What seasons did LeBron have help comparable to the 1996-1998 Bulls?

[Gus Hemmingway]

Help that was so good that MJ:

- Went for 27/6/4 on 41% in 1996, got outplayed by 3 different players and still ended up winning the ring (Lowest PER EVER for a FMVP)

- Went for 4 rebs 2 assists on 43% in 1998 and still won the championship because Pippen was getting FMVP consideration after the first 4 games (Worst Rebs/assist combo EVER for a FMVP)


Which seasons was LeBron's help that good? :confusedshrug:

[Thenameless]

It isn't so much the help, as it is the competition. Jordan didn't go through any all time teams like the 80's Lakers and Celtics, and the recent GSW. The Drexler Blazers, Payton/Kemp Sonics, Barkley Suns, and Stockton/Malone Jazz just don't measure up.

[3ball]

.
Lebron had far greater offensive help



Career Rankings


PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185


OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107


WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129


Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250


Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250


True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250
Horace Grant......NR top 250


^^^ Despite the far superior offensive production from teammates shown above, lebron has zero #1 offenses in 17 years - so we know he couldn't win with the 90's Bulls, who had four juggernaut #1 offenses (domination)

[Young X]

You have to look at the context of those series. The '96 finals was a low scoring series with the two best defensive teams going at it.

Pippen scored 16 PPG and shot 34% with a 43 TS%, Kukoc averaged 13 PPG and shot a 52 TS%. The entire team struggled offensively.

27 PPG on 54 TS% doesn't look great at first but it was still the best by far on his team.

[HoopsNY]

It isn't so much the help, as it is the competition. Jordan didn't go through any all time teams like the 80's Lakers and Celtics, and the recent GSW. The Drexler Blazers, Payton/Kemp Sonics, Barkley Suns, and Stockton/Malone Jazz just don't measure up.

The Sonics had Schrempf-GP-Kemp. Schrempf was an All-Star just the year prior and won All-NBA honors. People conveniently forget that Schrempf was injured and suffered a knee fracture that season, which forced him to miss six weeks.

He was a high level player and up to that point, Schrempf was putting up 19/5/4 with a 63% TS%. Seattle basically had 3 All-NBA level players, and Schrempf likely would have repeated that performance had he not had that injury. But Schrempf still played well in the playoffs and put up 16/5/4 on 56% TS%.

And what's up with this idea that the Bulls didn't run into the same all-time teams like in the 80s, forgetting that NBA expansion spread out talent in the league after 1988? Why is it that if Chicago with MJ and Co. were in the early to mid 80s, that they would somehow be the only team that wouldn't have access to another star?

It's like the same Euro players argument where teams like the Spurs drafted Manu in the second round, but Chicago wouldn't have had similar players if there were more European players in the draft? Meanwhile, they drafted Toni Kukoc in the 2nd round.

This is just compounded intellectual dishonesty.

[97 bulls]

The Sonics had Schrempf-GP-Kemp. Schrempf was an All-Star just the year prior and won All-NBA honors. People conveniently forget that Schrempf was injured and suffered a knee fracture that season, which forced him to miss six weeks.

He was a high level player and up to that point, Schrempf was putting up 19/5/4 with a 63% TS%. Seattle basically had 3 All-NBA level players, and Schrempf likely would have repeated that performance had he not had that injury. But Schrempf still played well in the playoffs and put up 16/5/4 on 56% TS%.

And what's up with this idea that the Bulls didn't run into the same all-time teams like in the 80s, forgetting that NBA expansion spread out talent in the league after 1988? Why is it that if Chicago with MJ and Co. were in the early to mid 80s, that they would somehow be the only team that wouldn't have access to another star?

It's like the same Euro players argument where teams like the Spurs drafted Manu in the second round, but Chicago wouldn't have had similar players if there were more European players in the draft? Meanwhile, they drafted Toni Kukoc in the 2nd round.

This is just compounded intellectual dishonesty.

I still dont see why expansion is even an argument. The Showtime Lakers won a Championship in 88 (an expansion year). The Pistons championships were won during expansion. The Bulls beat BOTH of those teams in 91 And they beat them convincingly. Both of those teams could only get one fluke win off the Bulls.

Why doesnt expansion penalize the 88 Lakers or the 89 Pistons? Can somebody please answer this question?

[Baller789]

I still dont see why expansion is even an argument. The Showtime Lakers won a Championship in 88 (an expansion year). The Pistons championships were won during expansion. The Bulls beat BOTH of those teams in 91 And they beat them convincingly. Both of those teams could only get one fluke win off the Bulls.

Why doesnt expansion penalize the 88 Lakers or the 89 Pistons? Can somebody please answer this question?

Because of erm... Agenda

[HoopsNY]

I still dont see why expansion is even an argument. The Showtime Lakers won a Championship in 88 (an expansion year). The Pistons championships were won during expansion. The Bulls beat BOTH of those teams in 91 And they beat them convincingly. Both of those teams could only get one fluke win off the Bulls.

Why doesnt expansion penalize the 88 Lakers or the 89 Pistons? Can somebody please answer this question?

They can't and won't answer. Because what goes for MJ doesn't go for everyone else. I mean, do you see them using the same logic with other all time greats when it comes to expansion? We've heard on this forum how MJ might not even be top 10, but guys like Russell and Kareem are? One of those guys played before the NBA/ABA merger while the other had many of his peak years prior to it.

But my point was that even if we use the expansion argument, expansion didn't only affect Chicago where the spread of talent was concerned. It's completely naive to think that if there was no expansion, that all the other teams would get a superstar, all-star, or key role player, EXCEPT Chicago.

Bran stans won't answer any of this because they can't go that far. It's too deep of a topic for them.

[8Ball]

Expansion argument is not necessary to prove that Jordan's finals opponents in the 90s are nothing compared to Spurs / Golden State / 80s Lakers and Celtics calibre teams.

2012 OKC Thunder is tougher finals opponent than any 90s finals opponent.

Jordan stans can't stomach the fact that LeBron had way way tougher finals opponents.

If you lined up those 90s finals opponents, LeBron's early cavs would win half those chips.

[8Ball]

The Sonics had Schrempf-GP-Kemp. Schrempf was an All-Star just the year prior and won All-NBA honors. People conveniently forget that Schrempf was injured and suffered a knee fracture that season, which forced him to miss six weeks.

He was a high level player and up to that point, Schrempf was putting up 19/5/4 with a 63% TS%. Seattle basically had 3 All-NBA level players, and Schrempf likely would have repeated that performance had he not had that injury. But Schrempf still played well in the playoffs and put up 16/5/4 on 56% TS%.

And what's up with this idea that the Bulls didn't run into the same all-time teams like in the 80s, forgetting that NBA expansion spread out talent in the league after 1988? Why is it that if Chicago with MJ and Co. were in the early to mid 80s, that they would somehow be the only team that wouldn't have access to another star?

It's like the same Euro players argument where teams like the Spurs drafted Manu in the second round, but Chicago wouldn't have had similar players if there were more European players in the draft? Meanwhile, they drafted Toni Kukoc in the 2nd round.

This is just compounded intellectual dishonesty.

Oh my God the Sonics!

Shawn Kemp made 0 All-NBA 1st teams. Schrempf made 1 all nba 3rd team 1 time in his career.


Vs
2012
Kevin Durant 1st team all-nba
Westbrook 2nd team all-nba
Harden 6th man of the year
Ibaka All-NBA defensive 1st team


And that was one of Jordan's fiercest finals opponents?

[HoopsNY]

Expansion argument is not necessary to prove that Jordan's finals opponents in the 90s are nothing compared to Spurs / Golden State / 80s Lakers and Celtics calibre teams.

2012 OKC Thunder is tougher finals opponent than any 90s finals opponent.

Jordan stans can't stomach the fact that LeBron had way way tougher finals opponents.

If you lined up those 90s finals opponents, LeBron's early cavs would win half those chips.

Nice try. You're conveniently mentioning OKC as if James Harden was the elite player he is now. Harden was a 6th man and in the finals he put up 12 PPG on 37%. Not to mention, no mention of LeBron's teammates that included Wade and Bosh.

Suddenly the HOF arguments don't count. :lol

[8Ball]

2012 OKC

Kevin Durant 1st team all-nba
Westbrook 2nd team all-nba
Harden 6th man of the year
Ibaka All-NBA defensive 1st team

1996 Sonics:

Payton All-NBA 2nd team
Kemp All-NBA 2nd team
Schrempf All-NBA 3rd team


Still waiting for a Jordan finals opponent that is clear cut better than 2012 OKC Thunder.

2012 Miami
LeBron 1st team
Wade 3rd team vs 1st team All-NBA Pippen
Bosh about as good as Horace Grant or Rodman


So LeBron beat a 2012 OKC team, which is better than any Jordan finals opponent with a cast of players worst than 96 bulls.

No matter how you cut it. LeBron faced and beat much tougher finals opponents. I didn't even touch 2016 Warriors yet.

[HoopsNY]

Oh my God the Sonics!

Shawn Kemp made 0 All-NBA 1st teams. Schrempf made 1 all nba 3rd team 1 time in his career.


Vs
2012
Kevin Durant 1st team all-nba
Westbrook 2nd team all-nba
Harden 6th man of the year
Ibaka All-NBA defensive 1st team


And that was one of Jordan's fiercest finals opponents?

Who cares if Kemp made 0 All-NBA 1st teams? He was All-NBA 2nd team. Did you ever watch peak Kemp play? He was explosive, could rebound, run the floor, etc. Do you determine the strength of team simply based on team accolades? That doesn't make sense when the league champions isn't always the ones with the most accolades.

The fact is that Schrempf was an All-NBA selection and all-star just the year prior, but an injury broke that stride. Schrempf was putting up nearly 19/5/4 up to that injury in the '96 season. He still maintained nearly as high a level of play even after returning.

But this is the half-baked logic that these Bran stans have. They live in the now and then try to employ revisionist history. Not only did Seattle have 3 All-NBA level players, but they had Hersey Hawkins and Sam Perkins on that team, too, that brought veteran leadership. Both of those guys could score 14-17 PPG (Hawkins was a 20+ PPG scorer alongside Barkley), but obviously took a backseat to Schrempf, Payton, and Kemp.

Bran stans expect that when you stack a team, that players automatically put up the same numbers as they did before. It's why they shit on Chris Bosh and Kevin Love.

Let's look at certain spreads:

2012 Thunder

W/L %: .712
SRS: 6.44
ORTG: 2nd
DRTG: 11th

1996 Sonics

W/L %: .780
SRS: 7.40
ORTG: 8th
DRTG: 2nd

So now the Sonics aren't as good when they posted a better win %, DRTG, and SRS than OKC? The Sonics were a fierce defensive team, and they were still 8th offensively.

[Hey Yo]

Nice try. You're conveniently mentioning OKC as if James Harden was the elite player he is now. Harden was a 6th man and in the finals he put up 12 PPG on 37%. Not to mention, no mention of LeBron's teammates that included Wade and Bosh.

Suddenly the HOF arguments don't count. :lol
That's better than Love's performance in the 2016 Finals and yet they were still referred to as a superteam.

Ibaka was runner-up DPOY and led the league in blocks.

KD was the reigning 3x scoring champion.

OKC were the favorites going into the series.

Bosh was not a HOF lock before the 2012 Finals were played. He just choked the year before, remember?

[Gudo]

Bunch of cheerleaders going back and forth. Just appreciate both players and the game. That’s it.

[Bronbron23]

Help that was so good that MJ:

- Went for 27/6/4 on 41% in 1996, got outplayed by 3 different players and still ended up winning the ring (Lowest PER EVER for a FMVP)

- Went for 4 rebs 2 assists on 43% in 1998 and still won the championship because Pippen was getting FMVP consideration after the first 4 games (Worst Rebs/assist combo EVER for a FMVP)


Which seasons was LeBron's help that good? :confusedshrug:

Low Iq as usual, even for a troll like yourself. Mj played in the triangle and bron mostly played a ball dominant style system. It's why someone like westbrook who isnt an amazing passer can get 10 assists a game. The other factor was mj had those stats in the mid late 90's where it was a physical, slow half court game. Throw bron in the triangle in that era in his mid thirties and his stats would be similar.

[Gus Hemmingway]

Have we figured this out yet?

[3ball]

Robert Horry averaged 18/9 on great efficiency in the 94' Finals - that's prime pippen numbers - and JR Smith averaged 18/8 on great efficiency in the 15' ECSF

So how come prime pippen = peak Horry or Smith, while prime Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable?

[Manny98]

LeBron never played on a team that could win 55 games without him so never

[3ball]

LeBron never played on a team that could win 55 games without him so never

Ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator, like nash or cp3 teams in 12' or 13'

So Lebron never played a good brand of ball like Lowry, Duncan, KD or Jordan that was considered "good basketball" regardless who was on the court

Carry on.. bulls were 2nd round after 3-peating, aka historic drop-off

[Gus Hemmingway]

Ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator, like nash or cp3 teams in 12' or 13'

So Lebron never played a good brand of ball like Lowry, Duncan, KD or Jordan that was considered "good basketball" regardless who was on the court

Carry on.. bulls were 2nd round after 3-peating, aka historic drop-off

LeBron won in 2016 without any all stars

[3ball]

LeBron won in 2016 without any all stars

Do you realize how huge Curry was in the Warriors'offense?... Curry had peak Jordan numbers in 2016 and was unanimous MVP

So it's impossible to lose when your 2nd option destroys the opponent's "Jordan" like Kyrie did Curry..

the Cavs would've been expected to sweep if everyone knew in advance that MVP Curry wouldn't exist... So Lebron should be knocked for needing 7 games in light of the Kyrie/Curry mismatch, especially since he wet the bed for the first 4 games (24 and 6 TO's)

[RRR3]

Nice try. You're conveniently mentioning OKC as if James Harden was the elite player he is now. Harden was a 6th man and in the finals he put up 12 PPG on 37%. Not to mention, no mention of LeBron's teammates that included Wade and Bosh.

Suddenly the HOF arguments don't count. :lol
If you want to pretend Harden wasn’t already All-Star level in 2012, that’s fine but you’ll find no stats supporting your cause besides the finals in which he clearly choked. Harden was seen the same way people see Ginobili in 2012. No one punished him for coming off the bench the dude was already a stud.

[3ball]

If you want to pretend Harden wasn’t already All-Star level in 2012, that’s fine but you’ll find no stats supporting your cause besides the finals in which he clearly choked. Harden was seen the same way people see Ginobili in 2012. No one punished him for coming off the bench the dude was already a stud.

How did his stats in 2012 compare to today?

When was his first all-star game?

Btw, klay's first all-star game was 2015, while Kyrie was MVP in 2014 ASG.... so Kyrie destroys klay (and curry in finals), which is why the Cavs were favored heading into 15' and 16' regular seasons

[red1]

Im very very high on scottie pippen




very underrated player me thinks

[3ball]

Im very very high on scottie pippen




very underrated player me thinks

Lower PER, BPM and WS/48 than 4 of lebron's teammates (AD, Wade, Kyrie, Love)

So lebron had 4 teammates with superior production than Pippen, yet zero #1 offenses to Jordan's 4...

That proves lebron's inferiority more than anything

[8Ball]

LeBron never played on a team that could win 55 games without him so never

Yup.

Still waiting on an answer from op question.

No answer to be found yet.

[red1]

Lower PER, BPM and WS/48 than 4 of lebron's teammates (AD, Wade, Kyrie, Love)

So lebron had 4 teammates with superior production than Pippen, yet zero #1 offenses to Jordan's 4...

That proves lebron's inferiority more than anything

I think pippen is better than malone or stockton.



so in other words pippen is better than mj's biggest finals rival in malone.

[Baller789]

Yup.

Still waiting on an answer from op question.

No answer to be found yet.

This style seems familiar to me.

Right?

[HoopsNY]

If you want to pretend Harden wasn’t already All-Star level in 2012, that’s fine but you’ll find no stats supporting your cause besides the finals in which he clearly choked. Harden was seen the same way people see Ginobili in 2012. No one punished him for coming off the bench the dude was already a stud.

Interesting, so no account for Miami also having 3 all-star level players? Lemme guess, Bosh wasn't an all-star level player? Isn't it convenient to look at the opposing team without accounting for your own?

Harden gets the benefit of the doubt, never having made an All-Star team, because of what he did in the future, but guys like Bosh and Schrempf don't get the same regard for what they already did in their careers. Nice.

Harden averaged 16 PPG on 36% shooting in the Lakers series, guess that's "all-star" worthy, too?

Schrempf was an all-star just the season prior, winning All-NBA honors, and started the season putting up 19/5/4 on 63% TS%, yet he doesn't get the same level of respect for 1996 as Harden does in 2012. I wonder why. :confusedshrug:

And Schrempf played better than Harden did in the finals against a much tougher defense. In addition, Seattle had a better Win %, SRS, and DRTG by a mile to OKC's.

I'm not here to say that what LeBron faced in the finals was garbage. I just think these arguments are incredibly stupid. Bran stans are here day in saying that MJ's finals competition "sucked", then throw out parallels that don't prove anything.

[jbryan1984]

Ever since Miami, he has always had Allstar and/or All NBA help. Those first 7 years in Cleveland though.... Man, that was pretty much all him. I watched just about every minute of it. His help varied from Larry Hughes to a shell of himself Ben Wallace to 38 year old Shaq.

[WhiteKyrie]

2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2020

[Gus Hemmingway]

2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2020

Which of those teams win 55 games without LeBron