PER, WS/48, OBPM, peak VORP, PPG and TS say that Pippen is about #120 all-time, so [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

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3ball

12-19-2020, 10:46 PM

is there any other player whose career production rate rankings are far different than their perceived ranking?

Axe

12-19-2020, 10:47 PM

Yet pippen has won more playoff series than baldan's ever had in their respective careers

3ball

12-19-2020, 10:54 PM

Yet pippen has won more playoff series than baldan's ever had in their respective careers

Kyrie, Wade and AD have higher BPM, PER, and WS/48 than Pippen

Pippen's BPM is about the same as Love

aka mj goat

LeCola

12-20-2020, 01:15 AM

Kyrie, Wade and AD have higher BPM, PER, and WS/48 than Pippen

Pippen's BPM is about the same as Love

aka mj goat

You don't need stats to prove Wade and Davis are better then Pippen.

Pippen is just a better version of Iguodala, not a superstar.

8Ball

12-20-2020, 01:17 AM

Yet pippen has won more playoff series than baldan's ever had in their respective careers

Led a team to 55 wins too.

Jordan never did

ralph_i_el

12-20-2020, 01:32 AM

Defense

Round Mound

12-20-2020, 01:41 AM

Pippen only had 1 season and some games of another season to show how good he was without Jordan.

He sacrificed stats in order for the Bulls to win!

Where did he rank amongast the best players in the game for the 90s?

Well he won 55 games without Jordan while being the best player for the Bulls and an MVP Candidate.

These where his stats without MJ:

Pippen when Jordan left:

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)
Career 125.1 (45th)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1990-91 NBA .179 (15th)
1991-92 NBA .192 (12th)
1993-94 NBA .194 (9th)
1994-95 NBA .188 (10th)
1995-96 NBA .209 (9th)
1996-97 NBA .203 (9th)
1997-98 NBA .193 (8th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)
Career 63.2 (24th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th)
Career NBA 1.8 (34th)
Career 1.8 (37th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
Career NBA 2.3 (89th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (35th)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7 (10th)
1997-98 NBA 98.8 (12th)
Career NBA 101.5 (67th)
Career 101.5 (81st)

Wally450

12-20-2020, 01:54 AM

MJs 4 rebounds and 2 assists in a finals series shows that he’s a shit finals performer.

Kblaze8855

12-20-2020, 10:51 AM

Well as a man who once responded to a claim that you can’t judge a players total contribution with PPG with “Sure you can” it seems you’ve reached a level of wisdom where you can really understand how much of a burden a player like Scottie Pippen was. Sure he scored about as much as number of people in the hall of fame for no reason but their scoring and was in some title years the highest scoring second option in the nba and outscoring most teams #1 as well. But if your second option isn’t doing over 25 a night he’s obviously a problem even if only 3 people in the league are and one of them is you. Everything shy of a Shaq/Kobe type situation is having terrible help. I get that. A great player needs an elite offensive #2 to shine so let’s leave ol Pip in the trash and talk about someone who probably had a higher offensive ceiling.

It’s well known that Jordan created Pippen in his laboratory and deserves immense credit for it(despite his creation apparently being bad at basketball). He created his often shitty number two. My question for you is....

Why didn’t he turn Toni Kukoc into a better one?

Toni was older than Pippen when he got with Jordan but still young....especially for those days. He was more polished offensive skill set wise. A more natural scorer. A natural mismatch. 6’11” with post skills and handles. A guy who could punish smaller defenders and make every pass in the book:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FreshGracefulDotterel-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EarlyHotCrow-size_restricted.gif

I mean he was throwing 80 foot lobs right on the money like Jason Kidd:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SphericalTinyAplomadofalcon-size_restricted.gif

Kblaze8855

12-20-2020, 10:54 AM

But also a guy with one of the leagues best face up hesitation moves he used to blow by and dunk on damn near every big who tried to guard him. Mutombo, Zo, Ewing, Drob or whoever.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SpeedyGlumGalapagoshawk-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CluelessBelatedBarb-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TangibleBasicHoverfly-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScratchyDeepDrafthorse-size_restricted.gif

Blown by and/or banged on with underrated handles and underrated athleticism. Near 7 footer halfway jogging into free throw line dunks.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ArtisticSafeCopperbutterfly-size_restricted.gif

Why was his development so stifled when the GOAT star creator and teammate improver got there? Toni went from handling the ball a good bit...making plays...getting to really put his mark on games....a guy on a path to develop into a great second option....to a total role player.

We all know what Pettyboi Pippen did when Toni started being called on for the big shots but surely the much better leader and head of player development wouldn’t cramp his style right?

Kblaze8855

12-20-2020, 10:58 AM

Maybe not right. First game Jordan returns? Vs the Pacers. The same pacers Toni had dispatched famously several times. He had 20 something the last few times they played including his famous game winner. Not the one you’re thinking:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BronzeBronzeCanary-size_restricted.gif

Not this one either:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InnocentRequiredArctichare-size_restricted.gif

Or even this one.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LeftFabulousHarlequinbug-size_restricted.gif

I mean this game winner here:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SlipperyEntireAntbear-size_restricted.gif

I know it’s hard to keep up. He made so many before Jordan came back and stunted his growth.

So having personally defeated this team multiple times he watches Jordan come
back and not only lead them to the L....but take more shots than Toni took in any game of his career...going a shameful 7-28 in the close loss.

Toni who had proven to be capable of taking over games or just cruising to respectable production got tucked into Jordan’s back pocket. Within days a promising potential all star career was derailed while Jordan was taking 37 shots vs the Knicks to Tonis season low(for a non blowout full game) 6. At least till that point since soon after he would only get 5 as MJ took 26.

Kblaze8855

12-20-2020, 11:03 AM

After a few years of this treatment and being relegated to a few token attacking opportunities a game he had regressed into a role player so by the time he was asked to lead an awful team he was too far gone...not to mention older. He was with Jordan for what should have been his prime (26-30). He spent it getting spot duty playing off a guy who wanted all the shots. Jordan took 23-24 shots a game with Toni in a slower league than we have now. To take the same percentage of team shots Jordan did in the late 90s Harden would need to take 3 more shots a game than he did in 2020.

You often call this “burden” but on an all time great team that would win a crazy total of games no matter what style Jordan chose to play....is it a burden or a choice?

Might that “burden” have been lessened if he let talented potential stars like Toni operate at peak potential and lowered his own scoring a bit?

Perhaps such an approach wouldn’t have burned him out so quickly and the Bulls could have won even more. Not that 6 isn’t plenty. It’s about what an immensely talented squad should do in the era of expansion....after the great 80s teams fell off. But any old GOAT tier guy gets a bunch of rings they should get. Jordan may have missed out on some a more team oriented type might in such an easy era.

And letting Toni devolve into a streaky role player when he was ascending into possible stardom may be a big reason. Why do you think he failed to support Toni?

We know Pippen was jealous. So what was Jordan? Blind? Selfish? Racist?

What was the deal? Is he really as bad at spotting and developing talent as his time as an executive suggests? Kukoc should have been at LEAST Lamar Odom which in the watered down expansion 90s would have been another all star teammate for MJ.

If that’s the answer....Jordan just can’t see or develop talent....might that suggest Pippen is a product of his own hard work?

If not...why did MJ only create one star teammate despite having the raw material in Toni to create another and relieve that “burden”?

Could it be...he didn’t have a “burden” as much as....a desire to shoot a lot?

Im just looking for clarity and I heard you were the man to get it from.

AirBonner

12-20-2020, 11:13 AM

3ball has left the chat room

8Ball

12-20-2020, 11:25 AM

Dear lord.

It's elementary at this point.

Kblaze just dunking on a 4 foot midget right now....

Kblaze8855

12-20-2020, 11:41 AM

I’m just saying....

We have a winning obsessed guy always begging for more help in the media and threatening his gm in public over missed trade opportunities while both having the ability to manufacture star teammates and a willingness to stack the deck in his favor. And I mean that literally.

If you’re old enough to have watched the vhs Jordan videos there was a story from his college teammate Buzz Peterson told a story of catching Mike cheating his mother at Go Fish. He would change cards when she went to the bathroom or to check on dinner. Buzz Peterson caught Michael Jordan literally stacking the deck against his mother in a card game.

This low character, victory obsessed, apparent creator of superstars settled for only one when he was also in constant search for talented help and berated the players he had.

Its just weird to me. I hoped someone with a better grasp of the situation would help me out.

By the way...the guy who’s mom he cheated is now the assistant GM of the Hornets. Nepotism before qualification I suppose. Perhaps why he didn’t gift Kukoc with the ability he instilled in Pippen. Just...didn’t like the guy and gave it to a less deserving guy he got along with.

Just seems like a bad use of the ability to manufacture stars. But what do I know?

I don’t have the basketball savvy to draft Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, MKG, Frank the tank, Malik Monk, Vonleah, and Cody Zeller so who am I to even say who is talented and who isn’t?

tpols

12-20-2020, 11:45 AM

Rookie Kukoc was trusted over peak Pippen to take the most important shot of the season. That's why he threw a fit.

3ball

12-20-2020, 12:17 PM

3ball

12-20-2020, 12:22 PM

is there any other player whose career production rate rankings are far different than their perceived ranking?

Anyone?

Or did I just prove that pippen is ridiculously overrated and about #120 all-time based the the criteria everyone else is graded by (stats)?

3ball

12-20-2020, 12:49 PM

Kblaze8855

12-20-2020, 01:12 PM

Actually they are in the note app on my phone. That’s how I get them out so quickly. I have one about Orlando woolridge I might flesh out while not working in the morning and a pretty heinous one full of really flat line drive missed threes to get in order too. I have from about 3:30 to 9:30 every morning doing virtually nothing. I could bang out a good 20 a week in first gear. Maybe not this week though. I’m only working a couple days.

You might hear about Brad Sellers wasted potential in January though.

red1

12-20-2020, 01:35 PM

kblaze shitting on 3ball continuing the combo :applause:

reminded me of the fact that players smoked and drank at halftime according to chuck when he got to the league :roll:

Kblaze8855

12-20-2020, 01:40 PM

kblaze shitting on 3ball continuing the combo :applause:

reminded me of the fact that players smoked and drank at halftime according to chuck when he got to the league :roll:

Just wait till I get to my cocaine file. I’m not sure when it will be right to use it but it’s ready to go.

3ball

12-20-2020, 01:41 PM

kblaze shitting on 3ball continuing the combo :applause:

reminded me of the fact that players smoked and drank at halftime according to chuck when he got to the league :roll:

I haven't read his lengthy derails and only care about whether the OP can be refuted

It obviously cannot, because it's sheer statistics and historical record.. And the length of Kblaze's derails shows how hurtful the OP's facts are

So I'm merely informing people of the facts - in this case, pippen is the only player whose perceived ranking is literally 100 spots above his production rate statistical rank (due to winning spotlight inflation and also simply being associated with MJ)

Carry on

red1

12-20-2020, 01:42 PM

Just wait till I get to my cocaine file. I’m not sure when it will be right to use it but it’s ready to go.

:oldlol:

I haven't read his lengthy derails and only care about whether the OP can be refuted

It obviously cannot, because it's sheer statistics and historical record..

I'm merely informing you guys of the facts - in this case, pippen is the only player whose perceived ranking is literally 100 spots above his production rate statistical rank (due to winning spotlight inflation and also simply being associated with MJ)

Carry on

then why does every player in nba history except jordan suck? can you explain how that works?

8Ball

12-20-2020, 02:06 PM

Btw, the longer Kblaze's derail, the more viable the thread is and the more his jimmies are rustled.

He doesn't have this shit on excel and program like I do - he's simply shook and expounding off the dome to my one-liner OP's

indeed, if the stats say pippen ranks 120th, then why the hell doesn't he rank 120th?

Actually they are in the note app on my phone. That’s how I get them out so quickly. I have one about Orlando woolridge I might flesh out while not working in the morning and a pretty heinous one full of really flat line drive missed threes to get in order too. I have from about 3:30 to 9:30 every morning doing virtually nothing. I could bang out a good 20 a week in first gear. Maybe not this week though. I’m only working a couple days.

You might hear about Brad Sellers wasted potential in January though.

:roll:

Oh boy Kblaze can't even be bothered to have an excel file for that crap.

On his phone note app ready to dumpster 3ball at a moment's notice. :oldlol:

3ball

12-20-2020, 02:26 PM

:oldlol:

then why does every player in nba history except jordan suck? can you explain how that works?

No, just pippen sucks and some other overrated players

No one paid attention to how pippen played from game to game because everyone knew it was around 15-20 points and mj was the guy with 30-60, maybe even 69

So remember when Paul George got destroyed for having a couple bad games?.. pippen did that all the time but no one noticed or cared because it was all about MJ..

And the defense never gave 2 bird shits about pippen, so only MJ faced defenses geared solely at him for his entire career

Axe

12-20-2020, 04:51 PM

Op getting wrekt in his shitty thread

3ball

12-22-2020, 09:55 PM

Op getting wrekt in his shitty thread

Everyone afraid to engage 3ball

SouBeachTalents

12-22-2020, 10:01 PM

3ball

12-22-2020, 10:03 PM

Don't let this deranged fakkit spam the board with threads about guys who haven't been relevant to the league in 20 years. The offseason is one thing, but it's the start of a brand new season, absolutely no reason we need to have threads about Jordan/Pippen every day

Quit bitching the season hasn't started yet

Your precious 3-point contest devoid of pure scoring (basketball) is safe from real basketball talk

3ball

12-22-2020, 10:07 PM

.
Thread Cliffs:

Only Pippen's career production rate rankings are far different than his perceived ranking, due to winning spotlight inflation and association with Air Jordan (goat brand)

trada7029

12-22-2020, 10:51 PM

.

Thread Cliffs:

Only Pippen's career production rate rankings are far different than his perceived ranking, due to winning spotlight inflation and association with Air Jordan (goat brand)

:bowdown:

3ball

12-23-2020, 03:11 AM

Kblaze8855

12-23-2020, 06:17 AM

Sulico

12-23-2020, 06:56 AM

No one addressed a perfectly viable question

is there any other player whose career production rate rankings are far different than their perceived ranking like Pippen?

Pippen's production rates rank about 120th (PER, WS/48, OBPM, peak VORP, efficiency), but he's perceived top 30 by TV

What's the point of addressing your posts if you going to say that stats that doesn't support your narrative are trash.
Any comparable player can be better or worse than any other player if you pick and choose stats that you use and stats that you ignore.

You seem really high on stats like OBPM, efficiency or WS/48 here, but ofcourse the minute someone would mention that peak Lebron had those stats higher that Jordan, you will start to ignore them.

By and large you don't use stats, and there is no reason for you to post them like you do. All you have is your idol and your opinion that he is so much better than the others. All your 29K posts could be the same sentence - "Jordan is the best and I love him so much", and nothing would change for this board, except maybe a little bit less butthurt for those who disagree with you.

3ball

12-23-2020, 07:40 AM

What's the point of addressing your posts if you going to say that stats that doesn't support your narrative are trash.
Any comparable player can be better or worse than any other player if you pick and choose stats that you use and stats that you ignore.

You seem really high on stats like OBPM, efficiency or WS/48 here, but ofcourse the minute someone would mention that peak Lebron had those stats higher that Jordan, you will start to ignore them.

By and large you don't use stats, and there is no reason for you to post them like you do. All you have is your idol and your opinion that he is so much better than the others. All your 29K posts could be the same sentence - "Jordan is the best and I love him so much", and nothing would change for this board, except maybe a little bit less butthurt for those who disagree with you.

The only counter you made was to say that Lebron is #2 in all the stats that im trashing pippen for..

However, no team will use a system that their franchise player can't produce well in

So the #1 option's skillset dictates a team's style of play, which impacts winning - that's why winning matters for #1 options - it's their style that ultimately determines team style, strategic possibilities and the caliber of basketball played.. this allowance of higher team ceiling is partly why kobe > bran despite the weaker stats

Otoh, 2nd options don't impact style of play like the top guys - they're just followers whose stats can be compared directly - that's why Pippen sucks