Lebron James by the stats only - no subjective opinion allowed

[3ball]

* 4/10 against Finals teams

* no all-defense for 7 straight years of prime

* no MVP for 7 straight years of prime

* Won the East with only 22/6/5 in the 14' ECF (stacked team, weak conference)

* Historic choke in 2011 and record losses in 14' and 18' - all with high seeds

* 30% on jumpers in the 4th quarter of 2009 ECF and lost 3 fourth quarter leads (disappeared in critical Game 4 OT while Dwight dominated)

* Lost 2-1 leads as the favorite in the 10' ECSF and 11' Finals

* 22 on 36% in the 2007 Finals (worst-ever for #1 option in the Finals)

* 18 ppg in 2011 Finals

* the only player in history that lost as the favorite for 2 years in a row with 60-win, 1 seeds

* lost as the favorite from 2009-2011

* lost to 1-star teams twice (09', 11')

* lost 6 times with good teams (1 or 2 seed)

* played the "pippen" role - outscored by teammates on 2 playoff runs (11', 20') and many series

* Never beat a Finals team or good team (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 17 years)

* avoids contested jumpers and clutch - 94% of jumpers are uncontested

* fake efficiency - his at-rim efficiency hides weak jumpshooting efficiency and inferior per possession efficiency (ball control/turnovers)

* no playoff runs with less than 3 TO's per game (edit: 09')

* 1 Finals run like AI/Dwight before the "decision" (1-trick pony before stacking the deck)

* 2010 Wade had a 9.2 BPM and Kobe 4.4, so Lebron teamed up with a bigger producer than 10' Kobe, but was a perennial loser/underdog (Finals loser or underdog for 3 of 4 years after teaming up with Kobe/Pau 2)

* Net negative in the 2013 Finals (negative net rating - Heat lost with him on the floor) - 16 on 39% thru 3 games and 23 on 43% thru 6 was insufficient to win, therefore needing Ray Allen to force Game 7

* 3 of his sidekicks (AD, Wade, Kyrie) have higher BPM, PER, WS/48, PPG and efficiency than Pippen.. Love also exceeds pippen in these areas except a near tie in BPM.. (pippen's peak VORP ranks 96th all-time, or below Love, AD, or Wade's)

* Lebron's defensive assignment (the opposing SF) won FMVP four times

* Lebron was the only Heat or Cav player that allowed his defensive assignment to average over 2 points above their regular season averages in the 14', 15', 17', or 18' Finals - so only lebron was playing bad defense - Iggy, Kawhi, and KD averaged 5-10 points above their RS averages

* fields low ball movement or low assist teams (his teams rank 14th in assists on average, while champions rank 7th) - massive deficits in team assists is the common thread in his Finals losses

* turns teammates into play-finishers - reduces their assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing), aka 4/10 brand of basketball/results

* For most of Lebron's career, he started at SF but then became a 2nd point guard on the floor.. But unfortunately, teammates have less hold-time and assists in 2-PG lineups than traditional 1-PG lineups.. Lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level. Ultimately, Lebron's reduction of teammate assists via 2-PG lineups and personally turning a highly-assisted position (SF) into a low-assisted one (PG) reduces the assist capacity of the team.

* Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team but missed the playoffs in 04' and 05' - he made the 06' Playoffs by adding a 22/5/5 all-defender, the future COY, and a top 5 defense.

* Lebron only made the playoffs with developed, 50-win high seeds and never had to carry his worst, lottery teams in the playoffs - his 30 to 40 win teams missed the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19', thereby avoiding the 8 vs 1 matchup against the champion Pistons or Warriors.. So his record with low seeds is unknown, but his 2 seeds were 3-16 in 07', 11', 14', and 17', including a record choke, 2 record losses and a sweep.

[Gray GOAT]

1-9

[SouBeachTalents]

1-9

[Axe]

No pip?

[Baller789]

3ball: posts stats about Lebron
Lebrontards: Jordan, Jordan, Jordan, waaaah!!!
:roll:
Rinse, repeat.

[3ball]

1-9


So Jordan is bad for needing an 8-point rookie to make the 2nd Round, but it's okay for lebron to miss the 05' playoffs with the East all-star center, and need further additions make it in 06' (the coy and a 22/5/5 all-defender)??

Or it's bad for Jordan to go 1-9 with 8 seeds, but it's okay for lebron to go 3-16 with 2 seeds, including the goat choke, a sweep and the record loss

2ND OPTION EXAMPLE:

87' bulls (oakley) < 05' Cavs (all-star zydrunas)... but the 87' bulls randomly made the 8 seed and were forced to face the goat Celtics, while the 05' Cavs avoided the champion Pistons as the 9 seed.... again, lebron only made the playoffs with high seeds and didn't have to carry his worst teams as low seeds like Jordan did

[SATAN]

https://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/370/053/0d0.jpg

[3ball]

https://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/370/053/0d0.jpg

Lebron was a 1-trick pony before the "decision", with only 1 Finals run like Iverson, Dwight, and Kidd - then his collusions with Wade, AD, and Kyrie elevated him to champion..

So this idea that lebron brings guys titles and therefore "makes guys better" is false - teaming up doesn't equal "making guys better" - it's just stacking the deck and talent-based winning.... virtually none of his primary teammates improved statistically while alongside him because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team--hopping, talent-based winning)..

Talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record vs Mavs, Spurs and Warriors.. ultimately, his kryptonite is his organic chemistry and ball movement.. he can't do organic, so he loses to it..

[Baller789]

Apparently, Lebron stans can't follow simple instructions.

:facepalm

[SATAN]

Lebron was a 1-trick pony before the "decision", with only 1 Finals run like Iverson, Dwight, and Kidd - then his collusions with Wade, AD, and Kyrie elevated him to champion..

So this idea that lebron brings guys titles and therefore "makes guys better" is false - teaming up doesn't equal "making guys better" - it's just stacking the deck and talent-based winning.... virtually none of his primary teammates improved statistically while alongside him because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team--hopping, talent-based winning)..

Talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record vs Mavs, Spurs and Warriors.. ultimately, his kryptonite is his organic chemistry and ball movement.. he can't do organic, so he loses to it..

1-9

[SouBeachTalents]

So Jordan is bad for needing an 8-point rookie to make the 2nd Round, but it's okay for lebron to miss the 05' playoffs with the East all-star center, and need further additions make it in 06' (the coy and a 22/5/5 all-defender)??

Or it's bad for Jordan to go 1-9 with 8 seeds, but it's okay for lebron to go 3-16 with 2 seeds, including the goat choke, a sweep and the record loss

2ND OPTION EXAMPLE:

87' bulls (oakley) < 05' Cavs (all-star zydrunas)... but the 87' bulls randomly made the 8 seed and were forced to face the goat Celtics, while the 05' Cavs avoided the champion Pistons as the 9 seed.... again, lebron only made the playoffs with high seeds and didn't have to carry his worst teams as low seeds like Jordan did
1-9

[plowking]

Here are some facts.

Lebron since winning a title in 11-12 in the playoffs: 29.2/9.4/7.3/1.7/0.9 on 52/34/74 shooting.
Lebron in those 168 games: 29.7 PER, .259 winshares/48.


MJ since winning his first title until his last playoff run: 32.5/6.2/5.3 on 48/34/82 shooting.
MJ in those 126 games: 28.1 PER and .258 winshares/48.


When they both became winners, LeBron did more, played better, and carried more of a load for his team.

These are objective facts based on statistics and advanced statistics. Bron was simply a better player in his prime, that did more, than MJ was.

[3ball]

.
More stats:


TIME OF POSSESSION

Lebron 17' Finals... 9.0 min... underperforming team offense
Durant 17' Finals... 4.5 min... possibly the goat team offense

[SATAN]

.
More stats:


TIME OF POSSESSION

Lebron 17' Finals... 9.0 min... underperforming team offense
Durant 17' Finals... 4.5 min... possibly the goat team offense

You might be the dumbest person I've ever encountered.

[Kblaze8855]

Gotta say I find myself agreeing for the most part but if you have a moment to spare between the many beautiful women enamored with your 980 or so topics on this subject I hoped you might clear something up for me while stats are the issue.....




We all know Jordan scored a lot. Most per game ever in fact. But might he score a little less in today’s league that isn’t so overflowing with guys like Kelly Tripuka?


You know Kelly I’m sure. Good scorer when given enough volume. Made noise scoring ineffective but high totals running with those 120ppg pre bad boy pistons being fed by Isiah. Let him shoot a lot and not play D and he’s happy.




My issue is...why was he and so many like him....always guarding an athlete of Jordan’s caliber? And doing so in a fashion that suggested they either didn’t have film study or didn’t pay attention to it. They were everywhere in the 80s. There were entire teams of Kelly Tripuka with maybe one guy to break up the trend. Like this


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141806310350.jpeg




Aside from Kelly himself you have a 5’2” 130 pound Muggsy and a 6’2” already balding drug addict who eventually got caught shoplifting from an Apple store to feed his habit. Greg Kite who’s career highlight was being called “Scrappy” for getting 9 rebounds off the bench vs the Lakers one time and past his prime Kurt Rambis who even in his prime was most famous for getting clotheslined by Kevin Mchale.


With that lineup who can you put on an athlete of MJs caliber? It’s Kelly, the thieving junkie, or the one guy with some defense to him....Muggsy.


Some assume that famous pic of him guarded by Bogues was like...a weird switch or something. No. He was the assigned defender. This is off the tip:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FarawayAgreeableImago-size_restricted.gif




Muggsy runs to his assignment. He’s who has MJ.


And he did his best....on the perimeter at least. He didn’t have the size to even bother once his man was in the paint. Notice MJ getting the easy dump in and uncontested layup before giving Muggsy a little “You’ll get me next time little fella” tap:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScentedFaithfulKilldeer-size_restricted.gif




MJ wouldn’t traditionally even give the guy a chance and try to take him off the dribble. Immediately call for the clear out to bully the little guy.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImpishWeightyArabianwildcat-size_restricted.gif



And Muggsy actually gets a clean strip! So why the whistle? An illegal D was called because the Hornets had the audacity to have a help defender in position to support Muggsy.


So Jordan literally got a technical free throw because the other team tried to defend him well despite the mismatch.

[Axe]

Gotta say I find myself agreeing for the most part but if you have a moment to spare between the many beautiful women enamored with your 980 or so topics on this subject I hoped you might clear something up for me while stats are the issue.....




We all know Jordan scored a lot. Most per game ever in fact. But might he score a little less in today’s league that isn’t so overflowing with guys like Kelly Tripuka?


You know Kelly I’m sure. Good scorer when given enough volume. Made noise scoring ineffective but high totals running with those 120ppg pre bad boy pistons being fed by Isiah. Let him shoot a lot and not play D and he’s happy.




My issue is...why was he and so many like him....always guarding an athlete of Jordan’s caliber? And doing so in a fashion that suggested they either didn’t have film study or didn’t pay attention to it. They were everywhere in the 80s. There were entire teams of Kelly Tripuka with maybe one guy to break up the trend. Like this


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141806310350.jpeg




Aside from Kelly himself you have a 5’2” 130 pound Muggsy and a 6’2” already balding drug addict who eventually got caught shoplifting from an Apple store to feed his habit. Greg Kite who’s career highlight was being called “Scrappy” for getting 9 rebounds off the bench vs the Lakers one time and past his prime Kurt Rambis who even in his prime was most famous for getting clotheslined by Kevin Mchale.


With that lineup who can you put on an athlete of MJs caliber? It’s Kelly, the thieving junkie, or the one guy with some defense to him....Muggsy.


Some assume that famous pic of him guarded by Bogues was like...a weird switch or something. No. He was the assigned defender. This is off the tip:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FarawayAgreeableImago-size_restricted.gif




Muggsy runs to his assignment. He’s who has MJ.


And he did his best....on the perimeter at least. He didn’t have the size to even bother once his man was in the paint. Notice MJ getting the easy dump in and uncontested layup before giving Muggsy a little “You’ll get me next time little fella” tap:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScentedFaithfulKilldeer-size_restricted.gif




MJ wouldn’t traditionally even give the guy a chance and try to take him off the dribble. Immediately call for the clear out to bully the little guy.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImpishWeightyArabianwildcat-size_restricted.gif



And Muggsy actually gets a clean strip! So why the whistle? An illegal D was called because the Hornets had the audacity to have a help defender in position to support Muggsy.


So Jordan literally got a technical free throw because the other team tried to defend him well despite the mismatch.
:bowdown:

[scuzzy]

Gotta say I find myself agreeing for the most part but if you have a moment to spare between the many beautiful women enamored with your 980 or so topics on this subject I hoped you might clear something up for me while stats are the issue.....




We all know Jordan scored a lot. Most per game ever in fact. But might he score a little less in today’s league that isn’t so overflowing with guys like Kelly Tripuka?


You know Kelly I’m sure. Good scorer when given enough volume. Made noise scoring ineffective but high totals running with those 120ppg pre bad boy pistons being fed by Isiah. Let him shoot a lot and not play D and he’s happy.




My issue is...why was he and so many like him....always guarding an athlete of Jordan’s caliber? And doing so in a fashion that suggested they either didn’t have film study or didn’t pay attention to it. They were everywhere in the 80s. There were entire teams of Kelly Tripuka with maybe one guy to break up the trend. Like this


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141806310350.jpeg




Aside from Kelly himself you have a 5’2” 130 pound Muggsy and a 6’2” already balding drug addict who eventually got caught shoplifting from an Apple store to feed his habit. Greg Kite who’s career highlight was being called “Scrappy” for getting 9 rebounds off the bench vs the Lakers one time and past his prime Kurt Rambis who even in his prime was most famous for getting clotheslined by Kevin Mchale.


With that lineup who can you put on an athlete of MJs caliber? It’s Kelly, the thieving junkie, or the one guy with some defense to him....Muggsy.


Some assume that famous pic of him guarded by Bogues was like...a weird switch or something. No. He was the assigned defender. This is off the tip:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FarawayAgreeableImago-size_restricted.gif




Muggsy runs to his assignment. He’s who has MJ.


And he did his best....on the perimeter at least. He didn’t have the size to even bother once his man was in the paint. Notice MJ getting the easy dump in and uncontested layup before giving Muggsy a little “You’ll get me next time little fella” tap:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScentedFaithfulKilldeer-size_restricted.gif




MJ wouldn’t traditionally even give the guy a chance and try to take him off the dribble. Immediately call for the clear out to bully the little guy.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImpishWeightyArabianwildcat-size_restricted.gif



And Muggsy actually gets a clean strip! So why the whistle? An illegal D was called because the Hornets had the audacity to have a help defender in position to support Muggsy.


So Jordan literally got a technical free throw because the other team tried to defend him well despite the mismatch.
https://media.giphy.com/media/LhL3NubRWVR7aa35TO/giphy.gif

[Kblaze8855]

I’m not trying to disrespect Muggsy...he was tough for his size. But frankly....


He’s literally the size of Simone biles:

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141810330366.jpeg




https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141811030374.jpeg




He’s more fitting to guard a small face up point who needs to keep his dribble. He doesn’t belong on a goat tier 6’6” slasher and post up specialist. It just isn’t fair. But it was rarely fair with Jordan. Is there any level of toughness someone the size of a female gymnast could have to make it a fair matchup with a goat tier 6’6” wing?


But they tried to put Kelly and his ilk on MJ. It just doesn’t work. He didn’t even take them serious. He’d just barrel down the lane uncontested taking Kelly unaware....



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThoroughSoupyAxisdeer-size_restricted.gif



He would be out there playing around driving throwing up nonsense:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OldfashionedNecessaryCatfish-size_restricted.gif



Knowing Pippen(who rebounded it and put it back) would clean up his mess.


Here is Kelly and what seems to be a sparrow like flock of other Kelly’s being ravaged by a Hawk mid air attempting to escape:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PointedCavernousAmericancrayfish-size_restricted.gif

[SATAN]

https://i.postimg.cc/pLmw0yWX/rip.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

Here he is guarded by another guy who is essentially Kelly Tripuka(with Kelly himself off to the right. I’m telling you Kelly Tripuka is in the building somewhere on 70% of the baskets Jordan scored in the 80s). This time it’s the not quite legendary Bill Hansen. Pictured here looking perplexed at the very notion of defense:

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141816180362.jpeg



Those are the standards of the 80s. Anyway this is how he chooses to defend a GOAT tier slasher who made 12(12!) threes that season:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HighMenacingAdmiralbutterfly-size_restricted.gif




Would anyone who had ever heard of a scouting report step out that far on a no jumper having athletic beast? You come out and stand there flat footed and usher him into the lane?




He’s made 4 threes to that point in the season. It was one of like 5 seasons he made less 3s than Steph has made in a single game. And they send concrete feet doughboys to check him chest to chest 25 feet from the basket.


But the deal at the time was to just let him have his and hope his selfishness kept the team from scoring enough around him. They just didn’t care what he did. This is 2.5 Kelly Tripukas explaining that(I won’t call Ainge a full Kelly...he was tough):



<span class="s1">
https://youtu.be/0B-xWc_oJ1E


The one non Kelly had clearly spent too much time with them and flat out said “Just let him go!”. That’s how the 80s saw it. Don’t change the approach. Throw waves of individual Kelly Tripukas and midgets at him with unsound tactics and hope for the best.

[Kblaze8855]

You can see it in action. He’s out there vs Todd Lichti and company who with this defense:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConventionalHardArawana-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GentleActiveCaracal-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CheeryUnnaturalKronosaurus-size_restricted.gif



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SilverEsteemedEland-size_restricted.gif




And a career 24% 3 point shot wouldn’t even be in the nba today. He and his guys are just allowing MJ all the uncontested shots and layups he wants....then not being able to give it back on the other end to at least tire him out. Dude won’t even put a hand up. Won’t go around the screen. And can’t even shoot. All the modern Todd Lichtis can at least shoot to make you work off the ball. MJ straight up had the night off with an easy 40 to pad those averages.






Long story short....


In a league that has some pride, has fewer than 150 Kelly Tripukas, and employs actual scouting and adjustments instead of simple acquiescence to the fact that he’s gonna score 40 might that career average drop a little?


Not to say Jordan didn’t score on tough defense as well. He’s obviously an incredible scorer. But is it possible he’d look a little less incredible if less of his league had employed the “**** it....” defense that was so widespread?

[Baller789]

The thread is about Lebron.
Instead of scrutinizing a Jordan stan's arguement, you hijack the thread and turn it into a Jordan sucks thread.

I mean how dumb can Lebron stans be :lol

[3ball]

Here are some facts.

Lebron since winning a title in 11-12 in the playoffs: 29.2/9.4/7.3/1.7/0.9 on 52/34/74 shooting.
Lebron in those 168 games: 29.7 PER, .259 winshares/48.


MJ since winning his first title until his last playoff run: 32.5/6.2/5.3 on 48/34/82 shooting.
MJ in those 126 games: 28.1 PER and .258 winshares/48.


When they both became winners, LeBron did more, played better, and carried more of a load for his team.

These are objective facts based on statistics and advanced statistics. Bron was simply a better player in his prime, that did more, than MJ was.





Lebron never became a winner - since his first title, he's won 4 and lost 5

So you included 5 runs of losing stat padding (often a record loss) that you're comparing to Jordan's perfection in full seasons (with vastly superior team offense and team assists - the stats show that lebron's style of stat accumulation sacrifices team assists and team offense compared to Jordan)

So it's no comparison..... if you want to compare lebron to Jordan in that way, you must include Jordan's losing years from 89' and 90'.

And lebron's stats are boosted by having equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention - see the stats below






Here are some facts.





PLAYOFF PPG


1988 McHale.... 25.4
1988 Bird.......... 24.5

2011 Wade...... 24.5
2011 Lebron.... 23.7

2020 Davis.'..... 27.8
2020 Lebron.... 27.7

2016 Kyrie'...... 25.8
2016 Lebron... 26.2

1987 Worthy.... 23.6
1987 Magic...'.. 21.1


^^^ Lebron, Magic and everyone in history are "pippens" because they needed a "jordan" (someone that could outscore them).. Jordan is the only guy that just needed a pippen - someone that averaged 10-30 less in every series (with less career apg)..

Jordan infact invented the idea of "carry-jobs" when he first came on the scene - it was his claim to fame and what differentiated him from bird/magic/isiah (who had equal-scoring teammates).

And equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only Jordan faced "1-man team" coverage for his entire career, thus giving ultimate integrity to his #1 ranked PER, BPM, WS/48, and also VORP seasons).

Kenny Smith talks about mj being the only 1-man show here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s

[scuzzy]

Kblaze pourin it on


3ball wants NO smoke


:yaohappy:

[Baller789]

Kblaze pourin it on


3ball wants NO smoke


:yaohappy:

Yeah pouring it on discussing the wrong player.

:lol

[TheGoatest]

1-9 playoff record without Pippen
10-13 career first round record
6-15 career finals-making record
4.0 rpg and 2.3 apg in 1998 finals
5-19 in championship-clinching game 6 of the 1996 finals
3 seasons in entire career where he had a 30% 3pt% on a non-pee-wee basketball 3-point line
5 seasons in career where shot below 20% 3pt%
1 season in career where he averaged 7.0 rebounds
1 season in career where he averaged 7.0 assists
Finished behind two 0 all-star teams in the 1986-87 season while having a 14.5 ppg, 13.1 rpg and 3.6 apg averaging teammate

[Ben Simmons]

"Lebron, Magic and everyone in history are "pippens" "

lol

[plowking]

Lebron never became a winner - since his first title, he's won 4 and lost 5

So you included 5 runs of losing stat padding (often a record loss) that you're comparing to Jordan's perfection in full seasons (with vastly superior team offense and team assists - the stats show that lebron's style of stat accumulation sacrifices team assists and team offense compared to Jordan)

So it's no comparison..... if you want to compare lebron to Jordan in that way, you must include Jordan's losing years from 89' and 90'.

And lebron's stats are boosted by having equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention - see the stats below






PLAYOFF PPG


1988 McHale.... 25.4
1988 Bird.......... 24.5

2011 Wade...... 24.5
2011 Lebron.... 23.7

2020 Davis.'..... 27.8
2020 Lebron.... 27.7

2016 Kyrie'...... 25.8
2016 Lebron... 26.2

1987 Worthy.... 23.6
1987 Magic...'.. 21.1


^^^ Lebron, Magic and everyone in history are "pippens" because they needed a "jordan" (someone that could outscore them).. Jordan is the only guy that just needed a pippen - someone that averaged 10-30 less in every series (with less career apg)..

Jordan infact invented the idea of "carry-jobs" when he first came on the scene - it was his claim to fame and what differentiated him from bird/magic/isiah (who had equal-scoring teammates).

And equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only Jordan faced "1-man team" coverage for his entire career, thus giving ultimate integrity to his #1 ranked PER, BPM, WS/48, and also VORP seasons).

Kenny Smith talks about mj being the only 1-man show here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s


So while being a Pippen, Lebron put up better stats and did more for his team than MJ ever did? Cool.

Imagine if he actually cared enough to be a Jordan type.

[3ball]

Kblaze pourin it on


3ball wants NO smoke


:yaohappy:

Admit it - you didn't read that long essay and never do.. neither do I

I'll educate you in a fraction of the words - today's 3-point contest has made bigs more athletic but guards are less athletic

Specifically, previous eras had a higher proportion of african-americans compared to today's euros and white boy 3-point shooters like Herro, Delly, Klay or Curry..

so Jordan would have a much easier time against today's lesser athletes at SG.. guys like harden don't compare to athletically to Drexler or Spree...

[Baller789]

1-9 playoff record without Pippen
10-13 career first round record
6-15 career finals-making record
4.0 rpg and 2.3 apg in 1998 finals
5-19 in championship-clinching game 6 of the 1996 finals
3 seasons in entire career where he had a 30% 3pt% on a non-pee-wee basketball 3-point line
1 season in career where he averaged 7.0 rebounds
1 season in career where he averaged 7.0 assists
Finished behind two 0 all-star teams in the 1986-87 season while having a 14.5 ppg, 13.1 rpg and 3.6 apg averaging teammate

Is that Lebron's statline?

[3ball]

So while being a Pippen, Lebron put up better stats and did more for his team than MJ ever did? Cool.

Imagine if he actually cared enough to be a Jordan type.

You lost now bye

[scuzzy]

Admit it - you didn't read that long essay and never do.. neither do I

I'll educate you in a fraction of the words - today's 3-point contest has made bigs more athletic but guards are less athletic

Specifically, previous eras had a higher proportion of african-americans compared to today's euros and white boy 3-point shooters like Herro, Delly, Klay or Curry..

so Jordan would have a much easier time against today's lesser athletes at SG.. guys like harden don't compare to athletically to Drexler or Spree...
didn't read :oldlol::banana:

[3ball]

didn't read :oldlol::banana:

I'm certain that you read "4/10 against Finals teams", so that's all you need really... :oldlol::banana:

3ball is like Mayweather.. undefeated

[scuzzy]

You can see it in action. He’s out there vs Todd Lichti and company who with this defense:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConventionalHardArawana-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GentleActiveCaracal-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CheeryUnnaturalKronosaurus-size_restricted.gif



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SilverEsteemedEland-size_restricted.gif




And a career 24% 3 point shot wouldn’t even be in the nba today. He and his guys are just allowing MJ all the uncontested shots and layups he wants....then not being able to give it back on the other end to at least tire him out. Dude won’t even put a hand up. Won’t go around the screen. And can’t even shoot. All the modern Todd Lichtis can at least shoot to make you work off the ball. MJ straight up had the night off with an easy 40 to pad those averages.






Long story short....


In a league that has some pride, has fewer than 150 Kelly Tripukas, and employs actual scouting and adjustments instead of simple acquiescence to the fact that he’s gonna score 40 might that career average drop a little?


Not to say Jordan didn’t score on tough defense as well. He’s obviously an incredible scorer. But is it possible he’d look a little less incredible if less of his league had employed the “**** it....” defense that was so widespread?
https://media.giphy.com/media/gfkKpI9tbTQ4ewI07o/giphy.gif

[Real14]

You lost now bye

Ether.

[Sulico]

Wow, Kblaze8855, that was ruthless.

That 3Ball guy doesn't even know how to answer.

GJ buddy, you are breath of fresh air in this forum.

[8Ball]

Kblaze took a shit in 3ball's mouth.

Another 3ball thread up in smoke. Crash and burn.

[Elosha]

You can see it in action. He’s out there vs Todd Lichti and company who with this defense:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConventionalHardArawana-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GentleActiveCaracal-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CheeryUnnaturalKronosaurus-size_restricted.gif



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SilverEsteemedEland-size_restricted.gif




And a career 24% 3 point shot wouldn’t even be in the nba today. He and his guys are just allowing MJ all the uncontested shots and layups he wants....then not being able to give it back on the other end to at least tire him out. Dude won’t even put a hand up. Won’t go around the screen. And can’t even shoot. All the modern Todd Lichtis can at least shoot to make you work off the ball. MJ straight up had the night off with an easy 40 to pad those averages.






Long story short....


In a league that has some pride, has fewer than 150 Kelly Tripukas, and employs actual scouting and adjustments instead of simple acquiescence to the fact that he’s gonna score 40 might that career average drop a little?


Not to say Jordan didn’t score on tough defense as well. He’s obviously an incredible scorer. But is it possible he’d look a little less incredible if less of his league had employed the “**** it....” defense that was so widespread?

Do you really think Jordan would have a harder time and would score less in today's league? Or are you or are you just playing Devil's Advocate, because I know you don't believe defenses are really tougher today. If Jordan played today, wide-open lanes, very little hand-checking, and constant easy avenues to the basket where he finishes as good as anyone in history in the league. I mean if James Harden can routinely saunter his way to the basket for easy uncontested layups, what the hell would MJ do, with a far quicker first step, dexterity, and ball control? I can't believe you really think Jordan would score less today. he would not doing 45 + or anything like that, but I think he would routinely average 33 to 37 points per season on high efficiency.

You can pick and choose and make anyone look like they are being defended by weak defenders. remember LeBron James being defended by JJ Barea in 2011, and quite well at that? I'm sorry, you cannot extrapolate by dropping Jordan's scoring average based on a few posted snippets of games. Jordan was routinely guarded by top defenders, and sometimes by bad defenders as well. Just like any other superstar in the league. And there's sometimes good reasons for this. Sometimes you want your best defensive player on a less potent offensive player, because the good defender is also a good offensive player and you don't want to wear them out covering Jordan. Or you think the good defender has a better shot slowing down someone like Pippen, rather than Jordan, and you'd rather let Jordan get his points and slow down his second option. I think you are making this analogy way too simplistic, and no, I absolutely do not think Jordan would average fewer points in today's league.

[Baller789]

Do you really think Jordan would have a harder time and would score less in today's league? Or are you or are you just playing Devil's Advocate, because I know you don't believe defenses are really tougher today. If Jordan played today, wide-open lanes, very little hand-checking, and constant easy avenues to the basket where he finishes as good as anyone in history in the league. I mean if James Harden can routinely saunter his way to the basket for easy uncontested layups, what the hell would MJ do, with a far quicker first step, dexterity, and ball control? I can't believe you really think Jordan would score less today. he would not doing 45 + or anything like that, but I think he would routinely average 33 to 37 points per season on high efficiency.

You can pick and choose and make anyone look like they are being defended by weak defenders. remember LeBron James being defended by JJ Barea in 2011, and quite well at that? I'm sorry, you cannot extrapolate by dropping Jordan's scoring average based on a few posted snippets of games. Jordan was routinely guarded by top defenders, and sometimes by bad defenders as well. Just like any other superstar in the league. And there's sometimes good reasons for this. Sometimes you want your best defensive player on a less potent offensive player, because the good defender is also a good offensive player and you don't want to wear them out covering Jordan. Or you think the good defender has a better shot slowing down someone like Pippen, rather than Jordan, and you'd rather let Jordan get his points and slow down his second option. I think you are making this analogy way too simplistic, and no, I absolutely do not think Jordan would average fewer points in today's league.

Oh noes, you used logic and common sense. You gonna get it now!

[And1AllDay]

Kblaze took a shit in 3ball's mouth.

Another 3ball thread up in smoke. Crash and burn.

big time

KgoatBlaze gottem again

:oldlol:

[Gray GOAT]

big time

KgoatBlaze gottem again

:oldlol:

We are looking at the autopsy of a person who is still alive.

[NBAGOAT]

Do you really think Jordan would have a harder time and would score less in today's league? Or are you or are you just playing Devil's Advocate, because I know you don't believe defenses are really tougher today. If Jordan played today, wide-open lanes, very little hand-checking, and constant easy avenues to the basket where he finishes as good as anyone in history in the league. I mean if James Harden can routinely saunter his way to the basket for easy uncontested layups, what the hell would MJ do, with a far quicker first step, dexterity, and ball control? I can't believe you really think Jordan would score less today. he would not doing 45 + or anything like that, but I think he would routinely average 33 to 37 points per season on high efficiency.

You can pick and choose and make anyone look like they are being defended by weak defenders. remember LeBron James being defended by JJ Barea in 2011, and quite well at that? I'm sorry, you cannot extrapolate by dropping Jordan's scoring average based on a few posted snippets of games. Jordan was routinely guarded by top defenders, and sometimes by bad defenders as well. Just like any other superstar in the league. And there's sometimes good reasons for this. Sometimes you want your best defensive player on a less potent offensive player, because the good defender is also a good offensive player and you don't want to wear them out covering Jordan. Or you think the good defender has a better shot slowing down someone like Pippen, rather than Jordan, and you'd rather let Jordan get his points and slow down his second option. I think you are making this analogy way too simplistic, and no, I absolutely do not think Jordan would average fewer points in today's league.

Your point is fair but you’re doing the same dissing harden generally to drive home your point. James harden has better ball control for one to nitpick. Ball handling is one of the best assets of his game.

The reason harden gets layups so often and easily is not his ability to drive but his stepback which he’s mastered at an incredible level where’s he’s an outlier the same way Kareem is with hook shots. Unlike other guys he doesn’t need screens to get off 3s so there’s no direct way to stop it besides letting him drive or hard doubling, both common defenses he sees. Jordan obviously is better in most ways but there’s no evidence he can replicate that shot making from distance.

To compare Lukas tried too and can’t even shoot 32% from 3 and still has one of the better ones in the league. There are good defenses that rather him drive for a floater/layup than take a stepback which is just a bit absurd. Pippen recommended playing him that way too, letting him drive.

[NBAGOAT]

The thread is about Lebron.
Instead of scrutinizing a Jordan stan's arguement, you hijack the thread and turn it into a Jordan sucks thread.

I mean how dumb can Lebron stans be :lol

No one wants to scrutinize 3balls argument because he never concedes a point and will often ignore you if his prepared response to your response doesn’t work. I’ve tried often.

The few times he’s arguing on the fly, he’s said some of the most outrageous shit I’ve ever seen often not about Jordan/lebron that shows he really doesn’t know shit. It’s more productive to troll him.

[Vino24]

3ball can’t respond to a single kblaze post. Cooked

[tpols]

kblaze is clearly trolling... smh

[Vino24]

kblaze is clearly trolling... smh

The response was perhaps trollish but it’s doesn’t mean it’s not true

[MaxPlayer]

No one wants to scrutinize 3balls argument because he never concedes a point and will often ignore you if his prepared response to your response doesn’t work. I’ve tried often.

The few times he’s arguing on the fly, he’s said some of the most outrageous shit I’ve ever seen often not about Jordan/lebron that shows he really doesn’t know shit. It’s more productive to troll him.

Does anyone even read his posts? I just scroll past them so I can chuckle at the responses.

[jlip]

Michael Jordan is the greatest loser among the top 10 all time greatest players. No subjective opinion allowed.

Below is a list of players typically in the top 10 all time (in no particular order). Beside their names are the seasons in which their teams had losing seasons. As you can see, with five losing seasons, Michael Jordan is by far the greatest loser among players who are usually considered to be top 10. No one else has more than two. This means he's more than twice the loser as anyone else. In the era of trolling and manufactured criteria, we don’t need context nor explanations regarding, age, quality of teammates, or injuries. Those things don’t matter. Context doesn’t matter when he wins. It’s just assumed that it’s solely because he’s so great. Therefore, in the interest of consistency, context doesn’t matter when he loses either.

MJ is celebrated for going 6/6 or perfect in the finals, while Bill Russell is not considered perfect in the finals while going 11/12, despite the only finals his team lost, he missed half of it due to injury. So again, in the era of trolling, context is unnecessary. MJ is, by far, the greatest loser among top 10 players. Simple facts. No opinion.

Bill Russell- N/A
Wilt Chamberlain- 1963, 1965
Kareem Abdul Jabbar- 1975, 1976
Magic Johnson- N/A
Larry Bird- N/A
Michael Jordan- 1985, 1986, 1987, 2002, 2003
Shaquille O'Neal- 2008 w/Heat
Tim Duncan- N/A
Lebron James- 2004, 2019
Hakeem Olajuwon- 2000

[Wally450]

I wonder if OP is going to show his girl this thread and get his dick sucked again. :roll:

[8Ball]

I wonder if OP is going to show his girl this thread and get his dick sucked again. :roll:


44 year old man shows his old wife insidehoops posts and it impresses his neanderthal wife so much she sucks his dick. :oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

OP please seek therapy...you need it badly. Unlike the rest of these ISH posters, I'm actually trying to help you.

[3ball]

The response was perhaps trollish but it’s doesn’t mean it’s not true

He was factually inaccurate because previous eras had a higher proportion of african-americans compared to today's euros and white boy 3-point shooters like Herro, Delly, Van Fleet, Klay or Curry..

So today's 3-point contest has made bigs more athletic but shooting guards are less athletic because they only need to shoot

so Jordan would have a much easier time against today's lesser athletes at SG.. guys like Harden, Herro or Beal are inferior physically to Drexler, Spree or Ellis...

[red1]

Gotta say I find myself agreeing for the most part but if you have a moment to spare between the many beautiful women enamored with your 980 or so topics on this subject I hoped you might clear something up for me while stats are the issue.....




We all know Jordan scored a lot. Most per game ever in fact. But might he score a little less in today’s league that isn’t so overflowing with guys like Kelly Tripuka?


You know Kelly I’m sure. Good scorer when given enough volume. Made noise scoring ineffective but high totals running with those 120ppg pre bad boy pistons being fed by Isiah. Let him shoot a lot and not play D and he’s happy.




My issue is...why was he and so many like him....always guarding an athlete of Jordan’s caliber? And doing so in a fashion that suggested they either didn’t have film study or didn’t pay attention to it. They were everywhere in the 80s. There were entire teams of Kelly Tripuka with maybe one guy to break up the trend. Like this


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141806310350.jpeg




Aside from Kelly himself you have a 5’2” 130 pound Muggsy and a 6’2” already balding drug addict who eventually got caught shoplifting from an Apple store to feed his habit. Greg Kite who’s career highlight was being called “Scrappy” for getting 9 rebounds off the bench vs the Lakers one time and past his prime Kurt Rambis who even in his prime was most famous for getting clotheslined by Kevin Mchale.


With that lineup who can you put on an athlete of MJs caliber? It’s Kelly, the thieving junkie, or the one guy with some defense to him....Muggsy.


Some assume that famous pic of him guarded by Bogues was like...a weird switch or something. No. He was the assigned defender. This is off the tip:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FarawayAgreeableImago-size_restricted.gif




Muggsy runs to his assignment. He’s who has MJ.


And he did his best....on the perimeter at least. He didn’t have the size to even bother once his man was in the paint. Notice MJ getting the easy dump in and uncontested layup before giving Muggsy a little “You’ll get me next time little fella” tap:

MJ wouldn’t traditionally even give the guy a chance and try to take him off the dribble. Immediately call for the clear out to bully the little guy.

And Muggsy actually gets a clean strip! So why the whistle? An illegal D was called because the Hornets had the audacity to have a help defender in position to support Muggsy.


So Jordan literally got a technical free throw because the other team tried to defend him well despite the mismatch.
:roll: :roll:


kblaze trolling 3ball is the greatest ISH trend of the year


you know its bad when a fellow jordan fan has had enough of your shitty arguments and starts shitting on you too :roll:

[3ball]

:roll: :roll:


kblaze trolling 3ball is the greatest ISH trend of the year


you know its bad when a fellow jordan fan has had enough of your shitty arguments and starts shitting on you too :roll:

the OP is stats only, not an "argument" - that's the beauty of it - it's irrefutable, so troll responses are expected and predictable

Again, I've been getting blow jobs all week

[SouBeachTalents]

Michael Jordan is the greatest loser among the top 10 all time greatest players. No subjective opinion allowed.

Below is a list of players typically in the top 10 all time (in no particular order). Beside their names are the seasons in which their teams had losing seasons. As you can see, with five losing seasons, Michael Jordan is by far the greatest loser among players who are usually considered to be top 10. No one else has more than two. This means he's more than twice the loser as anyone else. In the era of trolling and manufactured criteria, we don’t need context nor explanations regarding, age, quality of teammates, or injuries. Those things don’t matter. Context doesn’t matter when he wins. It’s just assumed that it’s solely because he’s so great. Therefore, in the interest of consistency, context doesn’t matter when he loses either.

MJ is celebrated for going 6/6 or perfect in the finals, while Bill Russell is not considered perfect in the finals while going 11/12, despite the only finals his team lost, he missed half of it due to injury. So again, in the era of trolling, context is unnecessary. MJ is, by far, the greatest loser among top 10 players. Simple facts. No opinion.

Bill Russell- N/A
Wilt Chamberlain- 1963, 1965
Kareem Abdul Jabbar- 1975, 1976
Magic Johnson- N/A
Larry Bird- N/A
Michael Jordan- 1985, 1986, 1987, 2002, 2003
Shaquille O'Neal- 2008 w/Heat
Tim Duncan- N/A
Lebron James- 2004, 2019
Hakeem Olajuwon- 2000
Damn :biggums:

More than double of anybody else

[3ball]

.
Finals Career

Davis..... 25/10/3 on 57% (3 less ppg than lebron)
Kyrie....... 28/4/4 on 47% (equal ppg to lebron)
Wade...... 24/6/5 on 47% (4 less ppg than lebron)
Pippen.... 19/8/6 on 42% (15 less ppg than MJ)

Lebron.... 28/10/8 on 48%
Jordan..... 34/6/6 on 48%


^^^ Kyrie matches Lebron's ppg and Wade/AD are within 3-4 ppg.

So despite sharing the defensive attention with his sidekick, Lebron averages 5 less points than Jordan, who was the sole focus of all defenses.

so only Jordan faced "1-man team" coverage for his entire career, thus giving ultimate integrity to his #1 ranked PER, BPM, WS/48, and also VORP seasons.

Kenny Smith talks about mj being the only 1-man show here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s[/QUOTE]






with five losing seasons, Michael Jordan is by far the greatest loser among players who are usually considered to be top 10. No one else has more than two





Jordan took over two 20-something win teams in 85' and 02', but unlike lebron's 20-win rosters in 04' and 19', there were no improvements on the way

the 2nd option of the 87' bulls (oakley) < 05' Cavs (all-star zydrunas)...

[red1]

the OP is stats only, not an "argument" - that's the beauty of it - it's irrefutable, so troll responses are expected and predictable

Again, I've been getting blow jobs all week


Gotta say I find myself agreeing for the most part but if you have a moment to spare between the many beautiful women enamored with your 980 or so topics on this subject I hoped you might clear something up for me while stats are the issue.....

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[red1]

charles barkley said guys were drinking and smoking at half-time when he got into the league :oldlol:

[Axe]

the OP is stats only, not an "argument" - that's the beauty of it - it's irrefutable, so troll responses are expected and predictable

Again, I've been getting blow jobs all week
Rubbish

[3ball]

Rubbish

She's with me right now. Destroying fools on another forum in between running her business.. and yes, I just got some

[Horatio33]

the OP is stats only, not an "argument" - that's the beauty of it - it's irrefutable, so troll responses are expected and predictable

Again, I've been getting blow jobs all week

"Whoa whoa stop sucking please sweetheart, I'm about to spam post about why Jordan was better than LeBron. Take it out of your mouth darlin'."

[8Ball]

Another 3ball thread dumpstered.

No other neanderthals left to defend 3ball.

There used to be so many. All extinct.

[HoopsNY]

Here he is guarded by another guy who is essentially Kelly Tripuka(with Kelly himself off to the right. I’m telling you Kelly Tripuka is in the building somewhere on 70% of the baskets Jordan scored in the 80s). This time it’s the not quite legendary Bill Hansen. Pictured here looking perplexed at the very notion of defense:

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141816180362.jpeg



Those are the standards of the 80s. Anyway this is how he chooses to defend a GOAT tier slasher who made 12(12!) threes that season:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HighMenacingAdmiralbutterfly-size_restricted.gif




Would anyone who had ever heard of a scouting report step out that far on a no jumper having athletic beast? You come out and stand there flat footed and usher him into the lane?




He’s made 4 threes to that point in the season. It was one of like 5 seasons he made less 3s than Steph has made in a single game. And they send concrete feet doughboys to check him chest to chest 25 feet from the basket.


But the deal at the time was to just let him have his and hope his selfishness kept the team from scoring enough around him. They just didn’t care what he did. This is 2.5 Kelly Tripukas explaining that(I won’t call Ainge a full Kelly...he was tough):



<span class="s1">
https://youtu.be/0B-xWc_oJ1E


The one non Kelly had clearly spent too much time with them and flat out said “Just let him go!”. That’s how the 80s saw it. Don’t change the approach. Throw waves of individual Kelly Tripukas and midgets at him with unsound tactics and hope for the best.


Here he is guarded by another guy who is essentially Kelly Tripuka(with Kelly himself off to the right. I’m telling you Kelly Tripuka is in the building somewhere on 70% of the baskets Jordan scored in the 80s). This time it’s the not quite legendary Bill Hansen. Pictured here looking perplexed at the very notion of defense:

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141816180362.jpeg



Those are the standards of the 80s. Anyway this is how he chooses to defend a GOAT tier slasher who made 12(12!) threes that season:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HighMenacingAdmiralbutterfly-size_restricted.gif




Would anyone who had ever heard of a scouting report step out that far on a no jumper having athletic beast? You come out and stand there flat footed and usher him into the lane?




He’s made 4 threes to that point in the season. It was one of like 5 seasons he made less 3s than Steph has made in a single game. And they send concrete feet doughboys to check him chest to chest 25 feet from the basket.


But the deal at the time was to just let him have his and hope his selfishness kept the team from scoring enough around him. They just didn’t care what he did. This is 2.5 Kelly Tripukas explaining that(I won’t call Ainge a full Kelly...he was tough):



<span class="s1">
https://youtu.be/0B-xWc_oJ1E


The one non Kelly had clearly spent too much time with them and flat out said “Just let him go!”. That’s how the 80s saw it. Don’t change the approach. Throw waves of individual Kelly Tripukas and midgets at him with unsound tactics and hope for the best.

The assumption is that if you put better guards on peak MJ that it would have somehow made a difference. You're highlighting guys like Tripucka and Hansen, as if that's all MJ faced in the 80s. You mentioned 1987 where he hit just 12 three pointers, leaving out that teams just weren't big on taking lower percentage shots period.

A guy like Mark Price came off the bench and only hit 23 all season. Chris Mullin started the entire season and hit only 19. This wasn't just a Jordan thing. The league was evolving as it was only the 6th season into having the three point line.

I mean, the 2018-19 season saw over 2,600 3PA in the regular season, an all time record. Compare that to 1987 where teams shot a combined 388 3PA. In that year, only one player made 90 three pointers - Larry Bird. In 2019, 116 players did it. It's just such a drastically different game that I can't imagine how mentioning MJ hitting 12 three pointers really does anything to diminish from his level of play or the opponents that he faced?

In the first three games of that season, his opponents were teams like the Knicks, Cavs, and the Spurs, which meant he was the defensive assignment for guys like Gerald Wilkins, Ron Harper, and Alvin Robertson. All three were great athletes, and Robertson was All-Defensive 1st team. Here's what he did against them.

vs. Knicks: 50 pts on 48%
vs. Cavs: 41 pts on 52%
vs. Spurs: 34 pts on 45%

In addition, perimeter defense didn't really matter to Mj as much as he wasn't taking as many perimeter shots as he was in the mid to late 90s. What made his production unique was that he was a slasher, primarily attacking the basket and drawing double-triple teams. Remember Chicago didn't have an Orlando Woolridge that season to offset 20 PPG of support.

So MJ was driving against the likes of the Hakeems, Ewings, Eatons, Rollins, Parishs, McHales, and Presseys of the league. What was the outcome?

Are players more athletic today? Sure. But are they more equipped at defensive schemes than players from the 80s? I don't necessarily think so. What do you think?

The immediate assumption is that more athleticism translates into better defense (i.e, defensive IQ). We saw what a guy like Bird did defensively minus any athleticism at all. Are players today working with the same level of defensive intelligence?

Here's another thing that I do know. With today's spacing, lack of defensive schemes, loosened perimeter rules, and lack of interior defense, MJ likely has a better clear path to the basket, less aggressive fouls, and more one on one opportunities.

One thing that haters on this forum forget is that the era of super-teams has returned teams to 3 star co-ops. In addition, teams are equipped with shooters on the outside with less bodies in the paint. So put MJ in that scenario. Not only do you potentially have guys like a Giannis, Klay, and/or a Kawhi as a potential running mate, but you also have shooters like JJ Reddick, Bryn Forbes, or Joe Harris standing on the outside.

At any given moment, you could have 2 co-stars on the team with 2 shooters. So imagine having a lineup of MJ, Klay, Gasol, Rubio, and Siakam. Or maybe MJ, Kawhi, T. Thompson, D. Jordan, and Chris Paul, as an example.

With MJ's court vision, offensive IQ, and less bodies in the paint, what do YOU think would be the result of this? Since MJ, we haven't seen any player with the same aesthetics and athleticism. So which "athletic" players are stopping him if they can't even match him in that category alone? We saw what a 40 year old MJ did to Shawn Marion. What does a 25 year old MJ do now when 2002 was the peak of defensive play in NBA history?

[Horatio33]

What Blaze said isn't aimed at Jordan, just spam posters who constantly stan for or hate on specific players.

But you knew that.

[HoopsNY]

What Blaze said isn't aimed at Jordan, just spam posters who constantly stan for or hate on specific players.

But you knew that.

I didn't read it as such, so no, I didn't know that. It was a pretty detailed attempt, with video footage and all.

If he did mean it as a jab, then sure, ok, 3ball is an ignoramus.

[3ball]

The OP is all stats and historical record

For example, lebron did have 3 teammates with higher BPM, PER, WS/48 and peak VORP than Pippen.. That is a fact..

the other OP stats are similarly irrefutable

[8Ball]

Irrefutable Jordan stats are as follows:

1-9 without Pippen.
No 55 win seasons without Pippen (3ball said it was easy since everyone does it, Jordan didn't)
Pippen has 55 win season without Jordan.
Jordan's 6 rings are shackled to Pippen and Phil Jackson.

[1987_Lakers]

Lets look at the stats.

I mean just look at the '87-'88 stretch where they matched up 10 times in the season and once in the playoffs. Both were healthy and MVP caliber players so no excuses for either player...


11/14/86
Bird - 37/10/5 (13/25 shooting)
Jordan - 48/5/1 (17/33 shooting)

Celtics win, I'd say it's a wash though.

01/02/87
Bird - 37/8/9 (61.1%)
Jordan - 34/8/3 (41.9%)

Celtics win, Bird easily wins the matchup. Highlights of the game here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=3ChmRhlFzk0&feature=emb_title
. As you can see Jordan made a pitiful attempt at guarding him.

27/01/87
Bird - 24/14/3 (39%)
Jordan - 30/6/4 (38%)

Celtics win. Wash.

28/01/87
Bird - 26/5/9 (65%)
Jordan - 27/4/4 (48%)
Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

27/03/87
Bird - 41/7/7 (58.6%)
Jordan - 22/7/7 (39.1%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.

17/04/87
Bird - 38/8/7 (59%)
Jordan - 17/4/8 (33%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.

12/01/88
Bird - 38/9/8 (58%)
Jordan - 42/4/6 (53%)

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

18/03/88
Bird - 19/10/6
Jordan - 50/9/5

Bulls win. Jordan finally wins head to head.

20/03/88
Bird - 33/7/8 (67%)
Jordan - 26/4/7 (56%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup. Highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp0NMFf9Dkg&feature=emb_title

21/04/88
Bird - 44/10/3 (65.5%)
Jordan - 39/3/8 (51.5%)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdMjK-60H-k

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup *yawn*


Bird's record in this stretch? 9-1 while outperforming him in nearly every game. What makes this worse? Bird made Jordan look like a child when Jordan tried to guard him. Meanwhile the possessions I saw Bird guard Jordan, he defended him quite well (definitly wasn't gambling for steals to leave him open in the post).

Moreover, Jordan is 0-6 in the playoffs including this disaster in '87: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RVMJSCTj5Y (Jordan makes 0 shots in the 4th quarter...Bulls had a 7 point lead with 11 minutes left...but Bird showed up when it mattered while Jordan was no where to be seen)

[3ball]

Irrefutable Jordan stats are as follows:

1-9 without Pippen.
No 55 win seasons without Pippen (3ball said it was easy since everyone does it, Jordan didn't)
Pippen has 55 win season without Jordan.
Jordan's 6 rings are shackled to Pippen and Phil Jackson.

1-9 with 8 seeds and pippen won 55 games like Marc gasol in Memphis or Lowry in Toronto.

That's all you have to counter the OP?.. Then mj goat .. by far

[3ball]

Jordan's 8 seeds did better against bird than lebron's high seeds against KD in 17' and 18'

Ultimately, Jordan's 8 seeds from 86' and 87' equal lebron's 9 seeds from 04' and 05'.. so people are criticizing Jordan for losing to the goat Warriors with lebron's 04/05 teams.

[8Ball]

Who needs to reply seriously when kblaze already took a giant dump on this thread.

[3ball]

Who needs to reply seriously when kblaze already took a giant dump on this thread.

He trolled and numerous people called him out for it while destroying the trolls themselves

You simply chose to ignore the responses that sliced him up.. I didn't even need to respond

Otoh, the OP is just stats, and therefore untouched.. impossible to refute the historical record

[ArbitraryWater]

Gotta say I find myself agreeing for the most part but if you have a moment to spare between the many beautiful women enamored with your 980 or so topics on this subject I hoped you might clear something up for me while stats are the issue.....




We all know Jordan scored a lot. Most per game ever in fact. But might he score a little less in today’s league that isn’t so overflowing with guys like Kelly Tripuka?


You know Kelly I’m sure. Good scorer when given enough volume. Made noise scoring ineffective but high totals running with those 120ppg pre bad boy pistons being fed by Isiah. Let him shoot a lot and not play D and he’s happy.




My issue is...why was he and so many like him....always guarding an athlete of Jordan’s caliber? And doing so in a fashion that suggested they either didn’t have film study or didn’t pay attention to it. They were everywhere in the 80s. There were entire teams of Kelly Tripuka with maybe one guy to break up the trend. Like this


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012141806310350.jpeg




Aside from Kelly himself you have a 5’2” 130 pound Muggsy and a 6’2” already balding drug addict who eventually got caught shoplifting from an Apple store to feed his habit. Greg Kite who’s career highlight was being called “Scrappy” for getting 9 rebounds off the bench vs the Lakers one time and past his prime Kurt Rambis who even in his prime was most famous for getting clotheslined by Kevin Mchale.


With that lineup who can you put on an athlete of MJs caliber? It’s Kelly, the thieving junkie, or the one guy with some defense to him....Muggsy.


Some assume that famous pic of him guarded by Bogues was like...a weird switch or something. No. He was the assigned defender. This is off the tip:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FarawayAgreeableImago-size_restricted.gif




Muggsy runs to his assignment. He’s who has MJ.


And he did his best....on the perimeter at least. He didn’t have the size to even bother once his man was in the paint. Notice MJ getting the easy dump in and uncontested layup before giving Muggsy a little “You’ll get me next time little fella” tap:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScentedFaithfulKilldeer-size_restricted.gif




MJ wouldn’t traditionally even give the guy a chance and try to take him off the dribble. Immediately call for the clear out to bully the little guy.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImpishWeightyArabianwildcat-size_restricted.gif



And Muggsy actually gets a clean strip! So why the whistle? An illegal D was called because the Hornets had the audacity to have a help defender in position to support Muggsy.


So Jordan literally got a technical free throw because the other team tried to defend him well despite the mismatch.


Wow..

thats insane.


Joke era for MJ.

[Axe]

Lets look at the stats.

I mean just look at the '87-'88 stretch where they matched up 10 times in the season and once in the playoffs. Both were healthy and MVP caliber players so no excuses for either player...


11/14/86
Bird - 37/10/5 (13/25 shooting)
Jordan - 48/5/1 (17/33 shooting)

Celtics win, I'd say it's a wash though.

01/02/87
Bird - 37/8/9 (61.1%)
Jordan - 34/8/3 (41.9%)

Celtics win, Bird easily wins the matchup. Highlights of the game here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=3ChmRhlFzk0&feature=emb_title
. As you can see Jordan made a pitiful attempt at guarding him.

27/01/87
Bird - 24/14/3 (39%)
Jordan - 30/6/4 (38%)

Celtics win. Wash.

28/01/87
Bird - 26/5/9 (65%)
Jordan - 27/4/4 (48%)
Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

27/03/87
Bird - 41/7/7 (58.6%)
Jordan - 22/7/7 (39.1%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.

17/04/87
Bird - 38/8/7 (59%)
Jordan - 17/4/8 (33%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.

12/01/88
Bird - 38/9/8 (58%)
Jordan - 42/4/6 (53%)

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

18/03/88
Bird - 19/10/6
Jordan - 50/9/5

Bulls win. Jordan finally wins head to head.

20/03/88
Bird - 33/7/8 (67%)
Jordan - 26/4/7 (56%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup. Highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp0NMFf9Dkg&feature=emb_title

21/04/88
Bird - 44/10/3 (65.5%)
Jordan - 39/3/8 (51.5%)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdMjK-60H-k

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup *yawn*


Bird's record in this stretch? 9-1 while outperforming him in nearly every game. What makes this worse? Bird made Jordan look like a child when Jordan tried to guard him. Meanwhile the possessions I saw Bird guard Jordan, he defended him quite well (definitly wasn't gambling for steals to leave him open in the post).

Moreover, Jordan is 0-6 in the playoffs including this disaster in '87: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RVMJSCTj5Y (Jordan makes 0 shots in the 4th quarter...Bulls had a 7 point lead with 11 minutes left...but Bird showed up when it mattered while Jordan was no where to be seen)
The same post from the other thread. This is being 3ball-esque

[Axe]

Who needs to reply seriously when kblaze already took a giant dump on this thread.
Well op is retarded. The only way for this shtick to stop is to ip ban him on this place permanently.

[1987_Lakers]

The same post from the other thread. This is being 3ball-esque

Deal with it.

[3ball]

Deal with it.

You apparently missed the response to bird vs mj:

Jordan's 8 seeds did better against bird than lebron's high seeds did against "modern Bird" (KD) in 17' and 18'

Ultimately, Jordan's 8 seeds from 86' and 87' equal lebron's 9 seeds from 04' and 05'.. so people are criticizing Jordan for losing to the goat Warriors with lebron's 04/05 teams.

If you must lose, you want to lose with the worst odds possible and worst teams, aka 8 vs 1 matchup.. so losing the best way is all people can knock mj for lol

[Axe]

You apparently missed the response to bird vs mj:

Jordan's 8 seeds did better against bird than lebron's high seeds did against "modern Bird" (KD) in 17' and 18'

Ultimately, Jordan's 8 seeds from 86' and 87' equal lebron's 9 seeds from 04' and 05'.. so people are criticizing Jordan for losing to the goat Warriors with lebron's 04/05 teams.

If you must lose, you want to lose with the worst odds possible and worst teams, aka 8 vs 1 matchup.. so losing the best way is all people can knock mj for lol
1-9

[1987_Lakers]

You apparently missed the response to bird vs mj:

Jordan's 8 seeds did better against bird than lebron's high seeds did against "modern Bird" (KD) in 17' and 18'

Ultimately, Jordan's 8 seeds from 86' and 87' equal lebron's 9 seeds from 04' and 05'.. so people are criticizing Jordan for losing to the goat Warriors with lebron's 04/05 teams.

If you must lose, you want to lose with the worst odds possible and worst teams, aka 8 vs 1 matchup.. so losing the best way is all people can knock mj for lol

You apparently missed that McHale had a broken foot and missed time in the first round vs Chicago in '87 and no Walton as well. That is like the Warriors losing Curry & Iggy, far from a great team.

Bird went right at MJ and spanked him. Deal with it.

[3ball]

You apparently missed that McHale had a broken foot and missed time in the first round vs Chicago in '87 and no Walton as well. That is like the Warriors losing Curry & Iggy, far from a great team.

Bird went right at MJ and spanked him. Deal with it.


KD/Klay and company would still destroy the 04' Cavs or 19' Lakers

That's what you're knocking sophomore mj for... And that's your biggest knock - that he lost with the worst odds (8 vs 1) - but that's the only way the goat is supposed to lose

He still led a lottery cast over the #1 SRS team in 89' and their 3 all-stars.. then he would've beaten the Pistons if pippen hadn't missed the last 2 games of ecf.. nonetheless, he nearly beat the Pistons despite 10 ppg from Pippen, so anyone decent would've won chips with mj from 88' onwards

[1987_Lakers]

KD/Klay and company would still destroy the 04' Cavs or 19' Lakers



So you admit the Celtics were not on the level as the KD Warriors?

I win. Deal with it.

[3ball]

So you admit the Celtics were not on the level as the KD Warriors?

I win. Deal with it.

I equated Bird's Celtics with KD's Warriors. I never said one was over the other. But I would pick Bird's Celtics if I had to choose

[1987_Lakers]

I equated Bird's Celtics with KD's Warriors. I never said one was over the other. But I would pick Bird's Celtics if I had to choose

Their '86 team is top 3 ever in my book, just such a shame in '87 without McHale & Walton MJ was only able to shoot 42% against them and was totally dominated by Bird in the closeout game 3.

[Axe]

I equated Bird's Celtics with KD's Warriors. I never said one was over the other. But I would pick Bird's Celtics if I had to choose
Well yes because they essentially beat a frail goat that went 1-9 in the postseason without tree trunks right?

[HoopsNY]

You apparently missed that McHale had a broken foot and missed time in the first round vs Chicago in '87 and no Walton as well. That is like the Warriors losing Curry & Iggy, far from a great team.

Bird went right at MJ and spanked him. Deal with it.

How misleading. McHale still played in 2/3 games and put up 21/8/3 on 51%. Not to mention, Walton played in that series, too. It's like you Bran stans can't come up with anything more than half-truths, misinformation, and sometimes straight up lies.

[EllEffEll]

Her: "Are you coming to bed?"

Him: "This is important!"

Her: "What?"

Him: "Some guys on ISH think Lebron might be better than Michael."

Her: "OK, I heard there's some more guys on Reeel GeeM that said the same thing. If you could stay in there for another ten or fifteen minutes, that would be w-o-n-d-e-r-f-u-l. . . . . Go get 'em!"

Bzzzzzzz, Oohhh, ahaaaa, bzzzzzzzz. . . .

Him: "You're the best. I love you!"

[AirBonner]

Her: "Are you coming to bed?"

Him: "This is important!"

Her: "What?"

Him: "Some guys on ISH think Lebron might be better than Michael."

Her: "OK, I heard there's some more guys on Reeel GeeM that said the same thing. If you could stay in there for another ten or fifteen minutes, that would be w-o-n-d-e-r-f-u-l. . . . . Go get 'em!"

Bzzzzzzz, Oohhh, ahaaaa, bzzzzzzzz. . . .

Him: "You're the best. I love you!"

:roll:

[k0kakw0rld]

This idiot is out there writing essays, defending Jordan like he pays his bills. Get a damn life OP.

You will never change any of these guy's opinions anyway so why waste your time and energy. Saying and writing the same sh!t we don't give sh1t about.

[red1]

barkley: "guys were smoking and drinking at halftime when I got to the league"


https://youtu.be/lOsnvfkirRA?t=110


:roll: :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

How misleading. McHale still played in 2/3 games and put up 21/8/3 on 51%. Not to mention, Walton played in that series, too. It's like you Bran stans can't come up with anything more than half-truths, misinformation, and sometimes straight up lies.

If you were smart enough you would know I'm exaggerating and leaving out small details the EXACT same way 3ball does. You have mods like Kblaze trolling in this thread, this is all a joke to us, you really thing anyone on this forum takes him serious?

[highwhey]

barkley: "guys were smoking and drinking at halftime when I got to the league"


https://youtu.be/lOsnvfkirRA?t=110


:roll: :roll:

https://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/sass2.png

[HoopsNY]

If you were smart enough you would know I'm exaggerating and leaving out small details the EXACT same way 3ball does. You have mods like Kblaze trolling in this thread, this is all a joke to us, you really thing anyone on this forum takes him serious?

I think you do. You don't only do it here. You've done it on several other, more serious posters, threads. Don't backtrack now. You genuinely believe what you say.

[k0kakw0rld]

barkley: "guys were smoking and drinking at halftime when I got to the league"


https://youtu.be/lOsnvfkirRA?t=110


:roll: :roll:

I can understand Jordan's 2 3peats now. Smoking cigars, intoxicating his peers before playoff games. What a strategist!! :oldlol:

[red1]

https://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/sass2.png



I can understand Jordan's 2 3peats now. Smoking cigars, intoxicating his peers before playoff games. What a strategist!! :oldlol:

guys were smoking cigarettes and drinking beers at half-time :roll:

https://media.tenor.com/images/394e9dba5ea2a1dd7f6056564a459ca8/tenor.gif
https://media.tenor.com/images/394e9dba5ea2a1dd7f6056564a459ca8/tenor.gif

[3ball]

* 4/10 against Finals teams

* no all-defense for 7 straight years of prime

* no MVP for 7 straight years of prime

* Won the East with only 22/6/5 in the 14' ECF (stacked team, weak conference)

* Historic choke in 2011 and record losses in 14' and 18' - all with high seeds

* 30% on jumpers in the 4th quarter of 2009 ECF and lost 3 fourth quarter leads (disappeared in critical Game 4 OT while Dwight dominated)

* Lost 2-1 leads as the favorite in the 10' ECSF and 11' Finals

* 22 on 36% in the 2007 Finals (worst-ever for #1 option in the Finals)

* 18 ppg in 2011 Finals

* the only player in history that lost as the favorite for 2 years in a row with 60-win, 1 seeds

* lost as the favorite from 2009-2011

* lost to 1-star teams twice (09', 11')

* lost 6 times with good teams (1 or 2 seed)

* played the "pippen" role - outscored by teammates on 2 playoff runs (11', 20') and many series

* Never beat a Finals team or good team (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 17 years)

* avoids contested jumpers and clutch - 94% of jumpers are uncontested

* fake efficiency - his at-rim efficiency hides weak jumpshooting efficiency and inferior per possession efficiency (ball control/turnovers)

* no playoff runs with less than 3 TO's per game (edit: 09')

* 1 Finals run like AI/Dwight before the "decision" (1-trick pony before stacking the deck)

* 2010 Wade had a 9.2 BPM and Kobe 4.4, so Lebron teamed up with a bigger producer than 10' Kobe, but was a perennial loser/underdog (Finals loser or underdog for 3 of 4 years after teaming up with Kobe/Pau 2)

* Net negative in the 2013 Finals (negative net rating - Heat lost with him on the floor) - 16 on 39% thru 3 games and 23 on 43% thru 6 was insufficient to win, therefore needing Ray Allen to force Game 7

* 3 of his sidekicks (AD, Wade, Kyrie) have higher BPM, PER, WS/48, PPG and efficiency than Pippen.. Love also exceeds pippen in these areas except a near tie in BPM.. (pippen's peak VORP ranks 96th all-time, or below Love, AD, or Wade's)

* Lebron's defensive assignment (the opposing SF) won FMVP four times

* Lebron was the only Heat or Cav player that allowed his defensive assignment to average over 2 points above their regular season averages in the 14', 15', 17', or 18' Finals - so only lebron was playing bad defense - Iggy, Kawhi, and KD averaged 5-10 points above their RS averages

* fields low ball movement or low assist teams (his teams rank 14th in assists on average, while champions rank 7th) - massive deficits in team assists is the common thread in his Finals losses

* turns teammates into play-finishers - reduces their assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing), aka 4/10 brand of basketball/results

* For most of Lebron's career, he started at SF but then became a 2nd point guard on the floor.. But unfortunately, teammates have less hold-time and assists in 2-PG lineups than traditional 1-PG lineups.. Lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level. Ultimately, Lebron's reduction of teammate assists via 2-PG lineups and personally turning a highly-assisted position (SF) into a low-assisted one (PG) reduces the assist capacity of the team.

* Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team but missed the playoffs in 04' and 05' - he made the 06' Playoffs by adding a 22/5/5 all-defender, the future COY, and a top 5 defense.

* Lebron only made the playoffs with developed, 50-win high seeds and never had to carry his worst, lottery teams in the playoffs - his 30 to 40 win teams missed the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19', thereby avoiding the 8 vs 1 matchup against the champion Pistons or Warriors.. So his record with low seeds is unknown, but his 2 seeds were 3-16 in 07', 11', 14', and 17', including a record choke, 2 record losses and a sweep.





All stats