Rethinking Wilt's Impact

[dankok8]

In recent days and even last few years really I've collected a lot of Wilt footage available on YT and crunched a lot of numbers. Recently a lot more has been made available by coastalmarker, 70's fan on YT and of course the owner of Wilt Chamberlain Archive ISH's own CavsFTW who hasn't been active on here in a while. Also watched a lot of Thinking Basketball and some other great analysis by people I respect a lot.

I've become to realize that because of his 50 ppg season and his 100 point game people are looking at Wilt all wrong. People often look at him as an offensive juggernaut with good defense but instead he should be looked at as a defensive juggernaut with good offense.

Why do I say that?

Every time Wilt joined a team they improved defensively by a considerable margin and not that much offensively. And when he left teams they regressed defensively and didn't lose much offensively. It's well know that Wilt's teams did much better when he scored less and passed the ball more. In terms of passing ability from what is available on film, Wilt mostly made basic assists when he was double teamed. He didn't demonstrate some unbelievable vision. For instance he was nowhere near Jokic as a passer from what I've seen. Wilt as a volume scorer was fairly efficient in general but not against Russell in the playoffs. In an 8-team NBA, he would face Russell in almost every title run so this one match-up is way more significant than any single matchup in the modern NBA. Against the Celtics, Wilt's Sixers often did well when he shot less and focused on the defensive side of the floor. When he tried to score a lot he rarely ever did so efficiently. And when a guy rarely moves team offenses even at full capacity shaving off a few PPG and efficiency points made his offensive impact close to nothing. Wilt was no Kareem or Shaq on offense and that's clear from video, stats and impact number. IMO he isn't even close. I would also rank Hakeem ahead of Wilt as an offensive player considering how inelastic his scoring is, in other words Hakeem was able to score efficiently even against the best defenders often times. Wilt's coaches generally misused him and it was Alex Hannum and later Bill Sharman who realized that Wilt's real value lay on the defensive end and they tried to reduce his offensive load to focus on defense.

Being second to Russell has also clouded people's judgment regarding his defense into thinking that he wasn't THAT GOOD on defense failing to realize that Russell is far and away the defensive GOAT. Russell anchored so many defenses -7 or more points below league average in DRtg and his teams fell of the cliff when he missed games or retired. He has untouchable defensive impact. Wilt had a pretty monstrous impact on defense himself not compared to Russell but compared to most other big men who ever played the game. Now admittedly a lot of that is the era. With no 3pt line and most shots taken within 15 feet of the basket of course a big that can block 10 shots and change 20 more with his help defense is gonna have ridiculous impact. Still I can easily see a case for Wilt as the 2nd best defensive center ever even with the time machine argument.

All in all based on stats, impact but primarily the increasing amount of film I've watched I mostly see Wilt as a David Robinson type player but with even better motor ala Moses Malone which helped him on the glass. Dude could crush teams on the offensive glass (his best offensive attribute IMO), had a decent fadeaway and could absolutely power up under the rim although not nearly to the extent Shaq could because Wilt had thinner legs and a higher center of mass. He had a soft touch with his turnarounds but he wasn't effective outside of 10 feet. He could make basic passes but was nothing special there and turned it over regularly passing through traffic. Also being a major liability on the free throw line limited his usefulness as a go-to guy offensively in close games. It's on the defensive end that he was a real monster though. He was agile with fantastic recoveries around his peak year 1967 and of course a ridiculous shotblocker with his reach and vertical.

Here are some Wilt defensive videos for those who may not have seen much. If you watch the games that are available you can see more in context but this demonstrates his abilities pretty well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo-d57TJy2g


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo




TL;DR version:

Wilt was a monstrous defensive player with just good offense. Maybe top 3 defensive player ever but not even top 10 offensively.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I agree. Wilt's offense stats from reg season to playoffs took a more dramatic decline then James Harden.

His defensive days in the early 1970s was what I was most impressed with.

[Axe]

Good to know he has more impact than kawhit

[ArbitraryWater]

I haven't looked at the footage you have, but it sounds pretty absurd to say someone dropping a 100 pt game, like double digit 60 pt games, averaging FIFTY a SEASON, isnt top 10 offensively...

oh btw also led the league in assists when he decided to.

His postseason meltdowns however are what they are. Inexcusable.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Good to know he has more impact than kawhit

He's not better then Kawhi because kawhi actually increases his performance in playoffs, not decrease his performance.

Kawhi is also a good guy and a leader. Wilt is a piece of trash and a deadbeat dad.

[Axe]

He's not better then Kawhi because kawhi actually increases his performance in playoffs, not decrease his performance.

Kawhi is also a good guy and a leader. Wilt is a piece of trash and a deadbeat dad.
Sure, with the help of load management in the rs that is. :rolleyes::oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Interesting analysis. I'm interested in what coastal has to say as he offers some great insight into the career of Wilt.

[coastalmarker99]

Interesting analysis. I'm interested in what coastal has to say as he offers some great insight into the career of Wilt.

Wilt averaged 32 points per game in the playoffs through his first seven years while being double and triple-teamed and not being allowed to use any physically in the post as someone like Shaq did or Lebron.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XTPVBOCLw&t=89s


Wilt played 29 postseason series, the majority of them played from 1966-73, and Wilt's teams went 18-11 in them. Anyone wondering about Wilt's drop-off in career average points from the regular season to the playoffs (30.1 to 22.5) should know that When Wilt was the main shot taker on his team he put up 39.6 season PPG and 32.9 playoff PPG. in his first seven years.

In 18 series Wilt's teams won because 13 of them was where Wilt scored less than his regular-season average. Wilt's lowest scoring average in a postseason series came against the Warriors in 1973 where he only averaged 7.0 points, but then he also pulled down 23.6 rebounds (way above this season rebounding average of 18.6), outrebounded Nate Thurmond (who came in second to Wilt in rebounding that year) and defensively held him to .37.3 shooting (when Nate shot .44.6 against the rest of the league) and Wilt blocked at least 45 shots in that 5-game romp over Golden State, the team that eliminated Kareem's 60-win Bucks in the previous round that year. Wilt averaged more playing time in his last NBA postseason than he did during his rookie season.

As a Laker, Wilt only averaged 15.8 points on .53.1 fg% in the playoffs. But in the games where LA faced elimination Wilt upped his averages to 25.4 points on .60.2 fg%. Even in his post knee injury years, when he was asked to score more for his team he would do it. When he was not scoring he'd move his focus to another part of his game that he excelled in. His role and statistics were always fluctuating and every version of Wilt was molded by his coaches.

Wilt is the only player to have multiple seasons of leading the league in multiple categories at the same time. One year he lead the league in Rebounds, assists, probably blocks, and FG% while still being a top 5 scorer. He had other years of leading the league in points, rebounds, FG% and probably blocks.

Some people will try to minimize Wilt by bashing his era. Well Wilt faced guys like Russell, Kareem, and Thurmond multiple times. Plus if his era was so weak why is he the only one who produced the outlandish numbers he did? Sure Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double, but no one came close to the absurd point marks Wilt had. The year he averaged 50 the #2 ppg was 15 less than his. No one crushed their era on an individual level like Wilt.

The one OVERLOOKED stat w/ wilt, BLOCKS... I know, they didnt count them officially then. However, philly did. Go do your homework, they actually filed it. w/ philly he had 8.8 blocks a game!. THINK about that for a sec. It means he had many games w/ over 10 blocks. In other words, he probably ends up w/ the triple double record. And heres the freak stat perhaps of all time, he wouldve ended up w/ 30-40 Quad doubles & probably had 3-5 Quin doubles considering he also led the league in assists in 1968.Wilt would also have the highest per and game score games if all stats were recorded during his era.

During Wilt's last 7 seasons after his scoring seasons, he would lead all players in playoff defensive win shares 5 out of 7 times during his non-scoring title seasons

And if blocks were tracked for Wilt he would also more then likely have the most blocks ever in the playoffs and triple-doubles In 81 known playoff games of recorded block shots. Wilt blocked a total of 590 shots, as a result, Wilt averaged 7.3 blocks per game in the playoffs. Tim Duncan has the most at 568 blocks and he played 251 playoffs games to Wilt's 160 and Wilt in less than 170 games at 81 games has more blocks then Tim Duncan. it's possible that Wilt might have got 1000 blocks in the playoffs which is just ridiculous to think about. Chamberlain blocked about 7-8 bpg in his '72 season (in the known games, which were around 60 I believe.) And, in something like the known 50 games of Wilt's LAST season, in '73, Wilt was around 6 bpg.

[coastalmarker99]

I haven't looked at the footage you have, but it sounds pretty absurd to say someone dropping a 100 pt game, like double digit 60 pt games, averaging FIFTY a SEASON, isnt top 10 offensively...

oh btw also led the league in assists when he decided to.

His postseason meltdowns however are what they are. Inexcusable.

Three times between 1959-66 Wilt led a team that won only 30-something games the previous year to at least the conference finals only to lose the series clincher by single digits (1960, 1964, 1965). From 1959-66 his teams faced playoff elimination 12 times where Wilt averaged 37.3 points, 27.6 rebounds, and .52.1 fg%, winning six of them. Three of those six wins came with Wilt scoring 50+ points. He is the only player in history to score 50+ when facing playoff elimination, only player to do so multiple games while winning every game, and only player to do so in a conference finals. Wilt holds the top 3 single-season rebound averages (1961, 1960, 1962), holds the highest rebound average for a single playoffs (1966) and only player to average at least 30 rebounds in a postseason.

He is also the only player to average at least 30/20/.500 for a single postseason (1964) and is the only player to average 30/30/.500 for a playoff series (1965).

In elimination games, from 1960-66, Wilt averaged 40ppg in 12 games. He had 3 of his 4 50+ point games were in those elimination games all wins that's not a choker. Also in his NINE game seven's in his post-season career, Chamberlain averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shot .62.6... which is not only the highest FG% ever in game seven's by an all-time "great"...it was achieved in league's that shot about .43.5 on average




In elimination games, from 1967-73, Wilt averaged 23ppg in 12 games (different roles). despite he wasn't the main scoring option anymore (he was defensive-minded Wilt at this time), but still was able to pull out a 45/27 game, 30/27/11 blocks (reported), etc...

You round his scoring average to 31.5ppg in 24 elimination games, with him having a rebounding average of 20+, high fg%, high blocks, and his enigma of low ft% for his total career.

[coastalmarker99]

He's not better then Kawhi because kawhi actually increases his performance in playoffs, not decrease his performance.

Kawhi is also a good guy and a leader. Wilt is a piece of trash and a deadbeat dad.

I have posted these numbers before, but they do provide a better perspective on those that claim that Wilt "shrank" in the post-season.

Here are Chamberlain's post-season numbers:

Thru Chamberlain's "scoring" seasons, 1959-60 thru 1965-66, Wilt averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 3.2 APG, and on a .50.5 FG%, in league's that averaged .42.6 shooting in that span...or WAY over the league average. And, keep in mind that Wilt's roster was so horrible in his 62-63 season, that his team failed to make the playoffs...in a year in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting.

32.8 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 3.2 APG, .505 (in league's that shot .42.6)

Thru Wilt's absolute prime, 1959-60 to 1966-67, when Chamberlain led the Sixers to a 68-13 record, and a world title.

30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 APG, .51.5 FG% (in league's that shot .42.8 in that span)

Thru Wilt's 11th season, and in the year in which he was injured...

25.8 ppg, 25.6 rpg, 4.4 APG, .52.4 FG% ( in league's that shot .43.3 over that span.)

Think about that...in Wilt's first 11 seasons, covering 10 post-seasons, he averaged a 26-26-4 .52.0 (in league's that shot .43.0)

And once again, in his NINE game seven's in his post-season career, Chamberlain averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shot .62.6... which is not only the highest FG% ever in game seven's by an all-time "great"...it was achieved in league's that shot about .43.5 on average.

And, in his SIX Finals, covering 35 games, Chamberlain shot a combined .56.0.

Furthermore, Wilt had entire post-seasons in which he averaged 28 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and even 37.0 ppg.

He had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and another at 38.6 ppg. He also had FOUR post-seasons, against RUSSELL, in which hee averaged 30+ ppg, including one seven-game series in which he averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg against him (and another one in which he averaged 28 ppg and 30 rpg against him.)

He had FOUR post-season games of 50+ points, which is second all-time, to MJ's eight. He had a 56-35 game in a game five of a best-of-five series, as well as a 50-35 game against Russell, in a "must-win" situation. BTW, he had a total of FOUR 40-30 games, just against Russell in the post-season.

He had the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .62.5 seven-game series in the '70 Finals.) He also had a 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, .60.0 Finals in '72.

He had an entire post-season of 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 APG, and .579 shooting (in a league that shot .44.1) covering 15 games. And in two of those three playoff series that year, he averaged a TRIPLE DOUBLE. One of them was against Russell (21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 APG, and on .55.6 shooting), and the other was a 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 APG and on .61.2 shooting against the Royals. Then, in the Finals, he outscored Thurmond, outrebounded Nate, and outshot Thurmond by a staggering .56.0 to .34.3 margin.

Chamberlain played in 13 post-seasons, in his 14 season career. His LOW rebound per game post-season, was 20.2 rpg. He also had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7+ rpg, with highs of 29.1 rpg, and 30.2 rpg. He was also NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 post-season series.

And, how about this...(thanks to PHILA for much of it BTW)...

Quote: 1960 Game 3 vs. Nationals (best of 3 series at the time): 53 points in a 20 point win.

1962 Game 5 vs. Nationals: 56 points, 35 rebounds 12 blocks in a 17 point win.

1962 Game 6 vs Celtics: 32 points in a 10 point win

1962 Game 7 vs Celtics: 22 points, 21 rebounds in a 2 point loss

1964 Game 5 vs. Hawks: 50 points in a 24 point win.

1964 Game 7 vs. Hawks: 39 points, 26 rebounds, 12 blocks in a 10 point win.

1965 Game 6 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 26 rebounds in a 6 point win

1965 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 32 rebounds 7 blocks in a 1 point loss

1966 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 46 points, 34 rebounds 6 blocks in an 8 point loss

1967 Game 2 vs. Royals: 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists in a 21 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Royals: 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 1 vs. Celtics: 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists, 12 blocks in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Celtics: 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists 11 blocks in an 11 point win.

1967 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists plus 15 blocked shots in a 24 point win.

1968 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 27 rebounds in an 18 point win. A little known fact is that Chamberlain led BOTH TEAMS in points, rebounds, and assists for the entire series, whilst nursing an assortment of injuries, including his annual shin splints. This against two Hall Of Fame centers Walt Bellamy & Willis Reed. Apparently, Willis used to tremble at the mere sight of Luke Jackson in the MSG tunnel pre-game.

1968 Game 7 vs Celtics: 14 points, 34 rebounds plus 11 blocks in a 4 point loss (This despite two touches in the entire 4th quarter, the smartest move Russell has ever made in his career switching himself over to guard Chet).

1969 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 18 points, 27 rebounds 12 blocks in a 2 point loss (Head coach leaves him on the bench due to a personal grudge.)

1970 Game 5 vs. Suns: 36 points, 14 rebounds in a 17 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Suns: 30 points, 27 rebounds, 11 blocks in a 35 point win (helped lead Lakers back from 1-3 deficit)

1970 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 45 points, 27 rebounds in a 22 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Knicks: 21 points, 24 rebounds in a 14 point loss

(Understand that he should have not even been playing in the 1969-70 season after his injury, but was able to rehab his knee in time with his workouts in volleyball, a sport he would later become a Hall Of Famer in as well.)

1971 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 25 points, 18 rebounds 8 blocks in an 11 point win

1971 Game 5 vs. Bucks: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 6 blocks in an 18 point loss without Elgin Baylor or Jerry West. (Alcindor in this game had 20 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks).

1973 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 21 points, 28 rebounds in a 3 point win (Bulls had the ball and a one-point lead with 30 or so seconds left in the 4th. Norm Van Lier goes up for the shot only to have it rejected by the "big choker" Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain blocked Van Lier's shot right to Gail Goodrich down the court for the go-ahead basket. Is there any mention of this clutch defensive play from Chamberlain in Bill Simmons "Book Of Basketball"?

1973 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 23 points, 21 rebounds in a 9 point loss (a hobbled Jerry West finished with 12 points)

Yep...Wilt was a "choker" and a "failure."

Incidentally, you can add game five of the '60 ECF's (Philadelphia was down 3-1, so it was a must-win game), and he responded with a 50-35 game against Russell in a 128-107 win. Keep in mind that game was in his rookie season, and he faced a Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers.

And, IMHO, his greatest effort came against Kareem in game six of the WCF's. He held Kareem to 16-37 shooting, while going 8-12 himself, and scoring 22 points with 24 rebounds. And, he absolutely took over the game in the 4th quarter and led LA back from a 10 point deficit to a clinching four-point win. He also blocked 11 shots in that game, and five of them were against Kareem.

Or Wilt, with two badly injured wrists dominating the clinching game five win the Finals, with a 24 point, 10-14 shooting, 29 rebound (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW), and 9 block game.

[coastalmarker99]

In recent days and even last few years really I've collected a lot of Wilt footage available on YT and crunched a lot of numbers. Recently a lot more has been made available by coastalmarker, 70's fan on YT and of course the owner of Wilt Chamberlain Archive ISH's own CavsFTW who hasn't been active on here in a while. Also watched a lot of Thinking Basketball and some other great analysis by people I respect a lot.

I've become to realize that because of his 50 ppg season and his 100 point game people are looking at Wilt all wrong. People often look at him as an offensive juggernaut with good defense but instead he should be looked at as a defensive juggernaut with good offense.

Why do I say that?

Every time Wilt joined a team they improved defensively by a considerable margin and not that much offensively. And when he left teams they regressed defensively and didn't lose much offensively. It's well know that Wilt's teams did much better when he scored less and passed the ball more. In terms of passing ability from what is available on film, Wilt mostly made basic assists when he was double teamed. He didn't demonstrate some unbelievable vision. For instance he was nowhere near Jokic as a passer from what I've seen. Wilt as a volume scorer was fairly efficient in general but not against Russell in the playoffs. In an 8-team NBA, he would face Russell in almost every title run so this one match-up is way more significant than any single matchup in the modern NBA. Against the Celtics, Wilt's Sixers often did well when he shot less and focused on the defensive side of the floor. When he tried to score a lot he rarely ever did so efficiently. And when a guy rarely moves team offenses even at full capacity shaving off a few PPG and efficiency points made his offensive impact close to nothing. Wilt was no Kareem or Shaq on offense and that's clear from video, stats and impact number. IMO he isn't even close. I would also rank Hakeem ahead of Wilt as an offensive player considering how inelastic his scoring is, in other words Hakeem was able to score efficiently even against the best defenders often times. Wilt's coaches generally misused him and it was Alex Hannum and later Bill Sharman who realized that Wilt's real value lay on the defensive end and they tried to reduce his offensive load to focus on defense.

Being second to Russell has also clouded people's judgment regarding his defense into thinking that he wasn't THAT GOOD on defense failing to realize that Russell is far and away the defensive GOAT. Russell anchored so many defenses -7 or more points below league average in DRtg and his teams fell of the cliff when he missed games or retired. He has untouchable defensive impact. Wilt had a pretty monstrous impact on defense himself not compared to Russell but compared to most other big men who ever played the game. Now admittedly a lot of that is the era. With no 3pt line and most shots taken within 15 feet of the basket of course a big that can block 10 shots and change 20 more with his help defense is gonna have ridiculous impact. Still I can easily see a case for Wilt as the 2nd best defensive center ever even with the time machine argument.

All in all based on stats, impact but primarily the increasing amount of film I've watched I mostly see Wilt as a David Robinson type player but with even better motor ala Moses Malone which helped him on the glass. Dude could crush teams on the offensive glass (his best offensive attribute IMO), had a decent fadeaway and could absolutely power up under the rim although not nearly to the extent Shaq could because Wilt had thinner legs and a higher center of mass. He had a soft touch with his turnarounds but he wasn't effective outside of 10 feet. He could make basic passes but was nothing special there and turned it over regularly passing through traffic. Also being a major liability on the free throw line limited his usefulness as a go-to guy offensively in close games. It's on the defensive end that he was a real monster though. He was agile with fantastic recoveries around his peak year 1967 and of course a ridiculous shotblocker with his reach and vertical.

Here are some Wilt defensive videos for those who may not have seen much. If you watch the games that are available you can see more in context but this demonstrates his abilities pretty well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo-d57TJy2g


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGCySdvlPo




TL;DR version:

Wilt was a monstrous defensive player with just good offense. Maybe top 3 defensive player ever but not even top 10 offensively.

Wilt's post-season FG% allowed vs centers

59-60:

Kerr regular season FG% against the league: .39.2 Kerr against Wilt in the playoffs: .29.4

Dierking regular season FG%: .36.5 Dierking vs Wilt in the post-season: .33.3

Russell regular season: .46.7 Russell vs. Wilt in the post-season: .44.6

60-61:

Kerr regular season: .39.7 Kerr vs Wilt: .32.1

Halbrook regular season: .33.5 Halbrook vs Wilt: .38.7

61-62:

Kerr regular season: .44.3 Kerr vs. Wilt: .37.6

Russell regular season: .45.7 Russell vs Wilt: .39.9

63-64:

Beaty regular season: .44.4 Beaty vs. Wilt: .52.0

Russell regular season: .43.3 Russell vs. Wilt: .38.6

64-65:

Embry regular season: .45.6 Embry vs Wilt .43.8

Russell regular season: .43.8 Russell vs. Wilt 44.6

65-66:

Russell regular season: .41.5 Russell vs. Wilt: .42.4

66-67:

Dierking regular season: .39.9 Dierking vs Wilt: .42.7

Russell regular season: .45.4 Russell vs. Wilt: .35.8

Thurmond regular season: .43.7 Thurmond vs. Wilt: .34.3

67-68:

Bellamy regular season: .54.1 Bellamy vs. Wilt: .42.1

Russell regular season: .42.5 Russell vs. Wilt: .44.0

68-69:

Thurmond regular season: .41.0 Thurmond vs Wilt: .39.2

Beaty regular season: .47.0 Beaty vs. Wilt: .38.3

Russell regular season: .43.3 Russell vs. Wilt: .39.7

69-70:

Walk regular season: .47.0 Walk vs Wilt: .39.5

Fox regular season: .52.4 Fox vs Wilt: .36.2

Bellamy regular season: .52.3 Bellamy vs Wilt: .45.6

Reed regular season: .50.7 Reed vs Wilt: .48.3

70-71:

Boerwinkle regular season: .48.5 Boerwinkle vs Wilt: .46.3

Fox regular season: .45.8 Fox vs Wilt: .43.4

Kareem regular season: .57.7 Kareem vs Wilt: .48.1

71-72:

Ray regular season: .49.9 Ray vs Wilt: .52.9

Kareem regular season: .57.4 Kareem vs Wilt: .45.7

Lucas regular season: .51.2 Lucas vs Wilt: .50.0

72-73:

Awtry regular season: .48.0 Awtry vs Wilt: .54.2

Thurmond regular season: .44.6 Thurmond vs Wilt: .37.3

Reed regular season: .47.4 Reed vs Wilt: .49.3

[coastalmarker99]

5 times Wilt faced a team with the league MVP( all opposing hall of fame centers) Wilt would average 24.5 points,24.6 rebounds on 52.2 field goal percentage. the opposing MVP's centers combined averages vs Wilt were 22.8 points,19.1 rebounds, on a 45.1 field goal percentage.


Chamberlain also had in the postseason 8 games without assessing any personal fouls in those games Wilt's teams would win 6 games and lose 2 games. Wilt would average in those games 24.0 points,25,1 rebounds,4,6 assists on a 53.8 field goal percentage.


Chamberlain also played on 9 teams that lead the league in personal fouls. Chamberlain averaged one foul every 18.35 minutes in the postseason and he also never fouled out of a regular-season or postseason game.


Chamberlain faced an opposing hall of fame starting center in all six of his nba finals. Wilt would average 18.8 points,24.5 rebounds on a 55.4 field goal percentage. The opposing Hof centers finals averages combined were 15.1 points,16.9 rebounds on 43.9 field goal percentage.


In Chamberlain's two-game 7's he played in the finals Wilt would average 19.5 points,25.5 rebounds, on a 70.8 field goal percentage. While his opposing hall of fame starting centers would both combined average 5.0 points,12,0 rebounds on a field goal percentage of 33.3 percent.

4 times Wilt faced the best scoring team in the league in the postseason. Wilt would average 28.6, 22.6 rebounds,2.9 assists on 48.8 field goal percentage. While holding all of his opposing hall of fame/all star centers combined to 18.0 points,16.9 rebounds ,2.7 assists on 44.6 field goal percentage.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I have posted these numbers before, but they do provide a better perspective on those that claim that Wilt "shrank" in the post-season.

Here are Chamberlain's post-season numbers:

Thru Chamberlain's "scoring" seasons, 1959-60 thru 1965-66, Wilt averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 3.2 APG, and on a .50.5 FG%, in league's that averaged .42.6 shooting in that span...or WAY over the league average. And, keep in mind that Wilt's roster was so horrible in his 62-63 season, that his team failed to make the playoffs...in a year in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting.

32.8 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 3.2 APG, .505 (in league's that shot .42.6)

Thru Wilt's absolute prime, 1959-60 to 1966-67, when Chamberlain led the Sixers to a 68-13 record, and a world title.

30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 APG, .51.5 FG% (in league's that shot .42.8 in that span)

Thru Wilt's 11th season, and in the year in which he was injured...

25.8 ppg, 25.6 rpg, 4.4 APG, .52.4 FG% ( in league's that shot .43.3 over that span.)

Think about that...in Wilt's first 11 seasons, covering 10 post-seasons, he averaged a 26-26-4 .52.0 (in league's that shot .43.0)

And once again, in his NINE game seven's in his post-season career, Chamberlain averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shot .62.6... which is not only the highest FG% ever in game seven's by an all-time "great"...it was achieved in league's that shot about .43.5 on average.

And, in his SIX Finals, covering 35 games, Chamberlain shot a combined .56.0.

Furthermore, Wilt had entire post-seasons in which he averaged 28 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and even 37.0 ppg.

He had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and another at 38.6 ppg. He also had FOUR post-seasons, against RUSSELL, in which hee averaged 30+ ppg, including one seven-game series in which he averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg against him (and another one in which he averaged 28 ppg and 30 rpg against him.)

He had FOUR post-season games of 50+ points, which is second all-time, to MJ's eight. He had a 56-35 game in a game five of a best-of-five series, as well as a 50-35 game against Russell, in a "must-win" situation. BTW, he had a total of FOUR 40-30 games, just against Russell in the post-season.

He had the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .62.5 seven-game series in the '70 Finals.) He also had a 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, .60.0 Finals in '72.

He had an entire post-season of 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 APG, and .579 shooting (in a league that shot .44.1) covering 15 games. And in two of those three playoff series that year, he averaged a TRIPLE DOUBLE. One of them was against Russell (21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 APG, and on .55.6 shooting), and the other was a 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 APG and on .61.2 shooting against the Royals. Then, in the Finals, he outscored Thurmond, outrebounded Nate, and outshot Thurmond by a staggering .56.0 to .34.3 margin.

Chamberlain played in 13 post-seasons, in his 14 season career. His LOW rebound per game post-season, was 20.2 rpg. He also had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7+ rpg, with highs of 29.1 rpg, and 30.2 rpg. He was also NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 post-season series.

And, how about this...(thanks to PHILA for much of it BTW)...

Quote: 1960 Game 3 vs. Nationals (best of 3 series at the time): 53 points in a 20 point win.

1962 Game 5 vs. Nationals: 56 points, 35 rebounds 12 blocks in a 17 point win.

1962 Game 6 vs Celtics: 32 points in a 10 point win

1962 Game 7 vs Celtics: 22 points, 21 rebounds in a 2 point loss

1964 Game 5 vs. Hawks: 50 points in a 24 point win.

1964 Game 7 vs. Hawks: 39 points, 26 rebounds, 12 blocks in a 10 point win.

1965 Game 6 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 26 rebounds in a 6 point win

1965 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 32 rebounds 7 blocks in a 1 point loss

1966 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 46 points, 34 rebounds 6 blocks in an 8 point loss

1967 Game 2 vs. Royals: 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists in a 21 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Royals: 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 1 vs. Celtics: 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists, 12 blocks in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Celtics: 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists 11 blocks in an 11 point win.

1967 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists plus 15 blocked shots in a 24 point win.

1968 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 27 rebounds in an 18 point win. A little known fact is that Chamberlain led BOTH TEAMS in points, rebounds, and assists for the entire series, whilst nursing an assortment of injuries, including his annual shin splints. This against two Hall Of Fame centers Walt Bellamy & Willis Reed. Apparently, Willis used to tremble at the mere sight of Luke Jackson in the MSG tunnel pre-game.

1968 Game 7 vs Celtics: 14 points, 34 rebounds plus 11 blocks in a 4 point loss (This despite two touches in the entire 4th quarter, the smartest move Russell has ever made in his career switching himself over to guard Chet).

1969 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 18 points, 27 rebounds 12 blocks in a 2 point loss (Head coach leaves him on the bench due to a personal grudge.)

1970 Game 5 vs. Suns: 36 points, 14 rebounds in a 17 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Suns: 30 points, 27 rebounds, 11 blocks in a 35 point win (helped lead Lakers back from 1-3 deficit)

1970 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 45 points, 27 rebounds in a 22 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Knicks: 21 points, 24 rebounds in a 14 point loss

(Understand that he should have not even been playing in the 1969-70 season after his injury, but was able to rehab his knee in time with his workouts in volleyball, a sport he would later become a Hall Of Famer in as well.)

1971 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 25 points, 18 rebounds 8 blocks in an 11 point win

1971 Game 5 vs. Bucks: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 6 blocks in an 18 point loss without Elgin Baylor or Jerry West. (Alcindor in this game had 20 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks).

1973 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 21 points, 28 rebounds in a 3 point win (Bulls had the ball and a one-point lead with 30 or so seconds left in the 4th. Norm Van Lier goes up for the shot only to have it rejected by the "big choker" Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain blocked Van Lier's shot right to Gail Goodrich down the court for the go-ahead basket. Is there any mention of this clutch defensive play from Chamberlain in Bill Simmons "Book Of Basketball"?

1973 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 23 points, 21 rebounds in a 9 point loss (a hobbled Jerry West finished with 12 points)

Yep...Wilt was a "choker" and a "failure."

Incidentally, you can add game five of the '60 ECF's (Philadelphia was down 3-1, so it was a must-win game), and he responded with a 50-35 game against Russell in a 128-107 win. Keep in mind that game was in his rookie season, and he faced a Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers.

Or Wilt, with two badly injured wrists dominating the clinching game five win the Finals, with a 24 point, 10-14 shooting, 29 rebound (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW), and 9 block game.

Fair points but I still think wilt isn't as good of a scorer as Kawhi. Wilt is a very good player but his playoff scoring still declined dramtically during his prime. Lets look at 1962-1966

Wilt in reg season: 40 PPG

Playoffs: 29.5 PPG

That's the dramatic deline I was talking about. Kawhi also already has 2 finals MVPS and he beat better players then Wilt did.

Kawhi beating Curry > Wilt beating Walt Frazier

Kawhi beating LeBron > any 60s player

Wilt also needed jerry west to carry him offensively in the 1970s as well.

[coastalmarker99]

He's not better then Kawhi because kawhi actually increases his performance in playoffs, not decrease his performance.

Kawhi is also a good guy and a leader. Wilt is a piece of trash and a deadbeat dad.

Wilt in his 11 "at the limit elimination" games...as well as his starting opposing center's numbers..

133-229 FG/FGA .58.1 FG% 63-140 FT/FTA .45.0 FT% .55.0 TS% 299 Rebs 27.2 RPG 39 ast (10 known games) 3.9 APG 30 blocks (4 known games) 7.5 bpg 329 pts 29.9 ppg 6-5 W-L

Starting Opposing Centers:

37-87 FG/FGA (8 known games) .42.5 FG% 24-35 FT/FTA .68.6 FT% .46.9 TS% 130 Rebs (8 known games) 16.3 RPG 32 ast (8 known games) 4.0 apg 128 pts 11.6 ppg 5-6 W-L

So Wilt was basically a 30-27-4-8 .55.0 TS% (in a post-season NBA's that shot about a .48.0 TS% in that same span) player in his "at the limit elimination" games. All while slaughtering his opposing centers

And here is a prime "scoring" Wilt's numbers in his 5 "at the limit elimination" games, as well as his starting opposing center's numbers...

Wilt:

84-149 FG/FGA .56.4 FG% 32-66 FT/FTA .48.5 FT% .54.9 TS% 141 Rebs 28.2 rpg 8 asts (4 known games) 2.0 apg 11 blks (2 known games) 5.5 bpg 200 pts 40.0 ppg 3-2 W-L

Starting Opposing Center's numbers:

26-64 FG/FGA .40.6 FG% 11-13 FT/FTA .84.6 FT% .44.7 TS% 70 Rebs (4 known games) 17.5 RPG 16 asts (4 known games) 4.0 apg 71 pts 14.2 ppg 2-3 W-L

So a "scoring" Chamberlain was basically a 40-28-2-6 .55.0 TS% (in post-seasons that shot about a TS% of .46.0) player in his "at the limit elimination" games...all while just obliterating his opposing starting centers.

BTW, if you add up Wilt's points in those 11 games (329), and then add up his regular-season scoring averages in those same seasons, it comes to 343 (38, 50, 50, 37, 35, 24, 21, 27, 27, 21, and 13.) So, Chamberlain basically equalled his regular-season scoring average in those 11 games (29.9 ppg vs 31.2 ppg)...and on a considerably higher FG% than his regular-season FG% in that same span.

And for those that just want game seven's...

Wilt played in nine of them, and his team went 4-5.

He averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 4.1 apg, 7.5 bpg, .62.6 FG%, .45.1 FT%, and a .57.9 TS%. BTW, that .62.6 FG% is easily the highest of a "GOAT" candidate.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Fair points but I still think wilt isn't as good of a scorer as Kawhi. Wilt is a very good player but his playoff scoring still declined dramtically during his prime. Lets look at 1962-1966

Wilt in reg season: 40 PPG

Playoffs: 29.5 PPG

That's the dramatic deline I was talking about. Kawhi also already has 2 finals MVPS and he beat better players then Wilt did.

Kawhi beating Curry > Wilt beating Walt Frazier

Kawhi beating LeBron > anybody in the 1970s

Wilt also needed jerry west to carry him offensively in the 1970s as well. So overall I think wilt is overrated as a scorer and offensive player.

11 PPG drop off for wilt. He was more worried about his stats. Kawhi is a way better team player then Wilt and less of an ego. Wilt is an asshole to put it in basic terms. A team that is built around Kawhi is much easier to build around but that's just my take.

[coastalmarker99]

Fair points but I still think wilt isn't as good of a scorer as Kawhi. Wilt is a very good player but his playoff scoring still declined dramtically during his prime. Lets look at 1962-1966

Wilt in reg season: 40 PPG

Playoffs: 29.5 PPG

That's the dramatic deline I was talking about. Kawhi also already has 2 finals MVPS and he beat better players then Wilt did.

Kawhi beating Curry > Wilt beating Walt Frazier

Kawhi beating LeBron > any 60s player

Wilt also needed jerry west to carry him offensively in the 1970s as well.


Nope in the one post-season in which West finally won a ring...his team won that title despite his awful shooting. He shot .37.6 in his entire post-season and an absolute horrid .32.5 in the Finals. So, he should have thanked Chamberlain for that one ring.

As Wilt in the 1972 postseason locked down a prime Kareem in the WCF's and then dominated in the Finals...en route to an FMVP (19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, and on .60.0 shooting.) Oh, and in the clinching game six in the WCF's, Wilt was magnificent, dominating Kareem down the stretch, and leading his team back from a 10 point 4th quarter deficit.

Then, in the clinching game five of the Finals, all Wilt did (and with two badly injured wrists) was to score 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocked shots to lead the Lakers to their first-ever title in La.

[Axe]

Has there been any playoff series from the past in which wilt and his team choked a 3-1 lead against an underdog team?

[SouBeachTalents]

Has there been any playoff series from the past in which wilt and his team choked a 3-1 lead against an underdog team?
'68 ECF, but losing to the Russell Celtics is a bit more respectable than 7'1 Windhorst

[coastalmarker99]

Fair points but I still think wilt isn't as good of a scorer as Kawhi. Wilt is a very good player but his playoff scoring still declined dramtically during his prime. Lets look at 1962-1966

Wilt in reg season: 40 PPG

Playoffs: 29.5 PPG

That's the dramatic deline I was talking about. Kawhi also already has 2 finals MVPS and he beat better players then Wilt did.

Kawhi beating Curry > Wilt beating Walt Frazier

Kawhi beating LeBron > anybody in the 1970s

Wilt also needed jerry west to carry him offensively in the 1970s as well. So overall I think wilt is overrated as a scorer and offensive player.

11 PPG drop off for wilt. He was more worried about his stats. Kawhi is a way better team player then Wilt and less of an ego. Wilt is an asshole to put it in basic terms. A team that is built around Kawhi is much easier to build around but that's just my take.



This comes down to three factors:

Wilt's scoring dropped in the postseason because he played in his prime over half of his games against teams with -4.0 rDRtg. That's an absurd number of games played against absolutely elite defences. That's more than any superstar center ever. He still put up elite numbers:

47.5 mpg, 28.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, 28.1 ppg on 50.8% FG, 50.6% FT, 52.2% TS (+3.84 rTS%)

Compare this to other greats:

Kareem: 44.1 mpg, 15.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 33.3 ppg on 54.5% FG, 72.2% FT, 56.9% TS (+5.28 rTS%)
Shaq: 41.1 mpg, 13.3 rpg, 2.9 apg, 3.3 tov, 26.9 ppg on 55.8% FG, 53.5% FT and 56.9% TS (+4.59% rTS)
Hakeem: 42.0 mpg, 10.2 rpg, 3.1 apg, 3.4 tov, 24.1 ppg on 48.9% FG, 75.2% FT and 53.9% TS (+0.30% rTS)
Duncan: 41.7 mpg, 13.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.6 ppg on 47.8% FG, 68.0% FT and 52.7% TS (+0.50% rTS)

Kareem played 26% of his playoffs games against elite defences in his prime, Shaq played 31%, Hakeem 15%, Duncan 17%. Wilt? 52% and he looks better here than Hakeem and Duncan, only worse than two GOAT offensive centers in Kareem and Shaq (and not by much). He's better rebounder and defender than Kareem and Shaq though, so overall I'm not even sure he's worse playoffs performer than them.


2 Wilt played exactly half of his playoffs games as a Laker. The league expanded in late 1960s, playoffs runs became longer. He was clearly past his prime at this point. His numbers before Lakers and during career in LA:

29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 APG before LAL
15.8 ppg, 22.3 rpg and 3.6 APG in LAL

Imagine Shaq playing half of his PS games after 2004. His averages wouldn't be close to his career averages.

3 Wilt adjusted in playoffs. People love blaming him for such a dropoff in 1962 ppg, but don't realize that he shot more than 10 times less in playoffs. Coach and Wilt understood that you can't win in playoffs when your main player tries to score 50 points every time.


Wilt was asked to do that in RS because it made Warriors more interesting to watch for fans, but he wouldn't do much with the same strategy against the Celtics. He upped his defence, played every single minute of every game and still scored 35 ppg. Warriors lost to Celtics in the last seconds of game 7. Hard to blame Wilt for that.

[coastalmarker99]

'68 ECF, but losing to the Russell Celtics is a bit more respectable than 7'1 Windhorst

The 1968 76ers would have won the title if they fully healthy that year unfortunately they were not as you can see down below









New York Times - Apr 18, 1968

But injuries have depleted the team that ended the Celtics' eight-year reign last season. Wally Jones, the jump-shooting Philadelphia guard with the game-breaking touch, is doubtful for Friday. He aggravated his right knee, first injured during the series with the New York Knickerbockers, early in the opening quarter and did not return.

Wilt Chamberlain, the 7-foot pillar of the 76ers, produced 20 points but was in obvious pain with an ailing right leg.




Williamson Daily News - Apr 10, 1968






DELAWARE COUNTY - April 13, 1968

Club Rated 'Most Courageous' By Hannum as Injuries Mount

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - The Philadelphia 76ers could be billed as the best touring troupe In basketball. All they need is a doctor to complete the cast.

Going into the fourth game Sunday of their National Basketball Association playoff series with the Boston Celtics, the 76ers are hurting from head to toe.

So what's new? Injuries have plagued the defending NBA champions since the opening of the season.

"Alex Hannum says this is the most courageous team he's ever coached," says Harvey Pollack, the 76ers' statistician. "The locker room looks like a hospital ward every time I walk in."

Pollack ticked off some of the cases, which read like a medical diary:

-Wilt Chamberlain (partial tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe):

-Wally Jones (injured knee cartilage):

-Luke Jackson (pulled hamstring muscle):

-Hal Greer (bursitus in his right knee):

-And, Billy Cunningham (broken right wrist).

"That's not mentioning (rookie) Jim Reid who had a knee operation after injuring it the first game of the season," said Pollack, "and Larry Costello," the veteran guard who tore an ankle tendon after one-third of the season was gone.

The most recent injury was to Chamberlain in Friday night's Eastern Division playoff contest with the Celtics. The dipper was given whirlpool treatments for the calf muscle tear, but Pollack wasn't sure how he'd respond.

The 76ers have nine men in uniform for the best-of-seven playoffs, which they lead, two games to one. But whether they'll have anybody left for the finals against the Western Division winner is anybody's guess.

The team's troubles multiplied in the Eastern Division semifinals against the New York Knickerbockers. Cunningham broke his wrist, knocking him out for the season, Jones and Jackson suffered their injuries and Chamberlain aggravated his perennial toe injury.

And when Boston thumped the 76ers in the opening game of their playoffs here last Friday, some predicted a quick knockout of the injury-riddled champs.

But Philadelphia whacked Boston two straight, including Thursday where an injury actually helped the 76ers cause, points out Pollack.

How so?

"Well, Chamberlain was hurt and he couldn't turn around to score-so he kept feeding Greer, and he scored 31," explained the statistician.

[Axe]

The 1968 76ers would have won the title if they fully healthy that year unfortunately they were not as you can see down below









New York Times - Apr 18, 1968

But injuries have depleted the team that ended the Celtics' eight-year reign last season. Wally Jones, the jump-shooting Philadelphia guard with the game-breaking touch, is doubtful for Friday. He aggravated his right knee, first injured during the series with the New York Knickerbockers, early in the opening quarter and did not return.

Wilt Chamberlain, the 7-foot pillar of the 76ers, produced 20 points but was in obvious pain with an ailing right leg.




Williamson Daily News - Apr 10, 1968






DELAWARE COUNTY - April 13, 1968

Club Rated 'Most Courageous' By Hannum as Injuries Mount

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - The Philadelphia 76ers could be billed as the best touring troupe In basketball. All they need is a doctor to complete the cast.

Going into the fourth game Sunday of their National Basketball Association playoff series with the Boston Celtics, the 76ers are hurting from head to toe.

So what's new? Injuries have plagued the defending NBA champions since the opening of the season.

"Alex Hannum says this is the most courageous team he's ever coached," says Harvey Pollack, the 76ers' statistician. "The locker room looks like a hospital ward every time I walk in."

Pollack ticked off some of the cases, which read like a medical diary:

-Wilt Chamberlain (partial tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe):

-Wally Jones (injured knee cartilage):

-Luke Jackson (pulled hamstring muscle):

-Hal Greer (bursitus in his right knee):

-And, Billy Cunningham (broken right wrist).

"That's not mentioning (rookie) Jim Reid who had a knee operation after injuring it the first game of the season," said Pollack, "and Larry Costello," the veteran guard who tore an ankle tendon after one-third of the season was gone.

The most recent injury was to Chamberlain in Friday night's Eastern Division playoff contest with the Celtics. The dipper was given whirlpool treatments for the calf muscle tear, but Pollack wasn't sure how he'd respond.

The 76ers have nine men in uniform for the best-of-seven playoffs, which they lead, two games to one. But whether they'll have anybody left for the finals against the Western Division winner is anybody's guess.

The team's troubles multiplied in the Eastern Division semifinals against the New York Knickerbockers. Cunningham broke his wrist, knocking him out for the season, Jones and Jackson suffered their injuries and Chamberlain aggravated his perennial toe injury.

And when Boston thumped the 76ers in the opening game of their playoffs here last Friday, some predicted a quick knockout of the injury-riddled champs.

But Philadelphia whacked Boston two straight, including Thursday where an injury actually helped the 76ers cause, points out Pollack.

How so?

"Well, Chamberlain was hurt and he couldn't turn around to score-so he kept feeding Greer, and he scored 31," explained the statistician.
All this contribute to them being hampered while the '20 clippers were mostly or fully healthy.

Yikes. :biggums:

[coastalmarker99]

All this contribute to them being hampered while the '20 clippers were mostly or fully healthy.

Yikes. :biggums:


Kawhi choke job against the nuggets last year in the playoffs is by far the worst choke ever by a superstar they had three double-digit leads in games 5 6 and 7 and yet they still couldn't win the series in the end.

[Axe]

Kawhi choke job against the nuggets last year in the playoffs is by far the worst choke ever by a superstar they had three double-digit leads in games 5 6 and 7 and yet they still couldn't win the series in the end.
True. What makes it even more disappointing is the fact that they had double digit leads after halftime in most of the last three games there. The nuggets weren't expected to get out of the second round either but they did so against all odds. So no excuses for them.

[dankok8]

I haven't looked at the footage you have, but it sounds pretty absurd to say someone dropping a 100 pt game, like double digit 60 pt games, averaging FIFTY a SEASON, isnt top 10 offensively...

oh btw also led the league in assists when he decided to.

His postseason meltdowns however are what they are. Inexcusable.

West and Oscar were better offensive players just in his own era. Why do I say that? Their offensive impact numbers were better. When they sat, their teams were terrible on offense and when they played their teams were elite. Especially Oscar whose unimpressive Royals teams were #1 in ORtg year after year after year in the 60's. Wilt actually had good supporting casts in some of his scoring years and they were league average on offense. Wilt didn't have much impact.

Based on the available footage it seems to me that Wilt's assists were just basic passes that his teammates simply converted as midrange J's. Hal Greer and Billy Cunningham were really good shooters. Wilt didn't have amazing court vision. They were basic, low leverage passes... sometimes called Rondo passes because he's another guy who averaged high assist numbers but without amazing court vision. The offense back in Alex Hannum's system then ran inside out through Wilt and he had the ball a lot so naturally he'd have a lot of assists. In 1968 he overdid his passing to such an extent that he refused to shoot and as such he was rarely ever double-teamed so he created relatively marginal shots for his teammates when he passed out. I saw maybe one or two good passes to cutters that I remember but even those were nothing out of the ordinary and most of his passes were just basic passes.

There's been plenty of games recently released from 1964 and 1965 which was prime Wilt. He was a terror on the offensive glass and ran the floor like a deer and often received passes for uncontested dunks. When (good) defenses took away this easy offense, Wilt didn't have that much to go to. The fadeaway was ok but it wasn't that good of a weapon, he couldn't go as strong as Shaq because of a weaker lower body nor did he want to be seen as a brute, and his footwork around the rim wasn't impressive. Again IMO based on what I watched. Like I said in the OP he looks to me like a David Robinson/Moses Malone hybrid. Basically DRob if he was more lethal on the boards and didn't take midrange J's. That's a hell of a player probably a GOAT level player but more because of his defense than offense.

I used to be very critical of Wilt's postseason meltdowns over the years, from 1968 to 1970 but I've grown softer to this narrative because I don't really see Wilt's role as taking over as a scorer. Despite averaging 50 points in a season, I don't really see scoring as Wilt's main strength as crazy as that sounds. He's one of the only player in NBA history who could be an MVP caliber player scoring 10 points. And we saw that in 1972. My view on Wilt has evolved.

[coastalmarker99]

West and Oscar were better offensive players just in his own era. Why do I say that? Their offensive impact numbers were better. When they sat, their teams were terrible on offense and when they played their teams were elite. Especially Oscar whose unimpressive Royals teams were #1 in ORtg year after year after year in the 60's. Wilt actually had good supporting casts in some of his scoring years and they were league average on offense. Wilt didn't have much impact.

Based on the available footage it seems to me that Wilt's assists were just basic passes that his teammates simply converted as midrange J's. Hal Greer and Billy Cunningham were really good shooters. Wilt didn't have amazing court vision. They were basic, low leverage passes... sometimes called Rondo passes because he's another guy who averaged high assist numbers but without amazing court vision. The offense back in Alex Hannum's system then ran inside out through Wilt and he had the ball a lot so naturally he'd have a lot of assists. In 1968 he overdid his passing to such an extent that he refused to shoot and as such he was rarely ever double-teamed so he created relatively marginal shots for his teammates when he passed out. I saw maybe one or two good passes to cutters that I remember but even those were nothing out of the ordinary and most of his passes were just basic passes.

There's been plenty of games recently released from 1964 and 1965 which was prime Wilt. He was a terror on the offensive glass and ran the floor like a deer and often received passes for uncontested dunks. When (good) defenses took away this easy offense, Wilt didn't have that much to go to. The fadeaway was ok but it wasn't that good of a weapon, he couldn't go as strong as Shaq because of a weaker lower body nor did he want to be seen as a brute, and his footwork around the rim wasn't impressive. Again IMO based on what I watched. Like I said in the OP he looks to me like a David Robinson/Moses Malone hybrid. Basically DRob if he was more lethal on the boards and didn't take midrange J's. That's a hell of a player probably a GOAT level player but more because of his defense than offense.

I used to be very critical of Wilt's postseason meltdowns over the years, from 1968 to 1970 but I've grown softer to this narrative because I don't really see Wilt's role as taking over as a scorer. Despite averaging 50 points in a season, I don't really see scoring as Wilt's main strength as crazy as that sounds. He's one of the only player in NBA history who could be an MVP caliber player scoring 10 points. And we saw that in 1972. My view on Wilt has evolved.



Wilt couldn't play like Shaq because of the rules that his era had I am certain that if Wilt was allowed to lower his shoulder in the post and use his strength that he would have dominated even more offensively and truthfully he would have averaged 70 points a game instead of 50 and also had multiple 100 point games if he was allowed to play as Shaq did.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XTPVBOCLw&t=89s

[dankok8]

Wilt couldn't play like Shaq because of the rules that his era had I am certain that if Wilt was allowed to lower his shoulder in the post and use his strength that he would have dominated even more offensively and truthfully he would have averaged 70 points a game instead of 50 and also had multiple 100 point games if he was allowed to play as Shaq did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XTPVBOCLw&t=89s

Wilt didn't want to be a power player. However he didn't have the lower body that Shaq had though. Wilt could be thrown off balance more easily.

Here is a great video. Wilt block party. This is when the 1972 Lakers won their 33rd straight game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPyGdO9BVsY

Poor Bellamy!

[dankok8]

By the way here are the highlights from Wilt's 73 point game against the Knicks on Nov 16, 1962. He shot 29/43 from the field and 15/19 from the line. This footage has 21 of those field goals he made:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfaEJeRLT-8

There's a couple of fadeaways but most of the baskets are easy dunks and layups either from deep catches over undersized defenders, from running the break or offensive boards at point blank. The Knicks tallest players were about 6'9'' so they were not equipped to deal with his size and athleticism. Someone like Bill Russell took a lot of this kind of offense away quite easily.

[light]

The reason this idea doesn't work is that Wilt was obsessed with scoring and didnt care about defense. To think of him as defensive first is to completely misunderstand not only Chamberlain himself but also how people viewed him and enjoyed/hated him.

It was difficult to get Wilt to play defense. He did not always apply himself. It was said that the only coach he played defense for was Alex Hannum (Sixers coach).

He was a scoring machine first and foremost and the preoccupation with his coaches was in trying to get him to pass more. He was a lot like Michael Jordan in that way.

The defense may have improved coincidentally simply because of his size and athleticism - and rebounding - not because he focused on being a great defender. He actually didn't care.

"Defensive juggernaut" cannot be used to describe Wilt at all. In fact that would make players from his era laugh.

[coastalmarker99]

The reason this idea doesn't work is that Wilt was obsessed with scoring and didnt care about defense. To think of him as defensive first is to completely misunderstand not only Chamberlain himself but also how people viewed him and enjoyed/hated him.

It was difficult to get Wilt to play defense. He did not always apply himself. It was said that the only coach he played defense for was Alex Hannum (Sixers coach).

He was a scoring machine first and foremost and the preoccupation with his coaches was in trying to get him to pass more. He was a lot like Michael Jordan in that way.

The defense may have improved coincidentally simply because of his size and athleticism - and rebounding - not because he focused on being a great defender. He actually didn't care.

"Defensive juggernaut" cannot be used to describe Wilt at all. In fact that would make players from his era laugh.



Wilt actually was a defensive juggernaut and many players of his era and coaches have backed that statement up.


And the stats back it up as well as nobody ever outrebounded Wilt in a playoff series


Plus

Wilt's post-season FG% allowed vs centers

59-60:

Kerr regular season FG% against the league: .39.2 Kerr against Wilt in the playoffs: .29.4

Dierking regular season FG%: .36.5 Dierking vs Wilt in the post-season: .33.3

Russell regular season: .46.7 Russell vs. Wilt in the post-season: .44.6

60-61:

Kerr regular season: .39.7 Kerr vs Wilt: .32.1

Halbrook regular season: .33.5 Halbrook vs Wilt: .38.7

61-62:

Kerr regular season: .44.3 Kerr vs. Wilt: .37.6

Russell regular season: .45.7 Russell vs Wilt: .39.9

63-64:

Beaty regular season: .44.4 Beaty vs. Wilt: .52.0

Russell regular season: .43.3 Russell vs. Wilt: .38.6

64-65:

Embry regular season: .45.6 Embry vs Wilt .43.8

Russell regular season: .43.8 Russell vs. Wilt 44.6

65-66:

Russell regular season: .41.5 Russell vs. Wilt: .42.4

66-67:

Dierking regular season: .39.9 Dierking vs Wilt: .42.7

Russell regular season: .45.4 Russell vs. Wilt: .35.8

Thurmond regular season: .43.7 Thurmond vs. Wilt: .34.3

67-68:

Bellamy regular season: .54.1 Bellamy vs. Wilt: .42.1

Russell regular season: .42.5 Russell vs. Wilt: .44.0

68-69:

Thurmond regular season: .41.0 Thurmond vs Wilt: .39.2

Beaty regular season: .47.0 Beaty vs. Wilt: .38.3

Russell regular season: .43.3 Russell vs. Wilt: .39.7

69-70:

Walk regular season: .47.0 Walk vs Wilt: .39.5

Fox regular season: .52.4 Fox vs Wilt: .36.2

Bellamy regular season: .52.3 Bellamy vs Wilt: .45.6

Reed regular season: .50.7 Reed vs Wilt: .48.3

70-71:

Boerwinkle regular season: .48.5 Boerwinkle vs Wilt: .46.3

Fox regular season: .45.8 Fox vs Wilt: .43.4

Kareem regular season: .57.7 Kareem vs Wilt: .48.1

71-72:

Ray regular season: .49.9 Ray vs Wilt: .52.9

Kareem regular season: .57.4 Kareem vs Wilt: .45.7

Lucas regular season: .51.2 Lucas vs Wilt: .50.0

72-73:

Awtry regular season: .48.0 Awtry vs Wilt: .54.2

Thurmond regular season: .44.6 Thurmond vs Wilt: .37.3

Reed regular season: .47.4 Reed vs Wilt: .49.3



And to add during Wilt's last 7 seasons after his scoring seasons, he would lead all players in playoff defensive win shares 5 out of 7 times during his non-scoring title seasons and two of those came with Russell still in the Nba at the time.

And if blocks were tracked for Wilt he would also more then likely have the most blocks ever in the playoffs and triple-doubles In 81 known playoff games of recorded block shots. Wilt blocked a total of 590 shots, as a result, Wilt averaged 7.3 blocks per game in the playoffs.

Tim Duncan has the most at 568 blocks and he played 251 playoffs games to Wilt's 160 and Wilt in less than 170 games at 81 games has more blocks then Tim Duncan.

it's possible that Wilt might have got 1000 blocks in the playoffs which is just ridiculous to think about. Chamberlain blocked about 7-8 BPG in his '72 season (in the known games, which were around 60 I believe.) And, in something like the known 50 games of Wilt's LAST season, in '73, Wilt was around 6 bpg.

[coastalmarker99]

The reason this idea doesn't work is that Wilt was obsessed with scoring and didnt care about defense. To think of him as defensive first is to completely misunderstand not only Chamberlain himself but also how people viewed him and enjoyed/hated him.

It was difficult to get Wilt to play defense. He did not always apply himself. It was said that the only coach he played defense for was Alex Hannum (Sixers coach).

He was a scoring machine first and foremost and the preoccupation with his coaches was in trying to get him to pass more. He was a lot like Michael Jordan in that way.

The defense may have improved coincidentally simply because of his size and athleticism - and rebounding - not because he focused on being a great defender. He actually didn't care.

"Defensive juggernaut" cannot be used to describe Wilt at all. In fact that would make players from his era laugh.


Wilt REDUCED opposing centers to Way below their normal shooting percentages in their known games, series, or even seasons. Many in the 10% range.

And, when he did want to absolutely stick to someone, he could, but that was not his role. Walt Bellamy, himself, came into his first meeting with Chamberlain averaging about 30 ppg. He claimed that Wilt told him that he would not score a point that game. AND, in the first half, Chamberlain supposedly held him scoreless, and blocked his first nine shots before telling him now he could play. BTW, Wilt outscored Bellamy in that game, 51-14.

And while it is almost universally accepted that Russell held Wilt below his normal offensive numbers, how about the reverse? In Wilt's rookie season, he faced Russell in 11 games. In the known first ten, Chamberlain outshot Russell from the floor, .46.5 to .39.8. Which was interesting from two vantage points. One, Wilt only shot .46.1 from the field the entire season. And two, Russell shot a career-high .46.7 that season.

In the 61-62 ECF's, while Russell did an outstanding job holding Wilt some 16 ppg below his seasonal average (BTW, Wilt "only" averaged 39.7 ppg against Russell in the regular season), and to a .46.8 FG% mark (Wilt shot .506 against the league, and .471 against Russell in the regular season), Wilt held Russell to somewhere around .420 shooting in that series (Russell shot .500 in his seven Finals games, and overall, in his 14 playoff games, with seven against Wilt, he shot .458 in the post-season.)


And, how about this? In the 64-65 Finals, and against LA, Russell averaged 18 ppg on a record .70.2 from the field. In the previous round against Wilt (who averaged 30 Ppg and 31 rpg in that seven-game series against Russell), Russell averaged 16 ppg on .45.1 shooting against Wilt. And that .451 mark was the highest that I could find by him in a post-season series against Chamberlain.

How about Russell in the '66 Finals, and again against the Lakers? He LED Boston in scoring, at 23.6 ppg. BUT, in the ECF's, and against Wilt, he was outscored, per game, 28 ppg to 14 ppg and also held to a shooting percentage of 42.4 percentage

In the '67 ECF's, and in a season in which Russell shot .45.4 overall, Wilt held him to 10.2 ppg on .35.8 shooting.


How about against other opposing centers in the playoffs? In the '60 playoffs, Wilt held Red Kerr, who had shot .392 in the regular season, to .29.6 shooting in their H2H series. The two met again twice more in the post-season, but I could only come up with one of Kerr's FG%'s. In the '62 playoffs. Kerr shot .37.6, in a season in which he shot .44.3.

Wilt not only crushed Thurmond in the 65-66 season offensively, while scoring 29 ppg against him in nine H2H's, but he also faced Nate in three playoff series. He badly outrebounded him in all three (Nate only outrebounded him in a couple of their 17 games), he outshot Thurmond in all three of them by huge margins ( .50.0 to .39.2, .550 to .39.8, and how about the '67 Finals, in which he outshot Thurmond by a staggering .56.0 to .34.3 margin.)

Walt Bellamy shot .54.1 in the '68 regular season. Against Wilt in the playoffs... .42.1.

Then there was Kareem. In Kareem's '71 season, he shot .577 against the league. In 5 H2H regular-season games against Wilt, he shot .43.8. In the playoffs, in five more H2H's, he shot .48.1. In the '72 WCF's, Kareem, who had shot .57.4 against the NBA in the regular season, could only shoot .45.7 against Wilt, and only .41.4 in the last four games of that series. And, in Wilt's LAST season, the two met six times in the regular season. In a season in which Kareem shot .55.4, Wilt held him to .45.0 shooting (while Wilt, himself, shot an eye-popping .73.7 against Kareem.)

BTW, in their two "clinching" H2h games in the '71 and '72 WCF's, Wilt outshot Kareem by a combined 18-33 to 23-60, or .54.5 to .38.3.

Incidentally, Wilt played in 29 post-season series in career. I could only find TWO in which his opposing center shot over 50% against him. One was Zelmo Beaty shooting .52.1 against him in the '64 playoffs (in a series in which Wilt outscored him, per game, 38.6 to 14.3 ppg, and outshot him, .55.9 to .52.1.) And in the other, in the '72 Finals, Jerry Lucas, who shot an even .50.0 against Wilt (Chamberlain averaged 19 ppg on .60.0 shooting against him.) Furthermore, Lucas started out that series going 11 for his first 12. He shot 35-80 in the rest (.43.8), which in itself was impressive, given the fact that Lucas was firing away from as far as 25 ft.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt didn't want to be a power player. However he didn't have the lower body that Shaq had though. Wilt could be thrown off balance more easily.

Here is a great video. Wilt block party. This is when the 1972 Lakers won their 33rd straight game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPyGdO9BVsY

Poor Bellamy!

Another thing that should be remembered, but is all but forgotten whenever a discussion of Wilt Chamberlain offense is brought up is the fact Wilt faced much greater defensive pressure than players do today. Opponents were literally allowed to mug Chamberlain at will without getting a foul called on them, yet Wilt still dominated.



As Al Attles, one of Wilt’s teammates once put it:


"I would talk to Wilt about all the players pounding on him. Sometimes, he said he didn't notice it--he was so strong. But I also believe that there were two sets of rules.

By that, I mean because Wilt was so strong, the officials let the man guarding him get away with more--almost trying to equalize the game. I also believe that Wilt just took it because he didn't want to get thrown out, and because it had always been like that with him.

But I'd watch it and I'd get mad. It takes me a while to get my temper going, but when it does--lookout. I'd see what the other players were doing to Wilt and what the officials were allowing, and I'd get more upset than if it were happening to me.

So I jumped in there. It wasn't that Wilt couldn't defend himself. If he ever got really hot, he'd kill people, so he let things pass. But I didn't have to worry about that. I was strong for my size, but I was not about to do anything like the kind of damage Wilt would."

[Source: Al Attles, “Tall Tales” (by Terry Pluto) p. 242]



In fact, Chamberlain was so brutally treated by defences that many feared he would retire after his first year, as he had hinted at just that after the year was over. He stated he feared that if he played another season he might be forced to retaliate and that he didn’t want to do that.

Thankfully he was able to control his emotions and gave fans throughout the years some of the greatest entertainment one could imagine. It would have been a true shame if he would have retired after only his rookie season.

Most amazing about all this is that in his great and lengthy 14-year career, he never once fouled out of a game. I mean, just imagine what that must have taken in terms of control. Despite all of the rough treatment by opposing defences, he was able to control himself enough to never receive enough fouls to be tossed from a game.

I believe he’s the only player in NBA history with any significant playing time to ever accomplish that feat, which is one of his greatest.

[light]

Wilt actually was a defensive juggernaut and many players of his era and coaches have backed that statement up.


And the stats back it up as well as nobody ever outrebounded Wilt in a playoff series


Plus

Wilt's post-season FG% allowed vs centers

59-60:

Kerr regular season FG% against the league: .39.2 Kerr against Wilt in the playoffs: .29.4

Dierking regular season FG%: .36.5 Dierking vs Wilt in the post-season: .33.3

Russell regular season: .46.7 Russell vs. Wilt in the post-season: .44.6

60-61:

Kerr regular season: .39.7 Kerr vs Wilt: .32.1

Halbrook regular season: .33.5 Halbrook vs Wilt: .38.7

61-62:

Kerr regular season: .44.3 Kerr vs. Wilt: .37.6

Russell regular season: .45.7 Russell vs Wilt: .39.9

63-64:

Beaty regular season: .44.4 Beaty vs. Wilt: .52.0

Russell regular season: .43.3 Russell vs. Wilt: .38.6

64-65:

Embry regular season: .45.6 Embry vs Wilt .43.8

Russell regular season: .43.8 Russell vs. Wilt 44.6

65-66:

Russell regular season: .41.5 Russell vs. Wilt: .42.4

66-67:

Dierking regular season: .39.9 Dierking vs Wilt: .42.7

Russell regular season: .45.4 Russell vs. Wilt: .35.8

Thurmond regular season: .43.7 Thurmond vs. Wilt: .34.3

67-68:

Bellamy regular season: .54.1 Bellamy vs. Wilt: .42.1

Russell regular season: .42.5 Russell vs. Wilt: .44.0

68-69:

Thurmond regular season: .41.0 Thurmond vs Wilt: .39.2

Beaty regular season: .47.0 Beaty vs. Wilt: .38.3

Russell regular season: .43.3 Russell vs. Wilt: .39.7

69-70:

Walk regular season: .47.0 Walk vs Wilt: .39.5

Fox regular season: .52.4 Fox vs Wilt: .36.2

Bellamy regular season: .52.3 Bellamy vs Wilt: .45.6

Reed regular season: .50.7 Reed vs Wilt: .48.3

70-71:

Boerwinkle regular season: .48.5 Boerwinkle vs Wilt: .46.3

Fox regular season: .45.8 Fox vs Wilt: .43.4

Kareem regular season: .57.7 Kareem vs Wilt: .48.1

71-72:

Ray regular season: .49.9 Ray vs Wilt: .52.9

Kareem regular season: .57.4 Kareem vs Wilt: .45.7

Lucas regular season: .51.2 Lucas vs Wilt: .50.0

72-73:

Awtry regular season: .48.0 Awtry vs Wilt: .54.2

Thurmond regular season: .44.6 Thurmond vs Wilt: .37.3

Reed regular season: .47.4 Reed vs Wilt: .49.3



And to add during Wilt's last 7 seasons after his scoring seasons, he would lead all players in playoff defensive win shares 5 out of 7 times during his non-scoring title seasons and two of those came with Russell still in the Nba at the time.

And if blocks were tracked for Wilt he would also more then likely have the most blocks ever in the playoffs and triple-doubles In 81 known playoff games of recorded block shots. Wilt blocked a total of 590 shots, as a result, Wilt averaged 7.3 blocks per game in the playoffs.

Tim Duncan has the most at 568 blocks and he played 251 playoffs games to Wilt's 160 and Wilt in less than 170 games at 81 games has more blocks then Tim Duncan.

it's possible that Wilt might have got 1000 blocks in the playoffs which is just ridiculous to think about. Chamberlain blocked about 7-8 BPG in his '72 season (in the known games, which were around 60 I believe.) And, in something like the known 50 games of Wilt's LAST season, in '73, Wilt was around 6 bpg.

Wilt was only referred to as a "defensive juggernaut" later by people that look at numbers and didnt watch him play.

His reputation at the time was that he rarely applied himself on defense. Sometimes he did not bother to contest shots from someone who is shooting a foot in front of him. He just did not have the drive or desire to maintain any kind of defensive intensity.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt was only referred to as a "defensive juggernaut" later by people that look at numbers and didnt watch him play.

His reputation at the time was that he rarely applied himself on defense. Sometimes he did not bother to contest shots from someone who is shooting a foot in front of him. He just did not have the drive or desire to maintain any kind of defensive intensity.


That was not his reputation at the time and for the record, you are flat out lying when you are saying that the greatest shot blocker and rim protector of all time did not have the drive or desire to maintain any kind of defensive intensity.




As for one he owns countless defensive records in both the playoffs and regular season and I can list them for you if you want me to.


And two the 1968 76ers were the only team besides the Celtics to have the top defensive rating as a team mainly due to how incredible Wilt was defensively that entire season and he won his third straight MVP for it as a result.


And lastly, the 1969 Lakers also had the best playoff defence for that entire playoffs out of any team including Russell's Celtics and who was responsible for that number 1 rating well it was Wilt Chamberlain.

[Psileas]

Sorry, but Wilt's teams were not faring better when he was shooting less. You're mixing up seasons with good rosters, chemistry and coaching with seasons with bad ones, but when you look at things season by season, a different picture is painted, especially in his high scoring seasons. Indeed, we can see that in the 1959-66 period, Wilt's teams almost invariably fare better when he takes a lot of shots, not when he holds back, with the only time it seemingly didn't matter much being the half season he played for the Sixers in '65.
Also, look at this excellent find in the last post here:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2035434&start=40
People think early Wilt was getting the ball tons of times, in almost every possession, and that the whole offense was built around him, like 2000 Shaq, but constantly ignore that teams weren't functioning the same way back then. Offenses weren't built around one specific player to the degree latter teams were and it was even harder for a big man to get lots of touches by generic plays, not stuff like offensive rebounding. So, offensive impact by a non ball-dominant+non small guy, was always understated. If anything, Wilt should be getting the ball even more than he was, because a lot more often good things were happening when this happened instead of having old Paul Arizin taking 25 shots and Guy Rodgers bricking one mid/long range shot after the other.
If you honestly think Wilt's teams were bettter when he wasn't shooting much, you should as well stop criticizing him when he was taking less shots in specific crucial games for which he's blamed for underachieving and praise him instead.

[rawimpact]

Can't compare Wilt's defense to modern centers like shaq because of changes in athleticism and rules.

I mean clearly wilt camped out in the paint -- no one can hold that against him because that's where he was most effective on offense and defense. But modern rules wont allow it obviously.

Those guards laying up those shots are grossly unathletic compared to modern players.

[iamgine]

Another thing that should be remembered, but is all but forgotten whenever a discussion of Wilt Chamberlain offense is brought up is the fact Wilt faced much greater defensive pressure than players do today. Opponents were literally allowed to mug Chamberlain at will without getting a foul called on them, yet Wilt still dominated.



As Al Attles, one of Wilt’s teammates once put it:


"I would talk to Wilt about all the players pounding on him. Sometimes, he said he didn't notice it--he was so strong. But I also believe that there were two sets of rules.

By that, I mean because Wilt was so strong, the officials let the man guarding him get away with more--almost trying to equalize the game. I also believe that Wilt just took it because he didn't want to get thrown out, and because it had always been like that with him.

But I'd watch it and I'd get mad. It takes me a while to get my temper going, but when it does--lookout. I'd see what the other players were doing to Wilt and what the officials were allowing, and I'd get more upset than if it were happening to me.

So I jumped in there. It wasn't that Wilt couldn't defend himself. If he ever got really hot, he'd kill people, so he let things pass. But I didn't have to worry about that. I was strong for my size, but I was not about to do anything like the kind of damage Wilt would."

[Source: Al Attles, “Tall Tales” (by Terry Pluto) p. 242]



In fact, Chamberlain was so brutally treated by defences that many feared he would retire after his first year, as he had hinted at just that after the year was over. He stated he feared that if he played another season he might be forced to retaliate and that he didn’t want to do that.

Thankfully he was able to control his emotions and gave fans throughout the years some of the greatest entertainment one could imagine. It would have been a true shame if he would have retired after only his rookie season.

Most amazing about all this is that in his great and lengthy 14-year career, he never once fouled out of a game. I mean, just imagine what that must have taken in terms of control. Despite all of the rough treatment by opposing defences, he was able to control himself enough to never receive enough fouls to be tossed from a game.

I believe he’s the only player in NBA history with any significant playing time to ever accomplish that feat, which is one of his greatest.

Is there any footage or is this another myth?

[dankok8]

The reason this idea doesn't work is that Wilt was obsessed with scoring and didnt care about defense. To think of him as defensive first is to completely misunderstand not only Chamberlain himself but also how people viewed him and enjoyed/hated him.

It was difficult to get Wilt to play defense. He did not always apply himself. It was said that the only coach he played defense for was Alex Hannum (Sixers coach).

He was a scoring machine first and foremost and the preoccupation with his coaches was in trying to get him to pass more. He was a lot like Michael Jordan in that way.

The defense may have improved coincidentally simply because of his size and athleticism - and rebounding - not because he focused on being a great defender. He actually didn't care.

"Defensive juggernaut" cannot be used to describe Wilt at all. In fact that would make players from his era laugh.

You're confusing how Wilt played vs. what his strengths were. My post is primarily based on the increasing amount of footage available and his impact stats. Wilt barely moved the needle on offense but was extremely impactful on team defense.

Note that I'm not saying Wilt wasn't an offense-first player. He obviously was for much of his prime career i.e. first seven years but I'm saying that isn't his strength. His biggest strength was on the defensive end where his shotblocking and superfast recoveries to bother shots completely changed the game. Especially in an era where most shots were taken within 15 feet of the basket. Having a defensive dynamo big completely changed the game more than anything else could.

Was Wilt misused? Absolutely. I think if Wilt was played like he was in 1967 from the start of his career he would have retired with more than 2 titles.

[dankok8]

Sorry, but Wilt's teams were not faring better when he was shooting less. You're mixing up seasons with good rosters, chemistry and coaching with seasons with bad ones, but when you look at things season by season, a different picture is painted, especially in his high scoring seasons. Indeed, we can see that in the 1959-66 period, Wilt's teams almost invariably fare better when he takes a lot of shots, not when he holds back, with the only time it seemingly didn't matter much being the half season he played for the Sixers in '65.
Also, look at this excellent find in the last post here:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2035434&start=40
People think early Wilt was getting the ball tons of times, in almost every possession, and that the whole offense was built around him, like 2000 Shaq, but constantly ignore that teams weren't functioning the same way back then. Offenses weren't built around one specific player to the degree latter teams were and it was even harder for a big man to get lots of touches by generic plays, not stuff like offensive rebounding. So, offensive impact by a non ball-dominant+non small guy, was always understated. If anything, Wilt should be getting the ball even more than he was, because a lot more often good things were happening when this happened instead of having old Paul Arizin taking 25 shots and Guy Rodgers bricking one mid/long range shot after the other.
If you honestly think Wilt's teams were bettter when he wasn't shooting much, you should as well stop criticizing him when he was taking less shots in specific crucial games for which he's blamed for underachieving and praise him instead.

You missed my post where I said I don't criticize Wilt nearly as much for taking fewer shots in those crucial games. Wilt's role from 1967 onwards wasn't to be his team's primary scorer.

[Horatio33]

The Wilt Chamberlain Excuses Essays are out in full force.

[coastalmarker99]

Sorry, but Wilt's teams were not faring better when he was shooting less. You're mixing up seasons with good rosters, chemistry and coaching with seasons with bad ones, but when you look at things season by season, a different picture is painted, especially in his high scoring seasons. Indeed, we can see that in the 1959-66 period, Wilt's teams almost invariably fare better when he takes a lot of shots, not when he holds back, with the only time it seemingly didn't matter much being the half season he played for the Sixers in '65.
Also, look at this excellent find in the last post here:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2035434&start=40
People think early Wilt was getting the ball tons of times, in almost every possession, and that the whole offence was built around him, like 2000 Shaq, but constantly ignore that teams weren't functioning the same way back then. Offences weren't built around one specific player to the degree latter teams were and it was even harder for a big man to get lots of touches by generic plays, not stuff like offensive rebounding. So, offensive impact by a non-ball-dominant+non small guy was always understated. If anything, Wilt should be getting the ball even more than he was, because a lot more often good things were happening when this happened instead of having old Paul Arizin taking 25 shots and Guy Rodgers bricking one mid/long-range shot after the other.
If you honestly think Wilt's teams were better when he wasn't shooting much, you should as well stop criticizing him when he was taking fewer shots in specific crucial games for which he's blamed for underachieving and praise him instead.



It can be easily argued that that Wilt allowing himself to become a role player on offence from 1969 to 1973 hurt him and the Lakers and I love Wilt, but I think his reluctance to shoot really hurt the Lakers in the 1973 Finals. He averaged 8.4 FGA & 11.6 pts and watched McMillian shoot (not well at 39%) 21 times per game.

If Wilt takes a couple of more shots and averages 15 to 18 points a game in the finals the Lakers likely win the title in 1973 with Wilt getting the finals MVP. He showed that in game 5 of that series that he could still bring it on offence despite the fact that he was 36 years old at that point with one bad knee.

Also in 1969 Wilt should have taken more shots in the 1969 finals instead of Baylor who was puking all over the floor in the finals shooting 40 per cent and playing horrible defence. If he had shot more and is more selfish instead of being passive like LeBron was in the 2011 finals the Lakers win the title in 5 or 4 games despite Bvk being a horrible coach in the finals that year.


We see in 1970 through the first nine games of that season before Wilt's knee injury that Wilt was still a monster offensively leading the league in scoring and efficiency and he was going to have a serious case to be the MVP that year if he never got hurt. It is clear to me that Wilt should have made himself the lakers first option sooner with West being made into his second fiddle on offence as the Lakers and Wilt would have been far better for it.

Therefore if Wilt was more selfish scoring-wise with the Lakers instead of copying Russell and being even more passive then him on offence, instead of playing the, I don't shoot. But still, when I do, I shoot 70% from the field and taking 0 to 6 shots in crucial games that the Lakers lost and instead imposed his will offensively instead of being a role player on offence from 1968 to 1973.

There is a higher chance the Lakers win the title in 1969 and 1970 and 1973 which. Gives Wilt 5 rings and three finals MVPs in 1970 1972 and 1973 plus a finals record of 5 and 2. And a career scoring average of 34 to 37 points a game and 36,000 to 40,000 points for his career along with 10 to 11 scoring titles which is just rediculous when you really think about it.

[dankok8]

It can be easily argued that that Wilt allowing himself to become a role player on offence from 1969 to 1973 hurt him and the Lakers and I love Wilt, but I think his reluctance to shoot really hurt the Lakers in the 1973 Finals. He averaged 8.4 FGA & 11.6 pts and watched McMillian shoot (not well at 39%) 21 times per game.

If Wilt takes a couple of more shots and averages 15 to 18 points a game in the finals the Lakers likely win the title in 1973 with Wilt getting the finals MVP. He showed that in game 5 of that series that he could still bring it on offence despite the fact that he was 36 years old at that point with one bad knee.

Also in 1969 Wilt should have taken more shots in the 1969 finals instead of Baylor who was puking all over the floor in the finals shooting 40 per cent and playing horrible defence. If he had shot more and is more selfish instead of being passive like LeBron was in the 2011 finals the Lakers win the title in 5 or 4 games despite Bvk being a horrible coach in the finals that year.


We see in 1970 through the first nine games of that season before Wilt's knee injury that Wilt was still a monster offensively leading the league in scoring and efficiency and he was going to have a serious case to be the MVP that year if he never got hurt. It is clear to me that Wilt should have made himself the lakers first option sooner with West being made into his second fiddle on offence as the Lakers and Wilt would have been far better for it.

Therefore if Wilt was more selfish scoring-wise with the Lakers instead of copying Russell and being even more passive then him on offence, instead of playing the, I don't shoot. But still, when I do, I shoot 70% from the field and taking 0 to 6 shots in crucial games that the Lakers lost and instead imposed his will offensively instead of being a role player on offence from 1968 to 1973.

There is a higher chance the Lakers win the title in 1969 and 1970 and 1973 which. Gives Wilt 5 rings and three finals MVPs in 1970 1972 and 1973 plus a finals record of 5 and 2. And a career scoring average of 34 to 37 points a game and 36,000 to 40,000 points for his career along with 10 to 11 scoring titles which is just rediculous when you really think about it.

You are acting like Wilt was a better offensive player than West. I don't think he really was especially by the late 60's. Wilt completely lost his shooting touch so his fadeaway was defunct at that point and I'm not convinced it was ever that effective. He didn't want to play bully ball and from the footage he didn't seem like he had the footwork or lower body strength to have that kind of impact there like Shaq did. He also couldn't make free throws if he got fouled. In fact he's notably worse from the line than Shaq was. At the end of the day my stance is supported by his low TS% in the playoffs and lack of offensive impact. His offense simply didn't move the needle much on his teams. Warriors, Sixers and Lakers barely changed on offense when Wilt came and left. In the playoffs good defenders like Russell and later Thurmond, Unseld, Kareem etc. were able to take away overhead catches, offensive rebounds and fast break dunks. From the footage, Wilt didn't seem to have much going for him on offense except those. That's why I made a David Robinson parallel although Wilt had some Moses Malone in him as well with his super high motor for grabbing rebounds. He was definitely harder to keep off the glass compared to Robinson. And from footage in the 1964 and 1965 match-ups against Russell, Wilt mostly hurt him by grabbing offensive rebounds. When he's very close to the basket there was little Russell could do. But apart from that, Russell didn't give him much. Even Wilt himself realized it and started shooting less against Russell.

I think prime Wilt's role averaging low 20's in ppg on high efficiency taking only great shots from overhead passes and offensive rebounds where he was a major threat and then focusing most of his energy on defense is the best way to use Wilt. At his ideal best he was probably Russell on steroids which might sound like an insult to Wilt fans but it's actually a hell of a compliment considering Russell was arguably the most valuable player in NBA history. With the Lakers ~15 ppg was perfectly fine as West and Baylor/Goodrich were there to carry the offense. Wilt added them major value on defense.