Titles As the Best Player

[dankok8]

This is the most important accomplishment when determining who the GOAT is. Note that this doesn't have to be the best player in history in their primes but the one who accomplished the most with his teams. Greatness in basketball is about winning, more precisely winning as the best player on the team. Second banana and role player rings aren't counted.

To make this list you have to either be:
- the best player on a title-winning team OR
- arguably the best player on a title-winning team and play like a superstar

The second condition allows for some players in 1a/1b situations to get full credit for their rings. Note that those that do not play at superstar level but are arguably the best players on their teams like Billups in 2004 don't make this list. Teams that are full of really good but no great players are called ensemble teams and I listed the following champions since the advent of the shot-clock as ensemble teams:

1955 Nationals
1973 Knicks
1976 Celtics
1978 Bullets
1979 Sonics
1989 Pistons
1990 Pistons
2004 Pistons
2014 Spurs

Maybe some teams could be argued to be added to this list or perhaps removed but I feel good about it. Isiah Thomas was a tough one because he was clearly the best player on those Pistons but not making an All-NBA team in those years even in stacked leagues makes me just leave him off the list. It was a tough choice. He's almost a special case and I'd be willing to give him half credit.

Without further ado here is the list of players that won titles as the best player on their teams. Bolded are those players that won at least one ring as the clear-cut best player. It excludes players who won all of their rings as co-best players. Players who scored the same are listed in chronological order.

Bill Russell: 11 (57, 59-66, 68, 69)
Michael Jordan: 6 (91-93, 96-98)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 4 (71, 80, 82, 85)
Magic Johnson: 4 (82, 85, 87, 88)
Tim Duncan: 4 (99, 03, 05, 07)
Lebron James: 4 (12, 13, 16, 00)
John Havlicek: 3 (68, 69, 74)
Larry Bird: 3 (81, 84, 86)
Shaquille O'Neal: 3 (00, 01, 02)
Kobe Bryant: 3 (01, 09, 10)
Stephen Curry: 3 (15, 17, 18)
Wilt Chamberlain: 2 (67, 72)
Hakeem Olajuwon: 2 (94, 95)
Kevin Durant: 2 (17, 18)
Paul Arizin: 1 (56)
Bob Cousy: 1 (57)
Bob Pettit: 1 (58)
Jerry West: 1 (72)
Dave Cowens: 1 (74)
Rick Barry: 1 (75)
Bill Walton: 1 (77)
Moses Malone: 1 (83)
Dwyane Wade: 1 (06)
Kevin Garnett: 1 (08)
Dirk Nowitzki: 1 (11)
Kawhi Leonard: 1 (19)
Anthony Davis: 1 (20)

With a strict definition of "best player" only 21 guys in NBA history led their teams to championships (22 if we count Isiah...). And only 12 players have led their teams to 2+ titles and besides Curry those are almost universally ranked as the top 12 on most all-time lists.

[Nike D'Antoni]

But I see duplicates?

There could be one best player, not two?

[ArbitraryWater]

This is the most important accomplishment when determining who the GOAT is. Note that this doesn't have to be the best player in history in their primes but the one who accomplished the most with his teams. Greatness in basketball is about winning, more precisely winning as the best player on the team. Second banana and role player rings aren't counted.

To make this list you have to either be:
- the best player on a title-winning team OR
- arguably the best player on a title-winning team and play like a superstar

The second condition allows for some players in 1a/1b situations to get full credit for their rings. Note that those that do not play at superstar level but are arguably the best players on their teams like Billups in 2004 don't make this list. Teams that are full of really good but no great players are called ensemble teams and I listed the following champions since the advent of the shot-clock as ensemble teams:

1955 Nationals
1973 Knicks
1976 Celtics
1978 Bullets
1979 Sonics
1989 Pistons
1990 Pistons
2004 Pistons
2014 Spurs

Maybe some teams could be argued to be added to this list or perhaps removed but I feel good about it. Isiah Thomas was a tough one because he was clearly the best player on those Pistons but not making an All-NBA team in those years even in stacked leagues makes me just leave him off the list. It was a tough choice. He's almost a special case and I'd be willing to give him half credit.

Without further ado here is the list of players that won titles as the best player on their teams. Bolded are those players that won at least one ring as the clear-cut best player. It excludes players who won all of their rings as co-best players. Players who scored the same are listed in chronological order.

Bill Russell: 11 (57, 59-66, 68, 69)
Michael Jordan: 6 (91-93, 96-98)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 4 (71, 80, 82, 85)
Magic Johnson: 4 (82, 85, 87, 88)
Tim Duncan: 4 (99, 03, 05, 07)
Lebron James: 4 (12, 13, 16, 00)
John Havlicek: 3 (68, 69, 74)
Larry Bird: 3 (81, 84, 86)
Shaquille O'Neal: 3 (00, 01, 02)
Kobe Bryant: 3 (01, 09, 10)
Stephen Curry: 3 (15, 17, 18)
Wilt Chamberlain: 2 (67, 72)
Hakeem Olajuwon: 2 (94, 95)
Kevin Durant: 2 (17, 18)
Paul Arizin: 1 (56)
Bob Cousy: 1 (57)
Bob Pettit: 1 (58)
Jerry West: 1 (72)
Dave Cowens: 1 (74)
Rick Barry: 1 (75)
Bill Walton: 1 (77)
Moses Malone: 1 (83)
Dwyane Wade: 1 (06)
Kevin Garnett: 1 (08)
Dirk Nowitzki: 1 (11)
Kawhi Leonard: 1 (19)
Anthony Davis: 1 (20)

With a strict definition of "best player" only 21 guys in NBA history led their teams to championships (22 if we count Isiah...). And only 12 players have led their teams to 2+ titles and besides Curry those are almost universally ranked as the top 12 on most all-time lists.

So basically, its back to level.

[warriorfan]

This is the most important accomplishment when determining who the GOAT is. Note that this doesn't have to be the best player in history in their primes but the one who accomplished the most with his teams. Greatness in basketball is about winning, more precisely winning as the best player on the team. Second banana and role player rings aren't counted.

To make this list you have to either be:
- the best player on a title-winning team OR
- arguably the best player on a title-winning team and play like a superstar

The second condition allows for some players in 1a/1b situations to get full credit for their rings. Note that those that do not play at superstar level but are arguably the best players on their teams like Billups in 2004 don't make this list. Teams that are full of really good but no great players are called ensemble teams and I listed the following champions since the advent of the shot-clock as ensemble teams:

1955 Nationals
1973 Knicks
1976 Celtics
1978 Bullets
1979 Sonics
1989 Pistons
1990 Pistons
2004 Pistons
2014 Spurs

Maybe some teams could be argued to be added to this list or perhaps removed but I feel good about it. Isiah Thomas was a tough one because he was clearly the best player on those Pistons but not making an All-NBA team in those years even in stacked leagues makes me just leave him off the list. It was a tough choice. He's almost a special case and I'd be willing to give him half credit.

Without further ado here is the list of players that won titles as the best player on their teams. Bolded are those players that won at least one ring as the clear-cut best player. It excludes players who won all of their rings as co-best players. Players who scored the same are listed in chronological order.

Bill Russell: 11 (57, 59-66, 68, 69)
Michael Jordan: 6 (91-93, 96-98)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 4 (71, 80, 82, 85)
Magic Johnson: 4 (82, 85, 87, 88)
Tim Duncan: 4 (99, 03, 05, 07)
Lebron James: 4 (12, 13, 16, 00)
John Havlicek: 3 (68, 69, 74)
Larry Bird: 3 (81, 84, 86)
Shaquille O'Neal: 3 (00, 01, 02)
Kobe Bryant: 3 (01, 09, 10)
Stephen Curry: 3 (15, 17, 18)
Wilt Chamberlain: 2 (67, 72)
Hakeem Olajuwon: 2 (94, 95)
Kevin Durant: 2 (17, 18)
Paul Arizin: 1 (56)
Bob Cousy: 1 (57)
Bob Pettit: 1 (58)
Jerry West: 1 (72)
Dave Cowens: 1 (74)
Rick Barry: 1 (75)
Bill Walton: 1 (77)
Moses Malone: 1 (83)
Dwyane Wade: 1 (06)
Kevin Garnett: 1 (08)
Dirk Nowitzki: 1 (11)
Kawhi Leonard: 1 (19)
Anthony Davis: 1 (20)

With a strict definition of "best player" only 21 guys in NBA history led their teams to championships (22 if we count Isiah...). And only 12 players have led their teams to 2+ titles and besides Curry those are almost universally ranked as the top 12 on most all-time lists.

That list ends up being pretty accurate.

[SouBeachTalents]

Seems weird Willis Reed doesn't qualify averaging 24/14 in the playoffs while winning MVP & FMVP

[Airupthere]

The top 3 in that list are solid. I would have it

1. KAJ
then very close 2/3 for Bill/MJ.

[dankok8]

So basically, its back to level.

What do you mean?


That list ends up being pretty accurate.

Yep the first 12 bolded players on that list with 2+ titles are pretty much the top 12 all time.


Seems weird Willis Reed doesn't qualify averaging 24/14 in the playoffs while winning MVP & FMVP

I forgot to list him there. He does qualify. He was clearly the best player on the 1970 Knicks.

[8Ball]

Magic and Kareem both best players at same time?

[3ball]

Titles with a 1b sidekick < titles with true 2nd options that average far less

There should be a distinction between the two

aka Magic's titles with Kareem < Kobe's titles with Pau or Dirk's title with Terry

[dankok8]

Titles with a 1b sidekick < titles with true 2nd options that average far less

Magic's titles with Kareem < Kobe's titles with Pau or Dirk's title with Terry

You can use your criteria to separate players who won similar amounts. I think you're focusing too much on PPG though.

[3ball]

You can use your criteria to separate players who won similar amounts. I think you're focusing too much on PPG though.


ppg is all that matters

and team assists

[Manny98]

ppg is all that matters

and team assists
So defense, playmaking, intangibles, overall basketball IQ are completely irrelevant now

I can tell you have never touched a basketball in your life :facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

ppg is all that matters

and team assists
WOAT post

[3ball]

So defense, playmaking, intangibles, overall basketball IQ are completely irrelevant now





Team Assists Per Game in Finals


2014 Spurs.... 25.4
2014 Heat...... 15.2

2015 GSW.... 23.0
2015 Cavs.... 15.8

2017 GSW.... 29.4
2017 Cavs.... 21.6

2018 GSW.... 27.8
2018 Cavs.... 21.0


^^^ so the common thread in Lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists

So who cares about personal assists

Ball-dominators get 10 assists, while their teams get 13... Personal APG is completely meaningless...

5-7 apg is optimal to allow ball movement, and the biggest winners in history averaged 5-7 apg

[jlip]

I'm a huge Russell fan, but I don't think that we can include the 1969 title in this category. Yes, he was the head coach, leading rebounder, defensive anchor, and arguably its best passer, but...Now that I think about... Never mind. I just talked myself out of what I was going to say.

[8Ball]

ppg is all that matters

and team assists

Wrong.

Scoring title / highest PPG winners haven't won the championship in 21 years.

Dog shit accomplishment given out to the ball hog / chucker of the year.

[Manny98]

Team Assists Per Game in Finals


2014 Spurs.... 25.4
2014 Heat...... 15.2

2015 GSW.... 23.0
2015 Cavs.... 15.8

2017 GSW.... 29.4
2017 Cavs.... 21.6

2018 GSW.... 27.8
2018 Cavs.... 21.0


^^^ so the common thread in Lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists

So who cares about personal assists

Ball-dominators get 10 assists, while their teams get 13... Personal APG is completely meaningless...

5-7 apg is optimal to allow ball movement, and the biggest winners in history averaged 5-7 apg
LeBron and Magic say otherwise

[Manny98]

Bill Russell has the strongest GOAT argument as he dominated his era more so than any other player

11 championships in 13 years, nuff said

[3ball]

LeBron and Magic say otherwise


Many people think Kareem is the goat

So Magic only went 5-4 with the alleged goat - his underachieving Finals record occurred for the same reason lebron is 4-6.... suboptimal ball-dominance..

they have a combined 9-10 record in the Finals, which is trash compared to ridiculous winning records for off-ball guys like Kobe, MJ, Durant, Kawhi, Curry, Bird

So yikes... you're wrong again.. and more wrong than normal on this one.. the historical record shows that 5-7 apg wins the most (allows ball movement)

[SouBeachTalents]

Many people think Kareem is the goat

So Magic only went 5-4 with the alleged goat - his underachieving Finals record occurred for the same reason lebron is 4-6.... suboptimal ball-dominance..

they have a combined 9-10 record in the Finals, which is trash compared to ridiculous winning records for off-ball guys like Kobe, MJ, Durant, Kawhi, Curry, Bird

So yikes... you're wrong again.. and more wrong than normal on this one
LeBron & Magic have more titles than the bolded, and more FMVP's than Kobe

[Manny98]

Many people think Kareem is the goat

So Magic only went 5-4 with the alleged goat - his underachieving Finals record occurred for the same reason lebron is 4-6.... suboptimal ball-dominance.

So Magic/Lebron are only 9-10 in the Finals overall, compared to ridiculous winning records for off-ball guys like Kobe, MJ, Durant, Kawhi, Curry, Bird

So yikes... you're wrong again.. and more wrong than normal on this one
Yh Magic and LeBron didn't get to face the cupcake Portland Trailblazers in the finals every year so it's hard to go perfect when you have to face actual competition

You know the same Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons that used your hero as a literal punching bag every year in the playoffs :oldlol:

MJ would have a losing finals record as well if he had to face Birds Celtics,Curry Warriors and Tim Duncan's Spurs every year in the finals

[3ball]

LeBron & Magic have more titles than the bolded, and more FMVP's than Kobe


Magic and Lebron are losers

9-10 in the Finals despite goat supporting casts

Otoh, off-ball players have winning Finals records because they play a better brand of basketball (ball movement) that allows higher team ceilings

The historical record speaks for itself

[Manny98]

MJ was 1-5 against the Bad Boys and the Celtics in the playoffs

Yikes :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Magic and Lebron are losers

9-10 in the Finals despite goat supporting casts

Otoh, off-ball players have winning Finals records because they play a better brand of basketball (ball movement) that allows higher team ceilings

The historical record speaks for itself
So they're losers despite having more titles than the players you listed. Got it

https://fadeawayworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/The-Players-With-The-Most-NBA-Finals-MVPs.jpg?x94314

Losers

[3ball]

MJ was 1-5 against the Bad Boys and the Celtics in the playoffs

Yikes :oldlol:


MJ was 1-5 with low seeds

Lebron is 1-5 with high seeds against detroit, orlando, boston, spurs and dallas from 06-11'

So Jordan lost with 8 seeds to a couple dynasties, while lebron loses with high seeds to....... EVERYONE

:roll:

[Manny98]

MJ was 1-5 with low seeds

Lebron is 1-5 with high seeds against detroit, orlando, boston, spurs and dallas from 06-11'

So Jordan lost with 8 seeds to a couple dynasties, while lebron loses with high seeds to....... EVERYONE

:roll:
The point is that MJ struggled against atg teams

You knock Magic and LeBron for having losing finals records yet refuse to acknowledge that Jordan would have a losing finals record himself if he had to go up against Birds Celtics and the Bad Boys instead of the Portland Trailblazers

[tpols]

Interestingly enough, the warriors went from a middle of the pack playoff team to dynasty only when Curry relinquished his 9 assists per game average down to 6, and allowed others to playmake more and even became a dime target for them with his off ball play and shooting ability. It is very true that ball movement based offenses are much harder to defend than ball dominance based ones, given equal talent.

[SouBeachTalents]

Interestingly enough, the warriors went from a middle of the pack playoff team to dynasty only when Curry relinquished his 9 assists per game average down to 6, and allowed others to playmake more and even became a dime target for them with his off ball play and shooting ability. It is very true that ball movement based offenses are much harder to defend than ball dominance based ones, given equal talent.
Or, could be Curry, Klay & Dray all hitting their primes simultaneously while adding Kerr as coach

[tpols]

Or, could be Curry, Klay & Dray all hitting their primes simultaneously while adding Kerr as coach

Dray doesn't exist if Curry wants to get 10 assists every game. That would mean Curry would be dribbling the ball all game long and giving no shine to Dray. He was a 2nd round pick who never wouldve had a chance of playing as well as he did if Curry didn't hand over a big slice of his dribbling and passing opportunities, AND become a play finisher for Drays passing. He gifted him a double whammy, and it elevated the ceiling of the team.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dray doesn't exist if Curry wants to get 10 assists every game. That would mean Curry would be dribbling the ball all game long and giving no shine to Dray. He was a 2nd round pick who never wouldve had a chance of playing as well as he did if Curry didn't hand over a big slice of his dribbling and passing opportunities, AND become a play finisher for Drays passing. He gifted him a double whammy, and it elevated the ceiling of the team.

so nowhere along the way would any other player have noticed that dray himself has improved a lot?

It just would never come to daylight?

u have some weird visions regarding this sport

[MaxPlayer]

ppg is all that matters


Casual Alert!

[Axe]

ppg is all that matters

and team assists
What a scum

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Titles as best player at 29 years old:

Kawhi: 2
LeBron: 2
Jordan: 3
Kareem: 1

So Kawhi is right there in the mix with the other goat level players.

[Axe]

Titles as best player at 29 years old:

Kawhi: 2
LeBron: 2
Jordan: 3
Kareem: 1

So Kawhi is right there in the mix with the other goat level players.
Unfortunately role player fmvp from 2014 cannot count

[tpols]

so nowhere along the way would any other player have noticed that dray himself has improved a lot?

It just would never come to daylight?

u have some weird visions regarding this sport

Of course it would never come to daylight. If you pair dray with a ball dominator and don't let him have any significant passing role he'd be greatly reduced as a player. It would tank a big part of what made him play well.

[SouBeachTalents]

Titles as best player at 29 years old:

Kawhi: 2
LeBron: 2
Jordan: 3
Kareem: 1

So Kawhi is right there in the mix with the other goat level players.
14 ppg role player rings don't count

[dankok8]

Yea... Kawhi's 2014 title doesn't count. Those Spurs were a clear ensemble team.

[3ball]

So they're losers despite having more titles than the players you listed. Got it

https://fadeawayworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/The-Players-With-The-Most-NBA-Finals-MVPs.jpg?x94314

Losers


ball-dominators like Magic/Lebron are losers on the championship level - they have a combined losing record in the Finals (9-10), and that includes Magic's asterisk ring in 88' (bad call in Game 7)

Who cares about Finals appearances because Finals appearances are conference-dependant.. aka Lebron only beat the West 4 times, so he would've made only 4 Finals if his career was out West.. that's why winning the Finals MATTERS - otherwise, the Finals appearance was conference-dependant

[3ball]

Yea... Kawhi's 2014 title doesn't count. Those Spurs were a clear ensemble team.


and 1a/1b rings count less than 1st option/2nd option rings

[SATAN]

1-9

[Axe]

Yea... Kawhi's 2014 title doesn't count. Those Spurs were a clear ensemble team.
Hbk dimwit's iq just got exposed once more

[3ball]

1-9


lebron is 1-9 against championship teams too

except lebron lost with high seeds, while mj had the 8 seed

losing as the 8 seed isn't a knock, so if that's the worst thing mj did, then that proves he's goat..

Jordan only lost with the worst odds, which is how the goat is supposed to lose - it isn't a knock and it's actually quite dumb to think it is

[SATAN]

losing as the 8 seed isn't a knock, so if that's the worst thing mj did, then that proves he's goat..



guys he's running out a material

[3ball]

guys he's running out a material


You just posted 1-9

[SATAN]

1-9

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Unfortunately role player fmvp from 2014 cannot count

Kawhi's role was to average 24PPG on 69% FG and destroy LeBron for 3 straight finals wins. That counts in my eyes.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

14 ppg role player rings don't count

Taking away 4 different bill russell rings as well? Clown talk from you, as expected.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yea... Kawhi's 2014 title doesn't count. Those Spurs were a clear ensemble team.

Like every bill russell ring.

[3ball]

Kawhi's role was to average 24PPG on 69% FG and destroy LeBron for 3 straight finals wins. That counts in my eyes.


True dat

And who's guarding these guys?



Kawhi.... 24 on 70%

Iggy....... 16 on 57% (doubled regular season average)

Durant... 35 on 55%

Durant... 28 on 55%

[HBK_Kliq_2]

True dat

And who's guarding these guys?



Kawhi.... 24 on 70%

Iggy....... 16 on 57% (doubled regular season average)

Durant... 35 on 55%

Durant... 28 on 55%

Exactly and even though guys like Kawhi\Iggy didn't score as much through out the playoff run, they still knew they could light up that piece of shit Lebron and shut his ass down.

[SATAN]

HBK's bitterness towards LeBron is slowly taking him down the 3ball-esque path of insanity :oldlol:

[tpols]

Kawhi's role was to average 24PPG on 69% FG and destroy LeBron for 3 straight finals wins. That counts in my eyes.

Kawhi was his usual efficient self but 14/7/2? Nah that aint a superstar ring. He style on Bran and won a FMVP but so did Iggy and he averaged 10/5/4 in the 2015 playoffs and clearly wasn't a superstar. There's just something about opposing small forwards in that matchup... Kawhi, Iggy, Durant, Butler all have career numbers vs him in the playoffs. Even old Shawn Marion.

[tpols]

True dat

And who's guarding these guys?



Kawhi.... 24 on 70%

Iggy....... 16 on 57% (doubled regular season average)

Durant... 35 on 55%

Durant... 28 on 55%

You forgot Jimmy Butler. 27 on 55% shooting. 134 ORTG. Unbelievable.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kawhi was his usual efficient self but 14/7/2? Nah that aint a superstar ring. He style on Bran and won a FMVP but so did Iggy and he averaged 10/5/4 in the 2015 playoffs and clearly wasn't a superstar. There's just something about opposing small forwards in that matchup... Kawhi, Iggy, Durant, Butler all have career numbers vs him in the playoffs. Even old Shawn Marion.

What do you mean 14/7/2?

I thought Kyrie did 41 in 2016, so surely Kawhi did 25 on 70% in 2014?

Or diff standard?

[tpols]

What do you mean 14/7/2?

I thought Kyrie did 41 in 2016, so surely Kawhi did 25 on 70% in 2014?

Or diff standard?

In the 2015 playoffs in it's entirety, Kyrie averaged 25+ ppg with elite splits and way higher advanced numbers than 2014 Kawhi. He averaged more points in the whole playoff run than Kawhi did in those 3 games where he burst bran down. Now THAT is a superstar ring.

You better show some gratitude for what he did.

[Axe]

Kawhi's role was to average 24PPG on 69% FG and destroy LeBron for 3 straight finals wins. That counts in my eyes.
Dude wasn't alone when he did it in that finals tho

[Hey Yo]

In the 2015 playoffs in it's entirety, Kyrie averaged 25+ ppg with elite splits and way higher advanced numbers than 2014 Kawhi. He averaged more points in the whole playoff run than Kawhi did in those 3 games where he burst bran down. Now THAT is a superstar ring.

You better show some gratitude for what he did.

Kyrie missed 7gms total in the 2015 postseason including 5 in the Finals and 2 in the ECF.

[tpols]

Kyrie missed 7gms total in the 2015 postseason including 5 in the Finals and 2 in the ECF.

*2016.

What our dear friend was referencing.

But nice catch chico.

[DMAVS41]

Not all titles won as the best player are equal though.

Going back to the Dirk vs. KG stuff...KG's 08 title was won in much easier circumstances with a better supporting cast. Can't count those two titles equally.

[3ball]

Not all titles won as the best player are equal though.

Going back to the Dirk vs. KG stuff...KG's 08 title was won in much easier circumstances with a better supporting cast. Can't count those two titles equally.


Exactly.. Dirk produced far more than any teammate - so it was a 1st option/2nd option deal, while KG's ring was a shared effort (1a/1b.. even 1c)

Similarly, Lebron's runs in 11', 16', and 20' were 1a/1b situations, while Jordan's 6 rings were won with a true 2nd option that always averaged far less

[dankok8]

Not all titles won as the best player are equal though.

Going back to the Dirk vs. KG stuff...KG's 08 title was won in much easier circumstances with a better supporting cast. Can't count those two titles equally.

I agree with your general point that not all titles are equal.