Scottie Pippen Stats Without MJ...A Top 10 Player in the Game in the 90's?

[Round Mound]

These where his stats without MJ:

Pippen when Jordan left:

Raw Stats;

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG and 0.8 BPG!

55 Wins (2 Less Than With MJ The Year Prior!)

Advanced Stats and Metrics

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
*1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
*1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)
Career 125.1 (45th)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1990-91 NBA .179 (15th)
1991-92 NBA .192 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA .194 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA .188 (10th)
1995-96 NBA .209 (9th)
1996-97 NBA .203 (9th)
1997-98 NBA .193 (8th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
*1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)
Career 63.2 (24th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th)
Career NBA 1.8 (34th)
Career 1.8 (37th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
*1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
Career NBA 2.3 (89th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
*1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
*1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (35th)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
*1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7 (10th)
1997-98 NBA 98.8 (12th)
Career NBA 101.5 (67th)
Career 101.5 (81st)


*Notice The Year 1993-94 and some games of the next season STATS WITHOUT MJ!

[GrayGoat]

3ball stay away

[Round Mound]

3ball stay away

lol ...Do you consider Pippen a Top 10 Player in the 90's?

[GrayGoat]

lol ...Do you consider Pippen a Top 10 Player in the 90's?
Absolutely. 54 wins and a call away from conference finals. Ewing did worse while being the 1st option his entire career

[Round Mound]

Absolutely. 54 wins and a call away from conference finals. Ewing did worse while being the 1st option his entire career

55 Wins acutally. Overall he was a Top 10 Player in the 90's. The year without MJ he was easily around Top 5 or 6!

[3ball]

lol ...Do you consider Pippen a Top 10 Player in the 90's?


who cares about top 10 when AD/Wade peaked as arguably the best player in the game.. and Kyrie had a goat playoff run and Finals in 16' and 17'... All three have higher BPM, PER and WS/48 then pippen

It's no comparison...

And the stats you posted would rank as the worst peak of any all-time great

Larry Hughes can match that and many other guys like Marc Gasol or KJ or Stockton

You wasted a bunch of ink to say that Pippen's best year was top 10 in numerous categories - whooptiwhoop - most good players peak out around there and many peak much higher..

so your post means nothing and doesn't prove pippen is better than a Marc Gasol/KJ level player (and actually, he's nowhere near KJ)

and you posted nothing for the playoffs because virtually EVERYONE was better than pippen in the playoffs because pippen is the worst playoff performer, maybe ever.. none of the so-called greats have anywhere near the horrible performances as Pippen

Ultimately, your post is 6th grade book report level that means nothing except that pippen was about as good as Marc gasol and worse in the playoffs

[Round Mound]

The stats you posted would rank as the worst peak of any all-time great

Larry Hughes can match that and many other guys like Marc Gasol or KJ or Stockton

You wasted a bunch of ink to say that Pippen's best year was a top 10 in numerous categories - whooptiwhoop - most good players peak out around there and many peak much higher.. so your post means nothing and doesn't prove pippen is better than a Marc Gasol/KJ level player (and actually, he's nowhere near KJ)

Just an all-round 6th grade book report post that means nothing except that pippen was about as good as Marc gasol

:facepalm :rolleyes::no:Stupdity you can't compare Pippen to those other players they did not dominate more than 1 or 2 areas of the game while Pippen would dominate on 4 out of 5.

The thing is Pippen could score better (not shoot but score) at 49% FG on 22 PPG than both Stockton and KJ while nearly getting 9 RPG and playmaking at 5.6 APG AND BEING THE BEST DEFENDER AT HIS POSITION.

In the Last 30 years Pippen is the ONLY SF to Lead The League In Defensive Rating (The Rest, All Big Men).

No to mention his DUNKING, SLASHING, FINISHING AND GOING COAST TO COAST abilities etc

[3ball]

:facepalm :rolleyes::no:Stupdity you can't compare Pippen to those other players they did not dominate more than 1 or 2 areas of the game while Pippen would dominate on 4 out of 5.

The thing is Pippen could score better (not shoot but score) at 49% FG on 22 PPG than both Stockton and KJ while nearly getting 9 RPG and playmaking at 5.6 APG AND BEING THE BEST DEFENDER AT HIS POSITION.

In the Last 30 years Pippen is the ONLY SF to Lead The League In Defensive Rating (The Rest, All Big Men).

No to mention his DUNKING, SLASHING, FINISHING AND GOING COAST TO COAST abilities etc


Pippen never dominated ANY area so you're just a liar that never watched

Pippen never dominated scoring (17 ppg)

He never dominated passing (5 apg)

He never dominated rebounding (6 rpg)
.stop lying about this guy

Again, your stats show that pippen was a Marc Gasol level player...

and you posted nothing for the playoffs because virtually EVERYONE was better than pippen in the playoffs because pippen is the worst playoff performer, maybe ever.. none of the so-called greats have anywhere near the horrible performances as Pippen

[Round Mound]

Pippen never dominated ANY area so you're just a liar that never watched

Pippen never dominated scoring (17 ppg)

He never dominated passing (5 apg)

He never dominated rebounding (6 rpg)
.stop lying about this guy

Again, your stats show that pippen was a Marc Gasol level player...

You are Funny...:roll: Notice how you post the career stats as a 2nd option when Pippen ONLY HAD 1 YEAR TO PROOVE HOW GOOD HE WAS...WITHOUT THE BALL HOGG and WHAT HAPPENED?

The Best ALL AROUND STATS for ANY SF of the 90's AND ONLY 2 WINS LESS THAN WITH MJ.

You are close to Skyp Bayless levels of stupidity when you underrate Pippen.

[3ball]

You are Funny...:roll: Notice how you post the career stats as a 2nd option when Pippen ONLY HAD 1 YEAR TO PROOVE HOW GOOD HE WAS...WITHOUT THE BALL HOGG and WHAT HAPPENED?

The Best ALL AROUND STATS for ANY SF of the 90's AND ONLY 2 WINS LESS THAN WITH MJ.

You are close to Skyp Bayless levels of stupidity when you underrate Pippen.
Without the triangle and association with the goat, Pippen was demoted in 1999 to 3rd option (more stacked than the bulls ever were), but lost in the 1st Round with a big 3 (pippen averaged 18 on 32%, aka standard for him)

Pippen sucked and his playoff record and weak peak regular season stats prove it

[Round Mound]

Without the triangle and association with the goat, 99' Pippen was instantly demoted to 3rd option (more stacked than the bulls ever were) but in the 1st Round with a big 3

Pippen sucked and his playoff record and weak peak regular season stats prove it

Again you are doing the total per game stats with MJ next to him and Pippen being the 2nd fiddle for most of his career. DO THE STATS for PIPPEN's PRIME AND PEAK WHEN HE HAD NO MJ!

He was passed his prime in 99. That's like saying MJ in 2002 and 2003. I think MJ is the greatest ever btw.

[3ball]

35-year Jordan carried Pippen to the title, but 35-year Barkley and Hakeem couldn't carry pippen out of the 1st Round

Only MJ could win with pippen

And again, pippen's peak regular season stats = Marc Gasol or KJ, as your OP shows

And he was horrible in the playoffs... So he sucked for a sidekick with 6 rings

[Round Mound]

35-year Jordan carried Pippen to the title, but 35-year Barkley and Hakeem couldn't carry pippen out of the 1st Round

Only MJ could win with pippen

And again, pippen's peak regular season stats = Marc Gasol or KJ

And he was horrible in the playoffs... So he sucked for a sidekick with 6 rings

Some players have better longevity than others but its usually after age 33 that most players begin to loose their jumping ability, agility, potence, they gain more fat etc. Hakeem did not last that long either as Barkley did he was not even close to the 94 and 95 Hakeem the years with Pippen and Barkley.

Again, you are doing the total stats per game when Pippen was side kick with MJ being the player that took 24 25 26 FGAs PG.

Had Pippen played for another team from 90 to 98 (his prime) He would have averaged like 22-23 ppg, 48% FG, 8-9 rpg, 5-6 apg, 2.5-3 spg and 1 bpg for his career!

[3ball]

Some players have better longevity than others but its usually after age 33 that most players begin to loose their jumping ability, agility, potence, they gain more fat etc. Hakeem did not last that long either as Barkley did he was not even close to the 94 and 95 Hakeem the years with Pippen and Barkley.

Again, you are doing the total stats per game when Pippen was side kick with MJ being the player that took 24 25 26 FGAs PG.

Had Pippen played for another team from 90 to 98 (his prime) He would have averaged like 22-23 ppg, 48% FG, 8-9 rpg, 5-6 apg, 2.5-3 spg and 1 bpg for his career!

Pippen couldn't handle the shots he got

Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals, but you think he commanded MORE shots?... No coach on earth would agree with you

17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs...... but you think he deserves more shots?... 19 on 42% in 6 Finals, but he should get MORE shots???.. are you crazy?!

16 on 40% in 2 Finals, 4 ECF, and the 7-game war in the 92' ECSF... 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons.. 15 on 40% during the historic upset of the #1 SRS Cavs that started the whole thing

50% true shooting in the 93' Playoffs (45% in the Finals) with lower PER, WS/48, and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade - but he deserves more shots???... Lol can I have what you're smoking

[iamgine]

These where his stats without MJ:

Pippen when Jordan left:

Raw Stats;

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG and 0.8 BPG!

55 Wins (2 Less Than With MJ The Year Prior!)

Advanced Stats and Metrics

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
*1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
*1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)
Career 125.1 (45th)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1990-91 NBA .179 (15th)
1991-92 NBA .192 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA .194 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA .188 (10th)
1995-96 NBA .209 (9th)
1996-97 NBA .203 (9th)
1997-98 NBA .193 (8th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
*1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)
Career 63.2 (24th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th)
Career NBA 1.8 (34th)
Career 1.8 (37th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
*1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
Career NBA 2.3 (89th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
*1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
*1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (35th)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
*1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7 (10th)
1997-98 NBA 98.8 (12th)
Career NBA 101.5 (67th)
Career 101.5 (81st)


*Notice The Year 1993-94 and some games of the next season STATS WITHOUT MJ!



Lets see, his competitors would be:

Shaq, Malone, Hakeem, Barkley, Jordan, Robinson, Payton, Ewing, Stockton, Drexler.

I guess he's in the mix of those players.

So a top 10 player in the 90s seems accurate. I'd rank him 7th/8th.

[3ball]

Lets see, his competitors would be:

Shaq, Malone, Hakeem, Barkley, Jordan, Robinson, Payton, Ewing, Stockton, Drexler.

I guess he's in the mix of those players.

So a top 10 player in the 90s seems accurate. I'd rank him 7th/8th.

Compare apples to apples

So compare pippen's peak (94' or 92') to Hakeem's peak

Or Drexler's peak

Or shaq's peak

Or anyone's peak

Pippen..... doesn't...... compare

This isn't my opinion - it's statistical fact

Ultimately, prime Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable by regular players, but pippen's weak production is routinely matched by bums like Horry (94' Finals) or JR Smith (15' ECF).. Pippen's peak is bummy (22 ppg) and matched by 05' Hughes, Marc Gasol, KJ and tons of players... That's the caliber pippen is on

[kawhileonard2]

So let's compare 1999 then.

[dankok8]

Yes he was top 10 in the 90's.

[iamgine]

Compare apples to apples

So compare pippen's peak (94' or 92') to Hakeem's peak

Or Drexler's peak

Or shaq's peak

Or anyone's peak

Pippen..... doesn't...... compare

This isn't my opinion - it's statistical fact

Ultimately, prime Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable by regular players, but pippen's ordinary production is matched by bums like Horry (94' Finals) or JR Smith (15' ECF).. Pippen's peak is bummy and matched by 05' Hughes, Marc Gasol, KJ and tons of players... That's the caliber pippen is on
OP is talking 90s.

Also, not sure it's not just your opinion when you start comparing Pippen to Hughes.

[3ball]

Yes he was top 10 in the 90's.


No, he wasn't

Kemp was better than pippen and Krause agreed (was begging seattle to take pippen for kemp) - and kemp proved it in the Finals... if you think pippen is anywhere near Kemp after watching that series, then you don't know basketball... you just don't.. kemp could carry a team and outplay a goat defense - pippen is nowhere near this and much weaker physically and mentally

Payton, Penny and Hill were also better... Derrick Coleman was better

Reggie Lewis was better (see the 92' Playoffs (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?485693-Pippen-vs-Reggie-Lewis-as-1-options-in-the-playoffs&p=14147433))

All these guys were better and many more, plus the usual suspects (Drexler, Shaq, etc) - the only counter you have is to say 6 rings and point to an inflated accolade list obtained via the winning spotlight... But the stats, eye test, peak, and playoff performance DO NOT support your claim

[iamgine]

No, he wasn't

Kemp was better than pippen and Krause agreed (was begging seattle to take pippen for kemp) - and kemp proved it in the Finals... if you think pippen is anywhere near Kemp after watching that series, then you don't know basketball... you just don't.. kemp could carry a team and outplay a goat defense - pippen is nowhere near this and much weaker physically and mentally

Payton, Penny and Hill were also better... Derrick Coleman was better

Reggie Lewis was better (see the 92' Playoffs (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?485693-Pippen-vs-Reggie-Lewis-as-1-options-in-the-playoffs&p=14147433))

All these guys were better and many more, plus the usual suspects (Drexler, Shaq, etc) - the only counter you have is to say 6 rings and point to an inflated accolade list obtained via the winning spotlight... But the stats, eye test, peak, and playoff performance DO NOT support your claim
This is opinion.

[3ball]

This is opinion.

Krause was begging Seattle to take Pippen for Kemp

This is fact, along with Kemp's destruction of Pippen on the biggest stage

Furthermore, guys like Coleman, Reggie Lewis, and TONS OF GUYS playing better, at least statistically, than pippen ever did

All facts .. but you keep believing the espn... they know best

[iamgine]

Krause was begging Seattle to take Pippen for Kemp

This is fact, along with Kemp's destruction of Pippen on the biggest stage

All facts .. but you believe the mainstream... The earth is flat after all.. you were right about that... And Hillary won the presidency too

Jerry Krause can have an opinion too. Sometimes he's right, sometimes not.

[AussieSteve]

[QUOTE=3ball;14209090]who cares about top 10 when AD/Wade peaked as arguably the best player in the game.. and Kyrie had a goat playoff run and Finals in 16' and 17'... All three have higher BPM, PER and WS/48 then pippen

/QUOTE]

The thing is, sure Wade and AD may be better than Pippen (although I'm not sure about AD) but you have to look at the rest of the league as well.

The bulls were the only team in the league who had a genuine superstar as their 2nd option. The best any other team had as a 2nd option was an average AS level player. So in that context, the Bulls with Jordan as the best player in the league and pippen top 5, were stacked AF.

Its common for teams to have 2 genuine stars in LeBron's era. And aside from Wade in 2011 & 2012 and AD last year, he never had a top 10 player in the keague by his side. Jordan had one for at least 6 post seasons.

[3ball]

[QUOTE=3ball;14209090]who cares about top 10 when AD/Wade peaked as arguably the best player in the game.. and Kyrie had a goat playoff run and Finals in 16' and 17'... All three have higher BPM, PER and WS/48 then pippen

/QUOTE]

The thing is, sure Wade and AD may be better than Pippen (although I'm not sure about AD) but you have to look at the rest of the league as well.

The bulls were the only team in the league who had a genuine superstar as their 2nd option. The best any other team had as a 2nd option was an average AS level player. So in that context, the Bulls with Jordan as the best player in the league and pippen top 5, were stacked AF.

Its common for teams to have 2 genuine stars in LeBron's era. And aside from Wade in 2011 & 2012 and AD last year, he never had a top 10 player in the keague by his side. Jordan had one for at least 6 post seasons.


PLAYOFFS

87' Worthy.... 24 on 57% (led Lakers)
88' Worthy.... 21 on 53% (led Lakers and FMVP)
89' Worthy.... 25 on 53% (led Lakers)
90' Worthy.... 25 on 59% (led Lakers)


^^^^ Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991 and Worthy was considered far superior..

And even a hobbled Worthy nearly matched Pippen in the 91' Finals because again, pippen's caliber and stats are very attainable - even ordinary guys like JR Smith can match it, let alone HOF Worthy..

So pippen wasn't a star in 91', and he was destroyed by X-man in the 92' ECSF, which nearly caused a loss... So to say pippen was the only genuine star sidekick in the 90's is a dumb lie or ignorance.. ultimately, pippen was nothing in 1991 and the Bulls were big underdogs heading into that season with numerous teams favored ahead of them.

And Penny, Kemp, KJ, and Stockton were all superstars - the 90's was a 2-star team league

Ultimately, pippen's stats, playoff performance, peak, and eye test isn't top 10 in the 90's... Period... He was simply inflated by the winning spotlight and association with the goat player and brand (Air Jordan)

[dankok8]

Jordan is better than Lebron but 3ball you're embarrassing yourself with these Pippen takes.

Taking the totality of the 90's there isn't ten guys better than Scottie as basketball players.

[3ball]

Jordan is better than Lebron but 3ball you're embarrassing yourself with these Pippen takes.

Taking the totality of the 90's there isn't ten guys better than Scottie as basketball players.

I'm posting stats and facts, not "takes"

You're embarrassing yourself by ignoring facts and opting for an espn-level glossing over the truth.. I can back up my claims and you can't.. you would lose a real pippen debate to me badly

Carry on.. but you're exposing your shallow understanding of the game

[3ball]

.
Pippen vs Reggie Lewis as #1 options in the playoffs


PLAYOFFS

92' LEWIS..... 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp
94' PIPPEN... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp






there isn't ten guys better in the 90's than Scottie as basketball players.





In no order


* Hakeem - led team to the Finals as 1st option, aka "1st option Finals guy" (top tier of the 90's)

* Shaq - 1st option Finals guy... likely top 10 player all-time

* Barkley - 1st option Finals guy.. only a championship prevented him from top 10 all-time

* Malone - 1st option Finals guy.. see Barkley above

* Ewing - 1st option Finals guy... destroyed peak pippen heads-up in 94' - superior on both ends of floor (4 BPG)... he led superior, 'bad-boys' defenses, while pippen was beat up by those defenses and led weaker team defenses.. night and day

* Drexler - 1st option Finals guy... averaged 26/8/5 in the 90' and 92' Finals against Rodman (90' Bad Boys) and MJ/Pippen, while also playing better than Pippen ever did as a 2nd option (95' Finals)... he also matched Pippen in steals/blocks, while leading a better team defense than the 1st three-peat bulls despite less defensive help

* Robinson - Jeff Bezos version of Pippen

* Grant Hill - far better at everything than Pippen.. the next "Jordan"... completely destroyed pippen heads-up... underrated defender that didn't have the 3 years of grooming/learning that pippen got alongside the dpoy

* Penny - far better scorer and passer than Pippen, and outplayed him twice heads-up.. the next "Jordan"

* Payton - superior at literally every aspect of basketball tangible or intangible

* Kemp - better athlete...better talent...bigger, stronger, faster, and dominant (pippen never dominated).. averaged 20/10 in his sleep despite a guard build at 6'10"... received FMVP votes on MJ's level in the 96' Finals, while pippen was worst-ever... krause (the man who drafted pippen) strongly preferred kemp and pursued a trade.. would dominate in today's era as a perimeter guard with big man strength (a modified Giannis with better jumper.. a slimmer, taller Zion)

* Reggie Miller - led the no-star Pacers to the Finals where he severely outplayed Kobe, and he nearly beat MJ in 98' - Miller had the super-optimal "curry" impact for that era (so he won with less help), and his curry-impact would obviously be magnified in today's 3-pointer format

* KJ - far better scorer and passer than Pippen and led several 55-win teams to the WCF (including beating Magic's Lakers).. averaged 28/5/9 as 1st option over Barkley in two 7-game series vs the champion Rockets (94' and 95'), including a 45 and 46-point game.. Pippen never played anywhere near this level (and never posterized Hakeem like KJ did)


* HONORABLE MENTION (young all-stars in 98' - Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd (Kobe outplayed Pippen in 99' PO)

* HONORABLE MENTION (guys with better stats) - Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Vin Baker, tons of other guys

* HONORABLE MENTION (more talented players) - Derrick Coleman, Richard Dumas (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzIKvx9gmk), Reggie Lewis (see stats above)

* HONORABLE MENTION (guys that outplayed Pip heads-up) - X-man destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF... Dominique and Willis destroyed pippen in the 93' 1st Round.. Juwan Howard (97'), Larry Johnson (95'), Schrempf (96') and Rik Smits (98') all destroyed pippen heads-up or as 2nd options.. And Stockton outplayed pippen in 97'.. Oakley outplayed pippen in 96' ECSF.. Kobe outplayed Pippen in 99' first round.. and in the regular season, Mash drop 50 on pip.. Dirk nowitzki destroy pip as 18-year old (drops 52 on pip, here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qlz01nBrl4s&t=0m12s)).

[plowking]

I don't know why this forum continues this Jordan vs Bron debate through roundabout ways.

Wade wasn't as good as Pippen as a sidekick, nor as an overall player when Bron played with him. Just flat out wasn't. Pippen was far more valuable as a defender and second hand playmaker than anything Wade did in the Heat's 4 final runs as a whole.
I wouldn't take Kyrie over Pippen either.

Anthony Davis on the other hand is a flat out better player and sidekick than all of them.

Regardless of all this, Bron faced better competition in the Finals and it really isn't close. Teams are far more talented now as a whole.

[3ball]

I don't know why this forum continues this Jordan vs Bron debate through roundabout ways.

Wade wasn't as good as Pippen as a sidekick, nor as an overall player when Bron played with him. Just flat out wasn't. Pippen was far more valuable as a defender and second hand playmaker than anything Wade did in the Heat's 4 final runs as a whole.
I wouldn't take Kyrie over Pippen either.

Anthony Davis on the other hand is a flat out better player and sidekick than all of them.

Regardless of all this, Bron faced better competition in the Finals and it really isn't close. Teams are far more talented now as a whole.

The stats say that Wade was a better sidekick... furthermore, Wade's assists declined from 7 to 4 alongside lebron, but Wade had always been a far superior playmaker and assist man than pippen.. lebron simply lowered Wade's assists just like every other key player that he's had

And if today's league is more talented "as a whole", then that would include Lebron's team.. the spurs/heat and cavs/warriors were the only teams with 3 perennial all-stars from 13-17' (big 3's), so they made all the Finals

Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014, while Klay was a 1st time all-star in 15'... This talent edge is why the Cavs were favored heading into the 15' and 16' seasons.. ultimately, lebron had the guy that killed Curry, which is better than durant just having curry

[8Ball]

55 Wins acutally. Overall he was a Top 10 Player in the 90's. The year without MJ he was easily around Top 5 or 6!

Pippen won 59 games in 2000.

Don't forget that stat.

Top 5 player in the 90s.

[3ball]

Pippen won 59 games in 2000.

Don't forget that stat.

Top 5 player in the 90s.


Pippen vs Reggie Lewis as #1 options in the playoffs


PLAYOFFS

92' LEWIS..... 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp
94' PIPPEN... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp






In no order


* Hakeem - led team to the Finals as 1st option, aka "1st option Finals guy" (top tier of the 90's)

* Shaq - 1st option Finals guy... likely top 10 player all-time

* Barkley - 1st option Finals guy.. only a championship prevented him from top 10 all-time

* Malone - 1st option Finals guy.. see Barkley above

* Ewing - 1st option Finals guy... destroyed peak pippen heads-up in 94' - superior on both ends of floor (4 BPG)... he led superior, 'bad-boys' defenses, while pippen was beat up by those defenses and led weaker team defenses.. night and day

* Drexler - 1st option Finals guy... averaged 26/8/5 in the 90' and 92' Finals against Rodman (90' Bad Boys) and MJ/Pippen, while also playing better than Pippen ever did as a 2nd option (95' Finals)... he also matched Pippen in steals/blocks, while leading a better team defense than the 1st three-peat bulls despite less defensive help

* Robinson - Jeff Bezos version of Pippen

* Grant Hill - far better at everything than Pippen.. the next "Jordan"... completely destroyed pippen heads-up... underrated defender that didn't have the 3 years of grooming/learning that pippen got alongside the dpoy

* Penny - far better scorer and passer than Pippen, and outplayed him twice heads-up.. the next "Jordan"

* Payton - superior at literally every aspect of basketball tangible or intangible

* Kemp - better athlete...better talent...bigger, stronger, faster, and dominant (pippen never dominated).. averaged 20/10 in his sleep despite a guard build at 6'10"... received FMVP votes on MJ's level in the 96' Finals, while pippen was worst-ever... krause (the man who drafted pippen) strongly preferred kemp and pursued a trade.. would dominate in today's era as a perimeter guard with big man strength (a modified Giannis with better jumper.. a slimmer, taller Zion)

* Reggie Miller - led the no-star Pacers to the Finals where he severely outplayed Kobe, and he nearly beat MJ in 98' - Miller had the super-optimal "curry" impact for that era (so he won with less help), and his curry-impact would obviously be magnified in today's 3-pointer format

* KJ - far better scorer and passer than Pippen and led several 55-win teams to the WCF (including beating Magic's Lakers).. averaged 28/5/9 as 1st option over Barkley in two 7-game series vs the champion Rockets (94' and 95'), including a 45 and 46-point game.. Pippen never played anywhere near this level (and never posterized Hakeem like KJ did)


* HONORABLE MENTION (young all-stars in 98' - Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd (Kobe outplayed Pippen in 99' PO)

* HONORABLE MENTION (guys with better stats) - Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Vin Baker, tons of other guys

* HONORABLE MENTION (more talented players) - Derrick Coleman, Richard Dumas (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzIKvx9gmk), Reggie Lewis (see stats above)

* HONORABLE MENTION (guys that outplayed Pip heads-up) - X-man destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF... Dominique and Willis destroyed pippen in the 93' 1st Round.. Juwan Howard (97'), Larry Johnson (95'), Schrempf (96') and Rik Smits (98') all destroyed pippen heads-up or as 2nd options.. And Stockton outplayed pippen in 97'.. Oakley outplayed pippen in 96' ECSF.. Kobe outplayed Pippen in 99' first round.. and in the regular season, Mash drop 50 on pip.. Dirk nowitzki destroy pip as 18-year old (drops 52 on pip, here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qlz01nBrl4s&t=0m12s)).

[Wally450]

Yes, he was a top 10 player in the 90s

[3ball]

Yes, he was a top 10 player in the 90s

Kemp, Penny, Hill, and Payton were better

so no, pippen wasn't top 10

[ImKobe]

Pippen won 59 games in 2000.

Don't forget that stat.

Top 5 player in the 90s.

He averaged 12.5 ppg on 53%TS that season..

[RRR3]

He averaged 12.5 ppg on 53%TS that season..
Look who came out of his coma. Tough few months for you huh?

[Round Mound]

I wonder what Pippen's stats would look like had he been a 1st option on another team (or without the balll hog Jordan) in his prime and peak (from 1990 to 1998). They certainly would have looked closer to the 1993-94 season.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

In what world is a role player that got developed by someone else a top 10 player of the 90s?

[ImKobe]

I wonder what Pippen's stats would look like had he been a 1st option on another team (or without the balll hog Jordan) in his prime and peak (from 1990 to 1998). They certainly would have looked closer to the 1993-94 season.

Would he be the same player, had he not been drafted by Chicago? It's not like he was projected to be a superstar coming into the league, despite the 5th overall pick, he developed into a great all-around player next to Jordan, he practiced against the GOAT. His numbers didn't improve a whole lot in '94. His '92 season is almost on par with the '94 & '95 ones. and he did worse against the Knicks scoring-wise in the Playoffs than the year before as a 2nd option, his best Playoff averages were with to Jordan in '91.

[Round Mound]

Would he be the same player, had he not been drafted by Chicago? It's not like he was projected to be a superstar coming into the league, despite the 5th overall pick, he developed into a great all-around player next to Jordan, he practiced against the GOAT. His numbers didn't improve a whole lot in '94. His '92 season is almost on par with the '94 & '95 ones. and he did worse against the Knicks scoring-wise in the Playoffs than the year before as a 2nd option, his best Playoff averages were with to Jordan in '91.

His stats one another team or without Jordan would have looked better than his total per game career stats. Jordan made Pippen tougher but skill wise the dude had great defensive instincts (great biotype for defense: long wingspam-length, great feet to move sideways and agility etc) as was his natural play making capacity (as a Point-Forward) and good finishing, driving, dunking and coast to coast ablities. There is a reason why Jordan did not wan't to play without Pippen. Very few All Stars would have accepted to play with someone that would take 24 25 26 or more FGAs PG.

[dankok8]

.
Pippen vs Reggie Lewis as #1 options in the playoffs


PLAYOFFS

92' LEWIS..... 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp
94' PIPPEN... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp






In no order


* Hakeem - led team to the Finals as 1st option, aka "1st option Finals guy" (top tier of the 90's)

* Shaq - 1st option Finals guy... likely top 10 player all-time

* Barkley - 1st option Finals guy.. only a championship prevented him from top 10 all-time

* Malone - 1st option Finals guy.. see Barkley above

* Ewing - 1st option Finals guy... destroyed peak pippen heads-up in 94' - superior on both ends of floor (4 BPG)... he led superior, 'bad-boys' defenses, while pippen was beat up by those defenses and led weaker team defenses.. night and day

* Drexler - 1st option Finals guy... averaged 26/8/5 in the 90' and 92' Finals against Rodman (90' Bad Boys) and MJ/Pippen, while also playing better than Pippen ever did as a 2nd option (95' Finals)... he also matched Pippen in steals/blocks, while leading a better team defense than the 1st three-peat bulls despite less defensive help

* Robinson - Jeff Bezos version of Pippen

* Grant Hill - far better at everything than Pippen.. the next "Jordan"... completely destroyed pippen heads-up... underrated defender that didn't have the 3 years of grooming/learning that pippen got alongside the dpoy

* Penny - far better scorer and passer than Pippen, and outplayed him twice heads-up.. the next "Jordan"

* Payton - superior at literally every aspect of basketball tangible or intangible

* Kemp - better athlete...better talent...bigger, stronger, faster, and dominant (pippen never dominated).. averaged 20/10 in his sleep despite a guard build at 6'10"... received FMVP votes on MJ's level in the 96' Finals, while pippen was worst-ever... krause (the man who drafted pippen) strongly preferred kemp and pursued a trade.. would dominate in today's era as a perimeter guard with big man strength (a modified Giannis with better jumper.. a slimmer, taller Zion)

* Reggie Miller - led the no-star Pacers to the Finals where he severely outplayed Kobe, and he nearly beat MJ in 98' - Miller had the super-optimal "curry" impact for that era (so he won with less help), and his curry-impact would obviously be magnified in today's 3-pointer format

* KJ - far better scorer and passer than Pippen and led several 55-win teams to the WCF (including beating Magic's Lakers).. averaged 28/5/9 as 1st option over Barkley in two 7-game series vs the champion Rockets (94' and 95'), including a 45 and 46-point game.. Pippen never played anywhere near this level (and never posterized Hakeem like KJ did)


* HONORABLE MENTION (young all-stars in 98' - Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd (Kobe outplayed Pippen in 99' PO)

* HONORABLE MENTION (guys with better stats) - Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Vin Baker, tons of other guys

* HONORABLE MENTION (more talented players) - Derrick Coleman, Richard Dumas (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzIKvx9gmk), Reggie Lewis (see stats above)

* HONORABLE MENTION (guys that outplayed Pip heads-up) - X-man destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF... Dominique and Willis destroyed pippen in the 93' 1st Round.. Juwan Howard (97'), Larry Johnson (95'), Schrempf (96') and Rik Smits (98') all destroyed pippen heads-up or as 2nd options.. And Stockton outplayed pippen in 97'.. Oakley outplayed pippen in 96' ECSF.. Kobe outplayed Pippen in 99' first round.. and in the regular season, Mash drop 50 on pip.. Dirk nowitzki destroy pip as 18-year old (drops 52 on pip, here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qlz01nBrl4s&t=0m12s)).

I'll give you Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Barkley and Malone. Those guys are definitely better. Drexler is a push. The others aren't better than Pippen. A few of those guys you listed were insanely talented but they couldn't sustain it.

[3ball]

I'll give you Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Barkley and Malone. Those guys are definitely better. Drexler is a push. The others aren't better than Pippen. A few of those guys you listed were insanely talented but they couldn't sustain it.


See that's the rub and where we disagree - on what planet did pippen "sustain it"? Sustain what exactly?

The only thing pippen "sustained" was weak play, like his horrible performance against Kemp in the Finals... infact, he played horrible for the entire 96-98' Playoffs (17/7/5 on 41%).. and he shot 50% ts in the 93' Playoffs, with lower PER, WS/48, OBPM, efficiency, and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade - so 93' Pippen was producing less than 14' Wade!!!.... Jordan had to average 41 to barely win!!!

How is this not resonating with you - yet you're still regurgitating nonsense that pippen "sustained it"??.. sustained what exactly? 16 on 40% or worse in the majority of his playoff series?... ultimately, you think he played well and I don't - but I'm using the same stats we always use to evaluate, while you're ignoring them one-time for pip

Overall, pippen sucked in the Playoffs for 93', 94', 95', 96-98', 99-03' and 88-90'.. his only solid years was 91' and 92', but even 92' was close because his poor play nearly caused massive upset in the ecsf

Ultimately, the stats of prime Drexler/Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable by regular players, whereas pippen's stats were routinely matched by bums like Horry (94' Finals), JR Smith (15' ECF), or Hughes (05')...That's the caliber of sidekick production that mj won 6 rings with (uber-peak horry or JR) - the stats don't lie

[goozeman]

Peak w/Jordan Pippen averaged 21ppg. Without Jordan he clocked 22ppg. In terms of efficiency, his playoff production actually dropped significantly on the Jordanless Bulls. Pippen shot 43 percent from the floor in 1994, which was the worst playoff performance of his career up that point. When he went to Houston, a team with higher tier talent more evenly distributed across the roster, his number dropped dramatically. He was third in scoring on that team. He was also terrible in the playoffs with Houston, shooting just 32 percent on 17.5apg. The answer is that he was never really a first option at any point in his career, despite being a great all-around player and adequate scorer at times during the regular season. Great player, but not a legitimate first option. People should watch the film. Pippen was good in the open court and on the break. A lot of his offensive production throughout his career was generated out of the double threat of Pippen and Jordan as steal generators. He struggled massively as a shot creator and iso guy in the half court. He was not a dependable offensive weapon, especially against better defensive teams in the playoffs that gave him nightmares.

Answer: Pippen was never a first option, so it is simply false premise to begin an analysis of his career from that point of view.

[bizil]

If we are looking at from RESUME standpoint what was accomplished in the 90's, this would be the top 10 guys: (no order other than MJ at top)

MJ
Dream
Chuck
Mailman
Admrial
Ewing
GP
Pip
Drexler
Stock

+ Shaq could be in one of these spots. But true peak and most accomplishments came in the 2000s.

If we are talking peak-prime status for guys who had AT LEAST 5 All Star quality seasons in the 90's, I don't think Pip is a lock for that list though. When he became the top SF in the world, the SF spot wasn't NEARLY AS DEEP as it was in the 80's. Then when G Hill got rolling, he was the top SF in the world. Achilles heel in Pip's arsenal was his scoring ability. A very good scorer BUT not an alpha dog scorer.

And it's NOT ABOUT him playing with MJ EITHER! There are numerous title teams in NBA history what had multiple alpha dog scorers on those teams. We just saw it with Bron and AD. And recently with KD and Steph. If Pip had that alpha dog gene, he could have went down as the GOAT SF at one point in time. Even though Bird was better peak-prime wise, Pip has DOUBLE THE RINGS Bird had!

[HoopsNY]

Pippen won 59 games in 2000.

Don't forget that stat.

Top 5 player in the 90s.

3ball's takes are awful when it comes to Pippen by "Pippen won 59 games in 2000" is just laughable. The Blazers assembled a stacked team. In the '99 offseason they didn't just acquire Pippen. They also added Schrempf and Steve Smith, added to Sabonis, Grant, Wallace, Anthony, and Mighty Mouse who they acquired just a season prior.

I remember that season because it was a war between Portland and LA for who the best team was up until about the final month of the season where the Blazers sort of fell apart. But Pippen wasn't putting up 20/7/7 on 52% or something. He put up 12.5/6/5 on 45%. It was a collective effort and the Blazers had a great team.

[8Ball]

I am stating 100% facts.

Pippen's team won 55 games in 1994. Was 3 time all-nba 1st team in the 90s.

Pippen's team won 59 games in 2000.

Jordan never won close 55 games without Pippen.


Did Kevin Love, Bosh, Kyrie, AD ever win 55 games without LeBron?

Wade won 59 games in 2005 as a 2nd fiddle to Prime Shaq.

So without Prime Shaq, Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, AD never won 55 games without LeBron Ball.


And this old fart over here hates my Jordan facts, but love's 3ball's made up paragraphs of bullshit? GTFO

[Axe]

3ball's takes are awful when it comes to Pippen by "Pippen won 59 games in 2000" is just laughable. The Blazers assembled a stacked team. In the '99 offseason they didn't just acquire Pippen. They also added Schrempf and Steve Smith, added to Sabonis, Grant, Wallace, Anthony, and Mighty Mouse who they acquired just a season prior.

I remember that season because it was a war between Portland and LA for who the best team was up until about the final month of the season where the Blazers sort of fell apart. But Pippen wasn't putting up 20/7/7 on 52% or something. He put up 12.5/6/5 on 45%. It was a collective effort and the Blazers had a great team.
The point is, pip has been to a team that won at least 55 games without jordan while jordan hasn't without him.

[HoopsNY]

[QUOTE=3ball;14209090]who cares about top 10 when AD/Wade peaked as arguably the best player in the game.. and Kyrie had a goat playoff run and Finals in 16' and 17'... All three have higher BPM, PER and WS/48 then pippen

/QUOTE]

The thing is, sure Wade and AD may be better than Pippen (although I'm not sure about AD) but you have to look at the rest of the league as well.

The bulls were the only team in the league who had a genuine superstar as their 2nd option. The best any other team had as a 2nd option was an average AS level player. So in that context, the Bulls with Jordan as the best player in the league and pippen top 5, were stacked AF.

Its common for teams to have 2 genuine stars in LeBron's era. And aside from Wade in 2011 & 2012 and AD last year, he never had a top 10 player in the keague by his side. Jordan had one for at least 6 post seasons.

You could make the argument for 2016 for Kyrie. He missed 30 games that year which is why 2016 doesn't register for most people, but his playoff performances speak for itself.

Kyrie 2016 Playoffs

PPG: 7th
SPG: 9th
PER: 7th
OWS: 2nd
DWS: 8th
OBPM: 8th
BPM: 9th
VORP: 4th

Furthermore, 1991 Pippen wasn't a superstar. 1998 Pippen missed half of the season and wasn't as effective in the playoffs or finals. 1996 Seattle had GP/Kemp and Chicago beat an Orlando team that had Penny/Shaq. Both of those series Pippen got outplayed.

[Baller789]

I am stating 100% facts.

Pippen's team won 55 games in 1994. Was 3 time all-nba 1st team in the 90s.

Pippen's team won 59 games in 2000.

Jordan never won close 55 games without Pippen.


Did Kevin Love, Bosh, Kyrie, AD ever win 55 games without LeBron?

Wade won 59 games in 2005 as a 2nd fiddle to Prime Shaq.

So without Prime Shaq, Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, AD never won 55 games without LeBron Ball.


And this old fart over here hates my Jordan facts, but love's 3ball's made up paragraphs of bullshit? GTFO

Your post in so disingenious it laughable.

You put Pip's 2000 Blazers team? Really?

Your agenda pushing knows no bounds Gayball.

[Baller789]

The point is, pip has been to a team that won at least 55 games without jordan while jordan hasn't without him.

Which is useless in this argument considering that one team is so stacked, even the bench would make a decent NBA team.

[HoopsNY]

The point is, pip has been to a team that won at least 55 games without jordan while jordan hasn't without him.

This just isn't a fair point. This isn't the first time a team excelled without a great player. Furthermore, MJ left a championship team with peak Pippen, peak Grant, and peak Armstrong. People forget that Scottie was injured in 1993 all through the season due to a bad ankle.

This is conveniently left out of the conversation when people look at the Heat in 2014-15. Are people saying that 2015 Wade and Bosh were at their peaks? Not to mention, they added 3 new starters in Deng, Dragic, and Whiteside. That season was a mess for Miami. Miami kept mixing and matching lineups to cover their injury woes.

Did people forget that Wade missed 20 games and Bosh missed 38? There is this thing called team chemistry. You need it. Miami could establish none of that in 2015.

Here's a question for Bran stans, if chemistry does not matter and the Heat were so incapable of playing without LeBron, then why did Miami make the playoffs in 2016, winning 48 games and making it to the 2nd round? Take a look at the Games Played for their players between the two years. Miami was constantly mixing and matching, making trades, and picking players up from the developmental league to fill gaps:

2015 Heat

Wade: 62
Bosh: 44
Dragic: 26
Whiteside: 48
Deng: 72

2016 Heat

Wade: 74
Bosh: 53
Dragic: 72
Whiteside: 73
Deng: 74

In addition, Miami lost Battier and Allen, two role players who offered a veteran presence, one of them still remaining a sharpshooter. Team chemistry doesn't matter? Take a look at this article from that year:

https://www.foxsports.com/florida/story/miami-heat-forced-to-make-adjustments-during-injury-plagued-2014-2015-season-041815


The three consecutive wins to open the season would only be matched once during a stretch in March and the losses instead piled up as they faded out of the playoff picture. With coach Erik Spoelstra and his team not knowing who would be available on a game-by-game basis, the team’s chemistry and cohesion correspondingly took a big hit.

"You just never know what to expect when you come into a training camp," Spoelstra said after the team wrapped up their exit interviews Friday. "Obviously we had different expectations for the end of the season but you learn, you grow from all of your experiences. So when we came out of training camp, we had a team that we felt could build and grow as the season went on. We were met with some adversity early on and the team changed course three or four times during the course of the season."


From the start of training camp when McRoberts closed out on Bosh during a drill and tweaked his back to the very end of the season, the Heat never had anything close to a healthy roster. Miami ended up setting a franchise mark with their 31st different starting lineup of the season in their season finale, surpassing the 2007-08 season which was the last time the Heat missed out on the postseason.

In addition to constant injuries, medical conditions and illnesses that never went away, the starters were the most affected. The projected lineup of Wade, Chalmers, Deng, McRoberts and Bosh ended up playing less then 24 minutes together before McRoberts was lost for the season with a torn right meniscus. The next projected lineup of Wade, Chalmers, Deng, Bosh and Whiteside were only on the floor for 28 total minutes.

"It’s just how it was this year," said Bosh. "Even before I went down, we had our struggles and that was wearing on everybody around here. Just not being able to get out the blocks and really be able to compete at a high level and build continuity. Forget winning games, let’s just have the same guys out there and at least learn our plays or learn the ins and out of the defense and really learn each other.

"Unfortunately, we didn’t have that time but our guys fought and we never made excuses and I still believe we’re going to use this as a positive."

In all, the Heat suffered season-ending injuries to Bosh, McRoberts and Napier while Wade missed 20 games due to a variety of injuries and rest. Unsurprisingly, no Heat player suited up for the entirety of the 82-game season.

[HoopsNY]

Lots of teams lost elite players and still made the playoffs. The Sixers lost Wilt and won 55 games. I know the retort is that Clark and Imhoff replaced Wilt, but since when is a 13 and 9 PPG replacement sufficient to replace someone of Wilt's caliber?

The Magic in 1997 lost Shaq and won 45 games, still making the playoffs. Sure that's a bit of a dip from 1996, but Penny missed 23 games that season. Orlando was 38-21 with Penny (53 win pace) and 8-15 without him (28 win pace).

The retort to that is that they added Rony Seikaly who gave them 17/9.5. People forget that the year prior, Shaq only played in 54 games. Orlando had a 59 win pace (20-8 record) without Shaq and a 61 win pace (40-14) with him.

Does this mean that Shaq's value was irrelevant?

Look at the Raptors of 2019. They posted a 17-5 record without Kawhi during the regular season. They were a 59 win team before without Kawhi and were a great team last season without him as well. Does that devalue Kawhi?

Boston lost Larry Bird after the 1992 season. They won 51 games in his last season but won 48 the next year, and were a playoff team.

Let's stop acting like these things are unprecedented. Teams can hold their own without their star player. Chicago was no different.

[HoopsNY]

I am stating 100% facts.

Pippen's team won 55 games in 1994. Was 3 time all-nba 1st team in the 90s.

Pippen's team won 59 games in 2000.

Jordan never won close 55 games without Pippen.


Did Kevin Love, Bosh, Kyrie, AD ever win 55 games without LeBron?

Wade won 59 games in 2005 as a 2nd fiddle to Prime Shaq.

So without Prime Shaq, Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, AD never won 55 games without LeBron Ball.


And this old fart over here hates my Jordan facts, but love's 3ball's made up paragraphs of bullshit? GTFO

I already said 3ball's take is garbage. But I love how you sidestepped my analysis and just reiterated your bombastic claim. Typical of people with low IQs.

OP Claim: Pippen won 59 games in 2000!

Response: Actually, that was a collective effort on a stacked team that made numerous additions to develop a team that was cohesive in all areas, which included the additions of Pippen, Schrempf, and Smith.

OP Rebuttal: I'M SPEAKING STRAIGHT FACTS!

:confusedshrug:

[8Ball]

If you want to put Jordan on Kawhi's level of team impact I am fine with it. Kawhi in 2020 literally admitted his team needed more "playmaking". Imagine a LeBron led team lacking "playmaking". Never an issue ever.

55 wins is upper echelon in the NBA in a given season.
45 wins is mediocre and barely makes the playoffs.


Fact stands. Winning 55 games is very difficult. Pippen did in 1994 and 2000.


Why are we denigrating Pippen so much? The man made 8 all-nba teams, and 3 1st team all-NBAs, 10 All-defensive. All in the 90s. How is Pippen not a top 10 player in the 90s? Actually blasphemy.

[8Ball]

90s only all-nba selections:

Barkley 6 All-NBA teams - 3 All-NBA 1st teams in the 90s
Robinson 8 All-NBA teams - 4 1st teams in the 90s
Karl Malone 9 All-NBA teams - 9 1st teams in the 90s
Stockton 7 All-NBA teams - 2 1st teams in the 90s
Jordan 7 All-NBA teams - 7 1st teams in the 90s
Hakeem 8 All-NBA teams - 3 1st teams in the 90s.
Tim Duncan 3 All-NBA teams - 3 1st teams in the 90s
Shaq 6 All-NBA teams - 1st teams in the 90s.
Pippen 8 All-NBA teams - 3 1st teams.

That's your greatest 90s players. Pippen easily belonged there in the top 10. Name we more players in the 90s that had more All-nba selections than Pippen, or more 1st team selections than Pippen in the 90s.

Some years Pippen was arguably top 5 in the 90s.

[WhiteKyrie]

who cares about top 10 when AD/Wade peaked as arguably the best player in the game.. and Kyrie had a goat playoff run and Finals in 16' and 17'... All three have higher BPM, PER and WS/48 then pippen

It's no comparison...

And the stats you posted would rank as the worst peak of any all-time great

Larry Hughes can match that and many other guys like Marc Gasol or KJ or Stockton

You wasted a bunch of ink to say that Pippen's best year was top 10 in numerous categories - whooptiwhoop - most good players peak out around there and many peak much higher..

so your post means nothing and doesn't prove pippen is better than a Marc Gasol/KJ level player (and actually, he's nowhere near KJ)

and you posted nothing for the playoffs because virtually EVERYONE was better than pippen in the playoffs because pippen is the worst playoff performer, maybe ever.. none of the so-called greats have anywhere near the horrible performances as Pippen

Ultimately, your post is 6th grade book report level that means nothing except that pippen was about as good as Marc gasol and worse in the playoffs

No shit.

If we were ranking the quality of teammates in a hierarchy as individual players:

1) Anthony Davis ‘20 - Current
2) Dwyane Wade ‘10 - ‘14
3) Scottie Pippen ‘88 - ‘99
4) Kyrie Irving ‘15 - ‘17
5) Chris Bosh ‘10 - ‘14
6) Kevin Love ‘15 - ‘18
7) Horace Grant ‘88 - ‘93
8) Dennis Rodman ‘96 - ‘98

Top 2 are LeBron teammates. 5 of top 6 are LeBron teammates.

[HoopsNY]

If you want to put Jordan on Kawhi's level of team impact I am fine with it. Kawhi in 2020 literally admitted his team needed more "playmaking". Imagine a LeBron led team lacking "playmaking". Never an issue ever.

55 wins is upper echelon in the NBA in a given season.
45 wins is mediocre and barely makes the playoffs.


Fact stands. Winning 55 games is very difficult. Pippen did in 1994 and 2000.


Why are we denigrating Pippen so much? The man made 8 all-nba teams, and 3 1st team all-NBAs, 10 All-defensive. All in the 90s. How is Pippen not a top 10 player in the 90s? Actually blasphemy.

I'm not sure why you're bringing that up with me. I never argued against Pippen's rightful place in the top 10 of the 1990s.

Furthermore, my point about Kawhi was what his team did without him on Toronto and you're over here bringing up 2020 with the Clippers.

My point was that a team succeeding without their best player isn't something unfounded. 55 wins isn't unprecedented, especially when you understand that the core group of guys all hit their peak.

Playoff contention happened with Bird, Wilt, Shaq, KD, Kawhi, MJ with varying degrees of success.

The 2014-15 Miami Heat are used as an example of how great LeBron is when his team crumbled after he left. I showed you how that take is devoid of any meaningful context. But as usual, Bran stans can't think too deeply about a topic, they just want to continuously yell about 55 wins.

It's like the age old "MJ couldn't have a winning record without Scottie!", as if rookie Pippen averaging 7 PPG was the reason for Chicago's 50 wins in 1988. All while ignoring that MJ had Chicago on a 56-57 game win pace in 1998 without Pippen, posting a 26-12 record when he missed the first 38 games.

But I guess none of that counts, right?

[8Ball]

I never said Jordan was a bad player. Jordan is #2 all time. LeBron #1.

Pippen was top 10 in the 90s. That's the entire point of this thread. Pippen was elite in the 90s. Winning 55 games + 1st team All-NBA means you are elite.

That Raptors team had zero 1st team all nba teams but they were a super solid middle of the road team without Kawhi. Not an easy thing to do to win 55 games.

[goozeman]

If you want to put Jordan on Kawhi's level of team impact I am fine with it. Kawhi in 2020 literally admitted his team needed more "playmaking". Imagine a LeBron led team lacking "playmaking". Never an issue ever.

55 wins is upper echelon in the NBA in a given season.
45 wins is mediocre and barely makes the playoffs.


Fact stands. Winning 55 games is very difficult. Pippen did in 1994 and 2000.


Why are we denigrating Pippen so much? The man made 8 all-nba teams, and 3 1st team all-NBAs, 10 All-defensive. All in the 90s. How is Pippen not a top 10 player in the 90s? Actually blasphemy.

Jerry Krause upgraded much of the Bulls roster 1994. Except for being minus Jordan, the rest of the roster was longer, more athletic, and more physical than the 1993 team. That 1993 teams was burnt out, physically fatigued, so they coasted during the regular season, but they still won 57 games. They also put out offensively a historic product on the court with Jordan being at his absolute peak. In contrast, the 1994 team had a middling offense. Nothing special. When most people talk about the the Pippen's 1994 season, they like to analyze it exclusively in comparison to the 1993 season. This is where you get the whole argument of Jordan being only worth two more wins for the Bulls, but they totally overlook roster changes between 1993 and 94, and the overall context of the Bulls 90's championship run and the organization as a whole. It's like fans totally disregard how difficult it is to make three deep championship playoff runs, and the fact that in 1993 Jordan's playoff performance was probably the most dominant in the history of the game. And they needed every bit Jordan's greatness to beat Barkley's Suns in the Finals.

The reality is that Pippen had an upgraded roster, a HOF coach, two other all-stars in Grant and Armstrong, and inherited an absolute machine of an organization engineered by Krause. Contrary to what many claim that the Bulls were expected to fall off a cliff without Jordan, the Bulls were projected to win 50 games in 1994. So the 1994 Bulls only slightly over-performed their expected win-loss total. In a larger context, however, both the Jordanless 1994 55-win season and the 1995 .500 season (35-32 until Jordan unretired) were book-ended by a 67-win team with an all-time great offense and record breaking 72-win season in 1996. In other words, 1994 wasn't great by the standards of the Bulls organization. Bulls had a relatively low win total compared to other years and were ousted from the playoffs in the only the second round. And the 1995 .500 season was a disaster. The Bulls were actually projected to finished in the mid-50's in terms of wins but struggled to maintain a .500 record. Halfway through the season Pippen let it be known in no uncertain terms that he did not want to be in Chicago and publicly demanded a trade to the Suns to play with Barkley. Without Jordan the Bulls were basically about to go into rebuilding mode. That's where the Pippen-led Chicago Bulls experiment was heading. Nowhere good. Luckily for the Bulls, Jordan came back and everybody knows what happened next.

[Round Mound]

90s only all-nba selections:

Barkley 6 All-NBA teams - 3 All-NBA 1st teams in the 90s
Robinson 8 All-NBA teams - 4 1st teams in the 90s
Karl Malone 9 All-NBA teams - 9 1st teams in the 90s
Stockton 7 All-NBA teams - 2 1st teams in the 90s
Jordan 7 All-NBA teams - 7 1st teams in the 90s
Hakeem 8 All-NBA teams - 3 1st teams in the 90s.
Tim Duncan 3 All-NBA teams - 3 1st teams in the 90s
Shaq 6 All-NBA teams - 1st teams in the 90s.
Pippen 8 All-NBA teams - 3 1st teams.

That's your greatest 90s players. Pippen easily belonged there in the top 10. Name we more players in the 90s that had more All-nba selections than Pippen, or more 1st team selections than Pippen in the 90s.

Some years Pippen was arguably top 5 in the 90s.

:applause:

[Baller789]

I never said Jordan was a bad player. Jordan is #2 all time. LeBron #1.

Pippen was top 10 in the 90s. That's the entire point of this thread. Pippen was elite in the 90s. Winning 55 games + 1st team All-NBA means you are elite.

That Raptors team had zero 1st team all nba teams but they were a super solid middle of the road team without Kawhi. Not an easy thing to do to win 55 games.

Typical Gayball, no counter arguments against HoopsNY.

:roll:

Just say your sorry. :lol

[97 bulls]

A lot of facts in this without context.

Pip while still good, wasnt the same player in Houston and Portland as he was with the Bulls. His credit for the Blazers winning 59 games should be no higher than anyone else on those teams. I personally believe Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace were the Blazers two best players.

No matter how you spin it, the Bulls winning 55 games in 94 was impressive. And Pippen was clearly the best player. No team and no player has been as successful in a similar scenario. Not ONE!!!! And let's not for that Pippen missed 10 games in 94. The Bulls were 4-6 in the games he missed. Grant also missed 10 games if I remember correctly. It's not out of the realm of possibility that the Bulls win 59-60 games if Pippen is healthy the whole season and Pippen wins the MVP. And he shouldve won the DPOY in 95. I think he was punished for his antics of sitting out that last play and throwing that chair.

Pippen had one very bad offensive playoff run and that was 96. That's why 3ball always lumps 96-98 in together. 98 was great because Pippen was the frontrunner for Finals MVP before he hurt his back in the 98 Finals. That and Jordan's epic game 6 heroics.

The fact is Pippen is utilized by an agenda driven on both sides. Both sides are putting out facts, but dont want to apply context.

[97 bulls]

If we are looking at from RESUME standpoint what was accomplished in the 90's, this would be the top 10 guys: (no order other than MJ at top)

MJ
Dream
Chuck
Mailman
Admrial
Ewing
GP
Pip
Drexler
Stock

+ Shaq could be in one of these spots. But true peak and most accomplishments came in the 2000s.

If we are talking peak-prime status for guys who had AT LEAST 5 All Star quality seasons in the 90's, I don't think Pip is a lock for that list though. When he became the top SF in the world, the SF spot wasn't NEARLY AS DEEP as it was in the 80's. Then when G Hill got rolling, he was the top SF in the world. Achilles heel in Pip's arsenal was his scoring ability. A very good scorer BUT not an alpha dog scorer.

And it's NOT ABOUT him playing with MJ EITHER! There are numerous title teams in NBA history what had multiple alpha dog scorers on those teams. We just saw it with Bron and AD. And recently with KD and Steph. If Pip had that alpha dog gene, he could have went down as the GOAT SF at one point in time. Even though Bird was better peak-prime wise, Pip has DOUBLE THE RINGS Bird had!

Pippens Achilles heel was that he didnt have 10 years as the like the other players mentioned. So his successes are attributed to Jordan. And I've always felt that was extremely unfair and disingenuine.

Wade and Notwitzki are great examples of my argument. Failure after failure, one great fluke playoff run (Wade's 06 and Dirks 11) and all is forgiven. Pippen was given 2 years to do what everyone else got 8-10 years to do.

In my opinion, if Pippen gets a decent SG (not Pete Myers), there's no doubt in my mind that the Bulls win a Championship, Pippen wins an MVP, DPOY, and possibly a Finals MVP. Things that every other great player needed 10 years to accomplish, Pippen wouldve done in 2.

[FireDavidKahn]

lol ...Do you consider Pippen a Top 10 Player in the 90's?

Take those stats and add GOAT level wing defense and a case could easily be made.

[97 bulls]

Take those stats and add GOAT level wing defense and a case could easily be made.

FACTS!!!!

Pippens resume is in par with the other great players of the 90s

Compare his Championships, All NBA, All Defense, MVP voting per year, All star games. Pippen holds his own.

[8Ball]

:applause:

To add to that:

Scottie Pippen in the 90s:

8 All-NBA teams.
9 All Defence teams.

[8Ball]

Typical Gayball, no counter arguments against HoopsNY.

:roll:

Just say your sorry. :lol

HoopsNY agrees with me so what apology?

Pippen is a top 5 90s player.
3ball's arguments are retarded.
Jordan is #2
LeBron is #1
Pippen won 59 games in 2000.
Pippen won 55 games in 1994.

[FireDavidKahn]

FACTS!!!!

Pippens resume is in par with the other great players of the 90s

Compare his Championships, All NBA, All Defense, MVP voting per year, All star games. Pippen holds his own.

Well...Madonna certainly does her part.

https://imgur.com/vyE0GhE

[3ball]

So a player is top 10 for winning 55 games and losing early in the playoffs?

How is that valid?... EVERYONE HAS DONE THAT

And pippen needed 7 years of grooming, a 3-peat system and the table completely set to win 55, while other guys win 55 with nothing.. pippen was a 40-win player in 1995 after getting exposed in the 94' Playoffs - after the 3-peat luster and mental advantage was gone

Pippen 1996 Playoffs.... 17/8/6 on 39% = 94' John Starks
Pippen 1997 Playoffs.... 17/7/4 on 42% = 95' Robert Horry Finals
Pippen 1998 Playoffs.... 17/7/5 on 41% = 05 Larry Hughes


^^^ how is that top 30 all time???.. :kobe:... :whatever:... You guys are fos

[8Ball]

59 games actually.

We are elevating the standard.

[3ball]

Winning 55 games doesn't equal top 10 in the decade

Everyone wins 55 games - it doesn't merit top 10

There's zero argument to make pippen top 10:

* his stats aren't top 10
* his performance isn't top 10
* he has zero memorable performances and poor playoff performance

there's nothing except undeserved all-nba accolades that we're disputing itt - that's what we're arguing about - he didn't deserve that many all-nba - the stats and performance don't justify it

Ultimately, pippen's best performance ranks about 376th all-time - nowhere near top 30... Otoh, guys like Wade or Moses Malone and every other top 30 player has TOWERING LEGENDARY performance - that's required to be top 30

[8Ball]

8 All NBA teams in the 90s. 3 1st team All-NBA
9 All Defensive teams in the 90s.

Top 5.

55 wins in 94 (Jordan never did this without pippen)
59 wins in 2000 (Jordan never did this without pippen)


Everyone reading my posts knows I am right and argument is over.

We shall move on to the next 3ball lie after the commercial break.

[3ball]

8 All NBA teams in the 90s
9 All Defensive teams in the 90s.

Top 5.

55 wins in 94
59 wins in 2000.

all-nba accolades is what were disputing

all-nba accolades are the only thing indicating top 10, while his performance and stats don't

And pippen averaged 10 ppg when he won 59 games - he was the 6th best player on the team - he did literally nothing and his choke cost the Blazers the 00' championship, just like he cost the bulls rings from 88-90'

[8Ball]

Jordan would have won a lot more games in Washington if he played to Pippen's level in Portland.

8 All NBA teams in the 90s
9 All Defensive teams in the 90s.

Top 5.

55 wins in 94
59 wins in 2000.

Facts.

[3ball]

Jordan would have won a lot more games in Washington if he played to Pippen's level in Portland.






Jordan in Wizards.'.. 21/6/4 on 43%... 18 more wins for Wizards
Pippen in Portland... 11/5/5 on 43%... no win improvement


So stop lying

And Pippen's all-nba means zero because that's what we're disputing - his accolades are undeserved and aren't supported by anything...

He'd be Perry Jones without mj

[8Ball]

We still have yet explained 1-9 yet but our resident Jordan stan has already commented:


It's bad that Jordan went 1-9

[3ball]

We still have yet explained 1-9 yet but our resident Jordan stan has already commented:


Lebron went 1-9 with good teams and top seeds

So he sucks compared to Jordan

[97 bulls]

Well...Madonna certainly does her part.

https://imgur.com/vyE0GhE

Lol

[Round Mound]

Pippen was one of the GOAT Team Players. Sacrificing stats and making others better. Its increidible that BJ and Grant where All Stars the year Pippen was a Top 5-6 Player in the Game. Pippen was a glue guy for the Bulls he made it all happen.

[SATAN]

Wow 3ball really got slaughtered itt

[Magic Is Magic]

My formula has Scottie ranked 33rd all time. An all time player all the way, ranked just behind Wade [#32] and just above Curry [#34].

[3ball]

Pippen was one of the GOAT Team Players. Sacrificing stats and making others better. Its increidible that BJ and Grant where All Stars the year Pippen was a Top 5-6 Player in the Game. Pippen was a glue guy for the Bulls he made it all happen.


All the growth of Pippen, Grant and BJ occurred under Jordan.. literally all of it

Pippen, Grant and BJ grew from single-digit rookies in 88' to all-stars by 94' - pippen literally doubled his scoring average from rookie to sophomore year - that doesn't happen alongside a ball hog with poor brand.

You're forgetting that ball-dominators are dribbling the ball, so they can't be assisted by teammates and shut down ball movement (ball-dominance kills ball-movement).. So Jordan took a lot of shots but he was an assist TARGET - he didn't dominate the ball, so guys like Pippen had the ball in their hands with open lanes because the defense is leaning towards off-ball Jordan wherever he goes..

Obviously, this is a stark contrast to lebron, whose unassisted, ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping, talent-based winning).. talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement teams, so lebron has a lottery record vs Mavs, Spurs and Warriors.

[3ball]

My formula has Scottie ranked 33rd all time. An all time player all the way, ranked just behind Wade [#32] and just above Curry [#34].


The PER formula has Pippen at 132

The WS/48 formula has Pippen at 129

The peak VORP formula has Pippen at 96

The OBPM formula has Pippen at 90

The TS formula has Pippen outside the top 250


^^^ all the formulas that measure actual production have pippen between 90 and 250... :confusedshrug:

[Round Mound]

The PER formula has Pippen at 132

The WS/48 formula has Pippen at 129

The peak VORP formula has Pippen at 96

The OBPM formula has Pippen at 90

The TS formula has Pippen outside the top 250


^^^ all the formulas that measure actual production have pippen between 90 and 250... :confusedshrug:

You are hiding info dude: That's because he played with the ball hog Jordan for most of his career so his stats are lowered. Pippen as the 1st option without Jordan or onother team was 4th in PER, 7th and 1st in DRT, 3rd in Box Plus/Minus etc. Had Pippen played on another team or without Jordan for 8-9 years his stats would look closer to the 93-94 season. There is a reason why Jordan did not wan't to play without Scottie. No other player would sacrifice more stats than Pippen in order for the Bulls to be succesfull. Stop hiding info!

[3ball]

You are hiding info dude: That's because he played with the ball hog Jordan for most of his career





Peak ppg + apg


92' PIPPEN... 21.0 and 7.0 = 28.0 total production
94' PIPPEN... 22.0 and 5.6 = 27.6 total production


CONCLUSION - pippen's peak raw production was higher under Jordan and he played to capacity next to him

Pippen also grew by leaps and bounds next to Jordan - 7 ppg to 14 ppg in Year 2.... Then all-star.... That's the fastest and the most anyone has ever grown alongside an all-time great




You are hiding info dude: That's because he played with the ball hog Jordan for most of his career



You're forgetting that ball-dominators are dribbling the ball, so they can't be assisted by teammates and shut down ball movement (ball-dominance kills ball-movement)..

So Jordan took a lot of shots but he didn't dominate the ball and was an assist TARGET - so guys like Pippen had the ball in their hands with open lanes because the defense is leaning towards off-ball Jordan wherever he goes..

Ultimately, Jordan's off-ball ability allowed Pippen/Grant/BJ to have the ball in their hands, so they grew to full capacity..

Obviously, this is a stark contrast to lebron, whose unassisted, ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping, talent-based winning).. talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement teams, so lebron has a lottery record vs Mavs, Spurs and Warriors.

[dankok8]

Enough revisionist history guys! The 1994 Bulls were a pretty good team which you would expect from a GOAT-level team that lost it's best player. However don't overstate 55 wins and +2.87 SRS (11th) and 106.1 ORtg (14th). And in 1995 they were on pace for 44 win and had around +1 SRS without MJ. With him they won 6 of 7 titles in the 90's and were one of the GOAT offensive teams. If anything that shows MJ is the GOAT.

[Round Mound]

:banana:

[2ball]

Friendly Pippen reminder for 3ball ;)

[dankok8]

Pippen won 55 games with BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant in 93-94.
Lebron won 51 games with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love in 16-17.

Pippen > Lebron? :confusedshrug:

[GOBB]

Pippen would’ve been Packers Paul George status if he was a #1.

[3ball]

These where his stats without MJ:

Pippen when Jordan left:

Raw Stats;

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG and 0.8 BPG!

55 Wins (2 Less Than With MJ The Year Prior!)

Advanced Stats and Metrics

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
*1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
*1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)
Career 125.1 (45th)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1990-91 NBA .179 (15th)
1991-92 NBA .192 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA .194 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA .188 (10th)
1995-96 NBA .209 (9th)
1996-97 NBA .203 (9th)
1997-98 NBA .193 (8th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
*1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)
Career 63.2 (24th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th)
Career NBA 1.8 (34th)
Career 1.8 (37th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
*1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
Career NBA 2.3 (89th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
*1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
*1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (35th)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
*1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7 (10th)
1997-98 NBA 98.8 (12th)
Career NBA 101.5 (67th)
Career 101.5 (81st)


*Notice The Year 1993-94 and some games of the next season STATS WITHOUT MJ!




^^^ those are pippen's peak stats, which aren't anywhere near a top 10 peak in the 90's

so OP is a idiot for thinking pippen's peak is anywhere NEAR a top 10 peak in the 90's - it isn't, so the OP is confirmed as dumb

prime Pippen's play was pedestrian and matched by bums like Horry (95' Finals), JR Smith (15' ECF), and Hughes (05') - it simply wasn't that high a level - anyone reached it






These where his stats without MJ:

Pippen when Jordan left





Prime Pippen............ 19/7 on 45%

JR Smith 15' ECF...... 18/8 on 50%

R Horry 94' Finals.... 18/10 on 50%

L Hughes 05' RS...... 22/6 on 45%


Prime Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable by regular players, whereas pippen's pedestrian stats were routinely matched by bums like Horry (94' Finals), JR Smith (15' ECF), or Hughes (05')...

That's the caliber of sidekick production that mj won 6 rings with (peak horry or JR) - the stats don't lie

[Round Mound]

Scottie Pippen 1993-1994 Highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSDMPuJdYNQ

Scottie Pippen 1994-1995 Season Highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbRSfGz01Pw&t=1150s

Enjoy! :bowdown:

[3ball]

I'm a girl!





Fixed

[3ball]

Since when is 22/8/5 a top 10 peak of a decade?

Lol

OP is a virgin lesbian.. and a dumb one

[3ball]

.
Only MJ won a bunch of rings with a 2nd option that was far beneath him statistically


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9.............1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031............ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER...'.. 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2............ 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187.......... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1............ 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER...'.. 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0............ 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136............ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.'... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3............ 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122............ 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1............ 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090............ 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7............ 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095............ 16.4


CONCLUSION - only Jordan had a bunch of carry-job rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

sidenote - Terry was better in the 11' Playoffs than most of pippen's championship runs, based on PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM

[2ball]

3ball how much is MJ paying you to defend his honor?

[3ball]

3ball how much is MJ paying you to defend his honor?


LeTeamHopper removed organic brand from the nba (top brand) - so you aren't watching the top brand

Carry on watching the WWE dance routine (3-pt contest).. tell me it doesn't look like a dance rehearsal or routine rather than basketball .. it isn't basketball

[2ball]

LeTeamHopper removed organic brand from the nba (top brand) - so you aren't watching the top brand

Carry on watching the WWE dance routine (3-pt contest).. tell me it doesn't look like a dance rehearsal or routine rather than basketball .. it isn't basketball

Teams trade players all the time. Stop with your organic bullshit.

[3ball]

.
THREAD CLIFFS


Since when is 22/8/5 and 55 wins a top 10 peak of a decade?... That's a Marc Gasol peak and maybe top 30 peak in the decade.

Aside from the Marc Gasol peak, Pippen averaged:

* 17/7/5 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs

* 19 on 42% in 6 Finals combined

* 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons

* 16 on 40% in many series including... 90' ECF.. 92' ECSF.. 93' 1st Rd.. 96' ECSF.. 96' Finals.. 97 1st Rd.. 97' ECF.. 98' ECF.. 98' Finals


Ultimately, prime Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable by regular players, while pippen's pedestrian stats were routinely matched by bums like Horry (94' Finals), JR Smith (15' ECF), or Hughes (05')... That's the caliber of sidekick production that mj won 6 rings with.

[3ball]

.
2010 Wade.... 28 PER... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe..... 21 PER... 4.4 BPM




Teams trade players all the time. Stop with your organic bullshit.


Lebron stacked the deck - he teamed up with Kobe-Pau II but went 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do and nowhere near goat!

Then he wins 53 games and goes 1/4 with Kyrie - he nearly lost the 16' Finals despite Kyrie playing on Wilt's level and destroying Curry.. (lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's thru 4 games)

Then he's lottery with Ingram because he reduced Ingram's BPM, PER, WS/48 and VORP

So the facts are on my side... All you have is your delusions.. carry on

[Round Mound]

3-ball calm down :roll::facepalm

We all know Pippen was a Top 10 Player in the 90's :applause: :rockon:

[3ball]

3-ball calm down :roll::facepalm

We all know Pippen was a Top 10 Player in the 90's :applause: :rockon:


You posted pippen's peak year, which wasn't anywhere near a top 10 season of the 90's

That's a Marc Gasol peak and maybe top 30 peak in the decade.

Otherwise, Pippen averaged:

* 17/7/5 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs

* 19 on 42% in 6 Finals combined

* 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons

* 16 on 40% in many series including... 90' ECF.. 92' ECSF.. 93' 1st Rd.. 96' ECSF.. 96' Finals.. 97 1st Rd.. 97' ECF.. 98' ECF.. 98' Finals


Ultimately, prime Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable by regular players, while pippen's pedestrian stats were routinely matched by bums like Horry (94' Finals), JR Smith (15' ECF), or Hughes (05')... That's the caliber of sidekick production that mj won 6 rings with.

[Round Mound]

You posted pippen's peak year, which wasn't anywhere near a top 10 season of the 90's

That's a Marc Gasol peak and maybe top 30 peak in the decade.

Otherwise, Pippen averaged:

* 17/7/5 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs

* 19 on 42% in 6 Finals combined

* 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons

* 16 on 40% in many series including... 90' ECF.. 92' ECSF.. 93' 1st Rd.. 96' ECSF.. 96' Finals.. 97 1st Rd.. 97' ECF.. 98' ECF.. 98' Finals


Ultimately, prime Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable by regular players, while pippen's pedestrian stats were routinely matched by bums like Horry (94' Finals), JR Smith (15' ECF), or Hughes (05')... That's the caliber of sidekick production that mj won 6 rings with.

Once again stop hiding stats :roll::facepalm. Pippen only had 1 year or season and some games of the next season without Jordan. So his stats would look much better had he been on another team or without Jordan from 1990 to 1998 (his prime). His stats would look like the 93-94 season with just 2 lesser games won without MJ aswell as 4th in PER, 3rd in BPM and 7th and 1st in DRT.

There is areason why MJ said "I will only comeback if Pippen plays along side me"

Pippen sacrificed stats as a 2nd option. in order for the Bulls to win. Jordan never won without Pippen while Pippen did win more without MJ. End of discussion.

[3ball]

Once again stop hiding stats :roll::facepalm. Pippen only had 1 year or season and some games of the next season without Jordan. So his stats would look much better had he been on another team or without Jordan from 1990 to 1998 (his prime). His stats would look like the 93-94 season with just 2 lesser games won without MJ aswell as 4th in PER, 3rd in BPM and 7th and 1st in DRT.

There is areason why MJ said "I will only comeback if Pippen plays along side me"

Pippen sacrificed stats as a 2nd option. in order for the Bulls to win. Jordan never won without Pippen while Pippen did win more without MJ. End of discussion.


Pippen's peak ppg + apg was higher under Jordan, so he didn't sacrifice anything alongside Jordan and played to capacity

So everything you say is a lie - you're literally lying because you can't prove the case for pippen..

pippen's peak raw production was higher under Jordan, while his impact stats were slightly higher in 94' because he was 1st option






Once again stop hiding stats :roll::facepalm. Pippen only had 1 year or season and some games of the next season without Jordan.





your OP showed pippen's peak year, which wasn't anywhere near a top 10 season of the 90's

That's a Marc Gasol peak and maybe top 30 peak in the decade.

Otherwise, Pippen averaged:

* 17/7/5 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs

* 19 on 42% in 6 Finals combined

* 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons

* 16 on 40% in many series including... 90' ECF.. 92' ECSF.. 93' 1st Rd.. 96' ECSF.. 96' Finals.. 97 1st Rd.. 97' ECF.. 98' ECF.. 98' Finals


Ultimately, prime Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable by regular players, while pippen's pedestrian stats were routinely matched by bums like Horry (94' Finals), JR Smith (15' ECF), or Hughes (05')... That's the caliber of sidekick production that mj won 6 rings with.

[Round Mound]

Scottie Pippen 1992 Finals Highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkAVj7gxGAo

:bowdown::cheers::applause::rockon:

[Round Mound]

Scottie Pippen 1991 Finals Highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUhyPHqZZpY

:bowdown::cheers: :applause::rockon:

[3ball]

Scottie Pippen 1992 Finals Highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkAVj7gxGAo

:bowdown::cheers::applause::rockon:


Pippen 1996 Finals - 15/8/5 on 34%

Pippen 1997 Finals - 19/7/3 on 42%

Pippen 1998 Finals - 15/9/5 on 41%

Pippen 1993 Finals - 20 on 45% true shooting


^^^^ worse than Paul George... :yaohappy:... Most overrated player ever

Anytime a series was close or lost was caused by pippen's poor play

[Round Mound]

Scottie Pippen All Star Game Highlights Compilation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB2tK7_8k5o

:bowdown::rockon::cheers::banana:

[3ball]

.
1992 ECSF

X-MAN..... 19 on 50%
PIPPEN.... 16 on 40%


Jordan had to save the team and Pippen from X-man in Game 7 (pippen avoiding eye contact with his bully X-man)


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif


Pippen's poor play nearly caused massive upset

Anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it because mj never had a bad series

[Round Mound]

"He defines the position..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

:bowdown::cheers::applause::rockon: