or the 90 Pistons, then we must apply the same logic to every other team.

I always say, the standard seems to be so much loftier when were discussing MJ, the Bulls, or even Scottie Pippen.

Go back and look at all the teams we consider Alltime great and who they beat. How many hofers are on that 86 Rockets team? One I believe. Sampson made the Hall of fame because of his college career. If we use that logic, then the Lakers had 3 Hofers in 91 in Magic, Worthy, and Divac. Again, I can pick holes in the competition of all time great teams.

Theres no way anyone can say that the 87 Lakers or the 86 Celtics are the best team ever when if were going off who they beat. The 86 Celtics best a solid Houston Rockets team and the 87 Lakers had a cupcake walk to the NBA Finals before playing an injured Cletics team.

Even today. James Cavs beat an injured Warriors team. The same for the Warriors when they beat the Cavs.

[SATAN]

MJ was great but yes he was over rated in some aspects. Although it's not surprising when the NBA, Nike and various media companies knew they could make so much money off the gullible by creating a larger than life image of the man. To think it's impossible for anyone to ever be better while MJ hadn't even retired is pure ignorance. I heard that a bit back in the day from MJ stans who never played a game of basketball in their lives and all but stopped watching basketball after MJ retired.

Those guys...they MASSIVELY over rate him even if he was a great player. Hearing them still talk about basketball now is embarrassing. Oddly enough they are not even really big enough basketball fans to know that the term "casual" is a thing. We have to share a society with these kind of people. Sad. Really sad.

[HoopsNY]

There was nothing weak about the Bulls competition. Consider this. Nobody considers the 91 Bulls the best team of their run. But they beat 2 Dynasties in the Bad Boy Pistons and the Showtime Lakers 8-1. No they werent old. Yes the Lakers didnt have Kareem, but they had very good Centers replacing him.

Yep. The Lakers won the title in both '87 and '88.

Kareem Finals

1987: 22/7/1 with 2.5 blks on 51% FGs/55% TS%
1988: 13/4/1 with 1 blk on 41% FGs/46% TS%

Divac Finals 1991: 18/9/2 with 2.4 blks on 57% FGs/61% TS%

Fact remains is that Divac's name is a lot less sexy than Kareem's, so Bran stans want to eliminate him from the discussion all together.


The fact is, if were gonna penalize the Bulls for not beating the 87 Lakers or the 86 Celtics or the 90 Pistons, then we must apply the same logic to every other team.

I always say, the standard seems to be so much loftier when were discussing MJ, the Bulls, or even Scottie Pippen.

Of course. But what's funny is that you would think LeBron hasn't had stacked teams as well. It's funny when they harp about "HOF'ers" (an entirely new fangled argument that wasn't discussed the first 60 years), yet the Lakers have arguably 4 HOF'ers on the team that beat a Miami team vs Miami's 1?

[HoopsNY]

MJ was great but yes he was over rated in some aspects. Although it's not surprising when the NBA, Nike and various media companies knew they could make so much money off the gullible by creating a larger than life image of the man. To think it's impossible for anyone to ever be better while MJ hadn't even retired is pure ignorance. I heard that a bit back in the day from MJ stans who never played a game of basketball in their lives and all but stopped watching basketball after MJ retired.


The league's ratings plummeted after MJ retired. Why do you think MJ returned in 2001? To make money? Btw, how's the league's ratings doing the last 10 years?


Those guys...they MASSIVELY over rate him even if he was a great player. Hearing them still talk about basketball now is embarrassing. Oddly enough they are not even really big enough basketball fans to know that the term "casual" is a thing. We have to share a society with these kind of people. Sad. Really sad.


"Even if he was a great player!" :lol It just gets worse with Bran stans. MJ goes from the GOAT, to one of the greatest, to top 10, to now not being sure if he was a great player at all!

I mean, you're crying about sharing a society with people like MJ fans, yet Bran stans never respond to the arguments posed by fans, right on this forum. The consistent response is, "1-9!" "No Pip No Chip!" Give me a break.

[Carbine]

There was nothing weak about the Bulls competition. Consider this. Nobody considers the 91 Bulls the best team of their run. But they beat 2 Dynasties in the Bad Boy Pistons and the Showtime Lakers 8-1. No they werent old. Yes the Lakers didnt have Kareem, but they had very good Centers replacing him.

The fact is, if were gonna penalize the Bulls for not beating the 87 Lakers or the 86 Celtics or the 90 Pistons, then we must apply the same logic to every other team.

I always say, the standard seems to be so much loftier when were discussing MJ, the Bulls, or even Scottie Pippen.

Go back and look at all the teams we consider Alltime great and who they beat. How many hofers are on that 86 Rockets team? One I believe. Sampson made the Hall of fame because of his college career. If we use that logic, then the Lakers had 3 Hofers in 91 in Magic, Worthy, and Divac. Again, I can pick holes in the competition of all time great teams.

Theres no way anyone can say that the 87 Lakers or the 86 Celtics are the best team ever when if were going off who they beat. The 86 Celtics best a solid Houston Rockets team and the 87 Lakers had a cupcake walk to the NBA Finals before playing an injured Cletics team.

Even today. James Cavs beat an injured Warriors team. The same for the Warriors when they beat the Cavs.

I don't think they're going to be better than the '96 bulls when I get through it, but up to this point of watching the first three peat the '91 team was definitely the best IMO.

Pippen was at his offensive best that post season for his entire 6 title playoff run, the team waa ultra hungry and focused and the players besides Pippen and Jordan were playing great ball in the playoffs.

[MadDog]

MJ was great but yes he was over rated in some aspects. Although it's not surprising when the NBA, Nike and various media companies knew they could make so much money off the gullible by creating a larger than life image of the man. To think it's impossible for anyone to ever be better while MJ hadn't even retired is pure ignorance. I heard that a bit back in the day from MJ stans who never played a game of basketball in their lives and all but stopped watching basketball after MJ retired.

Those guys...they MASSIVELY over rate him even if he was a great player. Hearing them still talk about basketball now is embarrassing. Oddly enough they are not even really big enough basketball fans to know that the term "casual" is a thing. We have to share a society with these kind of people. Sad. Really sad.

This dumb motherfukker always rambles on without saying shit. :oldlol: Going on about "Nike" and the "media" yet somehow he doesn't think they do the SAME thing for LeBron. Newsflash moron: The media is more prevalent than EVER now with social media and different venues ONLINE. LeBron benefits from that. The "media" (mostly Nick Wright and Cowherd -- the same people who have never played a sport in their life) push LeBron's numbers yet in most cases they STILL don't lineup with Jordan's. Among other feats like rings, individual accolades and records. Jordan's game did the talking and all of that other stuff was just the backdrop. LeBron's "GOAT" hype is built on fluff and hypothetical.

[dankok8]

I would argue that MJ is actually underrated among young fans that never saw him.

[97 bulls]

I don't think they're going to be better than the '96 bulls when I get through it, but up to this point of watching the first three peat the '91 team was definitely the best IMO.

Pippen was at his offensive best that post season for his entire 6 title playoff run, the team waa ultra hungry and focused and the players besides Pippen and Jordan were playing great ball in the playoffs.

I actually think that 91 was their most dominant performance from the standpoint of surface level eye test. But Talent? It the 96 Bulls hands down.

I dont penalize teams for how they win a championship so long as they win. The circumstances change over time. The 91 Bulls were relatively injury free when compared to the 96 Bulls. In 96, Pip was hurt, Kukoc was hurt, Harper was hurt. And they played a much better defensive team in the Seattle Supersonics. Notice how different the game was played between 91 and 96. My point is that the 91 team wasnt as good as the 96 team. Even though the 91 Championship looked easier.

[Axe]

There was nothing weak about the Bulls competition. Consider this. Nobody considers the 91 Bulls the best team of their run. But they beat 2 Dynasties in the Bad Boy Pistons and the Showtime Lakers 8-1. No they werent old. Yes the Lakers didnt have Kareem, but they had very good Centers replacing him.

The fact is, if were gonna penalize the Bulls for not beating the 87 Lakers or the 86 Celtics or the 90 Pistons, then we must apply the same logic to every other team.

I always say, the standard seems to be so much loftier when were discussing MJ, the Bulls, or even Scottie Pippen.

Go back and look at all the teams we consider Alltime great and who they beat. How many hofers are on that 86 Rockets team? One I believe. Sampson made the Hall of fame because of his college career. If we use that logic, then the Lakers had 3 Hofers in 91 in Magic, Worthy, and Divac. Again, I can pick holes in the competition of all time great teams.

Theres no way anyone can say that the 87 Lakers or the 86 Celtics are the best team ever when if were going off who they beat. The 86 Celtics best a solid Houston Rockets team and the 87 Lakers had a cupcake walk to the NBA Finals before playing an injured Cletics team.

Even today. James Cavs beat an injured Warriors team. The same for the Warriors when they beat the Cavs.
Yeah.

It's just annoying that there are lots of trolls in this place that berate mj so they had to point that out. Could be also due to 3ball propping him that much and we know he doesn't give enough credit to anybody who contributed to the bulls dynasty so there's also that.

And pistons dynasty? Well i guess they were but they were short-lived tho. Kinda wish the rockets could have met the bulls in the finals after their '95 championship season but unfortunately that never happened.

Anyway if we're comparing two teams from the dynasty, a lot of people would point out the '96 bulls are better than the '91 bulls mostly because on paper, they won 72 games during the rs.

[SATAN]

This dumb motherfukker always rambles on without saying shit. :oldlol: Going on about "Nike" and the "media" yet somehow he doesn't think they do the SAME thing for LeBron. Newsflash moron: The media is more prevalent than EVER now with social media and different venues ONLINE. LeBron benefits from that. The "media" (mostly Nick Wright and Cowherd -- the same people who have never played a sport in their life) push LeBron's numbers yet in most cases they STILL don't lineup with Jordan's. Among other feats like rings, individual accolades and records. Jordan's game did the talking and all of that other stuff was just the backdrop. LeBron's "GOAT" hype is built on fluff and hypothetical.

Mj admitted he couldn't even handle today's media environment. Of course you'll point to someone like Nick Wright without mentioning the fact he often gets laughed at by fellow cast members who seem to be MJ stans. How about Skip Bayless? No mention of him? The argument is almost pointless and cancels itself out.

"Jordan's game did the talking" :oldlol::facepalm

Dude get ****in' real. He was the media and NBA darling. He was a walking PR machine. Video after video. Oprah interview after Oprah interview. But it's no good when Nick Wright gets on air and talks about LeBron or LeBron tweets something? :lol

Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

Were you even alive to see MJ play?

I don't even dislike MJ but it's hard not to call out all the absolute nonsense that's been spewed into the air over the past 3 decades. Especially by "casuals" like so many MJ stans are.

I'm also a better person than you.

[Axe]

You don't dislike mj but you clowned about him in the magic hiv thread, imagining what if he had the hiv instead? :oldlol:

Lmao the irony. Now you're going to tell to stfu again as usual.

[SATAN]

The league's ratings plummeted after MJ retired. Why do you think MJ returned in 2001? To make money? Btw, how's the league's ratings doing the last 10 years?



"Even if he was a great player!" :lol It just gets worse with Bran stans. MJ goes from the GOAT, to one of the greatest, to top 10, to now not being sure if he was a great player at all!

I mean, you're crying about sharing a society with people like MJ fans, yet Bran stans never respond to the arguments posed by fans, right on this forum. The consistent response is, "1-9!" "No Pip No Chip!" Give me a break.

What's ratings or MJ's return got to do with anything? It is funny you mention that actually because a friend who is a citified casual and LeBron hater sent me a message one day about the low ratings in the bubble. He used that as evidence of MJ being the goat. You guys honestly wonder why you're being clowned so much these days when you've lowered the bar to viewership ratings during a pandemic and wide spread social upheaval, when almost all sports ratings are down... as opposed to the actual game of basketball?? :oldlol::facepalm

"Even if" - that's poorly worded. Fine.

I'm not sure what you mean about "Bran stans" never responding unless it's a 3ball thread that consists of the same thing being said over and over again. Plenty have responded and the arguments just go around in circles. "didn't lose finals" "lost finals" "sidekick" "zone defense" ect ect ect

[SATAN]

You don't dislike mj but you clowned about him in the magic hiv thread, imagining what if he had the hiv instead? :oldlol:

Lmao the irony. Now you're going to tell to stfu again as usual.

Yes it would have been funny due to most MJ stans being very ignorant and homophobic. They would probably never watch basketball again. Not that they watch much since MJ's final retirement anyway. Who knows, it may have been great for basketball not having MJ stans constantly bitching about new players and proclaiming the plumbers and accountants of yesteryear played defense that was similar to actual bar brawls or Vietnam skirmishes.

[colts19]

Here's the thing, for the last 20 years you never heard of MJ having any faults. It was only how much greater he was then Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Magic, KAJ and Bird. Now you have an era where you have a generation of fans who have to try to find fault with MJ to knock him down so then can bring Bron up. I never agreed that MJ was that much better than those other players and I don't think Bron is that much better than them either. Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Magic KAJ. Bird and Bron are all time Greats. You can't really say one is better than the other, they just played different roles. It's easy to tear down Bird and Magic because they weren't the athlete's the others were. But they had basketball IQ"s that transcended the others so that made up for their lack of athletic ability.

[MadDog]

Mj admitted he couldn't even handle today's media environment. Of course you'll point to someone like Nick Wright without mentioning the fact he often gets laughed at by fellow cast members who seem to be MJ stans. How about Skip Bayless? No mention of him? The argument is almost pointless and cancels itself out.

"Jordan's game did the talking" :oldlol::facepalm

Dude get ****in' real. He was the media and NBA darling. He was a walking PR machine. Video after video. Oprah interview after Oprah interview. But it's no good when Nick Wright gets on air and talks about LeBron or LeBron tweets something? :lol

Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

Were you even alive to see MJ play?

I don't even dislike MJ but it's hard not to call out all the absolute nonsense that's been spewed into the air over the past 3 decades. Especially by "casuals" like so many MJ stans are.

I'm also a better person than you.

I "mentioned" them because your dumb ass thinks only Jordan benefited from the media. Why pretend that LeBron doesn't either - in more ways than one and on different platforms. There were no morning talk shows gaslighting Jordan like there are now with Shannon Sharpe, Wright and Cowerd pumping up LeBron. Every morning these guys throw "GOAT" bait and sheeple like you eat it up. :confusedshrug: You willingly accept it yet continue to cry about "unfair" Jordan coverage.


I'm also a better person than you.

You're literally an alt account and named yourself "Satan". We'd probably need a forklift just to get you outta your basement. :oldlol:

[light]

Here's why MJ was overrated:

Scottie Pippen won 6 titles as the Bulls offensive organizer.
Scottie Pippen won 6 titles as the Bulls defensive quarterback.
Scottie Pippen won 6 titles as the Bulls vocal leader.

LeBron James won 4 titles as his team's offensive organizer.
LeBron James won 4 titles as his team's defensive quarterback.
LeBron James won 4 titles as his team's vocal leader.

Michael Jordan won 0 titles as the Bulls offensive organizer.
Michael Jordan won 0 titles as the Bulls defensive quarterback.
Michael Jordan won 0 titles as the Bulls vocal leader.

[SATAN]

I "mentioned" them because your dumb ass thinks only Jordan benefited from the media. Why pretend that LeBron doesn't either - in more ways than one and on different platforms. There were no morning talk shows gaslighting Jordan like there are now with Shannon Sharpe, Wright and Cowerd pumping up LeBron. Every morning these guys throw "GOAT" bait and sheeple like you eat it up. :confusedshrug: You willingly accept it yet continue to cry about "unfair" Jordan coverage.


You're literally an alt account and named yourself "Satan". We'd probably need a forklift just to get you outta your basement. :oldlol:

Where did I say only MJ benefited from the media? Where did I mention anything about fairness? You're assumptions and hypocrisy make this too easy.

[r0drig0lac]

6>4

[And1AllDay]

Here's why MJ was overrated:

Scottie Pippen won 6 titles as the Bulls offensive organizer.
Scottie Pippen won 6 titles as the Bulls defensive quarterback.
Scottie Pippen won 6 titles as the Bulls vocal leader.

LeBron James won 4 titles as his team's offensive organizer.
LeBron James won 4 titles as his team's defensive quarterback.
LeBron James won 4 titles as his team's vocal leader.

Michael Jordan won 0 titles as the Bulls offensive organizer.
Michael Jordan won 0 titles as the Bulls defensive quarterback.
Michael Jordan won 0 titles as the Bulls vocal leader.

issa

:dancin

big

:djparty

wrap

:hammertime::hammertime:

[Hey Yo]

MJ bullying his string bean nemesis ...... :roll::roll::roll:




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/En93SUiWEAAMNVb?format=jpg&name=900x900

[And1AllDay]

MJ bullying his string bean nemesis ...... :roll::roll::roll:




https://i.postimg.cc/NG4vrnKJ/circa-1990s-mike-bullies-125-granny-colorized.jpg


mike bullies 135 lb granny (1990s, colorized)

https://i.postimg.cc/NG4vrnKJ/circa-1990s-mike-bullies-125-granny-colorized.jpg

[HoopsNY]

What's ratings or MJ's return got to do with anything? It is funny you mention that actually because a friend who is a citified casual and LeBron hater sent me a message one day about the low ratings in the bubble. He used that as evidence of MJ being the goat. You guys honestly wonder why you're being clowned so much these days when you've lowered the bar to viewership ratings during a pandemic and wide spread social upheaval, when almost all sports ratings are down... as opposed to the actual game of basketball?? :oldlol::facepalm

Of course you wouldn't know. The league needed MJ. After 1998, ratings had plummeted and there was talk of him rejoining the Wizards not only to "help the Wizards organization," but also to bolster TV ratings that had fallen six feet deep. I didn't mention that just for any reason.


Can Michael Jordan's return to the NBA fuel further fan interest, help the networks generate higher ratings, attract more advertising and boost television rights fee negotiations, all in the face of an economic decline and an impending war? That's what NBA and television executives alike are asking themselves today.

With Michael Jordan back on the basketball court, the NBA's TV ratings are expected to rise. Overall interest in the NBA has declined since Jordan last took the court in 1998. Average league attendance has slipped and its regular-season television ratings have dropped steadily, from 6.3 million viewers per game in Jordan's last season to four million viewers last season.

"Certainly the NBA, like all other major sports, has to deal with dilution and viewer fragmentation," said Neal Pilson, former president of CBS Sports and a TV consultant. "But the decline was so strong the year after he retired and our research indicates that a substantial number of people (watch NBA games only to see Jordan), much in the way that golf gets a Tiger Woods audience that does not otherwise watch the sport when he's not playing."

http://assets.espn.go.com/nba/s/2001/0923/1254606.html

Re-read my original comment. I mentioned tv ratings over the last ten years. That's not only including the bubble. Viewership took a significant hit after 1998. And the ratings have declined over the last five years, especially, just looking at the NBA finals. Have a look yourself if you don't believe me.

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/

Look at the average viewers from 1998, ranging between 27-36 million per game. Game 6 of the 1998 finals was the highest of all time. Compare that to the last 5 seasons.

2016: 19-31 million
2017: 18-25 million
2018: 16-18 million
2019: 13-19 million
2020: 6-9 million

Go look at 2010-15, it declined from there as well. Fact remains is that the league has seen a steady decline. And it certainly doesn't compare to the league between 1991-98, either.

This isn't all on LeBron, but the "player empowerment" movement started well but shifted to team hopping, which ultimately took away from building championship caliber teams through coaches and systems. That, coupled with relaxed rule changes, gave way to Steph Curry basketball, which is what we see now - teams run up and down the court trading threes.

[trada7029]

.
PLAYOFF PPG


1988 McHale.... 25.4
1988 Bird.......... 24.5

2011 Wade...... 24.5
2011 Lebron.... 23.7

2020 Davis.'..... 27.8
2020 Lebron.... 27.7

2016 Kyrie.'...... 25.8
2016 Lebron.... 26.2

1987 Worthy.... 23.6
1987 Magic...'.. 21.1


^^^ Lebron, Magic and everyone in history are "pippens" because they needed a "jordan" (someone that could outscore them).. Jordan is the only guy that just needed a pippen - someone that averaged 10-30 less in every series (with less career apg).. Jordan infact popularized the idea of "carry-jobs" when he first came on the scene - it was his claim to fame and what differentiated him from bird/magic/isiah (who had equal-scoring teammates).

And equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only Jordan faced "1-man team" coverage for his entire career (thus giving ultimate integrity to his #1 ranked PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, and also VORP seasons).

Kenny Smith talks about mj being the only 1-man show here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s


Finally, Lebron was a 1-trick pony before the "decision", with only 1 Finals run like Iverson, Dwight, and Kidd... Then Wade, AD, and Kyrie elevated him to champion - so this idea that lebron brings guys titles and therefore "makes guys better" is false - teaming up doesn't equal "making guys better" - it's just stacking the deck and talent-based winning.... virtually none of his primary teammates improved statistically alongside him because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning aka team-hopping)..

[HoopsNY]

.
PLAYOFF PPG


1988 McHale.... 25.4
1988 Bird.......... 24.5

2011 Wade...... 24.5
2011 Lebron.... 23.7

2020 Davis.'..... 27.8
2020 Lebron.... 27.7

2016 Kyrie.'...... 25.8
2016 Lebron.... 26.2

1987 Worthy.... 23.6
1987 Magic...'.. 21.1


^^^ Lebron, Magic and everyone in history are "pippens" because they needed a "jordan" (someone that could outscore them).. Jordan is the only guy that just needed a pippen - someone that averaged 10-30 less in every series (with less career apg).. Jordan infact popularized the idea of "carry-jobs" when he first came on the scene - it was his claim to fame and what differentiated him from bird/magic/isiah (who had equal-scoring teammates).

And equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only Jordan faced "1-man team" coverage for his entire career (thus giving ultimate integrity to his #1 ranked PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, and also VORP seasons).

Kenny Smith talks about mj being the only 1-man show here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s


Finally, Lebron was a 1-trick pony before the "decision", with only 1 Finals run like Iverson, Dwight, and Kidd... Then Wade, AD, and Kyrie elevated him to champion - so this idea that lebron brings guys titles and therefore "makes guys better" is false - teaming up doesn't equal "making guys better" - it's just stacking the deck and talent-based winning.... virtually none of his primary teammates improved statistically alongside him because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning aka team-hopping)..

Dang, did you get banned again?

[trada7029]

PLAYOFF PPG


1988 McHale.... 25.4
1988 Bird.......... 24.5

2011 Wade...... 24.5
2011 Lebron.... 23.7

2020 Davis.'..... 27.8
2020 Lebron.... 27.7

2016 Kyrie.'...... 25.8
2016 Lebron.... 26.2

1987 Worthy.... 23.6
1987 Magic...'.. 21.1





^^^ So Lebron, Magic and everyone in history are "pippens" because they needed a "jordan" (someone that could outscore them)..

Jordan is the only guy that just needed a pippen - someone that averaged 10-30 less in every series (with less career apg).. Jordan infact popularized the idea of "carry-jobs" when he first came on the scene - it was his claim to fame and what differentiated him from bird/magic/isiah (who had equal-scoring teammates).

And equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only Jordan faced "1-man team" coverage for his entire career (thus giving ultimate integrity to his #1 ranked PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, and also VORP seasons).

Kenny Smith talks about mj being the only 1-man show here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s

[sdot_thadon]

Of course you wouldn't know. The league needed MJ. After 1998, ratings had plummeted and there was talk of him rejoining the Wizards not only to "help the Wizards organization," but also to bolster TV ratings that had fallen six feet deep. I didn't mention that just for any reason.



http://assets.espn.go.com/nba/s/2001/0923/1254606.html

Re-read my original comment. I mentioned tv ratings over the last ten years. That's not only including the bubble. Viewership took a significant hit after 1998. And the ratings have declined over the last five years, especially, just looking at the NBA finals. Have a look yourself if you don't believe me.

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/

Look at the average viewers from 1998, ranging between 27-36 million per game. Game 6 of the 1998 finals was the highest of all time. Compare that to the last 5 seasons.

2016: 19-31 million
2017: 18-25 million
2018: 16-18 million
2019: 13-19 million
2020: 6-9 million

Go look at 2010-15, it declined from there as well. Fact remains is that the league has seen a steady decline. And it certainly doesn't compare to the league between 1991-98, either.

This isn't all on LeBron, but the "player empowerment" movement started well but shifted to team hopping, which ultimately took away from building championship caliber teams through coaches and systems. That, coupled with relaxed rule changes, gave way to Steph Curry basketball, which is what we see now - teams run up and down the court trading threes.

How about the more realistic view point of maybe we got more shit to do these days than we had in the 90s. We also have lot more possible ways to watch games now in the streaming, Internet era. The style of play was not THAT much more exciting in the 90s brother. The modern world isn't as easily entertained apparently.

[HoopsNY]

How about the more realistic view point of maybe we got more shit to do these days than we had in the 90s. We also have lot more possible ways to watch games now in the streaming, Internet era. The style of play was not THAT much more exciting in the 90s brother. The modern world isn't as easily entertained apparently.

Yea, that would make sense IF the games were televised on cable TV. They're not. The NBA finals is televised on national TV, so everyone has access to it. Furthermore, the trend occurred immediately after 1998, and the trend has remained between 2010-14 and 2015-20.

The problem with LeBron stans is that facts and the analysis of those facts don't matter. This is a perfect example. And I didn't even factor in population growth. The population of the U.S. was 275 million in 1998, the population is now 330 million.

[SATAN]

The MJ casuals stopped watching basketball. Not a bad thing.

[HoopsNY]

The MJ casuals stopped watching basketball. Not a bad thing.

Which is why the ratings have dropped the last 10 years, too, right? :lol

[Vino24]

Great thread! This is proof that people nowadays look a little deeper than the surface to judge a player. Today’s fans are not casuals consumed by hype

[Baller789]

Great thread! This is proof that people nowadays look a little deeper than the surface to judge a player. Today’s fans are not casuals consumed by hype

Sure, thats why you guys watch Skip, Shannon and Stephen.:roll:

[dankok8]

I addressed this on another thread but W-L records with and without a player must consider the baseline quality of the team. For example a horrible 15-win team can realistically improve to an above average 45-win team but a 50-win team may only improve to a 65-win team with the same player being added. Another metric worth measuring is point differential more preferably SRS which corrects for strength of competition. SRS shows a stronger correlation with team quality than W-L record does.

1991-1998 Bulls without MJ were on average a ~50 win team with +3 SRS and a 2nd round playoff exit.
1991-1998 Bulls with MJ were on average a ~65 win team with a +8 SRS and a virtual championship lock winning 6 of 7 titles.

That's pretty great impact IMO. Bulls without Jordan were like my current Raptors and the Bulls with Jordan were like the Warriors with KD. You can't expect one player to lift a team more than that.

[Vino24]

I addressed this on another thread but W-L records with and without a player must consider the baseline quality of the team. For example a horrible 15-win team can realistically improve to an above average 45-win team but a 50-win team may only improve to a 65-win team with the same player being added. Another metric worth measuring is point differential more preferably SRS which corrects for strength of competition. SRS shows a stronger correlation with team quality than W-L record does.

1991-1998 Bulls without MJ were on average a ~50 win team with +3 SRS and a 2nd round playoff exit.
1991-1998 Bulls with MJ were on average a ~65 win team with a +8 SRS and a virtual championship lock winning 6 of 7 titles.

That's pretty great impact IMO. Bulls without Jordan were like my current Raptors and the Bulls with Jordan were like the Warriors with KD. You can't expect one player to lift a team more than that.
MJ’s team still managed 50+ wins without him

[Baller789]

MJ’s team still managed 50+ wins without him

That doesn't mean much. Could have been a one year flop.

[HoopsNY]

Why are people acting like peak Pippen in 1994 and someone like Wade in 2015 are the same players? By 2015, Wade was a shell of his former self.

Chicago had peak Pippen, peak Grant, and peak Armstrong. Pippen played injured in 1993, so it comes as no surprise that Chicago "only" won 57 games.

Wade went from averaging 19/5/5 to 22/4/5, but his FG% dropped from 55% to 47%. He also wasn't the same defensive player as he was in previous years. Wade wasn't the same player in 2015 as he was in 2011 or even 2012. If you put peak Pippen on that team, that team also makes the playoffs.

Furthermore, Wade and Bosh were both dealing with a plethora of injuries and team chemistry was hurt, added to the fact that they added new guys to the roster while losing important pieces like LeBron, Battier, and Ray Allen. This wasn't the same team at all.

The proof is in the pudding. If the only reason for Miami missing the playoffs the next season was due to the leaving of LeBron (and not other factors like injuries and team chemistry), why did Miami win 48 games and advance to the 2nd round in 2016?

[kawhileonard2]

He is a tier above the rest.

I can shoot gaping holes in the careers of every NBA players argument as to why they should be considered the GOAT. Especially when applying context.

The only argument one can give against MJ is that he was "1-9" in his early playoff goings. But again, context is key. Those playoff losses came at the hands of 2 of the best teams in the history of the in the 80s Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons. The other coming against the Milwaukee Bucks. A team that had the 3rd best record in the 80s after the Showtime Lakers and the 80s Celtics.

In 15 years, MJ led teams NEVER lost as the favorite. No other player can boast such a claim. Not Magic, not Bryant, not James, not Jabaar, not Shaq, not Duncan, not Bird.

This. Also never won bronze medal for America nor lost with HCA to Dwight Howard.

[And1AllDay]

22 year old LeBron made the Finals

22 year old Jordan lost in the 1st round

yikes


we win again

:hammertime::hammertime:

[And1AllDay]

35 year old jordan never lost in the finals.. ever

yeah he did worse, he lost even earlier :oldlol:

real winners lose early -Pakt Ass

:roll:

[And1AllDay]

Here's why MJ was overrated:

Scottie Pippen won 6 titles as the Bulls offensive organizer.
Scottie Pippen won 6 titles as the Bulls defensive quarterback.
Scottie Pippen won 6 titles as the Bulls vocal leader.

LeBron James won 4 titles as his team's offensive organizer.
LeBron James won 4 titles as his team's defensive quarterback.
LeBron James won 4 titles as his team's vocal leader.

Michael Jordan won 0 titles as the Bulls offensive organizer.
Michael Jordan won 0 titles as the Bulls defensive quarterback.
Michael Jordan won 0 titles as the Bulls vocal leader.

wow is this the dagger

[kawhileonard2]

Undefeated with HCA, only won gold medal. Name me another top 10 player all time like that?

[kawhileonard2]

yeah he did worse, he lost even earlier :oldlol:

real winners lose early -Pakt Ass

:roll:

He won league, finals mvp, all nba 1st team and defensive first team and scoring title. Who else did that?