If Lebron is a "genius" basketball player, why no #1 offenses in 18 years?

[3ball]

I'm having trouble squaring this circle

* Why no #1 offenses?

* Why low assist teams?

* Why a lottery record vs organic ball movement (Spurs, Mavs, Warriors)?


Why would lebron start at SF, but then become a 2nd point guard on the floor?... Doesn't he know that 2-PG lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than 1 PG lineups, thereby yielding less team assists and a low ball movement brand that struggles on the championship level?

[DoctorP]

The pg is then a spot up 3 point trigger

Super pippen role

[Vino24]

Because LeBron is too busy beating #1 offenses in the playoffs

[light]

I'm having trouble squaring this circle

* Why no #1 offenses?

* Why low assist teams?

* Why a lottery record vs organic ball movement (Spurs, Mavs, Warriors)?


Why would lebron start at SF, but then become a 2nd point guard on the floor?... Doesn't he know that 2-PG lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than 1 PG lineups, thereby yielding less team assists and a low ball movement brand that struggles on the championship level?

Because rankings are not the goal, my man.

[1987_Lakers]

He had the #4 offense with Mo Williams as his sidekick.

MJ never had a top 4 offense up until 1991 when Pippen led the Bulls in assists.

[3ball]

The pg is then a spot up 3 point trigger

Super pippen role

teammates have less hold-time and assists in 2-PG lineups than 1 PG lineups, so the TEAM has lower assists - and these low assist teams have a lottery record against organic ball movement on the championship level (Spurs, Mavs, Warriors).

It's a dumb way to play that's easy to beat

[Vino24]

teammates have less hold-time and assists in 2-PG lineups than 1 PG lineups, so the TEAM has lower assists - and these low assist teams have a lottery record against organic ball movement on the championship level (Spurs, Mavs, Warriors).

It's a dumb way to play that's easy to beat

Why couldn’t MJ win a ring in year 17? Oh wait..

[3ball]

He had the #4 offense with Mo Williams as his sidekick.

MJ never had a top 4 offense up until 1991 when Pippen led the Bulls in assists.


1990 BULLS.... 112.3 ortg... 5.2 above league average
2009 CAVS...... 112.4 ortg... 5.1 above league average


^^^ Jordan's team offense was better despite less offensive help - 90' Pippen had lower stats across the board than 09' Mo (PER, BPM, VORP, WS, PPG, efficiency)


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage.. #19 team defense


^^^ So MJ achieved a top 5 offense with less offensive help

Don't be surprised.. that's how weak pippen was offensively (below Mo Williams level)

[RRR3]

OP is 5’3 and told us he was 6’7.

[Wally450]

Because he wins rings.

[3ball]

.
2010 WADE.... 28 PER... 9.2 BPM
2010 KOBE..... 21 PER... 4.4 BPM



Because he wins rings.


Lebron mostly lost (4/10) despite teaming up with someone better than Kobe (Wade), or someone that destroys Curry (Kyrie), or the playoff scoring champ and modern Kareem (AD)

So Lebron never developed or learned a genius offense - he simply teamed up with great talent (talent-based winning)..

And it's a skill deficit.. His lack of shooting touch and off-ball assisted skillset makes him a ball-dominator.. This ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. Talent-based winning has a lottery record against organic ball movement (Spurs, Mavs, Warriors)

Ultimately, Lebron went 2/4 with Kobe-Pau II... 1/4 with Kyrie... lottery with Ingram.... statistical "pippen" to AD.... aka NOT the best we've ever seen (NOT goat)

[coin24]

Because he wins rings.

40% of the time

[RRR3]

Weiner uncle soytits diaper virgins
:facepalm

[Airupthere]

Because he wins rings.

The genius is in the recruitment/collusion skills. He has 1 legit ring out of 4 out of 10 attempts.

[8Ball]

LeBron not spoon fed great teams like Jordan was bird fed great players.

Jordan 1 and 9 without pippen

Pippen won 55 games and 59 wins without Jordan.

Jordan cant win without pippen.

[SouBeachTalents]

OP is a tortured soul, going on 7 years of this routine, and it's only gotten worse. It seems like he'll never find peace :(

[8Ball]

OP is a tortured soul, going on 7 years of this routine, and it's only gotten worse. It seems like he'll never find peace :(

Why give him peace?

Let him wallow in his own shit. We broke him good.

1-9 without Pippen.

55 wins.

[3ball]

1990 BULLS.... 112.3 ortg... 5.2 above league average
2009 CAVS...... 112.4 ortg... 5.1 above league average


^^^ Jordan's team offense was better despite less offensive help - 90' Pippen had lower stats across the board than 09' Mo (PER, BPM, VORP, WS, PPG, efficiency)


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage.. #19 team defense


^^^ So MJ achieved a top 5 offense with less offensive help

Don't be surprised.. that's how weak pippen was offensively (below Mo Williams level)





1987_Lakers you ran like a bitch

you ran because the post above statistically proves that jordan had better team offenses with less help (jordan's skillset yielded better basketball)

[Axe]

Op is like a magatard; simply delusional.

[3ball]

.
2010 Wade.... 28 PER... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe..... 21 PER... 4.4 BPM

pre-lebron Bosh.... 6x all-star.. 1x all-nba
pre-kobe Pau........ 1x all-star.. no all-nba




Op is like a magatard; simply delusional.


It isn't delusion that Lebron went 2/4 with Kobe-Pau II... 1/4 with Kyrie... lottery with Ingram.... statistical "pippen" to AD.... therefore NOT the best we've ever seen (not goat)

It isn't delusion that the 90' Bulls had a better team offense than the 09' Cavs (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489124-If-Lebron-is-a-quot-genius-quot-basketball-player-why-no-1-offenses-in-18-years&p=14220376&viewfull=1#post14220376) despite Pippen being worse than 09' Mo across the board (BPM, PER, VORP, WS, PPG, efficiency)

It isn't delusion that lebron lacks elite shooting touch or significant off-ball skillset, which makes him a ball-dominator like cp3 or wall.. the only reason lebron's suboptimal ball-dominance won and cp3 didn't is that lebron team-hopped for a 3rd star (extra talent needed to offset the suboptimal brand)

ultimately, lebron's ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. his talent-based approach loses to organic ball movement, so he has a lottery record against Spurs, Mavs, Warriors.

Oh, and it isn't delusion that lebron historically started at SF, but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor... 2-PG lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than 1 PG lineups, thereby yielding less team assists and a low ball movement brand that struggles on the championship level.. these are mathematical facts

[Axe]

Why didn't you use the edit button instead? It exists for your own sake. ;)

[sdot_thadon]

If it isn't delusion, it most definitely is illness.

[3ball]

If it isn't delusion, it most definitely is illness.


It's delusion and illness to think that:



* 2/4 with Kobe-Pau II

* 1/4 with Kyrie

* lottery with Ingram

* statistical "pippen" to AD

* zero #1 offenses in 2 decades


is the best we've ever seen

[1987_Lakers]

1987_Lakers you ran like a bitch

you ran because the post above statistically proves that jordan had better team offenses with less help (jordan's skillset yielded better basketball)

1990 Playoffs | Bulls: 109.9 ORTG only +0.5 above league average
2009 Playoffs | Cavs: 112.6 ORTG: +4.9 above league average

'90 Pippen in playoffs: 19/7/6 on 50 fg%
'09 Mo Williams in playoffs: 16/3/4 on on 41 fg%

So MJ had a better offensive sidekick in the playoffs, a more offensive minded coach in Phil Jackson, but still had a weaker offense than LeBron. Sorry, you lose.

[3ball]

1990 Playoffs | Bulls: 109.9 ORTG only +0.5 above league average
2009 Playoffs | Cavs: 112.6 ORTG: +4.9 above league average

'90 Pippen in playoffs: 19/7/6 on 50 fg%
'09 Mo Williams in playoffs: 16/3/4 on on 41 fg%

So MJ had a better offensive sidekick in the playoffs, a more offensive minded coach in Phil Jackson, but still had a weaker offense than LeBron. Sorry, you lose.


Playoff ortg's are irrelevant because it's dependant on comp, whereas regular season ortg's are valid because everyone plays the same comp.. there's all kinds of wild swings and examples in the playoffs

And pippen averaged 16 on 42% in the 90' ECF compared to 18 on 38% for Mo, and Mo had the far better team defense

Furthermore, let's look at 1989:

2009 Cavs..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
1989 Bulls... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... beat #1 SRS Cavs (3 all-stars)


^^^ 89' bulls beat a better team with worse help on both sides of the ball than 09' cavs, and 90' bulls had less help but nearly beat Pistons..

btw, the 89' Cavs (#1 SRS and 3 all-stars plus 20/5/5 Ron harper) > any team lebron beat in the East

[1987_Lakers]

Playoff ortg's are irrelevant because it's dependant on comp, whereas regular season ortg's are valid because everyone plays the same comp.. there's all kinds of wild swings and examples in the playoffs

Bulls played the #14 & #16 defense in the playoffs in 1990 before they met Detroit. (27 teams in 1990 for context)

Cavs played the #16 & #12 defense in 2009 before they met the #1 defensive team in Orlando. (30 teams in 2009)

Looks to me like they played similar defensive teams in the postseason with the Cavs playing slightly better defensive teams, Cavs still had more success on the offensive end with LeBron & bums while MJ had a 19 ppg Pippen.

You lose.

[dawsey6]

idk...

You should maybe ask his coaches. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Bulls played the #14 & #16 defense in the playoffs in 1990 before they met Detroit. (27 teams in 1990 for context)

Cavs played the #16 & #12 defense in 2009 before they met the #1 defensive team in Orlando. (30 teams in 2009)

Looks to me like they played similar defensive teams in the postseason with the Cavs playing slightly better defensive teams, Cavs still had more success on the offensive end with LeBron & bums while MJ had a 19 ppg Pippen.

You lose.


90' pippen had lower PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48 than 09' Mo - therefore Mo was superior and turned a 45-win loser into the league favorite and 66 wins.

Furthermore, pippen averaged 16 on 42% in the 90' ECF compared to 18 on 38% for Mo, and Mo had the far better team defense

Now let's look at 1989:

2009 Cavs..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
1989 Bulls... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... beat #1 SRS Cavs (3 all-stars)


^^^ 89' bulls beat a better team with worse help on both sides of the ball than the 09' cavs, and the 90' bulls had less help too but nearly beat Pistons..

btw, the 89' Cavs > any team lebron beat in the East (#1 SRS and 3 all-stars plus 20/5/5 Ron harper)

[FireDavidKahn]

Because he doesn't have good teams around him.

[3ball]

Because he doesn't have good teams around him.


lebron had vastly inferior offenses despite 4 teammates with higher production rate than pippen across the board - Wade, AD, Kyrie, and Love have higher PER, WS/48, and BPM than Pippen.

edit: love has slightly lower BPM but much higher offensive BPM (OBPM)

Furthermore, 09' Mo had higher BPM, PER, VORP, and WS/48 than 90' Pippen, yet the bulls had a better margin above league average ortg than the cavs

[SATAN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWq-WsNxqDE