Can a player be in the top 20 all time without a fmvp?

[Bronbron23]

Talking about steph obviously. How can someone be considered one of the goats if he was never the best player on the floor on the biggest stage? So where does steph rank? Where would he rank if he had a fmvp or 2?

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes, as proven by multiple players like Oscar, Dr. J, Malone, KG, Barkley, Robinson

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Nope. Shows you're not a big game player. Especially if you been there 5 damn times like Curry has, that's embarrassing. At least guys like Barkley can say they only were in 1 finals.

[StrongLurk]

Yes, as proven by multiple players like Oscar, Dr. J, Malone, KG, Barkley, Robinson

:roll:

Wow OP is dumb. We have players obviously in the top 20 who don't even have a ring, let alone FMVP.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What? Of course they can.


Yes, as proven by multiple players like Oscar, Dr. J, Malone, KG, Barkley, Robinson

Of all elite players and ATGs, Steph might get the most unwarranted hate.

Crazy impact, great numbers in the regular-season, playoffs. And puts on a show if the eye test is your thing.

Morons will yap about his defensive abilities, or lack thereof, but then cape for dudes like Harden, Lillard, and Luka. :oldlol: Or never bat an eye with guys like Barkley and Magic.

[light]

If you can be in the top 20 without winning a championship (Karl Malone, for example, wno ESPN recently ranked 17th) you can certainly be in the top 20 without winning a Finals MVP.

Especially if you have 2 MVPs and 3 rings.

[tpols]

Easily. So Cedric Maxwell, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Iggy, etc. are better than a guy like Charles Barkley? This is a very shallow and poor analysis. An arbitrary, lazy, end all be all qualifier.

[dawsey6]

...and if we're being honest, he should've won FMVP in 2015 over Iggy. He was clearly the best player for them, but Iggy was a storyline.

[Walk on Water]

FMVPs are overrated. Sure, if you want to just take the ball from your teammates so you can look good cosmetically.

[RRR3]

Yes, as proven by multiple players like Oscar, Dr. J, Malone, KG, Barkley, Robinson
Dumbdumb23 at it yet again.

[Pointguard]

His, Curry, impact on the game is crazy. Whole teams try to play like him. And its just a matter of time before his style will dominate finals. All players shoot worse from long distance in the finals. Defense still predominates finals. What I find wild is that defense doesn't get the accolades either even when it dictates finals play.

[tpols]

His, Curry, impact on the game is crazy. Whole teams try to play like him. And its just a matter of time before his style will dominate finals. All players shoot worse from long distance in the finals. Defense still predominates finals. What I find wild is that defense doesn't get the accolades either even when it dictates finals play.

It sure did for Iggy.

[Stephonit]

Why does the opinion of the majority of 11 paid hacks matter? There are polls on this site which are objectively as significant.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Easily. So Cedric Maxwell, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Iggy, etc. are better than a guy like Charles Barkley? This is a very shallow and poor analysis. An arbitrary, lazy, end all be all qualifier.

It doesn't make them better players then anybody who hasn't won finals mvp, it just raises their stock.

Dennis Johnson = top 70 player ever.

Tony parker = top 70 player ever

Without the finals mvp, they are about top 90 player ever.

So a guy like curry has a top 25 ever resume. No finals MVP, he drops to about top 40 ever.

I'm giving a rough estimate of their rank but you get the idea.

[SouBeachTalents]

It doesn't make them better players then anybody who hasn't won finals mvp, it just raises their stock.

Dennis Johnson = top 70 player ever.

Tony parker = top 70 player ever

Without the finals mvp, they are about top 90 player ever.

So a guy like curry has a top 25 ever resume. No finals MVP, he drops to about top 40 ever.

I'm giving a rough estimate of their rank but you get the idea.
So then where do you rank the players I listed, do Oscar & Dr. J drop out of the top 25 too?

[Stephonit]

It doesn't make them better players then anybody who hasn't won finals mvp, it just raises their stock.

Dennis Johnson = top 70 player ever.

Tony parker = top 70 player ever

Without the finals mvp, they are about top 90 player ever.

So a guy like curry has a top 25 ever resume. No finals MVP, he drops to about top 40 ever.

I'm giving a rough estimate of their rank but you get the idea.


How many guys have had the opportunity to lead a team to 73 wins? How many have actually done so?

Nearly any of Curry's records are objectively far far more impressive than an FMVP which is an add-on award. It's an add-on like the free carrying case you get from getting a diamond encrusted watch.

It never ceases to amaze me how the media have been able to convince people their coattail riding opinion means anything. It doesn't.

[TheGoatest]

Top 20? Sure.
Top 15? Kind of a grey area. His other accomplishments would have to be amazing.
Top 10? No.

Finals MVP is the only award that all the consensus top 10 players have multiple of. The only exceptions are Wilt and Russell because the award did not exist back then. If it did, then they would have multiple Finals MVPs as well, and in Russell's case at least 8.

[Stephonit]

Top 20? Sure.
Top 15? Kind of a grey area. His other accomplishments would have to be amazing.
Top 10? No.

Top 10 case can be made rather easily. Who else has done what Curry has?

[SouBeachTalents]

Top 10 case can be made rather easily. Who else has done what Curry has?
Absolutely not :oldlol: What's your argument for Curry over Kobe or Hakeem besides 73 wins?

[tpols]

Absolutely not :oldlol: What's your argument for Curry over Kobe or Hakeem besides 73 wins?

Curry has 3 superstar titles to Hakeem's 2. His splits are much better than Hakeem's in his title runs too. Hakeem didn't have dominant efficiency.

[Stephonit]

Absolutely not :oldlol: What's your argument for Curry over Kobe or Hakeem besides 73 wins?

67-73-67. Name another player who has led 3 67-win teams. Only one comes to mind. Most efficient high-volume scorer in NBA history. Best off-ball player ever. Plus-minus leader. Better statistical season than either of those players.

[hold this L]

There's like 10 topics by Lebron stans made or updated since last night after Steph scored 57. Talk about rent free. :applause:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2014/WHefBw.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

Curry has 3 superstar titles to Hakeem's 2. His splits are much better than Hakeem's in his title runs too. Hakeem didn't have dominant efficiency.
Curry in his wildest dreams would've never led those Houston teams to titles

[hold this L]

Curry in his wildest dreams would've never led those Houston teams to titles

Hakeem would never win anything in his career if MJ wasn't a degenerate gambler

[L.Kizzle]

Elgin Baylor may still be in some peoples top 20 and he has neither a title or a FMVP.

[Stephonit]

Curry in his wildest dreams would've never led those Houston teams to titles

1994 Rockets preseason championship odds: +1200
2015 Warriors preseason championship odds: +2800

Curry already led a team with longer odds than the ones led by Olajuwon to a championship. Defeated all the other All-NBA First Team on the way too while Hakeem didn't face Jordan.

[3ball]

No

Wade had one of the most dominant FMVP's ever, yet he's borderline top 20, even though he everyone knows he really won 2 FMVP's (2011, 2006)

[tpols]

Curry in his wildest dreams would've never led those Houston teams to titles

Curry built a dynasty with Klay. You realize those Houston teams were deep and had Clyde Drexler right (in '95)? Clyde was way better than Klay.

[SouBeachTalents]

Curry built a dynasty with Klay. You realize those Houston teams were deep and had Clyde Drexler right (in '95)? Clyde was way better than Klay.
He had 32 year old Drexler for one of those titles. And I find it amusing you conveniently leave off All-NBA & DPOY Dray :lol

[tpols]

He had 32 year old Drexler for one of those titles. And I find it amusing you conveniently leave off All-NBA & DPOY Dray :lol

Clyde totally balled out in those playoffs harder than Klay ever has. I watched a documentary on that team.

[Bronbron23]

Damn some of yall need to chill. It's just a question to spark debate. A part of me thinks you can and think steph is top 20. A part of me isn't sure. And people using barkley, robinson or oscar to argue their point for steph are missing something. They all contributed in other ways than scoring and therefore impacted the game more. Steph is mostly just a one trick pony. When he's struggling offensively he dosn't really give you much other than being a decoy.

[Stephonit]

Damn some of yall need to chill. It's just a question to spark debate. A part of me thinks you can and think steph is top 20. A part of me isn't sure. And people using barkley, robinson or oscar to argue their point for steph are missing something. They all contributed in other ways than scoring and therefore impacted the game more. Steph is mostly just a one trick pony. When he's struggling offensively he dosn't really give you much other than being a decoy.

Even when he's struggling he remains a threat—a threat that at any time could end up burying you. Therefore his gravity remains. Did those other guys have something to compare?

[imdaman99]

Yes but not if you get 5 freaking chances. These other guys that are in the top 20 either didn't win rings or were only in 1 or 2 finals. Curry might make it anyway because he has 2 MVPs but he still has a way to go.

[Stephonit]

Yes but not if you get 5 freaking chances. These other guys that are in the top 20 either didn't win rings or were only in 1 or 2 finals. Curry might make it anyway because he has 2 MVPs but he still has a way to go.

Being in the finals is the more important accomplishment.

[SouBeachTalents]

Clyde totally balled out in those playoffs harder than Klay ever has. I watched a documentary on that team.
Well, you and I differ on our definition of "balling out". 21/7/5 is a good 2nd option title run a la 2012 Wade & 2000 Kobe, balling out though? Definitely an exaggeration to me :lol

[3ball]

Curry built a dynasty with Klay. You realize those Houston teams were deep and had Clyde Drexler right (in '95)? Clyde was way better than Klay.


Yeah but didn't Curry/Klay simply have a head start implementing the best strategy that the entire league now uses?

The 15' Warriors attempted 27 threes per game, and the league average was 22... By 2017, the league average had surpassed 27 and now it's 35 in 2021

So they wouldn't win 60 games in today's league - they're barely .500 without Klay - Klay isn't turning them into a 60-win team imo..

[tpols]

Well, you and I differ on our definition of "balling out". 21/7/5 is a good 2nd option title run a la 2012 Wade & 2000 Kobe, balling out though? Definitely an exaggeration to me :lol

Clyde put that up on 120 ORTG... way better than 2000 Kobe or 2012 Wade. He was elite defender just like them too. And Wade was definitely still a superstar in 2012.

[3ball]

Clyde put that up on 120 ORTG... way better than 2000 Kobe or 2012 Wade. And Wade was definitely still a superstar in 2012.


Yes 2012 Wade had a 26 PER and higher BPM, WS/48 and PER than say, Pippen ever had

[tpols]

Yeah but didn't Curry/Klay simply have a head start implementing the best strategy that the entire league now uses?

The 15' Warriors attempted 27 threes per game, and the league average was 22... By 2017, the league average had surpassed 27 and now it's 35 in 2021

So they wouldn't win 60 games in today's league - they're barely .500 without Klay - Klay isn't turning them into a 60-win team imo..

Kelly Oubre is killing the team. He shot on 89 ORTG last night to lose them the game. That's efficiency that would make even Pippen disgusted. For reference MJ is a 120 ORTG player. Curry put up 57 on 148 ORTG yesterday. Totally ridiculous what he did.

[3ball]

Kelly Oubre is killing the team. He shot on 89 ORTG last night to lose them the game. That's efficiency that would make even Pippen blush.


Yes Oubre has been a disappointment so far

But he showed the capacity to be a "klay" the other night, and the Warriors are elite when he's elite (3-0 when he outscores Curry).. I always saw him as being a player whose good performances (stats) impacted winning

[SouBeachTalents]

Clyde put that up on 120 ORTG... way better than 2000 Kobe or 2012 Wade. He was elite defender just like them too. And Wade was definitely still a superstar in 2012.
The guy averaged 19 ppg on 55%TS after the first round, I'm just not seeing the masterful performance that you are I guess :confusedshrug:

And in all honesty, saying Wade was a superstar in 2012 is just a disservice to Wade himself. He was clearly not playing at the caliber he had displayed since his sophomore season. And you can't even fully blame LeBron when Bosh missed half the playoffs and Wade was in fact putting up superstar performances against Boston & Dallas the year before. It's not even a diss on Wade, he played well, but superstar? I definitely disagree

[Bronbron23]

Even when he's struggling he remains a threat—a threat that at any time could end up burying you. Therefore his gravity remains. Did those other guys have something to compare?

Yeah forsure that's why i said he's still has impact as a decoy but all great scorers do that and more. As far as burying you that's debatable especially when we're looking at the biggest stage. He can definitely hurt you but burying is a bit dramatic.

So yes they do have something to compare. Like steph they are always scoring threats but they do other things. Oscar, barkley and drob were all elite rebounders. Drob was also an elite defender. Even barkley and ascar were good defenders. Steph on the other hand is actually pretty bad defensively so not only is he not helping when it comes to the other half of the game he's actually hurting you.

I guess you could say steph is a good passer but his turnovers almost negates that. Plus he's had some pretty costly turnovers in big moments.

[3ball]

The guy averaged 19 ppg on 55%TS after the first round, I'm just not seeing the masterful performance that you are I guess :confusedshrug:

And in all honesty, saying Wade was a superstar in 2012 is just a disservice to Wade himself. He was clearly not playing at the caliber he had displayed since his sophomore season. And you can't even fully blame LeBron when Bosh missed half the playoffs and Wade was in fact putting up superstar performances against Boston & Dallas the year before. It's not even a diss on Wade, he played well, but superstar? I definitely disagree


Wade's 2012 Rankings (league-wide)


PER.......... 3rd
BPM......... 3rd
WS/48...... 5th
VORP........ 4th

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012_leaders.html


Carry on

[TheCorporation]

Yes, as proven by multiple players like Oscar, Dr. J, Malone, KG, Barkley, Robinson

+1

[TheCorporation]

Easily. So Cedric Maxwell, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Iggy, etc. are better than a guy like Charles Barkley? This is a very shallow and poor analysis. An arbitrary, lazy, end all be all qualifier.

+1

I can't believe I am plus-one'ing Tpols but he's right

[Axe]

Pip never had any fmvps for his entire career but before the 00s, he was probably within top 20 back then.

[tanibanana]

There is no certain or specific metrics to be in the top-20. But then again, with too many great players, and the history of NBA continues to add up, there will come a time that very very few players, perhaps only 1 or 2 will have an argument to stay inside the top-20 without a FMVP.

[Stephonit]

Yeah forsure that's why i said he's still has impact as a decoy but all great scorers do that and more. As far as burying you that's debatable especially when we're looking at the biggest stage. He can definitely hurt you but burying is a bit dramatic.

Curry is the most efficient high-volume scorer in NBA history. That is significantly more than just a great scorer. A Curry flurry is the basketball equivalent of an ICBM missile. It was the misfortune of both KD and James Harden—scoring champions themselves—that they had to find out the difference in playoffs series.

[Sulico]

Yes.

Bleacher Report for example was always most impartial, ananlytical and level headed site when it comes for rankings. Or youtube comedy series :)

And Curry is way into top 20 according to them.
I rank Steph same as they do - 10th.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed

[Gohan]

I like you op but you’re a hater lmao

[Stanley Kobrick]

it's interesting how Billups and Parker have FMVP's, yet Stephen Curry has none despite 5 finals

[light]

it's interesting how Billups and Parker have FMVP's, yet Stephen Curry has none despite 5 finals

What do you think that means though? The Warriors still could not have won any of their rings without Steph. Scottie Pippen is another example of a guy like that.

[Stephonit]

it's interesting how Billups and Parker have FMVP's, yet Stephen Curry has none despite 5 finals

It's interesting how because of those FMVPs Billups and Parker are automatically considered the best players on their respective teams.

Oh wait....

[Bronbron23]

Curry is the most efficient high-volume scorer in NBA history. That is significantly more than just a great scorer. A Curry flurry is the basketball equivalent of an ICBM missile. It was the misfortune of both KD and James Harden—scoring champions themselves—that they had to find out the difference in playoffs series.

Nah bruh. Maybe regular season but late in playoffs and especially the finals on the biggest stage he's definitely not the most efficient volume scorer. Shit for most of his rings he wasn't even the most efficient volume scorer on his own team on the biggest stage.

Alot of steph fans hide behing wack ts numbers knowing full well ts is a trash measurement when looking at efficiency from the floor. Ts uses foul shooting and steph barely gets to the line on the biggest stage. If he goes 2 fo 2 that's 100% and that's used in the ts measurement. So even if he's inefficient from the floor his ft % will bumb up his ts %.

[hold this L]

Yes.

Bleacher Report for example was always most impartial, ananlytical and level headed site when it comes for rankings. Or youtube comedy series :)

And Curry is way into top 20 according to them.
I rank Steph same as they do - 10th.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed
For me, he's top 15 but probably a bit further down below. Maybe 12th. 1 more MVP or championship and he's in the 7-9 category.

[k0kakw0rld]

Damn some of yall need to chill. It's just a question to spark debate. A part of me thinks you can and think steph is top 20. A part of me isn't sure. And people using barkley, robinson or oscar to argue their point for steph are missing something. They all contributed in other ways than scoring and therefore impacted the game more. Steph is mostly just a one trick pony. When he's struggling offensively he dosn't really give you much other than being a decoy.

Shut the fk up bro. We know you have an agenda.

[Bronbron23]

Shut the fk up bro. We know you have an agenda.

It's no agenda it's pretty straight foward dumbass. steph is a debatable top 20 because he's a liability when it comes to 50% of the game.

[Stephonit]

It's no agenda it's pretty straight foward dumbass. steph is a debatable top 20 because he's a liability when it comes to 50% of the game.

Binary thinking. You don't account for Curry's ability allowing for defensive and offensive stacking. Curry's efficiency allows for the negation of some of the penalty from there only being one ball.

[guy]

First off, he was completely screwed in 2015.

Second, there's only been 31 different Finals MVPs and no one in their right mind can argue that guys like Maxwell, Worthy, Dumars, Parker, Billups, Pierce, Iguodala, etc. deserve to be in the top 20.

[Pipes2.0]

Nah bruh. Maybe regular season but late in playoffs and especially the finals on the biggest stage he's definitely not the most efficient volume scorer. Shit for most of his rings he wasn't even the most efficient volume scorer on his own team on the biggest stage.

Alot of steph fans hide behing wack ts numbers knowing full well ts is a trash measurement when looking at efficiency from the floor. Ts uses foul shooting and steph barely gets to the line on the biggest stage. If he goes 2 fo 2 that's 100% and that's used in the ts measurement. So even if he's inefficient from the floor his ft % will bumb up his ts %.

I agree with you, OP. :applause:

[Bronbron23]

First off, he was completely screwed in 2015.

Second, there's only been 31 different Finals MVPs and no one in their right mind can argue that guys like Maxwell, Worthy, Dumars, Parker, Billups, Pierce, Iguodala, etc. deserve to be in the top 20.

No of course they don't. You have to have other things like great stats, accolades and chips. Steph has those and that's why he's ahead of those guys. He's just trash when it come to the other side of the ball so him being top 20 is debatable because of that.

[Axe]

it's interesting how Billups and Parker have FMVP's, yet Stephen Curry has none despite 5 finals
It would also mean that they had made greater impact than curry in the biggest stage of the league.

[Stanley Kobrick]

It would also mean that they had made greater impact than curry in the biggest stage of the league.
i agree with you axe, both billups and parker stepped up when the pressure arose

[Manny98]

LeBron was top 20 before he won his first FMVP so..


https://youtu.be/6TrccDSAY58