Is/was Kawhi a better defender than MJ?

[AirBonner]

I think Kawhi's the better defender, he has two DPOY's to Jordans 1. Jordan was overall more explosive, but I think Kawhis explosiveness is comparable to 98 Jordan. 94-95 and Wizards Jordan also had comparable explosiveness wise to Kawhi.

[3ball]

In prior eras, perimeter players weren't involved defensively in most plays because it was a post-up format, so big men had the defensive impact and won the DPOY's...

guys like Jordan had to be experts at coming from the weakside for a block, steal, or disruption, which MJ was goat at - no one could fly across court and block a big from the weakside like Michael

So in today's perimeter game where perimeter players are involved in stopping every play, Jordan's impact would stand out the most (more than Kawhi) and he'd be DPOY every single season.. Regardless, despite being in the big man era, Jordan was top 5 DPOY from 88-98' (and scoring champ, aka the top level on both sides of the ball)

[AirBonner]

In prior eras, perimeter players weren't involved defensively in most plays because it was a post-up format, so big men had the defensive impact and won the DPOY's...

guys like Jordan had to be experts at coming from the weakside for a block, steal, or disruption, which MJ was goat at - no one could fly across court and block a big from the weakside like Michael

So in today's perimeter game where perimeter players are involved in stopping every play, Jordan's impact would stand out the most (more than Kawhi) and he'd be DPOY every single season.. Regardless, despite being in the big man era, Jordan was top 5 DPOY from 88-98' (and scoring champ, aka the top level on both sides of the ball)

The thing is MJ only had to worry about the paint. Meanwhile modern nba has a lot of ground to cover. Also 2>1

[AirBonner]

The thing is MJ only had to worry about the paint. Meanwhile modern nba has a lot of ground to cover. Also 2>1

Conclusion: Kawhi won two DPOY while having to cover more ground.

[dankok8]

Kawhi is a hell of a defender so this comparison is close. My gut tells me that MJ from 1988-1991 was a bit better because his athleticism made him so disruptive. Stylistically on defense, there are some similarities between them like the lightning-quick hands.

[3ball]

Conclusion: Kawhi won two DPOY while having to cover more ground.


Kawhi is closer to the action and a part of the PNR action/defense - he impacts the play by default of just being out there (and a part of the play)

Jordan wasn't even a part of the play because his man was on the perimeter and the ball would be on the block.. it was nearly impossible for Jordan to impact the play, yet he was a top 5 DPOY every year.. So he'd be the DPOY in today's game by virtue of being automatically involved in every play

[paksat]

hard to tell simply because of one thing that I think even 3ball can agree on, competition.

kawhi is guarding a bunch of 3 point chucking twitter typing divas, so we wouldn't really know what he would be like in previous eras. In the early 2000's he'd be dealing with anyone from prime gilbert arenas, to prime kobe, to young and great wade, to Tracy mcgrady. All of these guys have tremendous differences in how they play the game, as well as how their teams play the game ( a lot of variety then, not just chuck a 3 if you're not even open ).

At the end of the day, we'd have to see how he would do against better competition and more elite players. I think he'd be fine personally, and if jordan was ever overrated at one thing it would have to me man to man defense. That doesn't mean jordan was BAD at it, it's just that everyone has some weaknesses compared to other parts of their game.

[3ball]

hard to tell simply because of one thing that I think even 3ball can agree on, competition.

kawhi is guarding a bunch of 3 point chucking twitter typing divas, so we wouldn't really know what he would be like in previous eras. In the early 2000's he'd be dealing with anyone from prime gilbert arenas, to prime kobe, to young and great wade, to Tracy mcgrady. All of these guys have tremendous differences in how they play the game, as well as how their teams play the game ( a lot of variety then, not just chuck a 3 if you're not even open ).

At the end of the day, we'd have to see how he would do against better competition and more elite players. I think he'd be fine personally, and if jordan was ever overrated at one thing it would have to me man to man defense. That doesn't mean jordan was BAD at it, it's just that everyone has some weaknesses compared to other parts of their game.


That's funny

Only Jordan held his defensive matchup to 35-44% shooting in nearly every series of his career

Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Dumars, Miller, Majerle, and many more - they all shot like shit against him

Otoh, everyone shot well against Pippen - Worthy, Kersey, Dumas, Schrempf, X-man, Dominique - nearly every matchup shot 50-60% against him... I suppose a hobbled Worthy "only" shot 48% and Dominique averaged 30 on 44% (15 on 40% for pippen)

Ultimately, Jordan was top 5 dpoy and scoring champ from 88-98' (the top level on both sides of the ball)

[AirBonner]

3ball really can’t concede anything when it comes to MJ. He probably thinks MJ was a better defender than Hakeem

[3ball]

3ball really can’t concede anything when it comes to MJ. He probably thinks MJ was a better defender than Hakeem


Kawhi would just blend in during the 80's and 90's and not necessarily recognized as a great defender

His perimeter prowess would be useless back then

[Hey Yo]

DPOY w/o hand checking >>>> just the opposite

[Micku]

MJ had a better motor on the help defense. He was more active in that front. He gambled on the passing lane a lot, but imo, he was the best at it. Due to his quickness. He quick to go back on the defense if it fails. Most of the time it's great, but other times it does leave'em open. But he was great with the trap, and was able to poke the balls with his large hands. But with this, he was one of the best in steals in nba history. I think he is top 3, only Kidd and Stockton are better.

MJ was just in general quicker with the help and one of the best SGs shot blocker.

One on one he was a beast, but it's hard to gauge who is the best one one due to them playing in different eras. Hand checking, different philosophies, pacing, rules, etc. There are vids where MJ would keep up with IT, keeping in front of him. Joe Dumars. Fight over screens to shut down Reggie later in his career. He played solid d against Magic too, despite that game 1 and 2 in the NBA finals. The only thing you could properly compare is the physical attributes and the footwork. How well could MJ stick with his opponent and was he patient enough, and could he contest.

Some defensive stats like DRtg are deceiving and it isn't very kind to guards in the first place. It depends on the line up, how the league plays, and etc. But guards are limited to how they could impact the floor on defense anyway compared to a bigger player.

Kawhi has similar hands to MJ, so whenever he does reach, he pokes the ball similarly.

Since Kawhi is bigger, he has more versatility. While he isn't as quick, he is stronger I think. He could cover more ground. I think it's hard to get pass him too, but what he lacks in speed, he makes up for it with his footwork, his length, and dem hands. At his peak, I would say his impact on the defensive end might've been greater.

Kawhi takes a calculative gamble on the passing lane similar to MJ. He isn't as good as MJ at this with the timing, probably due to lack of quickness, but Kawhi tries to make up for it with his length and hands.
Kawhi is smart with the help. Due to the rules, he has to go in and out of the paint with defensive 3 secs. MJ never had that problem. But with Kawhi, he is a big body that could disrupt and add in paint protection. Due to small ball also, he could potentially disrupt shots even more. He is also good at hedging with the opponents. Great IQ, and it also helps with that length.

According to B-ball reference, MJ had a DBPM of 4.2 at his peak in 88. This was the best in the league, and it's amazing for a guard to reach that height. But of course, b-ball version of DPBM isn't the end all to be all and there are stats out there, and it even says don't take it too seriously. Kawhi's peak of DBPM 3.1 in year 15. And 3 in year 16. DBPM doesn't mean who is the better defender tho, but how much impact you could have in your team.

Imo, I think MJ had more energy and is the best two way player out of the two. Like he could give you 35 ppg and could be a DPOY player at the same time.

Kawhi can't do that. He even said in a interview that he couldn't, and the Spurs had him at a specific role where he was able to do it more effectively. Nowadays, while he is good defensively, he reverse his energy for the offense. You could argue that it's harder to play defense today than it was 30 years ago, which I would agree. But I think in general, MJ had the freakiest energy. Playing in all 82 games like he did, 40 mpg, and playing at high level.

When Kawhi is focus, I think he may be a better defensive player. MJ is more feisty at the help and quicker, but Kawhi overall versatility may win him the edge for me in his Spurs days. But it's hard to compare across eras. Kawhi had more ground to cover, while MJ could sag off his defenders more cuz of the lack of 3pt. Since the spacing wasn't as good, MJ could get back easier.

But it's really close tho. I might change my mind and think MJ is better.

[AirBonner]

DPOY w/o hand checking >>>> just the opposite

Agree. Anyone can flail their arms at an offense

[paksat]

That's funny

Only Jordan held his defensive matchup to 35-44% shooting in nearly every series of his career

Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Dumars, Miller, Majerle, and many more - they all shot like shit against him

Otoh, everyone shot well against Pippen - Worthy, Kersey, Dumas, Schrempf, X-man, Dominique - nearly every matchup shot 50-60% against him... I suppose a hobbled Worthy "only" shot 48% and Dominique averaged 30 on 44% (15 on 40% for pippen)

Ultimately, Jordan was top 5 dpoy and scoring champ from 88-98' (the top level on both sides of the ball)

i'm not a lebron stan, idk why you're bringing up pippen.

[Micku]

hard to tell simply because of one thing that I think even 3ball can agree on, competition.

kawhi is guarding a bunch of 3 point chucking twitter typing divas, so we wouldn't really know what he would be like in previous eras. In the early 2000's he'd be dealing with anyone from prime gilbert arenas, to prime kobe, to young and great wade, to Tracy mcgrady. All of these guys have tremendous differences in how they play the game, as well as how their teams play the game ( a lot of variety then, not just chuck a 3 if you're not even open ).

At the end of the day, we'd have to see how he would do against better competition and more elite players. I think he'd be fine personally, and if jordan was ever overrated at one thing it would have to me man to man defense. That doesn't mean jordan was BAD at it, it's just that everyone has some weaknesses compared to other parts of their game.

I'm not a Jordan stan, but I don't know if his man to man defense was overrated tbh. I think we could get stats back down to the 97 season, and I think he kept his oFG% to similar numbers to Pippen. I think in both RS and playoffs.
You can check it here:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/opponent-shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612741&sort=20-24%20ft.%20FGA&dir=1

https://i.ibb.co/P4b6Qn9/defense.jpg


The stats is virtually similar with oFG%.

The problem is the quality of his opponent offensively. There were more offensive prowess in the perimeter section in the 80s. You could argue it was harder in the late 90s and early 00s, but at least in the early 00s you had more big name perimeter scoring players. But MJ showed what he could do already with a bunch of other stars, especially in his prime in the late 80s and early 90s. Lots of big name players. We just don't have the official stats for it.

But yeah, it's really hard to say whatever his man to man defense is overrated. You could say he got away with a lot of stuff tho. Ppl were complaining about it at the time. However, that's just the typical NBA fans whining and bitchin.

His oFG% numbers identical to Pippen. They both take turns defending the best perimeter player. So, take that what you will.

[FKAri]

pre-quad injury Kawhi > post-quad injury Kawhi

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi is the better defender because he has anchored elite defenses without his Pippen (Duncan). I would say when locked in, Kawhi is the greatest defender in NBA history and has the defensive impact of a center. MJ was very good in his own right but he never locked up guys like Kevin Durant\Lebron James\Giannis in playoff series.

[Micku]

Kawhi is the better defender because he has anchored elite defenses without his Pippen (Duncan). I would say when locked in, Kawhi is the greatest defender in NBA history and has the defensive impact of a center. MJ was very good in his own right but he never locked up guys like Kevin Durant\Lebron James\Giannis in playoff series.

To be fair, MJ did anchor that 88 Bulls team to elite too, with top 3. Pippen was there, but he was a rookie coming off the bench. His defensive prowess shot up in 91. With the stats, it appears MJ also did have similar impact as centers did. Not with defensive rating, but impact with the plus/minus of what we have available going to the late 80s and early 90s. According to B-ball reference, MJ 88 was within the top 10 of all time in defensive plus/minus. This is the current one:

1. Nate McMillan 5.53 1993-94
2. Manute Bol 4.68 1985-86
3. David Robinson* 4.58 1991-92
4. Manute Bol 4.55 1986-87
5. Mark Eaton 4.29 1982-83
6. Mark Eaton 4.24 1984-85
7. Michael Jordan* 4.16 1987-88
8. Giannis Antetokounmpo 4.08 2019-20
9. Giannis Antetokounmpo 4.06 2018-19
10. Chuck Hayes 4.06 2007-08

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dbpm_season.html

Of course that's not the end all to be all. There is real plus/minus too. And other stats to try to indicate which player is the best at impacting the game on within their team for defense. But it goes to show you how much of a beast MJ was considering.

But Kawhi when focus is a beast. As you said, still anchor elite defense without Duncan. He is in the same vein. But it's more so than just one on one, it's how he impact the team defense. It's very difficult to compare across eras, and you shouldn't. But given the rules change and how much offense is so spread out nowadays, it's really impressive kawhi did what he did with the Spurs. Especially without Duncan. Don't mind anyone giving him the nod over it. I think I do too, but it's hard to compare.

[3ball]

Kawhi is the better defender because he has anchored elite defenses without his Pippen (Duncan).






DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender






Jordan never locked up guys like Kevin Durant\Lebron James\Giannis in playoff series


.


Tony Allen, Beverly and others have locked up Durant

Iggy and Jimmy Butler locked up Lebron (see 15' playoffs)

And anyone locks up Giannis in the playoffs because he's a beginner jumpshooter

So you're vastly overrating Kawhi

Jordan literally locked up everyone he ever guarded, with almost no exceptions

Otoh, everyone got their normal averages against pippen - he has zero signature series locking someone down as the primary defender and the bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat.. any idea that he's a Duncan defender is simply dumb. Pippen didn't protect the rim and never locked anyone down... and he never produced a two-way team (elite on both ends)






Jordan never locked up guys like Kevin Durant\Lebron James\Giannis in playoff series


.


MJ guarded Magic for 70% of possessions and held him to 18 on 42% - Magic is better than anyone Kawhi guarded

[Gudo]

Not too familiar with this but how was Jordan’s defense as a Wizard?

[Micku]

MJ guarded Magic for 70% of possessions and held him to 18 on 42% - Magic is better than anyone Kawhi guarded

Eh. Magic in general didn't have a great playoffs that year in terms of FG%. He was always great at getting his tho. But his main thing was breaking the defense down and running the offense.

What MJ did was try to keep the pressure and get Magic tired. I think Pippen did a better job in game 2. But in game 3, he got fouled out if I can recall. MJ did a better job in game 4 and 5.

But imo, that isn't a good example of showing MJ defensive prowess. It was him guarding against IT, Joe Dumars, and Clyde. Those are more scoring threats. Magic was never about scoring per say. It was about his playmaking and overall offense. You can't double him. You can say at the very least, the Bulls made it though for him to score tho. Anything was better in game 1 tho. And Magic was just super smart at his shot selection.

But like I said, Magic main threat is his playmaking and running the offense. You would have to make an argument of how MJ stop the flow of the offense with Magic than him slowing down the scoring, cuz he was never a big time scoring threat of the likes of KD or James Harden. Although he is better than both at offense, but in a unique way.

[3ball]

Not too familiar with this but how was Jordan’s defense as a Wizard?


Jordan locked down Magic as the primary defender (18 on 42%), so that's a better player than Kawhi ever guarded

Heck, guys like Tony Allen, Beverly and others have locked up Durant

Iggy and Jimmy Butler locked up Lebron (see 15' playoffs)

And anyone locks up Giannis in the playoffs because he's a beginner jumpshooter

[Gudo]

Jordan locked down Magic as the primary defender (18 on 42%), so that's a better player than Kawhi ever guarded

Heck, guys like Tony Allen, Beverly and others have locked up Durant

Iggy and Jimmy Butler locked up Lebron (see 15' playoffs)

And anyone locks up Giannis in the playoffs because he's a beginner jumpshooter

No, I meant in his Wizards days. Was he still a decent defender at an older age?

[AirBonner]

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender






Tony Allen, Beverly and others have locked up Durant

Iggy and Jimmy Butler locked up Lebron (see 15' playoffs)

And anyone locks up Giannis in the playoffs because he's a beginner jumpshooter

So you're vastly overrating Kawhi

Jordan literally locked up everyone he ever guarded, with almost no exceptions

Otoh, everyone got their normal averages against pippen - he has zero signature series locking someone down as the primary defender and the bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat.. any idea that he's a Duncan defender is simply dumb. Pippen didn't protect the rim and never locked anyone down... and he never produced a two-way team (elite on both ends)






MJ guarded Magic for 70% of possessions and held him to 18 on 42% - Magic is better than anyone Kawhi guarded
So MJ played with an equal defensive player (equal defensive load) the majority of his career

[Thenameless]

Of the great wing defenders, I'd go:

Rodman

Jordan
Pippen/Kawhi

Rodman is clearly ahead of the other three. After that, I think Jordan was actually better than Pippen and Kawhi. Until Kawhi was in Toronto, he wasn't expected to carry a scoring load, along with being his team's best defender. If we were to take this in a vacuum, and Jordan could save all of his energy and effort, and concentrate only on defense, he would be better at it than either of Kawhi or Pippen, but still not quite as good as Rodman.

[tanibanana]

Its Kawhi... Kawhi won more DPOY in an era when trying to defend was hindered by the rules.

[kawhileonard2]

Kawhi was better, end of discussion.

[999Guy]

Kawhi would just blend in during the 80's and 90's and not necessarily recognized as a great defender

His perimeter prowess would be useless back then

You’re too dumb to realize people have been trained to believe Kawhi can walk on defensive water for the past 8 years. No one will go with you on this

What you just said is like saying Jordan would be Derozan today

[HBK_Kliq_2]

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender






Tony Allen, Beverly and others have locked up Durant

Iggy and Jimmy Butler locked up Lebron (see 15' playoffs)

And anyone locks up Giannis in the playoffs because he's a beginner jumpshooter

So you're vastly overrating Kawhi

Jordan literally locked up everyone he ever guarded, with almost no exceptions

Otoh, everyone got their normal averages against pippen - he has zero signature series locking someone down as the primary defender and the bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat.. any idea that he's a Duncan defender is simply dumb. Pippen didn't protect the rim and never locked anyone down... and he never produced a two-way team (elite on both ends)






MJ guarded Magic for 70% of possessions and held him to 18 on 42% - Magic is better than anyone Kawhi guarded

Pippen has 10 all defensive teams and anchored more elite teams without Jordan then Jordan without Pippen.

Magic isn't even close to the scorer that Lebron\Durant are or even Giannis. Magic was a passer who looked to shoot second.

Beverly shut down Durant hahaahah Durant averaged like 40PPG against him in the 2019 1st round

Locking up Lebron\Durant and eliminating them, that's what Kawhi did and he was the best player on his team while doing it. Nobody else in NBA history has done that.

Even Giannis is better then any big man that Jordan ever beat besides Shaq.

Jordan never locked up one superstar, the closest was the pass first Magic Johnson who is a rich man's Mark Jackson hahahhaha

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Eh. Magic in general didn't have a great playoffs that year in terms of FG%. He was always great at getting his tho. But his main thing was breaking the defense down and running the offense.

What MJ did was try to keep the pressure and get Magic tired. I think Pippen did a better job in game 2. But in game 3, he got fouled out if I can recall. MJ did a better job in game 4 and 5.

But imo, that isn't a good example of showing MJ defensive prowess. It was him guarding against IT, Joe Dumars, and Clyde. Those are more scoring threats. Magic was never about scoring per say. It was about his playmaking and overall offense. You can't double him. You can say at the very least, the Bulls made it though for him to score tho. Anything was better in game 1 tho. And Magic was just super smart at his shot selection.

But like I said, Magic main threat is his playmaking and running the offense. You would have to make an argument of how MJ stop the flow of the offense with Magic than him slowing down the scoring, cuz he was never a big time scoring threat of the likes of KD or James Harden. Although he is better than both at offense, but in a unique way.

One year? ok i guess. Pippen was already there though. Phil Jackson said that Pippen would tell everybody what to do on defense and where to be, so his impact was probably already being made even as a rookie.

[Axe]

Kawhi is the better defender because he has anchored elite defenses without his Pippen (Duncan). I would say when locked in, Kawhi is the greatest defender in NBA history and has the defensive impact of a center. MJ was very good in his own right but he never locked up guys like Kevin Durant\Lebron James\Giannis in playoff series.
Time for you to slurp kawhi's prick, young man.

[BigShotBob]

Teams wouldn't run plays on MJ's side of the court. He was the Deion Sanders of passing lanes.

That tells you all you need to know about who's better.

[paksat]

I'm not a Jordan stan, but I don't know if his man to man defense was overrated tbh. I think we could get stats back down to the 97 season, and I think he kept his oFG% to similar numbers to Pippen. I think in both RS and playoffs.
You can check it here:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/opponent-shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612741&sort=20-24%20ft.%20FGA&dir=1

https://i.ibb.co/P4b6Qn9/defense.jpg


The stats is virtually similar with oFG%.

The problem is the quality of his opponent offensively. There were more offensive prowess in the perimeter section in the 80s. You could argue it was harder in the late 90s and early 00s, but at least in the early 00s you had more big name perimeter scoring players. But MJ showed what he could do already with a bunch of other stars, especially in his prime in the late 80s and early 90s. Lots of big name players. We just don't have the official stats for it.

But yeah, it's really hard to say whatever his man to man defense is overrated. You could say he got away with a lot of stuff tho. Ppl were complaining about it at the time. However, that's just the typical NBA fans whining and bitchin.

His oFG% numbers identical to Pippen. They both take turns defending the best perimeter player. So, take that what you will.

I hate bringing this up because of the lebronze stans but..

he had immense trouble guadring Abdul-Rauf, and I mean look at his stats over the seasons. This guy isn't some wade/mcgrady, just go look on youtube at some of his games vs the bulls and you'll see mj getting absolutely cooked repeatedly.

John stockton used to absolutely shred him, look at :24, 1:13, 3:34 here and you see mj doesn't have the foot speed to keep up with the change of direction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myMvojT6zIc&ab_channel=memoismoney

at 2:41 you see none other than mj on the floor as well.

the rauf video I don't feel like looking for, but there's a point in the game where mj yells at scottie to switch with him because jordan is getting absolutely destroyed. It was the first time I had ever seen mj back down from adversity, but it happened and I think it was because he realized the whole world was watching him getting mauled by a scrawny muslim. This vid has a few times of him doing bad things to jordan but this one isn't it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BG4jCKumFM&ab_channel=RaphaelCohen


This vid isn't it either but this should show enough, mj gets rocked so hard that jackson orders a switch very early in the game and puts kerr on him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMwoAjQ5yas&t=387s&ab_channel=HalaalBilaalSteakNTake

Jordan is a great player, elite offensively, and a great help defender if there ever was one. He was also quite a good man to man defender, but everyone has weaknesses and this was his.

[ImKobe]

2013/2014 Kawhi is pretty damn close to MJ's best on defense, but I'd take Jordan's speed and motor over Kawhi's. Both pretty much have the same advantages with the hand size & wingspan but MJ's on a different level athletically.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Teams wouldn't run plays on MJ's side of the court. He was the Deion Sanders of passing lanes.

That tells you all you need to know about who's better.

Bird loved to run plays against MJ's bulls, 26PPG on 67% TS on him and swept him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2013/2014 Kawhi is pretty damn close to MJ's best on defense, but I'd take Jordan's speed and motor over Kawhi's. Both pretty much have the same advantages with the hand size & wingspan but MJ's on a different level athletically.

There isn't a difference between 2014 kawhi defense and 2020/21 kawhi defense. Stop listening to idiots. Kawhi still anchors elite defenses with scrubs like Lou Williams and Shamet logging major minutes.

[G0ATbe]

Kawhi at his best had a bigger defensive impact that MJ whilst not being allowed to handcheck. He shits on MJ in that regard.

[Mr Exlax]

I’d have to say Kawhi is better only because of the size advantage.

[Bronbron23]

Hard to say. Mj was quicker and more active especially in his prime but kawhi is a bit longer and still pretty quick and active. In this era with the rules and all the screens i'd say kawhi's is better because his length makes him more versatile as a defender. He can pretty much gaurd 1-4 where mj is more 1-3.

In mj's era where your allowed aggressively fighting through screens and because of this their was less of them i'd probably go with mj.

Either way you can't go wrong though.

[3ball]

.

Either way you can't go wrong though


.


Okay cool

So I'll choose the guy that averaged 12 more points and twice the assists, with better efficiency

[Bronbron23]

Okay I'll take the guy that averaged 12 more ppg and twice the assists, with better efficiency

Dude i ment you can't go wrong as far as who's better defensively. Mj is obviously the better player.

[3ball]

Dude i ment you can't go wrong as far as who's better defensively. Mj is obviously the better player.


If one guy is averaging 12 more points and double the assists WHILE PLAYING EQUAL DEFENSE, then he's the better defender

Surely if we asked mj to reduce his load by 12 ppg and half the assists, he would play better defense than Kawhi

[BigShotBob]

I hate bringing this up because of the lebronze stans but..

he had immense trouble guadring Abdul-Rauf, and I mean look at his stats over the seasons. This guy isn't some wade/mcgrady, just go look on youtube at some of his games vs the bulls and you'll see mj getting absolutely cooked repeatedly.

John stockton used to absolutely shred him, look at :24, 1:13, 3:34 here and you see mj doesn't have the foot speed to keep up with the change of direction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myMvojT6zIc&ab_channel=memoismoney

at 2:41 you see none other than mj on the floor as well.

the rauf video I don't feel like looking for, but there's a point in the game where mj yells at scottie to switch with him because jordan is getting absolutely destroyed. It was the first time I had ever seen mj back down from adversity, but it happened and I think it was because he realized the whole world was watching him getting mauled by a scrawny muslim. This vid has a few times of him doing bad things to jordan but this one isn't it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BG4jCKumFM&ab_channel=RaphaelCohen


This vid isn't it either but this should show enough, mj gets rocked so hard that jackson orders a switch very early in the game and puts kerr on him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMwoAjQ5yas&t=387s&ab_channel=HalaalBilaalSteakNTake

Jordan is a great player, elite offensively, and a great help defender if there ever was one. He was also quite a good man to man defender, but everyone has weaknesses and this was his.

To be fair, Abdul-Rauf and Stockton lit up everyone. It would be the equivalent of saying that Sidney Moncrief is an overrated man defender because he couldn't stop Bernard King.

Edit: But to be clear, MJ was out of his defensive peak by 93'. Any version of MJ from 86-90 wouldn't have had the same amount of trouble.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi at his best had a bigger defensive impact that MJ whilst not being allowed to handcheck. He shits on MJ in that regard.

Exactly and even though Jordan was the most hyped up player of all time, he still ended up with less defensive player of the year awards then Kawhi.

Also, kawhi in 2019 playoffs had a better scoring playoff run then any Jordan playoff run. 732 points on 62% TS while eliminating 3 of the greatest defensive anchors ever in Embiid/Giannis/Draymond. So kawhi is not only a better defender, better shooter, he's also a better playoff scorer.

[Micku]

I hate bringing this up because of the lebronze stans but..

he had immense trouble guadring Abdul-Rauf, and I mean look at his stats over the seasons. This guy isn't some wade/mcgrady, just go look on youtube at some of his games vs the bulls and you'll see mj getting absolutely cooked repeatedly.

John stockton used to absolutely shred him, look at :24, 1:13, 3:34 here and you see mj doesn't have the foot speed to keep up with the change of direction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myMvojT6zIc&ab_channel=memoismoney

at 2:41 you see none other than mj on the floor as well.

the rauf video I don't feel like looking for, but there's a point in the game where mj yells at scottie to switch with him because jordan is getting absolutely destroyed. It was the first time I had ever seen mj back down from adversity, but it happened and I think it was because he realized the whole world was watching him getting mauled by a scrawny muslim. This vid has a few times of him doing bad things to jordan but this one isn't it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BG4jCKumFM&ab_channel=RaphaelCohen


This vid isn't it either but this should show enough, mj gets rocked so hard that jackson orders a switch very early in the game and puts kerr on him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMwoAjQ5yas&t=387s&ab_channel=HalaalBilaalSteakNTake

Jordan is a great player, elite offensively, and a great help defender if there ever was one. He was also quite a good man to man defender, but everyone has weaknesses and this was his.

Hahaha!

Abdul-Rauf was a real one when facing the Bulls. But no one on the Bulls could stop him. They put Kerr, Harper, MJ on him. I knew about the other games post 96, but never watched'em. But just because a player lit someone up or beat him off the dribble, it isn't a case saying that he isn't a great defender. One on one or otherwise. Every great defender gets beat. And every great defensive team. Grant Hill beat Pippen and MJ off the dribble a few times. Isaiah Rider got his way. Etc. Some match ups work better than others. So when Pippen gets lit up, MJ would try. Or vice versa. It's similar throughout history of defenders. Like Tony Allen too, who I consider to be the best one on one perimeter defender, got beat. But you gott'a make the offensive player work harder. You can focus what the defender does off the ball and on ball.

MJ and Pip did it more than anybody in that era it seems, and the stats show indicated it at least with 97 and 98. There are plenty of vids that show it too. You can find them on youtube of MJ defense on Clyde, IT, Penny, etc. You find some of Pippens examples too with Mark, Bird, Magic. But if by overrated you mean MJ locks down anyone and nobody went off on him, then yeah sure. But the consistency is real key.

I was mostly talking about in 88-93 tho. That seems to be MJ's prime defensively. But MJ in 96 was great too.

Like for example, in 88 MJ was top 10 in Drtg that year too. But it's a little deceiving cuz because some players didn't play more than 35 games who was at the top. If you account players who played at least 60 games, MJ was top 4. Only trailing behind Hakeem, Roy Tarpley, and Karl Malone that year. But Drtg is a team stat. And it doesn't tell you who is the best defender really and you gott'a use a combination of stats and eye test to really see. But MJ had a crazy year with apparently the best DBPM with b-ball reference, top 10 of all time in nba history, top 10 Drtg in the league, best in the league with steals with 3.2, and average 1.6 blks. That's insane. Like without a doubt, an historic year that I don't think any perimeter player surpass in terms of stats. At least combination. There are few players who surpass that in terms of Drtg, who was the best in the league. But not like DBPM or anything. You gott'a take these stats into context tho. Comparing them across eras isn't the way to do it, as much as comparing it to that year's league best.


Saying all that, as you said, I think MJ's help defense shines more than his man to man defense. lol

Not that his man to man defense wasn't great. I think it is. I just think in 88, that was his best year in defensive impact.

[Axe]

Also, kawhi in 2019 playoffs had a better scoring playoff run then any Jordan playoff run. 732 points on 62% TS while eliminating 3 of the greatest defensive anchors ever in Embiid/Giannis/Draymond. So kawhi is not only a better defender, better shooter, he's also a better playoff scorer.
Thanks, load management, for making these possible for kawhi in the postseason.

[AirBonner]

Kawhi’s defensive assignments: Bron, Durant


MJ’s defensive assignments?

[paksat]

using player of the year awards for this or that is deceiving as well I must add

kobe got put on all defense teams when he wasn't even close to the defender he once was. This applies to jordan as well, as well as others.

[Bronbron23]

If one guy is averaging 12 more points and double the assists WHILE PLAYING EQUAL DEFENSE, then he's the better defender

Surely if we asked mj to reduce his load by 12 ppg and half the assists, he would play better defense than Kawhi

Nah Don't know about this in mj's case. He was a machine. He never gassed out.

It's definitely more impressive though i'll give u that

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi’s defensive assignments: Bron, Durant


MJ’s defensive assignments?

The car dealership regional manager Jeff Hornacek

[BigShotBob]

Kawhi’s defensive assignments: Bron, Durant


MJ’s defensive assignments?

John Stockton, Magic Johnson, Reggie Miller, Penny Hardaway, Shaq (snatch blocked him), Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Gary Payton, etc, etc.

[light]

I think Kawhi's the better defender, he has two DPOY's to Jordans 1. Jordan was overall more explosive, but I think Kawhis explosiveness is comparable to 98 Jordan. 94-95 and Wizards Jordan also had comparable explosiveness wise to Kawhi.

I don't think so. I think Kawhi's defense is overrated. Sorry not sorry. He's more of an accumulation over time defender, which is fine if you like that sort of thing. I do sometimes - and plenty of people prefer it.

MJ was more aggressive and intimidating. He was more like a pit bull. He gambled a lot more, which can be bad but for him it was good. Kawhi is more steady and calm.

[AirBonner]

For reference purposes Kawhi is better

[Smoke117]

Kawhi was a significantly better defensive player at his best...same as Pippen was. These days, though, Kawhi is lazy as hell on that side.

[tpols]

Kawhi was a significantly better defensive player at his best...same as Pippen was. These days, though, Kawhi is lazy as hell on that side.

That's a moot point since he was at his best without a superstar offensive burden. If you told MJ he could only score 15-20 PPG and focus 80% of his energy on defense he'd wipe Kawhi. Jordan's motor was far higher.

[Smoke117]

That's a moot point since he was at his best without a superstar offensive burden. If you told MJ he could only score 15-20 PPG and focus 80% of his energy on defense he'd wipe Kawhi. Jordan's motor was far higher.

Motor or not Jordan just wasn’t as good, period.