Only MJ won a bunch of rings with a 2nd option that was far beneath him statistically

[3ball]

aka carry-jobs... statistical proof:


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9.............1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031............ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER...'.. 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2............ 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187.......... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1............ 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER...'.. 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0............ 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136............ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.'... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3............ 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122............ 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1............ 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090............ 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7............ 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095............ 16.4


CONCLUSION - only Jordan had a bunch of carry-job rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

[FireDavidKahn]

GOAT defense isn't reflect in basic box score stats

[8Ball]

Jordan had a team that won 55 games after he left led by big *** Pip.

Kawhi Leonard as well. Team was on 60 win pace in 2020.


CONCLUSION - Jordan was bird fed great teams like AD was bird fed points. :applause:

[trada7029]

It's interesting because AD matched lebron in PER, PPG and WS for the 2020 playoffs

and Kyrie matched lebron's PPG in 2016..

So only mj won a bunch of rings with a sidekick was far lower statistically (PER, BPM, VORP, WS, and PPG), aka carry-jobs

[8Ball]

Talking about PER.

LeBron had higher PER playoff peaks than Jordan.

More 30 point PER playoff runs.

7 vs 3.

LeBron has a higher peak than Jordan.

[3ball]

GOAT defense isn't reflect in basic box score stats


Lebron hasn't been all defense in 8 years and he's barely a top 15 scorer

That's an entirely lower level than scoring champ and top 5 dpoy from 88-98'.... the GOAT level (best scorer and defender)

[8Ball]

Scoring? What?

LeBron surpassed Jordan in scoring ability years ago.

1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 38,387
2 Karl Malone 36,928
3 LeBRON JAMES 34,384
4 Kobe Bryant 33,643

I don't see Jordan anywhere in the top 4? What the hell are you talking bout scoring?

[FireDavidKahn]

Scoring? What?

LeBron surpassed Jordan in scoring ability years ago.

1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 38,387
2 Karl Malone 36,928
3 LeBRON JAMES 34,384
4 Kobe Bryant 33,643

I don't see Jordan anywhere in the top 4? What the hell are you talking bout scoring?

When LeBron retires he will likely be the scoring champ as well as top 5 assists ever

:hammertime::hammertime::hammertime:

[3ball]

Scoring? What?

LeBron surpassed Jordan in scoring ability years ago.

1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 38,387
2 Karl Malone 36,928
3 LeBRON JAMES 34,384
4 Kobe Bryant 33,643

I don't see Jordan anywhere in the top 4? What the hell are you talking bout scoring?


per game

per game capability is what measures scoring ability, otherwise reggie miller is a better scorer than bird

[Gray GOAT]

Only LeBron beat the greatest team of all time with 0 all-stars.

[8Ball]

LeBron > Jordan ALL TIME SCORING

James Harden has a bunch of 35 ppg seasons, nobody cares because he doesn't have a Pippen to elevate him in the playoffs. Harden has 21K all time points, LeBron has 34K. Nobody cares about Harden scoring titles.

1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 38,387
2 Karl Malone 36,928
3 LeBRON JAMES 34,384
4 Kobe Bryant 33,643

Get back to me when Jordan gets into the top 4.

[3ball]

Only LeBron beat the greatest team of all time with 0 all-stars.


No one thinks any team where Curry is the top guy is a goat team

They had a goat regular season run but that doesn't equal goat - they weren't favorites or real champs until KD got there (kyrie wins in 15' if healthy obviously)

Then Lowry got the chip in 19', therefore confirming Curry's weakness

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No way Pippen was ever as bad as Pascal Siakam. Look at Siakam's numbers this season so far:

2% win share per 48
9.8 PER
48% TS

Siakam also walked off the court in game 3 this season and was disciplined for it. So he has the Pippen mannerisms down as well, when Pippen refused to play because Kukoc last shot hahahah

Literally a g leaguer in disguise.

We would never have to worry about this if Kawhi/Durant were smart and teamed up. Instead they picked dumbasses to play with (Irving, PG). So now LeBron still has the best co star.

[8Ball]

Scoring titles are near meaningless achievement.

Scoring title winners:

2000-01 Allen Iverson
2001–02 Allen Iverson
2002–03 Tracy McGrady
2003–04 Tracy McGrady
2004–05 Allen Iverson
2005–06 Kobe Bryant
2006–07 Kobe Bryant
2007–08 LeBron James
2008–09 Dwyane Wade
2009–10 Kevin Durant
2010–11 Kevin Durant
2011–12 Kevin Durant
2012–13 Carmelo Anthony
2013–14 Kevin Durant
2014–15 Russell Westbrook
2015–16 Stephen Curry
2016–17 Russell Westbrook
2017–18 James Harden
2018–19 James Harden
2019–20 James Harden

ZERO CHAMPIONSHIPS for scoring title leaders those years they won.

Meaningless achievement.

Ball hogging chucking.

Stat padding


LeBron did it once and realized how stupid it was, and never did it again. Last 20 years, leading scorer has never won a championship in the year they won scoring title.

[2ball]

No Pip no chip. Only MJ in the consensus goat top 3 was shackled to one player.

[Round Mound]

These where his stats without MJ:

Pippen when Jordan left:

Raw Stats;

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG and 0.8 BPG!

55 Wins (2 Less Than With MJ The Year Prior!)

Advanced Stats and Metrics

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
*1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
*1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)
Career 125.1 (45th)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1990-91 NBA .179 (15th)
1991-92 NBA .192 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA .194 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA .188 (10th)
1995-96 NBA .209 (9th)
1996-97 NBA .203 (9th)
1997-98 NBA .193 (8th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
*1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)
Career 63.2 (24th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th)
Career NBA 1.8 (34th)
Career 1.8 (37th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
*1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
Career NBA 2.3 (89th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
*1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
*1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (35th)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
*1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7 (10th)
1997-98 NBA 98.8 (12th)
Career NBA 101.5 (67th)
Career 101.5 (81st)


*Notice The Year 1993-94 and some games of the next season STATS WITHOUT MJ!

[Gray GOAT]

No one thinks any team where Curry is the top guy is a goat team

They had a goat regular season run but that doesn't equal goat - they weren't favorites or real champs until KD got there (kyrie wins in 15' if healthy obviously)

Then Lowry got the chip in 19', therefore confirming Curry's weakness

2016 is regarded as the greatest championship in the history of sports. I know it stings, but it is the truth.

[Shooter]

Jordan had a team that won 55 games after he left led by big *** Pip.

Kawhi Leonard as well. Team was on 60 win pace in 2020.


CONCLUSION - Jordan was bird fed great teams like AD was bird fed points. :applause:

And that's the end of that

NEXT THREAD :lol

[2ball]

Thread Cliffs:

No Pip no chip

[Kings2024Champs]

Listen handlez park legend.. you cant post from multiple accounts on the same thread. Makes the arguement look weak. Now back to what you said, jordan played forklift drivers

[Gus Hemmingway]

LeBron got more points, rebounds, and assists than all his 2nd options


Jordan only got more points, Pippen outrebounded and out assisted Jordan


So LeBron outproduced his 2nd options by a greater degree

[dankok8]

Pippen won 55 games with BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant in 93-94.
Lebron won 51 games with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love in 16-17.

Pippen > Lebron? :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Pippen won 55 games with BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant in 93-94.
Lebron won 51 games with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love in 16-17.

Pippen > Lebron? :confusedshrug:
LeBron won 66 games with Mo Williams and a washed up Zydrunas Ilgauskas :roll:

[TheCorporation]

LeBron got more points, rebounds, and assists than all his 2nd options


Jordan only got more points, Pippen outrebounded and out assisted Jordan


So LeBron outproduced his 2nd options by a greater degree

Bingo

:hammertime:

[SATAN]

Jordan had a team that won 55 games after he left led by big *** Pip.




Yep, give the Bulls Blue Edwards or Doug West instead of Pete Myers and they would have won a chip without MJ.

[And1AllDay]

LeBron got more points, rebounds, and assists than all his 2nd options


Jordan only got more points, Pippen outrebounded and out assisted Jordan


So LeBron outproduced his 2nd options by a greater degree

rip op

/thread over

[SouBeachTalents]

A new year, another hundred LeBron & Pippen threads :(

[3ball]

These where his stats without MJ:

Pippen when Jordan left:

Raw Stats;

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG and 0.8 BPG!

55 Wins (2 Less Than With MJ The Year Prior!)

Advanced Stats and Metrics

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
*1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
*1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)
Career 125.1 (45th)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1990-91 NBA .179 (15th)
1991-92 NBA .192 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA .194 (9th)
*1994-95 NBA .188 (10th)
1995-96 NBA .209 (9th)
1996-97 NBA .203 (9th)
1997-98 NBA .193 (8th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
*1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)
Career 63.2 (24th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
*1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th)
Career NBA 1.8 (34th)
Career 1.8 (37th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
*1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)
*1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
Career NBA 2.3 (89th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
*1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
*1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (35th)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
*1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
*1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7 (10th)
1997-98 NBA 98.8 (12th)
Career NBA 101.5 (67th)
Career 101.5 (81st)


*Notice The Year 1993-94 and some games of the next season STATS WITHOUT MJ!




^^^ those are pippen's peak stats, which aren't anywhere near a top 10 peak in the 90's - those stats are Marc Gasol peak level, or below KJ's peak.

so you're a fool for thinking pippen's peak is anywhere NEAR a top 10 peak in the 90's - it isn't, so you're confirmed as wrong






These where his stats without MJ:

Pippen when Jordan left:





Prime Pippen............ 19/7 on 45%

JR Smith 15' ECF...... 18/8 on 50%

R Horry 94' Finals.... 18/10 on 50%

L Hughes 05' RS...... 22/6 on 45%


Prime Wade/AD/Kyrie are untouchable by regular players, whereas pippen's pedestrian stats were routinely matched by bums like Horry (94' Finals), JR Smith (15' ECF), or Hughes (05')...

That's the caliber of sidekick production that mj won 6 rings with (peak horry or JR) - the stats don't lie

[3ball]

LeBron won 66 games with Mo Williams and a washed up Zydrunas Ilgauskas :roll:


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage..... #3 team defense
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage... #19 team defense




LeBron won 66 games with Mo Williams and a washed up Zydrunas Ilgauskas :roll:


Lebron led the Cavs to 45 wins in 2008 - so they were a horrible team until Mo's "curry effect" made them title contenders in 09'.

45 wins before Mo... 66 wins after... That's the historical record

the Mo/Pippen stats above demonstrate Mo's superior impact across the board... the Cavs already had the #3 defense, but Mo turned them from an average offense into a top 4 offense and the league favorite

09' Mo > 90' Pippen
05' Zydrunas > 90' Pippen
05' Hughes > 90' Pippen
10' Jamison > 90' Pippen

[light]

One could say that only Pippen has won a bunch of rings despite having a ball hog for a teammate.

The only player in history that has won 4+ rings while doing both Jordan's job and Pippen's job at the same time is LeBron James.

[Baller789]

One could say that only Pippen has won a bunch of rings despite having a ball hog for a teammate.

The only player in history that has won 4+ rings while doing both Jordan's job and Pippen's job at the same time is LeBron James.

So you are saying Lebron played lockdown D the whole Finals?

[Axe]

Displacement is inevitable

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQB_T2Iyb6wWAActdYpW4I5VSwaMEZLw RH6sA&usqp=CAU

[TheGoatest]

https://images2.imagebam.com/2b/80/cd/30df811365045581.png

[Baller789]

Displacement is inevitable

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQB_T2Iyb6wWAActdYpW4I5VSwaMEZLw RH6sA&usqp=CAU

I have no problem with this.
It's based on the twitter generation it seems.

[Axe]

I have no problem with this.
It's based on the twitter generation it seems.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTjW5UcNwnwf8e4Cr28L08Ufbr-b8KuTxHwYw&usqp=CAU

[Baller789]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTjW5UcNwnwf8e4Cr28L08Ufbr-b8KuTxHwYw&usqp=CAU

https://i.ibb.co/f988NwQ/980214360314099988f2c289bfa6e788.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

[Shooter]

LeBron got more points, rebounds, and assists than all his 2nd options


Jordan only got more points, Pippen outrebounded and out assisted Jordan


So LeBron outproduced his 2nd options by a greater degree


OP?

Shook?