Doc Rivers on the GOAT Debate

[Nike D'Antoni]

Doc Rivers On The GOAT Debate: “For Me, Michael Is The Greatest Player. But LeBron Is Gonna Have The Greatest Career Ever.”

https://fadeawayworld.net/2021/02/05/doc-rivers-on-the-goat-debate-for-me-michael-is-the-greatest-player-but-lebron-is-gonna-have-the-greatest-career-ever/

[ThatCoolKid]

Therefore using Tom Brady logic Lebron is GOAT. Another one on our side :cheers:

[light]

There was a time when LeBron having a better career than Jordan seemed impossible, now it's a foregone conclusion.

Doc will be wrong in the end about the greatest player. It's inevitable that LeBron will take over that title in the popular mind. Jordan's supporters are an older demographic and after they leave the spotlight due to irrelevancy, retirement or death their voices will no longer be heard.

[TheGoatest]

So basically, he admits that his preference of Jordan over LeBron is opinion-based, and not fact-based.

[GOBB]

Greatest player does not = greatest career. Otherwise Kareem goes down as having the greatest basketball resume of all time. Dominated and won at every level.

[Airupthere]

MJ got the job done within a shorter timespan. Lebron is playing for longer, hence better career. But Lebron had to jump ship and form superteams to do this. Then you add this bubble/exhibition seasons, it only compounds to it.

[GOBB]

MJ got the job done within a shorter timespan. Lebron is playing for longer, hence better career. But Lebron had to jump ship and form superteams to do this. Then you add this bubble/exhibition seasons, it only compounds to it.

That’s dumb to say he had to jump ship when he’s taken a much lesser team to the nba finals that few have ever done. Bron can go to any team and they are playoff contenders. Not many can say that today. So stop downplaying and discrediting his impact. Makes you look like a bozo

[tpols]

Imagine if MJ played with...

Wade ~ Kobe
AD ~ Kareem
Kyrie ~ Kevin Johnson
Bosh ~ Kemp
Love ~ Coleman
Mo ~ Tim Hardaway

etc.

And then still won LESS... than what he won with Pippen AKA Iggy.

Imagine that.....

[GOBB]

Imagine if MJ played with...

Wade ~ Kobe
AD ~ Kareem
Kyrie ~ Kevin Johnson
Bosh ~ Kemp
Love ~ Coleman
Mo ~ Tim Hardaway

etc.

And then still won LESS... than what he won with Pippen AKA Iggy.

Imagine that.....

He won 6 titles, 2 3 peats and a season where they won 72gms. Had MJ played with them nothing changes. You can’t do any better than what he already done. And no he still would’ve retired.

And dumb comparison iggy = pippen

[3ball]

That’s dumb to say he had to jump ship when he’s taken a much lesser team to the nba finals that few have ever done. Bron can go to any team and they are playoff contenders. Not many can say that today. So stop downplaying and discrediting his impact. Makes you look like a bozo


Before the "decision", Lebron was a 1-trick pony with only 1 Finals run like Iverson, Dwight and Kidd.

So 1-star teams were routinely winning the East, yet he formed a super-team to ensure easy Finals runs (after failing as the league favorite from 09-11')

Ultimately, he needed an equal scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention for half his rings (16' and 20'), so his stats were easier.. Only Jordan never had an equal scoring teammate, so only he faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career.. Btw, even in 12' and 13', lebron only averaged 5 more than Wade in the Finals

[tpols]

He won 6 titles, 2 3 peats and a season where they won 72gms. Had MJ played with them nothing changes. You can’t do any better than what he already done. And no he still would’ve retired.

And dumb comparison iggy = pippen

With that help MJ would've won so much he would've quit basketball for another challenge even earlier. Pippen is an Iggy level talent and perfect comparison as a player. Top notch elite defender, great playmaker passer, might even be a better shooter. It's probably the most apt analogy of all that I listed.

[GOBB]

With that help MJ would've won so much he would've quit basketball for another challenge even earlier. Pippen is an Iggy level talent and perfect comparison as a player. Top notch elite defender, great playmaker passer, might even be a better shooter. It's probably the most apt analogy of all that I listed.

Iggy

Finals MVP
1x NBA All star
1x first team all defense
1x second team all defense


Pippen

7x All star
3x first team all nba
2x second team all nba
2x third team all nba
8x first team all defense
2x second team all defense

Voted on 50 all time greatest players

Pippen is not Iggy. Similarities? Yes. That’s where it stops. Calling Iggy an elite defender is a stretch if I ever saw one.

[3ball]

Iggy

Finals MVP
1x NBA All star
1x first team all defense
1x second team all defense


Pippen

7x All star
3x first team all nba
2x second team all nba
2x third team all nba
8x first team all defense
2x second team all defense

Voted on 50 all time greatest players

Pippen is not Iggy. Similarities? Yes. That’s where it stops. Calling Iggy an elite defender is a stretch if I ever saw one.


Iggy would have all those accolades if he was winning rings every year as 2nd option

Pippen's production is the same as Iggy's, but simply inflated by the winning spotlight into more accolades

You're forgetting that everyone in history needed an equal-scoring teammate for at least half their rings, so Jordan winning 6 with Pippen is unique/unprecedented.. aka Jordan would do the same with Iggy

Ultimately, everyone that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least one of the Finals.. but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only Jordan could win 3 with pippen

[StrongLurk]

Lebron is pretty much stuck at number two all time unless he does some really crazy stuff over the next three-four years.

You could argue that he is still battling Kareem for that number two spot before even mentioning MJ.

[tpols]

Calling Iggy an elite defender is a stretch if I ever saw one.

This is a bannable offense. Iggy literally won an FMVP for his defense. Pippen never came close.

[GOBB]

This is a bannable offense. Iggy literally won an FMVP for his defense. Pippen never came close.

So Iggy is an elite defender because one series he made Lebron work? The logic is astounding. Curry should’ve won. His impact off the floor vs on the floor is glaring. But I’m not here to argue that. Iggy was not an elite defender with only 2 all defensive teams in his long career. Just stop

[3ball]

So Iggy is an elite defender because one series he made Lebron work? The logic is astounding. Curry should’ve won. His impact off the floor vs on the floor is glaring. But I’m not here to argue that. Iggy was not an elite defender with only 2 all defensive teams in his long career. Just stop


Iggy would have all those accolades if he was winning rings every year as 2nd option

Pippen's production is the same as Iggy's, but simply inflated by the winning spotlight into more accolades

You're forgetting that everyone in history needed an equal-scoring teammate for at least half their rings, so Jordan winning 6 with Pippen is unique/unprecedented.. aka Jordan would do the same with Iggy

Ultimately, everyone that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least one of the Finals.. but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only Jordan could win 3 with pippen

[r0drig0lac]

6x nba champ 6x fmvp 5x fmvp dpoy, a lot of scoring champ....sorry Doc, but no

[Airupthere]

6x nba champ 6x fmvp 5x fmvp dpoy, a lot of scoring champ....sorry Doc, but no

And if you were to tell me those were achieved in a relatively much shorter span that would be crazy. Less talent needs to hang around for longer while forming superteams to boot.

[tpols]

So Iggy is an elite defender because one series he made Lebron work? The logic is astounding. Curry should’ve won. His impact off the floor vs on the floor is glaring. But I’m not here to argue that. Iggy was not an elite defender with only 2 all defensive teams in his long career. Just stop

Iggy has been an elite defender his whole career. What are you talking about one series?

What? It's literally his entire reputation.

I can't believe you're even making this argument.

[LAmbruh]

poor Kobe never included in these debates


always Lebron, just Lebron, and only Lebron

[GOBB]

Iggy has been an elite defender his whole career. What are you talking about one series?

What? It's literally his entire reputation.

I can't believe you're even making this argument.

An elite defender with only 2 all defensive team selections? You’re stupid.

[iamgine]

Iggy was an elite defender. He's just not Scottie Pippen.

It's like...Bradley Beal is an elite player. He's just not...Hakeem.

[GOBB]

Iggy was an elite defender. He's just not Scottie Pippen.

It's like...Bradley Beal is an elite player. He's just not...Hakeem.

Fair enough

[8Ball]

Iggy

Finals MVP
1x NBA All star
1x first team all defense
1x second team all defense


Pippen

7x All star
3x first team all nba
2x second team all nba
2x third team all nba
8x first team all defense
2x second team all defense

Voted on 50 all time greatest players

Pippen is not Iggy. Similarities? Yes. That’s where it stops. Calling Iggy an elite defender is a stretch if I ever saw one.

The Jordan stans are getting worst and worst. Dumber and dumber by day.

Tpols takes in the last 24 hours:

Mo Williams = Jamal Murray.

Iguodala = Scottie Pippen.


Iguodala never made 1 all nba team. Pippen made 8 all-Nba teams. Dear lord the brain no longer works.

[MaxPlayer]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0HlQ7LRalQqdWfao/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Iggy was an elite defender. He's just not Scottie Pippen.

It's like...Bradley Beal is an elite player. He's just not...Hakeem.


there's no actual proof that pippen was a better defender than Iggy, Shawn Marion or other good defenders... The winning spotlight simply gave Pippen accolades

Pippen has zero signature series as the primary defender where he locked anyone down like Iggy locked down lebron

So Pippen never shut anyone down as the primary defender or yielded great 2-way teams, so there's no proof that he was a better defender than Iggy, Shawn Marion or other good defensers

[8Ball]

10 all defence teams vs 2.

Peak Scottie Pippen is actually better than 2021 Anthony Davis.


Jordan played with elite of elites.

[TheGoatest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yFOX-FmMXU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg5Wr7kgrwM

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yFOX-FmMXU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg5Wr7kgrwM


Jordan caught up and blocked the first one

And the 2nd is in transition

[3ball]

.
Grant Hill bullies Pippen super-easy:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/4UeQlI.gif



Whereas MJ's superior aggressiveness and strength makes Grant Hill work super-hard:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/AXOd7a.gif



Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif

[3ball]

.
Pippen couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif) in 99' - Pippen is joke to him... But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

MJ was also goat at blocking shots from the help side on bigs - see his famous block on Ewing (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/FqA0f9.gif), and his blocks on Hakeem here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/_CiUgr.gif) (only MJ plays defense like that) and here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/7-w55S.gif), and shaq here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/LP59GS.gif) and here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/3ClBkF.gif).

[TheGoatest]

Jordan caught up and blocked the first one


https://images2.imagebam.com/63/d7/9b/5142df1369229788.png

Are you just going through life rejecting reality like 24/7?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qcccZy03s

[3ball]

https://images2.imagebam.com/63/d7/9b/5142df1369229788.png

Are you just going through life rejecting reality like 24/7?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qcccZy03s


He blocked it from behind before that

And you didn't respond to my posts showing that pippen was a bad defender vs quick ball-handlers.. he sucked

[3ball]

Pippen's horrific offense would destroy the ranking of Duncan, AD, or Gary Payton - they would never get away with such trash

Pippen gets away with it because the winning spotlight inflates his ordinary play

[iamgine]

there's no actual proof that pippen was a better defender than Iggy, Shawn Marion or other good defenders... The winning spotlight simply gave Pippen accolades

Pippen has zero signature series as the primary defender where he locked anyone down like Iggy locked down lebron

So Pippen never shut anyone down as the primary defender or yielded great 2-way teams, so there's no proof that he was a better defender than Iggy, Shawn Marion or other good defensers
Bolded is only opinion

[3ball]

Bolded is only opinion


Prove he was a great defender - otherwise, all you have is bullshit fan-speak

Show me his signature lockdown as the primary defender like Iggy has, or show me where his presence yielded a great 2-way team

There is zero evidence that he's a better defender than say, Shawn Marion

The eye test says Marion >>> tbh... See the gifs above

[TheGoatest]

He blocked it from behind before that

Considering your post history, I don't doubt that's what you see. I really don't. But you're insane.
What actually happened, and is backed up by video evidence is that the 2 inch taller, 10-20 pound heavier Grant made Jordan look like a fool and left him in the dust, then got off a clear shot attempt over a Luc Longley foul with neither of Jordan's arms anywhere near the ball Grant was still holding and in control over:

https://images2.imagebam.com/12/cd/d2/9c957f1369230412.png

https://images2.imagebam.com/4a/39/39/06b4f71369230435.png

https://images2.imagebam.com/16/13/91/4fd5de1369230218.png

[iamgine]

Prove he was a great defender - otherwise, all you have is bullshit fan-speak

Show me his signature lockdown as the primary defender like Iggy has, or show me where his presence yielded a great 2-way team

There is zero evidence that he's a better defender than say, Shawn Marion

The eye test says Marion >>> tbh... See the gifs above

Prove that the winning spotlight simply gave Pippen accolades.

[3ball]

Considering your post history, I don't doubt that's what you see. I really don't. But you're insane.
What actually happened, and is backed up by video evidence is that the 2 inch taller, 10-20 pound heavier Grant made Jordan look like a fool and left him in the dust, then got off a clear shot attempt over a Luc Longley foul with neither of Jordan's arms anywhere near the ball Grant was still holding and in control over:

https://images2.imagebam.com/12/cd/d2/9c957f1369230412.png

https://images2.imagebam.com/4a/39/39/06b4f71369230435.png

https://images2.imagebam.com/16/13/91/4fd5de1369230218.png

Your pics skip the part where Jordan blocks him from behind

I have it in gif but too lazy to find...

However, anyone can watch the clip and see Jordan catch up and block from behind

[3ball]

Prove that the winning spotlight simply gave Pippen accolades.


I already proved it by showing there's no actual Pippen performance to support his greater accolades than Iggy or Shawn or PG

infact, THEY'RE the ones with the signature performance that shows they deseved more accolades than Pippen - specifically, Paul George held lebron to 22 ppg and Iggy made Lebron play like Iverson in the Finals

Carry on tho

[TheGoatest]

Your pics skip the part where Jordan blocks him from behind

I have it in gif but too lazy to find...

However, anyone can watch the clip and see Jordan catch up and block from behind

Your brain skips the part on the definition of what a blocked shot is.

[iamgine]

I already proved it by showing there's no actual Pippen performance to support his greater accolades than Iggy or Shawn or PG

infact, THEY'RE the ones with the signature performance that shows they deseved more accolades than Pippen - specifically, Paul George held lebron to 22 ppg and Iggy made Lebron play like Iverson in the Finals

Carry on tho

It's only in your opinion that you showed that.

Others might not think you showed it at all.

[3ball]

It's only in your opinion that you showed that.

Others might not think you showed it at all.


zero signature performances

zero 2-way teams

equals...

overrated defender


And it's intuitive... If Shawn Marion had 6 rings as 2nd option, he'd have more accolades.. you forget that it's media members like rachel nichols voting on this stuff

[iamgine]

zero signature performances

zero 2-way teams

equals...

overrated defender


And it's intuitive... If Shawn Marion had 6 rings as 2nd option, he'd have more accolades.. you forget that it's media members like rachel nichols voting on this stuff

Thats your opinion tho

[dankok8]

Doc is right. And this boring boring discussion of GOAT is kind of dumb anyways because people have different criteria. And there are so many threads every day. But I'll chime in.

For me personally and I've thought a lot about this; the GOAT is someone who carries their teams to most titles because the purpose is to win but also someone who dominates their competition individually and never gets outplayed on the basketball court. So essentially dominates and wins. Russell won but didn't always dominate. Kareem in his prime dominated but rarely won. Lebron won a fair amount and will win more IMO but didn't always dominate (2007, 2011, 2014, 2017, 2018) relative to competition. That leaves MJ who led his team to the second most championships and was never outplayed in a playoff series. That's why I lot of people instinctively pick MJ as the GOAT.

[3ball]

Thats your opinion tho


Who do you trust more:

a) your own intuitive logic based on available evidence

b) or someone like rachel nichols (all-nba voter) that front-runs and votes for the champ instead of actually doing their job and determining the best defenders


Again, if Shawn Marion had 6 rings as 2nd option, he'd have more accolades..

[rmt]

For me personally and I've thought a lot about this; the GOAT is someone who carries their teams to most titles because the purpose is to win but also someone who dominates their competition individually and never gets outplayed on the basketball court. So essentially dominates and wins. Russell won but didn't always dominate. Kareem in his prime dominated but rarely won. Lebron won a fair amount and will win more IMO but didn't always dominate (2007, 2011, 2014, 2017, 2018) relative to competition. That leaves MJ who led his team to the second most championships and was never outplayed in a playoff series. That's why I lot of people instinctively pick MJ as the GOAT.

That's a pretty good explanation.

I'll add that the complete DOMINANCE during MJ's run will always (in my mind) overshadow Lebron's spread out championships with different teams and failures on the big stage (FINALS above) - no matter how many rings he eventually ends up with. His Miami run, during his prime with good teammates, just BARELY resulted in 2 rings and ended on three (average) 19 point losses. His piece de resistance, of course, is the 2016 ring but smack in the middle of and overshadowed by the Warriors' own dominant run.

It might seem that I am overly critical of Lebron but I experienced his Miami (where I live) stint up close - from the local radio stations/sports shows, local TV and internet/cable exposure compared to the worldwide phenomena that was MJ and the Bulls from afar (with only national network broadcasts).

[bullettooth]

There was a time when LeBron having a better career than Jordan seemed impossible, now it's a foregone conclusion.

Doc will be wrong in the end about the greatest player. It's inevitable that LeBron will take over that title in the popular mind. Jordan's supporters are an older demographic and after they leave the spotlight due to irrelevancy, retirement or death their voices will no longer be heard.

No, LeBron will ultimately be seen as a modern day Wilt; a glorified finals loser.

[8Ball]

LeBron is only seen that way to neanderthals.

Whom are going extinct one by one.

[Micku]

Doc is right. And this boring boring discussion of GOAT is kind of dumb anyways because people have different criteria. And there are so many threads every day. But I'll chime in.

For me personally and I've thought a lot about this; the GOAT is someone who carries their teams to most titles because the purpose is to win but also someone who dominates their competition individually and never gets outplayed on the basketball court. So essentially dominates and wins. Russell won but didn't always dominate. Kareem in his prime dominated but rarely won. Lebron won a fair amount and will win more IMO but didn't always dominate (2007, 2011, 2014, 2017, 2018) relative to competition. That leaves MJ who led his team to the second most championships and was never outplayed in a playoff series. That's why I lot of people instinctively pick MJ as the GOAT.

That's pretty much what I think. Although I don't think there is a single GOAT, but MJ was unique in that not only was he the best player in the league with the best stats, but also had the best teams, and the best moments. Even with the playoffs, his stats went up. I don't think any other player had the combination of dominance like he had. At least not as long. Wilt dominated the stats, but not the chips. Russell dominated the chips, not the stats. Kareem in his prime didn't win as much. Shaq in his prime was the best, but not enough chips. Magic and Bird were unique in stats, but neither show the lvl of dominance on both sides of the floor like MJ did. LeBron has the stats, but not as much chips and a few failures along the way that he should've won, but got upset.

MJ was the only person in nba history to be able to dominant the league like he did.

And I find it amazing that ppl would say LeBron would probably have the better career, but MJ is the better player. It just shows dominant MJ was. MJ did so much in those short years with the Bulls, like 13 seasons, but really like 11 seasons since one season he was out and the other he barely came back from retirement, that LeBron in his 18th is still catching up. Despite how well he has been playing.

[rmt]

LeBron is only seen that way to neanderthals.

Whom are going extinct one by one.

And what - Lebron fans are gonna live forever? I wonder what will be said of Lebron 23 years after he retires.

[bullettooth]

I wonder what will be said of Lebron 23 years after he retires.

A glorified finals loser.

[Bankaii]

Imagine if MJ played with...

Wade ~ Kobe
AD ~ Kareem
Kyrie ~ Kevin Johnson
Bosh ~ Kemp
Love ~ Coleman
Mo ~ Tim Hardaway

etc.

And then still won LESS... than what he won with Pippen AKA Iggy.

Imagine that.....
The amount of dumb shit this dude says is outstanding.

[riggyrich]

Lmao there is guys in this thread actually comparing Iggy to Pippen. The level of IQ in this forum is astonishing.

[riggyrich]

.
Pippen couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif) in 99' - Pippen is joke to him... But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

MJ was also goat at blocking shots from the help side on bigs - see his famous block on Ewing (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/FqA0f9.gif), and his blocks on Hakeem here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/_CiUgr.gif) (only MJ plays defense like that) and here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/7-w55S.gif), and shaq here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/LP59GS.gif) and here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/3ClBkF.gif).

You are literally trying to create anything possible to discredit Scottie Pippen in a extremely sad attempt to credit Jordan even more. Like you even go as far as calling one of the greatest 2nd option players to ever grace the basketball court only to credit MJ even more.

And... stop posting so damn much and get a job plz.

[3ball]

You are literally trying to create anything possible to discredit Scottie Pippen in a extremely sad attempt to credit Jordan even more. Like you even go as far as calling one of the greatest 2nd option players to ever grace the basketball court only to credit MJ even more.

And... stop posting so damn much and get a job plz.


]Playoff PPG

11' Wade...... 24.5
11' Lebron.... 23.7

16' Kyrie...'.... 25.2
16' Lebron.... 26.3

20' AD........... 27.8
20' Lebron.... 27.7


^^^ equal scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, which makes stats easier

Don't be embarrassed for Lebron - everyone in history needed an equal scoring teammate for at least half their rings (they needed a 1b).

Only MJ won a bunch of rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career - this tougher coverage gives him maximum ring quality and stat quality.. rings with 2nd option > rings with 1b

In lebron's case, he can't win with true 2nd options because he can't shoot well at the higher volume required (more contested jumpshooting required).. so he needs an elite 1st option to play sidekick

[Airupthere]

And what - Lebron fans are gonna live forever? I wonder what will be said of Lebron 23 years after he retires.

20 years from now people will watch videos and see the crabwalk, bow legged jumpshots, uncoordinated footwork, and horrible flopping and find that he got away with stat padding due to his size+athleticism left unchecked in a softened league. None of his game will look fundamental for future kids to pattern their game after. Heck no one is emulating him even today.

Look at Lebron, if not for his size he is Carsen Edwards. Except Edwards has a better shooting form.

[RRR3]

Imagine if MJ played with...

Wade ~ Kobe
AD ~ Kareem
Kyrie ~ Kevin Johnson
Bosh ~ Kemp
Love ~ Coleman
Mo ~ Tim Hardaway

etc.

And then still won LESS... than what he won with Pippen AKA Iggy.

Imagine that.....
This is permaban worthy.

[3ball]

This is permaban worthy.



2010 Wade.... 28 PER... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe..... 21 PER... 4.4 BPM

2010 Bosh.... 6x all-star... 1x all-nba
2010 Pau...... 1x all-star... 0x all-nba


^^^ so lebron teamed up with Kobe-Pau II but went 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss

That's the worst anyone could do and nowhere near goat

Then he goes 1/4 with the guy that destroyed curry (better sidekick than durant had)

Then he's lottery in the West without AD.. so he teams up with all the best talent and mostly loses with it

[GOBB]

Doc is right. And this boring boring discussion of GOAT is kind of dumb anyways because people have different criteria. And there are so many threads every day. But I'll chime in.

For me personally and I've thought a lot about this; the GOAT is someone who carries their teams to most titles because the purpose is to win but also someone who dominates their competition individually and never gets outplayed on the basketball court. So essentially dominates and wins. Russell won but didn't always dominate. Kareem in his prime dominated but rarely won. Lebron won a fair amount and will win more IMO but didn't always dominate (2007, 2011, 2014, 2017, 2018) relative to competition. That leaves MJ who led his team to the second most championships and was never outplayed in a playoff series. That's why I lot of people instinctively pick MJ as the GOAT.

I personally like MJ response to who is the GOAT.

“You can’t compare eras”

Because when you honestly think about it? That is what we are doing and every era isn’t the same. So ultimately you could go by how each person dominated their specific era. Even that could be tough as there is no universal criterial set. I think it’s easier to list who can’t be considered the GOAT vs who is. There’s a short list of individuals in the history of the game that can stake claim to such a title. And IMO that is the highest compliment there is given how long basketball has been around and the hundreds of faces that played this game. To be in a handful of players you an form an argument as why they are the best says enough. Say 1500 players have played. For us to be arguing about 2 of the 1500 on who was the best out of 1500? Kinda seems silly. Agree to disagree, MJ is my Goat but if someone feels Bron is? So be it. If someone feels Karl Malone was the goat? We jump him and beat him to death.

[dankok8]

I personally like MJ response to who is the GOAT.

“You can’t compare eras”

Because when you honestly think about it? That is what we are doing and every era isn’t the same. So ultimately you could go by how each person dominated their specific era. Even that could be tough as there is no universal criterial set. I think it’s easier to list who can’t be considered the GOAT vs who is. There’s a short list of individuals in the history of the game that can stake claim to such a title. And IMO that is the highest compliment there is given how long basketball has been around and the hundreds of faces that played this game. To be in a handful of players you an form an argument as why they are the best says enough. Say 1500 players have played. For us to be arguing about 2 of the 1500 on who was the best out of 1500? Kinda seems silly. Agree to disagree, MJ is my Goat but if someone feels Bron is? So be it. If someone feels Karl Malone was the goat? We jump him and beat him to death.

I agree with everything you said. The eras are very very different. Still people INSIST on comparing eras....

[dankok8]

That's pretty much what I think. Although I don't think there is a single GOAT, but MJ was unique in that not only was he the best player in the league with the best stats, but also had the best teams, and the best moments. Even with the playoffs, his stats went up. I don't think any other player had the combination of dominance like he had. At least not as long. Wilt dominated the stats, but not the chips. Russell dominated the chips, not the stats. Kareem in his prime didn't win as much. Shaq in his prime was the best, but not enough chips. Magic and Bird were unique in stats, but neither show the lvl of dominance on both sides of the floor like MJ did. LeBron has the stats, but not as much chips and a few failures along the way that he should've won, but got upset.

MJ was the only person in nba history to be able to dominant the league like he did.

And I find it amazing that ppl would say LeBron would probably have the better career, but MJ is the better player. It just shows dominant MJ was. MJ did so much in those short years with the Bulls, like 13 seasons, but really like 11 seasons since one season he was out and the other he barely came back from retirement, that LeBron in his 18th is still catching up. Despite how well he has been playing.

Good post.

[Airupthere]

I personally like MJ response to who is the GOAT.

“You can’t compare eras”

Because when you honestly think about it? That is what we are doing and every era isn’t the same. So ultimately you could go by how each person dominated their specific era. Even that could be tough as there is no universal criterial set. I think it’s easier to list who can’t be considered the GOAT vs who is. There’s a short list of individuals in the history of the game that can stake claim to such a title. And IMO that is the highest compliment there is given how long basketball has been around and the hundreds of faces that played this game. To be in a handful of players you an form an argument as why they are the best says enough. Say 1500 players have played. For us to be arguing about 2 of the 1500 on who was the best out of 1500? Kinda seems silly. Agree to disagree, MJ is my Goat but if someone feels Bron is? So be it. If someone feels Karl Malone was the goat? We jump him and beat him to death.

Damn. This is how it should be. No disrespecting greats of different eras. Just appreciation.

[Bronbron23]

Doc Rivers On The GOAT Debate: “For Me, Michael Is The Greatest Player. But LeBron Is Gonna Have The Greatest Career Ever.”

https://fadeawayworld.net/2021/02/05/doc-rivers-on-the-goat-debate-for-me-michael-is-the-greatest-player-but-lebron-is-gonna-have-the-greatest-career-ever/

He may but he'll need more chips. If the point of game is to win there's no way he can have a greater career with just 4 chips. Especially when mj has comparable stats and more accolades.

[light]

I personally like MJ response to who is the GOAT.

“You can’t compare eras”

MJ started saying that later in life. When he was younger he was more open about wanting to topple Wilt and Kareem and outshine Magic and Larry and go down as the greatest.

Young MJ used to say stuff like this:

"The players today can do things they couldn't do twenty years ago. The game isn't played any more like Tex Winter taught it or even P.J. Those concepts don't work against bigger, faster players who jump higher."

But once LeBron entered the GOAT argument about a decade ago MJ started talking about, "Hey we can't really compare eras now can we? Things were just so different!"

lol.

[Micku]

I personally like MJ response to who is the GOAT.

“You can’t compare eras”

Because when you honestly think about it? That is what we are doing and every era isn’t the same. So ultimately you could go by how each person dominated their specific era. Even that could be tough as there is no universal criterial set. I think it’s easier to list who can’t be considered the GOAT vs who is. There’s a short list of individuals in the history of the game that can stake claim to such a title. And IMO that is the highest compliment there is given how long basketball has been around and the hundreds of faces that played this game. To be in a handful of players you an form an argument as why they are the best says enough. Say 1500 players have played. For us to be arguing about 2 of the 1500 on who was the best out of 1500? Kinda seems silly. Agree to disagree, MJ is my Goat but if someone feels Bron is? So be it. If someone feels Karl Malone was the goat? We jump him and beat him to death.

Yeah, I agree that you can't compare eras.

It has different rules. Different training. Different coaching, offense and defense. Different nutrition mindset.

There are little things that causal fans and even hardcore fans don't even think about unless you either coach or play the game. Like the contesting a shot at the paint by going straight up rule wasn't implemented until the late 00s I think? Or later. That's how some guard would get fouls and go to the FT line.

Of course back in the 80s and 90s, you don't have to defend the 3pt line unless the player was a sharp shooter. Spacing wasn't as good. Players would sag off. But this cause the paint to be clog up.

No 3 defensive second. The refs were more adamant on palming and traveling. Hard fouls were part of the game. You don't get punish as hard for fights. Etc, etc.

It's better to compare a single era with players face against each other because things are more equal.

However, you can still compare some things. Footwork, shooting form and touch, off the ball movement, passing vision. The fundamentals. But how efficient they are? The defense? It's better to compare relative to their era than across eras.

That's why I think there is no single GOAT. Tiers of goats for sure. But how can you compare MJ in his prime to prime Wilt? Y'know? They play different positions and different eras. Same thing with LeBron and MJ. MJ would probably play differently in this era and LeBron would play differently in the 80s and 90s. Like no 3s in the 80s, but MJ would probably shoot more. But there's more to it than that. Fouls are called differently. Defense is played differently. Offense is designed to be more efficient now, and there is more freedom and less physicality with the guards.

[Axe]

There was a time when LeBron having a better career than Jordan seemed impossible, now it's a foregone conclusion.

Doc will be wrong in the end about the greatest player. It's inevitable that LeBron will take over that title in the popular mind. Jordan's supporters are an older demographic and after they leave the spotlight due to irrelevancy, retirement or death their voices will no longer be heard.
How much did they pay you to make this brilliant narrative? Must be huge, i assume. Poison seems to ooze when you were writing this. ;)

[3ball]

Jordan is goat because no one can make a case over him

He's the only guy that can even make a case because everyone else's career is flawed in some key way

[Axe]

Jordan is goat because no one can make a case over him

He's the only guy that can even make a case because everyone else's career is flawed in some key way
No pip?

[Manny98]

Jordan is goat because no one can make a case over him

He's the only guy that can even make a case because everyone else's career is flawed in some key way

11 > 6

LeBron and Kareem destroy MJ on longevity whilst having similar peaks and ring count

So that's 3 players right there

[3ball]

11 > 6

LeBron and Kareem destroy MJ on longevity whilst having similar peaks and ring count

So that's 3 players right there


Again, Russell had garbage stats

Lebron lost too much

Kareem was carried

Otoh, the goat (mj) has no flaws

Btw, all those guys also have massive holes in their GAMES (in addition to their aforementioned resumes).. otoh, everyone concedes that mj had no weaknesses

[Manny98]

Again, Russell had garbage stats

Lebron lost too much

Kareem was carried

Otoh, the goat (mj) has no flaws

Btw, all those guys also have massive holes in their GAMES (in addition to their aforementioned resumes).. otoh, everyone concedes that mj had no weaknesses
MJ couldn't win a single playoff series without Pippen

Again his longevity was poor compared to other atgs

He never beat any truly great teams and played in arguably the weakest era


So that's 3 flaws right there and arguments why he's no the GOAT

I personally don't care about the GOAT debate anymore but let's not act like Jordan is perfect

[3ball]

MJ couldn't win a single playoff series without Pippen

Again his longevity was poor compared to other atgs

He never beat any truly great teams and played in arguably the weakest era

So that's 3 flaws right there and arguments why he's no the GOAT

I personally don't care about the GOAT debate anymore but let's not act like Jordan is perfect


Longevity isn't a goat argument because it's also a negative - playing longer and longer with less rings and accolades is a negative...

For example, it hurts a player to play for 2 decades with zero #1 offenses, zero DPOY, zero MVP or all-defense in the last 8 years, only 4 rings in 20 years despite many chances, etc, etc ..

these things get worse the longer the player plays

And the 90's was a 2-star vs 2-star fornat (2-star teams and evenly-spread talent), so there weren't supposed to be ANY great teams.. But the goat simply has too much impact in a 2-star vs 2-star format, so he made the Bulls a dynasty despite not having a super-team big 3 or 4..

btw, the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's most talented team ever and Duncan/Popovich.. they would destroy bron-ball

Finally, quit blaming mj for struggling his first couple years, just like Lebron did during his early years in East and West (lottery)

[Manny98]

Jordan would have lost more if he didn't retire 3 times and instead played through his entire career without breaks

Jordan only had 7-8 great seasons compared to Kareem and LeBron having 10+

Not having a sustained dominance (dominating for consecutive years) is a detremint to your legacy

[3ball]

Jordan would have lost more if he didn't retire 3 times and instead played through his entire career without breaks

Jordan only had 7-8 great seasons compared to Kareem and LeBron having 10+

Not having a sustained dominance (dominating for consecutive years) is a detremint to your legacy


Jordan was top 5 DPOY and scoring champ (a higher level than Kareem or Lebron ever reached) from 88-98'

That's 9 seasons, and he averaged 37/5/5 in 1987 with runner up in MVP, so that's 10 goat years.. then his rookie year (28/6/5) is goat for a rookie.. so that's 11 full seasons (6 rings)

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan never lost to Dwight Howard with HCA. Lebron did. Jordan never won bronze medal, while Lebron did so twice despite having peak Duncan, Wade, Bosh, Dwight to name a few guys. Jordan never lost with HCA, while Lebron did 3x vs clearly inferior players in Dirk and Dwight and Rondo.

[Manny98]

Jordan was top 5 DPOY and scoring champ (a higher level than Kareem or Lebron ever reached) from 88-98'

That's 9 seasons, and he averaged 37/5/5 in 1987 with runner up in MVP, so that's 10 goat years.. then his rookie year (28/6/5) is goat for a rookie.. so that's 11 full seasons (6 rings)

And LeBron has like 15 great seasons and he's still not done

So Lebron shits on MJ in terms of sustained dominance and has a equal peak

[kawhileonard2]

And LeBron has like 15 great seasons and he's still not done

So Lebron shits on MJ in terms of sustained dominance and has a equal peak

No he doesn't not when you winning bronze medals and losing to Dwight Howard a career loser with HCA and only got 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted you.

[Manny98]

Jordan literally spent half of his career either losing in the first round or missing the playoffs altogether

In terms of overall career achievements and accolades MJs not even top 3

His main argument is his peak

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan literally spent half of his career either losing in the first round or missing the playoffs altogether

In terms of overall career achievements and accolades MJs not even top 3

His main argument is his peak

Jordan has more titles, MVP's and Finals MVP than anyone combined and didn't even play as long.

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total

[3ball]

And LeBron has like 15 great seasons and he's still not done

So Lebron shits on MJ in terms of sustained dominance and has a equal peak


1) Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 8 years

That isn't MJ level - MJ level is top 5 DPOY every year, aka Giannis level


2) Lebron is #15 scorer, while MJ was scoring champ


So Lebron's "great" seasons are levels below MJ's top-top level (scoring champ and top 5 dpoy)

[dankok8]

Yeah, I agree that you can't compare eras.

It has different rules. Different training. Different coaching, offense and defense. Different nutrition mindset.

There are little things that causal fans and even hardcore fans don't even think about unless you either coach or play the game. Like the contesting a shot at the paint by going straight up rule wasn't implemented until the late 00s I think? Or later. That's how some guard would get fouls and go to the FT line.

Of course back in the 80s and 90s, you don't have to defend the 3pt line unless the player was a sharp shooter. Spacing wasn't as good. Players would sag off. But this cause the paint to be clog up.

No 3 defensive second. The refs were more adamant on palming and traveling. Hard fouls were part of the game. You don't get punish as hard for fights. Etc, etc.

It's better to compare a single era with players face against each other because things are more equal.

However, you can still compare some things. Footwork, shooting form and touch, off the ball movement, passing vision. The fundamentals. But how efficient they are? The defense? It's better to compare relative to their era than across eras.

That's why I think there is no single GOAT. Tiers of goats for sure. But how can you compare MJ in his prime to prime Wilt? Y'know? They play different positions and different eras. Same thing with LeBron and MJ. MJ would probably play differently in this era and LeBron would play differently in the 80s and 90s. Like no 3s in the 80s, but MJ would probably shoot more. But there's more to it than that. Fouls are called differently. Defense is played differently. Offense is designed to be more efficient now, and there is more freedom and less physicality with the guards.

Honestly I think when you really want to find the GOAT you analyze which player is the best relative to his own era. Like you say, everything is different in different eras and time machine arguments are stupid. The game doesn't even necessarily evolve per se... but the game definitely changes. For me, a modern player like Lebron can be GOAT if he dominates or dominated this era more than MJ dominated his and Kareem dominated his and Wilt/Russell dominated his. But to engage in time machine arguments like "What would MJ do today?". I have my own opinion from watching the game for so long and knowing the involved players' games inside out but such discussion still leads nowhere because it's all subjective. It doesn't matter if Jordan would average 40+ in today's era or if Lebron would struggle in the 90's... It doesn't matter. What matters is how much they dominated their own era because their peers are subjected to the same rules. For example in 20 years we may have such an offensively-minded NBA that teams will average 200 ppg and top scorers will be putting up 40 ppg on 70 %TS. Does that automatically mean that the best player in that era is the GOAT? No... you have to compare relative to their peers. Are other good players also putting up similar stats?

Wilt, Kareem and MJ didn't put up much better stats than Lebron in a cross-era comparison but they were putting up much better stats relative to their peers than what Lebron is doing relative to his peers. And that matters a lot and it's why I have Lebron #3-4 all time and have a hard time seeing him higher than that.

[SATAN]

:facepalm

[Pipes2.0]

Wilt, Kareem and MJ didn't put up much better stats than Lebron in a cross-era comparison but they were putting up much better stats relative to their peers than what Lebron is doing relative to his peers. And that matters a lot and it's why I have Lebron #3-4 all time and have a hard time seeing him higher than that.

LeBron played against better competition. While those three played mostly against milkmen, mechanics and bus boys.

[dankok8]

LeBron played against better competition. While those three played mostly against milkmen, mechanics and bus boys.

Even if that's true (obviously isn't) it doesn't matter. We'll never know if Bron could play against those milkmen. But we know that MJ, Kareem and Wilt dominated those milkmen more than Lebron dominated his peers.

[SATAN]

:facepalm

Unbelievably stupid

[3ball]

Lebron is nowhere near MJ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4i4JC8PABlw

[8Ball]

Even if that's true (obviously isn't) it doesn't matter. We'll never know if Bron could play against those milkmen. But we know that MJ, Kareem and Wilt dominated those milkmen more than Lebron dominated his peers.

LeBron would relish playing in a more physical era.

He would straight elbow Jordan and Bird into the hospital ala Malone on drives. They wouldn't be playing against Bron any more because they'd be in the hospital.

[3ball]

LeBron would relish playing in a more physical era.

He would straight elbow Jordan and Bird into the hospital ala Malone on drives. They wouldn't be playing against Bron any more because they'd be in the hospital.


It's common knowledge that lebron is soft and not tough

And afraid to fight

He'd cry like a bitch, even worse than he does now

[Hey Yo]

It's common knowledge that lebron is soft and not tough

And afraid to fight

He'd cry like a bitch, even worse than he does now
Your hero had to quit the NBA after only 7 consecutive full seasons cause he was mentally and physically soft, not tough.

[3ball]

Your hero had to quit the NBA after only 7 consecutive full seasons cause he was mentally and physically soft, not tough.


No he retired because he'd just performed unprecedented dominance and he thought there was nothing left to prove

If only he knew that teenagers 30 years later would view it as a "break" due to fatigue lol

[8Ball]

Your hero had to quit the NBA after only 7 consecutive full seasons cause he was mentally and physically soft, not tough.

Imagine telling Jordan to play 18 straight years.

He could never.

[Micku]

Honestly I think when you really want to find the GOAT you analyze which player is the best relative to his own era. Like you say, everything is different in different eras and time machine arguments are stupid. The game doesn't even necessarily evolve per se... but the game definitely changes. For me, a modern player like Lebron can be GOAT if he dominates or dominated this era more than MJ dominated his and Kareem dominated his and Wilt/Russell dominated his. But to engage in time machine arguments like "What would MJ do today?". I have my own opinion from watching the game for so long and knowing the involved players' games inside out but such discussion still leads nowhere because it's all subjective. It doesn't matter if Jordan would average 40+ in today's era or if Lebron would struggle in the 90's... It doesn't matter. What matters is how much they dominated their own era because their peers are subjected to the same rules. For example in 20 years we may have such an offensively-minded NBA that teams will average 200 ppg and top scorers will be putting up 40 ppg on 70 %TS. Does that automatically mean that the best player in that era is the GOAT? No... you have to compare relative to their peers. Are other good players also putting up similar stats?

Wilt, Kareem and MJ didn't put up much better stats than Lebron in a cross-era comparison but they were putting up much better stats relative to their peers than what Lebron is doing relative to his peers. And that matters a lot and it's why I have Lebron #3-4 all time and have a hard time seeing him higher than that.

Yeah, exactly.

It's better to compare to their peers in their relative era than across eras. Nowadays, the coaching changed to where the 3pt shot is more valued and defense is being played differently compared to the 00s, 90s, 80s, 70s and etc. Like how fair to compare TS% to the 70s when it didn't even a 3pt shot? Even in the 80s where they didn't shot 3s? Mindset of the game, the coaching, and the way it was called was too different. So, it's fruitless to even compare the stats. We do it anyway because it's fun, but to analysis who are GOATs, you gott'a use this context.

Like Magic, Bird, and MJ played in the league where these advance stats weren't even thing. They still got the numbers that they got. Which is impressive. But as you said, doing a time machine comparison like, "What would Bird, Magic, and MJ would average in this era?" is more subjective and wouldn't go anywhere. We all have our own opinions about it, but we don't have a time machine that could snap to that era to this era or vice versa. Unless you have 2k, but 2k be trippin.

There are some things that could be compared tho. It's the fundamentals, IQ and shooting touch. I don't need much to say Magic is still the best passer in NBA history. MJ footwork as a guard I think is only really rival by Kobe. And his midrange game is either the best or one of the best. And Bird's shooting touch and IQ are still great. But the actual results in terms of what they would average in this era? That's unknown. They could do better, be the same, or worse. I think stars like that transcends eras. I think the same of LeBron. It just depends on the coaching on era that things could be tougher or easier.

And like you said, it's better to compare how much they dominant in their relative era than stats across eras. Of course stats matter, but if they only matter, then Wilt would be the GOAT. MJ is still the only guy who dominated his era with the stats and the rings to boot. Even got the best record in the league history for a little while. LeBron never had that, and got upset. However imo, he probably had one of the lowest of the lows of the GOATs with all of those upsets he had in 2009, 2010, 2011. Even the finals of 2013 wasn't all that in comparison to himself that year, not only MJ, but the others I could get. He played great in the 2013 season tho. But he also have the highest of the high at the same time due to him playing great in 2016 and coming back 1-3 from a 73 win team. And dragging that 2018 Cavs team to the finals. Same thing with 2007.

I could understand if someone would say, that isn't as impressive as MJ just dominating throughout the time he was on top and hardly ever went seven games. He finish them off before. But to someone else, LeBron is the GOAT because of all of the lows and highs he had to go through and he has been great for so long.

But to me, there is no goat. Tiers of GOAT tho. And Lebron is one of the highest of tiers. His career isn't over yet, so we'll see how it ends up. MJ, of course, is the gold standard. He belong in the highest of tiers to me.

[8Ball]

It's common knowledge that lebron is soft and not tough

And afraid to fight

He'd cry like a bitch, even worse than he does now

Jordan retired because he was mentally soft after 7 years.

Jordan doesn't have the mental stamina to play 18 straight and get hammered like LeBron did.

[3ball]

Everyone has weaknesses in their resume and game/skills, except Jordan - that's why he's goat

And if longevity is a legitimate knock, its a lesser knock than having less championships or stats or jumpshooting skill