Players on title teams who were the teams best offensive and defensive player?

[Nowitness]

How many guys can say they were the teams best player on both sides of the ball?

Of the last 20 years, the players I could think of would be LeBron (not for all his titles) and Duncan (without question for 03/05/07, 99 Robinson was still a monster on defense and 2014 Duncan had been relegated to defensive anchor and crunch time scorer).

Kawhi could have a case for both 2019 and 2014, but it isn't as clear cut.

Even Jordan, its hard to say he was definetly a better defensive player than Pippen, or Rodman (although he is still one of the greatest defensive guards ever).

Any other players you'd throw in throughout history? Walton in 77, Hakeem in 94/95 stand out for me as well.

[Baller789]

Anthony Davis

[Nowitness]

Anthony Davis

It was still LeBron on offence, put up as many points as AD whilst creating easier opportunities for AD than AD for James (as well as getting everyone else involved). But even if you wanted to argue AD, the gap isn't close to enough to say without question he was the better offensive player. AD was being guarded by tomato cans and had 4 games of less than 20 points, simply not good enough.

[8Ball]

Hakeem for both.

LeBron for all of his.

2000 Shaq

Kareem for 1 or 2.

Duncan for his early titles.


Pippen might have had it in 1994 if it wasn't for the robbery in ecsf

[TheCorporation]

Hakeem for both.

LeBron for all of his.

2000 Shaq

Kareem for 1 or 2.

Duncan for his early titles.


Pippen might have had it in 1994 if it wasn't for the robbery in ecsf

+1

LeBron x4
Duncan x3
•gap•
Shaq x2
Kareem x 2
Hakeem x2
Kawhi x1
Jordan x0

[SouBeachTalents]

Not surprised that when someone actually makes an interesting thread that's not about LeBron or Jordan, it gets very little response :lol

I think it's a very good question, and would like to hear from ISH who would you pick for best offensive & defensive player for the following teams

'01 & '02 Lakers
'06 Heat
'07 Spurs
'08 Celtics
'09 & '10 Lakers
'19 Raptors

[HoopsNY]

A lot of players come to mind. Hakeem, Kareem, MJ, LeBron, Kobe, Bird, Moses, Duncan, Shaq, etc.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Shaq in 2000, Kawhi in 2019, LeBron in 2016 are the three best examples of the 2000s.

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq in 2000, Kawhi in 2019, LeBron in 2016 are the three best examples of the 2000s.
Let me guess, Manu was the Spurs best offensive player in '03 :lol

[Nowitness]

A lot of players come to mind. Hakeem, Kareem, MJ, LeBron, Kobe, Bird, Moses, Duncan, Shaq, etc.

On what title team was Jordan the clear cut best defensive player? It is too close to Scott Pippen really to say who was better, at least without question so I wouldn’t include Jordan in this list.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Let me guess, Manu was the Spurs best offensive player in '03 :lol

I'm only naming guys who were actually dominant on both ends of the court. Duncan wasn't a dominant offensive player, he never averaged 4 assists and only one time he went over 23PPG. He never anchored a top 3 offense either.

[Nowitness]

I'm only naming guys who were actually dominant on both ends of the court. Duncan wasn't a dominant offensive player, he never averaged 4 assists and only one time he went over 23PPG. He never anchored a top 3 offense either.

In 03 he was the teams best passer and averaged 10 more points than the next leading scorer in the playoffs shooting 10% better, how was he clearly not the teams best offensive player ��

In the playoffs he averaged 24 and 5, so you’re last statement is a lie. Parker averaged 14/3 ��

[Axe]

Not kobe and curry, definitely.

[HoopsNY]

On what title team was Jordan the clear cut best defensive player? It is too close to Scott Pippen really to say who was better, at least without question so I wouldn’t include Jordan in this list.

1991 and 1993, Jordan was Chicago's best defensive player. I'd argue 1992 as well, but that's debatable.

[8Ball]

1991 and 1993, Jordan was Chicago's best defensive player. I'd argue 1992 as well, but that's debatable.

Scottie Pippen guarded Magic Johnson in 1991.

Jordan wasn't guarding Charles Barkley in 93 the entire series. It was either Horace Grant or Pippen.

[3ball]

.

Even Jordan, its hard to say he was definetly a better defensive player than Pippen, or Rodman





Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98'



DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

[HoopsNY]

Scottie Pippen guarded Magic Johnson in 1991.

Jordan wasn't guarding Charles Barkley in 93 the entire series. It was either Horace Grant or Pippen.

I love young stans such as yourself who consistently spread misinformation. MJ guarded Magic the majority of the time in the 1991 finals. Even if what you said was true, we're talking about the entire season. MJ was All-Defensive 1st team. Pippen was All-Defensive 2nd team.

Pippen didn't guard Barkley in 1993, it was Horace Grant who did. And when Game 3 came around, Phil switched and put MJ to guard KJ. On the plays that he guarded KJ, he shut him down.

Were you even around back then? How old are you? It's well known that between 1987-93, MJ was Chicago's best defensive player, including the years they made it to the finals. I'd give the exception to 1992. But in 1993, MJ finished 2nd in DPOY voting.

Why are you Bran stans so intellectually dishonest?

[8Ball]

Cobwebs in your head at this point you are making up history as you go along because you are an old fart and believe being an old fart allows you to lie about the past.

https://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_1991.html


In the Chicago’s first-ever NBA Finals appearance, Scottie Pippen took the primary responsibility of guarding Magic Johnson in 1991 versus the Los Angeles Lakers.

Pippen’s stellar defensive effort altered the scope of the series and set the standard for teams searching for a taller, more athletic point guard to shut down opposing point guards.

During the regular season, Pippen gave the term “point forward” a new meaning after leading the team in assists and ranking second in scoring, rebounding and steals. Quite simply, Scottie did it all.

But this is what you say today:


MJ guarded Magic the majority of the time in the 1991 finals.

The truth from the horse's mouth:


At first, Head Coach Phil Jackson designated Jordan to guard Johnson, with relief help from Pippen.

"It's tough to guard Magic and then go down and be expected to carry the load offensively," Jordan said following the series opener. "It's a challenge, but I have to do it."

However, things changed in Game 2 when the Bulls discovered a new defensive stopper. Pippen switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.

“I didn’t know what to expect to be honest,” Pippen said of the assignment.

“I had never defended Magic, and I had never defended a guy with his size and ability. So when Michael picked up that second foul, I just said I’d guard him.”

After game 1. Pippen guarded Magic the rest of the series.

You are proven to be wrong on this issue and the rest of your MJ opinion is 100% suspect at this point, since you will lie and make up the past while claiming being an old fart gives you that authority.


How is MJ the best defensive player on the title team if he isn't even guarding the best player?

If MJ isn't guarding Barkley than MJ can't be the team's best defensive player in that title run. Give it to Horace Grant for the finals.

[HoopsNY]

Cobwebs in your head at this point you are making up history as you go along because you are an old fart and believe being an old fart allows you to lie about the past.

https://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_1991.html



But this is what you say today:



The truth from the horse's mouth:



After game 1. Pippen guarded Magic the rest of the series.

Go and watch the series. The primary defender on Magic that series was Michael Jordan. Go watch all 5 games if you don't believe me. Simply count the possessions and you will see for yourself.


You are proven to be wrong on this issue and the rest of your MJ opinion is 100% suspect at this point, since you will lie and make up the past while claiming being an old fart gives you that authority.


Nope. Again, go and watch the series. Actually do some research before you spread lies on the internet from websites that falsely claim things that didn't happen. Btw, I remember a few years back someone did research and actually detailed the number of possessions that MJ guarded Magic. Have a read about it yourself:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1261129

And the games are available online I'm sure. Go and watch them yourself.


How is MJ the best defensive player on the title team if he isn't even guarding the best player?


Because this is another lie. Jordan usually guarded the best perimeter player. He did it against Dantley, Isiah, and Dumars, he did it with Magic, he did it with Drexler/Porter, he did it was KJ/Majerle. He also guarded Harper the years they played the Cavs. Even in 1996, when Harper went down with his injury, Phil switched MJ onto Gary Payton.

It's recency bias because Pippen guarded guys like Penny and Mark Jackson (forgetting that MJ guarded Reggie and Mullin). Meanwhile in 1996, Pippen didn't defend Penny well and on the plays MJ did, he shut Penny down (albeit a very small sample size.). But my point is, MJ was the best defensive player on Chicago from 1987-93.


If MJ isn't guarding Barkley than MJ can't be the team's best defensive player in that title run. Give it to Horace Grant for the finals.

Isn't that great. So ignore Price/Harper, ignore Drexler/Porter, ignore KJ/Majerle, Magic/Scott (and ironically Vlade Divac)? You don't know what you're talking about honestly.

[rmt]

I'm only naming guys who were actually dominant on both ends of the court. Duncan wasn't a dominant offensive player, he never averaged 4 assists and only one time he went over 23PPG. He never anchored a top 3 offense either.

The title thread asks for title teams' player who were the best offensive and defensive player - not who was a dominant offensive player in the league. Even then averaging 23.3 pts out of the team's 95.8 pts (24.3%) and 3.9 assists in RS and 24.7 pts/5.3 assists per playoff game is not dominant? He scored, rebounded, assisted and blocked more than any other teammate in 03 playoffs.

[Baller789]

Go and watch the series. The primary defender on Magic that series was Michael Jordan. Go watch all 5 games if you don't believe me. Simply count the possessions and you will see for yourself.



Nope. Again, go and watch the series. Actually do some research before you spread lies on the internet from websites that falsely claim things that didn't happen. Btw, I remember a few years back someone did research and actually detailed the number of possessions that MJ guarded Magic. Have a read about it yourself:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1261129

And the games are available online I'm sure. Go and watch them yourself.



Because this is another lie. Jordan usually guarded the best perimeter player. He did it against Dantley, Isiah, and Dumars, he did it with Magic, he did it with Drexler/Porter, he did it was KJ/Majerle. He also guarded Harper the years they played the Cavs. Even in 1996, when Harper went down with his injury, Phil switched MJ onto Gary Payton.

It's recency bias because Pippen guarded guys like Penny and Mark Jackson (forgetting that MJ guarded Reggie and Mullin). Meanwhile in 1996, Pippen didn't defend Penny well and on the plays MJ did, he shut Penny down (albeit a very small sample size.). But my point is, MJ was the best defensive player on Chicago from 1987-93.



Isn't that great. So ignore Price/Harper, ignore Drexler/Porter, ignore KJ/Majerle, Magic/Scott (and ironically Vlade Divac)? You don't know what you're talking about honestly.

8ball is just a serial liar. He only Googles his arguments because has never witnessed the golden era of the NBA. Then proceeds to cry nostalgia like a little brat because he has no counter arguments. Going delusional just to defend his boyfriend LBJ.

And oh, he just recently came out and admitted he's gay so that's that. :lol

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt did it in 1967 and as for 1972 he was by far the best defensive player and maybe he could be the best offensive player for the Lakers during that title playoff run as well as West shot awful throughout that playoff run and if I can recall West shot under 40 percent for the playoffs that year and Goodrich also only shot 43 percent from the field.


Compared to Wilt who averaged 14.8 on 56 per cent shooting that year throughout the playoffs and also averaged 20 points per game in the finals as the Lakers beat New York in 5 games with him winning the finals MVP.



I think Wilt could have scored 25 points a game that year if he seriously wanted too the only thing stopping him is that he had been asked to sacrifice his offence and play the Russell role by Sharman. So the Lakers could dominate the other teams using fastbreaks that Wilt started once he grabbed a rebound and made an outlet pass to West or Goodrich which from there they would usually score.

[HoopsNY]

8ball is just a serial liar. He only Googles his arguments because has never witnessed the golden era of the NBA. Then proceeds to cry nostalgia like a little brat because he has no counter arguments. Going delusional just to defend his boyfriend LBJ.

And oh, he just recently came out and admitted he's gay so that's that. :lol

I don't really care about his sexual preference. I just find it mind boggling how so many grown men on this forum not only act like children but are completely dishonest when it comes to this discussion.

We've seen LeBron fans repeatedly mention the same slogans and mantras, despite reasonable fans (kuniva, 97 Bulls, dankok, etc) responding to them and debunking the myths that they spread. When challenged with actual facts and analysis, there is no response, just a repeat of bombastic claims.

It's like the notion that MJ couldn't have a winning record without Pippen. The face value of it seems to be true, but then they take it a step a further into the whole "he couldn't win 50 games without Pippen," as if to say rookie Pippen is the reason for Chicago winning 50 games. They do it when they mention the 1st round as well.

And I don't think they're trolling 3ball. They honestly believe this stuff.