Happy 58th birthday, GOAT :)

[Kiddlovesnets]

The GOAT of basketball just turned 58 years old. We all know that hes the undisputed GOAT of this sport, and NBA would not be where it is now without him. Happy birthday MJ, the one and only GOAT.

:cheers:

https://pasteboard.co/JONoWae.png

[3ball]

58 points against New Jersey in 1987 (goat offense at the 9:25 mark):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aKvOoqq2yoc&t=0m53s

[dbugz]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m90qtjujHz1rnt56ho1_400.gif

G O A T

[Kiddlovesnets]

-- From Wade's instagram

Happy Birthday to my GOAT MJ23! Thank you for inspiring me. Iam forever grateful! @jumpman23

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLZ4LMAn2k3/

[Gudo]

-- From Wade's instagram

Happy Birthday to my GOAT MJ23! Thank you for inspiring me. Iam forever grateful! @jumpman23

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLZ4LMAn2k3/

Surprised wade said that

[Kiddlovesnets]

Surprised wade said that

Not surprising at all, MJ was always Wade's idol and Wade is a very rational guy. He may be Lebron's best friend but he knows the truth is that MJ is miles ahead on all time ranking, theres just no contest.

[Axe]

Surprised wade said that
True players know how to respect other players

[DoctorP]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/bd/ac/47bdac38edc1281e377020db67b7d945.gif

[TheGoatest]

He needed Pippen to blow more than .500 of the 58 candles.

[Gudo]

True players know how to respect other players

Given how media can easily manipulate something like this and make an issue out of it agoanst Lebron, I would think players would tend to be more political with what they say or post. Then again, its always good to see players respecting each other.

[Kiddlovesnets]

He needed Pippen to blow more than .500 of the 58 candles.

6/6 > 4/10, its simple mathematics.

[TheGoatest]

6/6 > 4/10, its simple mathematics.

14-14 > 10-13
10-17 > 6-15
3-3 > 1-2

[Kiddlovesnets]

14-14 > 10-13
10-17 > 6-15
3-3 > 1-2

We compare the ceilings to ceilings, floors to floors. When it comes to ceilings, MJ's 6/6 > Lebron's 4/10. When it comes to floors, MJ's 3 first round exits > Lebron's 3 missed playoffs. You know this is not even a contest when a player has higher ceiling and floor than the other.

[Airupthere]

We compare the ceilings to ceilings, floors to floors. When it comes to ceilings, MJ's 6/6 > Lebron's 4/10. When it comes to floors, MJ's 3 first round exits > Lebron's 3 missed playoffs. You know this is not even a contest when a player has higher ceiling and floor than the other.

:lebronamazed:

:hammertime::hammertime::hammertime:

[TheGoatest]

We compare the ceilings to ceilings, floors to floors.

Except MJ facing a bunch of teams who couldn't beat Hakeem + a bunch of role players = This ceiling:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5066/5643177547_d6bb1c9b62_z.jpg

Meanwhile LeGOAT facing the 2012 Thunder, 2013 Spurs and 2016 Warriors = This ceiling:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/ae/b0/23aeb03b65be3ab008a7fec7d7707f28.jpg

[Airupthere]

-- From Wade's instagram

Happy Birthday to my GOAT MJ23! Thank you for inspiring me. Iam forever grateful! @jumpman23

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLZ4LMAn2k3/

Given how Wade has seen firsthand what Lebron brings to the table for many years, he still knows who the GOAT is. That is huge coming from someone who directly played with Lebron. He probably was not that much impressed.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Meanwhile LeGOAT facing the 2012 Thunder, 2013 Spurs and 2016 Warriors = This ceiling:

Lebron's teams were favorite to win the title from 2011-2016. So nope these three rings aint underdog rings, these were what he was supposed and expected to win and they are not worth more than anyone else's rings. In fact, Lebron went 3/6 as pre-season title favorite from 2011-2016, while MJ was 5/5 as pre-season title favorite from 1992-1993 and 1996-1998.
:facepalm

Reference:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_preseason_odds.html

[TheGoatest]

Lebron's teams were favorite to win the title from 2011-2016. So nope these three rings aint underdog rings, these were what he was supposed and expected to win and they are not worth more than anyone else's rings. In fact, Lebron went 3/6 as pre-season title favorite from 2011-2016, while MJ was 5/5 as pre-season title favorite from 1992-1993 and 1996-1998.
:facepalm

Reference:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_preseason_odds.html

https://images2.imagebam.com/ec/03/16/d17d531370599207.jpg

https://images2.imagebam.com/be/ca/2a/79c4e51370599218.png

https://images2.imagebam.com/7c/41/ae/eb8d1b1370599220.png

Meanwhile Jordan the frontrunner never had to face adversity due to playing in an era where a bunch of teams couldn't beat Hakeem + a bunch of role players. And the few times he truly faced adversity? He lost most of the time, as seen in his elimination game record:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeF6V-oXkAEzFk_.jpg

[DoctorP]

Jordan eating Branstans alive like a brain cancer. Not even a birthday thread.

[Kiddlovesnets]

https://images2.imagebam.com/ec/03/16/d17d531370599207.jpg

https://images2.imagebam.com/be/ca/2a/79c4e51370599218.png

https://images2.imagebam.com/7c/41/ae/eb8d1b1370599220.png

Meanwhile Jordan the frontrunner never had to face adversity due to playing in an era where a bunch of teams couldn't beat Hakeem + a bunch of role players. And the few times he truly faced adversity? He lost most of the time, as seen in his elimination game record:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeF6V-oXkAEzFk_.jpg

So Lebron underachieved in regular season and conference playoffs and his team ended up being an underdog in the finals, whose fault was this? How did this become a positive to his career? He was supposed to win these rings as title favorite rather than underdog as pre-season odds indicated, he simply did was he was supposed to do. And nope, he only won half of the times as title favorite(going 3/6 from 11 to 16), MJ would never lose when he was favorite to win.

[2much_knowledge]

Happy birthday GOAT

[TheGoatest]

So Lebron underachieved in regular season and conference playoffs and his team ended up being an underdog in the finals, whose fault was this? How did this become a positive to his career? He was supposed to win these rings as title favorite rather than underdog as pre-season odds indicated, he simply did was he was supposed to do. And nope, he only won half of the times as title favorite(going 3/6 from 11 to 16), MJ would never lose when he was favorite to win.

More like other teams from the opposite conference got better than their preseason odds and LeBron still overcame this in 2012, 2013 and 2016. Meanwhile Jordan the frontrunner never had to worry about this, because in the end he would only run into teams who couldn't beat Hakeem + a bunch of role players or teams who lost to a team who couldn't beat Hakeem + a bunch of role players.

[Axe]

Given how media can easily manipulate something like this and make an issue out of it agoanst Lebron, I would think players would tend to be more political with what they say or post. Then again, its always good to see players respecting each other.
I think it's easier to form or express them nowadays due to presence of social media too, something like simple tweets or posts which would get reactions from different people. Even older living legends like bill russell does that. Two weeks ago he joked that covid is not a shot he's going to block, despite being a perennial shot-blocker his whole career. I think it's funny lmao.

[KennyPowers]

Lebrón fans show up to brag about their boyfriend. This thread has nothing to do with LeBron, ya gay queers. Just go ask LeBron if you can suck him off. After he says no, just shut the f*** up. So f*cking gay

[DoctorP]

my fave Jordan gif. is this 60 FPS? probably 30...

http://media.giphy.com/media/VQ4ZE2kxgsOKk/giphy.gif

[Chick Stern]

while MJ was 5/5 as pre-season title favorite from 1992-1993 and 1996-1998.
:facepalm:
*during the weakest NBA decade

[SATAN]

One year closer to death. Can't wait to cash in on all the old basketball cards.

[8Ball]

GOAT is 36 and its not his birthday.

Lock thread.

[Axe]

GOAT is 36 and its not his birthday.

Lock thread.
I'd prefer if 36 year old be called king instead.

[Kiddlovesnets]

More like other teams from the opposite conference got better than their preseason odds and LeBron still overcame this in 2012, 2013 and 2016. Meanwhile Jordan the frontrunner never had to worry about this, because in the end he would only run into teams who couldn't beat Hakeem + a bunch of role players or teams who lost to a team who couldn't beat Hakeem + a bunch of role players.

So why other teams could improve but Lebron's team degraded since the season started? Lebron's system was great for role players, but severely limited the games of all-star teammates since they were forced to play the way Lebron system needed them to. Effectively, they are all turned into glorified role players, hence why the team always looked as if they were lacking talents and Lebron was the only true star on a team even though they had big three. Lebron's system was what got him to finals consistently, but it was also the reason why he kept losing in the finals.

[3ball]

Lebron's system was what got him to finals consistently, but it was also the reason why he kept losing in the finals.





Any system will get big 3's to the Finals, so Lebron made the Finals from 11-17' by having big 3 supporting talent, not bron-ball system.

Of course, he made the Finals as a 1-star team in 07', but everyone was doing that at the time - Iverson/Dwight/Kidd

And in 2018, he had the best 2nd option in the conference (Love would've been the 3rd or 4th best first option)

[Airupthere]

Any system will get big 3's to the Finals, so Lebron made the Finals from 11-17' by having big 3 supporting talent, not bron-ball system.

Of course, he made the Finals as a 1-star team in 07', but everyone was doing that at the time - Iverson/Dwight/Kidd

And in 2018, he had the best 2nd option in the conference (Love would've been the 3rd or 4th best first option)

Bron ball allows lebron to load up stats.
Superteaming/eliminating competition allows him to get to the finals.
Hot potatoing and not being able to shoot contested shots lead him to be incapable of sealing the deal in the finals.

Lebron was so confident of his superteam in MIA, because he knew exactly how he much tipped the odds to his favor that he blurted out “not 1, not 2...” you know the rest

[Hey Yo]

Any system will get big 3's to the Finals, so Lebron made the Finals from 11-17' by having big 3 supporting talent, not bron-ball system.

Of course, he made the Finals as a 1-star team in 07', but everyone was doing that at the time - Iverson/Dwight/Kidd

And in 2018, he had the best 2nd option in the conference (Love would've been the 3rd or 4th best first option)

Who were the big 3 in 2014 and 2015 for Miami and Cleveland in the postseason?

[clipps]

Who were the big 3 in 2014 and 2015 for Miami and Cleveland in the postseason?

LeFraud joining 2 superstars eliminated 2 conference contenders, making his road to to the finals much easier.

[dbugz]

got swept in the finals twice.

there's no coming back from that :oldlol: :roll:

[3ball]

Who were the big 3 in 2014 and 2015 for Miami and Cleveland in the postseason?





2014 ECF

Lebron.... 22 ppg
Wade...... 20 ppg (20/5/5)


Any team with Wade as sidekick should make the Finals

Ditto Kyrie or Love






Who were the big 3 in 2014 and 2015 for Miami and Cleveland in the postseason?





Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat


Playoffs

14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Playoffs - Per 100 Possessions

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


^^^ Lebron got more production from his sidekick while trying to 3-peat, but failed because he didn't go for it - he didn't seek the high volume or 40 ppg needed to 3-peat like Jordan did.. instead, he attempted a pathetic "give up" volume, aka 17 shots per game in the Finals

[Hey Yo]

2014 ECF

Lebron.... 22 ppg
Wade...... 20 ppg (20/5/5)


Any team with Wade as sidekick should make the Finals

Ditto Kyrie or Love






Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat


Playoffs

14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Playoffs - Per 100 Possessions

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm




^^^ Lebron got more production from his sidekick while trying to 3-peat, but failed because he didn't go for it - he didn't seek the high volume or 40 ppg needed to 3-peat like Jordan did.. instead, he attempted a pathetic "give up" volume, aka 17 shots per game in the Finals

Who were the big 3 in 2014 and 2015 for Miami and Cleveland in the postseason?

Pippen 1993 DWS 1.1

Wade 2014 DWS 0.5

[3ball]

Who were the big 3 in 2014 and 2015 for Miami and Cleveland in the postseason?

Pippen 1993 DWS 1.1

Wade 2014 DWS 0.5


Lebron/Wade/Bosh were the big 3 in 2014 - that's obvious and I'm not sure why you asked that

in 2015, lebron only had "a pippen" with JR Smith getting 18/8 on 68% true shooting against the Hawks (better than prime pippen).. Lebron always needed good scoring and efficiency from a sidekick to beat a top 5 SRS team like the Hawks..

Indeed, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)

[HighFlyer23]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m90qtjujHz1rnt56ho1_400.gif

G O A T

Some of these "hang time" moves are very close to violations ... Jordan may have landed before releasing the ball on some of them ... I'm surprised no one has ever noticed that

[Airupthere]

Some of these "hang time" moves are very close to violations ... Jordan may have landed before releasing the ball on some of them ... I'm surprised no one has ever noticed that

That is a very difficult shot to make. Start at 20 seconds. It is close but he releases the ball before landing. Very close but it is clean. If he landed first before releasing that would just look and feel ridiculous.


https://youtu.be/XDiiVg48zAI

[Hey Yo]

Lebron/Wade/Bosh were the big 3 in 2014 - that's obvious and I'm not sure why you asked that

in 2015, lebron only had "a pippen" with JR Smith getting 18/8 on 68% true shooting against the Hawks (better than prime pippen).. Lebron always needed good scoring and efficiency from a sidekick to beat a top 5 SRS team like the Hawks..

Indeed, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)

2014 Miami big 3 in the playoffs avg..... 27ppg, 18ppg and 15ppg

1986 Chicago big 4 in the playoffs avg.... 43ppg, 21ppg, 12ppg (9 boards) and 10ppg (10 boards)

1993 Pippen DWS 1.1
2014 Wade DWS 0.5

[HighFlyer23]

That is a very difficult shot to make. Start at 20 seconds. It is close but he releases the ball before landing. Very close but it is clean. If he landed first before releasing that would just look and feel ridiculous.


https://youtu.be/XDiiVg48zAI

It's very close

Literally a fraction of a second of a difference ... You can't even tell with those camera angles and the frame rate

[RogueBorg]

Surprised wade said that

Why would you be surprised? Wade grew up in Chicago and old enough to remember the 90's Bulls.
AD on the other hand, was not old enough to remember the 90's Bulls.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron/Wade/Bosh were the big 3 in 2014 - that's obvious and I'm not sure why you asked that

in 2015, lebron only had "a pippen" with JR Smith getting 18/8 on 68% true shooting against the Hawks (better than prime pippen).. Lebron always needed good scoring and efficiency from a sidekick to beat a top 5 SRS team like the Hawks..

Indeed, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)

JR went 11/4/1 on 42% TS in the finals, with the worst DRTG on the team. His "Pippen" :lol

[Kiddlovesnets]

JR went 11/4/1 on 42% TS in the finals, with the worst DRTG on the team. His "Pippen" :lol

Lebron ball has no place for a Pippen anyway, who would've been deprived of the ball handler role and turned into a spot up shooter. Lebron's best teammate would be the likes of Klay Thompson and Ray Allen, Pippen would not have fared any better than Larry Hughs.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron ball has no place for a Pippen anyway, who would've been deprived of the ball handler role and turned into a spot up shooter. Lebron's best teammate would be the likes of Klay Thompson and Ray Allen, Pippen would not have fared any better than Larry Hughs.
Lebron and Pippen play the same position, and played the position similarly on top of that. No shit a SG would be a better pairing.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Lebron and Pippen play the same position, and played the position similarly on top of that. No shit a SG would be a better pairing.

Its more than that though, Wade played SG and he was not fitting well in Lebron's system 'cause he was also a ball handler and not a spot up shooter. Lebron needs not just a SG, but a 3-D like SG who plays off ball. MJ can adjust to teammates' playstyle, he can play with or without the ball. Lebron on the other hand, can only play with the ball in his hands, hence why hes not compatible with most all star teammates who need to share the ball to be effective.

[ShawkFactory]

Its more than that though, Wade played SG and he was not fitting well in Lebron's system 'cause he was also a ball handler and not a spot up shooter. Lebron needs not just a SG, but a 3-D like SG who plays off ball. MJ can adjust to teammates' playstyle, he can play with or without the ball. Lebron on the other hand, can only play with the ball in his hands, hence why hes not compatible with most all star teammates who need to share the ball to be effective.
This is true of earlier Lebron. He changed after 2014.

Regardless of that, Lebron and Pippen are redundant. It's a bad example to make your point.

[3ball]

This is true of earlier Lebron. He changed after 2014.

Regardless of that, Lebron and Pippen are redundant. It's a bad example to make your point.


Lebron lacks the skills to play with pippen and any sub-par shooting ball-handler, aka Hughes, Ingram, Rose, Wade, Pippen

That makes him inferior to Jordan, whose scoring versatility and shooting fit with any teammate or system

[Axe]

Some of these "hang time" moves are very close to violations ... Jordan may have landed before releasing the ball on some of them ... I'm surprised no one has ever noticed that
Close to violations because he's the only one who can often do it?

[HighFlyer23]

Close to violations because he's the only one who can often do it?

That's another point ... I don't see others ever release the ball that close to landing ... Just imagine what it would mean if Jordans "hang time" shots were mostly up and down travels

[Kiddlovesnets]

This is true of earlier Lebron. He changed after 2014.

Regardless of that, Lebron and Pippen are redundant. It's a bad example to make your point.

Its not a bad example. The truth is that most all-star and superstar players need the ball or at least to share the ball to be effective, the likes of Ray and Klay are rare. This is why Lebron's system doesnt work well for all star caliber teammates, he turns everyone into glorified role players which works well for actual role players but sharply reduce the productivity of star teammates. In the regular season and conference playoffs, the system was enough efficient. In the finals however, the pressure of the biggest stage aint good for most role players so it all comes down to star power. Lebron's team has only one star, himself.

[TheGoatest]

Lebron and Pippen play the same position, and played the position similarly on top of that. No shit a SG would be a better pairing.

:oldlol:

Kareem and Shaq couldn't mix well on the same team at the same time. Neither could Isiah Thomas and John Stockton. What a bunch of losers.

Except the hilarious thing is that LeBron and Pippen on the same team would actually mix well, and mix waaaay better than Jordan and Kobe for example.

LeBron has multiple 30 ppg seasons and countless 30+ ppg playoff runs. Jordan has one blatantly stat-padded 8.0 apg season in his career:

https://images2.imagebam.com/6a/6c/fa/e095b41370704315.png

Aside from that, he doesn't even have a 7 apg season. Meanwhile, with his sheer GIRTH of all-time scoring credentials/records LeBron could definitely take the role as a scorer while Pippen kept a similar role he had on the Bulls championship teams. Not only that, but LeBron could play both below as well as above Scottie in terms of position.

In his 2012 and 2013 championship/Finals MVP runs, he was overwhelmingly playing power forward.
In the 2015-16 championship/Finals MVP he was the small forward the majority of the time.
In the 2019-20 championship/Finals MVP he was overwhelmingly the point guard/guard:

https://images2.imagebam.com/8a/e2/ed/29b99c1370704861.png

Meanwhile the data that we have on Jordan is from his last two championships, where he played shooting guard 94% and 96% of the time:

https://images2.imagebam.com/5f/a7/33/e0e5441370704979.png

Jordan was way more limited in terms of position versatility, on both ends of the floor.