Brandon Ingram is a real star and future MVP candidate [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

light

12-28-2020, 05:56 AM

Only the most clueless fans with the worst eye tests could look at his game and think he wouldn't be good

And how did Lebron not fit with Ingram - it's an indictment on Lebron's skill restriction to ball-domination that many players disappear alongside him (Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Love, Bosh, Crowder, Rose and more)

LeBron did fit with Ingram. He had stretches alongside LeBron where he put up numbers just like this. But the Lakers wanted AD so they had to give up someone talented and BI was it.

dbugz

12-28-2020, 06:37 AM

another lottery year.

Brandon Ingram jacking up shots = no playoffs appearance

:roll:

k0kakw0rld

12-28-2020, 07:24 AM

AussieSteve

12-28-2020, 07:40 AM

8Ball

12-28-2020, 10:38 AM

AD is better fit. The end.

There is something called a trade, where you give up prized assets to acquire other prized assets.

Wouldn't expect 3ball to understand definition of a trade.

8Ball

12-28-2020, 10:39 AM

You.... have no eye test sir and don't know basketball

It's almost as bad as looking at young lebron and saying he won't be shit

Kelly oubre eye test? :roll:

3ball

12-28-2020, 11:55 AM

Looking at BI's stats, 2019 looks completely in place along his development curve. 3ball building straw men here.

I'm not even sure why. Even if BI ends up being great, what does it prove? That he was better in 2019 than some version of Pippen from the late 80s?

:facepalm

it means that if Lebron is goat, he should've won 6 rings with Ingram, who is clearly a pippen-caliber player (actually vastly superior - a ball-handling passer and shooter off-ball.. yikes)

But it wasn't even CLOSE - Ingram wasn't thriving and growing by leaps and bounds like Pippen did alongside MJ (MJ was a player with an off-ball shooting skillset, which puts the ball in pippen/ingram's hands and allows the ball to move)

Specifically, the stats show that lebron ran a "your-turn-my-turn" format alongside Ingram - aka Ingram saw a 25% decline in his assists alongside lebron, so we know he wasn't getting to playmake and was just iso'ing when lebron needed him to...

This is a horrible role because he also had very low catch-and-shoot attempts alongside lebron, so the ball wasn't moving like it does in New Orleans, where Ingram has much higher catch-and-shoot attempts

Ultimately, lebron's your-turn-my-turn approach robbed Ingram of playmaking opportunity and the ball movement (catch-and-shoot) that Ingram excels at.. none of this would be an issue alongside off-ball MJ, which is why Pippen reached max capacity alongside Mike..

any decent coach would see the opportunity to run a ball movement system with Jordan's great fundamentals and goat skill diversity (off-ball/on-ball) - the goat combination of talent and brand would yield the best team ceiling, 6/6

sdot_thadon

12-28-2020, 11:56 AM

*Ingraham

8Ball

12-28-2020, 11:58 AM

Pippen excelled without Jordan.

55 and 59 wins with Jordan sitting at home.

Let's see Ingram win 55 or 59 games.

red1

12-28-2020, 11:58 AM

OP is known here for his rock bottom IQ

this is one of his least cringey takes

ingram is unguardable. a mini-kd. he's going to be nice for a long time.

3ball

12-28-2020, 12:01 PM

*Ingraham

Do yourself a favor, and learn the statistical realities of why Ingram couldn't excel alongside Lebron, while Pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan

See the historical record on this here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?488792-Brandon-Ingram-is-a-real-star-and-future-MVP-candidate&p=14213557&viewfull=1#post14213557)

Ultimately, lebron's your-turn-my-turn approach made Ingram a strict iso guy, thus robbing him of playmaking opportunity and the ball movement (catch-and-shoot) that Ingram excels at in New Orleans.. none of this would be an issue alongside off-ball MJ, which is why Pippen reached max capacity alongside Mike..

any decent coach would see the opportunity to run a ball movement system with Jordan's great fundamentals and goat skill diversity (off-ball/on-ball) - the goat combination of talent and brand would yield the best team ceiling, 6/6

red1

12-28-2020, 12:04 PM

Wizards owner to Gilbert Arenas “Get me out of this MJ horror.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnmdpnV8TqY

https://www.si.com/.image/ar_1:1%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MTY4MTAyMjcxOTk5MjIzMTY4/kwame-brown-michael-jordanjpg.jpg

red1

12-28-2020, 12:05 PM

jordan actually chose kwame himself with the first round pick - he has a rock-bottom ball-IQ just like 3ball :roll:

8Ball

12-28-2020, 12:07 PM

“He (Abe Pollin) told ‘I didn’t like the way Jordan was talking to the team. The way he was treating the team, I asked all the players do they want him back, and the players said no.

“He (Pollin) was like ‘listen if you come here whatever we have, whatever we get, it’s yours. Just get me out of this MJ Horror. You’ll be the face here. We don’t have a star. We have Clint Portis, but you can be the real star with your personality and your play.'”

How Jordan's career ended:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/949f42b13894d3865614b1e08d7177db/tenor.gif

Good one red1.

Lol Wizards owner saw a team cancer and had to boot him out. :oldlol:

red1

12-28-2020, 12:10 PM

How Jordan's career ended:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/949f42b13894d3865614b1e08d7177db/tenor.gif

Good one red1.

Lol Wizards owner saw a team cancer and had to boot him out. :oldlol:

jordan didnt realize that he's a ringless player/GM/owner without pippen.

red1

12-28-2020, 12:11 PM

no pip on the wizards - no chance in hell

3ball

12-28-2020, 12:12 PM

jordan actually chose kwame himself with the first round pick - he has a rock-bottom ball-IQ just like 3ball :roll:

The stats always tell the story

Ingram saw a 25% decline in assists alongside Lebron and much lower catch-and-shoot than he currently gets in New Orleans

So lebron wasn't moving the ball, hence the lack of catch-and-shoot, and was using Ingram as a strict iso guy, (your-turn-my-turn), hence the lower apg.

Pigeon-holing a young player into a strict iso bailout role is the worst brand ever and the quickest way to DESTROY a player - so Pippen's weak iso skill and shooting would get destroyed by Lebron, whereas the superior Ingram was able to keep his head above water and ultimately escape

Carry on tho

red1

12-28-2020, 12:16 PM

The stats always tell the story

Ingram saw a 25% decline in assists alongside Lebron and much lower catch-and-shoot than he currently gets in New Orleans

So lebron wasn't moving the ball (hence the lack of catch-and-shoot), and was using Ingram as a strict iso guy, aka your-turn-my-turn (hence the lower apg)

Pigeon-holing a young player into a strict iso bailout role is the worst brand ever and the quickest way to DESTROY a player - the weak iso and weak shooting pippen wouldn't develop at all alongside lebron
lebron won a ring for the lakers and set them up for the future. the pelicans got themselves a young stud. win-win no? sorta like the original gasol trade.

or did you forget that the lakers are the 2020 defending champions?

meanwhile jordan handpicked kwame brown himself and forgot that he cant win a thing without scottie helping put his pants on in the morning.

mike literally wasted the wizards first pick and had them begging him to leave. these are cold hard facts. :oldlol:

1987_Lakers

12-28-2020, 12:20 PM

Horace Grant, Pippen, & BJ Armstrong all had career years in '94 after MJ left and all made the All-Star team.

Stats always tell the story, amirite?

red1

12-28-2020, 12:24 PM

Horace Grant, Pippen, & BJ Armstrong all had career years in '94 after MJ left and all made the All-Star team.

Stats always tell the story, amirite?

lebron leads scrubs to 50 wins in his sleep - if Im not mistaken ingram lonzo and lebron were on pace for 50 wins and the 4th seed before leGOAT got injured

pippen won 50 games without mike

mike never won 50 without pip

therefore mike without pippen is a ringless volume scorer who also happens to be the worst GM of all-time.

mike is solely responsible for one of the worst busts of all-time. drafting one of the worst busts of all-time screams low basketball IQ, further confirming that pippen was the brains of the team.

RRR3

12-28-2020, 12:24 PM

lebron won a ring for the lakers and set them up for the future. the pelicans got themselves a young stud. win-win no? sorta like the original gasol trade.

or did you forget that the lakers are the 2020 defending champions?

meanwhile jordan handpicked kwame brown himself and forgot that he cant win a thing without scottie helping put his pants on in the morning.

mike literally wasted the wizards first pick and had them begging him to leave. these are cold hard facts. :oldlol:
Rare pic of OP:

https://static.flickr.com/6/102645224_91633c56c1.jpg

red1

12-28-2020, 12:27 PM

Rare pic of OP:

https://static.flickr.com/6/102645224_91633c56c1.jpg

https://media.tenor.com/images/394e9dba5ea2a1dd7f6056564a459ca8/tenor.gif
https://static.flickr.com/6/102645224_91633c56c1.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sabjPvgVby0/TK6oAfEmFnI/AAAAAAAABlo/AgQXLwNrb6c/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/fatman.jpg

3ball

12-28-2020, 12:28 PM

Horace Grant, Pippen, & BJ Armstrong all had career years in '94 after MJ left and all made the All-Star team.

Stats always tell the story, amirite?

1992 Grant... 14/10
1994 Grant... 15/11

1992 Pippen.... 21.0 and 7.0 apg
1994 Pippen.... 22.0 and 5.6 apg

^^^ pippen's peak scoring and assist production was higher alongside mj

So their stats were the same as their highs alongside MJ, aka they played to capacity alongside off-ball MJ.. (btw everyone knows the 93' bulls took the regular season off like a lebron team to rest for the 3-peat run)

So the stats show that Pippen, Grant, and BJ grew by leaps and bounds every year alongside MJ and reached full capacity - from single-digit rookies to all-star.

Otoh, virtually no one grew their stats during their tenure with lebron.. players can't grow alongside lebron's ball-dominant, "john wall" skillset.. lol.. fraud

red1

12-28-2020, 12:29 PM

1992 Grant... 14/10
1994 Grant... 15/11

1992 Pippen.... 21.0 and 7.0 apg
1994 Pippen.... 22.0 and 5.6 apg

^^^ pippen's peak scoring and assist production was higher alongside mj

So their stats were the same as their highs alongside MJ, aka they played to capacity alongside off-ball MJ

So the stats show that Pippen, Grant, and BJ grew by leaps and bounds every year alongside MJ and reached full capacity - from single-digit rookies to all-star.

Otoh, virtually no one grew their stats during their tenure with lebron.. players can't grow alongside lebron's ball-dominant, "john wall" skillset.. lol.. fraud

dude why do you keep bringing up stats from an era where players were smoking and drinking at half-time?

its very dishonest. for all we know pippen would be a 40-20-15 type of player today if he wasnt smoking and drinking at half-time too. mike's stats would drop on the other hand.

YoungDripKing

12-28-2020, 12:36 PM

Brandon just had a MIP season and hes following it up with an even better season. He's already a star in the game. Now we're seeing if he can be a superstar.... so far in the short season he is 27/7/7 with 1 steal on 44% FG and 47% 3pt. Those are superstar numbers for the moment. His playmaking has gone to another level though, thats for sure.

RRR3

12-28-2020, 12:49 PM

https://media.tenor.com/images/394e9dba5ea2a1dd7f6056564a459ca8/tenor.gif
https://static.flickr.com/6/102645224_91633c56c1.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sabjPvgVby0/TK6oAfEmFnI/AAAAAAAABlo/AgQXLwNrb6c/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/fatman.jpg
What a lardbucket. 3piececombos need to put down the KFC

SouBeachTalents

12-28-2020, 12:52 PM

*Ingraham
Never forget, OP is trying to lecture us on a player that he literally didn't even know what his name was :lol

And since Ingram was in middle school when OP stopped watching basketball, he's never even seen him play at any level. Just keep that in mind anytime he makes a thread or posts about Ingraham

Thenameless

12-28-2020, 12:52 PM

Brandon Ingram will be an all star, but I don't think he'll ever reach the level of MVP candidate. There are too many elite players ahead of him, both young and old.

As far as Lebron not being able to play with Ingram, at this point who cares? Lebron and AD accomplished what they and the rest of the Lakers set out to do - win a Championship. The trade has more than paid for itself, and will continue to pay dividends in the future; Lakers cache, current star power, and the winning of the most recent title have already attracted top flight talent willing to take a discount to play with the Purple and Gold.

sdot_thadon

12-28-2020, 02:09 PM

Do yourself a favor, and learn the statistical realities of why Ingram couldn't excel alongside Lebron, while Pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan

See the historical record on this here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?488792-Brandon-Ingram-is-a-real-star-and-future-MVP-candidate&p=14213557&viewfull=1#post14213557)

Ultimately, lebron's your-turn-my-turn approach made Ingram a strict iso guy, thus robbing him of playmaking opportunity and the ball movement (catch-and-shoot) that Ingram excels at in New Orleans.. none of this would be an issue alongside off-ball MJ, which is why Pippen reached max capacity alongside Mike..

any decent coach would see the opportunity to run a ball movement system with Jordan's great fundamentals and goat skill diversity (off-ball/on-ball) - the goat combination of talent and brand would yield the best team ceiling, 6/6

Why don't you do everyone a favor instead, explain to us how Ingraham couldn't excel alongside Lebron when he had indeed his best season to that point in his career. Then he followed it up with an allstar appearance and MIP award....AFTER spending a year next to Lebron. MJ made Scottie right? So I'm guessing Lebron made Ingraham an allstar too.

Now let's get back to normal human logic for a moment and leave your bizzaro takes in a safe place for later. I'd say Ingram's improvement is in line with what he's done year to year so far. And that's without taking into consideration (i know more common sense right?) the fact he played last year as a defacto 1st option and reaped the benefits a few more shot attempts bring to good players as far as a scoring average is concerned.

And of course let's address your real point here: No he's still not better than Scottie Pippen bro.

Never forget, OP is trying to lecture us on a player that he literally didn't even know what his name was

And since Ingram was in middle school when OP stopped watching basketball, he's never even seen him play at any level. Just keep that in mind anytime he makes a thread or posts about Ingraham

Exactly. :applause:

HBK_Kliq_2

12-28-2020, 02:29 PM

I will label him as an empty stats guy until proven otherwise. His advanced stats kind of sucked last year for an "allstar"

2.1 BPM and 11% win share 48

Him being from Duke is also not working for him. When has their ever been an MVP candidate from Duke.

999Guy

12-28-2020, 02:30 PM

I actually believed for 2 seconds this guy made a non-LeBron thread.

Holy shit, he ALMOST said something someone actually wants of hear for once.

trada7029

12-28-2020, 02:34 PM

said something someone actually wants of hear for once.

Indeed, people can't handle the truth and don't want to hear it

ArbitraryWater

12-28-2020, 02:36 PM

lebron played 52 gms with ingram dummie

Thenameless

12-28-2020, 02:36 PM

SouBeachTalents

12-28-2020, 02:38 PM

Indeed, people can't handle the truth and don't want to hear it
Coming from the guy who says LeBron isn't even top 15 and Pippen was a role player :lol You're legitimately one of the most in denial posters on the board

trada7029

12-28-2020, 02:47 PM

Why don't you do everyone a favor instead, explain to us how Ingraham couldn't excel alongside Lebron when he had indeed his best season to that point in his career. Then he followed it up with an allstar appearance and MIP award....AFTER spending a year next to Lebron. MJ made Scottie right? So I'm guessing Lebron made Ingraham an allstar too.

Now let's get back to normal human logic for a moment and leave your bizzaro takes in a safe place for later. I'd say Ingram's improvement is in line with what he's done year to year so far. And that's without taking into consideration (i know more common sense right?) the fact he played last year as a defacto 1st option and reaped the benefits a few more shot attempts bring to good players as far as a scoring average is concerned.

And of course let's address your real point here: No he's still not better than Scottie Pippen bro.

Exactly. :applause:

Ingram regressed under Lebron-ball, across the board:

2018 Ingram.... 13.8 PER... -1.2 BPM... 0.68 WS/48... 0.4 VORP
2019 Ingram.... 13.4 PER... -2.0 BPM... 0.55 WS/48... 0.0 VORP

2020 Ingram.... perennial all-star (going forward)

Again - Ingram couldn't be a playmaking ball-handler because his assists were reduced by lebron and he was used as a "your-turn-my-turn" isolation guy... The "your-turn-my-turn" approach lacked ball movement so Ingram's catch-and-shoot was severely depressed compared to New Orleans

Ingram is a ball-handling playmaker and off-ball shooter, but he couldn't do these things alongside lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance (can't play "shooter" role)..

ShawkFactory

12-28-2020, 02:51 PM

Indeed, people can't handle the truth and don't want to hear it

No.

It’s just like a senile old woman telling people over and over about how she used to get lunch with Woodrow Wilson’s niece and they would discuss what they’d do if they were the first woman president.

Is the story true? Who gives a shit, stop telling us about it. It was barely interesting the first time.

trada7029

12-28-2020, 03:00 PM

RRR3

12-28-2020, 03:01 PM

Ingram regressed under Lebron-ball, across the board:

2018 Ingram.... 13.8 PER... -1.2 BPM... 0.68 WS/48... 0.4 VORP
2019 Ingram.... 13.4 PER... -2.0 BPM... 0.55 WS/48... 0.0 VORP

2020 Ingram.... perennial all-star (going forward)

Again - Ingram couldn't be a playmaking ball-handler because his assists were reduced by lebron and he was used as a "your-turn-my-turn" isolation guy... The "your-turn-my-turn" approach lacked ball movement so Ingram's catch-and-shoot was severely depressed compared to New Orleans

Ingram is a ball-handling playmaker and off-ball shooter, but he couldn't do these things alongside lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance (can't play "shooter" role)..
This guy literally just used the same advanced stats that showed Mo Williams was massively better with LeBron than any other time in his career to make a point against LeBron when he ignored the same stats earlier. No one will take you seriously if you show such a lack of consistency.

trada7029

12-28-2020, 03:01 PM

No.

It’s just like a senile old woman telling people over and over about how she used to get lunch with Woodrow Wilson’s niece and they would discuss what they’d do if they were the first woman president.

Is the story true? Who gives a shit, stop telling us about it. It was barely interesting the first time.

It isn't opinion - it's stats - Ingram regressed alongside Lebron, across the board:

2018 Ingram.... 13.8 PER... -1.2 BPM... 0.68 WS/48... 0.4 VORP
2019 Ingram.... 13.4 PER... -2.0 BPM... 0.55 WS/48... 0.0 VORP

2020 Ingram.... perennial all-star (going forward)

Again - Ingram couldn't be a playmaking ball-handler because his assists were reduced by lebron and he was used as a "your-turn-my-turn" isolation guy... The "your-turn-my-turn" approach lacked ball movement so Ingram's catch-and-shoot was severely depressed compared to New Orleans

Ultimately, Ingram is a ball-handling playmaker and off-ball shooter, but he couldn't do these things alongside lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance (lebron can't play "shooter" role)..

DoctorP

12-28-2020, 03:02 PM

Ingram and Bran were redundant. One had to go...Lakers made the right choice.

trada7029

12-28-2020, 03:11 PM

Ingram and Bran were redundant.

.
Jordan and pippen were "redundant" as combo on-ball and off-ball players.

Ralph Sampson and Hakeem were redundant.. Bird and McHale were kind of redundant

It's a horrible excuse for letting go of a future HOF like Ingram

Ingram and Bran were redundant.

.

Let's assume for a second that this is true

Why were they redundant?

Redundancy = skill deficit

They were only redundant because they lack diverse skillsets (on-ball and off-ball

Otoh, Jordan/Kobe were elite on-ball and off-ball, so they fit with all player types and systems

Guys like Pau were 1x all-stars before Kobe, but all-nba with Kobe.. and bosh was a 6x all-star before lebron, so Kobe won with a Bosh-level player at 2nd option.. kobe/mj needed less help because their more diverse skillsets and shooting fit with a wider range of players/formats

Ingram and Bran were redundant.

.

^^^ that isn't true

Ingram plays off-ball a lot in New Orleans and is an elite shooter - his catch-and-shoot has doubled in New Orleans - that isn't redundant with Lebron

But bron-ball didn't allow the ball movement to get Ingram catch-and-shoot, and ingram wasn't a designated playmaker - he was relegated to an iso player (your-turn-my-turn with Lebron), so no catch-and-shoot and no playmaking

YoungDripKing

12-28-2020, 03:30 PM

I think Ingram is a top 15 player this season overall. Also for everyone arguing LeBron-Ingram. It was slowly working. Lakers had Ingram playing the point a lot (and now hes a pretty great playmaker). Current BI would fit in with LeBron so easily. Ingram cuts and can shoot the 3 at an ELITE clip while also being able to playmake. It worked during their first year despite a lot of growing pains but they were top 4 seeded and beat the Warriors on Christmas. They were looking pretty good until Lonzo had multiple foot injuries, LeBron had his 1st major injury and Ingram stopped playing after Feb because of blood clots. Why do people forget so easily? Its also very strange how LeBron fans despise these guys because LeBron didnt make the playoffs that year. Everyone had injuries? lol... that perplexes me greatly. It is by far the weirdest obsession cult in the NBA.

Brandon Ingram will be an all star, but I don't think he'll ever reach the level of MVP candidate. There are too many elite players ahead of him, both young and old.

Btw he already made allstars just so you know.

trada7029

12-28-2020, 03:34 PM

I think Ingram is a top 15 player this season overall. Also for everyone arguing LeBron-Ingram. It was slowly working. Lakers had Ingram playing the point a lot (and now hes a pretty great playmaker). Current BI would fit in with LeBron so easily. Ingram cuts and can shoot the 3 at an ELITE clip while also being able to playmake. It worked during their first year despite a lot of growing pains but they were top 4 seeded and beat the Warriors on Christmas. They were looking pretty good until Lonzo had multiple foot injuries, LeBron had his 1st major injury and Ingram stopped playing after Feb because of blood clots. Why do people forget so easily?

Btw he already made allstars just so you know.

Ingram regressed alongside Lebron across the board:

2018 Ingram.... 13.8 PER... -1.2 BPM... 0.68 WS/48... 0.4 VORP
2019 Ingram.... 13.4 PER... -2.0 BPM... 0.55 WS/48... 0.0 VORP

2020 Ingram.... perennial all-star going forward

Otoh, there was no season where young Pippen was stalled and got worse from the prior year - ONLY LEBRON caused the stalled/wasted year for Ingram

NBAGOAT

12-28-2020, 03:40 PM

he revamped his jumpshot in NO as did lonzo. they have one of the best shooting coaches in the league and that form wasnt nearly as good with la. I thought he could be a multiple time all star but like a jerry stackhouse type guy. he's clearly better than that and looks like he can get multiple all-nba selections and be a perennial all star it's mainly because of his shooting improvement.

3ball can talk about his "eye test" but ft% is the best indicator of how good someone is at shooting and has nothing to do with teammates. Ingram's last year with LA he shot 67.5% from the line, last year he got to 85.1%. That type of jump isnt normal.

YoungDripKing

12-28-2020, 03:42 PM

Ingram regressed alongside Lebron across the board:

2018 Ingram.... 13.8 PER... -1.2 BPM... 0.68 WS/48... 0.4 VORP
2019 Ingram.... 13.4 PER... -2.0 BPM... 0.55 WS/48... 0.0 VORP

2020 Ingram.... perennial all-star going forward

Otoh, there was no season where young Pippen was stalled and got worse from the prior year - ONLY LEBRON caused the stalled/wasted year for Ingram

Life isn't written in stats. Ingram said it himself that at the beginning of the season, he was thinking too much about how to play properly because of the new team and obviously LeBron. He said once he just let the game come to him, he went off and you can see his numbers in January-February were quite amazing. Thats the glimpse of allstar that Ingram showed.

YoungDripKing

12-28-2020, 03:58 PM

Brandon Ingram is the first Pelicans player with 80 Pts, 20 Reb and 20 Ast through the team’s first 3 games of a season. The only player to do it for any team last season was Luka Doncic.

DoctorP

12-28-2020, 04:06 PM

Jordan and pippen were "redundant" as combo on-ball and off-ball players.

Ralph Sampson and Hakeem were redundant.. Bird and McHale were kind of redundant

It's a horrible excuse for letting go of a future HOF like Ingram

Let's assume for a second that this is true

Why were they redundant?

Redundancy = skill deficit

They were only redundant because they lack diverse skillsets (on-ball and off-ball

Otoh, Jordan/Kobe were elite on-ball and off-ball, so they fit with all player types and systems

Guys like Pau were 1x all-stars before Kobe, but all-nba with Kobe.. and bosh was a 6x all-star before lebron, so Kobe won with a Bosh-level player at 2nd option.. kobe/mj needed less help because their more diverse skillsets and shooting fit with a wider range of players/formats

^^^ that isn't true

Ingram plays off-ball a lot in New Orleans and is an elite shooter - his catch-and-shoot has doubled in New Orleans - that isn't redundant with Lebron

But bron-ball didn't allow the ball movement to get Ingram catch-and-shoot, and ingram wasn't a designated playmaker - he was relegated to an iso player (your-turn-my-turn with Lebron), so no catch-and-shoot and no playmaking

Yep. It's true. If not they would have flourished. The best two players that were redundant with each other were Wade and LeBron. They made it work but it wasn't ideal.

LeBron also plays some off ball btw.

I still think the best big 3 that were complimentary with little redundancy was Boston with Allen, Pierce and Garnett

3ball

12-28-2020, 04:21 PM

Life isn't written in stats. Ingram said it himself that at the beginning of the season, he was thinking too much about how to play properly because of the new team and obviously LeBron. He said once he just let the game come to him, he went off and you can see his numbers in January-February were quite amazing. Thats the glimpse of allstar that Ingram showed.

Ingram never had a year where his production stalled and declined across the board - only with lebron..

And many of his good games occurred when bron was out.. that's when he started taking off

3ball

12-28-2020, 04:24 PM

Yep. It's true. If not they would have flourished. The best two players that were redundant with each other were Wade and LeBron. They made it work but it wasn't ideal.

LeBron also plays some off ball btw.

I still think the best big 3 that were complimentary with little redundancy was Boston with Allen, Pierce and Garnett

Right, so it's a knock on lebron that he lacked the off-ball skill and shooting touch to fit with wade and therefore couldn't be more dominant than 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss (probably the worst any great player would do in that scenario)

SouBeachTalents

12-28-2020, 04:26 PM

3ball can talk about his "eye test" but ft% is the best indicator of how good someone is at shooting and has nothing to do with teammates. Ingram's last year with LA he shot 67.5% from the line, last year he got to 85.1%. That type of jump isnt normal.
Absolutely no response for that :lol

RRR3

12-28-2020, 04:34 PM

Absolutely no response for that :lol
Snivelball :facepalm

What a despicable, pathetic lying coward.

DoctorP

12-28-2020, 04:38 PM

Snivelball :facepalm

What a despicable, pathetic lying coward.

Rrr3 likes to insult people from his moms basement all day. Dude, get a life

:lol

Commie weakling

3ball

12-28-2020, 04:40 PM

Absolutely no response for that :lol

Ingram's production rate stats went down alongside Lebron across the board - PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP

and you counter with FT %?... :whatever:

3ball wins that argument hands down

Ingram's 3-point percentage declined significantly alongside lebron too btw

YoungDripKing

12-28-2020, 07:35 PM

Just announced he is Western Conference player of the week too.

3ball

12-29-2020, 12:23 AM

Ingram had indeed his best season to that point in his career alongside lebron in 2019

Huh?... :kobe:

Ingram regressed alongside Lebron across the board:

2018 Ingram.... 13.8 PER... -1.2 BPM... 0.68 WS/48... 0.4 VORP
2019 Ingram.... 13.4 PER... -2.0 BPM... 0.55 WS/48... 0.0 VORP

2020 Ingram.... perennial all-star going forward

Ingram never had a season of regression until Lebron..

And Pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ.. there was no season where young Pippen was stalled and got worse from the prior year

ONLY LEBRON caused the stalled/wasted year for Ingram

DoctorP

12-29-2020, 12:24 AM

Huh?... :kobe:

Ingram regressed alongside Lebron across the board:

2018 Ingram.... 13.8 PER... -1.2 BPM... 0.68 WS/48... 0.4 VORP
2019 Ingram.... 13.4 PER... -2.0 BPM... 0.55 WS/48... 0.0 VORP

2020 Ingram.... perennial all-star going forward

Ingram never had a season of regression until Lebron..

And pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ.. there was no season where young Pippen was stalled and got worse from the prior year - ONLY LEBRON caused the stalled/wasted year for Ingram

They didn't have pjax or a prime bran to grow with him

3ball

12-29-2020, 12:30 AM

They didn't have pjax or a prime bran to grow with him

Pippen was growing by leaps and bounds before Phil and actually grew less under Phil

Pippen, Grant and BJ saw massive statistical increase while playing with Jordan, whereas virtually no one saw their stats increase while playing alongside lebron

It's crazy how your brains are addicted to the false narratives the media tells you

The media told you that Jordan was just a scorer and lebron makes guys better so you believe it despite no one improving alongside lebron and everyone improving alongside mj

in reality, lebron's skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning)..

GrayGoat

12-29-2020, 12:38 AM

Why couldn’t MJ mold Pippen into a Ingraham?

3ball

12-29-2020, 12:46 AM

Why couldn’t MJ mold Pippen into a Ingraham?

it's a miracle that Jordan improved Pippen to peak Marc Gasol level or maybe a little worse than peak KJ

So there's no way he could've gotten pippen to Ingram's level

you see Ingram - advanced repertoire... silky handle and jumper... sophisticated moves... pippen can't learn that.... Jordan was fortunate pippen learned the basics like tomahawk jam, gather step, and pushing the ball on the break.. whereas the Ingram stuff is next-level - pippen could never do that

DoctorP

12-29-2020, 12:48 AM

Pippen was growing by leaps and bounds before Phil and actually grew less under Phil

Pippen, Grant and BJ saw massive statistical increase while playing with Jordan, whereas virtually no one saw their stats increase while playing alongside lebron

It's crazy how your brains are addicted to the false narratives the media tells you

The media told you that Jordan was just a scorer and lebron makes guys better so you believe it despite no one improving alongside lebron and everyone improving alongside mj

in reality, lebron's skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning)..

Youre insane. Get help.

3ball

12-29-2020, 12:53 AM

Youre insane. Get help.

That's the typical response to my posts when you can't refute them

You said some bullshit.. I corrected you with facts

You're welcome

SouBeachTalents

12-29-2020, 04:02 AM

That's the typical response to my posts when you can't refute them

You said some bullshit.. I corrected you with facts

You're welcome
The fact you can’t comprehend that you’re insane only confirms how insane you are

3ball

12-29-2020, 10:15 AM

The fact you can’t comprehend that you’re insane only confirms how insane you are

Yes I'm crazy man... Crazy 3ball... It's good for me if you think that

Carry on brotha

RRR3

12-29-2020, 10:51 AM

You guys are the uneducated, unsuccessful bums that watch NBA games and ESPN.. so naturally, you're wrong about everything and say dumb things about basketball that I must correct and educate

I could care less about what anyone says about me on this forum because I know what I'm doing.

But carry on.. it's fun being an educator
This dude is saying it’s a bad thing we watch the NBA :biggums:

That means we at least know what we’re talking about you lunatic.

3ball

12-29-2020, 10:54 AM

This dude is saying it’s a bad thing we watch the NBA :biggums:

That means we at least know what we’re talking about you lunatic.

I edited that post

I realize it benefits me if everyone currently thinks what I say is off-the-wall

Indeed, crazy 3ball .. no need to pay attention to what I'm saying

RRR3

12-29-2020, 11:17 AM

Yes I'm crazy man... Crazy 3ball... It's good for me if you think that

Carry on brotha
He’s officially lost it :roll:

LeCuatro got to him :(

8Ball

12-29-2020, 11:22 AM

He has lost his mind since 2013.

It's been 7 years of wandering the Earth blabbering about flat earth related topics.

tpols

12-29-2020, 11:41 AM

To be honest Ingram seems like Pippen but with a higher scoring ceiling. MJ would've toughened him up and had an even easier time.

RRR3

12-29-2020, 12:07 PM

Ttrolls desperately yapping for 3ball’s approval again :lol. What a lapdog :roll:

NBAGOAT

12-29-2020, 12:48 PM

Ingram's production rate stats went down alongside Lebron across the board - PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP

and you counter with FT %?... :whatever:

3ball wins that argument hands down

Ingram's 3-point percentage declined significantly alongside lebron too btw

When you take less than 2 a game, a drop isn’t statistically significant, it could easily just be variance. Again ft shooting is the gold standard for looking at how good a shooter someone for the reasons I listed before and because it has a low variance from year to year. A guy often drops 5% from 3, much less often from the ft line.

What is significant besides the ft% jump is Ingram completely changed his shot selection from taking less than 2 3s a game to 6. He got much better as a shooter and if you’re going continue to argue his improvement in NO was solely from not playing with bron, you’re blind and clueless about statistics

tpols

12-29-2020, 12:51 PM

When you take less than 2 a game, a drop isn’t statistically significant, it could easily just be variance. Again ft shooting is the gold standard for looking at how good a shooter someone for the reasons I listed before and because it has a low variance from year to year. A guy often drops 5% from 3, much less often from the ft line.

What is significant besides the ft% jump is Ingram completely changed his shot selection from taking less than 2 3s a game to 6. He got much better as a shooter and if you’re going continue to argue his improvement in NO was solely from not playing with bron, you’re blind and clueless about statistics

The curious thing is why they couldn't even make an 8 seed... that team had tons of talent, but poor chemistry.

NBAGOAT

12-29-2020, 01:06 PM

The curious thing is why they couldn't even make an 8 seed... that team had tons of talent, but poor chemistry.

You mean pelicans? Bad fitting roster(bad shooting), injuries, gentry is bad at coaching half court offense and zions defense was awful at times.

YoungDripKing

12-29-2020, 01:15 PM

The curious thing is why they couldn't even make an 8 seed... that team had tons of talent, but poor chemistry.

1) Gentry was the worst coach in the league
2) Loads of injuries
3) jrue had an awful start to the season
4) Lot of young guys

HBK_Kliq_2

12-29-2020, 01:17 PM

To be honest Ingram seems like Pippen but with a higher scoring ceiling. MJ would've toughened him up and had an even easier time.

Pippen was actually smart player to a genius level though. Ingram isn't smart, he seems high every time he plays and dumb as rocks hahahah surprising for a duke guy.

Ingram was a -1.3 net rating last season.

Seems to lack impact. Jrue Holiday was on the same team and had a net rating of 0.5. So Ingram was -1.8 below a guy like Jrue and their playing similar minutes. So lets see him surpass Jrue Holiday before we compare him to MVP candidates lol.

tpols

12-29-2020, 01:22 PM

You mean pelicans? Bad fitting roster(bad shooting), injuries, gentry is bad at coaching half court offense and zions defense was awful at times.

I was talking about the 2019 Lakers.

NBAGOAT

12-29-2020, 01:25 PM

I was talking about the 2019 Lakers.

lebron had a down year. lebron and ingram got injured along with some minor injuries. lonzo and ingram werent nearly as good back then at shooting and therefore clearly worse players. Luke's also a coach worse than gentry and one of the worst in the league. took a team with .500 potential in sac and they went ten games under .500.

tpols

12-29-2020, 01:43 PM

lebron had a down year. lebron and ingram got injured along with some minor injuries. lonzo and ingram werent nearly as good back then at shooting and therefore clearly worse players. Luke's also a coach worse than gentry and one of the worst in the league. took a team with .500 potential in sac and they went ten games under .500.

Bro Luke Walton coached the Warriors for the first half of their 73 win season and started 24-0.

He was a big part of coaching the Warriors dynasty. One of the worst in the league?

:biggums:

Yea right... there's not a coach on earth that could ever make the shitty Kings good.

HBK_Kliq_2

12-29-2020, 02:42 PM

The fact that 2020 Brandon Ingraham makes all-star game (or whatever the hell his name is, who cares) but Kawhi in 2015 doesn't make the all-star game despite being like 15x more impactful. The system is a joke sometimes.

NBAGOAT

12-29-2020, 02:42 PM

Bro Luke Walton coached the Warriors for the first half of their 73 win season and started 24-0.

He was a big part of coaching the Warriors dynasty. One of the worst in the league?

:biggums:

Yea right... there's not a coach on earth that could ever make the shitty Kings good.

dave joerger had the kings at over .500 til they traded for barnes. they're a laughable franchise sure but you just werent paying enough attention if you didnt know fox/hield//bagley/bogdanovic/barnes was a super promising core last offseason. They made a bunch of veteran depth moves(joseph, ariza, dedmon) that showed they expected to fight for a playoff spot kind of like atlanta this year to a lesser extent.

I get you're playing the anti lebron card but this is not even the narrative pushed by bron stans, ask kings fans how they feel about walton and check the subreddit. the warriors system was completely set with their talented well fitting roster, that run was fool's gold.

He made some truly perplexing decisions last year like making hield a ball handler and somehow even though he was known for making his teams run, made the Kings a halfcourt team when joerger had them thriving playing in transition(common sentiment with kings fans and also watched a little bit). It just makes sense with fox and shooters to run. The kings did get gentry as an assistant so maybe they run more this year but we'll see. finally he's terrible at building a staff hiring a lot of personal friends but again maybe gentry helps

CTbasketball92

12-29-2020, 02:51 PM

I mean, you're assuming that Ingram was the player he is now back then. He simply was not. He was skinnier and less physically developed than he is now. He was an inconsistent shooter. His handle was iffy.

tpols

12-29-2020, 02:57 PM

YoungDripKing

12-29-2020, 08:13 PM

Just watching his highlights from the other night, Ingram absolutely didn't get better because he bulked up. He's still stick thin.

He looks exactly the same. Just shooting better. Pippen didn't have a jumper like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thPkG_rxc-g

Bruh what are you saying... BI may still seem thin but he attacks the basket against big guys and is able to finish. His first season in LA he was getting bounced around. He may never get big big because thats his body type. He isn't the same physically though, he's a lot stronger than his first couple seasons in L.A. His look does not equate to how strong he is lol.