When does KD surpass Bird?

[StrongLurk]

Most people have Bird in the back end of the top 10...but to be honest I think the talent/skill level between him and Durant is pretty much negligent. Yeah, Bird's legacy is better than Durant's but when comparing on-court abilities/production, they are definitely on the same "tier" of player.

Yes, Durant has won his chips on super stacked teams...but Bird was on stacked teams as well for his era. I feel that Durant is underrated SOLELY due to Lebron and the shadow he casts over the NBA. People try to CRITICIZE Durant for not being better than the second best player ever...like what? But really, looking at Durant's prime/peak, he really has no weaknesses on the court. Playmaking/passing was always his weakness coming into the league but Durant's averaged 5.3 assists since 2014 along with his usual 28-30ppg...that's the same level of scoring/playmaking as Kobe.

When looking at playoff performances, Bird actually had plenty of underperforming playoff runs, especially with scoring the ball. In my opinion, if Durant has a few more elite playoff runs, or even just ONE MORE elite Finals appearance where he puts up another 32/8/6 on 65+ TS%, I will DEFINITELY Rank him as good or even better than Bird. Durant is already one of the best finals players ever, but he probably needs another appearance to solidify it.

[SlickRick]

Bruh KD is trash stop trying to push the narrative that he deserves to be thought of as a Legend when hes not. The only ring Durant has was by joining the team that beat him the year before.

[Uncle Drew]

Long answer: never.
Short answer: never.

[dankok8]

Bird is quite comfortably the better basketball player but you can make a case based on longevity.

[72-10]

not at this rate

[Bronbron23]

Most people have Bird in the back end of the top 10...but to be honest I think the talent/skill level between him and Durant is pretty much negligent. Yeah, Bird's legacy is better than Durant's but when comparing on-court abilities/production, they are definitely on the same "tier" of player.

Yes, Durant has won his chips on super stacked teams...but Bird was on stacked teams as well for his era. I feel that Durant is underrated SOLELY due to Lebron and the shadow he casts over the NBA. People try to CRITICIZE Durant for not being better than the second best player ever...like what? But really, looking at Durant's prime/peak, he really has no weaknesses on the court. Playmaking/passing was always his weakness coming into the league but Durant's averaged 5.3 assists since 2014 along with his usual 28-30ppg...that's the same level of scoring/playmaking as Kobe.

When looking at playoff performances, Bird actually had plenty of underperforming playoff runs, especially with scoring the ball. In my opinion, if Durant has a few more elite playoff runs, or even just ONE MORE elite Finals appearance where he puts up another 32/8/6 on 65+ TS%, I will DEFINITELY Rank him as good or even better than Bird. Durant is already one of the best finals players ever, but he probably needs another appearance to solidify it.

Never

[Tobio-Star]

If we neglect legacy and only consider players' abilities when comparing them then LeBron is wayyyy better than Jordan.

[dankok8]

If we neglect legacy and only consider players' abilities when comparing them then LeBron is wayyyy better than Jordan.

It's actually the opposite. With longevity and accomplishments you can and will be able to make a case for Lebron but Jordan is objectively the better basketball player.

[Tobio-Star]

It's actually the opposite. With longevity and accomplishments you can and will be able to make a case for Lebron but Jordan is objectively the better basketball player.

How? LeBron is way more athletic, has way better vision, shoots better from 3, is taller, faster... If you dont consider Jordan's legacy he is nothing next to LeBron

[Gudo]

How? LeBron is way more athletic, has way better vision, shoots better from 3, is taller, faster... If you dont consider Jordan's legacy he is nothing next to LeBron

Nothing next to lebron lol.

[StrongLurk]

Playoff Career (primes only):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM. .204 WS/28

They are very close as players, but KD has been one of the best finals performers of all time so far.

All these posters saying KD isn't close to Bird and can never surpass simply hate KD lol.

[Bronbron23]

How? LeBron is way more athletic, has way better vision, shoots better from 3, is taller, faster... If you dont consider Jordan's legacy he is nothing next to LeBron

You must not of seen mj play because lebron isn't more athletic. Lebron is stronger but that's it. There's much more to Athleticism than just strength and i don't know where this misconception of bron being faster comes from. If were talking a dead sprint then it's close and we really don't know. Mj was clocked at 4.3 and i'm sure bron is right around that. When it comes to basketball related movements though mj is significantly quicker. Quicker lateral movement, first step and way quicker hops.

When it comes to hops mj is also way more versatile as elite off one and 2. He also has way more body control.

[72-10]

Kevin has almost as much skill though. He's really mastered the pull-up shots in transition offense better than just about anybody I've seen play, and I'd imagine that his unusual arm length helps him to stand out in this regard, although the separation is usually already there in the play. And it's surprising since he kinda shoots them on a line drive, but it's not that surprising that they drop because he has that extra bit of arm extension.

[SouBeachTalents]

Durant's career outside the 3 years on the Warriors would never warrant a legitimate discussion of him surpassing Bird, who while yes won on extremely stacked team was unquestionably the most valuable/impactful player on his team. The Warriors went something like 29-1 in games Durant missed & Curry played, that would never happen without Bird on the Celtics

[InnerZen]

KD is like two tiers below Bird stop it

[Axe]

If we neglect legacy and only consider players' abilities when comparing them then LeBron is wayyyy better than Jordan.
If you think he was already wayyyy better then why feel the need to mention baldan in this thread? :confusedshrug:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career_p.html

Kawhi or Durant with a finals run this season can move into the top 10 career playoff VORP. Both are on pace to easily move ahead of Bird by the end of their careers. The three greatest small forwards ever are playing right now and they are all in their prime (kawhi, Durant, lebron). Anybody who disagrees is most likely an idiot or living in the past.

[DoctorP]

When does KD surpass Bird? Probably never.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career_p.html

Kawhi or Durant with a finals run this season can move into the top 10 career playoff VORP. Both are on pace to easily move ahead of Bird by the end of their careers. The three greatest small forwards ever are playing right now and they are all in their prime (kawhi, Durant, lebron). Anybody who disagrees is most likely an idiot or living in the past.
Nah, Durant's Warrior rings and Kawhi's role player first one don't match up with Bird's. Plus, he has more MVP's than the two of them combined

[Axe]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career_p.html

Kawhi or Durant with a finals run this season can move into the top 10 career playoff VORP. Both are on pace to easily move ahead of Bird by the end of their careers. The three greatest small forwards ever are playing right now and they are all in their prime (kawhi, Durant, lebron). Anybody who disagrees is most likely an idiot or living in the past.
Aand...

We're sorry to bring you the news that the clippers won't even make the finals this year with ty lue as head coach.

End scene

[DoctorP]

Aand...

We're sorry to bring you the news that the clippers won't even make the finals this year with ty lue as head coach.

End scene

:lol

Okay? 😸

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Nah, Durant's Warrior rings and Kawhi's role player first one don't match up with Bird's. Plus, he has more MVP's than the two of them combined

Stats are stats and what you said is just false narrative. You would fall into the idiot category that I mentioned.

Kawhi's role was to average 24PPG on 69% FG and beat Lebron for 3 straight games, all while Duncan averages 12PPG. That was their roles.

Kawhi win share per 48 in his first ring: 19.1%
Bird win share per 48 in his first ring: 19.8%

If Bird was that much better, he should of distanced himself more then a whopping .7%

[Tobio-Star]

You must not of seen mj play because lebron isn't more athletic. Lebron is stronger but that's it. There's much more to Athleticism than just strength and i don't know where this misconception of bron being faster comes from. If were talking a dead sprint then it's close and we really don't know. Mj was clocked at 4.3 and i'm sure bron is right around that. When it comes to basketball related movements though mj is significantly quicker. Quicker lateral movement, first step and way quicker hops.

When it comes to hops mj is also way more versatile as elite off one and 2. He also has way more body control.

Thanks for all the "science" but the eye test never disappoints for this. LeBron is not only stronger but also faster plus all the things I mentioned in my 2nd post. The only thing Jordan is better at is shooting midrange and defending but we could easily make a case for LeBron in the latter since he rarely really tried defensively apart from last yr and 2013

[SouBeachTalents]

Stats are stats and what you said is just false narrative. You would fall into the idiot category that I mentioned.

Kawhi's role was to average 24PPG on 69% FG and beat Lebron for 3 straight games, all while Duncan averages 12PPG. That was their roles.

Kawhi win share per 48 in his first ring: 19.1%
Bird win share per 48 in his first ring: 19.8%

If Bird was that much better, he should of distanced himself more then a whopping .7%
It goes well beyond WS per 48

1981 Bird: 21.8 PER, 3.1 WS, 7.7 BPM, 1.8 VORP
2014 Kawhi: 18.7 PER, 2.9 WS, 4.7 BPM, 1.3 VORP

Bird also averaged more points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks per game, literally better across the board

[Axe]

Stats are stats and what you said is just false narrative. You would fall into the idiot category that I mentioned.

Kawhi's role was to average 24PPG on 69% FG and beat Lebron for 3 straight games, all while Duncan averages 12PPG. That was their roles.

Kawhi win share per 48 in his first ring: 19.1%
Bird win share per 48 in his first ring: 19.8%

If Bird was that much better, he should of distanced himself more then a whopping .7%
Umm which stats are ya talking about? Like scoring 14 points in a 6/22 shooting during a decisive game seven?

[AussieSteve]

KD doesn't ever surpass Bird because he's not as good as Bird. I don't care if he ends up with more rings.

[SATAN]

It goes well beyond WS per 48

1981 Bird: 21.8 PER, 3.1 WS, 7.7 BPM, 1.8 VORP
2014 Kawhi: 18.7 PER, 2.9 WS, 4.7 BPM, 1.3 VORP

Bird also averaged more points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks per game, literally better across the board

Interesting.

[Sulico]

Larry Bird was 3 times MVP. He was best player in the league in that period.

He was leader and driving force behind 3 Championships.

Kevin Durant is 1 time MVP, never was best player in the league, and he was one of the leaders during his championships.

Kevin Durant is not on the same tier of greatness, and he didn't influence his era nearly as much.

[aj1987]

Larry Bird was 3 times MVP. He was best player in the league in that period.

He was leader and driving force behind 3 Championships.

Kevin Durant is 1 time MVP, never was best player in the league, and he was one of the leaders during his championships.

Kevin Durant is not on the same tier of greatness, and he didn't influence his era nearly as much.

Larry Bird is a top 6-8 GOAT. KD is probably not even top 15. :roll:

[Kiddlovesnets]

He makes a case if he wins title + FMVP, and will surely surpass if he gets MVP + FMVP(which aint likely since the arrival of Harden will make him rest more in regular season). If he wins 2 titles and at least 1 FMVP, then its all but secured.

[StrongLurk]

Anyone gonna respond to these numbers?

Playoff Career (primes only):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

If Durant has another dominant finals run, idk how anyone can act like they aren't on the same "tier" of player.

[Wally450]

Anyone gonna respond to these numbers?

Playoff Career (primes only):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

If Durant has another dominant finals run, idk how anyone can act like they aren't on the same "tier" of player.

He may be in the same tier, but they're on opposite ends of it.

[StrongLurk]

He may be in the same tier, but they're on opposite ends of it.

That may be a fair point, I admitted in the OP that Bird's legacy is better and Durant has played on some ultra stacked teams...BUT to be fair to Durant, he has been the best player on these ultra stacked teams especially in the finals. I mean, we have to take that into account right? How many players in history would be the best player on those Warriors, Thunder, and this Nets team?

I mean, this guy has held his own in multiple finals against Lebron James himself, his direct counterpart.

[Uncle Drew]

He may be in the same tier, but they're on opposite ends of it.

Bird destroyed Jordan, Magic, Erving, Olajuwon and Isiah; Durant would've signed with them.

[bizil]

As of now, Bird still has the edge GOAT wise. BUT to say KD will NEVER pass Bird GOAT wise is a mistake. Because GOAT status is your career resume. It's NOT peak-prime status. Even though peak-prime status is a factor in that. Both are among the top 10 shooter-scorers of all time. By that I mean 50-40-90 sharpshooters who ALSO are alpha dog scorers in general.

But Bird is arguably the best passing AND rebounding SF of all time on top of that. So I'm not gonna argue with anybody who has Bird over KD peak-prime wise. BUT when it comes to GOAT status, we gotta see how KD's career plays out. I have him the #3 GOAT SF behind Bron and Bird. I think KD has done enough to pass Doc by on the GOAT charts. BUT if Doc's ABA shit is counted, then that would be a different story.

[StrongLurk]

As of now, Bird still has the edge GOAT wise. BUT to say KD will NEVER pass Bird GOAT wise is a mistake. Because GOAT status is your career resume. It's NOT peak-prime status. Even though peak-prime status is a factor in that. Both are among the top 10 shooter-scorers of all time. By that I mean 50-40-90 sharpshooters who ALSO are alpha dog scorers in general.

But Bird is arguably the best passing AND rebounding SF of all time on top of that. So I'm not gonna argue with anybody who has Bird over KD peak-prime wise. BUT when it comes to GOAT status, we gotta see how KD's career plays out. I have him the #3 GOAT SF behind Bron and Bird. I think KD has done enough to pass Doc by on the GOAT charts. BUT if Doc's ABA shit is counted, then that would be a different story.

Let's say Durant wins another chip/Finals MVP this year, and he wins against Lebron/Lakers or Kawhi/Clippers and either equalizes or outplays Lebron/Kawhi...I mean I would definitely put him over Bird.

This dude has literally been a walking 32/8/5, 65 TS% in his healthy finals appearances so far and was on his way to another win in 2019 as the best player in the league before getting hurt.

[Real14]

Idk, but when will Lebron surpass Bird tho??

[8Ball]

Idk, but when will Lebron surpass Bird tho??

2013. 8 years ago.

[Real14]

2013. 8 years ago.

so 2 asterisk rings are better than 3 rings?:biggums:

[Airupthere]

2013. 8 years ago.

In short, after the benefit of the collusion. Bird hit the ground running, while Lebron needed to take out competition by teaming up with them.

[Real14]

In short, after the benefit of the collusion. Bird hit the ground running, while Lebron needed to take out competition by teaming up with them.

facts:oldlol:

[dankok8]

Anyone gonna respond to these numbers?

Playoff Career (primes only):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

If Durant has another dominant finals run, idk how anyone can act like they aren't on the same "tier" of player.

Durant's era is way easier to put up big numbers in. Look at what other stars are putting up in recent years.

The current era has a lot of guys putting up legendary numbers. Giannis is putting up prime Shaq numbers. Westbrook is putting up prime Big O numbers. Harden is putting up prime Kobe numbers. Even dudes like Donovan Mitchell and Jamal Murray looked unstoppable last playoffs. That needs to be put into context.

[Axe]

Durant's era is way easier to put up big numbers in. Look at what other stars are putting up in recent years.

The current era has a lot of guys putting up legendary numbers. Giannis is putting up prime Shaq numbers. Westbrook is putting up prime Big O numbers. Harden is putting up prime Kobe numbers. Even dudes like Donovan Mitchell and Jamal Murray looked unstoppable last playoffs. That needs to be put into context.
Yes, while shaq is being bitter about current centers nowadays.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'll repeat it again, without the Warriors years nobody on earth would ever consider this a legitimate comparison. Just because he jumped ship to a 73 win team and won titles under legitimately the easiest circumstances a star player ever has doesn't mean he's suddenly as good as Larry Bird. If he manages to have a sustained run of success with the Nets, maybe we can start to rethink the comparison

[8Ball]

In short, after the benefit of the collusion. Bird hit the ground running, while Lebron needed to take out competition by teaming up with them.

Bird was gifted an all time great team his rookie year.

LeBron winning all the rings in the 80s with Bird's team.

[colts19]

Bird was gifted an all time great team his rookie year.

LeBron winning all the rings in the 80s with Bird's team.

What the hell are you talking about. That team won 29 games the year before Bird.

Tiny was 31 yrs old avg. 14 pts and 8 ast.
Maxwell was 24 avg. 17 pts and 8 rbs
Cowens was 31 avg 14 pts and 8 rbs
Pistol Pete was 32 avg 11 pts 1 ast
Chris Ford was 31 avg 11 pts

Please tell me what was all time great about that team

[Axe]

Bird was gifted an all time great team his rookie year.

LeBron winning all the rings in the 80s with Bird's team.
Lol bird was the reason why the celtics became relevant again during that decade

[mr4speed]

Durant's era is way easier to put up big numbers in. Look at what other stars are putting up in recent years.

The current era has a lot of guys putting up legendary numbers. Giannis is putting up prime Shaq numbers. Westbrook is putting up prime Big O numbers. Harden is putting up prime Kobe numbers. Even dudes like Donovan Mitchell and Jamal Murray looked unstoppable last playoffs. That needs to be put into context.
Excellent post and I could not agree more. Yes the game has changed but also it has been changed to allow for these kind of numbers to attract attention, and that is what makes it difficult to make comparisons. We all gravitate to stats, trying to remain objective but we also have to recognize the era and what is going on. The travelling and carrying and hop steps ( we can go on and on here) have enhanced the players ability to put up bigger numbers.

[8Ball]

What the hell are you talking about. That team won 29 games the year before Bird.

Tiny was 31 yrs old avg. 14 pts and 8 ast.
Maxwell was 24 avg. 17 pts and 8 rbs
Cowens was 31 avg 14 pts and 8 rbs
Pistol Pete was 32 avg 11 pts 1 ast
Chris Ford was 31 avg 11 pts

Please tell me what was all time great about that team


yeah yeah 1 year off. I was being trollish.

The next year he got Kevin McHale and Robert Parish won a chip right away.

Bird admitted himself back then he knew how stacked his team was and how young everyone was.

Give Bron Kevin McHale AND Robert Parish after Bron's rookie season.


Give Jordan Bird's team in the 80s and Jordan would win 6 chips in the 80s.

[Gudo]

The next year he got Kevin McHale and Robert Parish won a chip right away.

Bird admitted himself back then he knew how stacked his team was and how young everyone was.

Then I hope in the same light, jordan haters also learn to understand the circumstances jordan was in during his first few years in chicago. It takes a winning culture for a team to win and stay on top if you do not get lucky with having strong pieces right away.

[8Ball]

I agree.

No hate for Jordan in the 80s. He ran into better teams.

1-9 is for the 3ball trolls that disrespect Scottie Pippen.

[Gudo]

I agree.

No hate for Jordan in the 80s. He ran into better teams.

1-9 is for the 3ball trolls that disrespect Scottie Pippen.

Lol. Yeah, 3ball is in his own world. So many things going on in the nba and he sticks to the same arguments and topics on a daily basis.

[Axe]

Then I hope in the same light, jordan haters also learn to understand the circumstances jordan was in during his first few years in chicago. It takes a winning culture for a team to win and stay on top if you do not get lucky with having strong pieces right away.
Coaches involved as well

[tanibanana]

If he give Nets at least 2-Championship, plus another MVP. Then its a good discussion.
For now, its not even close yet.

[Mr. Woke]

His resume isn't as good as Bird's.

However, he is still a top 15 player of all time IMO.

Nothing shameful about that at all.

[dankok8]

If you start looking at stats and putting KD with Bird how about Harden, Westbrook, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi... These guys the last few seasons have been putting up obscene numbers as well. There's gonna be a whole lot of players better than Bird in a few years at this pace!

You can't ignore how much easier it is to put up numbers the last 5 years compared to any era at least since the merger.

[72-10]

It goes well beyond WS per 48

1981 Bird: 21.8 PER, 3.1 WS, 7.7 BPM, 1.8 VORP
2014 Kawhi: 18.7 PER, 2.9 WS, 4.7 BPM, 1.3 VORP

Bird also averaged more points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks per game, literally better across the board

There are many people who thought Bird was the best player that had played after two seasons. I'm not sure there's even many people who think Durant is one of the best players even by this point in his career.

Bird is as good as or better than Durant in every facet of basketball, except maybe at getting 40.

Scoring: Tied
Defense: Tied
Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird
Passing: Bird
Improving Teammates: Bird
Leadership: Bird
Winning: Bird
Integrity: Bird

[StrongLurk]

There are many people who thought Bird was the best player that had played after two seasons. I'm not sure there's even many people who think Durant is one of the best players even by this point in his career.

Bird is as good as or better than Durant in every facet of basketball, except maybe at getting 40.

Scoring: Tied
Defense: Tied
Shooting: Bird
Rebounding: Bird
Passing: Bird
Improving Teammates: Bird
Leadership: Bird
Winning: Bird
Integrity: Bird

Wow, Bird is NOT tied with KD as a scorer. KD is easily the better scorer in regular season, playoffs, and FOR SURE the finals. Hard to take you seriously on this topic if you have Bird tied with KD on scoring. Also, review the numbers below.

Playoff Career (primes only):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

People are being disingenuous by saying it's been easier to score in Durant's era when the 80's was extremely fast-paced. Only the last few years of Durant's career has scoring become easier.

[DMAVS41]

When he gets better at basketball than Bird and does something truly all-time noteworthy in terms of leading a team.

Probably not going to happen as getting better at his age is unlikely and he's now on another loaded team.

[StrongLurk]

When he gets better at basketball than Bird and does something truly all-time noteworthy in terms of leading a team.

Probably not going to happen as getting better at his age is unlikely and he's now on another loaded team.

You can absolutely make the bolded argument already. I admitted in my OP that KD's legacy won't match Bird's and neither will his leadership..but KD's prime play in the playoffs is just as good as Bird's, and KD has been better than Bird in the finals too. I'm of the opinion the KD is on the same "tier" of player as Bird as far as ability on the court...and KD's career isn't over either. He could keep up averaging 28/7/5 over the next 3-4 years and that will for sure put him over Bird in my opinion.

The numbers below are hard to get more "even" for small forwards.

Playoff Career (primes only):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

[DMAVS41]

You can absolutely make the bolded argument already. I admitted in my OP that KD's legacy won't match Bird's and neither will his leadership..but KD's prime play in the playoffs is just as good as Bird's, and KD has been better than Bird in the finals too. I'm of the opinion the KD is on the same "tier" of player as Bird as far as ability on the court...and KD's career isn't over either. He could keep up averaging 28/7/5 over the next 3-4 years and that will for sure put him over Bird in my opinion.

The numbers below are hard to get more "even" for small forwards.

Playoff Career (primes only):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

I disagree, but of course it is all opinion and depends on how much someone rewards / penalizes players for the era they play in for stats and longevity.

In terms of "tiers"...it would depend on how many players you are including on a given "tier"

I'm just not putting KD even with Bird when I wouldn't even take KD over a guy like Dirk...and definitely not over guys like Duncan or Shaq or Hakeem.

[RRR3]

I disagree, but of course it is all opinion and depends on how much someone rewards / penalizes players for the era they play in for stats and longevity.

In terms of "tiers"...it would depend on how many players you are including on a given "tier"

I'm just not putting KD even with Bird when I wouldn't even take KD over a guy like Dirk...and definitely not over guys like Duncan or Shaq or Hakeem.
Not taking KD over Dirk is nonsense. And will be unanimously seen as such by the time KD’s career is over.

[GOBB]

Bird 6th all time. Durant never passing that.

[Doranku]

Bird (84-86) - 3 MVPs, 3 finals appearances, 2 titles, 2 FMVP
KD (career) - 1 MVP, 3 finals appearances, 2 titles, 2 FMVP

As good as the Snake is, he never dominated the game like Larry Legend did.

[Ghost1]

zero rings for durant if he stayed in okc

probably wouldn't even make the finals after 2012 :lol

[StrongLurk]

I disagree, but of course it is all opinion and depends on how much someone rewards / penalizes players for the era they play in for stats and longevity.

In terms of "tiers"...it would depend on how many players you are including on a given "tier"

I'm just not putting KD even with Bird when I wouldn't even take KD over a guy like Dirk...and definitely not over guys like Duncan or Shaq or Hakeem.

You wouldn't take KD over Dirk? Seriously? I like Dirk as much as the next guy, but you must think the 2010's has been a weak era to think Dirk would've been the second best in this era behind Lebron. Also for me I would take Shaq and Duncan over Bird for sure, maybe Hakeem too.

Idk, I'm just not super high on Bird compared to his top 10 companions.

[StrongLurk]

Bird (84-86) - 3 MVPs, 3 finals appearances, 2 titles, 2 FMVP
KD (career) - 1 MVP, 3 finals appearances, 2 titles, 2 FMVP

As good as the Snake is, he never dominated the game like Larry Legend did.

I value playoffs more. Bird during the regular season, during his PEAK, is better than Durant's regular season peak outside of 2014. But Durant in the playoffs/finals is >= to Bird.

Playoff Career (primes only):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

[DMAVS41]

You wouldn't take KD over Dirk? Seriously? I like Dirk as much as the next guy, but you must think the 2010's has been a weak era to think Dirk would've been the second best in this era behind Lebron. Also for me I would take Shaq and Duncan over Bird for sure, maybe Hakeem too.

Idk, I'm just not super high on Bird compared to his top 10 companions.

Yea, I wouldn't.

Not sure why the surprise, Durant had years of good to great help and didn't accomplish what Dirk did while leading a franchise...and that is simply the zoomed out view. I think what Dirk provided as a basketball player is more beneficial for the playoffs, especially in getting the most of teammates, but if I see Durant do certain things I will of course give him credit and change my view.

To claim that Shaq and Duncan were "for sure" better than Bird at basketball makes me think you didn't watch Bird or that you fail to understand just how good he was. I'd take Duncan over Bird because of longevity, for example, but just how good they were at basketball? Bird was better at his peak in my opinion.

[DMAVS41]

I value playoffs more. Bird during the regular season, during his PEAK, is better than Durant's regular season peak outside of 2014. But Durant in the playoffs/finals is >= to Bird.

Playoff Career (primes only):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

Comparing stats across eras like this is pretty tricky. Obviously you can't boil down a player just to stats...and nobody is denying that Durant is great, but honestly, just going off the stats accounting for the era in which they played...I think Bird's stats are more impressive in the sample you keep posting.

[dankok8]

You wouldn't take KD over Dirk? Seriously? I like Dirk as much as the next guy, but you must think the 2010's has been a weak era to think Dirk would've been the second best in this era behind Lebron. Also for me I would take Shaq and Duncan over Bird for sure, maybe Hakeem too.

Idk, I'm just not super high on Bird compared to his top 10 companions.

It's not the that the 2010's particularly the latter part of the decade are a weak era but they are an offensive era due to high pace, spacing and soft rules. League average TS% is highest in league history and pace is high. It's much easier to pile up offensive stats in the last 5 years than any time post-merger. Conversely it's also harder to defend which is why (defensive) big men have lost a lot of value for instance. I think a guy like Dirk would put up considerably better stats from 2016-2020 than he did from 2006-2010. On the other hand he'd be more of a defensive liability.

[Shooter]

How? LeBron is way more athletic, has way better vision, shoots better from 3, is taller, faster... If you dont consider Jordan's legacy he is nothing next to LeBron

:rockon: Facts are facts

MJ is part of the Nike hype machine. Without David Stern and Nike shoes trying to catapult MJ into something better than he was, he would be nothing compared to LeBron.

[light]

Durant needs to make some all-defensive teams, grow eyes in the back of his head, and become a better leader in order to compete with Bird.

[Run DLC]

A very long time ago. MJ is the only one who has a legit argument over KD. KD is the GOAT.

[StrongLurk]

Again, WHY are people acting like the 80's was some hard-to-score era? It was easier to produce stats compared to the 90s/2000s. In fact, I'd argue it wasn't until the last few years that things caught back up to the 80's as far as speed of the NBA.

Bird's whole prime was in the 80's.

Regular season (prime)
Bird: 792 games, 25/10/6/2/1, 23.9 PER, 56.7 TS%, 7.1 BPM, .210 WS/48
KD: 779 games, 28/7/4/1/1, 26.1 PER, 62.2 TS%, 7.4 BPM, .235 WS/48

Playoff Career (prime):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

I just don't trust anybody who acts like Bird is way ahead of KD. KD has the slight edge in advanced numbers for reg/playoffs and is so far the better finals performer compared to Bird. I think both KD/Bird are the same tier of player, but people just LIKE Bird more than KD.

[DMAVS41]

Again, WHY are people acting like the 80's was some hard-to-score era? It was easier to produce stats compared to the 90s/2000s. In fact, I'd argue it wasn't until the last few years that things caught back up to the 80's as far as speed of the NBA.

Bird's whole prime was in the 80's.

Regular season (prime)
Bird: 792 games, 25/10/6/2/1, 23.9 PER, 56.7 TS%, 7.1 BPM, .210 WS/48
KD: 779 games, 28/7/4/1/1, 26.1 PER, 62.2 TS%, 7.4 BPM, .235 WS/48

Playoff Career (prime):
Bird: 150 games, 24.5/10/6.5/2/1, 21.8 PER, 55.5 TS%, 7.3 BPM, .181 WS/48
KD: 133 games, 29.3/7.7/4.1/1/1, 24.8 PER, 60.1 TS%, 7.2 BPM, .204 WS/28

I just don't trust anybody who acts like Bird is way ahead of KD. KD has the slight edge in advanced numbers for reg/playoffs and is so far the better finals performer compared to Bird. I think both KD/Bird are the same tier of player, but people just LIKE Bird more than KD.

I don't think a fully statistical analysis gets at the true value / impact of a player...certainly not just listing out the stats like your above post as if it is everything there is to say.

I don't know what you mean by "same tier" or what you mean when you say people have Bird "way ahead"...they are both clearly two of the best players of all-time. I think Bird is comfortably in the top 15 all-time (I'd have him higher)...and Durant is comfortably in the top 25 all-time. That is why I asked you how you are defining your tiers.

In my opinion, however, Bird was a better basketball player at his best and I haven't seen KD do anything, to date, that would make me think otherwise. The argument for KD will be more of a career ranking if he can play another 8 years or something, but that isn't what you are arguing.

I could be wrong or biased, but to me, getting to watch Bird...he was better.

You like statistical arguments and analysis...here is a very stat heavy analysis of them as players that doesn't factor in titles or performances in big spots (which I think is a mistake mind you)...etc.

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/05/backpicks-goat-26-kevin-durant/
https://backpicks.com/2018/01/11/backpicks-goat-11-larry-bird/

He moved Durant up to #23 after the 2019 season.

[StrongLurk]

I don't think a fully statistical analysis gets at the true value / impact of a player...certainly not just listing out the stats like your above post as if it is everything there is to say.

I don't know what you mean by "same tier" or what you mean when you say people have Bird "way ahead"...they are both clearly two of the best players of all-time. I think Bird is comfortably in the top 15 all-time (I'd have him higher)...and Durant is comfortably in the top 25 all-time. That is why I asked you how you are defining your tiers.

In my opinion, however, Bird was a better basketball player at his best and I haven't seen KD do anything, to date, that would make me think otherwise. The argument for KD will be more of a career ranking if he can play another 8 years or something, but that isn't what you are arguing.

I could be wrong or biased, but to me, getting to watch Bird...he was better.

You like statistical arguments and analysis...here is a very stat heavy analysis of them as players that doesn't factor in titles or performances in big spots (which I think is a mistake mind you)...etc.

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/05/backpicks-goat-26-kevin-durant/
https://backpicks.com/2018/01/11/backpicks-goat-11-larry-bird/

He moved Durant up to #23 after the 2019 season.

For the past decade, the NBA has absolutely revolved around Lebron. Personally, I have Lebron just barely ahead of Kareem as the second best player ever. However, most people on this board are saying KD is top 15 at best.

What I can't understand is how did the 15th best player absolutely equalize Lebron James (still very much in his prime in 17/18) in two straight finals? Yes KD has a stacked team (so did Lebron in 2017), so I'm not talking about the Warriors beating the Cavs. I'm talking about KD, who I watched for 9 finals games in 17/18, go toe-to-toe with Lebron. I fully understand the optics of the game being easier for KD on the Warriors, but how many players in his place would equalize 17/18 Lebron? I don't think peak Kobe or Bird would do that in Durant's place.

For me, the logic comes down to this: Either Lebron is NOT the second best player of all time and is slightly overrated, OR, KD is better than just "top 15" and is underrated.

Durant 17 finals: 35/8/5/1/2 with only 2.2 turnovers, 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM
Durant 18 finals: 29/11/7.51/2 with only 2.3 turnovers, 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM

Who the **** has finals numbers like that in the modern era besides MJ and Bron?

[Axe]

Kd playing on a stacked team like the warriors surely helped him a lot in garnering those statistics

[StrongLurk]

Kd playing on a stacked team like the warriors surely helped him a lot in garnering those statistics

Who in the top ten of all time DIDNT play on super stacked teams? Hakeem? Maybe MJ?

I understand the Warriors were the most stacked for the 3-point line era, but who in NBA history could replace Durant and equalized Lebron like he did in two straight finals? I don't know if Bird/Kobe could do that.

Durant 17 finals: 35/8/5/1/2 with only 2.2 turnovers, 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM
Durant 18 finals: 29/11/7.51/2 with only 2.3 turnovers, 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM

[DMAVS41]

For the past decade, the NBA has absolutely revolved around Lebron. Personally, I have Lebron just barely ahead of Kareem as the second best player ever. However, most people on this board are saying KD is top 15 at best.

What I can't understand is how did the 15th best player absolutely equalize Lebron James (still very much in his prime in 17/18) in two straight finals? Yes KD has a stacked team (so did Lebron in 2017), so I'm not talking about the Warriors beating the Cavs. I'm talking about KD, who I watched for 9 finals games in 17/18, go toe-to-toe with Lebron. I fully understand the optics of the game being easier for KD on the Warriors, but how many players in his place would equalize 17/18 Lebron? I don't think peak Kobe or Bird would do that in Durant's place.

For me, the logic comes down to this: Either Lebron is NOT the second best player of all time and is slightly overrated, OR, KD is better than just "top 15" and is underrated.

Durant 17 finals: 35/8/5/1/2 with only 2.2 turnovers, 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM
Durant 18 finals: 29/11/7.51/2 with only 2.3 turnovers, 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM

Who the **** has finals numbers like that in the modern era besides MJ and Bron?

I disagree with virtually everything in your post. Kobe or Bird couldn't play great on one of the most loaded teams ever facing a poor defensive team in the Cavs? I'd have to look, but iirc, the Cavs were like 20th on defense in 17 and might have been the worst defense in the league in 18.

So, just to be clear, you are putting a ton of weight on 9 games in which there was a huge margin of error for KD (little to no pressure)...and you admit he's on an all-time loaded team offensively...and you think him torching objectively terrible defense is...something that other all-time great players couldn't do with soft rules? All I can say is...that doesn't hold up.

Also, other people don't for sure have KD as the 2nd best player of this era. Curry would likely get that nod by a lot of people...and if you went almost exclusively off stats (which is what you are pretty much doing)...Chris Paul would have an argument...although I would never make that case, but that is the danger of just using only stats like you are. And pretty soon, especially if they win another title or two and he keeps producing...people are going to start arguing Davis....a 26/11/3 in his prime defensive monster that will have stats as good or better.

And, remember, do not forget just how good those Warriors were. KD went down and they then dominate the Rockets/Blazers by essentially going 6-0 and then give the Raptors everything they can handle. Don't discount the greatness of Curry and the greatness of that Warriors core. They were a championship caliber team even if you just remove KD and don't replace him. Made the game so easy on KD.

[warriorfan]

For the past decade, the NBA has absolutely revolved around Lebron. Personally, I have Lebron just barely ahead of Kareem as the second best player ever. However, most people on this board are saying KD is top 15 at best.

What I can't understand is how did the 15th best player absolutely equalize Lebron James (still very much in his prime in 17/18) in two straight finals? Yes KD has a stacked team (so did Lebron in 2017), so I'm not talking about the Warriors beating the Cavs. I'm talking about KD, who I watched for 9 finals games in 17/18, go toe-to-toe with Lebron. I fully understand the optics of the game being easier for KD on the Warriors, but how many players in his place would equalize 17/18 Lebron? I don't think peak Kobe or Bird would do that in Durant's place.

For me, the logic comes down to this: Either Lebron is NOT the second best player of all time and is slightly overrated, OR, KD is better than just "top 15" and is underrated.

Durant 17 finals: 35/8/5/1/2 with only 2.2 turnovers, 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM
Durant 18 finals: 29/11/7.51/2 with only 2.3 turnovers, 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM

Who the **** has finals numbers like that in the modern era besides MJ and Bron?

KD was playing with Steph Curry. Did you see how many wide open layups and dunks KD got? Basketball isn’t one on one.

[StrongLurk]

KD was playing with Steph Curry. Did you see how many wide open layups and dunks KD got? Basketball isn’t one on one.

We saw the stats fo KD in the 2017 finals. He did not get a ton of wide open layups/dunks.

In fact, KD was 45 of 78 on contested shots (57.7%) in the 2017 finals.

[Axe]

Who in the top ten of all time DIDNT play on super stacked teams? Hakeem? Maybe MJ?

I understand the Warriors were the most stacked for the 3-point line era, but who in NBA history could replace Durant and equalized Lebron like he did in two straight finals? I don't know if Bird/Kobe could do that.

Durant 17 finals: 35/8/5/1/2 with only 2.2 turnovers, 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM
Durant 18 finals: 29/11/7.51/2 with only 2.3 turnovers, 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM
But when he came there, he's had a lot of help there, which basically made his dominance a piece of cake. Don't you think?

[StrongLurk]

I disagree with virtually everything in your post. Kobe or Bird couldn't play great on one of the most loaded teams ever facing a poor defensive team in the Cavs? I'd have to look, but iirc, the Cavs were like 20th on defense in 17 and might have been the worst defense in the league in 18.

So, just to be clear, you are putting a ton of weight on 9 games in which there was a huge margin of error for KD (little to no pressure)...and you admit he's on an all-time loaded team offensively...and you think him torching objectively terrible defense is...something that other all-time great players couldn't do with soft rules? All I can say is...that doesn't hold up.

Also, other people don't for sure have KD as the 2nd best player of this era. Curry would likely get that nod by a lot of people...and if you went almost exclusively off stats (which is what you are pretty much doing)...Chris Paul would have an argument...although I would never make that case, but that is the danger of just using only stats like you are. And pretty soon, especially if they win another title or two and he keeps producing...people are going to start arguing Davis....a 26/11/3 in his prime defensive monster that will have stats as good or better.

And, remember, do not forget just how good those Warriors were. KD went down and they then dominate the Rockets/Blazers by essentially going 6-0 and then give the Raptors everything they can handle. Don't discount the greatness of Curry and the greatness of that Warriors core. They were a championship caliber team even if you just remove KD and don't replace him. Made the game so easy on KD.

KD is without a doubt the second best player of the 10's era. Curry is a solid 3rd but he was 21/5/7 from 2010-2015 and only won the 2015 finals because Love missed the whole finals and Kyrie missed games 2-6. Curry just wasn't good enough the first half of the decade to match KD. Curry couldn't really challenge Lebron at the highest stages.

How many players in KD's place put up the stats below? Go ahead and list them.

Durant 17 finals: 35/8/5/1/2 with only 2.2 turnovers, 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM (KD was 45 of 78 on contested shots (57.7%) in the 2017 finals.)
Durant 18 finals: 29/11/7.5/1/2 with only 2.3 turnovers, 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM


Also, I'll need your respond to this, which is it for you: Either Lebron is NOT the second best player of all time and is slightly overrated, OR, KD is better than just "top 15" and is underrated.

[DMAVS41]

KD is without a doubt the second best player of the 10's era. Curry is a solid 3rd but he was 21/5/7 from 2010-2015 and only won the 2015 finals because Love missed the whole finals and Kyrie missed games 2-6. Curry just wasn't good enough the first half of the decade to match KD. Curry couldn't really challenge Lebron at the highest stages.

How many players in KD's place put up the stats below? Go ahead and list them.

Durant 17 finals: 35/8/5/1/2 with only 2.2 turnovers, 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM (KD was 45 of 78 on contested shots (57.7%) in the 2017 finals.)
Durant 18 finals: 29/11/7.51/2 with only 2.3 turnovers, 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM

Again, I disagree. It is as if you haven't lived in this world with different opinions. For example, the analysis at Back Picks has both Curry and Paul ahead of Durant...and it is a far more in depth analysis than the surface level garbage you are offering here.

How many players could put up unreal stats while playing with the best offensive help ever while facing terrible defenses with no danger of losing? Virtually all the best players ever.

Shit, just for fun...I looked up Dirk's 06 series against the Spurs (an elite defense mind you)...and he did 27/13/3 65% TS, 128 ortg...in a tougher era to play. Your argument is that it isn't possible for a guy like Dirk to put up even better numbers in a smaller sample with way more help against terrible defense?

Yep, when Dirk did 34/12/4 66% TS, 131 ORTG against the Nuggets in 09...with no help in comparison and facing a much better defense...it absolutely means he couldn't put up great stats on the Warriors.

Cool...tell me more.

[StrongLurk]

Again, I disagree. It is as if you haven't lived in this world with different opinions. For example, the analysis at Back Picks has both Curry and Paul ahead of Durant...and it is a far more in depth analysis than the surface level garbage you are offering here.

How many players could put up unreal stats while playing with the best offensive help ever while facing terrible defenses with no danger of losing? Virtually all the best players ever.

I asked you to list them. Go ahead and list them. Who is doing 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM and 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM against Prime Lebron James?

Also you'll need to mention your ranking of Lebron James all time. Based on your posts, there is no way you have him in the top 3 all time.

[DMAVS41]

I asked you to list them. Go ahead and list them. Who is doing 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM and 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM against Prime Lebron James?

Also you'll need to mention your ranking of Lebron James all time. Based on your posts, there is no way you have him in the top 3 all time.

Shit, just for fun...I looked up Dirk's 06 series against the Spurs (an elite defense mind you)...and he did 27/13/3 65% TS, 128 ortg...in a tougher era to play. Your argument is that it isn't possible for a guy like Dirk to put up even better numbers in a smaller sample with way more help against terrible defense?

Yep, when Dirk did 34/12/4 66% TS, 131 ORTG against the Nuggets in 09...with no help in comparison and facing a much better defense...it absolutely means he couldn't put up great stats on the Warriors.

Cool...tell me more.

Again, all of the best players ever. You seem to not know how many unreal series there were against much harder competition with much less help.

You keep saying "against Lebron James"...sorry, but that isn't how this works. He played against a terrible Cavs defense....and that terrible defense focused most of their attention on Steph Curry. Wonder why.

I'd have Lebron top 3.

[tpols]

Dirk is criminally underrated. Looking back at it, I don't think even MJ could lead those josh howard second option teams to damn near 70 wins and a title.

[StrongLurk]

Shit, just for fun...I looked up Dirk's 06 series against the Spurs (an elite defense mind you)...and he did 27/13/3 65% TS, 128 ortg...in a tougher era to play. Your argument is that it isn't possible for a guy like Dirk to put up even better numbers in a smaller sample with way more help against terrible defense?

Yep, when Dirk did 34/12/4 66% TS, 131 ORTG against the Nuggets in 09...with no help in comparison and facing a much better defense...it absolutely means he couldn't put up great stats on the Warriors.

Cool...tell me more.

Again, all of the best players ever. You seem to not know how many unreal series there were against much harder competition with much less help.

You keep saying "against Lebron James"...sorry, but that isn't how this works. He played against a terrible Cavs defense....and that terrible defense focused most of their attention on Steph Curry. Wonder why.

I'd have Lebron top 3.

Okay, so Dirk and "everyone good"...right. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Also, you said the Cavs focused on Curry in those finals, yet KD hit the most contested shots in both the 2017 and 2018 finals and was super efficient on those...so I think they focused a lot of both Curry/KD.

My only real take from your posts is you are a Dirk stan (I like Dirk a lot too but I can't stan any player).

You also must think the post 2010 era is super weak (ironic since Dirk's Mavs won in 2011), since you have Dirk better than anyone not named Lebron James post 2010, yet Dirk was behind Shaq, Duncan and Kobe during his era. I guess you should technically fall into the "Lebron is overrated" camp instead of "Durant is underrated", yet you still have Bron top 3.

I know I'm posting a lot, but I won't be surprised at all if Durant's Nets play the Lakers in the Finals and he equalizes or even outplays both Bron and AD.

[DMAVS41]

Okay, so Dirk and "everyone good"...right. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

My only real take from your posts is you are a Dirk stan (I like Dirk a lot too but I can't stan any player).

You also must think the post 2010 era is super weak (ironic since Dirk's Mavs won in 2011), since you have Dirk better than anyone not named Lebron James post 2010, yet Dirk was behind Shaq, Duncan and Kobe during his era. I guess you should technically fall into the "Lebron is overrated" camp instead of "Durant is underrated", yet you still have Bron top 3.

I know I'm posting a lot, but I won't be surprised at all if Durant's Nets play the Lakers in the Finals and he equalizes or even outplays both Bron and AD.

So when you are given an example...you resort to just not addressing my arguments and ad hominem. Cool, I'll take that as you admitting you didn't know what you were talking about. Charles Barkley could put up those numbers, Malone could, David Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, Baylor, West, Oscar. Anthony Davis, Erving, Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Giannis...Duncan could if he tried to or had to.

Again, most of these guys have done insane things in much more difficult circumstances.

[StrongLurk]

So when you are given an example...you resort to just not addressing my arguments and ad hominem. Cool, I'll take that as you admitting you didn't know what you were talking about. Charles Barkley could put up those numbers, Malone could, David Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, Baylor, West, Oscar. Anthony Davis, Erving, Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Giannis...Duncan could if he tried to or had to.

Again, most of these guys have done insane things in much more difficult circumstances.

Bolded absolutely could not put up those numbers KD did lol. Not nearly good enough scorers/shooters.

Rank these players for me.

Lebron
Dirk
Durant
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Harden
Curry
Kawhi
KG
Wade
Nash
AI
Chris Paul
Tracy McGrady
Carmelo
Paul Pierce
Tony Parker
Anthony Davis
Dwight Howard
Giannis

[Micku]

Kd playing on a stacked team like the warriors surely helped him a lot in garnering those statistics

I think it helped a lot, obviously. You really couldn't guard anyone effectively because they were great offensively. They would rather give up the dunk than a 3pt shot from Curry or Klay. KD got a lot of good looks playing with'em. Any star player efficiency should improve playing with the GSW. And KD play style fits with the GSW perfectly. Plus the rules benefit the perimeter players nowadays.

However, KD had similar stats before in 12. LeBron or Wade couldn't guard him. They never could. Not to say that KD hasn't had bad series tho.

[Hey Yo]

Who in the top ten of all time DIDNT play on super stacked teams? Hakeem? Maybe MJ?

I understand the Warriors were the most stacked for the 3-point line era, but who in NBA history could replace Durant and equalized Lebron like he did in two straight finals? I don't know if Bird/Kobe could do that.

Durant 17 finals: 35/8/5/1/2 with only 2.2 turnovers, 69.8 TS%, 139 ORTG, 14.08 BPM
Durant 18 finals: 29/11/7.51/2 with only 2.3 turnovers, 65.4 TS%, 129 ORTG, 11.38 BPM
In fairness to LeBron, he was playing in his 7th sn 8th straight Finals when he played against KD.

If you include James repping the U.S...... he avg. like 95gms a season in his 8yr Finals run.

No reason whatsoever why James should be condemned for letting KD to get his while still expected to be elite on the offensive side. That's where the defensive anchor comes in, but those Cavs didnt have one.

[Micku]

Bolded absolutely could not put up those numbers KD did lol. Not nearly good enough scorers/shooters.




Whoa, what? Bayor averaged 40.6 pts in the finals before. West averaged 38. Oscar was great. So, of course they could if they had similar situations. They already did it in West and Bayor's case. You could argue it's better, but they didn't win in those performances. In West case, he got the finals mvp even though he lost.

I agree with you that some of the players won't do it, because it's not really their game. They could score a bunch, but they bring other stuff to the table. But definitely would be more efficient. But to dismiss some of the bolded players when already scored more than KD is disrespectful lol! You gott'a put some respeck to their names.

And going up against prime LeBron with the cavs isn't the best opposition. It wasn't like he was the best defensive stopper. KD in 17 was a better defensive player than LeBron was in 17 and 18. And LeBron's best defensive years came in Miami. But it's specific. He's better at shadowing and keeping his footing with smaller guard. But against KD? He could never guard him. But a guy Tony Allen, who is smaller and quicker, could. Hell CP3 did a better job against KD than LeBron did. It's match ups. Especially nowadays.

[Micku]

And in terms of Bird or KD. I think of it like this.

Bird's legacy is better than KD.

I think Bird has a larger impact on the game than KD I think too.

KD is a better scorer than Bird was.

And his career isn't over with. So, if he wins more, then we'll see happens. His passing game improve. He can still score so effortlessly. He doesn't need the ball to be effective. We'll see.

[tpols]

Who in the top ten of all time DIDNT play on super stacked teams? Hakeem? Maybe MJ?

Kobe.

Hakeem won two titles but people never mention him playing with Clyde Drexler. Who is better than Pau. (easily) His first title he didn't have him but he was going H2H with Pat Ewing who also didn't have any true star help. So it was an even battle.

[DMAVS41]

Bolded absolutely could not put up those numbers KD did lol. Not nearly good enough scorers/shooters.

Rank these players for me.

Lebron
Dirk
Durant
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Harden
Curry
Kawhi
KG
Wade
Nash
AI
Chris Paul
Tracy McGrady
Carmelo
Paul Pierce
Tony Parker
Anthony Davis
Dwight Howard
Giannis

Tim Duncan had an entire playoff run of 25/15/5 in one of the toughest defensive eras in NBA history...probably the toughest. His stats for the entire 03 playoff run is more impressive than KD's stats in those finals.

You realize that you are talking about 5 games and then 4 games...right? You understand how crazy things can get in such small samples? You realize stats are more than just scoring...right?

In that 03 run for Duncan...he had a series in which he did 28/17/6/1/3...60%TS, 121 ortg, 99 drtg....again, in a much tougher era for defense and without much in the way of offensive help.

You don't know what you are talking about.

And, no, I'm not taking the time to rank all those players...assume Durant is behind a few guys you'd freak out about.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe.

Hakeem won two titles but people never mention him playing with Clyde Drexler. Who is better than Pau. (easily) His first title he didn't have him but he was going H2H with Pat Ewing who also didn't have any true star help. So it was an even battle.

Lol playing with peak Shaq is enough to say Kobe played on stacked teams. Do you really want to compare older Clyde and Pippen to Shaq?

You know, your responses about Lebron in that other thread make total sense now. You are a Kobe stan.

[tpols]

Lol playing with peak Shaq is enough to say Kobe played on stacked teams. Do you really want to compare older Clyde and Pippen to Shaq?

You know, your responses about Lebron in that other thread make total sense now. You are a Kobe stan.

Kobe won the same amount of titles without Shaq as Hakeem did in his whole career.

Your question was answered correctly.

[RRR3]

Lol playing with peak Shaq is enough to say Kobe played on stacked teams. Do you really want to compare older Clyde and Pippen to Shaq?

You know, your responses about Lebron in that other thread make total sense now. You are a Kobe stan.
There’s no use reasoning with ttrolls. He’s a lost cause. Every time LeBron wins a ring he gets a little more unhinged.

[StrongLurk]

I'll be bumping this thread again when KD equalizes or outplays Lebron or Kawhi in the finals.

I will say though, the Nets are so stacked on offense. KD playing with Curry, Klay, Harden and Kyrie these last few years is absurd. So far, KD's only been stopped by injuries.

[DMAVS41]

I'll be bumping this thread again when KD equalizes or outplays Lebron or Kawhi in the finals.

I will say though, the Nets are so stacked on offense. KD playing with Curry, Klay, Harden and Kyrie these last few years is absurd. So far, KD's only been stopped by injuries.

You can bump it, but it won't mean anything for our conversations. Nobody here, certainly not me, is arguing that KD isn't one of the best players ever and isn't capable of doing what you said.

It is just you are not giving proper respect to other players in history.

[SouBeachTalents]

There are many reasons why it's difficult to take Durant's Warriors numbers at face value. Besides the fact that he joined a 73 win championship core and played with arguably the most talented roster ever, the one that doesn't get nearly the level of attention that it should is how in all those years in OKC, he had one playoff run, just one, out of half a dozen where he even came close to reaching the level of play that he did with Golden State. Just comparing his last few OKC playoff runs to his two title ones

2013: 31 ppg on 57%TS, 3.9 TO's, 112 ORTG
2014: 30 ppg on 57% TS, 3.8 TO's, 110 ORTG
2016: 28 ppg on 54%TS, 3.6 TO's, 107 ORTG

2017: 29 ppg on 68%TS, 2.5 TO's, 129 ORTG
2018: 29 ppg on 61%TS, 2.4 TO's, 119 ORTG

The ppg are similar, but there's a staggering difference in everything else across the board. By all means, if he has Golden State level playoff runs with Brooklyn, even if he's still playing with an unprecedented level of offensive talent lol, that could change my opinion. Until then, imo his true abilities and impact are more closely represented in his OKC days than in his Golden State ones.

[DMAVS41]

There are many reasons why it's difficult to take Durant's Warriors numbers at face value. Besides the fact that he joined a 73 win championship core and played with arguably the most talented roster ever, the one that doesn't get nearly the level of attention that it should is how in all those years in OKC, he had one playoff run, just one, out of half a dozen where he even came close to reaching the level of play that he did with Golden State. Just comparing his last few OKC playoff runs to his two title ones

2013: 31 ppg on 57%TS, 3.9 TO's, 112 ORTG
2014: 30 ppg on 57% TS, 3.8 TO's, 110 ORTG
2016: 28 ppg on 54%TS, 3.6 TO's, 107 ORTG

2017: 29 ppg on 68%TS, 2.5 TO's, 129 ORTG
2018: 29 ppg on 61%TS, 2.4 TO's, 119 ORTG

The ppg are similar, but there's a staggering difference in everything else across the board. By all means, if he has Golden State level playoff runs with Brooklyn, even if he's still playing with an unprecedented level of offensive talent lol, that could change my opinion. Until then, imo his true abilities and impact are more closely represented in his OKC days than in his Golden State ones.

I feel the same way.

He's already cemented as one of the best players ever...I'd like to just know how good he actually was/is...and I don't think we learned much on the Warriors...especially if one were really going into detail on that Rockets series that they likely lose if Paul doesn't go down.

Just sucks he joined the Warriors. Hopefully he does great things on the Nets so, at least for me, I won't view the Warriors stint with such negativity like I do now.