Should Duncan Receive More GOAT Love?

[dankok8]

Won 5 rings behind dominant two-way play.

Duncan doesn't look that imposing statistically but at least half of his impact came on the defensive end where stats simply don't do him justice. Prime Duncan over his best 10-year stretch from 1999-2008 was giving you 24/13/4 on +2 rTS with ridiculous D. When taking the defense into account, that can compare to anyone. Duncan was easily worth 5-6 points per 100 possessions on defense and at his peak probably more.

Not to mention the guy was such a great personality in the locker room. And his supporting casts were weaker than anyone else. Manu and Tony were good players but not even top 50 players all time. He had an older Robinson and a very young pre-prime Kawhi. He had Pop but come on... Compared to other GOATs like Jordan, Kareem, Russell and Lebron he had weaker casts and still won 5 chips. It can't really be denied.

And even from purity standpoint for those who care... He did stay with one small market franchise his whole career.

So why isn't Duncan getting love? Is it because he's boring? That's the only thing I can come up with. I've never made a post about Timmy so I'm not a huge fan of his or something but it occurred to me that he has a GOAT case. He really does.

[8Ball]

Duncan is top 4. Top 5.

Duncan doesn't have a better resume than Bron, Jordan, Kareem.

[Uncle Drew]

I fully understand the point you're trying to make, but I am of the opinion that Duncan is properly rated by those in the know. I do not see him as a top 3 player ever, but he's not on the lower end of the top 10 either. Personally I have him at #4, but if someone would say that they find Bird or Magic better, who am I to say that they are wrong? Duncan is universally seen as the greatest player of his generation and I'd say anywhere between, let's say 4 and 6 is fine.

Perhaps the easiest player to build around as well.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No, he was never a dominant scorer and only averaged over 23PPG in 1 season during his career. Guys like Shaq in his own era averaged over 23PPG in 7 different seasons of his career.

Finals he got lucky and played the 8th seed allan houston knicks in 1999, weak 1st option scorer Jason Kidd nets in 2003. The rest of his finals wins he wasn't even the best player (Manu 05, Parker, 07, Kawhi 2014).

[rmt]

Making the Case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sRSpQ78Y3c


Duncan's ignored GOAT case (9/9):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T8O32cOVIU


For me, no doubt MJ is the GOAT, but Duncan would be my franchise player to build around.

[Uncle Drew]

Making the Case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sRSpQ78Y3c


Duncan's ignored GOAT case (9/9):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T8O32cOVIU


For me, no doubt MJ is the GOAT, but Duncan would be my franchise player to build around.

In theory, Duncan was possibly two plays away from a 5-peat (though I think that is bogus, but hey). That's outrageous.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

In theory, Duncan was possibly two plays away from a 5-peat (though I think that is bogus, but hey). That's outrageous.

5 peat hahahahah he never even came close to a 2peat until Kawhi came along in 2013\2014.

2000 - injured
2004 - 2nd round elimination
2006 - 2nd round elimination
2008 - 1 conference finals win

[Uncle Drew]

Would it be possible to install some sort of IQ requirement before being able to hit submit? I'm getting tired of this absolute failure of a specimen. Your autism is leaking out again.

[RRR3]

Would it be possible to install some sort of IQ requirement before being able to hit submit? I'm getting tired of this absolute failure of a specimen. Your autism is leaking out again.
If Jeff made the IQ requirement even, say, 90, most of this forum would disappear.

[Bronbron23]

If Jeff made the IQ requirement even, say, 90, most of this forum would disappear.

Yup good thing nobody would miss your bish ass

[TheGoatest]

He has as good of a case for #4 as anyone. But no higher than that.

[Thenameless]

GOAT's too high, but he easily makes my Top 10. And I'm pretty sure he makes the Top 10 of most knowledgeable fans.

Wilt, Russell, Oscar Robertson, Kareem, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Duncan.

He's somewhere in the mix, but not at the top. I'd probably have him somewhere between 6 and 8.

[FireDavidKahn]

Jesus.

People are now saying that Duncan had a bad supporting cast?

Holy hell.:roll:

[HoopsNY]

Jesus.

People are now saying that Duncan had a bad supporting cast?

Holy hell.:roll:

Compared to the likes of LeBron, Bird, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell? It's not that he had a bad supporting cast, but the Spurs supporting casts were not monumental.

Sure he beat the Knicks in 1999, but that didn't come without sweeping Shaq, Kobe, and Glen Rice, a team that won 67 games and the championship the very next season. And then look at his supporting cast in 2003.

[SouBeachTalents]

Absolutely not. Top 10 is exactly where he belongs

[kawhileonard2]

No Kawhi led them.

[dankok8]

Look at the cast Timmy won with in 2003:


RkPlayerAgeGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%2P2PA2P%eFG%FTFTAF T%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
1Tim Duncan26242442.59.117.2.5290.00.3.0009.116.9.538.5 296.59.7.6774.011.415.45.30.63.33.23.324.7
2Tony Parker20242433.95.614.0.4030.62.3.2685.011.6.430.4 252.83.9.7130.32.42.83.50.90.12.02.114.7
3Stephen Jackson24242433.84.510.9.4141.64.7.3362.96.2.473.4 872.22.8.8030.83.34.12.71.40.42.82.212.8
4Bruce Bowen31242431.32.36.0.3721.53.3.4380.82.7.292.4931 .01.8.5480.62.32.91.60.80.70.62.26.9
5Manu Ginobili2524027.53.07.7.3861.23.0.3841.84.6.387.46 22.33.1.7571.22.63.82.91.70.41.52.69.4
6David Robinson37232323.42.85.1.5420.00.02.85.1.542.5422. 33.4.6672.04.76.60.90.81.31.02.77.8
7Malik Rose2824023.33.17.5.4190.00.1.0003.17.3.426.4193.0 3.9.7662.03.75.81.00.70.51.83.09.3
8Speedy Claxton2424013.61.94.4.4380.00.01.94.4.438.4381.41 .8.7500.31.61.91.90.70.21.01.65.2
9Steve Smith33907.30.62.7.2080.21.3.1670.31.3.250.2500.40 .41.0000.10.70.80.70.10.00.20.31.8
10Danny Ferry361616.30.51.8.2860.30.9.2860.30.9.286.3570.0 0.00.21.31.40.40.10.00.31.31.3
11Kevin Willis401805.11.22.2.5250.10.11.0001.12.2.513.5380 .20.21.0001.10.71.70.10.10.10.40.92.6
12Steve Kerr371004.60.71.1.6360.50.6.8330.20.5.400.8640.30 .4.7500.10.20.30.60.10.00.10.62.2



Provided by Basketball-Reference.com (https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): View Original Table (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#playoffs_per_game)
Generated 1/23/2021.

And something you don't see very often. When Duncan sat on the bench the team had a -5.7 NetRtg. When any other Spur sat, the team had a positive NetRtg.

Maybe the biggest carryjob in history?

[Axe]

Played for a stacked team during most of his career.

[TAZORAC]

Duncan is top 4. Top 5.

Duncan doesn't have a better resume than Bron, Jordan, Kareem.

Oljawon is better then Duncan and Malone possibly.

[StrongLurk]

Duncan's resume is great, but he is ranked properly somewhere in the back-end of the top 10.

[Carbine]

He has a case for GOAT franchise player.

LeBron is higher on the GOAT list for sure but he is proven to jump ship a bunch. Shaq was the same way.

Duncan brought no drama, an ability to be coached like the 12th man on the team setting a tone for the rest of the team. He fits with any type of team because he's one of the few players in the top ten ATG that can impact the game and be the best player without pounding the rock for 15 seconds every play.

GOAT franchise player.

Top 10 Individual GOAT

[Hey Yo]

People talk about 22yr old LeBron's awful 2007 Finals, but Duncan played almost as bad and he was in his prime.

Timmy avg. 18-11 but shot 44% from the field and a TS% of .483 against Ilgauskas and Varejao as his primary match-ups.

[Uncle Drew]

People talk about 22yr old LeBron's awful 2007 Finals, but Duncan played almost as bad and he was in his prime.

Timmy avg. 18-11 but shot 44% from the field and a TS% of .483 against Ilgauskas and Varejao as his primary match-ups.

This is why stats don't matter. Duncan's presence alone is what made the Finals a sweep, and a say that as a Cavaliers fan. Every time he was on the floor he was far and away the best player there and he should have definitely been Finals MVP.

[warriorfan]

Look at the cast Timmy won with in 2003:


RkPlayerAgeGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%2P2PA2P%eFG%FTFTAF T%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
1Tim Duncan26242442.59.117.2.5290.00.3.0009.116.9.538.5 296.59.7.6774.011.415.45.30.63.33.23.324.7
2Tony Parker20242433.95.614.0.4030.62.3.2685.011.6.430.4 252.83.9.7130.32.42.83.50.90.12.02.114.7
3Stephen Jackson24242433.84.510.9.4141.64.7.3362.96.2.473.4 872.22.8.8030.83.34.12.71.40.42.82.212.8
4Bruce Bowen31242431.32.36.0.3721.53.3.4380.82.7.292.4931 .01.8.5480.62.32.91.60.80.70.62.26.9
5Manu Ginobili2524027.53.07.7.3861.23.0.3841.84.6.387.46 22.33.1.7571.22.63.82.91.70.41.52.69.4
6David Robinson37232323.42.85.1.5420.00.02.85.1.542.5422. 33.4.6672.04.76.60.90.81.31.02.77.8
7Malik Rose2824023.33.17.5.4190.00.1.0003.17.3.426.4193.0 3.9.7662.03.75.81.00.70.51.83.09.3
8Speedy Claxton2424013.61.94.4.4380.00.01.94.4.438.4381.41 .8.7500.31.61.91.90.70.21.01.65.2
9Steve Smith33907.30.62.7.2080.21.3.1670.31.3.250.2500.40 .41.0000.10.70.80.70.10.00.20.31.8
10Danny Ferry361616.30.51.8.2860.30.9.2860.30.9.286.3570.0 0.00.21.31.40.40.10.00.31.31.3
11Kevin Willis401805.11.22.2.5250.10.11.0001.12.2.513.5380 .20.21.0001.10.71.70.10.10.10.40.92.6
12Steve Kerr371004.60.71.1.6360.50.6.8330.20.5.400.8640.30 .4.7500.10.20.30.60.10.00.10.62.2



Provided by Basketball-Reference.com (https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): View Original Table (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#playoffs_per_game)
Generated 1/23/2021.

And something you don't see very often. When Duncan sat on the bench the team had a -5.7 NetRtg. When any other Spur sat, the team had a positive NetRtg.

Maybe the biggest carryjob in history?

If Bron had this team all we would hear is excuses and “he needs more help”.

[k0kakw0rld]

Casual fans have him behind Kobe and Shaq all time. They are all out of their mind.

First off stats aside, he has more MVPs and FMVPs than both Kobe and Shaq.

In the history of the league:
Players with at least 4 rings and 3 fmvps

Jordan
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
LeBron

Players with at least 5 rings and 3 fmvps

Jordan
Magic
Duncan

[rmt]

5 peat hahahahah he never even came close to a 2peat until Kawhi came along in 2013\2014.

2000 - injured
2004 - 2nd round elimination
2006 - 2nd round elimination
2008 - 1 conference finals win

He means (2004) Fisher 0.4 play and (2006) Manu's dumb foul on Dirk.

[rmt]

He means (2004) Fisher 0.4 play and (2006) Manu's dumb foul on Dirk.

Combined with (2013) Ray Allen's 3 - amazing how single plays matter, eh? Those were possibly 3 more rings :-(

[DMAVS41]

Yes, the run the Spurs went on under Duncan was absurd.

Yes, he had really good...sometimes great help...and all-time great coaching, but the results were amazing.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bill-russells-celtics-were-great-tim-duncans-spurs-have-been-better/

He's in part under-rated because he didn't play for stats. He easily could have averaged a few more points per game to make his averages look better in the regular season, but that wasn't the type of player he was.

He's also on the short list for best leader in NBA history.

His 03 title, which has been mentioned here, is on the short list of most impressive level of play on a single star team in NBA history. 25/15/5 58% TS...116 ortg...92 drtg....for an entire title run (in a much tougher defensive era) while also playing all-time great defense is absurdly good. Few players peak anywhere near that.

[Micku]

Casual fans have him behind Kobe and Shaq all time. They are all out of their mind.



I disagree. Shaq was a better player than Duncan was, especially at his peak. Kobe might've been.

I think it's interchangeable and they all belong in the same tier. I don't think it's crazy to suggest that Shaq and Kobe are better. I think it's crazy to say Shaq and Kobe are way better tho. It depends on what you value more.

[StrongLurk]

Top 10 Tier List.
1. MJ
2. Lebron, Kareem
3. Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe
4. Bird, Duncan, Hakeem

[k0kakw0rld]

You are deranged. They all were able to do the same shit in their prime which is winning and dominating.

[k0kakw0rld]

Top 10 Tier List.
1. MJ
2. Lebron, Kareem
3. Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe
4. Bird, Duncan, Hakeem
you are a moron.

First off for not having Bird and magic in the same tier (because 99% of NBA fans consider them equal, dummy).
Shaq's resume isn't touching Duncan's.

4 rings 3 fmvps 1 mvp isn't competing with 5 rings 3 fmvps 2 mvps or is it?

I know you choose to ignore my post. But I am here to tell you that you are an idiot.

[tpols]

Duncan is great, but Kobe used to own him. How can you say he was better than MJ when Jordan Jr. used to beat up on him?

[light]

Won 5 rings behind dominant two-way play.

Duncan doesn't look that imposing statistically but at least half of his impact came on the defensive end where stats simply don't do him justice. Prime Duncan over his best 10-year stretch from 1999-2008 was giving you 24/13/4 on +2 rTS with ridiculous D. When taking the defense into account, that can compare to anyone. Duncan was easily worth 5-6 points per 100 possessions on defense and at his peak probably more.

Not to mention the guy was such a great personality in the locker room. And his supporting casts were weaker than anyone else. Manu and Tony were good players but not even top 50 players all time. He had an older Robinson and a very young pre-prime Kawhi. He had Pop but come on... Compared to other GOATs like Jordan, Kareem, Russell and Lebron he had weaker casts and still won 5 chips. It can't really be denied.

And even from purity standpoint for those who care... He did stay with one small market franchise his whole career.

So why isn't Duncan getting love? Is it because he's boring? That's the only thing I can come up with. I've never made a post about Timmy so I'm not a huge fan of his or something but it occurred to me that he has a GOAT case. He really does.

He didn't do enough.

Basically comes down to that.

[Smoke117]

No, not really. He's clearly not the GOAT or close to it. He's not in my top 10 either. He's also never been as great as David Robinson. He could never carry those 90s teams to as many wins as Big Dave did.

[k0kakw0rld]

No, not really. He's clearly not the GOAT or close to it. He's not in my top 10 either. He's also never been as great as David Robinson. He could never carry those 90s teams to as many wins as Big Dave did.
Shut the fk up you are an imbecile. Bitch ass nikka fakkit ass b!tch.

[k0kakw0rld]

He didn't do enough.

Basically comes down to that.
What's enough for you dummy?

He's got 5 rings, 3x FMVPs, 2 MVPs That's more than Shaq, Kobe

DON'T YOU GET THAT OR YOU JUST IGNORING THE FACTS?

[k0kakw0rld]

What's enough for you dummy?

He's got 5 rings, 3x FMVPs, 2 MVPs (won back-to-back MVPs)
That's more than Shaq, Kobe
I will assume Kobe and Shaq ain't in your top 10.
DON'T YOU GET THAT OR YOU JUST IGNORING THE FACTS ON PURPOSE?

You a moron if you don't have him top 5 and a piece of shit for not having him in your top 10.

He won a ring in three different decades.
90s 1 99
00s 3 2003, 2005, 2007 (he beat J-Kidd and the Nets, Detroit and LeBron James)
10s 1 2014 (he defeated the Miami's big 3)

He beat OKC big 3 & Clippers big 3 in the playoffs.
He also stopped Shaq/Kobe in their prime once.

[pandiani17]

If he was more outspoken or flashy he would be making a case for himself being the best PF of all-time, Top 5, etc., like most of the players do.

[DMAVS41]

If he was more outspoken or flashy he would be making a case for himself being the best PF of all-time, Top 5, etc., like most of the players do.

Everyone already has him as the best PF ever. Haven't seen a list since like 2003 with him not number 1.

[rmt]

No, not really. He's clearly not the GOAT or close to it. He's not in my top 10 either. He's also never been as great as David Robinson. He could never carry those 90s teams to as many wins as Big Dave did.

I'll preface this by saying that, of course, everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

But ... I never understood why some don't look at the WHOLE package. DRob was a tremendous physical specimen but he never WANTED to win as much as Duncan - basketball just wasn't as important (God, charity, etc.) in his life - he didn't have that drive, competitiveness, the mental side (as TD). This is no knock on DRob - after all, he set the tone and was the example - showed TD how to gracefully step aside and foster the development/growth of team mates for the betterment of the team.

I don't see any reasonable explanation for not having Duncan in a GOAT top 10 - I don't think there are 10 other players with better resumes and in the end, isn't that what we're judging - what was ACCOMPLISHED (after all the goal is to win championships) - not who was better physically, scored more, blocked more (or had more potential) without the results?

[DMAVS41]

I'll preface this by saying that, of course, everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

But ... I never understood why some don't look at the WHOLE package. DRob was a tremendous physical specimen but he never WANTED to win as much as Duncan - basketball just wasn't as important (God, charity, etc.) in his life - he didn't have that drive, competitiveness, the mental side (as TD). This is no knock on DRob - after all, he set the tone and was the example - showed TD how to gracefully step aside and foster the development/growth of team mates for the betterment of the team.

I don't see any reasonable explanation for not having Duncan in a GOAT top 10 - I don't think there are 10 other players with better resumes and in the end, isn't that what we're judging - what was ACCOMPLISHED (after all the goal is to win championships) - not who was better physically, scored more, blocked more (or had more potential) without the results?

It should be impact and success based on circumstances. Yes, Tim had great circumstances most of his career, but he also led the Spurs on arguably the best run a franchise has ever had in NBA history while being a dominant individual player. Nobody that knows NBA history thinks you'd draft 10 players above Duncan to start a franchise.

[getting_old]

His team was boring to watch, he had no personality, couldn't cheer or hate him

great player though and up there on my all-time list

but he's not kicking out those who were an honour and privilege to watch

and he biffed it totally against Miami in that Final....

[rmt]

His team was boring to watch, he had no personality, couldn't cheer or hate him

great player though and up there on my all-time list

but he's not kicking out those who were an honour and privilege to watch

and he biffed it totally against Miami in that Final....

To what are you referring when you say he biffed it totally? Hopefully not the Spurs' leading scorer and rebounder:

2013 Finals
Duncan 18.9 pts 12.1 rebs 1.4 asst 1.4 blk 49%FG

or when Spurs played so beautifully:

2014 Finals
Duncan 15.4 pts 10 rebs 2 asst 0.8 blk 56.9%FG

[dankok8]

It's interesting how most of the resistance to Duncan is coming from LeStans. These guys are so insecure they can't even acknowledge Duncan's greatness.

Timmy joined a small market team, stayed with them his whole career and won 5 titles. A lot of people if they were drafting a player for their franchise would choose Duncan over Lebron.

[SATAN]

No one has ever said Tim Duncan is "the GOAT". This thread is ****ing stupid.

dancockhead is trying to rewrite history.

[Lebron23]

Espn ranked him at 9

[ShawkFactory]

Duncan is great, but Kobe used to own him. How can you say he was better than MJ when Jordan Jr. used to beat up on him?
Kobe owned him? I'll digress from the fact that they played different positions and literally never guarded each other. But you know that during most of those wins Kobe played with Shaq right? An all time great that Duncan had to guard a lot of the time. Them beating the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 was unfair. Compare those rosters.

No one has ever called Duncan the GOAT but he made Shaq look pretty human while being undermanned. That had nothing to do with Kobe

[Horatio33]

Duncan is great, but Kobe used to own him. How can you say he was better than MJ when Jordan Jr. used to beat up on him?

Kobe had prime Shaq for three of those playoff victories.