Better Player: Hakeem or Duncan

[dankok8]

I've always been firmly in the Hakeem camp. Obviously Timmy is more accomplished but this is about who the better player is.

[Baller789]

I've always been firmly in the Hakeem camp. Obviously Timmy is more accomplished but this is about who the better player is.

At peak Hakeem.
Longevity its Duncan.

Overall its tough because one spent half his career as a PF.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem and its not close. Peak Hakeem is easily a Top 5 GOAT. Duncan also played more C than PF yet he is considered a PF! He was 6´11 ft and got outplayed by broken down old fat Barkley most times.

[SATAN]

Olajuwon. Shame he couldn't get more rings though.

[light]

the proof is in the pudding.

duncan is superior. and not just by a little bit.

hakeem played in weak era.

[SATAN]

Owning Shaq isn't what I'd call weak

[light]

Owning Shaq isn't what I'd call weak

owning any 21 year old player is weak sauce. thats not resume worthy. its not even worth mentioning.

[SATAN]

You're underestimating how dominant Shaq was as soon as he entered the league.

[light]

You're underestimating how dominant Shaq was as soon as he entered the league.

no im not. weak era applies to hakeem as much as mj. same reasons. and shaq didn't know what he was doing then.

[SATAN]

My contempt towards brainwashed MJ stans only goes so far, AlternativeAccount.

[JasonBailey]

Duncan is more experienced and more technical, but I think he will be better. Although both are quite professional.

[Baller789]

Hakeem and its not close. Peak Hakeem is easily a Top 5 GOAT. Duncan also played more C than PF yet he is considered a PF! He was 6´11 ft and got outplayed by broken down old fat Barkley most times.

If you just go by peak, I agree with you.
But you can't deny Duncan's positive effect on a franchise. Never missing the playoffs. Thats mighty impressive.

Look at the Spurs now.

[Reggie43]

I think Hakeem was better but you cant go wrong with picking either one.

[Bronbron23]

I've always been firmly in the Hakeem camp. Obviously Timmy is more accomplished but this is about who the better player is.

Hard to say tbh. Hakeem has a better peak but duncan has better longevity. Plus Hakeem was known to be difficult and not the greatest teammate early on in his career and duncan was great leader from jump.

Hakeem was probably the better player but duncan had the better career so gotta with duncan overall

[SouBeachTalents]

Such a predictable thread lol, everyone's gonna say Hakeem was the better player and Duncan had the better career

[k0kakw0rld]

Duncan is the better player.

[tanibanana]

Hakeem is more fun to watch, but Duncan is too better than Hakeem.
You know your team will always be a contender if you’re with Duncan.

[8Ball]

I'm taking the player with superior offensive abilities and near equal defensive abilities.

Hakeem.

Better player is Hakeem but Duncan has more championships so he's higher all time.

[Manny98]

Hot take

02-03 Duncan > 94-95 Hakeem

Duncan's peak is kinda underrated and Hakeem's peak is overrated imo

[Jasper]

I THINK BECAUSE AKEEM WAS considered a center .. his around the rim was somewhat down played ,
While Duncan's PF play around the rim was up played

I think the rings put Duncan over Akeem , but both had outstanding post moves I wish Giannis would learn.

I pick Duncan

[kawhileonard2]

Hakeem and its not close. Peak Hakeem is easily a Top 5 GOAT. Duncan also played more C than PF yet he is considered a PF! He was 6´11 ft and got outplayed by broken down old fat Barkley most times.

Hakeem couldn't even make the playoffs in his prime several years.

[k0kakw0rld]

Hakeem couldn't even make the playoffs in his prime several years.

They just be looking at individual stats. Duncan was miles better than Hakeem. Don't let the dream shake fool you.

[Hakkim90cc]

They just be looking at individual stats. Duncan was miles better than Hakeem. Don't let the dream shake fool you.

'Miles better'? Thats some bullshit.

[k0kakw0rld]

'Miles better'? Thats some bullshit.
One did more with less.

Duncan really had no physical advantage over his peers. He was simply smarter and better at the game of basketball.

[Ben Simmons]

Overall career it's Duncan. Hakeem's peak might have been higher but he wasnt at that level at the beginning or end of his career. Duncan came in great and sustained it for a long ass time

[HoopsNY]

Duncan obviously has the better career. But pound for pound Hakeem was the better offensive and defensive player, especially when you consider peak years.

I've mentioned this in previous threads that Hakeem played for the greatest dynasty that never was. The Rockets were shaping up to be the next big dynasty, but due to injuries and coke addictions, their dynasty fell apart. None of this is Hakeem's fault.

Imagine you strip the Lakers of Kareem, Nixon, McAdoo, and Wilkes? Or the Celtics of McHale, DJ, Walton, and Ainge? What would happen to those franchises? Would they even have a hint of the success that they saw through the 80s? This isn't to say that Sampson, Lucas, Wiggins, and Lloyd were the exact equivalent, but the combination of Sampson/Hakeem would have proven to be a more dominant combination than Kareem/Magic and Bird/McHale for years to come.

In addition, Hakeem gets a lot of slack for his behavior with his teammates, but things fundamentally shifted when Rudy T came on board. And a lot of that frustration was the front office's inability to make the team better and put key pieces in place.

Duncan was fortunate to walk into a situation with a team that had a lot of veteran leadership and a great coach already. So the two situations weren't exactly the same, especially when Hakeem's woes with his teammates really became an issue after the 1991 season where he was demanding a trade.

Having said that, Hakeem was the better scorer and defender. Most of Duncan's finals appearances and titles come off of the strength of Popovich's system. Hakeem's come off of him and his ability to dominate. And Hakeem really takes the cake by his playoff performances.

Playoffs

Hakeem: 26/11/3/2/3 on 53%
Duncan: 21/11/3/1/2 on 50%

Playoffs Advanced

Hakeem: 25.7 PER, 57% TS%, .189 WS/48, 6.9 BPM
Duncan: 24.3 PER, 55% TS%, .194 WS/48, 5.9 BPM

Hakeem has him beaten in playoff and advanced playoff statistics. And those who watched both play for the majority of their careers know what time it is.

[And1AllDay]

the proof is in the pudding.

duncan is superior. and not just by a little bit.

hakeem played in weak era.


this

doesnt hakeem have like 10 first round exits :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

the proof is in the pudding.

duncan is superior. and not just by a little bit.

hakeem played in weak era.

What a load of garbage. Duncan came into the league in 1997. By 2007, he had won 4 titles already. Please explain to us how the league was that much different between 1997-07 to its prior years. Keep in mind, Hakeem's peak ended at about 1997.

Furthermore, Hakeem and the Rockets beat a Shaq and Penny Magic team in 1995. How much better were the Lakers in 1999 than those Magic teams of the mid-90s? The Spurs swept that team in 1999, just as Hakeem and the Rockets swept the Magic in 1995. i would argue that that Magic team of 1995 was better than the Lakers of 1999, especially considering 1995 Penny > 1999 Kobe.

So is prime Hakeem incapable of putting up the same performances in 1999, 2003, or 2005? Give me a break.

[HoopsNY]

Amazing that prime Hakeem couldn't do what Duncan did, despite thumping the Magic with Shaq and Penny, not to mention how Hakeem led the Rockets in '86 to a gentleman's sweep of the Showtime Lakers, a 62 win team, dropping 31/11/2/2/4 on 52%.

Imaging being a Bran stan like some of these guys thinking that Hakeem couldn't prevail against teams like the:

1999 Knicks
2003 Nets
2005 Pistons
2007 Cavs

Cause apparently, Hakeem played in the "weak era." :facepalm

[Rudeboy3]

hakeem but Giannis is better than both

[Axe]

hakeem but Giannis is better than both
:lol

:facepalm

[k0kakw0rld]

hakeem but Giannis is better than both
Giannis who never reached an NBA final is surely better than Duncan and Hakeem.

You are a small man. No point in insulting you. Your existence alone is a disgrace.

[ELITEpower23]

Hakeem is 8-12
Duncan is 4-7

Big difference in tiers

[HoopsNY]

Hot take

02-03 Duncan > 94-95 Hakeem

Duncan's peak is kinda underrated and Hakeem's peak is overrated imo

Not a hot take at all. Did you watch Hakeem throughout that playoffs? You're leaving out some important pieces here. For one, Houston didn't have HCA throughout the playoffs, whereas San Antonio did.

Hakeem brought his team back from being down 3-1 against a 60 win Utah team and ultimately prevailed. Then he took his team to a game 7 win in Phoenix. Hakeem took the lowest seed ever to win the NBA finals.

In addition, let's look at the offenses that Duncan faced vs that of Hakeem in the playoffs

SA Opp ORTG 2003

Phoenix: 20th
Los Angeles: 9th
Dallas: 1st
New Jersey:18th

Houston Opp ORTG 1995

Utah: 4th
Phoenix: 3rd
San Antonio: 5th
Orlando: 1st

Let's look at their playoff production:

Duncan 2003: 25/15/5/1/3 on 53%
Hakeem 1995: 33/10/5/1/3 on 53%

Hakeem led the league in Playoff PPG in 1995. Not to mention, Hakeem was guarded by Shaq and David Robinson in the two most important rounds of the playoffs, the WCF and the finals. Who guarded Duncan in those rounds? In addition, did Hakeem have a David Robinson like player in the low block for help defense?

Hakeem > Duncan

[dawsey6]

I feel like there are certain players whose presence basketball culture really truly misses, no matter how much the game changes.

Hakeem is one of those players.
Any big (or actually, any player for that matter) that does a crafty move in the paint, automatically someone's gotta talk about the Dream Shake, even if it didn't closely resemble it.

Hakeem would have torched the league today. On offense and defense. Possibly the most skilled big man ever, fierce competitor, super athlete (quick, fast, strong, AND had hops as a 7-footer). A much as I believe Duncan is not revered as much as he should be because he didn't give you raw emotion or a signature shoe, I'd still take Hakeem over him in a heartbeat.

[dawsey6]

Giannis has no shot as being better than Duncan or Hakeem.


you see what I did there??

d-...did you see it tho??

[TheGoatest]

This is probably the perfect example of the difference between better player (Hakeem) versus better career (Duncan).

[bizil]

Hakeem is better peak/prime wise. BUT Timmy has the edge GOAT wise. Other than passing, Dream was just as good or better scoring, defending, and rebounding wise. And he's the GOAT in terms of skill on the block for centers. I don't think there's a huge gap though. And frankly, Timmy in his first 4 or so years was a BETTER PLAYER than Dream in his first four or so years. But once Dream really got rolling, he was the best ALL AROUND center ever.

[goozeman]

Duncan literally does nothing better than Hakeem on a basketball court. Hakeem was a way more explosive scorer and much better rim protector/disruptor in the paint. Hakeem was a guy capable of leading the league in rebounds, offensive rebounds, blocks and top three in league scoring, and leading the playoffs in scoring three times, including averaging 30+ in the Finals. Duncan's best year as a scorer is barely top five year for Hakeem. Duncan's second best offensive year barely ranks as a top 10 season for Hakeem. The easy answer is Hakeem, and there are more reasons than just the stats that go into it. The rule changes like enforcing hand checking and the 3-second defensive rule allowed modern bigs to play a less physical brand of basketball. Hakeem played in a much more competitive and physical era for bigs and was DOMINANT. He wasn't just a guy playing his whole career with a HOF coach and two or three other HOF's his entire career. He played with some seriously average rosters for much of his career and got the opposing teams best game plan every night and still put up crazy numbers.

[houston]

Duncan was the better player.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem was better than Duncan at everything but Passing and Ballhandling. Hakeem was the more lethal scorer while guarded by real centers, better shooter, better footwork, better post player, better rebounder, better overall defender, better shot blocker, better rim protector and some forget; better floor defender: Hakeem was the best floor defender for centers and stealer only comparable guy was prime and peak David Robinson.

[highwhey]

Giannis has no shot as being better than Duncan or Hakeem.


you see what I did there??

d-...did you see it tho??

:oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

We keep hearing from multiple posters that Duncan was a better player. Based on what exactly? And who was Duncan's opposition at his position when doing it that matched the likes of Kareem, Shaq, Eaton, Ewing, Robinson, Parish, etc?

In Duncan's first matchup against KG, he got outplayed. Duncan put up 19/11/3 on 46%. KG put up 22/12/4 on 44%. In game 4 of that series, KG went for 20/16/6 whereas Duncan went 16/8/0.

Who are these elite defensive PFs that Duncan always dominated in peak/prime? He had a great series in 2001 against KG and Malone in 1998, but Malone still outplayed him narrowly.

Now go look at what Hakeem did and against elite centers/defensive centers. It's not even close.

In Hakeem's rookie season he took it to Mark Eaton in the playoffs. Eaton was not only All-Defensive 1st team but also the DPOY. Look at what he did against guys like Kareem, Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq. Hakeem was a big game player. You just needed to surround him with the right pieces.

Duncan walked into a great situation with a veteran team that had great coaching. The Spurs were already a 60 win team in years past without him. In 1997 they won just 20 games because of Robinson's injury, but that team was always among the league leaders in wins.

Houston climbed from a 29 win team to a 48 win team with the addition Akeem. And if nearly his entire starting lineup and sixth man didn't succumb to career ending injuries and being banned by the NBA due to cocaine addiction, we would be talking about Hakeem stacking up 5-6 championships and possibly 7-8 finals appearances. How many players were legit quadruple-double threats in NBA history? Hakeem was one of them.

Literally no evidence is given or any analysis based on context, just claims of Duncan being better. We've heard some really outlandish claims like, "his era sucked." You literally can't make this stuff up.

[highwhey]

Not a hot take at all. Did you watch Hakeem throughout that playoffs? You're leaving out some important pieces here. For one, Houston didn't have HCA throughout the playoffs, whereas San Antonio did.

Hakeem brought his team back from being down 3-1 against a 60 win Utah team and ultimately prevailed. Then he took his team to a game 7 win in Phoenix. Hakeem took the lowest seed ever to win the NBA finals.

In addition, let's look at the offenses that Duncan faced vs that of Hakeem in the playoffs

SA Opp ORTG 2003

Phoenix: 20th
Los Angeles: 9th
Dallas: 1st
New Jersey:18th

Houston Opp ORTG 1995

Utah: 4th
Phoenix: 3rd
San Antonio: 5th
Orlando: 1st

Let's look at their playoff production:

Duncan 2003: 25/15/5/1/3 on 53%
Hakeem 1995: 33/10/5/1/3 on 53%

Hakeem led the league in Playoff PPG in 1995. Not to mention, Hakeem was guarded by Shaq and David Robinson in the two most important rounds of the playoffs, the WCF and the finals. Who guarded Duncan in those rounds? In addition, did Hakeem have a David Robinson like player in the low block for help defense?

Hakeem > Duncan
i always felt like Hakeem was the better player, but Duncan had the better overall career due to circumstances. He's very lucky to have been drafted by the Spurs.

[HoopsNY]

i always felt like Hakeem was the better player, but Duncan had the better overall career due to circumstances. He's very lucky to have been drafted by the Spurs.

And that's the best way to summarize this. One player had an unfortunate set of circumstances, the other one was gifted his. You can't just compare the two without accounting for that. This doesn't diminish from Duncan's accomplishments, but it does it put things into perspective when you compare the two players or players of a similar caliber.

[HoopsNY]

Hakeem was better than Duncan at everything but Passing and Ballhandling. Hakeem was the more lethal scorer while guarded by real centers, better shooter, better footwork, better post player, better rebounder, better overall defender, better shot blocker, better rim protector and some forget; better floor defender: Hakeem was the best floor defender for centers and stealer only comparable guy was prime and peak David Robinson.

Was he really a better passer and ballhandler though? I recall Hakeem routinely taking the ball at the top of the key, dribbling, crossover, dream-shake, and then score. Here is an example. Notice what Matt Guokas says in the clip, "there's nothing that he can't do." And this was in the playoffs keep in mind. Was Duncan routinely doing moves like that from the top of the key or even mid-range? (Watch from 10:37)


https://youtu.be/WxaJDHg12jc?t=637

[highwhey]

And that's the best way to summarize this. One player had an unfortunate set of circumstances, the other one was gifted his. You can't just compare the two without accounting for that. This doesn't diminish from Duncan's accomplishments, but it does it put things into perspective when you compare the two players or players of a similar caliber.

for sure, Duncan is still a all time great and great in his own respect, it's a notion of respect to even be in the same conversation as Hakeem, but we know Hakeem was dealt a shitty card compared to Duncan. Despite that, he managed to win 2 chips and did it in a very dominant fashion. Very impressive.

[Baller789]

Well at least those two don't go team hopping or colluding like todays overly sensitive players.

[philcoven]

This is probably the perfect example of the difference between better player (Hakeem) versus better career (Duncan).

Duncan may have had it easier at the start of his career compared to Hakeem, with David Robinson watching his back and helping him play better as the other half of the Twin towers. On the other hand, Hakeen was the one-man twin tower and of course, he came up tops against Robinson's Spurs in the '95 finals.

[Hey Yo]

What a load of garbage. Duncan came into the league in 1997. By 2007, he had won 4 titles already. Please explain to us how the league was that much different between 1997-07 to its prior years. Keep in mind, Hakeem's peak ended at about 1997.

Furthermore, Hakeem and the Rockets beat a Shaq and Penny Magic team in 1995. How much better were the Lakers in 1999 than those Magic teams of the mid-90s? The Spurs swept that team in 1999, just as Hakeem and the Rockets swept the Magic in 1995. i would argue that that Magic team of 1995 was better than the Lakers of 1999, especially considering 1995 Penny > 1999 Kobe.

So is prime Hakeem incapable of putting up the same performances in 1999, 2003, or 2005? Give me a break.
1998 was Duncan's rookie year.

[Hey Yo]

Amazing that prime Hakeem couldn't do what Duncan did, despite thumping the Magic with Shaq and Penny, not to mention how Hakeem led the Rockets in '86 to a gentleman's sweep of the Showtime Lakers, a 62 win team, dropping 31/11/2/2/4 on 52%.

Imaging being a Bran stan like some of these guys thinking that Hakeem couldn't prevail against teams like the:

1999 Knicks
2003 Nets
2005 Pistons
2007 Cavs

Cause apparently, Hakeem played in the "weak era." :facepalm
Duncan got shutdown by the combo of Ilgauskas and Varejao in the Finals to the tune of shooting 44% from the filed and a TS% of .483

[Hey Yo]

Well at least those two don't go team hopping or colluding like todays overly sensitive players.
They also didn't quit the league in their prime due to severe lack of mental toughness.

[HoopsNY]

1998 was Duncan's rookie year.

He was drafted in 1997 and played his first game in 1997. When I mentioned 1997, I mentioned it as in 1997-98.


Duncan got shutdown by the combo of Ilgauskas and Varejao in the Finals to the tune of shooting 44% from the filed and a TS% of .483

And yet people are here acting like Hakeem is the one who played against "weak" players due to era? Laughable.

[Hey Yo]

He was drafted in 1997 and played his first game in 1997. When I mentioned 1997, I mentioned it as in 1997-98.
Technically yes, but when you say he came into the league in 97, that insinuates that the 1997 season was his rookie year.

[Baller789]

They also didn't quit the league in their prime due to severe lack of mental toughness.

Triggered :roll:

[PP34Deuce]

Honestly, Hakeem was a better player. more elite scorer on better efficiency and while Duncan was the more consistently great player, Hakeem was a beast.

[bizil]

We all know Duncan is the GOAT PF. And peak-prime wise, many would say the same. Main reason why is because he brought he dominant interior 7 foot center's skillset set to the 4. That had never been seen before. Sampson as a 7'4 PF wasn't a dominant interior presence on the level of Timmy. The fact that he was a 7'4 PF says it all. He was so finesse that Hakeem was the center instead of him.

BUT when you compare Duncan to the great centers, his skillset and dominance doesn't standout as much. ON a peak-prime level, he's still top 5 caliber in comparison to the centers. I would take Cap, Dream, Wilt, and Shaq over him. But thing is u still have Moses, David, and Ewing there. While I would take Timmy over Ewing, it's not a layup you would take him over David or Moses.

[dankok8]

Duncan at his peak was a better passer than Hakeem. Also probably a better rebounder because when Hakeem put it all together in the mid 90's he wasn't a dominant rebounder anymore. I'll give Timmy that. Overall as a player though, Hakeem was probably more dominant. He scored a lot more and was even a bit more impactful defensively due to his superior shot-blocking and overall athleticism. Some plays that Hakeem made Duncan simply couldn't make.

However I do see a case for Duncan as the better player. It's not so clear-cut. Analyzing a lot of impact stats, Duncan in 2003 was historically great. It can be argued as one of the GOAT seasons + playoffs.

[tontoz]

For the record their scoring efficiency was the same over their careers, literally. Both had a TS of 55% in the regular season.

Hakeem was slightly more efficient in the playoffs.

[Jailblazers7]

I'd take Timmy. Close comparison in terms of talent & production but I'd take Tim's ability to set a lead a team's culture. It's not an accident that Duncan's team were consistent title contenders. I feel like his ability to be the bedrock of a franchise is underrated in these kind of comparisons.

[HoopsNY]

Duncan at his peak was a better passer than Hakeem. Also probably a better rebounder because when Hakeem put it all together in the mid 90's he wasn't a dominant rebounder anymore. I'll give Timmy that. Overall as a player though, Hakeem was probably more dominant. He scored a lot more and was even a bit more impactful defensively due to his superior shot-blocking and overall athleticism. Some plays that Hakeem made Duncan simply couldn't make.

However I do see a case for Duncan as the better player. It's not so clear-cut. Analyzing a lot of impact stats, Duncan in 2003 was historically great. It can be argued as one of the GOAT seasons + playoffs.

It depends on how you're looking at it. Let's look at some spreads. Hakeem's real peak is between 1989-96 so let's start there:

Hakeem '89-96: 12.5 Rbpg
Duncan '99-09: 11.7 Rbpg

Let's try a different spread.

Hakeem '85-'96: 12.2 Rbpg
Duncan '98-09:11.7 Rbpg

How about elite rebounding performances?

15+ Career Rebound Games

Hakeem: 258
Duncan: 251

20+ Rebound Games

Hakeem: 48
Duncan: 26

25+ Rebound Games

Hakeem: 5
Duncan: 3

Rebounding Titles

Hakeem: 2
Duncan: 0

And all of this is considered given that Duncan played in more than 200 more games than Hakeem, and Hakeem slightly out-rebounded him career-wise 11.1 to 10.8.

And we already compared Duncan's 2003 to Hakeem's 1995 season, for example.

[HoopsNY]

I'd take Timmy. Close comparison in terms of talent & production but I'd take Tim's ability to set a lead a team's culture. It's not an accident that Duncan's team were consistent title contenders. I feel like his ability to be the bedrock of a franchise is underrated in these kind of comparisons.

Only Hakeem's team was taken away from him and Duncan was gifted a perfect situation. How does that not count for anything? This doesn't diminish from Duncan's ability or being a leader, but it certainly does put some much needed context into the discussion.

David Robinson was in injured in 1997 and the Spurs only won 20 games. But with a healthy Elliott and Robinson, the Spurs were a force. Just look at the previous 3 seasons.

1994: 55 wins
1995: 62 wins
1996: 59 wins

The Rockets added Ralph Sampson and went from a 14 win team to a 29 win team. They added Akeem and became a 48 win team. If that team continues without losing its cast, they become a thriving franchise for years to come. And this was something repeated in the '80s.

[Jailblazers7]

Only Hakeem's team was taken away from him and Duncan was gifted a perfect situation. How does that not count for anything? This doesn't diminish from Duncan's ability or being a leader, but it certainly does put some much needed context into the discussion.

David Robinson was in injured in 1997 and the Spurs only won 20 games. But with a healthy Elliott and Robinson, the Spurs were a force. Just look at the previous 3 seasons.

1994: 55 wins
1995: 62 wins
1996: 59 wins

The Rockets added Ralph Sampson and went from a 14 win team to a 29 win team. They added Akeem and became a 48 win team. If that team continues without losing its cast, they become a thriving franchise for years to come. And this was something repeated in the '80s.

That's fair to point out that Hakeem has a major what if in his trajectory but Duncan is way more than a perfect situation. He won championships in essentially 3 different generations with different supporting casts. Duncan was able to consistently give his team exactly what it needed to be a title contender which takes talent, leadership, and humility. No knock on Hakeem but I'd take Duncan as the centerpiece of my team if I wanna win rings. Hakeem stats are crazy but Duncan has every every intangible quality you'd ever want in a player.

[HoopsNY]

That's fair to point out that Hakeem has a major what if in his trajectory but Duncan is way more than a perfect situation. He won championships in essentially 3 different generations with different supporting casts. Duncan was able to consistently give his team exactly what it needed to be a title contender which takes talent, leadership, and humility. No knock on Hakeem but I'd take Duncan as the centerpiece of my team if I wanna win rings. Hakeem stats are crazy but Duncan has every every intangible quality you'd ever want in a player.

This would make sense if Hakeem ended up with a career like that of Karl Malone or Charles Barkley. Neither of those guys had their supporting casts decimated, and none of those players won a championship, let alone two. Hakeem managed to lose his entire supporting cast, make three NBA finals, and win 2 of them.

I think that should could for his resiliency, and the assumption that he would have done more if gifted Duncan's situation is not only a fair one, but more than likely. This doesn't even factor in that Hakeem was simply a better player than Duncan. More dominant on the offensive and defensive ends, and had a better skillset.

I can't fault people for picking Duncan. I understand why. But I can't help but feel that most people do so without considering the entire story.

[Gudo]

hakeem is the better individual player. i think the value of duncan lies in his ability to fit his game to what the team needs and that allows for everyone to thrive.

[Carbine]

I think they're similar players overall in prime. Duncan's value lies in breaking film down, appreciating his help defensive rotations, shot contests that don't result in a block but are just as effective, for example.

Hakeem obviously did these things as well, buy IMO Duncan was more consistent with them.

The things Hakeem did better stood out much more - the fancy footwork and ball fakes, the blocks, the graceful athletic ability.

I got no problem with anyone taking Hakeem over Duncan or the other way around. They're at the same table and that's good enough.

[HoopsNY]

I think they're similar players overall in prime. Duncan's value lies in breaking film down, appreciating his help defensive rotations, shot contests that don't result in a block but are just as effective, for example.

Hakeem obviously did these things as well, buy IMO Duncan was more consistent with them.

The things Hakeem did better stood out much more - the fancy footwork and ball fakes, the blocks, the graceful athletic ability.

I got no problem with anyone taking Hakeem over Duncan or the other way around. They're at the same table and that's good enough.

What Hakeem did better was just that - it was better. You're mentioning Duncan contesting shots that don't result in blocks, sure, I agree with this. But how about when you get the offense to not attempt a shot or a drive at all? THAT was Hakeem.

I recall watching the 1995 finals when Orlando players did almost an about face when they saw Hakeem in the lane. There is also defensive impact and Hakeem brought that to the table like no other. He was just unreal.

I also feel like what Hakeem was able to do against elite opposition stands for something, especially when Duncan's opposition wasn't so elite. I mentioned his opponents in the finals vs that of Hakeem's (as well as the WCF). That should count for something. I mean, the Knicks, the Nets, the Pistons, the Cavs?

[Carbine]

Duncan had to go against a Prime Shaq for most of his 20s in the west so while the finals competition wasn't like what Hakeem faced on a matchup point or view, that Pistons team defense was better than anything Hakeem faced in a high leverage playoff situation.

Duncan went against Dirk a bunch. Battles with KG when KG. He had stiff competition in the west, it was a gauntlet quite honestly. Prime Amare was an amazing offensive finisher, paired with Nash is was deadly. Lots of battles throughout his career. I remember people asking if Prime Amare was as good an offensive player as Prime Shaq, that's how good Amare was playing back then.

[Charlie Sheen]

Giannis has no shot as being better than Duncan or Hakeem.


you see what I did there??

d-...did you see it tho??

:lol

[FKAri]

Theoretically, Hakeem. Practically, Duncan.

Hakeem's mental maturity lagged behind his physical one. If he had "figured it out" earlier he had a good shot at being a better player imo. Duncan figured it out much earlier and was close to a complete package very early on and then sustained it as he declined physically. Both aged well in their careers but Hakeem's was due to his shooting ability whereas Duncan could still defend at a high level in his late years despite playing in a more athletically demanding defensive era for big men.

[rmt]

hakeem is the better individual player. i think the value of duncan lies in his ability to fit his game to what the team needs and that allows for everyone to thrive.

Understated is Duncan's ability to switch between 2 positions easily. In a small market like SA and an era when they tried not to go into luxury tax territory, Duncan played PF with the likes of DRob, Rose, Rasho, Blair, Nazr, Oberto, Thomas, Splitter and also Center with Horry, McDyess, Bonner, Diaw, Aldridge allowing the Spurs great roster/player/financial flexibility - and giving the team exactly what it needed when it needed - he just wanted to win.

[houston]

Duncan had to go against a Prime Shaq for most of his 20s in the west so while the finals competition wasn't like what Hakeem faced on a matchup point or view, that Pistons team defense was better than anything Hakeem faced in a high leverage playoff situation.

Duncan went against Dirk a bunch. Battles with KG when KG. He had stiff competition in the west, it was a gauntlet quite honestly. Prime Amare was an amazing offensive finisher, paired with Nash is was deadly. Lots of battles throughout his career. I remember people asking if Prime Amare was as good an offensive player as Prime Shaq, that's how good Amare was playing back then.

This true right here

[Nowitness]

Duncan's 03 team is as bad as any team Hakeem ever played on. So how did Duncan take that time to a title whilst Hakeem got bounced in the first round 6 times?

Hakeem had amazing talent, but lacked consistency and killer instincts.

Dude won 2 titles with prime Clyde Drexler, Scott Pippen, Charles Barkley, Ralph Sampson and Vince Carter.

Duncan was the greatest PF ever by his 6th season, Hakeem to this day isn't a top 5 C (Kareem, Shaq, Russell, Moses, Wilt).

[Charlie Sheen]

Well at least those two don't go team hopping or colluding like todays overly sensitive players.

If you believe what Grant Hill says, the only reason Timmy didn't form a superteam in Orlando was because of Doc River's hurting his wife's feelings...


In 2000, the Orlando Magic were set to assemble their own big three by adding Grant Hill, Tim Duncan and Tracy McGrady. One rule changed it all.

With Hill on the show, Rachel Nichols asked him about the infamous meeting. Hill said he was there and you could feel the room change when Rivers denied the request to allow wives and girlfriends on the team plane:
https://orlandomagicdaily.com/2018/02/18/grant-hill-confirms-doc-rivers-rule-helped-cost-orlando-magic-tim-duncan/

[HoopsNY]

Duncan had to go against a Prime Shaq for most of his 20s in the west so while the finals competition wasn't like what Hakeem faced on a matchup point or view, that Pistons team defense was better than anything Hakeem faced in a high leverage playoff situation.

Duncan went against Dirk a bunch. Battles with KG when KG. He had stiff competition in the west, it was a gauntlet quite honestly. Prime Amare was an amazing offensive finisher, paired with Nash is was deadly. Lots of battles throughout his career. I remember people asking if Prime Amare was as good an offensive player as Prime Shaq, that's how good Amare was playing back then.

Not entirely true. For one, Shaq wasn't Duncan's defensive assignment for those series. So it wasn't really a "battle" as you made it out to be. In addition, Duncan got outplayed against KG in their first matchup in 1999, the season Duncan won his first title and FMVP.

Dirk is a tough defensive matchup, but Dirk doesn't offer any defensive ability. Amare lit up Duncan for 37 PPG in their first series, but he too was not the defensive specimen that guys that Hakeem faced in the playoffs.

So while these battles are more team oriented, it doesn't speak to who Duncan faced off individually in the WCF and Finals. I honestly don't understand why people from that era aren't seeing this as it's rather obvious.

[HoopsNY]

Duncan's 03 team is as bad as any team Hakeem ever played on. So how did Duncan take that time to a title whilst Hakeem got bounced in the first round 6 times?

Hakeem had amazing talent, but lacked consistency and killer instincts.

Dude won 2 titles with prime Clyde Drexler, Scott Pippen, Charles Barkley, Ralph Sampson and Vince Carter.

Duncan was the greatest PF ever by his 6th season, Hakeem to this day isn't a top 5 C (Kareem, Shaq, Russell, Moses, Wilt).

Wait so Duncan gets credit for his finals run and ultimate championship in 2003, but Hakeem doesn't get the same glorification for his title run in 1994? How do you conveniently ignore that? If anything, Hakeem's run in 1994 was more impressive. Hakeem won MVP, Finals MVP, AND DPOY. How many players in NBA history have done that?

You're bringing up Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen. Pippen joined the Rockets in 1999 at the age of 33 after his bad back where Pippen could no longer elevate or move with the same lateral quickness. You're making it out to seem like Hakeem got a peak or prime Pippen here.

They added Barkley when he was also over the hill and damn near 300 lbs. Barkley was injury prone and could barely move by 1997. Not to mention, Barkley was already 33 years old, missed 30 games that season, and in the series against Utah in the WCF scored 16 points on 43%. Hakeem went for 27/9 that series on damn near 60%

Duncan enjoyed the peak and primes of both Manu and Parker. While they're not on the level of prime/peak Barkley/Pippen, they were also better a number of years than those guys ever were with Hakeem. I honestly don't see how you could bring those guys up knowing Hakeem got them at the age of 33+, injured, and overweight.

Hakeem is greater than all of those centers you mentioned. The only one who gives him a run for his money is Kareem.

You mentioned Moses Malone. Moses has 1 NBA title which he got due to forming a super-team in Philadelphia. The Sixers were already a 58 win team that made it to the NBA finals without Moses just the year prior. They added Moses and it's somehow a shocker that they won the title?

That '83 team is one of the greatest teams of all time. Not only did they have Moses, but they had former MVP Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Maurice Cheeks, and defensive juggernaut Bobby Jones. Put a cast like that around Hakeem and what does he do? C'mon man.

And excuse me if I'm not so thrilled about Bill Russell. He did what he did in a much smaller league, but joined a playoff team with the league's MVP. So what happens if you pair Hakeem with the likes of Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson? The Celtics were a stacked roster with guys like Havlicek, Jones, Sharman, and Cousy.

I'm beginning to feel like Hakeem is SEVERELY underrated here.

[Carbine]

Hes unanimously regarded as a top 8-10 player with a couple spot variation on almost everyone lists.

He's not in the GOAT convo and he's not outside the top 10ish. Whats underrated about that? Should he be in the goat convo?

[dankok8]

^ HoopsNY great post!!

I have vouched for Moses many times and find him underrated but he's nowhere near Hakeem as an overall player. Moses was a destroyer on the offensive boards which brings major value to just about any team but outside of that he couldn't touch Hakeem's game... not his post game, not his face up game, not his shooting, not his passing and not his defense in any way shape or form.

Honestly for people who care about portability Hakeem really is getting underrated. I think he's one player you can transport to any era in league history and he would absolutely dominate. And given his terrible team circumstances that no other pantheon player had to endure, I'm honestly not sure he's not one of the top 5 players ever to play basketball. I'm not saying he is but I'm not sure he isn't. He's one of the few players in league history that was a legitimate MVP caliber on both sides of the floor...

[HoopsNY]

Hes unanimously regarded as a top 8-10 player with a couple spot variation on almost everyone lists.

He's not in the GOAT convo and he's not outside the top 10ish. Whats underrated about that? Should he be in the goat convo?

My comments were for Nowitness really. I think Hakeem deserves more recognition and should be higher, honestly. If not for anything, then he should be ranked higher than Duncan.

[HoopsNY]

^ HoopsNY great post!!

I have vouched for Moses many times and find him underrated but he's nowhere near Hakeem as an overall player. Moses was a destroyer on the offensive boards which brings major value to just about any team but outside of that he couldn't touch Hakeem's game... not his post game, not his face up game, not his shooting, not his passing and not his defense in any way shape or form.

Honestly for people who care about portability Hakeem really is getting underrated. I think he's one player you can transport to any era in league history and he would absolutely dominate. And given his terrible team circumstances that no other pantheon player had to endure, I'm honestly not sure he's not one of the top 5 players ever to play basketball. I'm not saying he is but I'm not sure he isn't. He's one of the few players in league history that was a legitimate MVP caliber on both sides of the floor...

Spot on