It's Impossible to Defend in the Modern NBA

[dankok8]

Modern being last 5 or so years.. even after handchecking was abolished teams like the 2008 Celtics and early 2010's like the Spurs, Grizzlies, Heat and Pacers were playing actual defense but the last 5 years it's gotten to the point where any contact is a foul.

I was going to make a thread destroying Lebron's defense in many of his Finals particularly 2014, 2017, 2018 and 2020 ... if you look at the footage it's clear he is constantly beat off the dribble, guys get clean jumpers in his grill and bigger guys post him up very successfully. Most of the time defending in transition he doesn't even bother trying to put himself between the man and the ball or help on drives to the rim.

Then it occurred to me... you can't defend in the NBA right now. Even defensive greats in their primes like Pippen would look like a liability on defense with today's rules. Who can defend a guy like KD cuz you got to be a foot away to deny him an open J. When he drives there simply isn't enough time to slide and get your feet set to cut him off. And if a defender is moving it's almost always a block. And a superstar like Lebron can't afford to pick up fouls. Likewise when he's between the man and the rim and the guy is running at him. If he goes up to contest 90% of the time it will be a foul and two free throws. Back in the day, some contact in basketball was ok. Keeping a hand on the guy's hips as he begins to drive was ok. Bodychecking him as he goes around screens was ok. Touching a shooter's hand after the shot was ok. Today guys throw their hands or feet after the shooting motion at the defender hoping to get plus one and they often do. I'm thinking of you Harden! Today you just can't defend guys. And that's evident from the monster seasons in the last few years by players who are visibly less skilled than the best in the game.

Harden:
16-17 --> 29.1/8.1/11.2 on 61.3 %TS
18-19 --> 36.1/6.6/7.5 on 61.6 %TS -- highest pts/75 possessions in league history...
19-20 --> 34.3/6.6/7.5 on 62.6 %TS -- top 5 in pts/75 possessions in league history

Westbrook:
16-17 --> 31.6/10.7/10.4 on 55.4 %TS -- 30pt triple double...
17-18 --> 25.4/10.1/10.3 on 52.4 %TS -- 25pt triple double...

Curry:
15-16 --> 30.1/5.4/6.7 on 66.9 %TS -- most efficient 30pt season in league history
17-18 --> 26.4/5.1/6.1 on 67.5 %TS

Durant:
16-17 --> 25.1/8.3/4.8 on 65.1 %TS
17-18 --> 26.4/6.8/5.4 on 64.0 %TS
18-19 --> 26.0/6.45.9 on 63.1 %TS

Giannis:
18-19 --> 27.7/12.5/5.9 on 64.4 %TS
19-20 --> 29.5/13.6/5.6 on 61.3 %TS -- beats peak Shaq statistically

Lillard:
19-20 --> 30.0/4.3/8.0 on 62.7 %TS

Lebron:
16-17 --> 26.4/8.6/8.7 on 61.9 %TS
17-18 --> 27.5/8.6/9.1 on 62.1 %TS

I could also post playoffs and finals numbers but why bother. It's the same trend. Guys like KD have put up better scoring finals than prime Jordan and guys like Jimmy Butler had better Finals statistically than top 20 all-timers like Dr J. Donovan Mitchell putting up 36 ppg on almost 70 %TS. We have to put stats in context.

[light]

It's not impossible.

Harden, Westbrook, Lillard and Giannis always get eliminated at some point in the first three rounds of the playoffs so someone is defending them well enough.

[dankok8]

It's not impossible.

Harden, Westbrook, Lillard and Giannis always get eliminated at some point in the first three rounds of the playoffs so someone is defending them well enough.

Or they got hurt in the playoffs and lack supporting casts to get it done.

Regardless that point of this thread is the serious offensive inflation the last 5 years in the NBA. Even the guys that decline in the playoffs are still routinely putting up video game numbers. Harden is at 29.5/5.7/7.3 on 57.8 %TS the last four postseasons. Those are prime Kobe/West type numbers.

[RRR3]

Or they got hurt in the playoffs and lack supporting casts to get it done.

Regardless that point of this thread is the serious offensive inflation the last 5 years in the NBA. Even the guys that decline in the playoffs are still routinely putting up video game numbers. Harden is at 29.5/5.7/7.3 on 57.8 %TS the last four postseasons. Those are prime Kobe/West type numbers.
Harden is one of the best scorers of all time...

[iamgine]

It's more due to guys are a lot better at shooting nowadays and it has opened up the court and make it easier for everyone.

Defense in the 70s and 80s were horrible. It's not that great in the 90s either. I don't know why there's this misconception of defense being so hardcore back then.

Reggie Miller had a couple deep playoff run where he was matching KD's scoring rate and efficiency. Freakin Reggie Miller. I mean he's nice but he's no KD. Turns out being a great 3 point shooter makes you uber efficient.

[dankok8]

Harden is one of the best scorers of all time...

Depends on what you mean by "one of"... Top 30 yea sure. Top 10 like one could think from his stats. Not even close.

[Bronbron23]

Modern being last 5 or so years.. even after handchecking was abolished teams like the 2008 Celtics and early 2010's like the Spurs, Grizzlies, Heat and Pacers were playing actual defense but the last 5 years it's gotten to the point where any contact is a foul.

I was going to make a thread destroying Lebron's defense in many of his Finals particularly 2014, 2017, 2018 and 2020 ... if you look at the footage it's clear he is constantly beat off the dribble, guys get clean jumpers in his grill and bigger guys post him up very successfully. Most of the time defending in transition he doesn't even bother trying to put himself between the man and the ball or help on drives to the rim.

Then it occurred to me... you can't defend in the NBA right now. Even defensive greats in their primes like Pippen would look like a liability on defense with today's rules. Who can defend a guy like KD cuz you got to be a foot away to deny him an open J. When he drives there simply isn't enough time to slide and get your feet set to cut him off. And if a defender is moving it's almost always a block. And a superstar like Lebron can't afford to pick up fouls. Likewise when he's between the man and the rim and the guy is running at him. If he goes up to contest 90% of the time it will be a foul and two free throws. Back in the day, some contact in basketball was ok. Keeping a hand on the guy's hips as he begins to drive was ok. Bodychecking him as he goes around screens was ok. Touching a shooter's hand after the shot was ok. Today guys throw their hands or feet after the shooting motion at the defender hoping to get plus one and they often do. I'm thinking of you Harden! Today you just can't defend guys. And that's evident from the monster seasons in the last few years by players who are visibly less skilled than the best in the game.

Harden:
16-17 --> 29.1/8.1/11.2 on 61.3 %TS
18-19 --> 36.1/6.6/7.5 on 61.6 %TS -- highest pts/75 possessions in league history...
19-20 --> 34.3/6.6/7.5 on 62.6 %TS -- top 5 in pts/75 possessions in league history

Westbrook:
16-17 --> 31.6/10.7/10.4 on 55.4 %TS -- 30pt triple double...
17-18 --> 25.4/10.1/10.3 on 52.4 %TS -- 25pt triple double...

Curry:
15-16 --> 30.1/5.4/6.7 on 66.9 %TS -- most efficient 30pt season in league history
17-18 --> 26.4/5.1/6.1 on 67.5 %TS

Durant:
16-17 --> 25.1/8.3/4.8 on 65.1 %TS
17-18 --> 26.4/6.8/5.4 on 64.0 %TS
18-19 --> 26.0/6.45.9 on 63.1 %TS

Giannis:
18-19 --> 27.7/12.5/5.9 on 64.4 %TS
19-20 --> 29.5/13.6/5.6 on 61.3 %TS -- beats peak Shaq statistically

Lillard:
19-20 --> 30.0/4.3/8.0 on 62.7 %TS

Lebron:
16-17 --> 26.4/8.6/8.7 on 61.9 %TS
17-18 --> 27.5/8.6/9.1 on 62.1 %TS

I could also post playoffs and finals numbers but why bother. It's the same trend. Guys like KD have put up better scoring finals than prime Jordan and guys like Jimmy Butler had better Finals statistically than top 20 all-timers like Dr J. Donovan Mitchell putting up 36 ppg on almost 70 %TS. We have to put stats in context.

Not impossible but yeah it's definitely harder. That's what the league wanted and the rules they put in place accomplishment there goal.

And to think some proponents of this generation actually argue this even though it's literally a fact.

[dankok8]

And to think some proponents of this generation actually argue this even though it's literally a fact.

I don't think they know how to differentiate a fact from an opinion.

Statistical inflation has to be considered when comparing eras and the last 5 or so years is the easiest era to put up stats since the mid 80's. Compared to the 90's and 00's it's much easier now. League average pace and TS% being much higher tells the story. It's also obvious if you watch games or watch so-called great defenders get destroyed night after night. It's not even that they defend badly. You literally can't defend if you're spread out on the 3pt line and can't touch anyone with your hands if they try to drive the ball. Or you can but you'll foul out in 3.5 minutes... :lol

[SATAN]

Jesus Christ this guy is unbearable. Impossible? Yeah sure thing buddy. :oldlol:

Your agenda is clear as day :facepalm

[MadDog]

Jesus Christ this guy is unbearable. Impossible? Yeah sure thing buddy. :oldlol:

Your agenda is clear as day :facepalm

You cry after every post, weenie. Stop that. :oldlol:


I don't think they know how to differentiate a fact from an opinion.

Statistical inflation has to be considered when comparing eras and the last 5 or so years is the easiest era to put up stats since the mid 80's. Compared to the 90's and 00's it's much easier now. League average pace and TS% being much higher tells the story. It's also obvious if you watch games or watch so-called great defenders get destroyed night after night. It's not even that they defend badly. You literally can't defend if you're spread out on the 3pt line and can't touch anyone with your hands if they try to drive the ball. Or you can but you'll foul out in 3.5 minutes... :lol

Good points. How "inflated" do you think a normal statline is today? Compared to say 10-15 years ago

[AirTupac]

Didnt read anyones post. Have you seen the Lakers in the playoffs in the 4th quarter? SUFFOCATING defense you MORON.

[Young X]

Depends on what you mean by "one of"... Top 30 yea sure. Top 10 like one could think from his stats. Not even close.
Saying Harden is not even close is ridiculous.

[Indian guy]

lol it's called SPACING. League began embracing the 3 ball to its fullest following GS' record breaking season in 2016. Thus the major uptick in ORTG from 2017 onward.

The rules have remained unchanged since 04-05.

[RRR3]

Depends on what you mean by "one of"... Top 30 yea sure. Top 10 like one could think from his stats. Not even close.
This is your brain on Space Jam nostalgia.

[LoneyROY7]

Depends on what you mean by "one of"... Top 30 yea sure. Top 10 like one could think from his stats. Not even close.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3o85xnoIXebk3xYx4Q/200.gif

[Indian guy]

And FTA/G to go along free throw rates are pretty much at record lows. This myth that today's players get an endless parade to the line simply isn't supported by any data.

2020
FTA 23.1
FTR .260

2015
FTA 22.8
FTR .273

2010
FTA 24.5
FTR .300

2005
FTA 26.1
FTR .324

2000
FTA 25.3
FTR .308

1995
FTA 27.1
FTR .332

1990
FTA 28.5
FTR .327

1985
FTA 29.4
FTR .330

1980
FTA 27.8
FTR .307

You wanna watch a whistle fest, watch a random game from the 80's or 90's.

[GrayGoat]

You couldn’t breathe on MJ without a foul being called. Irony

[dankok8]

And FTA/G to go along free throw rates are pretty much at record lows. This myth that today's players get an endless parade to the line simply isn't supported by any data.

2020
FTA 23.1
FTR .260

2015
FTA 22.8
FTR .273

2010
FTA 24.5
FTR .300

2005
FTA 26.1
FTR .324

2000
FTA 25.3
FTR .308

1995
FTA 27.1
FTR .332

1990
FTA 28.5
FTR .327

1985
FTA 29.4
FTR .330

1980
FTA 27.8
FTR .307

You wanna watch a whistle fest, watch a random game from the 80's or 90's.

Yea... because in today's leagues players shoot a lot more 3pt shots. Players don't get fouled on jumpers nearly as often as when driving into the paint. When you realize that 21.2% of all shots were 3pt shots in 1997 and today in 2020 that number is 31.8% you figure the free throw rate would be much much lower. Also the FTR isn't a good indicator because players adjust. Defenders know that you can't touch anyone or it's a foul so they don't foul. It doesn't mean it isn't way easier to score the ball.

League average TS% is up. Pace is up.


You couldn’t breathe on MJ without a foul being called. Irony

Interesting hypothesis. MJ averages way way fewer FTA/FGA than a guy like Harden despite taking way more shots closer to the basket.

[Rake2204]

Not impossible, obviously, but it does seem defenders are more hamstrung than they've ever been. I wouldn't mind if the pendulum swung back in the opposite direction just a touch. I feel frustrated for a lot of NBA defenders these days, often because it seems they're being penalized for motions initiated by the offense or for what used to be considered very normal basketball plays.

1. It seems like offensive players can drastically break the vertical plane with the sole intent of initiating a foul call these days, even if it's outside the realm of what'd be considered their normal shooting form. If a defender is airborne in a space and an offensive player decides to invade that space after the fact, I do not believe that should be a defensive foul, but it often is.

2. NBA defenders now have a closeout quandary. Most other levels of basketball still abide by normal closeout rules and everyone survives just fine. Might be a sprained ankle that pops up here or there but that happens in the paint too. In the NBA though, what used to be an acceptable and/or smothered closeout can now result in a flagrant foul if a player happens to land wrong.

3. Swing-through fouls and others of their ilk are still a thing, even if free throws aren't rewarded.

4. Tying into No. 2, shooters are more untouchable than ever and have carved out a wider berth than ever. Drastic forward jumps can still yield free throws, even if the offensive player is encroaching on someone else's defined position. Contact with hands seem more likely to be whistled.

5. Traveling and carrying has evolved just enough to allow even more freedom in evasive offensive procedures. Similar to Dr. Spaceman's take on science in 30 Rock, the zero step in today's game is whatever we want it to be, which is naturally a disadvantage for defenders.

6. The prevalence of stepbacks and the inability to close out effectively creates a defensive quandary. If James Harden steps back and the defender follows to take away his space, Harden is liable to just step into the defender's space and create contact out of thin air. If that defender avoids having an offensive player throw himself into him, then Harden has all the space he desires and bombs away.

This all could be exactly what the NBA was going for, but at times I become frustrated by proxy while trying to watch perimeter defenders try to figure out how to stop the opposition with so few options at their disposal.

[3ball]

.
ESPN: Nearly half of Giannis' drives had no help defender due to spacing

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtOOQ43yw4&t=05m42s


So he wouldn't be as good against the packed paints of previous eras (no teammates spacing the floor), where great shooting was required to shoot over defenses/packed paints, like the gifs below:


https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6ozo2gsUnmBUtTd6/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif


Btw, this is the same reason Lebron wouldn't be nearly as good on previous eras (no teamnates spacing the floor to benefit his penetration/ball-domination

[juju151111]

And FTA/G to go along free throw rates are pretty much at record lows. This myth that today's players get an endless parade to the line simply isn't supported by any data.

2020
FTA 23.1
FTR .260

2015
FTA 22.8
FTR .273

2010
FTA 24.5
FTR .300

2005
FTA 26.1
FTR .324

2000
FTA 25.3
FTR .308

1995
FTA 27.1
FTR .332

1990
FTA 28.5
FTR .327

1985
FTA 29.4
FTR .330

1980
FTA 27.8
FTR .307

You wanna watch a whistle fest, watch a random game from the 80's or 90's.

They take wayyy more 3s bro.

[insight]

It's more due to guys are a lot better at shooting nowadays and it has opened up the court and make it easier for everyone.

Defense in the 70s and 80s were horrible. It's not that great in the 90s either. I don't know why there's this misconception of defense being so hardcore back then.

Reggie Miller had a couple deep playoff run where he was matching KD's scoring rate and efficiency. Freakin Reggie Miller. I mean he's nice but he's no KD. Turns out being a great 3 point shooter makes you uber efficient.

Vince Carter who played in 4 different decades disagrees with you. HE PLAYED the game during different eras and says the increased scoring is due to the lack of physicality in the modern NBA.
If you look at the rule changes implemented over the past 20 years you will see this was done by design to improve scoring and provide a more entertaining product. That's why you have so many 1 and done college players making an immediate impact playing against grown men.
Luka stated it's harder to score in Europe than in the NBA that should tell you something in itself.

[dankok8]

Vince Carter who played in 4 different decades disagrees with you. HE PLAYED the game during different eras and says the increased scoring is due to the lack of physicality in the modern NBA.
If you look at the rule changes implemented over the past 20 years you will see this was done by design to improve scoring and provide a more entertaining product. That's why you have so many 1 and done college players making an immediate impact playing against grown men.
Luka stated it's harder to score in Europe than in the NBA that should tell you something in itself.

Well said... The whole "This era is much better than previous eras." argument always disintegrates when you realize that all legends in NBA history have thrived across eras. For example, Kareem dropped many huge games on Wilt in the early 70's and then on Hakeem in the late 80's. Hakeem then went on to drop huge games on Shaq in the mid 90's and Shaq dropped huge games in the 00's... you get the point. The notion that the best in previous eras couldn't hold their own today is a ridiculous premise. And if we are to have any objective discussions we always have to compare the players' dominance relative to the era they played in instead of trying to call certain eras weak etc. It makes no sense and is completely subjective. The 90's aren't weaker or stronger than today's NBA... just different. :confusedshrug:

Today's era particularly the last 5 years as I mentioned in this thread dramatically inflate offensive impact (and of course in turn deflate defensive impact) compared to 20 years ago. A notion that prime Vince Carter for example could drop 30+ ppg on 58 %TS in his best seasons (instead of 28 ppg on 55 %TS he put up) isn't far-fetched to me at all. With his first step and ability to change direction he'd be a nightmare to guard in today's NBA when you can't touch him on the perimeter. Of course this era would also make him worse defensively. Likewise if you transport Giannis to 2000 he wouldn't come close to Shaq's numbers offensively that he's putting up now but would probably be an even bigger monster defensively with his physicality.

[RRR3]

Still can’t believe OP said Harden was maybe a top 30 scorer ever. Name 29 better or arguably better scorers, champ.

[sdot_thadon]

I agree, it's tougher to defend in this era however I wouldn't go as far as calling it impossible. There are still many good to great defenders in the league and team defenses as well. Players adjust to the rules over time, strategistsin turn learn to leverage the rule sets also.

I get where OP is going with this already, he's pretty see-though here. This take also calls forth another point:

Today's elite defenders are better than those of previous eras by default then? Because it's "impossible" to defend yet they pull it off. Guys without physical gifts who would be serviceable defenders in the hand checking era are reduced to traffic cones in the modern game right? IE: unplayable. So I guess it raises unintended implications as a side effect doesn't it? I'm pretty sure that's not what you wanted to say here....

Without even broaching this part of the conversation:

Still can’t believe OP said Harden was maybe a top 30 scorer ever. Name 29 better or arguably better scorers, champ.

Harden is one of the most dangerous iso players to ever touch a ball, if not only by the sheer volume of reps he has doing his thing.

[dankok8]

Still can’t believe OP said Harden was maybe a top 30 scorer ever. Name 29 better or arguably better scorers, champ.

He is among the top 30 scorers to ever play actually probably top 20. That was in response to you saying he's one of the best scorers ever. Depends how you define best.



I agree, it's tougher to defend in this era however I wouldn't go as far as calling it impossible. There are still many good to great defenders in the league and team defenses as well. Players adjust to the rules over time, strategistsin turn learn to leverage the rule sets also.

I get where OP is going with this already, he's pretty see-though here. This take also calls forth another point:

Today's elite defenders are better than those of previous eras by default then? Because it's "impossible" to defend yet they pull it off. Guys without physical gifts who would be serviceable defenders in the hand checking era are reduced to traffic cones in the modern game right? IE: unplayable. So I guess it raises unintended implications as a side effect doesn't it? I'm pretty sure that's not what you wanted to say here....

Without even broaching this part of the conversation:


There is no agenda behind this thread. I'm just seeing a lot of modern stars get overrated because they have an easy time putting monster stats.

When I said impossible it's hyperbole but it's very very difficult.

When you say it's not impossible because they pull it off... what exactly do they pull off? Lebron who is one of the best SF defenders ever had KD put up 31 ppg on 65 %TS, 35 ppg on 70 %TS and 29 ppg on 65 %TS on him in 3 Finals series. Obviously Lebron didn't defend him the entire time but if you watch the footage it's clear that Lebron couldn't even put a speed bump. Either he's not a good defender (Which I don't believe...) or it's very very difficult to play defense. Or in this year's Finals against Jimmy Butler who put up 26/8/10 on 65 %TS. That's easily one of the best Finals of all time. Either Jimmy Butler is one of the greatest players ever because peak Bird couldn't reach those numbers in any Finals or this era is easy for offenses. It's obvious...

And yes today's stars transported from 2020 to 2000 would be worse offensive players but also better defensive players. I concur with that.

[SATAN]

You couldn’t breathe on MJ without a foul being called. Irony

Completely ignored :lol

[72-10]

This is your brain on Space Jam nostalgia.

Not really. He's not a top 10 offensive player. If one has a consistent jump shot it's not difficult to score consistently if one cheats most of the time because cheating throws off the defense, and anyone who cheats most of time is actually unpredictable as to when they will cheat. He still hasn't cheated as much as LeBron, though, who also isn't a top 10 offensive player.

[72-10]

Relay to Indian guy w/o reading Indian guy's full post; Harden goes to greater lengths to draw fouls than any other player I've seen, he'll do anything to get the whistle, including but not limited to flailing his arms up in the air on a fallaway jump shot where he clearly wasn't fouled and by the way, is incredibly unlikely to be fouled , and he has mastered the art of baiting defenders to draw contact, so he gets to the line more than any other player, and then you consider the remarkable rate at which he makes the shots unguarded at the line, James Harden is peaking now and he gets more of his scoring unguarded than any other player.

[sdot_thadon]

He is among the top 30 scorers to ever play actually probably top 20. That was in response to you saying he's one of the best scorers ever. Depends how you define best.



There is no agenda behind this thread. I'm just seeing a lot of modern stars get overrated because they have an easy time putting monster stats.
In what sense? Great players are great players, do we need to assume that Mj, Bird, and Magic were overrated because they were allowed more freedom with their dribble than Oscar, West, or Baylor were? Or because they had a 3 point line to augment their scoring when Wilt did not? Basketball didn't just happen in the 80s till today....


When you say it's not impossible because they pull it off... what exactly do they pull off? Lebron who is one of the best SF defenders ever had KD put up 31 ppg on 65 %TS, 35 ppg on 70 %TS and 29 ppg on 65 %TS on him in 3 Finals series. Obviously Lebron didn't defend him the entire time but if you watch the footage it's clear that Lebron couldn't even put a speed bump. Either he's not a good defender (Which I don't believe...) or it's very very difficult to play defense.
That......and ....there's never been a Kd before, he's 7 feet tall with as good handles and shooting ability as any perimeter guy we've seen. Nobody is stopping that in any era I hate to break it to you, Heisman posing on defense isn't gonna save you from Kevin f'n Durant.:lol


Or in this year's Finals against Jimmy Butler who put up 26/8/10 on 65 %TS. That's easily one of the best Finals of all time. Either Jimmy Butler is one of the greatest players ever because peak Bird couldn't reach those numbers in any Finals or this era is easy for offenses. It's obvious...

Ok Jimmy Butler, I'll give you that. But only because we don't know if that was a one time series of his life type thing, or if that's the real Jimmy Butler going forward. We'll see, but for now I'll concede that point.



And yes today's stars transported from 2020 to 2000 would be worse offensive players but also better defensive players. I concur with that.
Cool. But, I have a difficult time believing that great players can't adjust to different eras. Especially when we expect past players to seamlessly murder the modern game without being respectable from 3. Just seems like a double standard to me. If you're great, then you adjust to house rules on any court you play. Just my 2 cents.

[Baller789]

Todays 30 is a lot like 25 pts. a few decades ago. No longer impressive as well.
With the defences inability to contain even average players coupled with spacing, the driving lane is always open.

[Hey Yo]

Yea... because in today's leagues players shoot a lot more 3pt shots. Players don't get fouled on jumpers nearly as often as when driving into the paint. When you realize that 21.2% of all shots were 3pt shots in 1997 and today in 2020 that number is 31.8% you figure the free throw rate would be much much lower. Also the FTR isn't a good indicator because players adjust. Defenders know that you can't touch anyone or it's a foul so they don't foul. It doesn't mean it isn't way easier to score the ball.
You do realize that FTA can be awarded w/o taking a FGA, right? Not all FTA are from being fouled on a FGA.

Plus it's ironic that 1998 old MJ who was shooting many more jumpers rather than driving to the basket those days, yet still avg. 8.8FTA a game. That was his highest regular season avg. since 1989 when he avg. 9.8FTA per game. Defenders knew they couldn't touch MJ, yet he still got to the line.

Stern catering as usual.

[HoopsNY]

You do realize that FTA can be awarded w/o taking a FGA, right? Not all FTA are from being fouled on a FGA.

Plus it's ironic that 1998 old MJ who was shooting many more jumpers rather than driving to the basket those days, yet still avg. 8.8 FTA a game. That was his highest regular season avg. since 1989 when he avg. 9.8 FTA per game. Defenders knew they couldn't touch MJ, yet he still got to the line.

Stern catering as usual.

Huh? Go take a look at the actual numbers

FGA by Distance:

(0-3 ft)

1997: 18%
1998: 23%

(3-10 ft)

1997: 7%
1998: 10%

So Jordan's FGA close to the basket increased by 8% between 1997 and 1998. In addition, MJ's three pointers went way down, which will presumably lead to more fouls below the arc. His 3PA dropped by 2.1 attempts per game.

It's not surprising at all that his free throw attempts went up in 1998. Here's something else to consider. Scottie Pippen missed the first 38 games of that season. During that time, Jordan averaged nearly 10 FTH attempts. Presumably, teams doubled and triple teamed him much more, thus he was able to draw more fouls.

1998 w/o Pippen: 9.6 FTH attempts
1998 w/ Pippen: 8.1 FTH attempts

This has nothing to do with Stern buddy.

[999Guy]

Depends on what you mean by "one of"... Top 30 yea sure. Top 10 like one could think from his stats. Not even close.

Nig.ga this is just your bad opinion.

Harden has been Kobe level offensively since like 2014. It’s his resilience in the playoffs that always at question. He’s gotten better in a lot of ways in his Rockets career. He’s actually a good defender now.

[999Guy]

And it’s not physicality, it’s spacing and 3P shooting, and offensive schemes are perfect these days.


D’Antoni is a freaking assistant coach now, and barely one at that. His philosophies are a dime and dozen.

The league is smarter than ever. But in order to dominate? Still insanely difficult.

[MadDog]

And it’s not physicality, it’s spacing and 3P shooting, and offensive schemes are perfect these days.


D’Antoni is a freaking assistant coach now, and barely one at that. His philosophies are a dime and dozen.

The league is smarter than ever. But in order to dominate? Still insanely difficult.

Its the soft-ass rules that caused spacing and "perfect schemes". Use your brain.

[999Guy]

Relay to Indian guy w/o reading Indian guy's full post; Harden goes to greater lengths to draw fouls than any other player I've seen, he'll do anything to get the whistle, including but not limited to flailing his arms up in the air on a fallaway jump shot where he clearly wasn't fouled and by the way, is incredibly unlikely to be fouled , and he has mastered the art of baiting defenders to draw contact, so he gets to the line more than any other player, and then you consider the remarkable rate at which he makes the shots unguarded at the line, James Harden is peaking now and he gets more of his scoring unguarded than any other player.

Ref baiting is not even close to new. Like not even new in the 60’s. Jerry West was amazing at ref baiting. He wasn’t even a slasher like Harden, he drew shit loads of fouls on these weird swing throughs from mid range and herky jerky movements.


Tons of guys in the 80’s. I mean guys like Magic, Dantley, Sarunas Marculionas. Plenty since the merger.

Tim Duncan was a huge ref baiter on his face ups and overall post game. Huge. Especially in the playoffs.

AK47. It’s a skill to get to the line, and it always has been. Defenders are not dumb, they know this. But if a guy is so good at getting a defender off balance they get out into position to foul, it doesn’t matter.

Harden would absolutely slaughter every era in this league in a not close way. Every era that guy is an MVP or strong candidate.

[999Guy]

Its the soft-ass rules that caused spacing and "perfect schemes". Use your brain.

Actually explain this in detail, stupid. Don’t tell me to use my brain. You just made a statement, use yours and explain when and how this happened.

[dankok8]

In what sense? Great players are great players, do we need to assume that Mj, Bird, and Magic were overrated because they were allowed more freedom with their dribble than Oscar, West, or Baylor were? Or because they had a 3 point line to augment their scoring when Wilt did not? Basketball didn't just happen in the 80s till today....

Well all of those factors should be taken into account when evaluating players. Oscar and West look incredibly unskilled dribbling the ball so to most modern viewers they look like scrubs. However most people don't know that you could never have your hand on the side or under the ball as you were dribbling or it was an automatic violation in those days.

But the minimalist approach is to at least take league average TS% and pace into account. 60's guys might have struggled with some rules that were in place and insane physicality but they also played at super high pace for example.



That......and ....there's never been a Kd before, he's 7 feet tall with as good handles and shooting ability as any perimeter guy we've seen. Nobody is stopping that in any era I hate to break it to you, Heisman posing on defense isn't gonna save you from Kevin f'n Durant.:lol

Using mid 90's rules to defend Durant...

With handchecking you can make it difficult on him. If you can put a hand on his hip when he tries to drive he can't beat you off the dribble so easily which means you can close in and contest more shots. You could bodycheck him as he runs around a screen which is an automatic foul these days. When he manages to get in the paint you can foul him hard (harder than what flagrants one's are these days). That kind of physicality takes a toll on players. By the 4th quarter KD would be gassed getting hit by Charles Oakley all night.


Cool. But, I have a difficult time believing that great players can't adjust to different eras. Especially when we expect past players to seamlessly murder the modern game without being respectable from 3. Just seems like a double standard to me. If you're great, then you adjust to house rules on any court you play. Just my 2 cents.

We can reasonably assume that past players would shoot better in this era because league average shooting % including TS% is up. In 2000 the average %TS was 52.3 and in 2020 the average is 56.5. In 2000 the average pace was 93.1 and in 2020 it is 100.3. Those are significant differences.

How that translates to shooting 3's in particular is hard to estimate but plenty of modern players like Lebron, and Giannis aren't great 3pt shooters. Give someone like prime Shaq a general boost in efficiency of 4% and a few extra possessions to take more shots, grab more rebounds etc. and his stats would look significantly better than the unreal stats he put up in 2000. Maybe 33/17 instead of 30/15 and on even better efficiency. That would be quite scary!

It's impossible to compare eras accurately because the styles of play were so so different but we can get an idea looking at performances relative to league averages. Like we both agree comparing Butler's stats in the 2020 Finals at face value to Bird's stats in the 1980's would make us reach some ridiculous conclusions. :cheers:

[HoopsNY]

Well all of those factors should be taken into account when evaluating players. Oscar and West look incredibly unskilled dribbling the ball so to most modern viewers they look like scrubs. However most people don't know that you could never have your hand on the side or under the ball as you were dribbling or it was an automatic violation in those days.

But the minimalist approach is to at least take league average TS% and pace into account. 60's guys might have struggled with some rules that were in place and insane physicality but they also played at super high pace for example.




Using mid 90's rules to defend Durant...

With handchecking you can make it difficult on him. If you can put a hand on his hip when he tries to drive he can't beat you off the dribble so easily which means you can close in and contest more shots. You could bodycheck him as he runs around a screen which is an automatic foul these days. When he manages to get in the paint you can foul him hard (harder than what flagrants one's are these days). That kind of physicality takes a toll on players. By the 4th quarter KD would be gassed getting hit by Charles Oakley all night.



We can reasonably assume that past players would shoot better in this era because league average shooting % including TS% is up. In 2000 the average %TS was 52.3 and in 2020 the average is 56.5. In 2000 the average pace was 93.1 and in 2020 it is 100.3. Those are significant differences.

How that translates to shooting 3's in particular is hard to estimate but plenty of modern players like Lebron, and Giannis aren't great 3pt shooters. Give someone like prime Shaq a general boost in efficiency of 4% and a few extra possessions to take more shots, grab more rebounds etc. and his stats would look significantly better than the unreal stats he put up in 2000. Maybe 33/17 instead of 30/15 and on even better efficiency. That would be quite scary!

It's impossible to compare eras accurately because the styles of play were so so different but we can get an idea looking at performances relative to league averages. Like we both agree comparing Butler's stats in the 2020 Finals at face value to Bird's stats in the 1980's would make us reach some ridiculous conclusions. :cheers:

Well said

[HoopsNY]

Huh? Go take a look at the actual numbers

FGA by Distance:

(0-3 ft)

1997: 18%
1998: 23%

(3-10 ft)

1997: 7%
1998: 10%

So Jordan's FGA close to the basket increased by 8% between 1997 and 1998. In addition, MJ's three pointers went way down, which will presumably lead to more fouls below the arc. His 3PA dropped by 2.1 attempts per game.

It's not surprising at all that his free throw attempts went up in 1998. Here's something else to consider. Scottie Pippen missed the first 38 games of that season. During that time, Jordan averaged nearly 10 FTH attempts. Presumably, teams doubled and triple teamed him much more, thus he was able to draw more fouls.

1998 w/o Pippen: 9.6 FTH attempts
1998 w/ Pippen: 8.1 FTH attempts

This has nothing to do with Stern buddy.

LeBron stans....***crickets***

[SATAN]

Just popping in to see if NYHoops has gone a post without saying "LeBron stan"

:rolleyes:

[Axe]

Actually explain this in detail, stupid. Don’t tell me to use my brain. You just made a statement, use yours and explain when and how this happened.
Meltdown

[MadDog]

Actually explain this in detail, stupid. Don’t tell me to use my brain. You just made a statement, use yours and explain when and how this happened.

You made MULTIPLE statements and never backed them up. :oldlol: Dumb motherfukker. Look up the handchecking rules (you cant handcheck) and freedom of movement. Threes are easier to come by when you have more space between a defender and offensive player. Or when you watch dudes bring the ball up with nobody picking them up full court. All of that is common sense if you A) understand what the hell you are watching or B) ever played the game.

[HoopsNY]

Just popping in to see if NYHoops has gone a post without saying "LeBron stan"

:rolleyes:

Yep, because LeBron stans never actually have a response to what I say. They can't think too deeply about anything. :lol

[Sulico]

I still can't understand how people can watch 90's games, when players were just standing still on defense and offense most of the time, and say that defense was better back then.

People don't rewatch 90's games? They have some sort of agenda to push? It's just nostalgia? I really can't understan wtf is this.

[HoopsNY]

I still can't understand how people can watch 90's games, when players were just standing still on defense and offense most of the time, and say that defense was better back then.

People don't rewatch 90's games? They have some sort of agenda to push? It's just nostalgia? I really can't understan wtf is this.

That's not how the majority of the 90s was. It really came to that by 1997, the latter part of the decade. The NBA between 1990-1996 was much more fluid.

[r0drig0lac]

And it’s not physicality, it’s spacing and 3P shooting, and offensive schemes are perfect these days.


D’Antoni is a freaking assistant coach now, and barely one at that. His philosophies are a dime and dozen.

The league is smarter than ever. But in order to dominate? Still insanely difficult.

nah, are just the illegal screens

[Mr. Woke]

No it isn't lol.

What an idiotic take.

[dankok8]

No it isn't lol.

What an idiotic take.

Look at league average pace and TS% now and 20 years ago.

[Mr. Woke]

Look at league average pace and TS% now and 20 years ago.

Players can still play defense.

Quit making excuses.

[8Ball]

Here is LeBron defending at 35 years old.

https://streamable.com/sumwd8

5 mins straight.

[dankok8]

Here is LeBron defending at 35 years old.

https://streamable.com/sumwd8

5 mins straight.

The very first two plays in your video Harden beats Lebron off the dribble. And Harden isn't even particularly fast with his first step but there's nothing Lebron can do. If he even touches him at any point it's a foul. If he tries to draw a charge he risks picking up a foul and Lebron as a superstar can't afford to get in foul trouble. Defense is impossible against any competent player who will put the ball on the floor. That's not really a knock on Lebron. You just can't stop guys from getting to the basket in today's game.

[dankok8]

https://i.postimg.cc/8k9bR5Fv/League-Average-TS.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/dQLBZd0v/League-Average-Pace.jpg

[8Ball]

The very first two plays in your video Harden beats Lebron off the dribble. And Harden isn't even particularly fast with his first step but there's nothing Lebron can do. If he even touches him at any point it's a foul. If he tries to draw a charge he risks picking up a foul and Lebron as a superstar can't afford to get in foul trouble. Defense is impossible against any competent player who will put the ball on the floor. That's not really a knock on Lebron. You just can't stop guys from getting to the basket in today's game.

LeBron was sending Harden to the right, Harden is left handed. That was by design.

But I agree it is very difficult to guard the perimeter when the floor is so spaced out and guards are protected.

[999Guy]

You made MULTIPLE statements and never backed them up. :oldlol: Dumb motherfukker. Look up the handchecking rules (you cant handcheck) and freedom of movement. Threes are easier to come by when you have more space between a defender and offensive player. Or when you watch dudes bring the ball up with nobody picking them up full court. All of that is common sense if you A) understand what the hell you are watching or B) ever played the game.

So handchecking, a rule that was tightened up in 05, caused the 3P boom 12 years later. That’s your genius take on the evolution of NBA offense.

Do you not realize handchecking has been called since the 80’s? Before that even.

You could never legally mug a ballhandler.

Freedom of movement came after the Warriors first Durant title. Meaning after 2018. That rule is irrelevant to how offenses have figured out NBA defense with simple principles.

And no full court press? Ni.gga that’s not a good defensive strategy to begin with on a professional player. No starting PG is getting slowed down by a full court press unless the defender is some freak.

[Baller789]

So handchecking, a rule that was tightened up in 05, caused the 3P boom 12 years later. That’s your genius take on the evolution of NBA offense.

Do you not realize handchecking has been called since the 80’s? Before that even.

You could never legally mug a ballhandler.

Freedom of movement came after the Warriors first Durant title. Meaning after 2018. That rule is irrelevant to how offenses have figured out NBA defense with simple principles.

And no full court press? Ni.gga that’s not a good defensive strategy to begin with on a professional player. No starting PG is getting slowed down by a full court press unless the defender is some freak.

False. Lol