The problem with Bill Russell is that he never faced any defensive attention

[3ball]

That's why it's necessary to be a scorer, which ensures maximum stat and ring integrity by facing maximum defensive attention.

Furthermore, the last 40 MVP's since the 3-point line was instituted have been dominant offensive players, so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in the modern era.

Ultimately, Bill Russell is the greatest role player ever, who only won because he played with 10 HOF's in an 8-team league (85% of the league's good players were on his team).

[8Ball]

Jordan had All-NBA 1st team player ala Pippen 3x.

LeBron had it 1 time only in his career.

You don't get all-NBA 1st team unless you are clear cut top 5 player in the league.

[3ball]

Btw, everyone in history needed an equal-scoring teammate to win half their rings (1b) - only Jordan won rings with true 2nd options as a standard, so he's the only guy that faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career (kenny smith talks about this fact here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s)).. facing maximum defensive attention gives Jordan's stats and rings maximum quality.. Jordan infact had the lowest-producing 2nd option and least star help of any top 10 player, and also won the 93' ring with the lowest sidekick BPM, PER, and WS/48 ever in the playoffs.

[tpols]

cmon bro... don't start hating on Bill Russell now. :facepalm

[Micku]

There are some players where stats don't tell the full story. Sometimes only coaches or other players who play the game professionally would see what they do. All the little things that contribute to wins. Other times, the stat that matters is the W.

Bill Russell was so good at what he did, the coach wanted Wilt to play more like him. And once he did, they won. And he continued to play like him throughout his career. It wasn't like he couldn't do more, but he did it in order to win.

How many other players in history done stuff like that?

Maybe Bill Walton. Tim Duncan. I suppose James Harden currently is sacrificing his stats for the Ws, but they got no defense right now.

MJ was similar too I suppose. Sacrificing his stats in order to help the team, but not as much.

We might see another Bill Russell type of player again, but only Bill Russell played in his so good that it made the other top player to change his style in order to win. The closest one we had was Tim Duncan.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s not necessary to be anything but effective. It’s your bullshit standard that let the Celtics trade a scorer(easy Ed McCauley) to the Hawks for Russells’ rights and win all those rings in the first place.

It doesn’t matter one speck how you make your team play better than the other team.

Took dumbass scouts 75 years to figure that out and he did a lot to bring about that change. I wish I could find the exact quote by the scout who was trying to explain to some dumb exec why they should take Russell. Guy was like “You see the box score? He had 6 points.” to which the scout responded “Yea but the other team only scored 29...”.


Nothing matters but having more points than the other team. You can have 5 of your teams or 38....if you’re the reason the other team can’t score enough to compete nothing else matters.

[Kblaze8855]

By the way even with 3 all nba first teamers who were scorers and Red coaching the Celtics never even made the finals before Russell....won the title in his rookie year...then lost in the finals the next year when he got hurt.

Why?

Because with Russell hurt and having to be pulled in the deciding game Bob Pettit dropped 50 to win the title.

Defense matters.

[3ball]

.
The statistical gap between MJ/Pippen was bigger than the gap between Dirk/Terry in 2011, and Pippen's production was usually equal or less than Terry's:


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 27.7 ppg.. 25.2 PER.. 5.5 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.210 WS/48
11' Terry....... 17.5 ppg.. 20.3 PER.. 4.6 BPM.. 1.1 VORP.. 0.179 WS/48
GAP............... 10.2...........4.9.............1.1.......... 0.5............ 0.031

93' Jordan... 35.1 ppg.. 30.1 PER.. 11.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.270 WS/48
93' Pippen... 20.1 ppg.. 16.9 PER.... 2.0 BPM.. 0.8 VORP.. 0.083 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0...........13.2............ 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187

92' Jordan... 34.5 ppg.. 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.8 VORP.. 0.216 WS/48
92' Pippen... 19.5 ppg.. 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM.. 2.0 VORP.. 0.168 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0.............7.1............ 3.3........... 0.8............ 0.048

91' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 32.0 PER.. 14.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.333 WS/48
91' Pippen... 21.6 ppg.. 22.0 PER.... 6.5 BPM.. 1.5 VORP.. 0.197 WS/48
GAP................. 9.5..........10.0............ 8.1........... 1.4............ 0.136

96' Jordan... 30.7 ppg.. 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48
96' Pippen... 16.9 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48
GAP.............. 13.8.............7.3............ 2.9........... 0.6............ 0.122

97' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.235 WS/48
97' Pippen... 19.2 ppg.. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM.. 1.4 VORP.. 0.145 WS/48
GAP.............. 11.9.............9.1............ 4.8........... 1.0............ 0.090

98' Jordan... 32.4 ppg.. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.265 WS/48
98' Pippen... 16.8 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.166 WS/48
GAP.............. 16.4.............8.7............ 3.4........... 0.8............ 0.095



Conclusion - Jordan had 6 carry-job rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk, and Pippen's production = Jason Terry

[3ball]

.
12' Wade had higher PER, BPM, and WS/48 than Pippen ever did.. Wade ranked top 5 in the league for PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48


13' Wade Finals..... 19.6 on 47%
Pippen 6 Finals..'... 19.0 on 42%


^^^ so 12' Wade was better than any Pippen, and 13' Wade was equal to prime Pippen - even 14' Wade out-produced prime Pippen:


Playoffs

14' Wade''.... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg

[3ball]

Jordan had All-NBA 1st team player ala Pippen 3x.

LeBron had it 1 time only in his career.

You don't get all-NBA 1st team unless you are clear cut top 5 player in the league.


Pippen benefitted by being on the only 2-star team to win many rings

So he won many rings and got full credit without having to share shine with 3rd and 4th stars like normal dynasties

But Pippen's actual production was the worst ever for a sidekick with 2+ rings - it was comparable to 13' and 14' Wade and often worse than 11' Terry (see previous posts).

So Pippen's garbage stats and performance is simply inflated by an inflated share of the winning spotlight (many rings without having to share shine with 3rd and 4th stars like normal dynasties).. And ultimately, anything associated with the goat brand (air jordan) gets inflated

[8Ball]

By the way even with 3 all nba first teamers who were scorers and Red coaching the Celtics never even made the finals before Russell....won the title in his rookie year...then lost in the finals the next year when he got hurt.

Why?

Because Russell being hurt and having to be pulled in the deciding game Bob Pettit dropped 50 to win the title.

Defense matters.

That ghoulash joint.

[FKAri]

.
The statistical gap between MJ/Pippen was bigger than the gap between Dirk/Terry in 2011, and Pippen's production was usually equal or less than Terry's:


PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 27.7 ppg.. 25.2 PER.. 5.5 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.210 WS/48
11' Terry....... 17.5 ppg.. 20.3 PER.. 4.6 BPM.. 1.1 VORP.. 0.179 WS/48
GAP............... 10.2...........4.9.............1.1.......... 0.5............ 0.031

93' Jordan... 35.1 ppg.. 30.1 PER.. 11.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.270 WS/48
93' Pippen... 20.1 ppg.. 16.9 PER.... 2.0 BPM.. 0.8 VORP.. 0.083 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0...........13.2............ 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187

92' Jordan... 34.5 ppg.. 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.8 VORP.. 0.216 WS/48
92' Pippen... 19.5 ppg.. 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM.. 2.0 VORP.. 0.168 WS/48
GAP.............. 15.0.............7.1............ 3.3........... 0.8............ 0.048

91' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 32.0 PER.. 14.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.333 WS/48
91' Pippen... 21.6 ppg.. 22.0 PER.... 6.5 BPM.. 1.5 VORP.. 0.197 WS/48
GAP................. 9.5..........10.0............ 8.1........... 1.4............ 0.136

96' Jordan... 30.7 ppg.. 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48
96' Pippen... 16.9 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48
GAP.............. 13.8.............7.3............ 2.9........... 0.6............ 0.122

97' Jordan... 31.1 ppg.. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.235 WS/48
97' Pippen... 19.2 ppg.. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM.. 1.4 VORP.. 0.145 WS/48
GAP.............. 11.9.............9.1............ 4.8........... 1.0............ 0.090

98' Jordan... 32.4 ppg.. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.265 WS/48
98' Pippen... 16.8 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.166 WS/48
GAP.............. 16.4.............8.7............ 3.4........... 0.8............ 0.095



Conclusion - Jordan had 6 carry-job rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk, and Pippen's production = Jason Terry

I thought we were talking about Bill Russell. Instead you bring up a comparison between Jordan and... Dirk?

[AirBonner]

Bill Russell basically had two MJ careers combined to make his career.

[AirBonner]

Bill Russell has at least 3 underdog rings. MJ has none.

[dankok8]

Bill Russell a role player? That's a bananas take. You should realize that he won 5 MVP's and would have also won 8-9 FMVP's if they existed in his era.

[Airupthere]

Bill russell is a solid top 3 goat. KAJ, MJ, Bill. Then Bird and Magic, they are solid top 5. No team jumping, super friends team building, flopping and whiny players should crack the top 5. Otherwise that is downright disrespect.

[RRR3]

Is 3ball retarded?

[SouBeachTalents]

It’s not necessary to be anything but effective. It’s your bullshit standard that let the Celtics trade a scorer(easy Ed McCauley) to the Hawks for Russells’ rights and win all those rings in the first place.

It doesn’t matter one speck how you make your team play better than the other team.

Took dumbass scouts 75 years to figure that out and he did a lot to bring about that change. I wish I could find the exact quote by the scout who was trying to explain to some dumb exec why they should take Russell. Guy was like “You see the box score? He had 6 points.” to which the scout responded “Yea but the other team only scored 29...”.


Nothing matters but having more points than the other team. You can have 5 of your teams or 38....if you’re the reason the other team can’t score enough to compete nothing else matters.

By the way even with 3 all nba first teamers who were scorers and Red coaching the Celtics never even made the finals before Russell....won the title in his rookie year...then lost in the finals the next year when he got hurt.

Why?

Because Russell being hurt and having to be pulled in the deciding game Bob Pettit dropped 50 to win the title.

Defense matters.
Of course 3ball will refuse to acknowledge this and resume autistically copy and pasting numbers that have literally nothing to do with thread. What the fck does Wade or Dirk have to do with Bill Russell :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Of course 3ball will refuse to acknowledge this and resume autistically copy and pasting numbers that have literally nothing to do with thread. What the fck does Wade or Dirk have to do with Bill Russell :oldlol:
When he doesn’t have an answer he just copies and pastes random diatribes that were written for the sole purpose of making LeBron look bad. The man is sick and he will get even worse if LeBron wins again.

[Manny98]

Bill Russell is a role player now?

Why are y'all even responding to this shit :facepalm

[jlip]

The problem with Jordan is he is simply the greatest loser among the top 10 all time greatest players. If you look below, it's honestly not even close. No other top 10 player has been on a team with half the number of losing seasons as MJ.




Bill Russell- N/A
Wilt Chamberlain- 1963, 1965
Kareem Abdul Jabbar- 1975, 1976
Magic Johnson- N/A
Larry Bird- N/A
Michael Jordan- 1985, 1986, 1987, 2002, 2003
Shaquille O'Neal- 2008 w/Heat
Tim Duncan- N/A
Lebron James- 2004, 2019
Hakeem Olajuwon- 2000

[SouBeachTalents]

The problem with Jordan is he is simply the greatest loser among the top 10 all time greatest players. If you look below, it's honestly not even close. No other top 10 player has been on a team with half the number of losing seasons as MJ.
Damn :(

[tpols]

The problem with Jordan is he is simply the greatest loser among the top 10 all time greatest players. If you look below, it's honestly not even close. No other top 10 player has been on a team with half the number of losing seasons as MJ.

So he lost his first few years on lottery teams, his last two years when he was 40 on lottery teams, and in between went 6/6 dominating the entire league?

That means in his prime he was GOAT.

[scuzzy]

The problem with Jordan is he is simply the greatest loser among the top 10 all time greatest players. If you look below, it's honestly not even close. No other top 10 player has been on a team with half the number of losing seasons as MJ.
ouch

[jlip]

So he lost his first few years on lottery teams, his last two years when he was 40 on lottery teams, and in between went 6/6 dominating the entire league?

That means in his prime he was GOAT.

There is no context provided when he wins. His winning is accepted as a straight fact testifying to his greatness. I'm just applying the same logic to his losing.

[red1]

bill russell would have 12 rings if he had pippen


zero doubt.

[Round Mound]

We all know Bill Russell was not a great individual offensive player but as a defender, rebounder & passer he was great. Jordan is the best ever we already know that 3-ball.

[tpols]

There is no context provided when he wins. His winning is accepted as a straight fact testifying to his greatness. I'm just applying the same logic to his losing.

What is the missing context with him winning? He didn't have anywhere near the help Russell had even in his prime.

[Derka]

You desperately need a better outlet for your free time.

What is even the point of this? No one anywhere who matters thinks Bill is the GOAT. The case for MJ > Bill doesn’t need to be made unless you literally have nothing better to do with your time but rile up strangers on the internet, in which case your life is meaningless and you should probably off yourself.

[Axe]

This thread

https://media1.tenor.com/images/085934ba0327dfeecc7f10999ba27aa9/tenor.gif

[AirBonner]

11>6


Math checks out

[light]

Bill Russell was the consensus GOAT in 1980 during the NBA's 35th anniversary.

Not Wilt Chamberlain. Not some other selfish scorer.

If given a choice the public usually sides with people that epitomize the American spirit of selflessness and sacrifice. It's how Medals of Honor are awarded. You cannot get a Medal of Honor by saving yourself - you have to sacrifice your own safety to save the lives of others. That selfless American spirit is constantly reinforced in a myriad of ways, like the Medal of Honor, and also our custom of gift giving through holidays, anniversaries and the like.

"It is better to give than to receive."

These are the values that all of us were taught as children and also the values that we still teach our own children.

But guys like Wilt Chamberlain and Michael Jordan were slow learners which is why they were shunned at their most selfish when they were scoring their most points.

You have to remember that respect for Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain as winners only happened AFTER they gave up the ball - AFTER they became more selfless and started thinking of their teammates - AFTER they became more like Bill Russell and LeBron James.

[Airupthere]

Bill Russell was the consensus GOAT in 1980 during the NBA's 35th anniversary.

Not Wilt Chamberlain. Not some other selfish scorer.

If given a choice the public usually sides with people that epitomize the American spirit of selflessness and sacrifice. It's how Medals of Honor are awarded. You cannot get a Medal of Honor by saving yourself - you have to sacrifice your own safety to save the lives of others. That selfless American spirit is constantly reinforced in a myriad of ways, like the Medal of Honor, and our custom of mandatory gift giving through holidays, anniversaries and the like.

"It is better to give than to receive."

These are the values that all of us were taught as children and also the values that we still teach our own children.

But guys like Wilt Chamberlain and Michael Jordan were slow learners which is why they were shunned at their most selfish when they were scoring their most points.

You have to remember that respect for Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain as winners only happened AFTER they gave up the ball - AFTER they became more selfless and started thinking of their teammates - AFTER they became more like Bill Russell and LeBron James.

You snuck in an error. Lebron had his AFTER team hopping and superteaming. Not in the same breath as the Bill Russell’s.

[dankok8]

Dismissing Russell shows how subjective greatness is. People don't like a guy as GOAT who dominated with post defense in a vertically-challenged paint-oriented era but they like modern guys who dominate a defensively-challenged perimeter-oriented era with perimeter offense.

The time machine argument is stupid. Of course Russell would be a lot worse in today's NBA than let's say Lebron would be in the 60's if they magically time travelled. But that's not a fair comparison... if a guy with Russell's athletic and mental makeup grew up today, had modern nutrition, modern medicine, wore proper shoes, had tactical coaching, worked out using modern methods etc. is it a stretch to think he would be way better? Heck based on his body build and physical abilties he might be a much more athletic Kevin Garnett which is a scary thought. He may well be the GOAT today.

[light]

You snuck in an error. Lebron had his AFTER team hopping and superteaming. Not in the same breath as the Bill Russell’s.

LeBron's reputation for being unselfish has been with him since he was 12. That didn't happen after he entered the NBA. His entire career is built upon that principle, not unlike Bill Russell.

And besides "superteaming" = sacrifice.

The 60's Celtics were a superteam.

[light]

Dismissing Russell shows how subjective greatness is. People don't like a guy as GOAT who dominated with post defense in a vertically-challenged paint-oriented era but they like modern guys who dominate a defensively-challenged perimeter-oriented era with perimeter offense.

The time machine argument is stupid. Of course Russell would be a lot worse in today's NBA than let's say Lebron would be in the 60's if they magically time travelled. But that's not a fair comparison... if a guy with Russell's athletic and mental makeup grew up today, had modern nutrition, modern medicine, wore proper shoes, had tactical coaching, worked out using modern methods etc. is it a stretch to think he would be way better? Heck based on his body build and physical abilties he might be a much more athletic Kevin Garnett which is a scary thought. He may well be the GOAT today.

"He didn't average enough points per game"

They're not serious thinkers, these people.

[Airupthere]

Dismissing Russell shows how subjective greatness is. People don't like a guy as GOAT who dominated with post defense in a vertically-challenged paint-oriented era but they like modern guys who dominate a defensively-challenged perimeter-oriented era with perimeter offense.

The time machine argument is stupid. Of course Russell would be a lot worse in today's NBA than let's say Lebron would be in the 60's if they magically time travelled. But that's not a fair comparison... if a guy with Russell's athletic and mental makeup grew up today, had modern nutrition, modern medicine, wore proper shoes, had tactical coaching, worked out using modern methods etc. is it a stretch to think he would be way better? Heck based on his body build and physical abilties he might be a much more athletic Kevin Garnett which is a scary thought. He may well be the GOAT today.

You can try and look at how far a player has excelled compared to his contemporaries given the rules and gameplay of his time. Bill certainly excelled above most in his era with a lot of intangibles and aspects he brought to the game.

Lebron compared to todays era, aside from his size and athleticism, has not really figured out individual skills that would make you think he’s doing things better than the pack. He had to be tutored by hakeem and still has average footwork.

If Bill grew up in this era, he would have been one of the best players in the league.

[StrongLurk]

I've always had Bill Russell ahead of MJ on my GOAT lists and so does everyone else I know.

[Uncle Drew]

The problem is that there is no problem. You're just looking for one because your delusional ass cannot comprehend or accept anything. That's why your life is pathetic.

[Vino24]

Op can you explain why 11 is better than 6?

[Wally450]

OP made this thread, got clowned, and dipped.