Is there any PG in history you'd take over 35 yrs old, 2020 Lebron?

[iamgine]

Since 35 years old Lebron switched to full time point guard last season, it begs the question.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not sure a distinction even needs making between that and usual Lebron. Rondo played 25 minutes a game in the playoffs much of it with Lebron. We calling Rondo a shooting guard during that time or just saying they had two ball handlers and ignoring the distinction?

People play position less ball a lot now. Lebron can comfortably play 4 positions now and depending on the matchup....all 5 without breaking a sweat. Im not sure its accurate to call him a full time anything. I certainty wouldnt call Rondo a part time shooting guard....and if there are two full time points in the game....isnt one of them....not? Or at least arent we past the need to label them?


That said....yes.

I still wouldnt take Lebron over Magic for all teams but thats never gonna be explainable to a bunch of people here who are mostly born between like 1990 and 2000 so there isnt much to talk about. A bunch of 23 year olds talking to me about Magic Johnsons lack of this or that isnt worth my morning. Not that im doing anything noteworthy. But this shitty Kcup coffee is still a better use of my time than the 3 or so trolls spread over 11 accounts at a time.

[light]

Since 35 years old Lebron switched to full time point guard last season, it begs the question.

You'd have to take LeBron.

How could you justify taking any other PG? The others have too many weaknesses.

Magic could've been in the conversation if he was a better scorer, a better shooter and a better defender.

[jayfan]

Since 35 years old Lebron switched to full time point guard last season, it begs the question.


Huh? LeBron has played PG his entire career. Dude is lost playing off the ball.



.

[MadDog]

Prime Magic
Stephen Curry

If you're referring to JUST pointguard ability or skill, add Paul/Nash/Kidd/Stockton/Payton to the mix

[bizil]

Huh? LeBron has played PG his entire career. Dude is lost playing off the ball.



.

That's INCORRECT! For most of Bron's career, he functioned as a point forward. Like Pip and G Hill back in the day. Bron was on the court MOST OF THE TIME with a PG and a SG. BUT since Bron was such a great passer AND pass first, he ran the offensive from the SF spot. Thus making him a point forward.

In Bron's rookie year , his primary position was PG at first! Because Ricky Davis was an SG. And D Miles was an SF. Those are the perimeter players who started with him. So OBVIOUSLY Bron was the PG.

With the Lakers, PG was his primary position. Because guys like Avery Bradley and KCP started at the SG. And Danny Green a swingman started at SF. So Bron FOR SURE was the PG. Sure he floated to other positions throughout the game, but he started at PG. There's a DIFFERENCE between PG and point forward. You can be the primary facilitator for your team in either spot. Main difference is Bron can play OFF THE BALL MORE as the point forward. Because there's a PG on the floor with him who can run the sets at times. And free him up more to focus on scoring.

[Hey Yo]

Prime Magic
Stephen Curry

If you're referring to JUST pointguard ability or skill, add Paul/Nash/Kidd/Stockton/Payton to the mix
Curry...... a PG?? :oldlol:

Doesn't surprise me you think that.

[bizil]

You gotta take Bron in my opinion. You are getting damn near the same level of passing as Magic. BUT u get better scoring, much better defense, every bit the triple double threat, a freak athlete, and the physique of Karl Malone in that package. The TRUMP Bron has always had in his back pocket was being able to slide to the PG later in his career if he chose to. With a stud like Davis, Bron DOESN'T have to be the leading scorer on the his team. From there with the floor generalship duties SOLELY ON HIM more often, it ENABLES him to focus on what he does best. Passing the rock!

When he was the point forward, he had another PG on the court with him. So Bron WOULDN'T focus quite as much on getting dimes (even though he was getting awesome dime numbers). There's a reason why his assist numbers JUMPED once he moved to the PG. And he ended up leading the league in dimes. It's sort of like Magic once Norm Nixon was gone and Magic was the PG FLAT OUT! Magic started leading the league in assists and getting 11-12 APG all the time.

[MadDog]

Curry...... a PG?? :oldlol:

Doesn't surprise me you think that.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1813378-how-stephen-curry-is-re-defining-the-point-guard-position-entering-2013-14
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank2_2016/nbarank-2-golden-state-warriors-point-guard-stephen-curry
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html

Everyone refers to Curry as a PG. :confusedshrug: You can play pretend in the corner over there.

[HoopsNY]

You gotta take Bron in my opinion. You are getting damn near the same level of passing as Magic. BUT u get better scoring, much better defense, every bit the triple double threat, a freak athlete, and the physique of Karl Malone in that package. The TRUMP Bron has always had in his back pocket was being able to slide to the PG later in his career if he chose to. With a stud like Davis, Bron DOESN'T have to be the leading scorer on the his team. From there with the floor generalship duties SOLELY ON HIM more often, it ENABLES him to focus on what he does best. Passing the rock!

When he was the point forward, he had another PG on the court with him. So Bron WOULDN'T focus quite as much on getting dimes (even though he was getting awesome dime numbers). There's a reason why his assist numbers JUMPED once he moved to the PG. And he ended up leading the league in dimes. It's sort of like Magic once Norm Nixon was gone and Magic was the PG FLAT OUT! Magic started leading the league in assists and getting 11-12 APG all the time.

Same rhetoric, all the time. Bran stans will try to re-write history with their exaggerated claims. "Damn near Magic passing ability!"

So we've heard greatest scorer, greatest defender, greatest passer, greatest rebounder, greatest coach, greatest GM...next he'll be greatest shooter, somehow.

[bizil]

Same rhetoric, all the time. Bran stans will try to re-write history with their exaggerated claims. "Damn near Magic passing ability!"

So we've heard greatest scorer, greatest defender, greatest passer, greatest rebounder, greatest coach, greatest GM...next he'll be greatest shooter, somehow.

Not a Bron stan at all! Magic is a better passer BUT I think Bron is close to that level of passing. The Bron stans ARE THE ONES who say Bron is a better passer than Magic! So go find them jabroni!! T

[jayfan]

That's INCORRECT! For most of Bron's career, he functioned as a point forward. Like Pip and G Hill back in the day. Bron was on the court MOST OF THE TIME with a PG and a SG. BUT since Bron was such a great passer AND pass first, he ran the offensive from the SF spot. Thus making him a point forward.

In Bron's rookie year , his primary position was PG at first! Because Ricky Davis was an SG. And D Miles was an SF. Those are the perimeter players who started with him. So OBVIOUSLY Bron was the PG.

With the Lakers, PG was his primary position. Because guys like Avery Bradley and KCP started at the SG. And Danny Green a swingman started at SF. So Bron FOR SURE was the PG. Sure he floated to other positions throughout the game, but he started at PG. There's a DIFFERENCE between PG and point forward. You can be the primary facilitator for your team in either spot. Main difference is Bron can play OFF THE BALL MORE as the point forward. Because there's a PG on the floor with him who can run the sets at times. And free him up more to focus on scoring.

I'll clarify for you. Take away the words 'guard' and 'forward.' They don't matter. 'Point' is the word that matters. And Lebron has run the point his entire career.

I understand that his size allows other 'guards' who may be able to handle the ball to be on the court with him, but Lebron has always run the point. This playoffs, when on the floor with Rondo, was the first time I've seen Lebron willingly defer point duties.

[dankok8]

I still wouldnt take Lebron over Magic for all teams but thats never gonna be explainable to a bunch of people here who are mostly born between like 1990 and 2000 so there isnt much to talk about. A bunch of 23 year olds talking to me about Magic Johnsons lack of this or that isnt worth my morning. Not that im doing anything noteworthy. But this shitty Kcup coffee is still a better use of my time than the 3 or so trolls spread over 11 accounts at a time.

My thoughts exactly.

[Dbrog]

My thoughts exactly.

Yup. It's funny how dudes like "Hey Yo" talk about curry not being a PG but failing to realize the main thing that makes a PG is their ability to control tempo and ball movement. Hell, Rondo did this better than Bron in these playoffs and yet topics like these still get created. I think people just don't understand the concept between ball handler and PG. Walt Frazier rollin over right now with dudes saying assists determine who's the "leader" of the offense :lol

[HoopsNY]

Not a Bron stan at all! Magic is a better passer BUT I think Bron is close to that level of passing. The Bron stans ARE THE ONES who say Bron is a better passer than Magic! So go find them jabroni!! T

My sincerest apologies, but even claiming that LeBron is close is insulting to Magic. This just isn't true. You can't tell me system offenses that were piloted by guys like Magic and today's stand around and launch threes to get an assist, or an open fast break without transition defense is the equivalent of what we saw with the Showtime Lakers.

Running set-plays and splitting defenses is an area that Magic excelled in. This doesn't take away LeBron's ability to pass the ball, but was Grant Hill on the level of John Stockton? And these two played in the same era.

You can be a great playmaker, it doesn't make you an elite passer. And stocking up assists in 2020 is not the same as what we saw from Magic at all.

[PP34Deuce]

I'd say 2020 was the first time I saw Lebron as a pure point guard. He consistently was running the team and not just doing "Lebron Ball"

That said, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd, Stockton, prime CP3 and prime Rondo had lower A/TO as pure PG's.

To even be around the level of those guys at point guard is an accomplishment in itself.

[dankok8]

Passing is somewhat subjective but the best passer I've ever watched is Magic. Assists are not always a good indicator of passing ability because they are directly dependent on how much a player handles the ball and how many high risk plays they make. Turnovers also need to be looked at as well as value added by passing including hockey assists. It's the most difficult skill in basketball to analyze accurately.

[bizil]

I'd say 2020 was the first time I saw Lebron as a pure point guard. He consistently was running the team and not just doing "Lebron Ball"

That said, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd, Stockton, prime CP3 and prime Rondo had lower A/TO as pure PG's.

To even be around the level of those guys at point guard is an accomplishment in itself.

Good points! This is the FIRST SEASON where Bron's primary position was PG for the MAJORITY of a season. In his rookie year, he started the season as a PG. BUT that didn't last the entire season. And the REASON I would take 35 year old Bron over any PG ever IS because he's SIMPLY a better player than all the other PG's ever! Even at 35 years of age!

As a pure FLOOR GENERAL, I would take the guys u named over Bron. But Bron is still a great pass first floor general in his own right. FROM THERE the TOTALITY of the other aspects of his game give him the edge. Being the BEST FLOOR GENERAL doesn't always make you the best PG. It's about your TOTAL GAME that makes you the best. If the question was who is the BEST FLOOR GENERAL, then my answer would be different. I would choose Magic hands down!

[Vino24]

Magic is basically a slightly worse LeBron.

[Bronbron23]

Since 35 years old Lebron switched to full time point guard last season, it begs the question.

Magic

[Baller789]

Hilarious to say that Lebron is on the same level as Magic playmaking wise. He's a clear tier below.

[Manny98]

What is Magic better than 35 year old LeBron at?

Passing - they are about equal
Scoring - LeBron easily
Defense - LeBron

Curry at least has a massive edge in shooting ability over LeBron so depending on the team composition I would pick him


For example on the current Philadelphia 76ers I would rather have Curry alongside Embiid and Simmons than LeBron

So to answer the OP I would say Curry & maybe CP3

I don't think Magic would translate well in today's NBA

[Vino24]

https://youtu.be/YWcobWashmE

No look between the legs bounce assist. Sorry but magic isn’t better than that

[HALLandOATES]

35 yr old Lebron does everything better than Prime Magic... Even floor general which you could say 1a 1b if you wanted...but let’s be real Lebron is the man

[bizil]

Here's the thing about Bron, Big O, and now Luka. They are large, pass first, triple double machine PG's who ALSO can average 26-30 PPG IN A SEASON! Magic's best scoring season was 23.9 PPG. EVEN THOUGH Magic had the ability AND alpha dog cred to average more than that, he looked to pass first and hell pass second a lot of the time. ESPECIALLY when you consider the talent he played with.

Bron puts MORE OF A PREMIUM on dominating games scoring than Magic. So much of one he's third all time in scoring the rock. ALTHOUGH Bron is still a pass first player himself. It's the Wayne Gretzky mentality brought to the NBA! Even though Wayne is #1 all time in goals, they say his best attribute was the assists gig.

So when it comes to Magic being a better floor general, a reason for that is BECAUSE he looks to dominate PASSING MORE than LeBron. While Bron looks to DOMINATE scoring more than Magic. Even though BOTH are pass first players who are alpha dog scorers. Just a difference in their approach to it. There's a bigger gap in scoring (edge to Bron) than passing (edge to Magic). So I'm cool with those who think Magic is a better floor general. Hell I think so TOO! But for those that think there's A HUGE GAP between the two floor general wise, you are smoking crack!

[Overdrive]

https://youtu.be/YWcobWashmE

No look between the legs bounce assist. Sorry but magic isn’t better than that

Magic wouldn't have travelled after the rebound. Bush league refereeing.

[Smoke117]

Sure. Magic. Chris Paul pre knee injury.

[LoneyROY7]

Sure. Magic. Chris Paul pre knee injury.

LeBron just averaged 30/12/8.5 in the Finals...

[Smoke117]

LeBron just averaged 30/12/8.5 in the Finals...

Jamal Murray had two 50 point games in one series. Bubble, inflated era. Not impressed.

[LoneyROY7]

Jamal Murray had two 50 point games in one series. Bubble, inflated era. Not impressed.

:facepalm

[light]

Sure. Magic. Chris Paul pre knee injury.

No and no.

There is no justification for taking Chris Paul over LeBron at point guard. You give up so much size, strength, athleticism, versatility, rebounding, scoring ability and winning ability if you go with Paul instead of LeBron. Meanwhile LeBron is as good as Chris Paul or better than Chris Paul at everything required of a PG. So your idea just doesn't make sense.

OP is on to something. There isn't any point guard that's as good as LeBron James at point guard.

Magic? Couldn't defend. Couldn't shoot. Not very athletic. And he was considered the best point guard in history even with those flaws. It may be time to start thinking of LeBron James as the new best point guard in history.

[Smoke117]

:facepalm

Give Paul Anthony Davis and 08 and 09 Hornets b2b. :pimp:

[LoneyROY7]

Give Paul Anthony Davis and 08 and 09 Hornets b2b. :pimp:

Chris Paul was a beast in his prime. He still wasn't LeBron, dawg.

[Pointguard]

If you are talking about floor general. Jason Kidd in 2001 took over a last place team that didn't have a player in the top ten in any category. Nobody even scoring 15ppg or 8 rebounds per game and brought that team to the championship series the next two years. For all the stat geeks, Kidd replaced a 24 and 8 assist PG.

It was the East but Shaq had a loaded Orlando team with Penny, Grant, Nick Andersen, Dennis Scott, shortly before that and he was getting swept. No other player could go to that Nets team and do what Kidd did with that team. Not Shaq, not Kobe, not Lebron. Kidd couldn't shoot, produce any type of big stat and repeated the feat the next year. He controlled the game by being a great floor general. There is so much more to meet the eye at the PG position. Sure it was only two years but we all can agree Kidd could definitely do more with having very little. And Kidd did it with superior judgement on when to run, when not to run and leadership. If you are talking point guard you can't play the numbers game. PG position is where all the adjustments happen and Lebron is good at it but not great. He wasn't a chess player most of the time.

Magic had superior judgement and control down to the point where his teammates were always aware and willing to run with Magic. Lebron could be argued a better player due to his all around game - Im ok with that but he wasn't a better point guard.

[Smoke117]

If you are talking about floor general. Jason Kidd in 2001 took over a last place team that didn't have a player in the top ten in any category. Nobody even scoring 15ppg or 8 rebounds per game and brought that team to the championship series the next two years. For all the stat geeks, Kidd replaced a 24 and 8 assist PG.

It was the East but Shaq had a loaded Orlando team with Penny, Grant, Nick Andersen, Dennis Scott, shortly before that and he was getting swept. No other player could go to that Nets team and do what Kidd did with that team. Not Shaq, not Kobe, not Lebron. Kidd couldn't shoot, produce any type of big stat and repeated the feat the next year. He controlled the game by being a great floor general. There is so much more to meet the eye at the PG position. Sure it was only two years but we all can agree Kidd could definitely do more with having very little. And Kidd did it with superior judgement on when to run, when not to run and leadership. If you are talking point guard you can't play the numbers game. PG position is where all the adjustments happen and Lebron is good at it but not great. He wasn't a chess player most of the time.

Magic had superior judgement and control down to the point where his teammates were always aware and willing to run with Magic. Lebron could be argued a better player due to his all around game - Im ok with that but he wasn't a better point guard.

You're thinking of the 2002 season and the Nets were hammered to hell in 2001 the previous season. It's not fair to just say they added Kidd and he turned it all around. Kerry Kittles missed the entire 2001 season and Van Horn only played 49 games. They played 82 and 81 games in 2002.

[Carbine]

The statements regarding Magic in this thread is disgusting. He's before my time so I don't even have the attachment that someone born in the 70s would have for him. But holy shit some of these things being said...... All you can do is SMH

If you put Magic on the floor with any version of LeBron, forget about 35 year old but any version he's not just a better player than Magic in a series. The difference wouldn't be noticeable.

Magic is the best total offensive player ever IMO.

[Axe]

Chris Paul was a beast in his prime. He still wasn't LeBron, dawg.
Ofc not. Cp3 is only 1.85m tall.

[Smoke117]

LeBron has enjoyed a cupcake league for virtually his entire career. He'd have retired at around 32 if he had to play with the physicality of the 80s and 90s.

[dankok8]

Magic? Couldn't defend. Couldn't shoot. Not very athletic. And he was considered the best point guard in history even with those flaws. It may be time to start thinking of LeBron James as the new best point guard in history.

Peak Magic actually had similar limitations to current Lebron on defense... He played smart defense but just got beat off the dribble often by smaller quicker guards which is happening to Lebron a lot as well. On an island against quicker guys both of them are very vulnerable. Lebron is the better defender but the current version of Lebron isn't that impactful to say that breaks the tie between him and say a 27-year old Magic.

Couldn't shoot? Magic was a better pure jumpshooter than Lebron. He was very good from midrange and simply didn't use a 3pt shot. He was also significantly better from the charity stripe.

I think current Lebron is probably very similar in overall playing level to peak Magic circa 1987... which is a huge compliment! Except to rabid stans of course. Magic is a much better passer, Lebron a significantly better scorer and defender. Magic had more motor to play big minutes including in the regular season.

I'd lean towards Magic on very talented teams that need playmaking... say this past year's Clippers. Or on other teams that have ball dominant players. Magic got his stats on less usage and would mesh better with the likes of Harden for instance. Today's fans simply don't understand how good Magic was in terms of controlling the pace and decision-making. At his peak he averaged fewer turnovers than Lebron with many more assists.

I can see Curry getting a nod on some teams as well. Oscar I just am not familiar enough with. Haven't seen enough footage of him to make an accurate assessment of his abilities. I feel that Westbrook averaging a triple double for three straight years really hurt Big O's historical case in general.

[Axe]

LeBron has enjoyed a cupcake league for virtually his entire career. He'd have retired at around 32 if he had to play with the physicality of the 80s and 90s.
If the league were actually cupcake, he could probably have more than four rings rn.

[Pointguard]

You're thinking of the 2002 season and the Nets were hammered to hell in 2001 the previous season. It's not fair to just say they added Kidd and he turned it all around. Kerry Kittles missed the entire 2001 season and Van Horn only played 49 games. They played 82 and 81 games in 2002.

LOL, yes those power houses Kittles and Horn. The Nets won 31 games in '00 and 26 in '01. Kidd brought them to 52 games. They got rid of Van Horn the next year and got better when they diminished Kittles role. Why did you bring them up?

[And1AllDay]

knota
fuggin
chance

[And1AllDay]

LeBron just averaged 30/12/8.5 in the Finals...

:cheers:

[LeCola]

This topic is so funny. Magic is better than Lebron, how could 35 years old Lebron could be better than prime Magic? :lol

My answer is:

Magic
Isiah
Curry
West
O. Robertson
CP3

Also I think;
Kidd
Nash
Stockton
Westbrook
Harden (as playing PG)
.
.
.
etc....

There are lots of PG's in history that 2020 Lakers would still win title if you replaced with Lebron. Davis was better than all players they played against in 2020 playoffs.

[8Ball]

Peak Magic actually had similar limitations to current Lebron on defense... He played smart defense but just got beat off the dribble often by smaller quicker guards which is happening to Lebron a lot as well. On an island against quicker guys both of them are very vulnerable. Lebron is the better defender but the current version of Lebron isn't that impactful to say that breaks the tie between him and say a 27-year old Magic.

Couldn't shoot? Magic was a better pure jumpshooter than Lebron. He was very good from midrange and simply didn't use a 3pt shot. He was also significantly better from the charity stripe.

I think current Lebron is probably very similar in overall playing level to peak Magic circa 1987... which is a huge compliment! Except to rabid stans of course. Magic is a much better passer, Lebron a significantly better scorer and defender. Magic had more motor to play big minutes including in the regular season.

I'd lean towards Magic on very talented teams that need playmaking... say this past year's Clippers. Or on other teams that have ball dominant players. Magic got his stats on less usage and would mesh better with the likes of Harden for instance. Today's fans simply don't understand how good Magic was in terms of controlling the pace and decision-making. At his peak he averaged fewer turnovers than Lebron with many more assists.

I can see Curry getting a nod on some teams as well. Oscar I just am not familiar enough with. Haven't seen enough footage of him to make an accurate assessment of his abilities. I feel that Westbrook averaging a triple double for three straight years really hurt Big O's historical case in general.

LeBron guarded took on Murray at the end of game 4 and Jimmy Butler in game 6.

What liability on defense.

You don't even watch the games. Just spew nonsense.

[dankok8]

LeBron guarded took on Murray at the end of game 4 and Jimmy Butler in game 6.

What liability on defense.

You don't even watch the games. Just spew nonsense.

Butler was gassed in Game 6.. he just sucked against everyone.

He toyed with Lebron in the first five games basically took him off the dribble at will and Lebron was late to contest almost every J. The only guy who actually stopped him legit slowed him down was AD. He discouraged him from driving in the first place which barely shows up in the stat sheet but watch this and it will be apparent to you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0tn9QRJMec

[Hey Yo]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1813378-how-stephen-curry-is-re-defining-the-point-guard-position-entering-2013-14
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank2_2016/nbarank-2-golden-state-warriors-point-guard-stephen-curry
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html

Everyone refers to Curry as a PG. :confusedshrug: You can play pretend in the corner over there.

He barely run the offense and barely facilitates. He's become an undersized SG. If you'd actually watched the games, you'd see for yourself.

[bizil]

Floor generalship is just ONE ASPECT of PG play. John Stockton was a better floor general than Gary Payton. But I would take Payton ALL DAY over Stock as my PG. In terms of who is the better player. In today's league, most of the top ten PG's are SCORE FIRST PG's! For those guys, floor generalship ISN'T the 1st thing on their list. So when u look at Bron vs. Magic, Magic is the better floor general. BUT Bron is the better scorer, defender, freakish athlete, AND STILL a great floor general himself. Who looks to PASS FIRST like the old school PG's such as Magic!

35 year Bron (still in his prime by the way) is the best player in the league. And YES better that prime Magic RIGHT NOW! Reason being is Bron is MORE DOMINANT on the court! That's just a fact! And Bron is helping to keep the pass first PG ALIVE! It's the first time in SEVERAL YEARS that the best PG in the world is pass first! Bron comes CLOSER to Magic's floor generalship than Magic comes to Bron's edge defensively, athletically, and scoring the rock. Not a knock on Magic. BUT when u move Bron to the PG FLAT OUT, things change! When Bron is at PG, that's the ONLY ONE I would take over Magic. And anybody who thinks Magic WOULDN'T be dominant in today's game is smoking crack. He's the GODFATHER of the positionless type of player we see today! ON TOP of being the GOAT PG!

[Mr. Woke]

Nope.

How is this a serious question?

[8Ball]

Butler was gassed in Game 6.. he just sucked against everyone.

He toyed with Lebron in the first five games basically took him off the dribble at will and Lebron was late to contest almost every J. The only guy who actually stopped him legit slowed him down was AD. He discouraged him from driving in the first place which barely shows up in the stat sheet but watch this and it will be apparent to you.


Game 5: Jimmy Butler wasn't guarded by LeBron at all. Not 1 possession did he square up LeBron and drove on him or shot over him or took him off the dribble and flew by him. Look at the tape:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRIkJ46ILQ&ab_channel=NBA

Game 5 Jimmy Butler actually cooked AD really hard.


Game 3: Same thing. Never tried to drive on LeBron. Always running pick and rolls and screens to get LeBron off of him. LeBron played excellent defence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dadoOIGSkx8&ab_channel=NBA


Game 4, the Lakers put AD on Jimmy Butler and went under his pick and rolls all the time.

Game 5, Jimmy Butler cooks AD.

Game 6. LeBron guards Jimmy Butler.

The tape shows I am correct and you are wrong. Stop spewing lies.

[Bronbron23]

To anyone saying bron is better than magic that's fine. It's debatable but its close either way. For those of you who are saying he's as good or even close to as good of a passer your an idiot and you should be disqualified from ever talking ball again. Bron is better than magic at a few things. Passing ain't one of them.

[dankok8]

Game 5: Jimmy Butler wasn't guarded by LeBron at all. Not 1 possession did he square up LeBron and drove on him or shot over him or took him off the dribble and flew by him. Look at the tape:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRIkJ46ILQ&ab_channel=NBA

Game 5 Jimmy Butler actually cooked AD really hard.


Game 3: Same thing. Never tried to drive on LeBron. Always running pick and rolls and screens to get LeBron off of him. LeBron played excellent defence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dadoOIGSkx8&ab_channel=NBA


Game 4, the Lakers put AD on Jimmy Butler and went under his pick and rolls all the time.

Game 5, Jimmy Butler cooks AD.

Game 6. LeBron guards Jimmy Butler.

The tape shows I am correct and you are wrong. Stop spewing lies.

No.

The video I posted is from Ben Taylor and he shows the defensive mastery of Davis defending Butler. The tape and every objective source agrees with my take. Everyone who's watched the Finals know that Davis changed the game on that end. Only you say otherwise...

[red1]

completely unbiased take here. the only pointguards you'd even consider are all-time legends like isiah thomas or magic.




the keyword is consider because you would still take old man james.

[dankok8]

Game 5: Jimmy Butler wasn't guarded by LeBron at all. Not 1 possession did he square up LeBron and drove on him or shot over him or took him off the dribble and flew by him. Look at the tape:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRIkJ46ILQ&ab_channel=NBA

Game 5 Jimmy Butler actually cooked AD really hard.


Game 3: Same thing. Never tried to drive on LeBron. Always running pick and rolls and screens to get LeBron off of him. LeBron played excellent defence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dadoOIGSkx8&ab_channel=NBA


Game 4, the Lakers put AD on Jimmy Butler and went under his pick and rolls all the time.

Game 5, Jimmy Butler cooks AD.

Game 6. LeBron guards Jimmy Butler.

The tape shows I am correct and you are wrong. Stop spewing lies.

Just watched the first video you posted from Game 3 (40pt trip dub). Lebron was isolated with Butler five times... four of those times Butler beat him off the dribble and one time he used a soft screen to make a dribble into a wide open 14 footer. He mostly posted up on small guys like Caruso, Green and KCP. Don't recall seeing him score on Davis.

[8Ball]

Did you watch game 5? Watch tape. Half the shots he made were against AD in isolation.

Game 6? LeBron ate him up.

Your excuse is he is "tired". He's 31.


LeBron defending Kawhi just a few months ago and Kawhi couldn't beat LeBron off the dribble at all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7elOsgDL7Cc&ab_channel=LongEthan

LeBron was playing at all-defensive level this year. Just voters don't watch basketball tape, only read stories.

[dankok8]

Did you watch game 5? Watch tape. Half the shots he made were against AD in isolation.

Game 3, scored 1 time over him in isolation. And was only in position to score 1 time? Give me a break. The rest he passed to other players cutting and rotating.

I did...

Your videos only show possessions on which Butler scored. If you want to do a serious analysis, show the complete footage every time Jimmy touches the ball. The shots he missed, the times he turned the ball over, the times he passed up a shot...

Ben Taylor is a serious analyst who actually thinks very very highly of Lebron and he said Davis made all the difference defensively on Butler.

[Lebron23]

Lebron in 2020 is better than any version of Magic Johnson.

[Bronbron23]

Did you watch game 5? Watch tape. Half the shots he made were against AD in isolation.

Game 6? LeBron ate him up.

Your excuse is he is "tired". He's 31.


LeBron defending Kawhi just a few months ago and Kawhi couldn't beat LeBron off the dribble at all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7elOsgDL7Cc&ab_channel=LongEthan

LeBron was playing at all-defensive level this year. Just voters don't watch basketball tape, only read stories.

Not sure bron played defense consistently enough in the regular to deserve an award. That said when engaged he's one of the best defenders in the game

[vidsmart]

Floor generalship is just ONE ASPECT of PG play. John Stockton was a better floor general than Gary Payton. But I would take Payton ALL DAY over Stock as my PG. In terms of who is the better player. In today's league, most of the top ten PG's are SCORE FIRST PG's! For those guys, floor generalship ISN'T the 1st thing on their list. So when u look at Bron vs. Magic, Magic is the better floor general. BUT Bron is the better scorer, defender, freakish athlete, AND STILL a great floor general himself. Who looks to PASS FIRST like the old school PG's such as Magic!

35 year Bron (still in his prime by the way) is the best player in the league. And YES better that prime Magic RIGHT NOW! Reason being is Bron is MORE DOMINANT on the court! That's just a fact! And Bron is helping to keep the pass first PG ALIVE! It's the first time in SEVERAL YEARS that the best PG in the world is pass first! Bron comes CLOSER to Magic's floor generalship than Magic comes to Bron's edge defensively, athletically, and scoring the rock. Not a knock on Magic. BUT when u move Bron to the PG FLAT OUT, things change! When Bron is at PG, that's the ONLY ONE I would take over Magic. And anybody who thinks Magic WOULDN'T be dominant in today's game is smoking crack. He's the GODFATHER of the positionless type of player we see today! ON TOP of being the GOAT PG!

I rarely post but I had to log in just to say that I couldn’t agree more with every word of this!

[999Guy]

09 Chris Paul. 16 or 17 Curry. Both would’ve dominated to titles in place of him.

Maybe a Magic year if he was an average or decent defender.

Hell maybe a Jerry west year.

LeBron was great, amazing at times in the playoffs, but this wasn’t some 2010, visibly towering over the league LeBron. He had a great, complete run. Coasted quite a bit and turned it up.

I think he’s lost half a step to a step from 2017. Really just offensively.

[Gougou]

Best version CP3 could be better, or MVP season Curry.

But this LBJ is crazy tho, he scored 40 in the finals like it was nothing. He also destroyed the Rockets/Nuggets with his court vision etc.

[Pointguard]

35 year Bron (still in his prime by the way) is the best player in the league. And YES better that prime Magic RIGHT NOW! Reason being is Bron is MORE DOMINANT on the court!

Bron does more things better than Magic. Magic had more control of the game. The other team played according to how Magic controlled the tempo. Even super experienced teams like Boston. Lebron has never done that. He can't force an uptempo game. He rarely selects who is going to be a top player in the game. Lebron is going to be the best individual player and he can take advantage of his teams height advantage. He had years of being being the best athletic team in the league and they weren't known as a running team or a team that got a lot of easy baskets because of Bron's play. The Heat teams were never as efficient as those Laker teams. Magic had the most efficient teams ever. Higher than the great passing Celtic teams.

Lebron is definitely more athletic but Magic got more out of his athleticism for the sake of the team. Strength; Magic posted up better to his teams advantage. Bron should take more advantage of his strength - wild considering he's a top 3 player all time. Magic ran infinitely better than Lebron ever did, for his teams advantage. Magic's court vision was on the opposing teams preparation. When teams tried to stop Magic it was more often a dunk for the Lakers. Lebron/Wade/Bosh is way more athletic than Magic/Worthy/Scott but because Magic got more out of this teams athleticism you would question it. The difference is Magic's play vs Lebron's. Bosh was a 24 and 11 guy vs Worthy who was a 21 and 6 guy at best. Wade was the most athletic shooting guard ever outside of Jordan. This is just looking at their athletic play on Youtube. So no I don't have Lebron over Magic athletically basketball wise. Everything Magic has to be considered team wise. His play was for the team.


Not a knock on Magic. BUT when u move Bron to the PG FLAT OUT, things change! When Bron is at PG, that's the ONLY ONE I would take over Magic. And anybody who thinks Magic WOULDN'T be dominant in today's game is smoking crack. He's the GODFATHER of the positionless type of player we see today! ON TOP of being the GOAT PG!
I haven't seen Bron change the pace of a game. I haven't seen him be super effective without scoring: Cause that's when you know you got the floor covered. Great player but he doesn't have it all covered. I would like to see him post more, force tempo and get his teammates dunks a bit more.

[Dagoods]

Prime J-Kidd owns 35-year old LeBron.
Kidd was the better defender, better FT shooter as well, and better court vision, etc.

[bizil]

Bron does more things better than Magic. Magic had more control of the game. The other team played according to how Magic controlled the tempo. Even super experienced teams like Boston. Lebron has never done that. He can't force an uptempo game. He rarely selects who is going to be a top player in the game. Lebron is going to be the best individual player and he can take advantage of his teams height advantage. He had years of being being the best athletic team in the league and they weren't known as a running team or a team that got a lot of easy baskets because of Bron's play. The Heat teams were never as efficient as those Laker teams. Magic had the most efficient teams ever. Higher than the great passing Celtic teams.

Lebron is definitely more athletic but Magic got more out of his athleticism for the sake of the team. Strength; Magic posted up better to his teams advantage. Bron should take more advantage of his strength - wild considering he's a top 3 player all time. Magic ran infinitely better than Lebron ever did, for his teams advantage. Magic's court vision was on the opposing teams preparation. When teams tried to stop Magic it was more often a dunk for the Lakers. Lebron/Wade/Bosh is way more athletic than Magic/Worthy/Scott but because Magic got more out of this teams athleticism you would question it. The difference is Magic's play vs Lebron's. Bosh was a 24 and 11 guy vs Worthy who was a 21 and 6 guy at best. Wade was the most athletic shooting guard ever outside of Jordan. This is just looking at their athletic play on Youtube. So no I don't have Lebron over Magic athletically basketball wise. Everything Magic has to be considered team wise. His play was for the team.

I haven't seen Bron change the pace of a game. I haven't seen him be super effective without scoring: Cause that's when you know you got the floor covered. Great player but he doesn't have it all covered. I would like to see him post more, force tempo and get his teammates dunks a bit more.

That's why I said FLOOR GENERAL WISE I would take Magic over Bron. So you are PREACHING to the choir in that regard. As the better player I would take Bron. And Bron NOT SUPER EFFECTIVE without scoring? He has one of the best floor games (boards, passing, defense) of ALL TIME at his peak! It just so happened he's also a phenomenal scorer. He would be A FOOL not to take advantage of that. That's why his BEST POSITION is as a point forward/SF! As a passer, he and Bird HANDS DOWN are the best passing forwards ever. In terms of floor generalship among SF's, Bron is the best SF ever in that regard. In comparison to PG's, he comes back to the pack.

And those great Lakers teams were flat out BETTER than Bron's Heat teams. Magic was able to drop dimes to Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, B Scott, Nixon, Wilkes etc. In your post you NEVER MENTIONED the quality of teams Magic played on.

For Bron's teams to be SUCCESSFUL, he had to score all those points. For Magic's teams to be successful, he DIDN'T have to score nearly as many points. Since Magic as the ULTIMATE pass first PG, it fit PERFECTLY into his game. Bron is more like an Oscar. A pass first guy BUT NOT as pass first as Magic.

[bizil]

Here's the thing some posters are missing... Floor generalship is just ONE ASPECT OF PG PLAY! When u put Bron at PG, you are getting a 6'9 250 pound freak athlete who is pass first, averaged 26+PPG, leads the league in dimes and is a walking triple double. Sure CP3, Magic, and a Kidd are BETTER FLOOR GENERALS! But Bron is STILL an elite floor general. And frankly does other things THOSE GUYS JUST CAN'T do! And Bron is still the best player in the world! So when I see comments like Kidd SMOKES Bron as a PG, I LMAO!!!!

On top of that, the PG spot is LARGELY a score first position now. Ben Simmons is a better floor general than Steph and Dame. BUT Steph and Dame are better players! So you GOTTA be careful when u base who is the better PG off of floor generalship. Sometimes it applies FOR SURE! Sometimes it doesn't! The OP's question was about PG NOT floor generalship!

[dankok8]

There is about as much of a difference in scoring between Magic and Lebron as there is between Lebron and Jordan. About 5 ppg...

Peak Magic generally gave you ~23 ppg on very good efficiency. Not tot shabby for a guy who can't score! Lebron has surpassed Magic all time because he's accumulated a greater career but in their peaks you can easily make a case that Magic was the better basketball player even if I personally disagree with it. I see Lebron as better but there is a definite case for Magic who is the greatest floor general/offensive leader ever and whose all-around game and intangibles quite frankly get underrated by kids who never watched him play.

[Pointguard]

That's why I said FLOOR GENERAL WISE I would take Magic over Bron. So you are PREACHING to the choir in that regard. As the better player I would take Bron. And Bron NOT SUPER EFFECTIVE without scoring? He has one of the best floor games (boards, passing, defense) of ALL TIME at his peak! It just so happened he's also a phenomenal scorer. He would be A FOOL not to take advantage of that. That's why his BEST POSITION is as a point forward/SF! As a passer, he and Bird HANDS DOWN are the best passing forwards ever. In terms of floor generalship among SF's, Bron is the best SF ever in that regard. In comparison to PG's, he comes back to the pack.
In games that Lebron doesn't score his team greatly suffers and plays bad: He was very young SA champioship series but in Dallas championship series he was very much in the way.

He and Bird are the best non PG passers for sure.

The conversation is about PG. You are are trying to shift away from that. Lebron is not a better PG than Magic.


And those great Lakers teams were flat out BETTER than Bron's Heat teams. Magic was able to drop dimes to Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, B Scott, Nixon, Wilkes etc. In your post you NEVER MENTIONED the quality of teams Magic played on.
My conversation was about athleticism which I argue Magic is far better at getting athleticism out of his players and himself by posting and forcing a running game. He uses his strength in the post, he used his speed in the running game. Lebron doesn't press the issue in the post or with his running game. For all practicality, Magic gets more mileage out of his athletic advantages. When I see Lebron live he's a mini Shaq. Fast and very big. His game doesn't maximize his advantages amazingly he's still a top player all time. Its odd but true. Magic and Worthy were not as fast/strong as Lebron and Wade but I'm sure they got more points from post ups and the fast breaks than Bron/Wade, both of whom were far better scorers.

[bizil]

There is about as much of a difference in scoring between Magic and Lebron as there is between Lebron and Jordan. About 5 ppg...

Peak Magic generally gave you ~23 ppg on very good efficiency. Not tot shabby for a guy who can't score! Lebron has surpassed Magic all time because he's accumulated a greater career but in their peaks you can easily make a case that Magic was the better basketball player even if I personally disagree with it. I see Lebron as better but there is a definite case for Magic who is the greatest floor general/offensive leader ever and whose all-around game and intangibles quite frankly get underrated by kids who never watched him play.

Whoever said Magic CAN'T score??? Magic was an alpha dog scoring PG in his own right. WITH THAT SAID, Bron is the better scorer who LOOKS TO SCORE more than Magic. But Bron is still a pass first type of player. Just not as pass first as Magic. With that said, Magic is the GOAT PG, GOAT floor general, and the ultimate leader.

[bizil]

In games that Lebron doesn't score his team greatly suffers and plays bad: He was very young SA champioship series but in Dallas championship series he was very much in the way.

He and Bird are the best non PG passers for sure.

The conversation is about PG. You are are trying to shift away from that. Lebron is not a better PG than Magic.

My conversation was about athleticism which I argue Magic is far better at getting athleticism out of his players and himself by posting and forcing a running game. He uses his strength in the post, he used his speed in the running game. Lebron doesn't press the issue in the post or with his running game. For all practicality, Magic gets more mileage out of his athletic advantages. When I see Lebron live he's a mini Shaq. Fast and very big. His game doesn't maximize his advantages amazingly he's still a top player all time. Its odd but true. Magic and Worthy were not as fast/strong as Lebron and Wade but I'm sure they got more points from post ups and the fast breaks than Bron/Wade, both of whom were far better scorers.


I'm not shifting away AT ALL from the PG argument! In all my posts, I CLEARLY explained floor generalship is only ONE FACET of PG play. In previous eras, it was the MOST IMPORTANT facet. IN today's game, ITS NOT! Bron's floor generalship is still elite AND he's a pass first player who gets 10 assists a night. So Bron STILL FULFILLS the old school PG aspects!

John Stockton is a BETTER floor general than Walt Frazier and Gary Payton. BUT I would take those two over Stock for my PG. Because I get all time great defense, 20 PPG, and elite floor generalship. Stock's edge in floor generalship ISN'T enough for me to take him OVER those two!

Bron ISN'T a score first PG like most of the today's top 15 PG's. Just sayin once Bron moved to the PG, I'll Bron's 26 PPG-10 dimes-7 RPG OVER Magic's edge in floor generalship. I'm basing my decision on the TOTALITY OF Bron's game that he brings to the PG. If I was basing my decision MERELY on floor generalship, I'm taking Magic all day over Bron!

[Pointguard]

Here's the thing some posters are missing... Floor generalship is just ONE ASPECT OF PG PLAY! When u put Bron at PG, you are getting a 6'9 250 pound freak athlete who is pass first, averaged 26+PPG, leads the league in dimes and is a walking triple double. Magic's floor generalship was perhaps the most comprehensive play there was ever in basketball. He often affected the other team's efficiency. The back courts of other teams often shot horrible being worried about Magic getting out on breaks. His ability to run affected every aspect of the game. This was an attribute I never saw in other players.



Sure CP3, Magic, and a Kidd are BETTER FLOOR GENERALS! But Bron is STILL an elite floor general. And frankly does other things THOSE GUYS JUST CAN'T do! And Bron is still the best player in the world! So when I see comments like Kidd SMOKES Bron as a PG, I LMAO!!!!
I hear you.



On top of that, the PG spot is LARGELY a score first position now. Ben Simmons is a better floor general than Steph and Dame. BUT Steph and Dame are better players! So you GOTTA be careful when u base who is the better PG off of floor generalship. Sometimes it applies FOR SURE! Sometimes it doesn't! The OP's question was about PG NOT floor generalship!
Magic, is a separate category. Magic is better than Steph and Dame as long as he has two athletes and and two shooters.

[Pointguard]

John Stockton is a BETTER floor general than Walt Frazier and Gary Payton. BUT I would take those two over Stock for my PG. Because I get all time great defense, 20 PPG, and elite floor generalship. Stock's edge in floor generalship ISN'T enough for me to take him OVER those two!

Yeah, but that's Stockton. You ever watch an All Star game or Olympics when Magic left the floor and Stockton stepped in? And Stockton is in that second tier of greatest floor generals. The game noticeably lost a step when Magic went out the game. Defense as well.

[RRR3]

This topic is so funny. Magic is better than Lebron, how could 35 years old Lebron could be better than prime Magic? :lol

My answer is:

Magic
Isiah
Curry
West
O. Robertson
CP3

Also I think;
Kidd
Nash
Stockton
Westbrook
Harden (as playing PG)
.
.
.
etc....

There are lots of PG's in history that 2020 Lakers would still win title if you replaced with Lebron. Davis was better than all players they played against in 2020 playoffs.
Permaban time.

[Sulico]

Ofcourse.

I would take prime Curry without any hesitation.

[SATAN]

I don't understand the point of threads like this. What other team members are you giving me? Do I need play making, hight and toughness or as poster above said, someone who can shoot the lights out and zip around the court doing other stuff? Also kinda injury prone :eek:

It is after all, still a team sport...No matter how much LeBron makes it look like it's just him dominating 5 other players out there because he is the GOAT.