How we know Lebron just might be the GOAT....

[sdot_thadon]

We've got all the stat and accolade conversations that have been had to exhaustion for many, and I won't post a single number here. This is all psychological. Since he entered the league Lebron has had a rotating horde of fans diametrically opposed to him and his career. Even if it meant rooting for rivals , cheering injuries and other disgusting lows a sports fan can reach. Sometimes looking like complete idiots just for the cause of "anyone but Lebron", throwing any sensible thought out of the window. Now stans have existed forever and isn't a new phenomena, however "bizarro stans" are something I hadn't really seen until Kobe and Floyd Mayweather. Lebron has bizzaro stans, these are guys that hated on him because he got a tattoo, tell you that his legacy is riding on every other moment of his career, run to these boards to post because his team is down 10, or because his 2nd option got Injured. Maybe they just flood the board with 10s of thousands of posts to try to convince you he isn't great. Or that he will somehow be exposed in year 28 as if nothing he's done up to this point counts. Maybe they really believe that 🤔. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen another athlete with this group of narratives surrounding them for so long.

You just might be the goat when people have to waste this much energy to prove you aren't....

[FultzNationRISE]

“Just might be?”


OP, may I see you in my office please?

[Kblaze8855]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MisguidedDistinctLeopard-size_restricted.gif





That is all I have to add at the moment.

[sdot_thadon]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MisguidedDistinctLeopard-size_restricted.gif





That is all I have to add at the moment.

:oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

“Just might be?”


OP, may I see you in my office please?

Hey I'm open to the idea that he is and he isn't. It's a pretty subjective topic so I don't really see it in absolutes.

[FultzNationRISE]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MisguidedDistinctLeopard-size_restricted.gif





That is all I have to add at the moment.



https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0149/0347/products/EmptyName_1024x1024.jpg?v=1549404086https://files.steinhafels.com/up/367ad987-40ca-4393-ac07-be07e3bff5f0_Office_1140.jpg

[I'm Smart]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MisguidedDistinctLeopard-size_restricted.gif





That is all I have to add at the moment.

Pay attention, children. This is how a player, and let's call him Kobe Bryant in this case, sells the idea to the media and the casual public that he is a lock down defender. By going excessively hard on a meaningless possession of a meaningless regular season game when he happens to be guarding the other team's star player during a nationally televised game. One might even be able to sell this lie for a career and rack up a plethora of meaningless regular season accolades that paint an overarching false narrative about how their career actually played out.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

18 years in, 36 years old and still putting in that work. Still arguably the best in the game.

Me personally? I can't hate on that. Like why would I hate on someone whose dedicated THAT much time into their craft? And remains head and shoulders above basically everyone else.

Had Mike played in this era, though, he'd get a lot of these weirdo haters too. He had them back then but with social media and forums, everything is magnified. And exaggerated.

[sdot_thadon]

Pay attention, children. This is how a player, and let's call him Kobe Bryant in this case, sells the idea to the media and the casual public that he is a lock down defender. By going excessively hard on a meaningless possession of a meaningless regular season game when he happens to be guarding the other team's star player during a nationally televised game. One might even be able to sell this lie for a career and rack up a plethora of meaningless regular season accolades that paint an overarching false narrative about how their career actually played out.

Nah, that was just Kobe taking the challenge personally for a possession and pushing his shit In. Happens with great players from time to time. Lebron improved a ton skill wise from that moment though...

[Gohan]

Pay attention, children. This is how a player, and let's call him Kobe Bryant in this case, sells the idea to the media and the casual public that he is a lock down defender. By going excessively hard on a meaningless possession of a meaningless regular season game when he happens to be guarding the other team's star player during a nationally televised game. One might even be able to sell this lie for a career and rack up a plethora of meaningless regular season accolades that paint an overarching false narrative about how their career actually played out.

Same delusional calling lebron goat

[sdot_thadon]

18 years in, 36 years old and still putting in that work. Still arguably the best in the game.

Me personally? I can't hate on that. Like why would I hate on someone whose dedicated THAT much time into their craft? And remains head and shoulders above basically everyone else.

Had Mike played in this era, though, he'd get a lot of these weirdo haters too. He had them back then but with social media and forums, everything is magnified. And exaggerated.

Yeah I agree, but you're not even close to the guys I'm referring to. You're capable of an objective discussion.

[SATAN]

I agree bro people like 3ball just prove LeBron is the greatest basketball player of all time

[Axe]

“Just might be?”


OP, may I see you in my office please?
:roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah I agree, but you're not even close to the guys I'm referring to. You're capable of an objective discussion.

Oh ya, wasn't insinuating you thought that about me. I'm more or less speaking on how(?) you can hate on that level of greatness.

Bron reminds me of Brady. Unless they're playing your team, at this point its just...hard to hate.

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't even care if you dislike the guy, that's sports, not every athlete is going to be liked, esp one with as much exposure as LeBron. What I find weird about it are the crazy delusions about him on this place. People legitimately claiming he isn't top 10, ranked behind players he surpassed YEARS ago in the eyes of virtually everybone else, and dudes like tpols literally believing Jason Kidd was better than him. Then I look at 3ball and legitimately begin to understand what happens to QAnon supporters.

I agree the myriad of posters who literally do nothing but hate on LeBron are weird, but it's the disconnect between his perception here and everywhere else that I find the most unusual.

I also guarantee you, 100%, that if LeBron loses this year or doesn't have a great playoff run, he's going to get clowned for it and people will claim his legacy's destroyed etc, when no other player in history has had expectations for them at 36 or beyond

[dankok8]

That's a weird argument. There's a lot of people saying he isn't the GOAT because he isn't. I used to love Lebron. You can check my post history. However the last couple of years the media narratives are getting out of hand. This is a guy who at age 27 was called a total fraud and joke (which is an exaggeration in the other direction) and suddenly in his mid-30's he's the GOAT. It's not surprising because it happens in all sports. The media has to tout a current player as the GOAT to keep up the interest. Most young generations are annoyed constantly hearing about players they never watched. Most modern fans don't give a crap about Jordan let alone Kareem or Russell. They like to think the current greats are GOAT's. And that's good for business. Happens in every sport...

[dankok8]

I don't even care if you dislike the guy, that's sports, not every athlete is going to be liked, esp one with as much exposure as LeBron. What I find weird about it are the crazy delusions about him on this place. People legitimately claiming he isn't top 10, ranked behind players he surpassed YEARS ago in the eyes of virtually everybone else, and dudes like tpols literally believing Jason Kidd was better than him. Then I look at 3ball and legitimately begin to understand what happens to QAnon supporters.

I agree the myriad of posters who literally do nothing but hate on LeBron are weird, but it's the disconnect between his perception here and everywhere else that I find the most unusual.

I also guarantee you, 100%, that if LeBron loses this year or doesn't have a great playoff run, he's going to get clowned for it and people will claim his legacy's destroyed etc, when no other player in history has had expectations for them at 36 or beyond

I actually agree with most of this. The clowning if he loses is also ridiculous.

[sdot_thadon]

Oh ya, wasn't insinuating you thought that about me. I'm more or less speaking on how(?) you can hate on that level of greatness.

Bron reminds me of Brady. Unless they're playing your team, at this point its just...hard to hate.

I hear ya, I never cared for Brady, and was a fan of Peyton Manning. I've never rooted for Brady, even one game but at some point long ago I gave him his due. He's that guy even though he's not "my" guy. :applause:


I don't even care if you dislike the guy, that's sports, not every athlete is going to be liked, esp one with as much exposure as LeBron. What I find weird about it are the crazy delusions about him on this place. People legitimately claiming he isn't top 10, ranked behind players he surpassed YEARS ago in the eyes of virtually everybone else, and dudes like tpols literally believing Jason Kidd was better than him. Then I look at 3ball and legitimately begin to understand what happens to QAnon supporters.

I agree the myriad of posters who literally do nothing but hate on LeBron are weird, but it's the disconnect between his perception here and everywhere else that I find the most unusual.

I also guarantee you, 100%, that if LeBron loses this year or doesn't have a great playoff run, he's going to get clowned for it and people will claim his legacy's destroyed etc, when no other player in history has had expectations for them at 36 or beyond
The last part of your post is exactly what I'm speaking on. Who's legacy has ever been considered "up in the air" after 17 all time great seasons? These guys have set 100 bars for LeBron and he's Superman leaped over 99% of them....

[RRR3]

I don't even care if you dislike the guy, that's sports, not every athlete is going to be liked, esp one with as much exposure as LeBron. What I find weird about it are the crazy delusions about him on this place. People legitimately claiming he isn't top 10, ranked behind players he surpassed YEARS ago in the eyes of virtually everybone else, and dudes like tpols literally believing Jason Kidd was better than him. Then I look at 3ball and legitimately begin to understand what happens to QAnon supporters.

I agree the myriad of posters who literally do nothing but hate on LeBron are weird, but it's the disconnect between his perception here and everywhere else that I find the most unusual.

I also guarantee you, 100%, that if LeBron loses this year or doesn't have a great playoff run, he's going to get clowned for it and people will claim his legacy's destroyed etc, when no other player in history has had expectations for them at 36 or beyond
It’s gonna get REALLY bad if he wins his fifth this year.

[sdot_thadon]

That's a weird argument. There's a lot of people saying he isn't the GOAT because he isn't. I used to love Lebron. You can check my post history. However the last couple of years the media narratives are getting out of hand. This is a guy who at age 27 was called a total fraud and joke (which is an exaggeration in the other direction) and suddenly in his mid-30's he's the GOAT. It's not surprising because it happens in all sports. The media has to tout a current player as the GOAT to keep up the interest. Most young generations are annoyed constantly hearing about players they never watched. Most modern fans don't give a crap about Jordan let alone Kareem or Russell. They like to think the current greats are GOAT's. And that's good for business. Happens in every sport...

It's not an argument, more like an observation. The narratives existed even for your guy, trust me they did. Only difference is at that time you were too young to know know exactly what bullshit smelled like. He can be the goat, soemone else's goat even though he's not yours. I don't think goat is a thing you can secure, it's a preference for fans and the real issue is not many people have the same criteria so you basically argue in different languages from each other and all walk away feeling like you're right. I'm a fan of both guys and they are right there with a couple of others in the conversation for me. And funnily enough you refer to ridiculous narratives in his favor meanwhile riding with the ridiculous ones to the contrary. At the end of the day I just believe if this guy truly doesn't belong in the discussion, it shouldn't require so much energy to prove it to be true.

[Airupthere]

Pay attention, children. This is how a player, and let's call him Kobe Bryant in this case, sells the idea to the media and the casual public that he is a lock down defender. By going excessively hard on a meaningless possession of a meaningless regular season game when he happens to be guarding the other team's star player during a nationally televised game. One might even be able to sell this lie for a career and rack up a plethora of meaningless regular season accolades that paint an overarching false narrative about how their career actually played out.

That is how you make a statement though. You can when you want to. And he’s done that to lebron on more than one occasion. In terms of selling to the media, dont forget to mention one of the best at it which is the guy thats been clamped by kobe in that gif.

[3ball]

I don't even care if you dislike the guy, that's sports, not every athlete is going to be liked, esp one with as much exposure as LeBron. What I find weird about it are the crazy delusions about him on this place. People legitimately claiming he isn't top 10, ranked behind players he surpassed YEARS ago in the eyes of virtually everybone else, and dudes like tpols literally believing Jason Kidd was better than him. Then I look at 3ball and legitimately begin to understand what happens to QAnon supporters.

I agree the myriad of posters who literally do nothing but hate on LeBron are weird, but it's the disconnect between his perception here and everywhere else that I find the most unusual.

I also guarantee you, 100%, that if LeBron loses this year or doesn't have a great playoff run, he's going to get clowned for it and people will claim his legacy's destroyed etc, when no other player in history has had expectations for them at 36 or beyond


Lebron stacked the deck

he openly teamed up with all the best players and then mostly lost

It's common for people who hate fakeness to despise that

Lebron is the basketball version of Kardashian

[3ball]

It's not an argument, more like an observation. The narratives existed even for your guy, trust me they did. Only difference is at that time you were too young to know know exactly what bullshit smelled like. He can be the goat, soemone else's goat even though he's not yours. I don't think goat is a thing you can secure, it's a preference for fans and the real issue is not many people have the same criteria so you basically argue in different languages from each other and all walk away feeling like you're right. I'm a fan of both guys and they are right there with a couple of others in the conversation for me. And funnily enough you refer to ridiculous narratives in his favor meanwhile riding with the ridiculous ones to the contrary. At the end of the day I just believe if this guy truly doesn't belong in the discussion, it shouldn't require so much energy to prove it to be true.


Everyone said that if Jordan 3-peated, he would be considered better than Bird/Magic because a 3-peat was better than anything Magic/Bird did

Otoh, there is no substantial body of work of Lebron's that is superior to anything Jordan did

That's the difference.. And longevity means nothing because karl malone, kareem and kobe make the same argument.. and playing at a lower level for longer means nothing about being better at basketball

[light]

We've got all the stat and accolade conversations that have been had to exhaustion for many, and I won't post a single number here. This is all psychological. Since he entered the league Lebron has had a rotating horde of fans diametrically opposed to him and his career. Even if it meant rooting for rivals , cheering injuries and other disgusting lows a sports fan can reach. Sometimes looking like complete idiots just for the cause of "anyone but Lebron", throwing any sensible thought out of the window. Now stans have existed forever and isn't a new phenomena, however "bizarro stans" are something I hadn't really seen until Kobe and Floyd Mayweather. Lebron has bizzaro stans, these are guys that hated on him because he got a tattoo, tell you that his legacy is riding on every other moment of his career, run to these boards to post because his team is down 10, or because his 2nd option got Injured. Maybe they just flood the board with 10s of thousands of posts to try to convince you he isn't great. Or that he will somehow be exposed in year 28 as if nothing he's done up to this point counts. Maybe they really believe that 🤔. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen another athlete with this group of narratives surrounding them for so long.

You just might be the goat when people have to waste this much energy to prove you aren't....

Your post is a great companion to the last paragraph underlined in red below from CBS Sports.

https://s2.gifyu.com/images/lebron-brady-parrallels.png

[dankok8]

It's not an argument, more like an observation. The narratives existed even for your guy, trust me they did. Only difference is at that time you were too young to know know exactly what bullshit smelled like. He can be the goat, soemone else's goat even though he's not yours. I don't think goat is a thing you can secure, it's a preference for fans and the real issue is not many people have the same criteria so you basically argue in different languages from each other and all walk away feeling like you're right. I'm a fan of both guys and they are right there with a couple of others in the conversation for me. And funnily enough you refer to ridiculous narratives in his favor meanwhile riding with the ridiculous ones to the contrary. At the end of the day I just believe if this guy truly doesn't belong in the discussion, it shouldn't require so much energy to prove it to be true.

Who is my guy? If you mean MJ of course there were bullshit narratives surrounding him like he was superhuman/untouchable whatever. He obviously wasn't untouchable but comparing him and Lebron one can objectively conclude that MJ was better. Most credible media people who were alive to watch MJ in his prime say that MJ was the better basketball player. Like 90% of them...

It doesn't take a lot of energy to show Lebron isn't the GOAT. He is an inferior player with fewer rings.

But yea like you said... different criteria. I value winning and dominance and I always judge relative to their own eras. It's impossible to compare different eras. So if player A is better compared to his era than player B is better compared to his era then player A is better.

[999Guy]

Who is my guy? If you mean MJ of course there were bullshit narratives surrounding him like he was superhuman/untouchable whatever. He obviously wasn't untouchable but comparing him and Lebron one can objectively conclude that MJ was better. Most credible media people who were alive to watch MJ in his prime say that MJ was the better basketball player. Like 90% of them...

It doesn't take a lot of energy to show Lebron isn't the GOAT. He is an inferior player with fewer rings.

But yea like you said... different criteria. I value winning and dominance and I always judge relative to their own eras. It's impossible to compare different eras. So if player A is better compared to his era than player B is better compared to his era then player A is better.

Inferior player with fewer rings.

And I’m supposed to believe this, and believe you because you believe other people?

You said this nonsense about the media creating narratives but used the ring argument and media opinions....ugh, just shutup.

LeBron has played more great basketball in the NBA than Jordan and the gap will just get wider with years.

LeBron has defense over Jordan in a big big way. He’s done unbelievable things defensively against insane talent. The 16 finals isn’t just some hype.

He changed narratives with that series because legitimately played like peak Magic and peak Russell on O and D against an unbelievably good team to beat them and close out a series.

It opened eyes to just how good he can possibly play.

But I think a year like 2009 where he just completely destroyed everything on both ends for nearly 100 games makes me know his peak is very easily on the level of Jordan if not better.

If you go back and analyze those two seasons in context maybe you won’t say shit as dumb as this again, maybe.

[3ball]

.

LeBron has played more great basketball in the NBA





So has Karl Malone, Kobe and Kareem

But no one reached the caliber of Jordan, aka scoring champ + DPOY from 88-98', with goat winning*

* top 5 dpoy voting

[Gimmedarock]

Strictly eye test for me bruh. Bill Russell got rings and he ain’t no goat. Duncan got rings but he ain’t no goat. When I watch Bron Bron, I can see he’s a master on the court. Tom Brady got rings and he’s obviously a winner but is he the most talented guy to play QB? Come on now. Bron had dis locked up long time now. He be goat for years.

[dankok8]

Inferior player with fewer rings.

And I’m supposed to believe this, and believe you because you believe other people?

You said this nonsense about the media creating narratives but used the ring argument and media opinions....ugh, just shutup.

LeBron has played more great basketball in the NBA than Jordan and the gap will just get wider with years.

LeBron has defense over Jordan in a big big way. He’s done unbelievable things defensively against insane talent. The 16 finals isn’t just some hype.

He changed narratives with that series because legitimately played like peak Magic and peak Russell on O and D against an unbelievably good team to beat them and close out a series.

It opened eyes to just how good he can possibly play.

But I think a year like 2009 where he just completely destroyed everything on both ends for nearly 100 games makes me know his peak is very easily on the level of Jordan if not better.

If you go back and analyze those two seasons in context maybe you won’t say shit as dumb as this again, maybe.

He is an inferior player when both guys are at his best. Post the numbers over their best 3 years or 5 years or 10 years. MJ beats Lebron by ~5 ppg and averaged like 1 apg fewer. Lebron's defensive rebounding can't even come close to make up for that big of a deficit. MJ simply did more on offense. The stats say so. MJ is basically a 34/6/6 player and Lebron a 29/9/7 player. Lebron slightly better efficiency but Jordan fewer turnovers. That's a pretty large edge to Jordan IMO.

I don't look at 2009 Lebron in a vacuum. 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011 Lebron was nowhere near MJ's level in the playoffs. Like not even within a mile. 2009 was an outlier. Lebron only entered his true prime in 2012. And probably exited it around 2017 when his defensive motor started to really plummet.

Lebron wasn't much better defensively than Jordan. There is no evidence for that. I'm not a fan of plus-minus based stats so I don't usually bring them up but MJ has higher career PIPM than Lebron and never had postseason collapses defensively the way Lebron did in 2014, 2017 and 2018. But heck we can call defense a draw. Both guys in their peak were great defenders. Even if you wanna say Lebron was very slightly better Jordan's defensive longevity makes up for that easily. That isn't an argument for either side IMO.

By the way it's not just MJ. Kareem at his peak was also better than Lebron. Statistics and impact metrics prove it. Kareem at his best was a 32/14/4 player on better scoring efficiency than Lebron and had elite big man defensive impact. And several other players like Bird, Shaq etc. are on the same tier. You can't really say peak Lebron is better than peak Shaq for instance.

The only part I can agree with that you said is "LeBron has played more great basketball in the NBA than Jordan and the gap will just get wider with years."

That's a fair statement but that's a longevity argument. Isn't Karl Malone better than a lot of guys in that case? Longevity arguments work IMO if two guys are on equal level and one guy did it longer. But if one player is clearly better longevity can't make up for it.

For instance I can put Karl Malone over Dirk all time because I can't really decide who's definitely better between the two of them and then Karl's longevity wins out. But in Jordan vs. Lebron and Kareem vs. Lebron I can't take Lebron over either because I'm not convinced that Lebron is on the same level as a basketball player. And I can't take anyone (even Jordan or Kareem) over Russell because 11 rings are just insane and impossible to overlook. Still longevity is helping Lebron surpass everyone else and cement #4 all time in my book which is very impressive!

:cheers:

[2much_knowledge]

Everyone said that if Jordan 3-peated, he would be considered better than Bird/Magic because a 3-peat was better than anything Magic/Bird did

Otoh, there is no substantial body of work of Lebron's that is superior to anything Jordan did

That's the difference.. And longevity means nothing because karl malone, kareem and kobe make the same argument.. and playing at a lower level for longer means nothing about being better at basketball

Well put. Lebron's ceiling is #2. No matter what he does. And thats real talk. No hater talk. He is in the goat tier. But MJ is so much far ahead of everyone its almost unfair

[999Guy]

He is an inferior player when both guys are at his best. Post the numbers over their best 3 years or 5 years or 10 years. MJ beats Lebron by ~5 ppg and averaged like 1 apg fewer. Lebron's defensive rebounding can't even come close to make up for that big of a deficit. MJ simply did more on offense. The stats say so. MJ is basically a 34/6/6 player and Lebron a 29/9/7 player. Lebron slightly better efficiency but Jordan fewer turnovers. That's a pretty large edge to Jordan IMO.

I don't look at 2009 Lebron in a vacuum. 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011 Lebron was nowhere near MJ's level in the playoffs. Like not even within a mile. 2009 was an outlier. Lebron only entered his true prime in 2012. And probably exited it around 2017 when his defensive motor started to really plummet.

Lebron wasn't much better defensively than Jordan. There is no evidence for that. I'm not a fan of plus-minus based stats so I don't usually bring them up but MJ has higher career PIPM than Lebron and never had postseason collapses defensively the way Lebron did in 2014, 2017 and 2018. But heck we can call defense a draw. Both guys in their peak were great defenders. Even if you wanna say Lebron was very slightly better Jordan's defensive longevity makes up for that easily. That isn't an argument for either side IMO.

By the way it's not just MJ. Kareem at his peak was also better than Lebron. Statistics and impact metrics prove it. Kareem at his best was a 32/14/4 player on better scoring efficiency than Lebron and had elite big man defensive impact. And several other players like Bird, Shaq etc. are on the same tier. You can't really say peak Lebron is better than peak Shaq for instance.

The only part I can agree with that you said is "LeBron has played more great basketball in the NBA than Jordan and the gap will just get wider with years."

That's a fair statement but that's a longevity argument. Isn't Karl Malone better than a lot of guys in that case? Longevity arguments work IMO if two guys are on equal level and one guy did it longer. But if one player is clearly better longevity can't make up for it.

For instance I can put Karl Malone over Dirk all time because I can't really decide who's definitely better between the two of them and then Karl's longevity wins out. But in Jordan vs. Lebron and Kareem vs. Lebron I can't take Lebron over either because I'm not convinced that Lebron is on the same level as a basketball player. And I can't take anyone (even Jordan or Kareem) over Russell because 11 rings are just insane and impossible to overlook. Still longevity is helping Lebron surpass everyone else and cement #4 all time in my book which is very impressive!

:cheers:
Sigh.

There is no point in even unraveling this, and please trust me I could. Especially that whole 09 LeBron was a fluke theory you got there. Ugh.

But, Jordan being worse than LeBron defensively is really common sense.

Asking you to be NBA scout level and really know it for a fact by eye is much. Asking you to believe me is a bit much.

But LeBron, is a smarter, more athletic player with better habits than Jordan. Habits being Jordan’s horrible gambling tendencies.

LeBron is a legitimate rim protector and defensive rebounder in a way of actually filling real front court holes.

LeBron is essentially a big man, especially compared to Jordan. But he’s also fast NBA guard fast. Like 24 year old LeBron was not JR Smith fast who is fast, a great athlete -but no instead he was John Wall fast. Like fastest on the court fast. But again he was a legitimate big man essentially.

And had better court vision than Jordan on both ends. Yeah they’re not really close in that department. Stop thinking about how much you’ve been trained to think Jordan was god for a second(even if you didn’t fully buy in, it works over years somewhat), and think of the attributes I described with no names attached, it is extremely unlikely for the SG I described to be better defensively than the SF I just described.

[sdot_thadon]

Who is my guy? If you mean MJ of course there were bullshit narratives surrounding him like he was superhuman/untouchable whatever. He obviously wasn't untouchable but comparing him and Lebron one can objectively conclude that MJ was better. Most credible media people who were alive to watch MJ in his prime say that MJ was the better basketball player. Like 90% of them...

It doesn't take a lot of energy to show Lebron isn't the GOAT. He is an inferior player with fewer rings.

But yea like you said... different criteria. I value winning and dominance and I always judge relative to their own eras. It's impossible to compare different eras. So if player A is better compared to his era than player B is better compared to his era then player A is better.
Yeah I made an assumption it was Mj. The interesting thing here is you use the word objectively but immediately pivot in the opposite direction. Not sure if you realize, but there was a point in time where 90% of that same crowd of credible media felt the same way about Wilt. It's a cycle and a few years from now that same group will 90% feel Lebron is. Russell will always have more rings than Mj but won't ever have enough people left who witnessed him to give you a real snapshot of his greatness, same will be true for Mj sooner or later. Some people felt that Russell was the embodiment of basketball and that guys like Mj and Wilt were simply scorers. Different strokes for different folks I guess.


Everyone said that if Jordan 3-peated, he would be considered better than Bird/Magic because a 3-peat was better than anything Magic/Bird did

Otoh, there is no substantial body of work of Lebron's that is superior to anything Jordan did

That's the difference.. And longevity means nothing because karl malone, kareem and kobe make the same argument.. and playing at a lower level for longer means nothing about being better at basketball
But honestly they already knew he was better long before he ever 3peated. And the argument Lebron has is seen by looking for boxes to check that Mj already did. It's the things he's done and can do Mj wasn't capable of. I'll reiterate, Lebron's longevity isn't anything like those other guys'...maybe Malone but there was never a question if he was as good as Mike and he never managed to win anything. The other guys' longevity is bookended by years as shells of themselves at the end, more specifically shells of themselves by this timestamp of their careers Lebron is currently playing and being an Mvp candidate and finals mvp in. Not even remotely close to the same thing.

[3ball]

.


But honestly they already knew he was better long before he ever 3peated. And the argument Lebron has is seen by looking for boxes to check that Mj already did. It's the things he's done and can do Mj wasn't capable of. I'll reiterate, Lebron's longevity isn't anything like those other guys'...maybe Malone but there was never a question if he was as good as Mike and he never managed to win anything. The other guys' longevity is bookended by years as shells of themselves at the end, more specifically shells of themselves by this timestamp of their careers Lebron is currently playing and being an Mvp candidate and finals mvp in. Not even remotely close to the same thing.


That's false - a few people thought Jordan was the best, but it wasn't the mainstream opinion until he 3-peated - he needed a substantial body of work that was better than Magic/Bird and the 3-peat was it...

Otoh, Lebron has no such body of work that was better than what Jordan did and therefore has no case

Ultimately, playing at a lower level for longer doesn't mean someone is better at basketball - it means they're worse - they're playing at a lower level

Lebron is #15 scorer and hasn't been all-defense in 8 years - that's a lower level than scoring champ and top 5 DPOY

[light]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b9/84/74/b98474b30156e2637b72c72d03f22efc.jpg

[3ball]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b9/84/74/b98474b30156e2637b72c72d03f22efc.jpg

.
MJ nearly won title with 90' Pippen, whereas Lebron was destroyed with guys > 90' Pippen


Lost as favorite to 1-star team with:

09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 0.165 WS/48.. 2.3 BPM.. 3.1 VORP
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP


Swept 4-0 to Spurs with:

05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 0.157 WS/48.. 4.3 BPM.. 3.7 VORP.. 1st team all-def
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP


Lottery with:

05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. -0.2 BPM.. 1.2 VORP
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP


Lottery with:

20' Ingram..'..... 18.8 PER.. 0.115 WS/48.. 1.8 BPM.. 2.2 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. 1.8 BPM . 3.0 VORP


^^^ 20' Ingram was used instead of 19' Ingram because Lebron's presence clearly caused a 1-year crater of Ingram's PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48 in 2019.

Similarly, Lebron cratered Hughes in 06', so Hughes 05' stats were used (his true capability)


CONCLUSION: title




you don't deserve Goat talk. Sorry.





09' Cavs'..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
89' Bulls... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... defeat #1 SRS Cavs' (3 all-stars)


The Cavs also had Ron Harper (20/5/5)

Those Cavs were a better team than lebron ever beat in the East, and MJ beat them with shit from Pippen and a shit team defense..

Ultimately, Lebron shot 30% on jumpers in the 4th quarter against Orlando and lost 3 fourth quarter leads - this included getting destroyed by Dwight in the critical Game 4 OT... Clutch and contested jumpshooting MATTERS.. it decides series

[dankok8]

Sigh.

There is no point in even unraveling this, and please trust me I could. Especially that whole 09 LeBron was a fluke theory you got there. Ugh.

But, Jordan being worse than LeBron defensively is really common sense.

Asking you to be NBA scout level and really know it for a fact by eye is much. Asking you to believe me is a bit much.

But LeBron, is a smarter, more athletic player with better habits than Jordan. Habits being Jordan’s horrible gambling tendencies.

LeBron is a legitimate rim protector and defensive rebounder in a way of actually filling real front court holes.

LeBron is essentially a big man, especially compared to Jordan. But he’s also fast NBA guard fast. Like 24 year old LeBron was not JR Smith fast who is fast, a great athlete -but no instead he was John Wall fast. Like fastest on the court fast. But again he was a legitimate big man essentially.

And had better court vision than Jordan on both ends. Yeah they’re not really close in that department. Stop thinking about how much you’ve been trained to think Jordan was god for a second(even if you didn’t fully buy in, it works over years somewhat), and think of the attributes I described with no names attached, it is extremely unlikely for the SG I described to be better defensively than the SF I just described.

I didn't say it's a fluke but Lebron wasn't magically a different player in 2009 than in 2008 or 2010 was he? You have to take his surrounding years into account as well. Thus it's fair to conclude 2012 onwards was Lebron's peak. 2009 looks like it could be but 2010 and 2011 sure aren't.

Yep... MJ spent a lot of time in a casino playing craps and blackjack supposedly.. Gambling for steals? Yea but the Bulls defensive system was made to maximize that. His gambled so that it rarely backfired but payed off huge when he did it successfully because he was a wrecking crew on the break. He struck fear into players with his defense too. "The Black Cat" is what they called him...

Lebron is not a legit rim protector. He never averaged over 1.1 bpg in his career. His dFG% on 2pt shots is nowhere near that of elite defensive bigs. There is just no basis in reality for that argument. Of course neither was Jordan. Neither is a primary rim protector.

Defensive rebounding has little value especially grabbing mostly uncontested defensive boards. Lebron doesn't spend a lot of energy boxing out under the rim. In fact his teammates often box out and he just picks up the caroms to start fast breaks. Not blaming him for it because it's a great strategy but those boards don't add much defensive value.

In terms of quickness, MJ had better lateral quicks sliding his feet, could jump faster and higher off of one and two feet. That's often a lot more useful than straight line speed. And besides I'm not even sure Lebron has better straight line speed than MJ. And certainly not better than or same as John Wall.

Lebron does have better court vision than Jordan in terms of finding passes... any reasonable person would concede that. But Jordan is also a vastly superior scorer. Any reasonable person would concede that too.

Bottom line is prime Jordan is a 34/6/6 player with elite defense. Prime Lebron is a 29/9/7 player with elite defense. They are very close in efficiency with Lebron having a bit higher TS% but Jordan lower turnovers. Overall Jordan put up clearly superior numbers. And also won more.

[dankok8]

Yeah I made an assumption it was Mj. The interesting thing here is you use the word objectively but immediately pivot in the opposite direction. Not sure if you realize, but there was a point in time where 90% of that same crowd of credible media felt the same way about Wilt. It's a cycle and a few years from now that same group will 90% feel Lebron is. Russell will always have more rings than Mj but won't ever have enough people left who witnessed him to give you a real snapshot of his greatness, same will be true for Mj sooner or later. Some people felt that Russell was the embodiment of basketball and that guys like Mj and Wilt were simply scorers. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

If your argument is that the best player of the current or recent generation will be the most common choice for GOAT among the general public, of course I agree! But then what's the point of debating. If Kareem is automatically over Russell, MJ is automatically over Kareem, and Lebron is automatically over MJ then why bother calling Lebron the GOAT when we know that some new kid will be the GOAT in a decade? Kind of defeats the purpose and seems ridiculous.

That's why the GOAT should be the player who is the best relative to their own era. Every other way just makes no sense to me.


But honestly they already knew he was better long before he ever 3peated. And the argument Lebron has is seen by looking for boxes to check that Mj already did. It's the things he's done and can do Mj wasn't capable of. I'll reiterate, Lebron's longevity isn't anything like those other guys'...maybe Malone but there was never a question if he was as good as Mike and he never managed to win anything. The other guys' longevity is bookended by years as shells of themselves at the end, more specifically shells of themselves by this timestamp of their careers Lebron is currently playing and being an Mvp candidate and finals mvp in. Not even remotely close to the same thing.


To be fair Kareem has 17 years as an MVP candidate from his rookie year to 1970 to 1986. Lebron is now in his 17th year as an MVP candidate (he wasn't his rookie year).

I actually agree with 3ball who I almost never agree with on anything because he's very extreme in his views... but I agree that playing at a lower level longer can never beat someone playing at a higher level. Longevity is a tie-breaker for equal players. I don't see Lebron passing MJ/Kareem with longevity alone because prime Lebron not equal to them in their primes. With leading his teams to rings yes that can work... because rings are tied to dominance. If Lebron gets 7 FMVP's I'll put him over MJ and Kareem. Russell though has to be GOAT in a way no matter what.

[3ball]

3ball is very extreme in his views...





post #35 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?490492-How-we-know-Lebron-just-might-be-the-GOAT&p=14252762&viewfull=1#post14252762) (above) is literally all stats

So it isn't "extreme".. but I suppose stats can seem extreme if you've never seen them before, or never seen them compared like that

The stats show that Jordan nearly won the title with 90' Pippen, while lebron was completely destroyed with numerous guys that produced much more than 90' Pippen, along with better team defenses (bulls had the #19 defense in 90')

Sorry, but that isn't extreme.. it's straight facts

[8Ball]

Eye test. He the GOAT since 2009.

[guy]

Your post is a great companion to the last paragraph underlined in red below from CBS Sports.

https://s2.gifyu.com/images/lebron-brady-parrallels.png

You forgot about the fact that Lebron has won less than Jordan while Brady has won almost twice as much as Montana. Thats one huge parallel they don't have.

[guy]

Crazy people being crazy people being an argument for one reason or another shouldn't really hold any weight. Thats just crazy people being crazy.

[3ball]

Crazy people being crazy people being an argument for one reason or another shouldn't really hold any weight. Thats just crazy people being crazy.


STATS GONNA STATS


MJ nearly won the title with 90' Pippen and the #19 team defense, whereas Lebron was destroyed with guys > 90' Pippen and top team defenses


Lost as favorite to 1-star team with:

09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 0.165 WS/48.. 2.3 BPM.. 3.1 VORP
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP


Lottery with:

05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. -0.2 BPM.. 1.2 VORP
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP

[Micku]

18 years in, 36 years old and still putting in that work. Still arguably the best in the game.

Me personally? I can't hate on that. Like why would I hate on someone whose dedicated THAT much time into their craft? And remains head and shoulders above basically everyone else.

Had Mike played in this era, though, he'd get a lot of these weirdo haters too. He had them back then but with social media and forums, everything is magnified. And exaggerated.

Pretty much. I can't hate on that. Him playing this elite for so long is admirable and unprecedentedly in the game of basketball. I know that with modern medicine and nutrition, players could play for longer.

But LeBron James surpass his peer in playing longer and playing at this high of a level. Wade, Carmelo, and Bosh. I was more of a Wade fan cuz of his aesthetically pleasing play style. You just can't deny LeBron crazy athletic gifts tho.

I know Kareem and Karl Malone played similar in terms of longevity, but I argue that LeBron is playing even better.

When it comes to MJ, I don't think LeBron ever surpass him in offensive skillset. Even at his peak. But his peak was close. I really think either LeBron in 2013 in the regular season was close. And in 2018, LeBron was just unstoppable. There are moments where I thought he did surpass him in those skillsets, but the defense play him a certain way then I change my mind again. He is just really smart at taking his shots and a GOAT finisher. MJ you don't want to give him any room cuz he'll score almost anywhere on the court. Catch and shoot, off the ball movement, post up, finishing, midrange, and he hit his FTs. 3pt is sort'a weakness, tho he could shoot it. But they didn't shoot 3s that much back then. LeBron can't do all that as well MJ. He can't do that as well as KD either. It just the combination of his IQ, passing ability, scoring ability made his impact obviously one of the GOATs.

[999Guy]

I didn't say it's a fluke but Lebron wasn't magically a different player in 2009 than in 2008 or 2010 was he? You have to take his surrounding years into account as well. Thus it's fair to conclude 2012 onwards was Lebron's peak. 2009 looks like it could be but 2010 and 2011 sure aren't.

Yep... MJ spent a lot of time in a casino playing craps and blackjack supposedly.. Gambling for steals? Yea but the Bulls defensive system was made to maximize that. His gambled so that it rarely backfired but payed off huge when he did it successfully because he was a wrecking crew on the break. He struck fear into players with his defense too. "The Black Cat" is what they called him...

Lebron is not a legit rim protector. He never averaged over 1.1 bpg in his career. His dFG% on 2pt shots is nowhere near that of elite defensive bigs. There is just no basis in reality for that argument. Of course neither was Jordan. Neither is a primary rim protector.

Defensive rebounding has little value especially grabbing mostly uncontested defensive boards. Lebron doesn't spend a lot of energy boxing out under the rim. In fact his teammates often box out and he just picks up the caroms to start fast breaks. Not blaming him for it because it's a great strategy but those boards don't add much defensive value.

In terms of quickness, MJ had better lateral quicks sliding his feet, could jump faster and higher off of one and two feet. That's often a lot more useful than straight line speed. And besides I'm not even sure Lebron has better straight line speed than MJ. And certainly not better than or same as John Wall.

Lebron does have better court vision than Jordan in terms of finding passes... any reasonable person would concede that. But Jordan is also a vastly superior scorer. Any reasonable person would concede that too.

Bottom line is prime Jordan is a 34/6/6 player with elite defense. Prime Lebron is a 29/9/7 player with elite defense. They are very close in efficiency with Lebron having a bit higher TS% but Jordan lower turnovers. Overall Jordan put up clearly superior numbers. And also won more.

Yeah you’re too far gone. ‘tHe bLAcK CAt tHEy caLLEd HIm’, just.....ugh.


Jordan’s foot speed is supposed to be quicker than LeBron’s laterally, he’s a 195 pound guard at peak. The fact that I could really, truly debate you on how much quicker the guy was than a. Guy with half a foot of length and 60 pounds on him was says enough.

There are 09 LeBron defensive stats you could scrape up across the internet that paint a picture of a legitimate lockdown defender and borderline elite help defender.

Like turning all-star SF’s into scrubs statistically. To say nothing of what he did to the Warriors offense in the finals.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/7up4ep/stats_since_returning_to_cleveland_lebron_has/


In the past three postseasons, LeBron has held opposing players to 46.1% shooting around the rim in the playoffs. This would rank him as the best rim protector in the entire league this season.

Keep in mind is that he faces much better teams on a nightly basis in the playoffs than in the regular season.


Comparison of LeBron's rim protection in the Regular Season VS. Postseason (shots defended within 6 feet of the rim):

RS: Regular Season
PS: Postseason
Season RS DFG% PS DFG% Difference FG Faced Per RS Game FG Faced Per PS Game 2014-15 63.8% 52.9% -10.9% 2.2 3.6 2015-16 50.9% 38.5% -12.4% 2.3 3.1 2016-17 59.3% 46.4% -12.9% 3.7 4.7 2017-18 52.5% TBD TBD 4.0 TBD

Identical to Draymond, better than Capela and Gobert. OBVIOUSLY, Gobert still has deterrence over LeBron just by scaring guys off, and Capela less so, but LeBron is, like I said earlier, essentially a big man. He has all the defensive capabilities of one

And that’s old LeBron. Let alone the monster he was from 09-12 as far as speed and explosion.


You actually not believing LeBron adds rim protection to a team is just....good lord.
Defensive rebounding is a marginal defensive impact skill, but it does add to a teams defense and it’s something he has over Jordan in a clear way.


My bringing up LeBron’s court vision is to say, while being able to cover more ground than Jordan physically on defense, he’s also seeing plays develop better than him and plays smarter than him on defense because of this. Jordan is inferior to LeBron on defense physically and mentally. I know that’s hard to believe, cus BLACK CAT, but it’s true and fundamentally is easy to see if you are objective.

[Micku]

Sigh.

There is no point in even unraveling this, and please trust me I could. Especially that whole 09 LeBron was a fluke theory you got there. Ugh.

But, Jordan being worse than LeBron defensively is really common sense.

Asking you to be NBA scout level and really know it for a fact by eye is much. Asking you to believe me is a bit much.

But LeBron, is a smarter, more athletic player with better habits than Jordan. Habits being Jordan’s horrible gambling tendencies.

LeBron is a legitimate rim protector and defensive rebounder in a way of actually filling real front court holes.

LeBron is essentially a big man, especially compared to Jordan. But he’s also fast NBA guard fast. Like 24 year old LeBron was not JR Smith fast who is fast, a great athlete -but no instead he was John Wall fast. Like fastest on the court fast. But again he was a legitimate big man essentially.

And had better court vision than Jordan on both ends. Yeah they’re not really close in that department. Stop thinking about how much you’ve been trained to think Jordan was god for a second(even if you didn’t fully buy in, it works over years somewhat), and think of the attributes I described with no names attached, it is extremely unlikely for the SG I described to be better defensively than the SF I just described.

Like there is truth that LeBron is a better rim protector and MJ gambles on the steals, but there is details missing.

MJ is probably the better help defender. His crazy high motor I feel is better than LeBron's peak. His quickness on the passing lane and ability to trap at the right time lead to him having a lot of steals and blocks. I think he is the best blocking SG? Definitely the best in steals. And he might be the best in history in playing the passing lane. Due to this, teams would often not run plays on the side that MJ was on floor.

I was similar to think MJ was overrated in defense till watch the games and check stats afterwards tho. In their relative era, it's pretty crazy how impact MJ had at his peak defensively.

Like in 88, his DBPM is among the top 10 in Nba history. And his Dtrg was among the top 4 in the league that year. While the stats could be deceiving and not the end all to be all, and you have to use it in their relative era, I think MJ defense was really high here. We don't have any offical oFG%, but you could look at the games and see how well MJ does or doesn't do.

He didn't keep the same impact consistently like in his peak, but he was always the best at his position at it throughout his career.

LeBron is bigger and could fill in more holes as you said. He's also quick enough to keep with guards and big enough to guard a lot of 4s. Nowadays, he could guard 5s since ppl are playing small ball. I feel like at his peak, he had very similar impact as MJ did. His versatility made it so. As I said before, he never had the motor that MJ had, but he was great with help defense as well and switching off without losing much defensive ability.

One thing we cannot access for is the vocal leadership. We don't know how much LeBron or MJ communicates on defense to see everyone has their man, right position, and when to double or switch. We gott'a get that through interviews.

But overall, I feel like MJ was a more consistent defender in his era and at his position. I think he was continuously the best defender at his position. He had a crazy motor and stamina. He could guard 1-3, but limited on his size.
LeBron at his peak may have been better. He was bigger, more rim protection, more rebounds, and versatility. But I don't think he ever had the motor that MJ had.

Overall, you won't go bad for either or. MJ in 88 was the defensive anchor and made the Bulls a top 3 defensive team. Crazy as guard. Usually guards never have that much impact. LeBron at his peak was amazing too. Although in his later years, he wasn't as consistent. Often coasting. MJ did save some energy too for the offensive end, but still had better motor of off the ball defense.

[dankok8]

Yeah you’re too far gone. ‘tHe bLAcK CAt tHEy caLLEd HIm’, just.....ugh.


Jordan’s foot speed is supposed to be quicker than LeBron’s laterally, he’s a 195 pound guard at peak. The fact that I could really, truly debate you on how much quicker the guy was than a. Guy with half a foot of length and 60 pounds on him was says enough.

There are 09 LeBron defensive stats you could scrape up across the internet that paint a picture of a legitimate lockdown defender and borderline elite help defender.

Like turning all-star SF’s into scrubs statistically. To say nothing of what he did to the Warriors offense in the finals.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/7up4ep/stats_since_returning_to_cleveland_lebron_has/


Identical to Draymond, better than Capela and Gobert. OBVIOUSLY, Gobert still has deterrence over LeBron just by scaring guys off, and Capela less so, but LeBron is, like I said earlier, essentially a big man. He has all the defensive capabilities of one

And that’s old LeBron. Let alone the monster he was from 09-12 as far as speed and explosion.


You actually not believing LeBron adds rim protection to a team is just....good lord.
Defensive rebounding is a marginal defensive impact skill, but it does add to a teams defense and it’s something he has over Jordan in a clear way.


My bringing up LeBron’s court vision is to say, while being able to cover more ground than Jordan physically on defense, he’s also seeing plays develop better than him and plays smarter than him on defense because of this. Jordan is inferior to LeBron on defense physically and mentally. I know that’s hard to believe, cus BLACK CAT, but it’s true and fundamentally is easy to see if you are objective.

Comparing Lebron to the likes of Gobert is laughable. Rudy's impact on the defensive end is several times over Lebron. There's a reason LBJ hasn't made an All-Defensive team since 2014. Hint: It's not because the media dislike him.

MJ made more All-Defensive teams than Lebron and was basically a great defender for twice as long. But hey I'm willing to call it a wash on defense here. Throwing you a bone so to speak.

[dankok8]

Like there is truth that LeBron is a better rim protector and MJ gambles on the steals, but there is details missing.

MJ is probably the better help defender. His crazy high motor I feel is better than LeBron's peak. His quickness on the passing lane and ability to trap at the right time lead to him having a lot of steals and blocks. I think he is the best blocking SG? Definitely the best in steals. And he might be the best in history in playing the passing lane. Due to this, teams would often not run plays on the side that MJ was on floor.

I was similar to think MJ was overrated in defense till watch the games and check stats afterwards tho. In their relative era, it's pretty crazy how impact MJ had at his peak defensively.

Like in 88, his DBPM is among the top 10 in Nba history. And his Dtrg was among the top 4 in the league that year. While the stats could be deceiving and not the end all to be all, and you have to use it in their relative era, I think MJ defense was really high here. We don't have any offical oFG%, but you could look at the games and see how well MJ does or doesn't do.

He didn't keep the same impact consistently like in his peak, but he was always the best at his position at it throughout his career.

LeBron is bigger and could fill in more holes as you said. He's also quick enough to keep with guards and big enough to guard a lot of 4s. Nowadays, he could guard 5s since ppl are playing small ball. I feel like at his peak, he had very similar impact as MJ did. His versatility made it so. As I said before, he never had the motor that MJ had, but he was great with help defense as well and switching off without losing much defensive ability.

One thing we cannot access for is the vocal leadership. We don't know how much LeBron or MJ communicates on defense to see everyone has their man, right position, and when to double or switch. We gott'a get that through interviews.

But overall, I feel like MJ was a more consistent defender in his era and at his position. I think he was continuously the best defender at his position. He had a crazy motor and stamina. He could guard 1-3, but limited on his size.
LeBron at his peak may have been better. He was bigger, more rim protection, more rebounds, and versatility. But I don't think he ever had the motor that MJ had.

Overall, you won't go bad for either or. MJ in 88 was the defensive anchor and made the Bulls a top 3 defensive team. Crazy as guard. Usually guards never have that much impact. LeBron at his peak was amazing too. Although in his later years, he wasn't as consistent. Often coasting. MJ did save some energy too for the offensive end, but still had better motor of off the ball defense.

Good post.

I think MJ was a considerably better man-to-man defender on the perimeter. He's also better help defender when it comes to doubling where he may be the greatest ever... He just had a knack to sneaking behind guys posting up and poking the ball away or making them fumble it. See Karl Malone in G6 of the 1998 Finals. Also better at playing the passing lanes. It's easy to say "Oh MJ gambled for steals..." MJ was arguably the best at forcing turnovers in league history. And the Bulls' defense was built around his style. Pippen also gambled a lot by the way and to say it worked for the Bulls is an understatement. Teams were scared to pass the ball with Jordan (and Pippen) lurking. Lebron is a bit more versatile in that he can guard some PF's and grabs a few more defensive boards. But again like I said I don't think those defensive boards add much impact because Lebron isn't under the rim boxing out. Often his teams let him grab the boards to start breaks. At rim protection Lebron is better.. probably but it's worth noting that peak defensive MJ in 1988 averaged more blocks than any version of Lebron and by a lot too. MJ just had a revving motor. Energy is everything on D.

At the end I called it a wash which I thought was generous considering MJ has almost double the All-Defensive teams and never had bad moments defensively like Lebron in 2014, 2017 and 2018 Finals... but these stans are so delusional they think Lebron was a much better defender. That stance just isn't rooted in reality.

[RRR3]

Good post.

I think MJ was a considerably better man-to-man defender on the perimeter. He's also better help defender when it comes to doubling where he may be the greatest ever... He just had a knack to sneaking behind guys posting up and poking the ball away or making them fumble it. See Karl Malone in G6 of the 1998 Finals. Also better at playing the passing lanes. It's easy to say "Oh MJ gambled for steals..." MJ was arguably the best at forcing turnovers in league history. And the Bulls' defense was built around his style. Pippen also gambled a lot by the way and to say it worked for the Bulls is an understatement. Teams were scared to pass the ball with Jordan (and Pippen) lurking. Lebron is a bit more versatile in that he can guard some PF's and grabs a few more defensive boards. But again like I said I don't think those defensive boards add much impact because Lebron isn't under the rim boxing out. Often his teams let him grab the boards to start breaks. At rim protection Lebron is better.. probably but it's worth noting that peak defensive MJ in 1988 averaged more blocks than any version of Lebron and by a lot too. MJ just had a revving motor. Energy is everything on D.

At the end I called it a wash which I thought was generous considering MJ has almost double the All-Defensive teams and never had bad moments defensively like Lebron in 2014, 2017 and 2018 Finals... but these stans are so delusional they think Lebron was a much better defender. That stance just isn't rooted in reality.
He averaged more blocks because more shots were taken inside. They both had a best of 2.4% in terms of block percentage in a full season.

[dankok8]

He averaged more blocks because more shots were taken inside. They both had a best of 2.4% in terms of block percentage in a full season.

Good point. But MJ played more minutes.

[999Guy]

Comparing Lebron to the likes of Gobert is laughable. Rudy's impact on the defensive end is several times over Lebron. There's a reason LBJ hasn't made an All-Defensive team since 2014. Hint: It's not because the media dislike him.

MJ made more All-Defensive teams than Lebron and was basically a great defender for twice as long. But hey I'm willing to call it a wash on defense here. Throwing you a bone so to speak.
Throwing me a bone? You’re running out of dumb narratives. I really have no effort in dignifying your opinions and yet still you’re down to saying all-defensive teams matter at all in any way.

I brought actual facts and common sense, LeBron and Gobert are comparable as playoff rim protectors because of reality, not me.

Carry on dummy.

[dankok8]

Throwing me a bone? You’re running out of dumb narratives. I really have no effort in dignifying your opinions and yet still you’re down to saying all-defensive teams matter at all in any way.

I brought actual facts and common sense, LeBron and Gobert are comparable as playoff rim protectors because of reality, not me.

Carry on dummy.

Lebron is no where close to any great defensive big man in terms of impact. Neither is MJ of course.

You should know that. It's basic for someone who claims to understand basketball.

[999Guy]

Lebron is no where close to any great defensive big man in terms of impact. Neither is MJ of course.

You should know that. It's basic for someone who claims to understand basketball.

Again, I’m sure your great opinion is founded by something more logical than nicknames and media awards.

[999Guy]

And I’m not saying LeBron is Gobert level on defense, though he’s been there for stretches in his playoff career.


I’m saying the blend of versatility and defensive big man capabilities clearly and easily makes him a more valuable defender than Jordan was ever capable of being.

Of course this won’t go over your head in favor of the idea that Jordan’s raw steal numbers equate to great defense.

[RRR3]

LeBron being equivalent to Gobert as a rim protector is an absurd statement.

[999Guy]

LeBron being equivalent to Gobert as a rim protector is an absurd statement.

Yes, good thing that was never said in this thread at all.

[dankok8]

Again, I’m sure your great opinion is founded by something more logical than nicknames and media awards.

Defense is mostly judged based on film. I've watched so so much footage of both Jordan and Lebron that I feel comfortable forming an opinion about their defense. I could probably write a 5000-word essay describing their defensive tendencies actually.

Why would I completely dismiss media opinions of contemporaries who watched the games, in fact more games than anyone on this board? Are All-Defensive selections generally the best defenders in the league at their positions? Yes. The media can get the occasional selection wrong but generally they are right. Only a fool would dismiss 9 All-Defensive 1st Teams and a DPOY.

[sdot_thadon]

If your argument is that the best player of the current or recent generation will be the most common choice for GOAT among the general public, of course I agree! But then what's the point of debating. If Kareem is automatically over Russell, MJ is automatically over Kareem, and Lebron is automatically over MJ then why bother calling Lebron the GOAT when we know that some new kid will be the GOAT in a decade? Kind of defeats the purpose and seems ridiculous.

That's why the GOAT should be the player who is the best relative to their own era. Every other way just makes no sense to me.
I'm just informing or maybe reminding you of how your 90% Mj comment is just history repeating itself and likely won't bear out over time.
And yeah once the majority consider Lebron goat eventually another talented kid will come along shooting pull ups from half court someday. And we'll resume the same arguments with different names. So yeah, pretty ridiculous to ever think these things are concrete.


To be fair Kareem has 17 years as an MVP candidate from his rookie year to 1970 to 1986. Lebron is now in his 17th year as an MVP candidate (he wasn't his rookie year).

I actually agree with 3ball who I almost never agree with on anything because he's very extreme in his views... but I agree that playing at a lower level longer can never beat someone playing at a higher level. Longevity is a tie-breaker for equal players. I don't see Lebron passing MJ/Kareem with longevity alone because prime Lebron not equal to them in their primes. With leading his teams to rings yes that can work... because rings are tied to dominance. If Lebron gets 7 FMVP's I'll put him over MJ and Kareem. Russell though has to be GOAT in a way no matter what.
I somewhat agree about Kareem, only somewhat because he wasn't the player in year 17 Lebron is right now. And anytime you find yourself agreeing with 3ball it may be time to take a step back and reassess things...

You guys downplaying the longevity aspect aren't being very realistic at all. You say it doesn't matter because Mj had a better peak. Well here's the issue if you believe Mj had a better peak, which under deep analysis isn't even clear-cut, it's not a huge gulf. It's a close debate not nick Young vs. MJ, Lebron freaking James.:lol And if you come to the conclusion he has a better peak I'm not bothered by that but Lebrons peak is in the discussion with the greatest peaks ever. So by having a goat level peak and lapping Mj in longevity...well that's basis for a goat argument. Because what's happening here is inverted. Lebron has a comparable peak rather than a clearly inferior one, And Mj has clearly inferior longevity. Break the details down and you have an argument that goes either way.

One last thing on Lebron's "oh he's just playing more years" longevity narrative. Medicine is a good explanation but then why is he the only one from his draft class or beyond better yet? Where are all the other stars from this era that have benefited from modern medicine and training to be so great this late into a career Lebron's? Lebron's not just an mvp candidate in year 18, he's fresh off a finals mvp and still in discussion for best player in the world. Current best player in the world, let that sink in.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm just informing or maybe reminding you of how your 90% Mj comment is just history repeating itself and likely won't bear out over time.
And yeah once the majority consider Lebron goat eventually another talented kid will come along shooting pull ups from half court someday. And we'll resume the same arguments with different names. So yeah, pretty ridiculous to ever think these things are concrete.


I somewhat agree about Kareem, only somewhat because he wasn't the player in year 17 Lebron is right now. And anytime you find yourself agreeing with 3ball it may be time to take a step back and reassess things...

You guys downplaying the longevity aspect aren't being very realistic at all. You say it doesn't matter because Mj had a better peak. Well here's the issue if you believe Mj had a better peak, which under deep analysis isn't even clear-cut, it's not a huge gulf. It's a close debate not nick Young vs. MJ, Lebron freaking James.:lol And if you come to the conclusion he has a better peak I'm not bothered by that but Lebrons peak is in the discussion with the greatest peaks ever. So by having a goat level peak and lapping Mj in longevity...well that's basis for a goat argument. Because what's happening here is inverted. Lebron has a comparable peak rather than a clearly inferior one, And Mj has clearly inferior longevity. Break the details down and you have an argument that goes either way.

One last thing on Lebron's "oh he's just playing more years" longevity narrative. Medicine is a good explanation but then why is he the only one from his draft class or beyond better yet? Where are all the other stars from this era that have benefited from modern medicine and training to be so great this late into a career Lebron's? Lebron's not just an mvp candidate in year 18, he's fresh off a finals mvp and still in discussion for best player in the world. Current best player in the world, let that sink in.

Astute observation there.

When I've seen that argument presented before, I would fall back to the "soft era" line too. Thinking that today's players all benefit. While that is partially true, like you said Bron is the ONLY guy from his class STILL balling. The only dude whose even close to a superstar, let alone MVP and best player.

People need to appreciate what they're watching. Not to sound corny, but ya, its historic.

[BigShotBob]

I'm just informing or maybe reminding you of how your 90% Mj comment is just history repeating itself and likely won't bear out over time.
And yeah once the majority consider Lebron goat eventually another talented kid will come along shooting pull ups from half court someday. And we'll resume the same arguments with different names. So yeah, pretty ridiculous to ever think these things are concrete.


I somewhat agree about Kareem, only somewhat because he wasn't the player in year 17 Lebron is right now. And anytime you find yourself agreeing with 3ball it may be time to take a step back and reassess things...

You guys downplaying the longevity aspect aren't being very realistic at all. You say it doesn't matter because Mj had a better peak. Well here's the issue if you believe Mj had a better peak, which under deep analysis isn't even clear-cut, it's not a huge gulf. It's a close debate not nick Young vs. MJ, Lebron freaking James.:lol And if you come to the conclusion he has a better peak I'm not bothered by that but Lebrons peak is in the discussion with the greatest peaks ever. So by having a goat level peak and lapping Mj in longevity...well that's basis for a goat argument. Because what's happening here is inverted. Lebron has a comparable peak rather than a clearly inferior one, And Mj has clearly inferior longevity. Break the details down and you have an argument that goes either way.

One last thing on Lebron's "oh he's just playing more years" longevity narrative. Medicine is a good explanation but then why is he the only one from his draft class or beyond better yet? Where are all the other stars from this era that have benefited from modern medicine and training to be so great this late into a career Lebron's? Lebron's not just an mvp candidate in year 18, he's fresh off a finals mvp and still in discussion for best player in the world. Current best player in the world, let that sink in.

Longevity isn't an argument unless the person is actually winning something. In essence this proves MJ was better because he accomplished more in a less amount of time, which is why longevity can be a double-edged sword. Lebron has played almost 300 more games than MJ, yet he has less defensive teams, no DPOY awards, less MVPs, less Finals MVPs, less scoring titles, less championships, less steals, about the same amount of offensive rebounds.....

I think you see where I'm going with this. Lebron has to play longer to CATCH UP to MJ, which is a problem within itself.

[Axe]

Longevity isn't an argument unless the person is actually winning something. In essence this proves MJ was better because he accomplished more in a less amount of time, which is why longevity can be a double-edged sword. Lebron has played almost 300 more games than MJ, yet he has less defensive teams, no DPOY awards, less MVPs, less Finals MVPs, less scoring titles, less championships, less steals, about the same amount of offensive rebounds.....

I think you see where I'm going with this. Lebron has to play longer to CATCH UP to MJ, which is a problem within itself.
Are you trying to say that mj had help during his dominance in the 90s?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Longevity isn't an argument unless the person is actually winning something. In essence this proves MJ was better because he accomplished more in a less amount of time, which is why longevity can be a double-edged sword. Lebron has played almost 300 more games than MJ, yet he has less defensive teams, no DPOY awards, less MVPs, less Finals MVPs, less scoring titles, less championships, less steals, about the same amount of offensive rebounds.....

I think you see where I'm going with this. Lebron has to play longer to CATCH UP to MJ, which is a problem within itself.

Few of those are media based though. Some of the others are team achievements.

Bron at 35 was as good if not better than Jordan at 35. That is backed by the overall numbers, impact data and results (championship/FMVP).

Now he's 36 and, well, Mike was dunzo by then.

[light]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/4b/09/4c4b093cba649d05ab0a267470cf3b20.jpg

[hateraid]

Few of those are media based though. Some of the others are team achievements.

Bron at 35 was as good if not better than Jordan at 35. That is backed by the overall numbers, impact data and results (championship/FMVP).

Now he's 36 and, well, Mike was dunzo by then.

When did you change teams?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

When did you change teams?

Haha

Mike is still the greater player, and had the better peak imo. Don't know if you read my posts recently, but I've been on record saying I don't think Bron has to pass Jordan in titles to be considered greater. Another elite playoff run with a ring/fmvp will get him plenty of mainstream GOAT talk.

When the dust has settled, Bron will probably have the Brady argument going for him. The people who don't think longevity matters are in for a rude awakening.

[hateraid]

Haha

Mike is still the greater player, and had the better peak imo. Don't know if you read my posts recently, but I've been on record saying I don't think Bron has to pass Jordan in titles to be considered greater. Another elite playoff run with a ring/fmvp will get him plenty of mainstream GOAT talk.

When the dust has settled, Bron will probably have the Brady argument going for him. The people who don't think longevity matters are in for a rude awakening.

Ahh, so you've become more objective
Better look on you :cheers:
Welcome to the world I reside in

[sdot_thadon]

Astute observation there.

When I've seen that argument presented before, I would fall back to the "soft era" line too. Thinking that today's players all benefit. While that is partially true, like you said Bron is the ONLY guy from his class STILL balling. The only dude whose even close to a superstar, let alone MVP and best player.

People need to appreciate what they're watching. Not to sound corny, but ya, its historic.

Nailed it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ahh, so you've become more objective
Better look on you :cheers:
Welcome to the world I reside in

Nah your boy just added to his resume.

Now every debate you and other MJ fans have, your side has ground to stand :lol

Who makes up your Top 5 btw? I know it was either your or Roundball who had Kareem GOAT, but I get you 2 confused.

[sdot_thadon]

Longevity isn't an argument unless the person is actually winning something. In essence this proves MJ was better because he accomplished more in a less amount of time, which is why longevity can be a double-edged sword. Lebron has played almost 300 more games than MJ, yet he has less defensive teams, no DPOY awards, less MVPs, less Finals MVPs, less scoring titles, less championships, less steals, about the same amount of offensive rebounds.....

I think you see where I'm going with this. Lebron has to play longer to CATCH UP to MJ, which is a problem within itself.

So now the goalposts move right? Longevity is longevity, winning has its own category if I'm not mistaken. Some people prefer more over a longer period of time when attemtping to determine career value. The whole bit of having more or less of blank stat in x amount of time? I'd think that's a function of play style differences. The guy who scores more accumulates more points in less games and the guy who passes more does the same, but what do i know. Accolades are what they are and should raise their own set of questions to anyone attempting to be objective.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm just informing or maybe reminding you of how your 90% Mj comment is just history repeating itself and likely won't bear out over time.
And yeah once the majority consider Lebron goat eventually another talented kid will come along shooting pull ups from half court someday. And we'll resume the same arguments with different names. So yeah, pretty ridiculous to ever think these things are concrete.


I somewhat agree about Kareem, only somewhat because he wasn't the player in year 17 Lebron is right now. And anytime you find yourself agreeing with 3ball it may be time to take a step back and reassess things...

You guys downplaying the longevity aspect aren't being very realistic at all. You say it doesn't matter because Mj had a better peak. Well here's the issue if you believe Mj had a better peak, which under deep analysis isn't even clear-cut, it's not a huge gulf. It's a close debate not nick Young vs. MJ, Lebron freaking James.:lol And if you come to the conclusion he has a better peak I'm not bothered by that but Lebrons peak is in the discussion with the greatest peaks ever. So by having a goat level peak and lapping Mj in longevity...well that's basis for a goat argument. Because what's happening here is inverted. Lebron has a comparable peak rather than a clearly inferior one, And Mj has clearly inferior longevity. Break the details down and you have an argument that goes either way.

One last thing on Lebron's "oh he's just playing more years" longevity narrative. Medicine is a good explanation but then why is he the only one from his draft class or beyond better yet? Where are all the other stars from this era that have benefited from modern medicine and training to be so great this late into a career Lebron's? Lebron's not just an mvp candidate in year 18, he's fresh off a finals mvp and still in discussion for best player in the world. Current best player in the world, let that sink in.
Great post :applause: People try to downplay the longevity when like you said, LeBron had a top 3, at worst top 5 peak of all time. Then you factor in his individual accolades, which are only surpassed by Jordan, then barring injury you add on something like TWENTY All-NBA Teams, in addition to owning the record book, yeah, the guy is gonna be getting GOAT consideration

[BigShotBob]

So now the goalposts move right? Longevity is longevity, winning has its own category if I'm not mistaken. Some people prefer more over a longer period of time when attemtping to determine career value. The whole bit of having more or less of blank stat in x amount of time? I'd think that's a function of play style differences. The guy who scores more accumulates more points in less games and the guy who passes more does the same, but what do i know. Accolades are what they are and should raise their own set of questions to anyone attempting to be objective.

The comical nature of your argument comes in is that if Lebron had the aforementioned accolades ahead of MJ then it wouldn't be in discussion. But because he doesn't, you want to pivot and downplay it when it suits you. Just call a spade a spade.

On NBA.com it says that by acclimation, Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time. If Lebron cannot surpass him in accolades and he's approaching year 19 and 20, then it starts to work against him.

[hateraid]

Nah your boy just added to his resume.

Now every debate you and other MJ fans have, your side has ground to stand :lol

Who makes up your Top 5 btw? I know it was either your or Roundball who had Kareem GOAT, but I get you 2 confused.

Magic for the longest time. But I can be objective and switch out a handful. Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Kareem...
My opinion is hugely weighted by eye test and impact. But I can't defer to just one as every player has a unique trait

[sdot_thadon]

The comical nature of your argument comes in is that if Lebron had the aforementioned accolades ahead of MJ then it wouldn't be in discussion. But because he doesn't, you want to pivot and downplay it when it suits you. Just call a spade a spade.

On NBA.com it says that by acclimation, Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time. If Lebron cannot surpass him in accolades and he's approaching year 19 and 20, then it starts to work against him.

Actually that's incorrect, I'm a fan of both so whichever one comes out on top won't bother me in the least. I've been entertained for 30 years by the both of them, I'm appreciative if anything. The only reason I even entertain these conversations is because as I became a fan of Lebron I saw the clear double standard applied and I'm not a fan of it. Oh and I'm not of the mind that goat is a concrete set in stone affair, nor do a have a goat at the moment. The 3 guys with the best cases imo could all be the goat given slightly different perspectives.

[dankok8]

I'm just informing or maybe reminding you of how your 90% Mj comment is just history repeating itself and likely won't bear out over time.
And yeah once the majority consider Lebron goat eventually another talented kid will come along shooting pull ups from half court someday. And we'll resume the same arguments with different names. So yeah, pretty ridiculous to ever think these things are concrete.

Agreed. But a basketball forum should be about intellectual discussion where people go beyond narratives and "The new guy is always the GOAT." mentality.


I somewhat agree about Kareem, only somewhat because he wasn't the player in year 17 Lebron is right now. And anytime you find yourself agreeing with 3ball it may be time to take a step back and reassess things...

You guys downplaying the longevity aspect aren't being very realistic at all. You say it doesn't matter because Mj had a better peak. Well here's the issue if you believe Mj had a better peak, which under deep analysis isn't even clear-cut, it's not a huge gulf. It's a close debate not nick Young vs. MJ, Lebron freaking James.:lol And if you come to the conclusion he has a better peak I'm not bothered by that but Lebrons peak is in the discussion with the greatest peaks ever. So by having a goat level peak and lapping Mj in longevity...well that's basis for a goat argument. Because what's happening here is inverted. Lebron has a comparable peak rather than a clearly inferior one, And Mj has clearly inferior longevity. Break the details down and you have an argument that goes either way.

One last thing on Lebron's "oh he's just playing more years" longevity narrative. Medicine is a good explanation but then why is he the only one from his draft class or beyond better yet? Where are all the other stars from this era that have benefited from modern medicine and training to be so great this late into a career Lebron's? Lebron's not just an mvp candidate in year 18, he's fresh off a finals mvp and still in discussion for best player in the world. Current best player in the world, let that sink in.



Comparable peak? Like not a chasm ... ok it's not a chasm but MJ is very clearly a better player at his peak. Again stats show it... MJ at his peak is a 34/6/6 player and Lebron a 29/9/7 player. Efficiency is similar. Bot were elite defensively. MJ's numbers are noticeably better. 5 ppg is a huge gap... that 1 apg and a few defensive rebounds simply don't even close to making up. 5 ppg is a lot...

And it's not just raw stats. We see Jordan's IMPACT! MJ led obviously inferior offensive casts with Pippen as the 2nd option and Grant as the 3rd option and then in the second threepeat 2nd option Pippen and 3rd option Kukoc to GOAT-level offensive heights. Lebron with Wade and Bosh, then Love and Irving then Davis never led his team to such dominance offensively despite Lebron's casts being objectively better offensively than Jordan's casts.

[Micku]

Astute observation there.

When I've seen that argument presented before, I would fall back to the "soft era" line too. Thinking that today's players all benefit. While that is partially true, like you said Bron is the ONLY guy from his class STILL balling. The only dude whose even close to a superstar, let alone MVP and best player.

People need to appreciate what they're watching. Not to sound corny, but ya, its historic.

I remember Wade and Baron Davis was doing a interview together and they talked about LeBron spending a million dollars on his body. Wade comment that he isn't the only player to do that and implied he did it too. It's just LeBron is a freak of nature.

And he is. He's just a freak of nature athletic. The combination with his B-ball IQ, it's been a real pleasure to watch. Ppl who are hating are missing greatness. While it is true medicine, nutrition, and work out has been improved over time. And you could argue the rules became less physical, so players could also play for longer. But even with all that said, LeBron is still out performing his peers.

[sdot_thadon]

Agreed. But a basketball forum should be about intellectual discussion where people go beyond narratives and "The new guy is always the GOAT." mentality.
That's not what's happening here though, this isn't a case of "the new guy is the goat" this is a guy building a hell of a case and maybe you not agreeing....



Comparable peak? Like not a chasm ... ok it's not a chasm but MJ is very clearly a better player at his peak. Again stats show it... MJ at his peak is a 34/6/6 player and Lebron a 29/9/7 player. Efficiency is similar. Bot were elite defensively. MJ's numbers are noticeably better. 5 ppg is a huge gap... that 1 apg and a few defensive rebounds simply don't even close to making up. 5 ppg is a lot...

And it's not just raw stats. We see Jordan's IMPACT! MJ led obviously inferior offensive casts with Pippen as the 2nd option and Grant as the 3rd option and then in the second threepeat 2nd option Pippen and 3rd option Kukoc to GOAT-level offensive heights. Lebron with Wade and Bosh, then Love and Irving then Davis never led his team to such dominance offensively despite Lebron's casts being objectively better offensively than Jordan's casts.
How close their peaks are is a conversation totally dependent on how much effort you care to put into actual analysis honestly. 5 ppg is alot, before you consider how many more fga Mj likely took to get those 5 points. Or the fact that more of Lebron's assist led to 3s than Mjs due to era. Assists are in my opinion offense created in a similar ways points are. So depending on the way you see the game their offensive output is pretty much a stalemate. Different methods of getting the same results: points on the board.

The second you say impact in an effort to diminish Lebron you're already doing yourself a disservice. His impact is in the same tier as well. Whether you go by advanced metrics, career value, eye test, whatever your poison may be, he's right there in the picture. MJ's casts were inferior to who? Lebron's casts? Because they certainly weren't inferior to the casts of Mjs era, which ironically in a earlier post you said was all that mattered....how one lined up in their particular era.

[light]

LeBron has been elite since the 5th grade.

https://s2.gifyu.com/images/Screen-Shot-2021-02-18-at-1.10.30-AM.png

After 15 seasons Michael Jordan still had no idea how to see the floor as well as rookie LeBron James.

[light]

Here's another clue.

https://s2.gifyu.com/images/astonishing-ws.png

Topping the list is an achievement of its own but to do it by such a large margin is unfathomably well beyond wildest expectations.

Even if you don't trust the statistic you can still appreciate the amount of winning and contribution required to reach 55.27.

Note the absence of LeBron sidekicks.

[clipps]

OP is a retard.

[dankok8]

That's not what's happening here though, this isn't a case of "the new guy is the goat" this is a guy building a hell of a case and maybe you not agreeing....


How close their peaks are is a conversation totally dependent on how much effort you care to put into actual analysis honestly. 5 ppg is alot, before you consider how many more fga Mj likely took to get those 5 points. Or the fact that more of Lebron's assist led to 3s than Mjs due to era. Assists are in my opinion offense created in a similar ways points are. So depending on the way you see the game their offensive output is pretty much a stalemate. Different methods of getting the same results: points on the board.

The second you say impact in an effort to diminish Lebron you're already doing yourself a disservice. His impact is in the same tier as well. Whether you go by advanced metrics, career value, eye test, whatever your poison may be, he's right there in the picture. MJ's casts were inferior to who? Lebron's casts? Because they certainly weren't inferior to the casts of Mjs era, which ironically in a earlier post you said was all that mattered....how one lined up in their particular era.

What do you mean consider FGA? Jordan scored on very high efficiency in which case it's better to shoot more. At close to 60 %TS the more shots you take and make the better off your team is. 1 apg edge for Lebron doesn't make up for 5 extra ppg. It's not a stalemate. Jordan clearly produced more on offense.

Jordan's offensive casts weren't amazing relative to his era. If we take offense alone... Pippen wasn't a top 10 offensive player in the NBA and other guys like Grant/Kukoc etc don't even appear on the radar. And yet MJ still led them a GOAT-level offense in several years. Four Bulls teams: 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1997 are all offenses in the top 20 all-time in ORtg IIRC which is just insane. Up until 2015 before NBA offenses exploded, all four of those Bulls teams were top 12 all time. Lebron didn't lead a single team that is top 20 all-time ORtg. His 2017 Cavs are the best and they are #37. MJ's offensive impact was much higher than Lebron's. At this point it's not my opinion. Facts say so.

[Micku]

The second you say impact in an effort to diminish Lebron you're already doing yourself a disservice. His impact is in the same tier as well. Whether you go by advanced metrics, career value, eye test, whatever your poison may be, he's right there in the picture. MJ's casts were inferior to who? Lebron's casts? Because they certainly weren't inferior to the casts of Mjs era, which ironically in a earlier post you said was all that mattered....how one lined up in their particular era.

I agree with him in saying that LeBron when he went to Miami and the Cavs the second time that the teams were never the best offensively despite having one of the best, if not the best offensive talents in his era. Although, that's not entirely true in 2013? I mean, the difference between the Thunder that year and Miami were small in the regular season. I don't think a LeBron lead team has ever been the best offensive team. But I also agree with you that LeBron had similar impact of a MJ relative to the teams. The stats also show it.

It is a moot point tho since they always perform in the playoffs. And to win a championship, that's pretty much all most ppl care about at the end of the day. So, this is pretty much nitpicking.

As to why they never perform the best of their abilities in the regular season, imo, it's 3 things.

1. Coaches never maximum the potential
2. LeBron lacked the offensive versatility to max out the talent of the teammates (stars players) I feel for a little while.
3. The fit~This is the most important one.

Especially in the early Miami days. More details is that Wade couldn't do it either. They both changed their game, the best they could. But imo, in 2013, LeBron's game was the most complete with his game. He had off the ball movement, midrange, 3pt shot, and etc. And it's no coincidence imo that this was the year they performed the best in RS throughout the Miami years. And they were the second best in the league and just barely under the Thunder. But they never fit well together like Curry and KD. And they both played off the ball very well compared to Wade and LeBron. They Cavs and the Lakers, they fit better. But the Cavs had drama. But I'm just talking about regular season. Playoffs is something else.

In comparison, some MJ teams were the best offensively in the league several times. It's not that his cast were better offensively than his peers. They didn't have more offensive talent than Portland, Cavs, Lakers, Warriors and Suns in the early 90s. But they had 2 things going for them that was the opposite of Lebron teams.

1. Better coaching
2. MJ had offensive versatility.
3. The fit, also the most important.

MJ was really versatile. He could play off the ball, catch and shoot, play the point, play the post, and iso. Etc, etc. He has a way to attack without breaking the offense. But it allowed his other teammates to have the ball. Plus his gravity was huge too. Not to say LeBron isn't huge tho. But with LeBron, they force him to shoot. When he attacks in the post or drive, they double. With MJ, since he has more of a shooting touch, they would double more on the floor whenever he has the ball. But he was so quick with attacking, so it was hard. But say what you will about Krause, he created a team that fit so well with MJ. Either by accident or just genius at the time. And the Bulls drafted very well.

And I'm not saying you have to play like MJ to achieve the best offense in the league. Obviously that's not true. You could play like LeBron and achieve it. James Harden did it and he is no way better than LeBron. He also have the ball in his hands more so than LeBron James even with stars on his team. That's why I think the fit is the most important. Even though LeBron James had stars on his teams, they never fit well. Similar to the Lakers getting Howard and Nash on the team, but they sucked even though they had talent. Melo/Westbrook/PG sucked. 2004 Lakers had a lot of drama at the time, but Gary Payton certainly didn't fit well in the triangle. AI and Carmelo on the Nuggets didn't live it up. AI and Webber. Etc, etc. It wasn't like these players were bad, but they weren't good fits to make the best of the team.

Like I said, this in general is a moot point and nitpicking. But I believe that everyone would agree that some of LeBron teams unperformed and didn't live up to their potential. A lot of it isn't his fault. Due to injuries or his coach just got out coached. Some he is cuz of him. But also some of them overachieved too, mostly because of him. He was just that much of a beast and prove countless of times he could carry a team. It's a big up and down thing. But LeBron, perhaps after 2012, he just became so good and confident that he'll make almost any team a contender.

MJ never had up and down thing like that.

[sdot_thadon]

What do you mean consider FGA? Jordan scored on very high efficiency in which case it's better to shoot more. At close to 60 %TS the more shots you take and make the better off your team is. 1 apg edge for Lebron doesn't make up for 5 extra ppg. It's not a stalemate. Jordan clearly produced more on offense.
Who said it was worse for him to shoot more, they play different games and I said as much in the post you're replying to. Lebron swapped some of those attempts for assists, both yield points on the board for their team don't they? And again you cite a 1 assist edge without consideration for how many of Lebron's assists result in made 3s, thus more points on the board. As I said before the amount of effort you're willing to put into the analysis matters.



Jordan's offensive casts weren't amazing relative to his era. If we take offense alone... Pippen wasn't a top 10 offensive player in the NBA and other guys like Grant/Kukoc etc don't even appear on the radar. And yet MJ still led them a GOAT-level offense in several years. Four Bulls teams: 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1997 are all offenses in the top 20 all-time in ORtg IIRC which is just insane. Up until 2015 before NBA offenses exploded, all four of those Bulls teams were top 12 all time. Lebron didn't lead a single team that is top 20 all-time ORtg. His 2017 Cavs are the best and they are #37. MJ's offensive impact was much higher than Lebron's. At this point it's not my opinion. Facts say so.
I agree Lebron has not led a goat level offense. Some of that is a function of personnel and some of it coaching etc. I still don't get why people can't resist shitting on Mjs casts. The 1st 3peat Bulls were easily the best team in the league. Had good coaching and role players. Even a couple of guys who made an allstar team once Mj was on hiatus. The Bulls weren't just a one way team Mj had good help on both sides of the ball. Pippen made all nba teams through most of the title runs so I don't get what you're saying here. Kukoc was 6th man of the year. I don't understand how you can make these statements with a straight face. The bulls were a great team all around.

[sdot_thadon]

I agree with him in saying that LeBron when he went to Miami and the Cavs the second time that the teams were never the best offensively despite having one of the best, if not the best offensive talents in his era. Although, that's not entirely true in 2013? I mean, the difference between the Thunder that year and Miami were small in the regular season. I don't think a LeBron lead team has ever been the best offensive team. But I also agree with you that LeBron had similar impact of a MJ relative to the teams. The stats also show it.

It is a moot point tho since they always perform in the playoffs. And to win a championship, that's pretty much all most ppl care about at the end of the day. So, this is pretty much nitpicking.

As to why they never perform the best of their abilities in the regular season, imo, it's 3 things.

1. Coaches never maximum the potential
2. LeBron lacked the offensive versatility to max out the talent of the teammates (stars players) I feel for a little while.
3. The fit~This is the most important one.

Especially in the early Miami days. More details is that Wade couldn't do it either. They both changed their game, the best they could. But imo, in 2013, LeBron's game was the most complete with his game. He had off the ball movement, midrange, 3pt shot, and etc. And it's no coincidence imo that this was the year they performed the best in RS throughout the Miami years. And they were the second best in the league and just barely under the Thunder. But they never fit well together like Curry and KD. And they both played off the ball very well compared to Wade and LeBron. They Cavs and the Lakers, they fit better. But the Cavs had drama. But I'm just talking about regular season. Playoffs is something else.

In comparison, some MJ teams were the best offensively in the league several times. It's not that his cast were better offensively than his peers. They didn't have more offensive talent than Portland, Cavs, Lakers, Warriors and Suns in the early 90s. But they had 2 things going for them that was the opposite of Lebron teams.

1. Better coaching
2. MJ had offensive versatility.
3. The fit, also the most important.

MJ was really versatile. He could play off the ball, catch and shoot, play the point, play the post, and iso. Etc, etc. He has a way to attack without breaking the offense. But it allowed his other teammates to have the ball. Plus his gravity was huge too. Not to say LeBron isn't huge tho. But with LeBron, they force him to shoot. When he attacks in the post or drive, they double. With MJ, since he has more of a shooting touch, they would double more on the floor whenever he has the ball. But he was so quick with attacking, so it was hard. But say what you will about Krause, he created a team that fit so well with MJ. Either by accident or just genius at the time. And the Bulls drafted very well.

And I'm not saying you have to play like MJ to achieve the best offense in the league. Obviously that's not true. You could play like LeBron and achieve it. James Harden did it and he is no way better than LeBron. He also have the ball in his hands more so than LeBron James even with stars on his team. That's why I think the fit is the most important. Even though LeBron James had stars on his teams, they never fit well. Similar to the Lakers getting Howard and Nash on the team, but they sucked even though they had talent. Melo/Westbrook/PG sucked. 2004 Lakers had a lot of drama at the time, but Gary Payton certainly didn't fit well in the triangle. AI and Carmelo on the Nuggets didn't live it up. AI and Webber. Etc, etc. It wasn't like these players were bad, but they weren't good fits to make the best of the team.

Like I said, this in general is a moot point and nitpicking. But I believe that everyone would agree that some of LeBron teams unperformed and didn't live up to their potential. A lot of it isn't his fault. Due to injuries or his coach just got out coached. Some he is cuz of him. But also some of them overachieved too, mostly because of him. He was just that much of a beast and prove countless of times he could carry a team. It's a big up and down thing. But LeBron, perhaps after 2012, he just became so good and confident that he'll make almost any team a contender.

MJ never had up and down thing like that.

Great post. And I don't disagree with anything you said there. I'll say one thing that Lebron hasn't had consistently in his runs: luck. As far as injuries or teammates cratering at inopportune times, he's had some bad ones, and that's not even looking at his own failures. He's had 2nd and 3rd options hobbled mid run in the playoffs several times now. 2 good years of Dwade, 2 shell years. Hughes hobbled mid finals run, Bosh hobbled in 2012, Dwade every year after. Kyrie and love in 2015, etc. But that's just speaking on playoff runs, in the regular season your guess is as good as mine. I did notice somewhere in the midway point of his career there was a conscious shift to saving him for the playoffs rather than letting the candle burn in the regular season. Also there's the elephant in the room of almost all of his teams being either so dependent on him or so much better with him on the floor that there's a huge drop off in those minutes he sits. Those minutes are what kept his teams from being all time great offenses, the plus and minus numbers have proved it for years. That's partially a coaching issue as you stated. As he's gotten older and his on off numbers are less outrageous than his prime so we don't see such drastic differences as often.

[999Guy]

Defense is mostly judged based on film. I've watched so so much footage of both Jordan and Lebron that I feel comfortable forming an opinion about their defense. I could probably write a 5000-word essay describing their defensive tendencies actually.

Why would I completely dismiss media opinions of contemporaries who watched the games, in fact more games than anyone on this board? Are All-Defensive selections generally the best defenders in the league at their positions? Yes. The media can get the occasional selection wrong but generally they are right. Only a fool would dismiss 9 All-Defensive 1st Teams and a DPOY.

Well sir, you just said LeBron had zero rim protection abilities. Lol. I highly doubt you have the ability to perceive game film well enough to own any opinion I don’t feel is stupid in my gut immediately upon seeing it.

Your opinions should come with 86 rolls of toilet paper and a fiber rich meal.

Your posts sickens me to me colon how dumb and arrogant they are in combination.

[999Guy]

And just for the record, LeBron teams do own the top playoff ORTG’s ever from 2015 to 2018.

For guys who essentially only care about micro fractions of the NBA season(second round to finals), that’s hella overlooked in this thread.

[dankok8]

Who said it was worse for him to shoot more, they play different games and I said as much in the post you're replying to. Lebron swapped some of those attempts for assists, both yield points on the board for their team don't they? And again you cite a 1 assist edge without consideration for how many of Lebron's assists result in made 3s, thus more points on the board. As I said before the amount of effort you're willing to put into the analysis matters.


I agree Lebron has not led a goat level offense. Some of that is a function of personnel and some of it coaching etc. I still don't get why people can't resist shitting on Mjs casts. The 1st 3peat Bulls were easily the best team in the league. Had good coaching and role players. Even a couple of guys who made an allstar team once Mj was on hiatus. The Bulls weren't just a one way team Mj had good help on both sides of the ball. Pippen made all nba teams through most of the title runs so I don't get what you're saying here. Kukoc was 6th man of the year. I don't understand how you can make these statements with a straight face. The bulls were a great team all around.

I think the way you're thinking about assists is very wrong. An assist is a pass leading to a made shot by someone else. An assist is a pass. You're valuing a pass to a shooter who makes a basket equally to actually making a basket... Think about that. Most assists are simple passes. That's why someone like Stockton who actually wasn't a super special passing talent (relatively speaking... there are at least 10 passers in NBA history more talented and Lebron is one of them) averaged 15 apg by running PnR with Karl Malone over and over and over again. That's not to say that Lebron is not a talented passer because this is one area he's better than MJ but there is no way an average assist is worth close to 2 points let alone 3 points.

Dean Oliver who is pretty much a basketball scientist and came up with a lot of advanced metrics estimated that an average assist is worth somewhere between 0.5 for a 2pt shot and 0.75 points for a 3pt shot. See the link here: http://blogs.section2basketball.com/fromthestands/2018/08/08/how-many-points-is-an-assist-worth/

In a best case scenario Lebron from his assists contributed about 1 additional point to his team compared to Jordan. That pales in comparison to 5 ppg extra that MJ scores over Lebron. There is absolutely no argument for Lebron being on MJ's level offensively.

Who is shitting on MJ's casts? They were a great team. I'm simply pointing out that looking at those Bulls' rosters doesn't scream offensive juggernaut. At least not the way teams like Big 3 Heatles with Ray Allen do. And yet Jordan led those Bulls to much better offenses. In fact he led them to GOAT-level offenses.

[sdot_thadon]

I think the way you're thinking about assists is very wrong. An assist is a pass leading to a made shot by someone else. An assist is a pass. You're valuing a pass to a shooter who makes a basket equally to actually making a basket... Think about that. Most assists are simple passes. That's why someone like Stockton who actually wasn't a super special passing talent (relatively speaking... there are at least 10 passers in NBA history more talented and Lebron is one of them) averaged 15 apg by running PnR with Karl Malone over and over and over again. That's not to say that Lebron is not a talented passer because this is one area he's better than MJ but there is no way an average assist is worth close to 2 points let alone 3 points.

Dean Oliver who is pretty much a basketball scientist and came up with a lot of advanced metrics estimated that an average assist is worth somewhere between 0.5 for a 2pt shot and 0.75 points for a 3pt shot. See the link here: http://blogs.section2basketball.com/fromthestands/2018/08/08/how-many-points-is-an-assist-worth/

In a best case scenario Lebron from his assists contributed about 1 additional point to his team compared to Jordan. That pales in comparison to 5 ppg extra that MJ scores over Lebron. There is absolutely no argument for Lebron being on MJ's level offensively.

Who is shitting on MJ's casts? They were a great team. I'm simply pointing out that looking at those Bulls' rosters doesn't scream offensive juggernaut. At least not the way teams like Big 3 Heatles with Ray Allen do. And yet Jordan led those Bulls to much better offenses. In fact he led them to GOAT-level offenses.

If this is your outlook on assists then you can never value a player like Lebron in an objective way anyhow. I'm sort of confused here because when I watch basketball and a guy kicks out to a 3pt shooter who in turn makes the shot, the team gets awarded 3 points if my rudimentary math is correct. All that really proves is you have a narrow view of the game. I mean it's basically the same concept if one was to say well all the points Mj scored where he worked off ball to receive a pass for an easy bucket somehow count less. That's ridiculous. I thought basketball only in terms of scoring as a 13 year old....

Oh and refer to the post above yours about Lebron leading the goat offenses in the playoffs. Lemme guess, those don't count for some reason or another.

[dankok8]

If this is your outlook on assists then you can never value a player like Lebron in an objective way anyhow. I'm sort of confused here because when I watch basketball and a guy kicks out to a 3pt shooter who in turn makes the shot, the team gets awarded 3 points if my rudimentary math is correct. All that really proves is you have a narrow view of the game. I mean it's basically the same concept if one was to say well all the points Mj scored where he worked off ball to receive a pass for an easy bucket somehow count less. That's ridiculous. I thought basketball only in terms of scoring as a 13 year old....

Oh and refer to the post above yours about Lebron leading the goat offenses in the playoffs. Lemme guess, those don't count for some reason or another.

Yes the team gets 3 points but most of that credit goes to the shooter who makes the shot. On some shots the pass is worth more on some less and it's hard to quantify ideally but the link I sent analyzes this. An assist leads to 2 or 3 points but a pass that makes the assist is not worth 2 or 3 points. In fact nowhere near that because most passes are basic. Even unassisted field goals where a player goes iso can often be successful, just at a lower rate than assisted field goals. I really urge you to read the link. Your way of looking at passing is very flawed if you look at point contributions from assists. To assess the value of an assist you need to understand how much the pass that led to an assist increased the team's chances of scoring. That's a very complex question but the value of an average assist can be narrowed down quite well. Several NBA analysts including the famous Dean Oliver came at about 0.5 to 0.7 points per assist. Again that's not just my opinion. That's what rigorous analysis shows. Look at how Advanced Stats like PER, BPM etc. treat assists as well.

The bottom line is that a player who scores gets the lion's share of the credit and the player that assists gets a smaller fraction.

GOAT offenses in the playoffs are harder to contextualize because competition and style of play can have a huge effect. Sample sizes are very small as well. The two playoff runs of GOAT-level offense which the 2016 and 2017 Cavs achieved is still around 40 games or about half a season's worth of data. And only against a subset of league opponents. Lebron's teams also allowed their opponents the three highest ORtg's in league history in the 2014, 2017 and 2018 Finals. So that proverbial sword cuts two ways.