If Stephen Curry wins a championship this year is he the greatest player of all-time?

[Stephonit]

If Stephen Curry somehow leads the previous year's bottom dwelling Warriors to a championship this year, wouldn't that make him the greatest player of all-time? It would be a spectacular carry job and the greatest example of floor raising. Combine that with his already exceptional ceiling raising exploits in the modern NBA era and I don't see why he wouldn't be the greatest.

[Axe]

If he somehow wins a ring this year, there's a big chance that he wouldn't be the fmvp as usual.

[Stephonit]

If he somehow wins a ring this year, there's a big chance that he wouldn't be the fmvp.

All the more reason for him to be considered the greatest because we all the know the league is doing it's best to play down his accomplishments and nerf him to give the other players a chance at winning.

[LoneyROY7]

OP you're a clown...but Steph has been balling out of control lately.

That said, we both know he's not winning a chip this year.

[Stephonit]

Who's the clown? You probably believed the media when they said the Rockets should be favored to advance in 2019 after KD got injured.

[LoneyROY7]

Who's the clown? You probably believed the media when they said the Rockets should be favored to advance in 2019 after KD got injured.

Steph absolutely balled out in the 2nd half of game 6. Well-deserved. Harden also averaged 35/7/6 that series while his running mate CP played nowhere near his capabilities.

Meanwhile, Steph had Klay bombing clutch 3s alongside him. It is what it is though. Credit to Wardell for stepping up.

[Real Men Wear Green]

NBA fanfic sucks.

[Akeem34TheDream]

If Minnesota Timberwolwes win the title KAT will be the goat.

[Stephonit]

NBA fanfic sucks.

Brady NFL fanfic needs to be given a run for its money.

[tpols]

Well he already led a team to the most wins in the NBA and a championship in 2015 with +2800 odds to win the title at the beginning of the season. To illustrate how dominant that is ~ MJ in his first title winning season had +700 odds to win the title... meaning his team was thought to be 4x more likely to win the title than the 2015 warriors.

It's totally absurd because I can't find a team that won the title with worse odds. The 2011 Mavericks were only +2000. 2004 Detroit was +1500.

HAKEEM's teams, who everybody acts like were insane underdogs were +1200 and +450 (!) in 1995 and 1994 respectively.

Chef is the most underrated GOAT of all time and people still don't appreciate it.

[MaxPlayer]

Yeah sure why not

[Axe]

Well he already led a team to the most wins in the NBA and a championship in 2015 with +2800 odds to win the title at the beginning of the season. To illustrate how dominant that is ~ MJ in his first title winning season had +700 odds to win the title... meaning his team was thought to be 4x more likely to win the title than the 2015 warriors.

It's totally absurd because I can't find a team that won the title with worse odds. The 2011 Mavericks were only +2000. 2004 Detroit was +1500.

HAKEEM's teams, who everybody acts like were insane underdogs were +1200 and +450 (!) in 1995 and 1994 respectively.

Chef is the most underrated GOAT of all time and people still don't appreciate it.
+2800 odds for a team that has won 67 games during that season. How dumb af.

[tpols]

+2800 odds for a team that has won 67 games during that season. How dumb af.

The Vegas over under for them that season was 52.5 wins. That was the split. They won 67.

MASSIVE overachievements cannot be discounted or discarded.

[ArbitraryWater]

Well he already led a team to the most wins in the NBA and a championship in 2015 with +2800 odds to win the title at the beginning of the season. To illustrate how dominant that is ~ MJ in his first title winning season had +700 odds to win the title... meaning his team was thought to be 4x more likely to win the title than the 2015 warriors.

It's totally absurd because I can't find a team that won the title with worse odds. The 2011 Mavericks were only +2000. 2004 Detroit was +1500.

HAKEEM's teams, who everybody acts like were insane underdogs were +1200 and +450 (!) in 1995 and 1994 respectively.

Chef is the most underrated GOAT of all time and people still don't appreciate it.

why do you take pre season odds as end all for your assessment of underdog/load carry?

[Axe]

The Vegas over under for them that season was 52.5 wins. That was the split. They won 67.

MASSIVE overachievements cannot be discounted or discarded.
Well, just goes to show that steve kerr was the catalyst to pioneering this team into a dynasty.

[light]

If Stephen Curry somehow leads the previous year's bottom dwelling Warriors to a championship this year, wouldn't that make him the greatest player of all-time? It would be a spectacular carry job and the greatest example of floor raising. Combine that with his already exceptional ceiling raising exploits in the modern NBA era and I don't see why he wouldn't be the greatest.

It would be quite an accomplishment but people still would not think of him as the GOAT, no.

He's not lacking awards or rings for consideration. He's lacking game.

[scuzzy]

Andrew Wiggins 2021 FMVP

[tpols]

why do you take pre season odds as end all for your assessment of underdog/load carry?

Because it's exactly the expectations that were had at the time when... the season ****ing started. Hindsight bias is extremely strong. If there were major injuries or trades or something mid season we could talk context. In Curry's case for 2015, he did benefit from injury but those Warriors were favorites going into the Finals, and won game 1 with Kyrie playing. So they still could've easily won. +2800 odds. And it was because of their BRAND of basketball... odds are often based on talent because talent often wins out.

But the 2015 Warriors with the advent of Steve Kerr and incorporation of award winning ball movement made a team with less talent play way over their heads and become dominant over teams like the Cavs, who had +275 odds (LOL) to win the title and only won 53 games to the Dub's 67. Kyrie and Kevin Love both played 75 games so injury is no excuse. It was just POOR brand of ball. That's it bro.

[Axe]

Because it's exactly the expectations that were had at the time when... the season ****ing started. Hindsight bias is extremely strong. If there were major injuries or trades or something mid season we could talk context. In Curry's case for 2015, he did benefit from injury but those Warriors were favorites going into the Finals, and won game 1 with Kyrie playing. So they still could've easily won. +2800 odds. And it was because of their BRAND of basketball... odds are often based on talent because talent often wins out.

But the 2015 Warriors with the advent of Steve Kerr and incorporation of award winning ball movement made a team with less talent play way over their heads and become dominant over teams like the Cavs, who had +275 odds (LOL) to win the title and only won 53 games to the Dub's 67. Kyrie and Kevin Love both played 75 games so injury is no excuse. It was just POOR brand of ball. That's it bro.
It's a useless basis lmao

[8Ball]

He will crack the top 15.

[Mask the Embiid]

Absolutely

[SouBeachTalents]

:biggums: He already is the greatest player of all time

[ShawkFactory]

Because it's exactly the expectations that were had at the time when... the season ****ing started. Hindsight bias is extremely strong. If there were major injuries or trades or something mid season we could talk context. In Curry's case for 2015, he did benefit from injury but those Warriors were favorites going into the Finals, and won game 1 with Kyrie playing. So they still could've easily won. +2800 odds. And it was because of their BRAND of basketball... odds are often based on talent because talent often wins out.

But the 2015 Warriors with the advent of Steve Kerr and incorporation of award winning ball movement made a team with less talent play way over their heads and become dominant over teams like the Cavs, who had +275 odds (LOL) to win the title and only won 53 games to the Dub's 67. Kyrie and Kevin Love both played 75 games so injury is no excuse. It was just POOR brand of ball. That's it bro.
Using preseason odds to determine anything is really really stupid. The fact that you don't realize this is bizarre. Preseason odds have no bearing on how a team actually plays or how good they are.

The 1999 Rams are the greatest preseason Super Bowl underdog ever. Yes...the Greatest Show on Turf. One of the best teams of all time. Some of the other massive underdogs (> 50/1 odds) are the 2017 Eagles, 2001 Patriots, and 1981 49ers.

You're hindsight is 20/20 argument is not valid.

[Axe]

:biggums: He already is the greatest player of all time
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DesertedUncommonGreendarnerdragonfly-size_restricted.gif

[Walk on Water]

If he somehow wins a ring this year, there's a big chance that he wouldn't be the fmvp as usual.


That's what makes Steph great. He doesn't even have to get a single MVP vote to win the championship. He's a team player.

[Walk on Water]

:biggums: He already is the greatest player of all time



People are afraid of what they don't understand.

[TheGoatest]

If he somehow wins a ring this year, there's a big chance that he wouldn't be the fmvp as usual.

Damn, imagine losing FMVP to Andrew Wiggins.

[Walk on Water]

Because it's exactly the expectations that were had at the time when... the season ****ing started. Hindsight bias is extremely strong. If there were major injuries or trades or something mid season we could talk context. In Curry's case for 2015, he did benefit from injury but those Warriors were favorites going into the Finals, and won game 1 with Kyrie playing. So they still could've easily won. +2800 odds. And it was because of their BRAND of basketball... odds are often based on talent because talent often wins out.

But the 2015 Warriors with the advent of Steve Kerr and incorporation of award winning ball movement made a team with less talent play way over their heads and become dominant over teams like the Cavs, who had +275 odds (LOL) to win the title and only won 53 games to the Dub's 67. Kyrie and Kevin Love both played 75 games so injury is no excuse. It was just POOR brand of ball. That's it bro.


Yea Warriors did win game 1 with Kyrie. Nobody talks about that. Every excuse in the book. Warriors really deserved the title the next year more than the Cavs did. But in the end they did whoop Lebron James 3 out of 4 times.

[tpols]

Using preseason odds to determine anything is really really stupid. The fact that you don't realize this is bizarre. Preseason odds have no bearing on how a team actually plays or how good they are.

The 1999 Rams are the greatest preseason Super Bowl underdog ever. Yes...the Greatest Show on Turf. One of the best teams of all time. Some of the other massive underdogs (> 50/1 odds) are the 2017 Eagles, 2001 Patriots, and 1981 49ers.

You're hindsight is 20/20 argument is not valid.

It's not stupid at all. Football is far more variant than basketball. Way more injuries and 1 and done playoff format. Any given Sunday. One or two big plays can make a game. (and season) Basketball is far more straight forward and predictable. Again... Nostradamus... along with Kblaze... please give us tips on who to bet on right now based on current odds. Since everybody else is so dumb, make us all some money!

[Walk on Water]

Damn, imagine losing FMVP to Andrew Wiggins.


You mean making a player better.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Because it's exactly the expectations that were had at the time when... the season ****ing started. Hindsight bias is extremely strong. If there were major injuries or trades or something mid season we could talk context. In Curry's case for 2015, he did benefit from injury but those Warriors were favorites going into the Finals, and won game 1 with Kyrie playing. So they still could've easily won. +2800 odds. And it was because of their BRAND of basketball... odds are often based on talent because talent often wins out.

But the 2015 Warriors with the advent of Steve Kerr and incorporation of award winning ball movement made a team with less talent play way over their heads and become dominant over teams like the Cavs, who had +275 odds (LOL) to win the title and only won 53 games to the Dub's 67. Kyrie and Kevin Love both played 75 games so injury is no excuse. It was just POOR brand of ball. That's it bro.

2015 Warriors won as such an underdog because they performed much better as a team and Curry had a breakout year with a new coach. Are you really blaming other stars for being more consistent through out their career? 98 Bulls would have been favored less to win the title if they had not won 5 times prior. Does that make it less of an achievement?

[Axe]

2015 Warriors won as such an underdog because they performed much better as a team and Curry had a breakout year with a new coach. Are you really blaming other stars for being more consistent through out their career? 98 Bulls would have been favored less to win the title if they had not won 5 times prior. Does that make it less of an achievement?
In fairness, curry hasn't won anything significant and wasn't prominent yet until steve kerr came to coach his team.

[ShawkFactory]

It's not stupid at all. Football is far more variant than basketball. Way more injuries and 1 and done playoff format. Any given Sunday. One or two big plays can make a game. (and season) Basketball is far more straight forward and predictable. Again... Nostradamus... along with Kblaze... please give us tips on who to bet on right now based on current odds. Since everybody else is so dumb, make us all some money!

What? You're the only one making this argument :lol

Any given Sunday doesn't apply to the 1999 Rams. They went 13-3, had what is widely recognized as a top 5 offense and probably a top 10 team in general of all time. And had 150/1 odds in the preseason. There were factors that no one knew about before they started playing (Kurt Warner being for real is obviously the big one). And that includes people like me and Kblaze who are calling you out on the stupidity of this argument.

You're just completely missing the point. I'm not claiming to know better than the current odds. But the current odds don't matter in May.

Lebron could wear down as the season progresses and AD could never get back to his full self.

KD, Kyrie, and Harden might never click. Or they might start grooving beautifully, making the fact that they are current underdogs to the Lakers look silly.

Ben Simmons might gain some confidence and start shooting.

Anything could happen; and this is based on odds in February. I trust you realize that preseason odds mean even less.

The Greatest Show on Turf winning at 150/1 and the 2015 Warriors at 28/1 are merely pieces of trivia. It has no bearing on how impressive a feat their title is. Once games are actually played things change.

[ShawkFactory]

Yea Warriors did win game 1 with Kyrie. Nobody talks about that. Every excuse in the book. Warriors really deserved the title the next year more than the Cavs did. But in the end they did whoop Lebron James 3 out of 4 times.

They won game 1 at home in OT...

In no way was that series an easy win for the Warriors if Kyrie doesn't go down. I'd guess it goes 7. And we know that game 7 is a crap shoot.

If Love is there the Cavs are definite favorites and very easily could have won though.

[clipps]

Stephen Curry is really good at basketball.

[Axe]

Stephen Curry is really good at basketball.
I don't know. His defense is marginal at best.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He's not on that level due to his lack of defense and lack of size\height\length. Also has the biggest chokejob in nba history on his plate (73 win team and blow a 3-1 lead in finals). Never won a finals MVP despite being to 5 different finals. Stick to comparing him to guys like Steve Nash.

[Stephonit]

He's not on that level due to his lack of defense and lack of size\height\length. Also has the biggest chokejob in nba history on his plate (73 win team and blow a 3-1 lead in finals). Never won a finals MVP despite being to 5 different finals. Stick to comparing him to guys like Steve Nash.

Shows how you let preconceived ideas of how a player should play or look determine who the greatest player should be rather than what they accomplish.

According to your prejudice it seems that a player who theoretically went 82-0 and 16-0 carrying the worst team the previous season to a title with a roster than hadn't done anything previously couldn't possibly be the best player if he didn't look the part, play the way you expected him to and if the media didn't call him such.

Are you sure you aren't a racist, sexist, ageist, or heightist in real life?

[Stanley Kobrick]

he plays no defense and is a liability when his shots aren't falling

[Stephonit]

he plays no defense and is a liability when his shots aren't falling

You might as well say that because Helen Keller was both deaf and blind, she couldn't possibly amount to anything.

[tpols]

2015 Warriors won as such an underdog because they performed much better as a team and Curry had a breakout year with a new coach. Are you really blaming other stars for being more consistent through out their career? 98 Bulls would have been favored less to win the title if they had not won 5 times prior. Does that make it less of an achievement?

Fun fact. Curry scored more PPG in the 2014 regular season than he did in the 2015 regular season on similar efficiency. Also had more assists as well in 2014. Curry was already great then, his true breakout was 2016. But the Warriors we're considered underdogs to the Cavs even going into the 2016 season. So people weren't betting on them even after they won a championship. And they used to own Cleveland with their ball movement and superior brand of basketball. Casual fans can't pick up on those nuances so they just vote for who had more talent ~ Cleveland. But the Warriors played better basketball in the end.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You might as well say that because Helen Keller was both deaf and blind, she couldn't possibly amount to anything.

Hey I'm not none of those things man, I was just describing Curry as he is. To win finals mvp, all you have to do is win the series and be dominant for a 3-4 game stretch. Curry has never been dominant in a finals series like Kawhi has 2x

Also, kawhi eliminated curry in 2013 and 2019. Curry would of never won it in 2015 if he faced Kawhi.

Curry just doesn't have what it takes to be a goat level player. His defense has gotten worse as he ages as well, this season warriors defense is way better when curry is off the court. I would say he's a top 25 goat when he retires.

Curry also is handcuffed to Draymond/Klay for his entire life. He has never won anything without them and never will. Handcuffed to Draymond like Jordan is to Pippen.

Kawhi has won with multiple supporting casts in spurs and raptors teams.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

3 bold points destroyed OP Hahahaha that will teach you to call me names for no reason.

[tpols]

Curry has never been dominant in a finals series like Kawhi has 2x

This is hilarious especially because you bolded it.

So Curry's 27/9/8 in 2017 is < Kawhi's 18/6/2 in 2014 ...?

You need to pass the shit you're smoking bro.



Handcuffed to Draymond like Jordan is to Pippen.

You don't get credit for team hopping. That's a knock. A bad thing. Kawhi pussied out with the Spurs because he knew they were done. And he's been team hopping ever since. Again... that is a BAD thing. You don't get a cookie for that.

[ShawkFactory]

3 bold points destroyed OP Hahahaha that will teach you to call me names for no reason.

Ignoring the fact that you somehow had to double post to randomly bring up Kawhi...in 2015 the Spurs lost to the Clippers in a game 7 where Kawhi scored 13 points.

Old ass Duncan was trying to carry his ass but couldn't

[highwhey]

You might as well say that because Helen Keller was both deaf and blind, she couldn't possibly amount to anything.

Helen Keller wasn't a liability on defense though.

[Stephonit]

3 bold points destroyed OP Hahahaha that will teach you to call me names for no reason.

This is pathetic. The other guys dealt with the first two bolded parts sufficiently. So I'll deal with the third bit of nonsense.


Curry also is handcuffed to Draymond/Klay for his entire life. He has never won anything without them and never will. Handcuffed to Draymond like Jordan is to Pippen.

Setting aside that to win championships Kawhi played with players who had independently established themselves as the best players on their own teams and/or been All-NBA or better in the likes of Duncan, Manu, and Parker or Marc Gasol and Kyle Lowry before ever playing with him, Kawhi's highest current successes are also "handcuffed" to Danny Green. Unlike Draymond/Klay, however, who have not done much on their own without Curry besides Draymond showing he is a great tank commander without Curry, Danny Green was able to win another ring without Kawhi.

[tpols]

I love the "married to draymond" comment.

:roll:

Dray is averaging 5 PPG on 101 ORTG this year. -6 splits. He is AWFUL. His offensive prowess makes Dennis Rodman look like Magic Johnson. But unlike Dennis, Dray only grabs 5 boards a game. FIVE boards a game.

:biggums:

Meanwhile Paul George is averaging 24 PPG on 119 ORTG. Awesome. Both are great defenders so that's a push. Kawhi could never replicate what Curry is doing with this team, and vice versa if you put him on the Clippers they'd be a dynasty juggernaut like the Dubs used to be. Paul George is better than anybody Curry ever played with outside of Durant.

[Axe]

he plays no defense and is a liability when his shots aren't falling
:cheers:

[ShawkFactory]

I love the "married to draymond" comment.

:roll:

Dray is averaging 5 PPG on 101 ORTG this year. -6 splits. He is AWFUL. His offensive prowess makes Dennis Rodman look like Magic Johnson. But unlike Dennis, Dray only grabs 5 boards a game. FIVE boards a game.

:biggums:

Meanwhile Paul George is averaging 24 PPG on 119 ORTG. Awesome. Both are great defenders so that's a push. Kawhi could never replicate what Curry is doing with this team, and vice versa if you put him on the Clippers they'd be a dynasty juggernaut like the Dubs used to be. Paul George is better than anybody Curry ever played with outside of Durant.

Pretty big point here. If it weren't for Durant we'd likely be looking at Curry as someone who had a great 2 year regular season stretch that only won 1 championship because the opposition was decimated with injuries.

20 years from now the injury talk probably won't matter (see the Pistons first championship in '88). But at best he'd be the greatest shooter ever who won once. Not a bad "at best" relative to most. But not relative to the thread title.

[tpols]

Pretty big point here. If it weren't for Durant we'd likely be looking at Curry as someone who had a great 2 year regular season stretch that only won 1 championship because the opposition was decimated with injuries.

20 years from now the injury talk probably won't matter (see the Pistons first championship in '88). But at best he'd be the greatest shooter ever who won once. Not a bad "at best" relative to most. But not relative to the thread title.

That's bullshit. The Warriors won 73 games and a championship without KD and were totally dominant. They still would be competing without KD, although obviously wouldn't be as cheat code as they were with him.

I think you need a fact check and reminder. Steph Curry beat and outplayed individually Kevin Durant in the 2016 playoffs. There's no reason to think he couldn't do it again.

[Stephonit]

Pretty big point here. If it weren't for Durant we'd likely be looking at Curry as someone who had a great 2 year regular season stretch that only won 1 championship because the opposition was decimated with injuries.

20 years from now the injury talk probably won't matter (see the Pistons first championship in '88). But at best he'd be the greatest shooter ever who won once. Not a bad "at best" relative to most. But not relative to the thread title.

Why wouldn't the Warriors still be in contention in 2017, 2018 and 2019 without KD?

Curry and the Warriors got the regular season wins record before KD joined. They got the playoffs record with him. Records by definition are best. Compare to other teams in history. Is there another team in history that had two superstars form a team that was clearly better? No. Also as great as KD is he didn't win a championship before joining Curry.

In 2015 Curry showed he could take underdogs with +2800 odds and a roster that had never seen a finals at the start of the season to a championship. Name the team that won with longer odds. Makes him a candidate for the greatest floor raiser ever.

In 2016 Curry led the Warriors to the best regular season record. What one would expect from the greatest ceiling raiser ever.

In 2017 Curry led the Warriors to the best playoffs record. What one would expect from the greatest ceiling raiser ever.

If in 2021 Curry leads this team that finished last the previous season and started the year with +3000 championship odds to a championship he'd basically repeat what he did in 2015 with an even longer shot team composed with an almost entirely different cast who've accomplished even less previously. Curry would be the greatest floor raiser ever.

So Curry would be the greatest ceiling raiser ever and the greatest floor raiser ever. In other words the best player ever.

[Smoke117]

There is zero chance of that happening, but no it wouldn’t.

[ShawkFactory]

That's bullshit. The Warriors won 73 games and a championship without KD and were totally dominant. They still would be competing without KD, although obviously wouldn't be as cheat code as they were with him.

I think you need a fact check and reminder. Steph Curry beat and outplayed individually Kevin Durant in the 2016 playoffs. There's no reason to think he couldn't do it again.

Of course they were dominant. That's why I alluded to his regular season prowess.

They'd certainly be competing but it was clear that when the going got tough, Steph wasn't really the type to take over a finals game. He showed it, and I think the Cavs kind of clocked them. The rematch would be close in 2017, but there's no reason to think that the Cavs wouldn't win again. Especially since Lebron and Kyrie were better and Dray started to show his faults a little bit more. For all of the injury talk in 2016 (the Cavs dealt with it too, which no one mentions), there is no way in HELL that Dray performs on that level again offensively.

And who's to say that they even get by the Spurs without Durant (and without the Kawhi injury).

These are all random luck events of course. But it's very possible that they don't win another.