2 critical points about MJ and Lebron (for reference purposes)

[trada7029]

.
1) if Jordan never existed, then pippen has a 2-year peak of 55 wins and then 41 in 95' (and 2nd Round exit).. That's top 400 all-time, not top 30 - it's Marc Gasol-level, Dominique, Kyle Lowry, or KJ - everyone won 55... so only MJ elevated pippen's Marc Gasol career and caliber to all-time great PERCEPTION and accolades

2) the 09' Cavs had the #3 defense and the 90' Bulls were #19.. so lebron had more defensive help, and Mo was a better offensive player than 90' Pip based on PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, PPG (everything)...

So Lebron was a 60-win favorite for 2 years in a row, with better help on both sides of the ball than 1990 MJ, who was an underdog... Yet lebron left and Jordan stayed.. How can you defend that?

[SouBeachTalents]

everyone won 55
Except Jordan without Pippen

[trada7029]

Except Jordan without Pippen

Again, that's a dumb take and doesn't respond to what I said

Are you guys that dumb for real?

Why are you so afraid of the facts?

This OP - all facts - would get banned on another forum and gets laughed at here

For what?.. what's "ridiculous" about it?.. nothing... It's all facts.. the only thing ridiculous is how ridiculous the facts make lebron look

You guys are just dumb as shit.. dumb americans.. that's why our country is no longer #1 and falling FAST.. dumbasses like you - you're the reason

[Bankaii]

Again, that's a dumb take and doesn't respond to what I said

Are you guys that dumb for real?

Why are you so afraid of the facts?

This OP - all facts - would get banned on another forum and gets laughed at here

For what?.. what's "ridiculous" about it?.. nothing... It's all facts.. the only thing ridiculous is how ridiculous the facts make lebron look
SouthBeach is right tho.
It’s a fact that MJ never won 55 games without Pippen, even tho “everyone does” as you claim.

[trada7029]

SouthBeach is right tho.
It’s a fact that MJ never won 55 games without Pippen, even tho “everyone does” as you claim.

Again, that's a dumb take and not a response to the OP

[tpols]

SouthBeach is right tho.
It’s a fact that MJ never won 55 games without Pippen, even tho “everyone does” as you claim.

Who were the other stars MJ played with?

[RRR3]

Who were the other stars MJ played with?
Who were the other stars Pippen played with in 94? Who were the other stars LeBron played with in 09 and 10?

[trada7029]

Who were the other stars Pippen played with in 94? Who were the other stars LeBron played with in 09 and 10?


Did you read the OP?

The Cavs had the #3 defense in 2009... The 90' bulls had the #19 defense..

The Cavs also had a better offense and Mo was better than pippen in every metric (BPM, PER, VORP, WS/48, PPG, efficiency)

So Lebron was a 60-win favorite for 2 years in a row, with better help on both sides of the ball than 1990 MJ, who was an underdog... Yet lebron left and Jordan stayed.. How can you defend that?

[RRR3]

Did you read the OP?

The Cavs had the #3 defense in 2009... The 90' bulls had the #19 defense..

The Cavs also had a better offense and Mo was better than pippen in every metric (BPM, PER, VORP, WS/48, PPG, efficiency)

So Lebron was a 60-win favorite for 2 years in a row, with better help on both sides of the ball than 1990 MJ, who was an underdog... Yet lebron left and Jordan stayed.. How can you defend that?
Mo was a complete scrub. LeBron made him look good because he gets the most out of his teammates unlike MJ.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Theres no need to defend anything tbh. Lebron is not even a top 3 player of all time yet, he has to surpass Kareem and Magic first before we can even compare him to MJ. The more you think about it, the more you start to understand that all the MJ vs Lebron debate was nothing but a plot. We all know Lebron aint as good as MJ, but all these comparisons/discussions make the fans feel that Lebron is already second to MJ. In fact, Lebron hasnt even surpassed Magic yet, all the MJ vs Lebron campaigns aim at making us believe/accept that Lebron is already ahead of Kareem/Magic, leaving the latter two out of the discussion.

[1987_Lakers]

Mo was a complete scrub. LeBron made him look good because he gets the most out of his teammates unlike MJ.

True, Mo had the best year of his career playing with LeBron, then fell off a cliff once LeBron left Cleveland. Meanwhile, Pippen had a career year without MJ.

[3ball]

Mo was a complete scrub. LeBron made him look good because he gets the most out of his teammates unlike MJ.


Similar to all of Lebron's key teammates, Mo was already a good player with better raw production before lebron - he was a playmaker (6 apg) but lebron reduced him to a 4 apg spot-up player

It was a sufficient brand for the regular season, but nothing in the playoffs obviously..

Ultimately, Jordan's brand thrived in the 89' playoffs with upset victories in every round, while lebron's 66-win brand was exposed by a 1-star team and underdog opponent

Tbh, Jordan gives pippen props all the time, and I think Lebron should do that for his old buddy Mo - Mo improved the Cavs from 45 to 66 wins and title contenders - him and lebron were tight and lebron doesn't give him enough props..

[Akeem34TheDream]

NPC1: Mj bad lebron good
NPC2: lebron bad mj good

[RRR3]

Similar to all of Lebron's key teammates, Mo was already a good player with better raw production before lebron - he was a playmaker (6 apg) but lebron reduced him to a 4 apg spot-up player

It was a sufficient brand for the regular season, but nothing in the playoffs obviously..

Ultimately, Jordan's brand thrived in the 89' playoffs with upset victories in every round, while lebron's 66-win brand was exposed by a 1-star team and underdog opponent

Tbh, Jordan gives pippen props all the time, and I think Lebron should do that for his old buddy Mo - Mo improved the Cavs from 45 to 66 wins and title contenders - him and lebron were tight and lebron doesn't give him enough props..
Why do you keep lying? You’re a compulsive liar. The highest PPG Mo ever had was with LeBron. Additionally he massively improved with LeBron. The season before he joined the Cavs he had a 0.3 BPM ,56.6 TS% and .091 WS/48. With LeBeast that jumped to a 2.3 BPM, 58.8 TS% and .165 WS/48.

[RRR3]

Literally the only time Mo Williams had a BPM over 0.3 were the two years he played with LeBron. And he had a 2.3 and 1.8 BPM in those two years. Dude was a marginal player LeBron made look like a borderline all-star.

[3ball]

2007 Mo Williams.... 17.3 ppg... 6.1 apg... 44.0 fg
2008 Mo Williams.... 17.2 ppg... 6.3 apg... 48.0 fg
2009 Mo Williams.... 17.8 ppg... 4.1 apg... 46.7 fg


He improved the Cavs 21 wins, and any player will see higher advanced stats on a 66-win team than a bad team

[1987_Lakers]

Similar to all of Lebron's key teammates, Mo was already a good player with better raw production before

Mo's efficiency rose playing with LeBron then took a huge hit when LeBron left to Miami, that is no coincidence. He had the best PER of his career in 2009 playing with LeBron, stop lying.

[1987_Lakers]

2007 Mo Williams.... 17.3 ppg... 6.1 apg... 44.0 fg
2008 Mo Williams.... 17.2 ppg... 6.3 apg... 48.0 fg
2009 Mo Williams.... 17.8 ppg... 4.1 apg... 46.7 fg

2007 Mo : 52 TS%
2008 Mo: 56.6 TS%
2009 & 2010 Mo: 58.8 TS% & 58 TS%
2011 without LeBron: 50 TS%

[RRR3]

Mo's efficiency rose playing with LeBron then took a huge hit when LeBron left to Miami, that is no coincidence. He had the best PER of his career in 2009 playing with LeBron, stop lying.
I already posted the stats. Stats he often uses. Mo was never close to as impactful as he was with LeBron any other year of his career. Snivelball is a compulsive liar. He can’t stop. He makes up stuff constantly. Almost everything he says is horseshit.

[RRR3]

2007 Mo : 52 TS%
2008 Mo: 56.6 TS%
2009 & 2010 Mo: 58.8 TS% & 58 TS%
2011 without LeBron: 50 TS%
Snivelball :roll:

[3ball]

Mo's efficiency rose playing with LeBron then took a huge hit when LeBron left to Miami, that is no coincidence. He had the best PER of his career in 2009 playing with LeBron, stop lying.

His PER was basically the same from 2008 to 2009

But his raw production declined (33% less assists)

Regardless, Mo was a better offensive player than 89' or 90' Pippen, across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48), and the Cavs had a far better defense (#3) than the 90' Bulls (#19)

Yet lebron left and Jordan stayed

[sdot_thadon]

Except Jordan without Pippen
And this is the most informative post in this thread.:applause::applause::applause:

[3ball]

Snivelball :roll:

Mo's raw stats and efficiency in 2008 matched or exceeded his 2009 stats, while his advanced stats were higher because he improved the Cavs 21 wins (impact)

But everyone knows that Mo was broken up when Lebron left and lost motivation.. and unfortunately, the Cavs weren't defending champs, so Mo had no swagger after lebron left like Pippen did for 1 year in 94' (then pippen and the bulls looked shitty in 95')

[1987_Lakers]

Regardless, Mo was a better offensive player than 89' or 90' Pippen, across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48), and the Cavs had a far better defense (#3) than the 90' Bulls (#19)

As an overall player '89 & '90 Pippen was still better than Mo, both gave you similar offensive production, but Pippen's impact on the defensive end was miles ahead of Mo. That's the problem with you, all you do is compare players offensively while completely ignoring the defensive side of the ball.

[3ball]

I already posted the stats. Stats he often uses. Lebron was never close to as impactful as he was with Mo any other year of his career. Snivelball is a compulsive liar. He can’t stop. He makes up stuff constantly. Almost everything he says is horseshit.


Fixed.. lebron's best chemistry was with Mo - Mo showed lebron the best chemistry he's ever had

Mo was the only roster change in 2009 = 21 more wins

Mo turned the Cavs from 45-win, 2nd round losers into 66-win title favorites

^^^ Is there anything untruthful in the above

[warriorfan]

Mo was a complete scrub. LeBron made him look good because he gets the most out of his teammates unlike MJ.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9gGorAfqI

How many times did Scottie Pippen drop 50 points?

:lol

[3ball]

As an overall player '89 & '90 Pippen was still better than Mo, both gave you similar offensive production, but Pippen's impact on the defensive end was miles ahead of Mo. That's the problem with you, all you do is compare players offensively while completely ignoring the defensive side of the ball.


2009 Lebron had the #3 team defense compared to #19 for the 90' Bulls

So lebron had far more defensive help than Jordan, which is partly why he won 66 games..

The other reason was a much better offense, including Mo's superiority over Pippen and 2-time all-star Zydrunas (the pick-n-pop with Big Z was the Cavs' go-to play for YEARS)

[sdot_thadon]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9gGorAfqI

How many times did Scottie Pippen drop 50 points?

:lol

How many times did Scottie cry to make the allstar team as an injury replacement?

[sdot_thadon]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9gGorAfqI

How many times did Scottie Pippen drop 50 points?

:lol

Not only that, here in when the Rockets were wining chips we had a guy on our bench...Tracy Murray deep bench guy, had a 50 point game a few years later. Shit happens when you're a shooter sometimes.

[3ball]

How many times did Scottie cry to make the allstar team as an injury replacement?


Pippen was severely exposed for the 3rd straight season in the 1990 Playoffs.. he couldn't finish the ECF for the 2nd year in a row

(everyone felt that mj could've won both years with a sidekick that could actually finish the series)

Accordingly, no one had confidence in Pippen in 1991 (fool me once), so he wasn't an all-star that year

then pippen cut his teeth AGAIN on the Bad Boys II (92' Knicks), where his shitty play nearly caused massive upset loss..

And during the 93' Playoffs, pippen had lower PER, WS/48, OBPM and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade (45% true shooting in Finals).. then he was destroyed by Ewing in 94'.. outplayed heads-up against Larry Johnson and Penny in 95'... 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs.. 56th option in 99-03' playoffs

[tpols]

Who were the other stars Pippen played with in 94? Who were the other stars LeBron played with in 09 and 10?

:roll:

Lebron played with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love and Anthony ****ing Davis lmao.

MJ played with... just Pippen.

And won more.

[3ball]

Not only that, here in when the Rockets were wining chips we had a guy on our bench...Tracy Murray deep bench guy, had a 50 point game a few years later. Shit happens when you're a shooter sometimes.


Does this happen to Tracy Murray?


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage


And the 09' Cavs had the #3 defense, versus #19 for the 90' Bulls

So lebron had more help on both sides of the ball than 90' MJ, yet he skipped town while MJ stayed

[1987_Lakers]

2009 Lebron had the #3 team defense compared to #19 for the 90' Bulls

So lebron had far more defensive help than Jordan, which is partly why he won 66 games..

Tell me, who were the defensive stoppers on the Cavs besides LeBron? Has it ever occurred to you that the biggest reason why the Cavs finished #3 on defense was because of LeBron who finished 2nd in DPOY voting that year?

All that shows is MJ as a defensive anchor is overrated. When LeBron was at his defensive peak ('09-'13), his defenses never finished worse than #10 in the league, but here you have peak MJ having a #19 defense. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

:roll:

Lebron played with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love and Anthony ****ing Davis lmao.

MJ played with... just Pippen.

And won more.

Only difference is LeBron won without all those guys, MJ didn't win without Pippen. We saw how LeBron did with scrubs in 2018, he led that team to the Finals, we all know what happens to MJ when you give him scrubs, 1st or 2nd round exit guaranteed.

[sdot_thadon]

Pippen was severely exposed for the 3rd straight season in the 1990 Playoffs.. he couldn't finish the ECF for the 2nd year in a row

(everyone felt that mj could've won both years with a sidekick that could actually finish the series)

Accordingly, no one had confidence in Pippen in 1991 (fool me once), so he wasn't an all-star that year

then pippen cut his teeth AGAIN on the Bad Boys II (92' Knicks), where his shitty play nearly caused massive upset loss..

And during the 93' Playoffs, pippen had lower PER, WS/48, OBPM and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade (45% true shooting in Finals).. then he was destroyed by Ewing in 94'.. outplayed heads-up against Larry Johnson and Penny in 95'... 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs.. 56th option in 99-03' playoffs
You can spew bs about Scottie as many thousands
Of times it takes for you to feel ok with MJ's place in your life....but doesn't make it anymore true.

All you need to know about Scottie is:

-He was a perennial allstar and routinely considered among the top players of the 90s, among stars who led their own teams rather than other 2nd options.

-He was selected as one of the 50 greatest players EVER in 96.

-He was an Mvp candidate on his own without Mj in 94.

-He was arguably the best player on the best team ever assembled, the dream team.

-there was a stretch at the beginning of the 2nd 3peat where there was talk of the Bulls maybe having the 2 best players in the game.

-arguably the best perimeter defender ever.

These things happened in real time. I never felt he was close to Mjs level, however this shit you do is pathetic. That Scottie guy was a decent player.


He helped me so much in the way I approached the game, in the way I played the game. Whenever they speak Michael Jordan, they should speak Scottie Pippen,” Jordan stated. “I didn’t win without Pippen. And that’s why I consider him my best teammate of all time

[sdot_thadon]

Does this happen to Tracy Murray?


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage


And the 09' Cavs had the #3 defense, versus #19 for the 90' Bulls

So lebron had more help on both sides of the ball than 90' MJ, yet he skipped town while MJ stayed

And how was Mo "the target" Williams on defense that year? You watch any games then?

Boy couldn't hold a cup of water with 2 handles....

[Manny98]

Does this happen to Tracy Murray?


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage


And the 09' Cavs had the #3 defense, versus #19 for the 90' Bulls

So lebron had more help on both sides of the ball than 90' MJ, yet he skipped town while MJ stayed
Cavs without LeBron = 11 wins
Bulls without MJ = 55 wins

[warriorfan]

Scottie Pippen is probably the most overrated player of all time.

[3ball]

Tell me, who were the defensive stoppers on the Cavs besides LeBron? Has it ever occurred to you that the biggest reason why the Cavs finished #3 on defense was because of LeBron who finished 2nd in DPOY voting that year?

All that shows is MJ as a defensive anchor is overrated. When LeBron as at his defensive peak ('09-'13), his defenses never finished worse than #10 in the league, but here you have peak MJ having a #19 defense. :oldlol:


Jordan never had a big man average more than 0.5 blocks, whereas Zydrunas averaged 2.5 as an all-star in 2005, and was still getting 1.3 along with Ben Wallace in 2009.

So Lebron had far better rim protection, far more athletic guards and more defensive rebounders/bangers inside (aka all-defense Varejao, Wallace, Zydrunas, Hickson).. then Jamison was added in 2010 (22/9) and Shaq (1.5 blocks in 2010)

Btw, Jordan led the 88' Bulls to the #3 defense because he was DPOY and had a great banger like 09' Lebron had (oakley led league in rebounds)

(edit: Corzine averaged 0.8 blocks)

[sdot_thadon]

And Lebron never got to play with a defender who may have been better than him at that moment in time, Mj did.

[RRR3]

:roll:

Lebron played with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love and Anthony ****ing Davis lmao.

MJ played with... just Pippen.

And won more.
Literally not what I asked. Way to doge the question, snivelpols

[3ball]

Only difference is LeBron won without all those guys, MJ didn't win without Pippen. We saw how LeBron did with scrubs in 2018, he led that team to the Finals, we all know what happens to MJ when you give him scrubs, 1st or 2nd round exit guaranteed.


1-star teams won the East in:

01', 02', 03', 07', 09', 19', 20'

Only lebron's super-teams from 11-17' interrupted the trend of 1-star teams winning the East

So who cares about carry-jobs against shitty teams..

Jordan's 89' Bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs and their 3 all-stars - that's a better team than the 09' Magic and any team lebron beat in the East..

So Jordan's 89' bulls would've won the 07', 09', and 18' East because they beat a better team in 89'

Ultimately, the 1-star teams that won the 00's East would have no chance in the 80's East, which required a super-team to win it

[RRR3]

I legit can’t comprehend sniveling about how great LeBron is every day of your life because you’re jealous he’s better than your favorite player (Tpols) or that he might be better than your favorite player (3ball). Get over it it’s not healthy.

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan never had a big man average more than 0.5 blocks, whereas Zydrunas averaged 2.5 as an all-star in 2005, and was still getting 1.3 along with Ben Wallace in 2009.

So Lebron had far better rim protection, far more athletic guards and more defensive rebounders (bangers inside, aka all-defense Varejao, Wallace, Zydrunas, Hickson).. then Jamison was added in 2010 (22/9) and Shaq (1.5 blocks in 2010)

Btw, Jordan led the 88' Bulls to the #3 defense because he was DPOY and had great bangers like 09' Lebron had (oakley led league in rebounds)

Ilgauskas was a snail, bad pick and roll defender, mostly known for his offense. Dwight Howard destroyed him in the playoffs, which is a big reason why the Cavs went after Shaq the next year, Ben Wallace was 34 years old and obviously past his prime. We all know LeBron was the true defensive anchor on that team. None of LeBron's teammates were anything to talk about on the defensive end. We all know this.

[tpols]

Only difference is LeBron won without all those guys, MJ didn't win without Pippen. .

You don't get credit for team hopping... that's a negative. MJ didn't play with anybody outside Pippen. Why would you think MJ couldn't win with Wade or AD when he won 6 rings with Pippen? Are you going to lie and say Wade and AD aren't better than Pippen? That would be like if MJ got to play with Barkley and Hakeem of his day. And throw in Kevin Johnson, Larry Johnson, and Buck Williams. How can you deny what would happen if MJ had that type of help?

[1987_Lakers]

You don't get credit for team hopping... that's a negative. MJ didn't play with anybody outside Pippen. Why would you think MJ couldn't win with Wade or AD when he won 6 rings with Pippen? Are you going to lie and say Wade and AD aren't better than Pippen? That would be like if MJ got to play with Barkley and Hakeem of his day. And throw in Kevin Johnson, Larry Johnson, and Buck Williams. How can you deny what would happen if MJ had that type of help?

LeBron played in a tougher league, you really think MJ wins 6 titles in the middle of his prime with the KD-Curry Warriors also in the league? MJ would get spanked. Let's be real, '12-'14 Wade was comparable to a prime Pippen, Wade was past his prime by that point so in reality LeBron won 2 titles with a Pippen esque sidekick, and in 2016 he beat a 73 win team with a sidekick (Kyrie) who to this point has only made 2 All-NBA Teams his entire career, that 73 win Warriors team was also better than any team the Bulls beat in the Finals.

The only teammate LeBron won with who was a legit All-NBA First team guy was AD, and guess what, it was AD who joined LeBron.

[3ball]

Tell me, who were the defensive stoppers on the Cavs besides LeBron? Has it ever occurred to you that the biggest reason why the Cavs finished #3 on defense was because of LeBron who finished 2nd in DPOY voting that year?

All that shows is MJ as a defensive anchor is overrated. When LeBron was at his defensive peak ('09-'13), his defenses never finished worse than #10 in the league, but here you have peak MJ having a #19 defense. :oldlol:


* Hughes was 1st team all-defense in 2005, while lebron wasn't all-defense until 2009

* Varejao was all-defense

* Ben Wallace was still a good defender

* Zydrunas averaged 2.5 blocks in 2005, and was still at 1.3 in 2009


Overall, Lebron had better rim protection, more athletic guards, and more good rebounders/bangers


Mosgov..... 1.5 blk
Zydrunas... 2.5 blk
Shaq.......... 1.5 blk
Wallace..... 1.3 blk

Cartwright... 0.5 blk


Btw, Jordan led the 88' bulls to the #3 defense because he was DPOY

[tpols]

LeBron played in a tougher league

:roll:

No he didn't. He played in the weakest conference ever for the first 16 seasons of his career.

Wade was also peak/prime when Lebron joined him. Now he doesn't count.

Why are you lying?

[1987_Lakers]

* Hughes was 1st team all-defense in 2005, while lebron wasn't all-defense until 2009


WTF does Larry Hughes have to do with the 2009 Cavs? I wasn't aware he was on the Cavs roster, God you are a retard. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

:roll:

No he didn't. He played in the weakest conference ever for the first 16 seasons of his career.

Wade was also peak/prime when Lebron joined him. Now he doesn't count.

Why are you lying?

The NBA was so weak that they had to shorten the 3 point line in the 90's to help players shoot, can you imagine the NBA doing something like that today? Not to mention expansion in the late 80's - mid 90's took away all the super teams, LeBron has played against super teams throughout his career.

And Wade was only an All-NBA 3rd team player when Miami won championships with LeBron, far from a top 5 player by that point, again comparable to Pippen, maybe Pippen was even better to be honest.

Why are you lying?

[3ball]

LeBron played in a tougher league, you really think MJ wins 6 titles in the middle of his prime with the KD-Curry Warriors also in the league?





Jordan would be unstoppable with a 3rd star teammate - lebron should never have lost with his big 3's

KD had Curry, but Lebron had the guy that destroyed Curry and is currently superior (kyrie)

And the KD-warriors were only 2 years - lebron was only 3-4 (losing record) against the Spurs/Mavs/Warriors/Thunder before KD

Finally, lebron had a free pass to the Finals by forming a super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning.. he got more opportunities at a title than other guys because he stacked the deck in a weak conference

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan would be unstoppable with a 3rd star teammate - lebron should never have lost with his big 3's



We saw MJ with a 3rd All-Star teammate in '96 with Rodman, MJ shot 41% in the Finals. :oldlol:

[3ball]

WTF does Larry Hughes have to do with the 2009 Cavs? I wasn't aware he was on the Cavs roster, God you are a retard. :oldlol:


Good defenders that Jordan played with

Pippen
Grant
Rodman
Harper
Cartwright (0.5 blk)


Good defenders that Lebron played with

Hughes
Varejao
Wallace
Zydrunas (2.5 blk)
Mosgov
Wade
Birdman
Battier
Shumpert

[3ball]

We saw MJ with a 3rd All-Star teammate in '96 with Rodman, MJ shot 41% in the Finals. :oldlol:

Rodman was 36 years old and hadn't been an all-star since 92'

He averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs and wasn't a starter in 98' Playoffs.. he wasn't all-defense those years either

So 36-year Rodman = 10' Shaq

Otoh, Bosh and Love were perennial all-stars and sacrificed their PRIME for bron-ball

[1987_Lakers]

Good defenders that Jordan played with

Pippen
Grant
Rodman
Harper
Cartwright (0.5 blk)


Good defenders that Lebron played with

Hughes
Varejao
Wallace
Zydrunas (2.5 blk)
Mosgov
Wade
Birdman
Battier
Shumpert

MJ played with the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history the majority of his career, LeBron never had a defender like that on his team pretty much most of his career. Try again.

[1987_Lakers]

Rodman was 36 years old and hadn't been an all-star since 92'

Rodman = 10' Shaq

Otoh, Bosh and Love were perennial all-stars and sacrificed their PRIME for bron-ball

So lets look at the '96 East roster, do you consider Vin Baker & Juwan Howard to be better players than Rodman, a guy who led the league in rebounds and made All-NBA Defense?

I consider Kyrie an All-Star in 2016, but if you want to get technical about it then LeBron beat a 73 win team in the Finals without an All-Star which is a greater achievement than MJ ever did.

[3ball]

1-star teams won the East in:

01', 02', 03', 07', 09', 19', 20'

Only lebron's super-teams from 11-17' interrupted the trend of 1-star teams winning the East

So who cares about carry-jobs against shitty teams..

Jordan's 89' Bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs and their 3 all-stars - that's a better team than the 09' Magic and any team lebron beat in the East..

So Jordan's 89' bulls would've won the 07', 09', and 18' East because they beat a better team in 89'

Ultimately, the 1-star teams that won the 00's East would have no chance in the 80's East, which required a super-team to win it





No one

[RRR3]

:roll:

No he didn't. He played in the weakest conference ever for the first 16 seasons of his career.

Wade was also peak/prime when Lebron joined him. Now he doesn't count.

Why are you lying?
See it’s impossible to take you seriously when you lie like this. The East was better than the west in 09 and close a few other years. Never in LeBron’s career did we see a below .500 team making the CF. Magic encountered that in the 80s and you never hold that against him. We all know you’re just having a perpetual tantrum over the fact that LeBron shits on your hero. Get over it already.

[RRR3]

No one
The Magic had 3 Allstars in 09 you tard.

[1987_Lakers]

See it’s impossible to take you seriously when you lie like this. The East was better than the west in 09 and close a few other years. Never in LeBron’s career did we see a below .500 team making the CF. Magic encountered that in the 80s and you never hold that against him. We all know you’re just having a perpetual tantrum over the fact that LeBron shits on your hero. Get over it already.

At least LeBron played some decent teams in the East, '08-'12 Celtics, '11 Bulls, Magic, & Indiana is solid competition, Magic played absolute crap teams in the West up until 1988.

[3ball]

So lets look at the '96 East roster, do you consider Vin Baker & Juwan Howard to be better players than Rodman, a guy who led the league in rebounds and made All-NBA Defense?

I consider Kyrie an All-Star in 2016, but if you want to get technical about it then LeBron beat a 73 win team in the Finals without an All-Star which is a greater achievement than MJ ever did.

Huh?

F*ck yeah peak Howard and Vin Baker were superior to Rodman...

Are you on drugs?

Heck, forget Rodman - Howard destroyed Pippen in the 97' Playoffs heads-up, and peak Vin Baker was far better than pippen ever was.. Vin would win 10 with MJ assuming he doesn't flame out as an alcoholic

Regarding Rodman, he averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs and wasn't a starter in 98' Playoffs.. he wasn't all-defense those years either

Again, 36-year Rodman = 10' Shaq... By comparing him to peak Vin Baker shows you know nothing about the 90's... :oldlol:... no problem bro.. I'll school you

[RRR3]

At least LeBron played some decent teams in the East, '08-'12 Celtics, '11 Bulls, Magic, & Indiana is solid competition, Magic played absolute crap teams in the West up until 1988.
Tpols doesn’t care because he doesn’t see Magic as a threat to the guy who makes his privates tingle (Kobe).

[tpols]

It's incredible bro. We have two decades worth of data showing the East was far weaker than the West.

Now Dwayne Wade doesn't count.

Like... :oldlol: .

All you can do is sit back and laugh.

[1987_Lakers]

Huh?

Heck, forget Rodman - Howard destroyed Pippen in the 97' Playoffs heads-up, and peak Vin Baker was far better than pippen ever was.. Vin would win 10 with MJ assuming he doesn't flame out as an alcoholic

Regarding Rodman, he averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs and wasn't a starter in 98' Playoffs.. he wasn't all-defense those years either

Again, 36-year Rodman = 10' Shaq... By comparing him to peak Vin Baker shows you know nothing about the 90's... :oldlol:... no problem bro.. I'll school you

This is why no one takes you seriously. An no, Baker was not better than '96 Finals MVP Rodman.

[1987_Lakers]

It's incredible bro. We have two decades worth of data showing the East was far weaker than the West.

Now Dwayne Wade doesn't count.

Like... :oldlol: .

All you can do is sit back and laugh.

You got schooled once I showed you Wade was past his prime when Miami won chips.

Acting like LeBron won titles with a peak Wade out there. GTFO. :oldlol:

[3ball]

The Magic had 3 Allstars in 09 you tard.

Jameer Nelson didn't play in the 09' ECF

The Cavs were favored against a healthy Magic and became massive favorites when Jameer went out..

Heck, Dwight beat lebron with the And1 point guard ("skip to my lou").. you can't make this shit up... :roll:

The 09' Cavs were one of the 5 biggest favorites ever to lose a playoff series

Ultimately, lebron's 1 seed lost to the #4 SRS Magic, while Jordan's 6 seed beat the #1 SRS Cavs and their 3 all-stars in 89' - that's better than 09' Magic and better than any team lebron beat in the East...

So Jordan's 80's bulls would win the 09' East, but the 1-star teams that won the 00's East would have zero chance in the 80's East, which required a super-team to win it

[RRR3]

Jameer Nelson didn't play in the 09' ECF

The Cavs were favored against a healthy Magic and became massive favorites when Jameer went out..

Heck, Dwight beat lebron with the And1 point guard ("skip to my lou").. you can't make this shit up... :roll:

The 09' Cavs were one of the 5 biggest favorites ever to lose a playoff series

Ultimately, lebron's 1 seed lost to the #4 SRS Magic, while Jordan's 6 seed beat the #1 SRS Cavs and their 3 all-stars in 89' - that's better than 09' Magic and better than any team lebron beat in the East
LeBron had arguably the best series of his career against the Magic. Blaming him for that just makes you look brain dead. Which you are. And a confirmed liar. Tell us more about how you played D1 ball you ****ing liar :roll: The last time you played basketball was probably 3rd grade :lol

[RRR3]

You got schooled once I showed you Wade was past his prime when Miami won chips.

Acting like LeBron won titles with a peak Wade out there. GTFO. :oldlol:
Notice how he ignored the weak 80s West. Like LeBron couldn’t beat a bunch of sub-.500 teams in the playoffs. But Magic’s rings with Kareem Worthy and great role players are legit and LeBron’s ring with AD+actual trash doesn’t count :roll:

[GrayGoat]

No Pip no Chip

[3ball]

.
Playoffs

14' Wade...... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen.... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade...... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg..
93' Pippen.... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg..




You got schooled once I showed you Wade was past his prime when Miami won chips.

Acting like LeBron won titles with a peak Wade out there. GTFO. :oldlol:


96-98' Playoffs

Pippen... 17/7/5 on 41%


^^^ 96' pippen was past his prime, and 93' Pippen was worse than 14' Wade (see stats above)

[1987_Lakers]

.
Playoffs

14' Wade...... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen.... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade...... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg..
93' Pippen.... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg..






96-98' Playoffs

Pippen... 17/7/5 on 41%


^^^ so pippen was past his prime in 96', and was worse than 14' Wade in 93' (see stats above)

PER doesn't take into account defense and Pippen is one of the greatest defenders ever. Are we really going to go over this again? You are only showing offensive stats.

LeBron won 2 titles with a Pippen esque teammate in Miami.

[3ball]

LeBron had arguably the best series of his career against the Magic. Blaming him for that just makes you look brain dead. Which you are. And a confirmed liar. Tell us more about how you played D1 ball you ****ing liar :roll: The last time you played basketball was probably 3rd grade :lol


Jordan never lost when he had a top defense and 18 on 38% from a sidekick

Let alone as a historic favorite

But Stan Van Gundy said they "wanted lebron to dribble and get stats".. so that series was our first example of bron-ball being a poor brand that underachieves in the playoffs.. it was the first of many underachievements

Ultimately,

* lebron loses to 1-star teams (09', 11') and MJ didn't
* Lebron loses with good teams (1 or 2 seeds) and MJ didn't
* lebron loses as the favorite or even money (09-11' and 14') and MJ didn't

Finally, in 18 years, lebron never beat a good team (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams), whereas Jordan did it all the time

[Overdrive]

This is why no one takes you seriously. An no, Baker was not better than '96 Finals MVP Rodman.

Depends. For a short amount of time you could have Vin Baker as a first option on a 2nd round team. Rodman not so much. Rodman is what Draymond showed us last year. A player that puts very good teams over the top, but can't run a team on his own. HoF talent for sure, but on an island he's useless.

Saying Baker is better than Pippen is retarded though.

[tpols]

Vin Baker is one of those dudes that is lost in history. He definitely had more savvy and skill than a lot of players and was an all star. If he played on great teams, he'd have some clout.

[1987_Lakers]

Depends. For a short amount of time you could have Vin Baker as a first option on a 2nd round team. Rodman not so much. Rodman is what Draymond showed us last year. A player that puts very good teams over the top, but can't run a team on his own. HoF talent for sure, but on an island he's useless.

Saying Baker is better than Pippen is retarded though.

I can agree with that, but do the Bulls in 1996 trade Rodman for Baker or Howard straight up? Hell no. Rodman was the glue to that '96 team, he gave you extra possessions with his rebounding and a huge part to why their defense was so dominant, he was a perfect fit for that team. Kenny Smith is on record as saying he thinks his Rockets team would beat the 1st 3 peat Bulls but lose to the '96 team because Rodman was such a dominant force on the boards.

[3ball]

In 1990, MJ was an underdog with the #19 defense and #5 offense in a super-team conference.

In 2010, Lebron was the league favorite with the #3 defense and the #4 offense in a 1-star team conference

1990 JORDAN.... #19 defense... #5 offense... underdog... super-team needed to win conference
2009 LEBRON....... #3 defense... #4 offense... favorite..... 1-star teams win conference


Yet lebron left and Jordan stayed.. How can anyone defend that?

[1987_Lakers]

In 1990, MJ was an underdog with the #19 defense and #5 offense in a super-team conference.

In 2010, Lebron was the league favorite with the #3 defense and the #4 offense in a 1-star team conference

1990 JORDAN.... #19 defense... #5 offense... underdog... super-team needed to win conference
2009 LEBRON....... #3 defense... #4 offense... favorite..... 1-star teams win conference


Yet lebron left and Jordan stayed.. How can anyone defend that?

Easy to stay when you have Phil Jackson and an up and coming top 50 player ever Pippen, LeBron had none of that.

[3ball]

Easy to stay when you have Phil Jackson and an up and coming top 50 player ever Pippen, LeBron had none of that.


Brown was coach of the year in 2009, while Phil wasn't coach of the year until 96' (Phil had to win 72 to get COY with Jordan)

Coach Brown's defense led the Cavs to 7 games against the 08' Celtics despite lebron wetting the bed with 26 on 35%

So you're just making excuses.. lebron had the best coach in the league and a far better offense and defense than Jordan.. yet he jumped ship as the league favorite, while mj stayed as a big underdog



Easy to stay when you have Phil Jackson and an up and coming top 50 player ever Pippen, LeBron had none of that.


A 1-star underdog won the 2011 title, so that's a title lebron left on the table by team-hopping.. it was perfect karma that Dirk destroyed lebron by doing what lebron thought was impossible (win with a 1-star team)

It's sad because lebron would've been a massive favorite in 2011 as the league favorite for 3 years running - those Cavs would've added a 3rd all-star-caliber teammate like they did in 09' and 10'..... and most importantly, they possessed the organic experience/teamwork needed to beat the underdog Mavs

[RRR3]

Brown was coach of the year in 2009, while Phil wasn't coach of the year until 96' (Phil had to win 72 to get COY with Jordan)

Coach Brown's defense led the Cavs to 7 games against the 08' Celtics despite lebron wetting the bed with 26 on 35%

So you're just making excuses.. lebron had the best coach in the league and a far better offense and defense than Jordan.. yet he jumped ship as the league favorite, while mj stayed as a big underdog





A 1-star underdog won the 2011 title, so that's a title lebron left on the table by team-hopping.. it was perfect karma that Dirk destroyed lebron by doing what lebron thought was impossible (win with a 1-star team)

It's sad because lebron would've been a massive favorite in 2011 as the league favorite for 3 years running - those Cavs would've added a 3rd all-star-caliber teammate like they did in 09' and 10'..... and most importantly, they possessed the organic experience/teamwork needed to beat the underdog Mavs
https://static.flickr.com/6/102645224_91633c56c1.jpg

[1987_Lakers]

Brown was coach of the year in 2009, while Phil wasn't coach of the year until 96' (Phil had to win 72 to get COY with Jordan)


Mike Brown, lmao.

You know who else has won COY in the last 15 years? Dwane Casey, Byron Scott, Scott Brooks, Sam Mitchell, & Avery Johnson. Not exactly elite coaches. We all know Kobe ran Mike Brown out of LA cause he was so bad.

[GrayGoat]

No Pip no chip

[SATAN]

This Andrew guy is a real attention whore.

That being said, 1-9.

[3ball]

Mike Brown, lmao.

You know who else has won COY in the last 15 years? Dwane Casey, Byron Scott, Scott Brooks, Sam Mitchell, & Avery Johnson. Not exactly elite coaches. We all know Kobe ran Mike Brown out of LA cause he was so bad.


Who needed to jump ship more?:


09' and 10' Lebron

- league favorite
- coach of the year
- better team offense and defense
- 3 players with all-star experience
- 1-star team conference (1-star teams won conference)


89' and 90' Jordan

- underdog
- 1st time nobody coach
- worse team offense and defense
- young team of rookies and sophomores
- super-team conference (super-team needed to win conference)

[red1]

https://static.flickr.com/6/102645224_91633c56c1.jpg