To 3Ball: What Will LeBron Have to Do to Be Top 5 Ever?

[CTbasketball92]

I think LeBron is 1a or 1b to MJ, but i think I've seen you say that he's not top 5. What would he have to do to prove it in your eyes? He's probably winning the chip this year.

[8Ball]

His opinion about LeBron has been wrong for 8 years now.

It's like asking a homeless person about the economy.

LeBron is #1.

[3ball]

The team-hopping distorts his resume

But regardless, his game isn't top 5 due to weak jumpshooting skill and ball movement, which results in weak fits with various player types and a low ceiling on team offense.. ultimately, the overall team ceiling is lower - 0.400 teams on the championship level... aka the "clippers of the Finals"

For example, his Heat and Cavs super-teams should've been 70-win juggernauts, but his playground brand reduced them to longshot underdogs in nearly every Finals.

Ultimately, when you opt to cheat over compete, that's worthy of a banishment of sorts - and he isn't SO outstanding (significant holes to his game and resume) that he requires top 5 no matter what (regardless of the cheating)

So there's nothing he can do except the following miracle:

win a ring in a fashion that shows your holes (jumpshooting skill, ball movement) are fixed and now elite/all-time.. so basically impossible.. it's like telling logan paul to beat floyd

[8Ball]

See?

All garbage above.

LeBron defeated the greatest regular season team of all time with garbage defensive teammates. 73 win warriors were a better team than 72 win bulls. 73 > 72. LeBron took them down in 7 games with the greatest finals performance ever.

Soon to be 17 All-NBA teams. Potentially 40 000 in all time points. Which player had 16 All-NBA teams? None.

LeBron's competition is >>>>> Whatever Jordan faced in the 90s.

[SouBeachTalents]

Top 5? 3ball doesn't even have LeBron in his top 10 :oldlol:

[tpols]

Top 5? 3ball doesn't even have LeBron in his top 10 :oldlol:

Top 15 means he is one of the top 1% people to ever touch a basketball. Bron is that good.

[getting_old]

I'm an old fart, cynical about the game today, he's easily top 5 for me for 1973 to present.

[Spurs m8]

The team-hopping distorts his resume

But regardless, his game isn't top 5 due to weak jumpshooting skill and ball movement, which results in weak fits with various player types and a low ceiling on team offense.. ultimately, the overall team ceiling is lower - 0.400 teams on the championship level... aka the "clippers of the Finals"

For example, his Heat and Cavs super-teams should've been 70-win juggernauts, but his playground brand reduced them to longshot underdogs in nearly every Finals.

Ultimately, when you opt to cheat over compete, that's worthy of a banishment of sorts - and he isn't SO outstanding (significant holes to his game and resume) that he requires top 5 no matter what (regardless of the cheating)

So there's nothing he can do except the following miracle:

win a ring in a fashion that shows your holes (jumpshooting skill, ball movement) are fixed and now elite/all-time.. so basically impossible.. it's like telling logan paul to beat floyd

3ball is the ISH Goat

[Axe]

It's already 2021 and there are still mj vs. lbj debates happening in this board. :oldlol:

Why couldn't all of us just appreciate both players huh? They have their own set of accomplishments and shortcomings anyway.

[3ball]

It's already 2021 and there are still mj vs. lbj debates happening in this board. :oldlol:

Why couldn't all of us just appreciate both players huh? They have their own set of accomplishments and shortcomings anyway.


OP asked the question

[dankok8]

See?

All garbage above.

LeBron defeated the greatest regular season team of all time with garbage defensive teammates. 73 win warriors were a better team than 72 win bulls. 73 > 72. LeBron took them down in 7 games with the greatest finals performance ever.

Soon to be 17 All-NBA teams. Potentially 40 000 in all time points. Which player had 16 All-NBA teams? None.

LeBron's competition is >>>>> Whatever Jordan faced in the 90s.

Imagine actually believing the bolded parts...

That being said 3ball is a pretty sad case too. Hate to break it to you pal but Lebron is consensus top 10 all-time and most halfway credible people would have him in the top 5.

[3ball]

Imagine actually believing the bolded parts...

That being said 3ball is a pretty sad case too. Hate to break it to you pal but Lebron is consensus top 10 all-time and most halfway credible people would have him in the top 5.

That's fine people are wrong all the time

[SpaceJam]

That's fine people are wrong all the time

That's true, like that poster who said people will be saying Oubre is better than Klay

[LAL]

How can 3ball change the faillures, weaknesses, the excuses and all the blatant ringchasing?

The real top 10 guys didn't play like cowards, played the game naturally, no hiding behind a system and try to dominate trough assists mostly (like the other mental midget Wilt when players got taller, stronger and darker in the 70s) Other ATG's won more or as much in shorter careers with less weaknesses and no ringchasing, creating all star teams in their prime in a weak conference while stat padding in his system from day one. Can't even play his natural position or he'll be exposed.

How many more prime years to tie Kobe or MJ? Dude tried everything.

[Axe]

That's true, like that poster who said people will be saying Oubre is better than Klay
Jesus, he isn't aware of this? Yikes.

[guy]

But regardless, his game isn't top 5 due to weak jumpshooting skill and ball movement, which results in weak fits with various player types and a low ceiling on team offense.. ultimately, the overall team ceiling is lower - 0.400 teams on the championship level... aka the "clippers of the Finals"

For example, his Heat and Cavs super-teams should've been 70-win juggernauts, but his playground brand reduced them to longshot underdogs in nearly every Finals.


I don't think you can just blindly conclude that he's not top 5 because of this. However, I don't see how these aren't valid criticisms/observations - relatively speaking of course since we are talking about the GOATs.

[dankok8]

I don't think you can just blindly conclude that he's not top 5 because of this. However, I don't see how these aren't valid criticisms/observations - relatively speaking of course since we are talking about the GOATs.

It's not that 3ball is wrong but it's boring reading the same regurgitated arguments by fans on both sides. His view that Lebron isn't top 10 all time is extreme. Lebron's resume at this point commands that he be in the top 10. It's not objective to say he isn't top 10.

[guy]

It's not that 3ball is wrong but it's boring reading the same regurgitated arguments by fans on both sides. His view that Lebron isn't top 10 all time is extreme. Lebron's resume at this point commands that he be in the top 10. It's not objective to say he isn't top 10.

Agreed. The extreme conclusions he makes are not deserved. But points like the one I mentioned, so not all of his points, are valid yet generally dismissed in the chorus of Lebron excuse-making.

[sdot_thadon]

Imagine actually believing the bolded parts...

That being said 3ball is a pretty sad case too. Hate to break it to you pal but Lebron is consensus top 10 all-time and most halfway credible people would have him in the top 5.

Not that I necessarily agree with what you quoted but I'm intrigued by the thought process here. So why would you say the 1st bolded portion is untrue? Humor me for a moment.

[Spurs m8]

How come people cant realise - all things aside - that his playing on the court just doesn't equate to top 5 material?

Cool, he got empty stats - due to both stat padding and longevity...but that doesn't even come close to making someone a GOAT.

the skill never was and never will be there...

THEN...you start adding the extras like the multiple collusions, big help needed, lack of killer instinct, etc....and you see its not even close.

You **** don't like the truth though...you refuse to look at it for what it is...you need your bron glasses on.

There's a reason he's not consensus GOAT...
And there's a reason you don't hear IRL from non stans that he is the GOAT...

Because he isn't even close.

Cheers.

[Smoke117]

How come people cant realise - all things aside - that his playing on the court just doesn't equate to top 5 material?

Cool, he got empty stats - due to both stat padding and longevity...but that doesn't even come close to making someone a GOAT.

the skill never was and never will be there...

THEN...you start adding the extras like the multiple collusions, big help needed, lack of killer instinct, etc....and you see its not even close.

You **** don't like the truth though...you refuse to look at it for what it is...you need your bron glasses on.

There's a reason he's not consensus GOAT...
And there's a reason you don't hear IRL from non stans that he is the GOAT...

Because he isn't even close.

Cheers.

lol Empty stats? All Advanced numbers show LeBron to be one highest impact players of all time. Whether you hate him or not you'd have to be a complete imbecile to say his stats have been empty.

[SATAN]

The MJ stans I know in person suddenly seem hesitant to argue on behalf of their beloved bald ball hog since LeBron got another chip. Something odd is happening.

But anyway, sorry to interrupt...

[RRR3]

lol Empty stats? All Advanced numbers show LeBron to be one highest impact players of all time. Whether you hate him or not you'd have to be a complete imbecile to say his stats have been empty.
Poor guy has severe brain damage, go easy on him.

[Axe]

It's not that 3ball is wrong but it's boring reading the same regurgitated arguments by fans on both sides. His view that Lebron isn't top 10 all time is extreme. Lebron's resume at this point commands that he be in the top 10. It's not objective to say he isn't top 10.
Someone probably pays him a huge amount of money to hate on king kong lmao

[3ball]

I don't think you can just blindly conclude that he's not top 5 because of these skill shortcomings


.


Okay, but the following is disqualifying:

He isn't capable of organic rings because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record against Spurs, Mavs, Warriors (poor Finals record = lower team ceilings = lower championship odds = worse player)

[AirBonner]

Okay, but the following is disqualifying:

He isn't capable of organic rings because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record against Spurs, Mavs, Warriors (poor Finals record = lower team ceilings = lower championship odds = worse player)

Jaylen Brown is a better midrange shooter than MJ

[SATAN]

Better 3 point shooter also

[3ball]

Jaylen Brown is a better midrange shooter than MJ


Let me know when he hits 700 mid-range jumpers at 49%

And jaylen shoots less contested because we all know that jaylen gets to tag team the load with equal scoring partner Tatum, while mj carried it by himself

[AirBonner]

Let me know when he hits 700 mid-range jumpers at 49%

And jaylen shoots less contested because we all know that jaylen gets to tag team the load with equal scoring partner Tatum, while mj carried it by himself

Try 57% and Tatum hasn’t played in nearly 3 weeks

[3ball]

Try 57%


Of course because jaylen gets "equal scoring partner" looks, while mj got 1-man carry job looks

That's why Jaylen has no volume - he shares with tatum - if jaylen had Jordan's carry-job volume, he wouldn't shoot 49%

[AirBonner]

Of course because jaylen gets "equal scoring partner" looks, while mj got 1-man carry job looks

Tatum hasn’t been playing for nearly 3 weeks and Brown’s percentages has improved

[3ball]

Tatum hasn’t been playing for nearly 3 weeks and Brown’s percentages has improved


Jaylen has no volume compared to Jordan because jaylen has far more scoring help, with or without tatum

[And1AllDay]

His opinion about LeBron has been wrong for 8 years now.

It's like asking a homeless person about the economy.

LeBron is #1.

:oldlol::oldlol::roll:

[sdot_thadon]

Okay, but the following is disqualifying:

Because some internet weirdo, stuck in the past past has a deformed perception of reality and what excellence is...somehow subscribing to a notion that there's only one way to be excellent and that somehow you can quantify opinions......

[3ball]

Because some internet weirdo, stuck in the past past has a deformed perception of reality and what excellence is...somehow subscribing to a notion that there's only one way to be excellent and that somehow you can quantify opinions......


Haha you can't quote my full post because it was so potent and now you're whining with big words while saying nothing about basketball.. Lol 3ball wins again

[Airupthere]

Lebron has 1 legit ring, that is in 2016. That's it.

Without the collusion in Miami is there any doubt that he would have won 2? He only managed 2/4 with Wade and Bosh in a superteam, there was no way he was winning with less.

Last year's bubble was just a joke so that should not count. Look at where Miami is now. Look at how good the league is shooting in this practice league.

[sdot_thadon]

Haha you can't quote my full post because it was so potent and now you're whining with big words while saying nothing about basketball.. Lol 3ball wins again

I didn't quote your full post, because it's full of weirdo theories that can't be proven and no one should be forced to read them more than once. That's all.

[3ball]

I didn't quote your full post, because it's full of weirdo theories that can't be proven and no one should be forced to read them more than once. That's all.





The stats prove that lebron turns teammates into spot-up players (play-finishers) because he reduces their assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)

So it's a fact that he imposes spot-up roles

Now do those spot-up roles stall young players?.. basketball 101 says yes, and there's tons of examples (Ingram, Hughes, Crowder, Love)

So you can say that I'm spouting nonsense, but I'm simply reciting statistics that you're ignoring

It's sad that you guys suspend your intelligence when discussing lebron.. and it's only lebron - you're perfectly happy to say that westbrook or wall are weak-shooting, ball-dominators.

Ultimately, lebron imposes spot-up roles that prevent brand or teammate development, thereby requiring team-hopping (talent-based winning).. and the historical record proves that talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record against Spurs, Mavs, Warriors (poor Finals record = lower team ceilings = lower championship odds = worse player)

[rawimpact]

Lebron just about doubled MJ's assists
Lebron has rings on every team hes played for

How did Jordan do with the Wizards?

[3ball]

Lebron just about doubled MJ's assists
Lebron has rings on every team hes played for

How did Jordan do with the Wizards?


Lebron dominates the ball and therefore sacrifices team assists and team offense for personal assists and stats

Otoh, Jordan had a better mix of on-ball and off-ball play, so he facilitated higher team assists and team offense, despite less offensive help.

But regarding personal assists - lebron averages 1.5 more assists in the playoffs despite dominating the ball for his entire career

Otoh, Jordan averaged 5 more points with better efficiency per possession despite being the sole focus of the defense - Jordan never had a 1b teammate to take pressure off

5 > 1.5.... and Jordan had better team offense and team assists

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron dominates the ball and therefore sacrifices team assists and team offense for personal assists and stats

Otoh, Jordan had a better mix of on-ball and off-ball play, so he facilitated higher team assists and team offense, despite less offensive help.

But regarding personal assists - lebron averages 1.5 more assists in the playoffs despite dominating the ball for his entire career

Otoh, Jordan averaged 5 more points with better efficiency per possession despite being the sole focus of the defense - Jordan never had a 1b teammate to take pressure off

5 > 1.5.... and Jordan had better team offense and team assists
1.5 more assists without asking how many of Lebron's assists led to made 3s....aka more points than MJ's?
Riiight.

[8Ball]

LeBron can drop to top 5 all time by eliminating half his career.

So if LeBron stopped playing basketball in 2012.

[Airupthere]

LeBron can drop to top 5 all time by eliminating half his career.

So if LeBron stopped playing basketball in 2012.

The cutoff is after the first collusion?

[3ball]

1.5 more assists without asking how many of Lebron's assists led to made 3s....aka more points than MJ's?
Riiight.


Jordan created assists by being an assisted player (assist target), while lebron is always dribbling and therefore can't be assisted

So Jordan created more assists than lebron by assisting or BEING assisted

Ultimately, his off-ball style allowed ball movement that resulted in higher team assists and team offense.. who cares about personal assists or stats that occur at the expense of TEAM assists?




1.5 more assists without asking how many of Lebron's assists led to made 3s....aka more points than MJ's?
Riiight.


the stats prove that lebron turns teammates into spot-up players/play-finishers because he reduces their assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)

So it's a fact that he imposes spot-up roles

Now do those spot-up roles stall young players?.. basketball 101 says yes, and there's tons of examples (Ingram, Hughes, Crowder, Love)




1.5 more assists without asking how many of Lebron's assists led to made 3s....aka more points than MJ's?
Riiight.


It's sad that you guys suspend your intelligence when discussing lebron.. and it's only lebron - you're perfectly happy to say that westbrook or wall are weak-shooting, ball-dominators.

Ultimately, lebron imposes spot-up roles that prevent brand or teammate development, thereby requiring team-hopping (talent-based winning).. and the historical record proves that talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record against Spurs, Mavs, Warriors (poor Finals record = lower team ceilings = lower championship odds = worse player)..

[Airupthere]

MJ, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Bill Russel are all greater than Lebron.

[aj1987]

MJ, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Bill Russel are all greater than Lebron.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

If you legit believe that, time to go get lobotomized.

[Airupthere]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

If you legit believe that, time to go get lobotomized.

MJ, KAJ, Bill are all interchangeable in terms of being GOAT. Bird and Magic revolutionized the game in ways Lebron can not possibly do. Bird might just be the weakest case and the only thing that he does not have is longevity. Yet, he accomplished a lot with a short career and without collusion. Strip Lebron of the benefits of collusion and he's a Tmac.

[8Ball]

LeBron about to have 17 All-NBA teams.
14 All-NBA 1st teams.

The next people on the list have 15 All-NBA teams including 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

So you need to cut LeBron's career in half for LeBron to drop to top 5.

[Airupthere]

LeBron about to have 17 All-NBA teams.
14 All-NBA 1st teams.

The next people on the list have 15 All-NBA teams including 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

So you need to cut LeBron's career in half for LeBron to drop to top 5.

If you cut his career before the Miami "not 1, not 2, not 3.." collusion, he does not even crack the top 20.

[SouBeachTalents]

If you cut his career before the Miami "not 1, not 2, not 3.." collusion, he does not even crack the top 20.
None of the guys you listed would've won shit on those Cavs teams. Magic & Bird don't get bonus points just because they were gifted multiple HOF's by the team that drafted them

[ArbitraryWater]

MJ, KAJ, Bill are all interchangeable in terms of being GOAT. Bird and Magic revolutionized the game in ways Lebron can not possibly do. Bird might just be the weakest case and the only thing that he does not have is longevity. Yet, he accomplished a lot with a short career and without collusion. Strip Lebron of the benefits of collusion and he's a Tmac.

what a shit argument for being a better basketball player.

[RRR3]

Whose alt is Airheadupthere lol

[Airupthere]

None of the guys you listed would've won shit on those Cavs teams. Magic & Bird don't get bonus points just because they were gifted multiple HOF's by the teams that drafted them

I would normally agree to that but doesn't Lebron "carry" teams to the finals? Then the roster should not matter then.

Also, the collusion team only won 2 out of 4. Had he not colluded and stayed in Cleveland not gone nuts trying to pitch to stars, what do you think his finals record would have been in those years? Without the collusion, there may not be much rings we are going to be talking about. That is how critical the collusion is in these discussions. Simple because they were orchestrated like no other players has done before him.

[Airupthere]

Whose alt is Airheadupthere lol

Just leveling the playing field my friend

[aj1987]

MJ, KAJ, Bill are all interchangeable in terms of being GOAT. Bird and Magic revolutionized the game in ways Lebron can not possibly do. Bird might just be the weakest case and the only thing that he does not have is longevity. Yet, he accomplished a lot with a short career and without collusion. Strip Lebron of the benefits of collusion and he's a Tmac.

How many accounts do you have, idiot? You do know that your autistic posts make it pretty obvious, right?

Strip Bird, Magic, and Russell the benefits of playing on GOAT level stacked teams, they'd be worse than LeBron. LeBron still has the stats and individual accolades over all of them.

[Airupthere]

How many accounts do you have, idiot? You do know that your autistic posts make it pretty obvious, right?

Strip Bird, Magic, and Russell the benefits of playing on GOAT level stacked teams, they'd be worse than LeBron. LeBron still has the stats and individual accolades over all of them.

My posts are consistent with the idiocy that goes around from Lebron stans.

Lebron forced these collusions, that is the difference.

[aj1987]

My posts are consistent with the idiocy that goes around from Lebron stans.

Lebron forced these collusions, that is the difference.

LeBron stans might be trolls, but you haters are straight up retards with subhuman IQ's.

Even with all that, LeBron is a consensus top 2 GOAT.

[3ball]

.
* It's a statistical fact that lebron imposes spot-up or play-finishing roles onto teammates because his teammates see lower assists alongside him (lower playmaking) and higher assisted rates (play-finishing) - so they're being turned into play-finishers - it's statistical fact





Even with all that, LeBron is a consensus top 2 GOAT.





the reason lebron isn't top 5:

he isn't capable of organic rings because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record against Spurs, Mavs, Warriors (poor brand of ball = lower team ceilings = poor Finals record = lower championship odds = worse player)

Other negatives of Lebron's game include (no order)... 1) Lost as the favorite many times... 2) Lost to 1-star teams... 3) Zero #1 offenses... 4) No carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing (no wins against top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick)... 6) avoids contested jumpers... 7) Shoots poorly at high volume (because he can't shoot contested jumpers)... 8) needs a 1b - he can't win with true 2nd option because he shoots poorly at higher volumes required (contested jumpshooting)

[SATAN]

LeBron James it the greatest basketball player of all time and it's not even close. Get over it.

[Airupthere]

.
* It's a statistical fact that lebron imposes spot-up or play-finishing roles onto teammates because his teammates see lower assists alongside him (lower playmaking) and higher assisted rates (play-finishing) - so they're being turned into play-finishers - it's statistical fact





the reason lebron isn't top 5:

he isn't capable of organic rings because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record against Spurs, Mavs, Warriors (poor brand of ball = lower team ceilings = poor Finals record = lower championship odds = worse player)

Other negatives of Lebron's game include (no order)... 1) Lost as the favorite many times... 2) Lost to 1-star teams... 3) Zero #1 offenses... 4) No carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing (no wins against top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick)... 6) avoids contested jumpers... 7) Shoots poorly at high volume (because he can't shoot contested jumpers)... 8) needs a 1b - he can't win with true 2nd option because he shoots poorly at higher volumes required (contested jumpshooting)

3ball, it would be great if someone could make a visual of the statistics supporting the fact the Lebron makes his teammate worse in the long run. It's like a trade off of winning as a superteam.

Maybe some plots showing trajectory of different statistics/metrics of key players that Lebron recruited, before, during, and after playing with him. It can be clearly seen that decline is significant and not just because of overcrowding.

That's another thing too. If overcrowding is an issue then it only means Lebron recruits more than what is fair or needed.

[SATAN]

He's talking to himself

[aj1987]

.
* It's a statistical fact that ordan imposes spot-up or play-finishing roles onto teammates because his teammates see lower assists alongside him (lower playmaking) and higher assisted rates (play-finishing) - so they're being turned into play-finishers - it's statistical fact
Yep. Ordan severely lowered his teammates' PPG, APG, and RPG.

Proof:

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


the reason ordan isn't top 5:

he isn't capable of organic rings because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so ordan has a lottery record against celtics, pistons, etc (poor brand of ball = lower team ceilings = poor 1st round record = lower championship odds = worse player)
Agreed!

[paksat]

lol Empty stats? All Advanced numbers show LeBron to be one highest impact players of all time. Whether you hate him or not you'd have to be a complete imbecile to say his stats have been empty.

so do you consider frank gore top 5 running backs of all time since he's like 3rd most in rushing yards in the nfl?

There's nothing lebronze can do at this point to change anything among most bball fans. The fact is that he built super teams due to kinda sorta what 3ball has already pointed out, his inabilities in his game. Can you imagine lebronze in the triangle offense? Or the spurs offense? He doesn't know how that even works, his time with wade when they lost to the mavericks pointed that out. Lebronze was LOST out there when he couldn't have the ball in his hands 24/7. Wade carved the mavericks up, so it should have been EASY for another top 5 player to get his when wade is commanding so much attention.

Does kobe lose the finals with wade on his team vs the mavericks? Does jordan lose? Does shaq lose? Does durant lose? Does curry lose?

Lebronze screwed himself by being highly unlikeable as well with his constant bickering about, damn near everything. You can't build your own team, run people over, stiff arm people, crab dribble, lebroning.. all this garbage over and over and over and not have people roll their eyes at you being some all time great. The guy literally went out of his way to get draymond green thrown out of the finals REGARDLESS of whether it was deserved or not ( that's not his job, it's the officials ).

In short, it's just over he tarnished his own legacy and has shown nothing at all to say he's ashamed of it.

[Airupthere]

Yep. Ordan severely lowered his teammates' PPG, APG, and RPG.

Proof:

Jordan marginalized his teammates and ALWAYS reduced their PPG, APG, and RPG. Players put up better numbers WITHOUT Jordan than they did WITH him. Case in point:

Horace Grant from '88-93 - 12/8
Horace Grant in 1994 - 15/11

Toni Kukoc from '96-'98 - 13/4/4
Toni Kukoc in 1999 - 19/7/5

BJ from '90-'93 - 9/3
BJ in 1994 - 15/4

Harper from '87-'94 - 19/5/5
Harper with Jordan - 8/3/3
Harper in '99 - 11/5/3

I'll add one more of Jordan's teammates:

Scottie Pippen from '88-'93 - 16/7/5
Scottie Pippen from '94-'95 - 22/8/5

FACT: MJ reduced his teammates' PPG, RPG, and APG.


Agreed!

Those are stats after playing with MJ. Logically there can be only so much space for stats in a team. But to appreciate MJs effect, he formed a winning team with or without him. Those guys had a lot more in the tank even in the absence of MJ.

Now with Lebron-ball, if Lebron who dominates the ball is gone, now everyone does not know what to do. They have been stupefied into being catch and shoot kind of players. We see those stats go down year per year for Love, AD, Wade, and Bosh. Look at their stats after playing with Lebron. None are able to rebound.

Young ones though like Kyrie or Ingram do better after Lebron. Kyrie just never respected Lebron to succumb to his system. Ingram was not indoctrinized long enough yet.

[aj1987]

Those are stats after playing with MJ. Logically there can be only so much space for stats in a team. But to appreciate MJs effect, he formed a winning team with or without him. Those guys had a lot more in the tank even in the absence of MJ.
Because they actually were that good. Before Ordan and after. Even though the cancer marginalized their stats massively and tried to shit on them by making a documentary decades later. Are you acting like Mo Williams and Big Z are on the same level as Pippen and Rodman?


Now with Lebron-ball, if Lebron who dominates the ball is gone, now everyone does not know what to do. They have been stupefied into being catch and shoot kind of players. We see those stats go down year per year for Love, AD, Wade, and Bosh. Look at their stats after playing with Lebron. None are able to rebound.
Except for the FACT that Wade and LeBron (when Wade was healthy) had nearly identical time of possession.

Except for the FACT that Kyrie and LeBron (when Kyrie was healthy) had nearly identical time of possession.

LeBron, while playing nearly 10 MPG more than Schroder has only about minute more of the ball in his hands.

Love was playing on a dog shit team putting up stats while missing PO's year in and year out. Also, not to mention the FACT that he has been playing with a destroyed back.

Same with Bosh, except for the FACT that he came out and said that he doesn't want to play in the post anymore, because it's too taxing on his body. I guess Bosh being soft is on LeBron as well, idiot?

Wade, when he was healthy was nearly the same player as he was without LeBron.

AD? Dude literally just had a dominant Postseason and win a ring in the first season he played with LeBron. That's LeBron ball for you, retard. :cheers:

With all that being said, a GOAT level passer and scorer shouldn't play off ball and let much inferior players and playmakers than him run the offense more. That's just straight up retarded. I guess that's the norm for you.


Young ones though like Kyrie or Ingram do better after Lebron. Kyrie just never respected Lebron to succumb to his system. Ingram was not indoctrinized long enough yet.
Kyrie's highest scoring seasons were '20 and '21, where he has played 20 and 11 games, respectively.

Kyrie's highest scoring season with a significant sample season? WITH LeBron.

Also, Brandon Ingram played hurt a bunch with LeBron he only played 52 games the entire season. Even then, his scoring and efficiency went UP from the previous season when LeBron was still with the Cavs. The next season, he averaged like 5 more points while taking 4 more shots.

Also, ignoring his stats, care to tell me how his team has been doing since he left LeBron?