Lebron claims Giannis cannot score

[Nike D'Antoni]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1336184786617036800

[light]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1336184786617036800

No he was defending Channing Frye for saying Giannis can't score.

What they probably mean by that is Giannis can't score when he needs to in the playoffs, his regular season average be damned.

[SATAN]

:sleeping

[Kblaze8855]

No he was defending Channing Frye for saying Giannis can't score.

What they probably mean by that is Giannis can't score when he needs to in the playoffs, his regular season average be damned.


I supposed you would have to "damn" his playoff averages too since hes sitting between Bird and Kyrie in playoff PPG ahead of Barkley, Harden, Wade, and most of the hall. And that includes an 11ppg first year without which hed be just north of Kobe and Hakeem at a glance(without actually doing the math....about 26ppg). Obviously you cant remove his early career numbers and not others and have it be fair...just saying. He in fact does score quite a lot in the playoffs. The argument against that line of thinking is "Well does he score them when you need it to win?" which disregards that most scorers obviously arent scoring when its needed to win in the playoffs....or a lot more scorers would have won by now. Im not sure what the much more polished offensive games of Melo, Nique, Mullin, Ray Allen, Alex English, Bernard King, Oscar Robertson, Tim Hardaway, Lillard, Gervin, Kyrie, David Robinson, Webber, Tmac, and literally 5-6 dozen other hall of famers got their teams that Giannis has not already done for his. As best player of course. You put Giannis on a team with a GOAT candidate or top 5-10ish player like Kyrie, David, Oscar and others got when they won....I assume he would win as well. And I assume most of his haters wouldnt acknowledge it as proving anything.

Hes in that early to mid career purgatory spot most of the greats hit at some point before they win and people act like they didnt say all the shit that makes them look stupid in retrospect.

But fans love a pretty jumper. Even when it results in 22 of 92 points while the other team scores 110 and your team loses anyway. Hes roughly as effective as a maybe....second tier hall of famer. Not that first group of elites. But the other guys?

Hes about there. Below the Birds and Kobes and whoevers....and ahead of the Calvin Murphy, Mutombo, and other 3rd or 4th tier guys.

Hes just not gonna get the respect those top tier guys get till he wins.....and he will probably team up to do it while people get mad and ignore how many of the current elites played together to win. Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, Steph, Moses, Wilt, West, Oscar, Kareem, Magic, and Doctor J all played with someone else on that list and the list can get a lot longer if you just wanna include guys better than any Giannis teammate.

Just wait. He will end up with like....Steph, or Luka, or Anthony Davis somewhere and suddenly he will have his career validated because fans are....stupid. I remember a time when Shaq was doing like 30ppg but supposedly couldnt score either because people didnt like how he did it. Then he wins with Kobe and the same style is just so "dominant" its now impressive.

Sports are weird that way.

[SouBeachTalents]

I supposed you would have to "damn" his playoff averages too since hes sitting between Bird and Kyrie in playoff PPG ahead of Barkley, Harden, Wade, and most of the hall. And that includes an 11ppg first year without which hed be just north of Kobe and Hakeem at a glance(without actually doing the math....about 26ppg). Obviously you cant remove his early career numbers and not others and have it be fair...just saying. He in fact does score quite a lot in the playoffs. The argument against that line of thinking is "Well does he score them when you need it to win?" which disregards that most scorers obviously arent scoring when its needed to win in the playoffs....or a lot more scorers would have won by now. Im not sure what the much more polished offensive games of Melo, Nique, Mullin, Ray Allen, Alex English, Bernard King, Oscar Robertson, Tim Hardaway, Lillard, Gervin, Kyrie, David Robinson, Webber, Tmac, and literally 5-6 dozen other hall of famers got their teams that Giannis has not already done for his. As best player of course. You put Giannis on a team with a GOAT candidate or top 5-10ish player like Kyrie, David, Oscar and others got when they won....I assume he would win as well. And I assume most of his haters wouldnt acknowledge it as proving anything.

Hes in that early to mid career purgatory spot most of the greats hit at some point before they win and people act like they didnt say all the shit that makes them look stupid in retrospect.

But fans love a pretty jumper. Even when it results in 22 of 92 points while the other team scores 110 and your team loses anyway. Hes roughly as effective as a maybe....second tier hall of famer. Not that first group of elites. But the other guys?

Hes about there. Below the Birds and Kobes and whoevers....and ahead of the Calvin Murphy, Mutombo, and other 3rd or 4th tier guys.

Hes just not gonna get the respect those top tier guys get till he wins.....and he will probably team up to do it while people get mad and ignore how many of the current elites played together to win. Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, Steph, Moses, Wilt, West, Oscar, Kareem, Magic, and Doctor J all played with someone else on that list and the list can get a lot longer if you just wanna include guys better than any Giannis teammate.

Just wait. He will end up with like....Steph, or Luka, or Anthony Davis somewhere and suddenly he will have his career validated because fans are....stupid. I remember a time when Shaq was doing like 30ppg but supposedly couldnt score either because people didnt like how he did it. Then he wins with Kobe and the same style is just so "dominant" its now impressive.

Sports are weird that way.
Tbf though of those guys you listed only 2 ever won MVP, in fact Giannis has as many MVP's as that entire grouping combined. So yes, with the exception of Oscar & Robinson, when you're the 2x reigning MVP the expectations for Giannis should be higher than all of those other guys.

I'm in full agreement with you that fans are generally stupid and incapable of separating the team result from how the player performed, if you win you get props no matter how shitty you played, you lose you get clowned no matter how well you performed. And the guy just turned 26, an age where even Jordan & LeBron were still years away from winning, so it'd be stating the obvious that writing him off as a loser would be extremely premature.

But there IS valid criticism about his game & individual performance right now, his scoring and efficiency has taken a significant dive the last 2 series he's lost, and he's coming off a humiliating defeat as the substantial favorite these past playoffs.

I agree that fans will dismiss someone's game if it's ugly (they still do this with LeBron :lol), but his lack of a jumper & reliable outside scoring has been a legitimate flaw in his game that's been exploited by his opponent these past two playoffs. Even the numbers bear this out

2019 RS: 28 ppg on 64%TS
2020 RS: 30 ppg on 61%TS

2019 vs. Raps: 23 ppg on 52% TS; 21 on 48% the last 4 games
2020 vs. Miami: 22 ppg on 55% TS; 23 on 51% if you take out the game he played 11 minutes

Those are substantial drop offs in both production and efficiency, and when you add on his team just got walloped as the huge favorite the year after blowing a 2-0 lead in the conference finals, of course the guy's gonna be criticized. This isn't just an issue of idiot fans saying "no rangz", his actual performance has left him open to legitimate criticism for now, but he obviously still has many years left to change that narrative just as so many stars have done before him

[Kblaze8855]

Where the whole line of thinking falls apart is when you apply the reasons you pick to explain declined numbers then ignore the same drop offs in people without that reason available.

Giannis numbers drop....the given reason is they found an exploitable hole in his skill set.

Ok.

When Kyrie puts up 20 on 36% and 22 percent from 3 getting knocked out in 5 games...is it holes in his scoring skill set? Or is it playing poorly?


When Dirk has 20 on 38% and like 11 points getting knocked out by an 8th seed.....

Did he lack skill?

What exploitable lack of skill did they find to hold Bird to 18 on .446TS when he was knocked out in 82? And when they got swept the next year and he did 18 on 454ts.

Which skills did a prime 26 year old Larry Bird not have?

When dozens of players you would consider far more skilled than Giannis play as bad or much worse...why didn’t their supposed skills prevent it?

Ill tell you the problem....


Fans take the result and then shape their criticism based on their own limited understanding of the game. So 12 people lose....and whatever hole the fan spots in their game is now the reason why and the reason the player didn’t do better. Never mind that the 11 others don’t have that hole and didn’t do anything either.

When it’s Nash it’s because he can’t defend, when it’s Giannis it’s because he can’t shoot, when it’s Iverson it’s because he’s selfish. But then people like Chris Paul can defend, shoot, and boost the game of his teammates and still loses even on super talented teams.

So what then?

In the end....it’s just people trying to sound informed making surface level observations that are cookie cutter as can be.

Know why people lose? Even the greats?


Because 29 teams have to. And small sample sizes make playoff series averages swing wildly night to night in ways that are often irrelevant to the outcome.

You go looking you can find a hundred examples of MVP caliber guys losing and putting up worse numbers.

Doesnt mean they weren’t that good. It means 5 games pressing the issue when you’re losing(as everyone mostly does) can hurt shooting numbers. It means you played a wicked D. It means a lot of usually easy baskets rimmed out. It means you got doubled....it means your point guard had a bad ankle and his backup doesn’t get you the ball where you like it. It means your quad was tight. It means your team got outcoached.

It means a hundred things....and none of them. Fans just have trouble with the idea that more is going on than their 15 seconds of drive by analyzing can cover so they assign the simplest explanation. That Giannis isn’t a shooter and therefore played worse when shooting is at a premium. Why the 50 people who are shooters played worse when they lost is a totally segregated issue.

Fans keep it in neat little boxes to avoid such logical problems.

[k0kakw0rld]

Where the whole line of thinking falls apart is when you apply the reasons you pick to explain declined numbers then ignore the same drop offs in people without that reason available.

Giannis numbers drop....the given reason is they found an exploitable hole in his skill set.

Ok.

When Kyrie puts up 20 on 36% and 22 percent from 3 getting knocked out in 5 games...is it holes in his scoring skill set? Or is it playing poorly?


When Dirk has 20 on 38% and like 11 points getting knocked out by an 8th seed.....

Did he lack skill?

What exploitable lack of skill did they find to hold Bird to 18 on .446TS when he was knocked out in 82? And when they got swept the next year and he did 18 on 454ts.

Which skills did a prime 26 year old Larry Bird not have?

When dozens of players you would consider far more skilled than Giannis play as bad or much worse...why didn’t their supposed skills prevent it?

Ill tell you the problem....


Fans take the result and then shape their criticism based on their own limited understanding of the game. So 12 people lose....and whatever hole the fan spots in their game is now the reason why and the reason the player didn’t do better. Never mind that the 11 others don’t have that hole and didn’t do anything either.

When it’s Nash it’s because he can’t defend, when it’s Giannis it’s because he can’t shoot, when it’s Iverson it’s because he’s selfish. But then people like Chris Paul can defend, shoot, and boost the game of his teammates and still loses even on super talented teams.

So what then?

In the end....it’s just people trying to sound informed making surface level observations that are cookie cutter as can be.

Know why people lose? Even the greats?


Because 29 teams have to. And small sample sizes make playoff series averages swing wildly night to night in ways that are often irrelevant to the outcome.

You go looking you can find a hundred examples of MVP caliber guys losing and putting up worse numbers.

Doesnt mean they weren’t that good. It means 5 games pressing the issue when you’re losing(as everyone mostly does) can hurt shooting numbers. It means you played a wicked D. It means a lot of usually easy baskets rimmed out. It means you got doubled....it means your point guard had a bad ankle and his backup doesn’t get you the ball where you like it. It means your quad was tight. It means your team got outcoached.

It means a hundred things....and none of them. Fans just have trouble with the idea that more is going on than their 15 seconds of drive by analyzing can cover so they assign the simplest explanation. That Giannis isn’t a shooter and therefore played worse when shooting is at a premium. Why the 50 people who are shooters played worse when they lost is a totally segregated issue.

Fans keep it in neat little boxes to avoid such logical problems.

Bro, tell me you did not type all of that please... Get a life this isn't college or university writing essays and ish.

[Kblaze8855]

More talking then hoping to find all the errors the speech to text makes. And I never find them all.

[Bronbron23]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1336184786617036800

He ain't lying. He's to easy to wall up at the moment. Needs either a deadly post game and/or a mid range

[light]

I supposed you would have to "damn" his playoff averages too since hes sitting between Bird and Kyrie in playoff PPG ahead of Barkley, Harden, Wade, and most of the hall. And that includes an 11ppg first year without which hed be just north of Kobe and Hakeem at a glance(without actually doing the math....about 26ppg). Obviously you cant remove his early career numbers and not others and have it be fair...just saying. He in fact does score quite a lot in the playoffs. The argument against that line of thinking is "Well does he score them when you need it to win?" which disregards that most scorers obviously arent scoring when its needed to win in the playoffs....or a lot more scorers would have won by now. Im not sure what the much more polished offensive games of Melo, Nique, Mullin, Ray Allen, Alex English, Bernard King, Oscar Robertson, Tim Hardaway, Lillard, Gervin, Kyrie, David Robinson, Webber, Tmac, and literally 5-6 dozen other hall of famers got their teams that Giannis has not already done for his. As best player of course. You put Giannis on a team with a GOAT candidate or top 5-10ish player like Kyrie, David, Oscar and others got when they won....I assume he would win as well. And I assume most of his haters wouldnt acknowledge it as proving anything.

Hes in that early to mid career purgatory spot most of the greats hit at some point before they win and people act like they didnt say all the shit that makes them look stupid in retrospect.

But fans love a pretty jumper. Even when it results in 22 of 92 points while the other team scores 110 and your team loses anyway. Hes roughly as effective as a maybe....second tier hall of famer. Not that first group of elites. But the other guys?

Hes about there. Below the Birds and Kobes and whoevers....and ahead of the Calvin Murphy, Mutombo, and other 3rd or 4th tier guys.

Hes just not gonna get the respect those top tier guys get till he wins.....and he will probably team up to do it while people get mad and ignore how many of the current elites played together to win. Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, Steph, Moses, Wilt, West, Oscar, Kareem, Magic, and Doctor J all played with someone else on that list and the list can get a lot longer if you just wanna include guys better than any Giannis teammate.

Just wait. He will end up with like....Steph, or Luka, or Anthony Davis somewhere and suddenly he will have his career validated because fans are....stupid. I remember a time when Shaq was doing like 30ppg but supposedly couldnt score either because people didnt like how he did it. Then he wins with Kobe and the same style is just so "dominant" its now impressive.

Sports are weird that way.

Yes all averages be damned.

ultimately it comes down to Giannis not being able to score when he needs to.

[Kblaze8855]

Yes all averages be damned.

ultimately it comes down to Giannis not being able to score when he needs to.

If the people you think can score when they needed to actually could.....there wouldnt be dozens of them who never win anything and 100% of them who lost way more than they won.

Most of the best scorers dont perform on command. We just kinda....feel like they do despite watching them lose all the time.

There are guys like Lillard with a lot of huge "Dame time" shots. We just ignore them getting knocked out shooting 35% or so in multiple series. Or Guys like David Robinson having like 10 and 12 points in back to back playoff games getting knocked out when people had him as the best player in the NBA. If Giannis has 10 points on 2 of 11 shooting to get eliminated when hes scoring like 30ppg I suspect he would never hear the end of it. Harden who we all agree can score....did just that. Dirk did something similar.

The results with all of them are pretty similar most of their careers. Giannis has had a fairly normal career for an MVP type. Probably better so far. Hes not failing at some exceptional rate even by MVP standards. The last 5 MVPs were him, Harden, Westbrook, and Curry the year they lost. 4 didnt make the finals and one got upset there.

Doesnt seem that MVP standard is making him look too bad. We just compare him to people who played 15 years and have a complete resume.

Hes had a pretty standard all time great career to this point even lacking the supposed ability to score on command that so many people have in theory but dont demonstrate.