Anyone that doesn't think Worthy would've 4-peated with MJ from 87-91'...

[3ball]

doesn't know basketball or history

Jordan nearly beat the Pistons with no sidekick in 89' and 90', so he would destroy them with "Piston-killer" James Worthy.

Worthy was #1 option on the 87' and 88' Lakers over Magic/Kareem, so he played better than Pippen ever did.. Pippen was just the low-producing bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

Btw, Worthy would've 7-peated with MJ from 85-91' - Worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals and dominated his first Playoffs more than Pippen ever did

[Manny98]

Yh MJ is not beating the 86 or 87 Celtics with Worthy lol, MJ was still a baby himself for starters

Let's just leave it at 4-peat maybe he's definitely not 7-peating bruh :oldlol:

[Smoke117]

1-9

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Probably not, no.

[SouBeachTalents]

You really think rookie Jordan & Worthy are beating the Celtics & Lakers :oldlol:

[3ball]

MJ is not beating the 86 or 87 Celtics with Worthy lol, MJ was still a baby himself for starters





Isiah beat those Celtics before Dumars was even an all-star, but MJ can't beat them with prime Worthy?

Preposterous

And you think MJ was a "baby"?

He was 23 years old and averaging 37/5/5.. he was never a "baby", but simply had the same help that lebron had in 04' or 19' (lottery help)

[3ball]

You really think rookie Jordan & Worthy are beating the Celtics & Lakers :oldlol:


86' Jordan was "God" according to Bird

I'm sure Bird would agree that God + prime Worthy would beat his Celtics

[Micku]

Probably not.

I doubt they'll be beating the Celts in 87. It won't be a sweep tho.

88, they may given the Pistons more of challenge. Worthy would be making more shots since the attention was on MJ, but it won't be enough to beat'em I think. Worthy could shoot better than Pippen could at that stage. And with the fastbreak, he was more deadly.

In 89 and 90, maybe. It depends on team. Like is Pippen still on? Grant?

[3ball]

Probably not.

I doubt they'll be beating the Celts in 87. It won't be a sweep tho.

88, they may given the Pistons more of challenge. Worthy would be making more shots since the attention was on MJ, but it won't be enough to beat'em I think. Worthy could shoot better than Pippen could at that stage. And with the fastbreak, he was more deadly.

In 89 and 90, maybe. It depends on team. Like is Pippen still on? Grant?


Holy crap... y'all are high

Isiah beat those Celtics before Dumars was even an all-star, but MJ can't beat them with prime Worthy?

What strain are you smoking bro and where can I get some

And MJ already won a game in 88' against the Pistons.. yet you're saying they "wouldn't get swept" with Worthy?... Again... dumb

Finally, Jordan nearly beat the Pistons in 89' and 90' with nothing from Pippen, yet he doesn't win with someone that completely dominated the Pistons?.. Again, that's just dumb

[Micku]

Holy crap... y'all are high

Isiah beat those Celtics before Dumars was even an all-star, but MJ can't beat them with prime Worthy?

What strain are you smoking bro and where can I get some

And MJ already won a game in 88' against the Pistons.. yet you're saying they "wouldn't get swept" with Worthy?

Y'all hella dumb

In 88, not in 87.

And the Pistons had a better overall team and a better coach than the Bulls did.

In 88, the Bulls would've done a better job against the Pistons I think. They let the other guys shoot. All they cared about is stopping MJ. Worthy would've made them pay. But I don't think it would've been enough to stop'em.

89 and 90 tho. That's different. It depends on who is on the team.

[ShawkFactory]

The transitive logic you're trying to use right now doesn't apply to basketball.

Pistons won in 6, but beat Celtics in 4, but lost to Lakers in 5, but beat the lakers in 4. So if you add Worthy to the Bulls they beat all of them.

Remember when the 2008 Celtics went to 7 against the 37-45 Hawks?

You're making worthless arguments.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The transitive logic you're trying to use right now doesn't apply to basketball. They're worthless arguments.

Right? Give AI Shaq in the late 90s-early 00s and they would've won multiple championships. Might have been a dynasty too!

:confusedshrug:

Nobody gives a shit about that, but this goofy bitch really thinks its insightful. And worth arguing over.

[3ball]

In 88, not in 87.

And the Pistons had a better overall team and a better coach than the Bulls did.

In 88, the Bulls would've done a better job against the Pistons I think. They let the other guys shoot. All they cared about is stopping MJ. Worthy would've made them pay. But I don't think it would've been enough to stop'em.

89 and 90 tho. That's different. It depends on who is on the team.


Considering that Jordan won a game in 88' without Worthy, it's pretty dumb to say "they wouldn't get swept" with Worthy"

That alone proves that your assessment is off

Giving Jordan another top 10 player in Worthy would absolutely beat the 88' Pistons and quite easily.

Regarding the 87' Celtics....... ditto...... giving Jordan a top 10 player would be similar to the help he had had with pippen, where he went 6/6 and didn't lose more than 2 consecutive games for 10 years

Carry on

[ShawkFactory]

Right? Give AI Shaq in the late 90s-early 00s and they would've won multiple championships. Might have been a dynasty too!

:confusedshrug:

Nobody gives a shit about that, but this goofy bitch really thinks its insightful. And worth arguing over.

It's more the logic of the Bulls losing to 6 to the Pistons in 89, who beat the Celtics in 6 in 88, meaning the Bulls would have beaten the Celtics in 87 with Worthy.

So dumb.

[3ball]

Right? Give AI Shaq in the late 90s-early 00s and they would've won multiple championships. Might have been a dynasty too!

:confusedshrug:

Nobody gives a shit about that, but this goofy bitch really thinks its insightful. And worth arguing over.


Yes but Jordan didn't have any help from 85-90'

Once he got less help than Shaq, Bird, or Magic had, he won much more than all of them

Pippen was nothing from 88-90' - that's the point.. meanwhile, guys like Worthy or Dominique were completely dominant, and would've won chips with Jordan

Heck, Dominique nearly beat the Celtics with no help, so Jordan kills them with a top 10 guy like Worthy

[Im so nba'd out]

Everyone knows Jordan runs away when the expectations get too high....quitting after his jr year,93,98,baseball,ect.

he would never play in a season coming off a 3peat....ever.....never ever.....he's not mentally strong enough.




He's a loser...and anyone who stans him is a loser too #notmyg.o.a.t

[Micku]

Considering that Jordan won a game in 88' without Worthy, it's pretty dumb to say "they wouldn't get swept" with Worthy"

That alone proves that your assessment is off

Giving Jordan another top 10 player in Worthy would absolutely beat the 88' Pistons and quite easily.

Regarding the 87' Celtics....... ditto...... giving Jordan a top 10 player would be similar to the help he had had with pippen, where he went 6/6 and didn't lose more than 2 consecutive games for 10 years

Carry on

I said they wouldn't get swept with the 87 Celtics. Not the 88 Pistons.

I think they could go all the way in maybe 89 or 90. Worthy would have to do more work than he did with the Lakers tho. And it depends on who is on the team.

And I don't know if they'll be able to beat the Pistons in 88. That team was trash outside of MJ in the playoffs against the Pistons. None of them could buy a shot in that series. Worthy would fix that, but I dunno it'll be enough.

[Manny98]

Holy crap... y'all are high

Isiah beat those Celtics before Dumars was even an all-star, but MJ can't beat them with prime Worthy?

What strain are you smoking bro and where can I get some

And MJ already won a game in 88' against the Pistons.. yet you're saying they "wouldn't get swept" with Worthy?... Again... dumb

Finally, Jordan nearly beat the Pistons in 89' and 90' with nothing from Pippen, yet he doesn't win with someone that completely dominated the Pistons?.. Again, that's just dumb
I'm talking about the 86 & 87 Celtics which even the bad boys couldn't beat.

I actually agree with you when you said that MJ and Worthy would likely have 4-peated from 88-91

But they're not beating the 67 win 86 Celtics

[AirBonner]

MJ couldn’t even win with prime Larry Houghes

[Axe]

Who's coaching them? Doug collins? Lmfao

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yes but Jordan didn't have any help from 85-90'

Once he got less help than Shaq, Bird, or Magic had, he won much more than all of them

Pippen was nothing from 88-90' - that's the point.. meanwhile, guys like Worthy or Dominique were completely dominant, and would've won chips with Jordan

Heck, Dominique nearly beat the Celtics with no help, so Jordan kills them with a top 10 guy like Worthy

Give Bron Wade A.K.A his "Pippen" from 05-on and they would have been a dynasty too.

Its not that intriguing or worth talking about. :oldlol: More like a no-brainer.

[Hey Yo]

Worthy would see his FGA cut in half and a 50% increase in setting screens.

[SouBeachTalents]

Give Bron Wade or his "Pippen" from 05-on and they would have been a dynasty too.

Its not that intriguing or worth talking about. :oldlol: More like a no-brainer.
Yep, not a surprise that the guys who had stacked teams from the beginning (Russell, Magic, Bird) all won multiple titles right away

[3ball]

Give Bron Wade A.K.A his "Pippen" from 05-on and they would have been a dynasty too.

Its not that intriguing or worth talking about. :oldlol: More like a no-brainer.


Lebron can't beat good teams by dominating the scoring load (scoring way more than sidekick) and never has, so he couldn't win with a player like Pippen

Lebron needs elite 1st options to play sidekick, so he can't win with pippen, whose peak scoring was only 22 ppg - that's an average peak scoring ability; nowhere near elite or what lebron needs..

lebron won with guys that averaged 22, but never with someone whose peak ability was 22

But carry on ignoring facts and believing your own version of reality.. just know that it's YOUR VERSION of reality.. the actual reality is much different (described above)

[Micku]

Yep, not a surprise that the guys who had stacked teams from the beginning (Russell, Magic, Bird) all won multiple titles right away

Naaw, it was more like they were the right fit at the right time. It wasn't like how KD joined a 73 win team. They weren't no championship contenders. But they all had nice talent.

[Hey Yo]

Pippen All NBA on both ends of the court for 5 of the 6 titles (without needing to load manage)

That's what you call elite.

[AirBonner]

Lebron can't beat good teams by dominating the scoring load (scoring way more than sidekick) and never has, so he couldn't win with a player like Pippen

Lebron needs elite 1st options to play sidekick, so he can't win with pippen, whose peak scoring was only 22 ppg - that's an average peak scoring ability; nowhere near elite or what lebron needs..

lebron won with guys that averaged 22, but never with someone whose peak ability was 22

But carry on ignoring facts and believing your own version of reality.. just know that it's YOUR VERSION of reality.. the actual reality is much different (described above)

MJ couldn’t win without an equal defensive sidekick

[SouBeachTalents]

Naaw, it was more like they were the right fit at the right time. It wasn't like how KD joined a 73 win team. They weren't no championship contenders. But they all had nice talent.
Lol, definitely wouldn't equate it with KD, but it's not a coincidence those guys all had 3+ titles in their first 7 years while the vast majority of the top 10 were at 0 or 1

[Micku]

But yeah. I don't see the Bulls winning in 87. I doubt they'll beat the Celts. And the Lakers awaiting for them in the finals with Magic having his MVP year? Naw.

88, I don' think so. But Worthy definitely take the load off of MJ, and he needed that in that series. None of his teammates could make a shot. Outside of 87, this will be his hardest shot. It really depends on how Worthy could punish them if the Pistons would triple team MJ again.

89, his team outside of MJ is still lacking, but his playoff run was amazing. The Pistons did the same thing as they did in 88, so it depends on how Worthy could punish them.

90, I believe they are going to the finals. I think they'll win.

91, win.

[3ball]

I said they wouldn't get swept with the 87 Celtics





So Jordan almost beat the 86' Celtics in Game 2, but the 87' Celtics would sweep jordan AND worthy?

Huh?

Again, your radar/guage of this scenario is off and you're essentially underrating worthy AND jordan






I think they could go all the way in maybe 89 or 90.





The Bulls had the #19 defense in 1990, and #11 in 1989.

Yet they nearly beat the Pistons with nothing from Pippen both years

So how do they not easily win with someone in place of Pippen that completely DOMINATES the pistons like Worthy did?

Again, your radar is off and you're disrespecting MJ and Worthy






Worthy would have to do more work than he did with the Lakers tho.


.


Worthy was #1 option on back-to-back champs over Kareem and Magic (more than pippen ever did):



PLAYOFFS

* 87' Worthy...... 24 on 59%
* 88' Worthy...... 21 on 53% (FMVP)
* 89' Worthy...... 25 on 57%
* 90' Worthy...... 24 on 53%
* 91' Worthy...... 20 on 49%

* Lakers' scoring leader


Otoh, Pippen averaged 10 on 40% against the 89' Pistons and 16 on 42% against the 90' Pistons

So what are you talking about by saying Worthy would need to do more? He was already #1 option over Magic/Kareem, so that's already more than pippen ever did!!

[Micku]

So Jordan almost beat the 86' Celtics in Game 2, but the 87' Celtics would sweep jordan AND worthy?

Huh?

Again, your radar/guage of this scenario is off and you're essentially underrating worthy AND jordan


Okay, look. I said this a few times already, but I don't think you are getting me.

I said wouldn't sweep. Would not sweep. Meaning, the Bulls, with a hypothetical Worthy and MJ, would win a game at the very least.

[3ball]

Okay, look. I said this a few times already, but I don't think you are getting me.

I said wouldn't sweep. Would not sweep. Meaning, the Bulls, with a hypothetical Worthy and MJ, would win a game at the very least.


Again, it's dumb to think MJ/Worthy might win a game, when MJ basically won a game without Worthy against the better 86' team

So you're simply underrating MJ and Worthy and now you're trying to make it not look so bad

Heck, Isiah/Dumars nearly beat the Celtics before Dumars was an all-star, but MJ/Worthy might get swept according to you.. so you're simply off on this one

And you said Worthy would need to "do more" than he did on the Lakers, even though Worthy was #1 option (more than pippen ever did)

Finally, the Bulls had the #19 defense in 1990, and #11 in 1989... Yet they nearly beat the Pistons with nothing from Pippen both years... So how do they not easily win with someone in place of Pippen that completely DOMINATES the pistons like Worthy did?

[3ball]

Basically Micky - you ignore facts and believe what you want

You can't respond with facts or solid comps like I do

Carry on.. I can only respond to bias for so long

[Micku]

Again, it's dumb to think MJ/Worthy might win a game, when MJ basically won a game without Worthy against the better 86' team

So you're simply underrating MJ and Worthy and now you're trying to make it not look so bad

Heck, Isiah/Dumars nearly beat the Celtics before Dumars was an all-star, but MJ/Worthy might get swept according to you.. so you're simply off on this one

And you said Worthy would need to "do more" than he did on the Lakers, even though Worthy was #1 option (more than pippen ever did)

I didn't say might. I said they would win a game. That there is no way the game is gonn'a be a sweep. You've been confusing what I said all throughout this thread. Like you quote me, but saying the complete opposite what I said. Like a poster that only sees what he wants to see. Calm down man.

And Worthy does need to do more. There were more scoring options on the Lakers. More opposition team have to worry about. Kareem and more shooters. On the Bulls you didn't have that. You only had MJ. And he carried that team offensively and defensively in the 80s. It was picking your poison to double on the Lakers. They double team off of Magic, and he'll score or find someone. Underrated shooter imo. So, naturally, he'll have to do more than what he did with the Lakers. Score more. He's capable.

You double team on MJ, it's a win. Double team on of Magic or Worthy? There are still plenty of options.

[3ball]

I didn't say might. I said they would win a game. That there is no way the game is gonn'a be a sweep. You've been confusing what I said all throughout this thread. Like you quote me, but saying the complete opposite what I said. Like a poster that only sees what he wants to see. Calm down man.

And Worthy does need to do more. There were more scoring options on the Lakers. More opposition team have to worry about. Kareem and more shooters. On the Bulls you didn't have that. You only had MJ. And he carried that team offensively and defensively in the 80s. It was picking your poison to double on the Lakers. They double team off of Magic, and he'll score or find someone. Underrated shooter imo. So, naturally, he'll have to do more than what he did with the Lakers. Score more. He's capable.


Worthy averaged 24 on 59% in the 87' Playoffs while winning the title (lakers' 1st option)

How would he need to score more on the bulls when jordan won 6 without ever having that kind of help?

[3ball]

Worthy averaged 24 on 59% in the 87' Playoffs while winning the title (lakers' 1st option)

How would he need to score more on the bulls when jordan won 6 without ever having that kind of help?


Micku?

[3ball]

Micku?


He ran

[RRR3]

He ran
Forgot to switch alts?

[3ball]

Forgot to switch alts?


My alt would never twist himself into a contradictory argument by saying Worthy would need to score MORE alongside MJ than he did alongside Magic (he already averaged more alongside Magic than any MJ sidekick)

[Micku]

Worthy averaged 24 on 59% in the 87' Playoffs while winning the title (lakers' 1st option)

How would he need to score more on the bulls when jordan won 6 without ever having that kind of help?

He possibly could average that the whole season, which is what I'm alluding to. I dunno about the FG%. As you may know, there are times where there is a bunch of offensive talent on teams, the FG% would naturally improve as well. The Bulls weren't as talented as the Lakers. But MJ could take away the defensive pressure.

But I think you would agree that James Worthy would have to work more on the Bulls.

1. The Bulls didn't play as high of a pace.
The Bulls were last in pace in 87 and 88. They were one of the last in 89. Dallas and Pistons were lower I believe. While the Lakers did not play the highest pace in the league, they definitely were the kings of the fastbreak. Them and the Celts I believe. But we need numbers to back up the Celts, the Lakers are more known for it.

While you could still execute well in the fast break with a slow pace, I think it's safe to assume the Lakers did the fastbreak more often and had easier buckets. And not just that. The Lakers had more versatility with their play because the talent allowed it. Magic and Worthy could post or run you out of the gym. Kareem could too. Shooters to spread the floor if need be (spacing for the era).

2. Lakers had better role players.

Bulls in 87-89 weren't great at all in terms of role players. They had Oakley for 3 years, but that's it. Meanwhile the Lakers had like 3 all-stars on the regular. A great sixth man and DPOY winner in Michael Cooper.

James Worthy, as good as he was, had a great cast. Top to bottom. Similar to all the great teams in the 80s. And you are putting on the Bulls alongside with MJ, which is great. But they have nobody else. Of course he's gonn'a do more work. He might score more too or at the very least, take more shots in the regular season and to the playoffs. I dunno if his FG% will be the same tho.

[SATAN]

doesn't know basketball or history

Jordan nearly beat the Pistons with no sidekick in 89' and 90', so he would destroy them with "Piston-killer" James Worthy.

Worthy was #1 option on the 87' and 88' Lakers over Magic/Kareem, so he played better than Pippen ever did.. Pippen was just the low-producing bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

Btw, Worthy would've 7-peated with MJ from 85-91' - Worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals and dominated his first Playoffs more than Pippen ever did

Shut the **** up bitch

[2much_knowledge]

I agree on 88, 89 and 90. Not 87 tho. Would have been a war for sure but in 87 i still see the Celts edging out a tough 6 game series. Mj with worthy and a coach preaching ball movement had a pretty good chance to beat the pistons in 88, 89, 90. But i respect the bad boys, maybe chicago 2 - 1 in those 3 years. From 90 to 93, we would have to see if worthy or someone else would fill that gap on defense

[3ball]

I agree on 88, 89 and 90.

Not 87 tho.





the assumption is that Worthy isn't being dropped onto the 87' Bulls cold turkey - he gets to grow with MJ and the team like Pippen did

A Jordan/Worthy lineup is ridiculously easy to build around - both are highly-assisted players (off-ball) and both are literally the best and quickest iso players in the league.

So that roster wouldn't look the same, and any cast would be tremendously elevated from opponents doubling Jordan and Worthy.. people don't realize that Worthy was top 5 for commanding doubles.

So assuming Jordan/Worthy had a couple years together prior to 87', they beat the Celtics.. Heck, they'd have 2 of the 3 best players on both teams

[Micku]

the assumption is that Worthy isn't being dropped onto the 87' Bulls cold turkey - he gets to grow with MJ and the team like Pippen did

A Jordan/Worthy lineup is ridiculously easy to build around - both are highly-assisted players (off-ball) and both are literally the best and quickest iso players in the league.

So that roster wouldn't look the same, and any cast would be tremendously elevated from opponents doubling Jordan and Worthy.. people don't realize that Worthy was top 5 for commanding doubles.

So assuming Jordan/Worthy had a couple years together prior to 87', they beat the Celtics.. Heck, they'd have 2 of the 3 best players on both teams

I don't think Worthy was better than Mchale that year in the regular season. Playoffs maybe cuz of the broken foot. But it's a wash imo.

But MJ/Worthy/Oakley is a nice combo ngl.

[Axe]

I don't think Worthy was better than Mchale that year in the regular season. Playoffs maybe cuz of the broken foot. But it's a wash imo.

But MJ/Worthy/Oakley is a nice combo ngl.
It's useless to argue with 1-9ball because he is too blind and deaf towards others who don't have similar agenda like he does

[clipps]

You really think rookie Jordan & Worthy are beating the Celtics & Lakers :oldlol:

Jordan and Worthy were 3 and 5 year pros in 1987 you p*nis breath.

[3ball]

.
If Pippen is truly superior to Worthy, show me a playoff series where he played better than these series of Worthy:



1985 WCF...'... 23 on 72% (no typo)
1985 Finals.... 24 on 56%

1987 ECF....... 31 on 60%

1988 WCF...... 23/6/5/2/1 on 59%
1988 Finals.... MVP


Where did Pippen play this well?.. it's not even close

Worthy averaged 31 on 60% and destroyed prime X-man in the 87' WCF, whereas Pippen averaged 16 on 40% and got destroyed by old X-man in 92' ECSF

Why can't Pippen fans point to specific series where he dominated?.. oh wait... He never dominated because he had a lesser "draymond" type of role.. a glue guy (a role player role, not a "dominator" role like Worthy or Pau or Kyrie)

[clipps]

.
If Pippen is truly superior to Worthy, show me a playoff series where he played better than these series of Worthy:



1985 WCF...'... 23 on 72% (no typo)
1985 Finals.... 24 on 56%

1987 ECF....... 31 on 60%

1988 WCF...... 23/6/5/2/1 on 59%
1988 Finals.... MVP


Where did Pippen play this well?.. it's not even close

Worthy averaged 31 on 60% and destroyed prime X-man in the 87' WCF, whereas Pippen averaged 16 on 40% and got destroyed by old X-man in 92' ECSF

Why can't Pippen fans point to specific series where he dominated?.. oh wait... He never dominated because he had a lesser "draymond" type of role.. a glue guy (a role player role)

When Pippen finally had the chance to be the man, Phil gave the ball to Kukoc for the final shot:lol.

[3ball]

When Pippen finally had the chance to be the man, Phil gave the ball to Kukoc for the final shot:lol.


:yaohappy:

Kukoc led the Bulls in BPM for the 94' Playoffs and Pippen was 4th on the team in WS/48 - so Pippen simply wasn't a #1 option......... even when he was #1 option!!!! lol

When he went to Houston at 33 years old, he was instantly demoted to 3rd option behind 36 year old Hakeem and Barkley.. With Pippen at 3rd option, those Rockets were more stacked than any Bulls team, but lost in the 1st Round... Indeed, only MJ could win with Pippen..

Heck, Lebron played exactly like Pippen in the 11' Finals (18/7/6 and frightened in the clutch) - but again, only Jordan can win with that crap (pippen)

[And1AllDay]

mike couldnt even get a 1st round win without pip, never mind a finals :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan and Worthy were 3 and 5 year pros in 1987 you p*nis breath.
Huh? He clearly says in the OP they'd 7 peat from '85-'91, read more carefully next time ya dumb bitch

[3ball]

Huh? He clearly says in the OP they'd 7 peat from '85-'91, read more carefully next time ya dumb bitch


Rookie MJ was already a top 4 player in the league

Give him another top 10 player like Worthy that has great fundamentals (similar to MJ, aka off-ball, post, quick iso) and it's a wrap

Worthy averaged 24 on 72% in the 85' WCF

[3ball]

Rookie MJ was already a top 4 player in the league

Give him another top 10 player like Worthy that has great fundamentals (similar to MJ, aka off-ball, post, quick iso) and it's a wrap

Worthy averaged 24 on 72% in the 85' WCF, so that's better than pippen played in his career and obviously enough for MJ (6/6)





^^ just pointing out for the record that SouBeach ran from this post after implying "rookie" Jordan was some kind of non-goat or something that would need abnormal levels of help

okay thread can die now

[3ball]

.
Stats versus X-man

87' Worthy WCF..... 31 on 60%
87'. X-man WCF..... 25 on 50% (prime x-man)

92' Pippen ECSF..... 16 on 40%
92' X-man ECSF...... 19 on 50% (old x-man)


MJ could've 3-peated with X-man... :confusedshrug:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif


^^^ Pippen's trashy play is the only reason the Bulls nearly lost that series

And this is standard - anytime a series was close or lost, Pippen's poor play was the reason..

for example, he averaged 12 on 42% against the 88-90' Pistons - no one could beat a dynasty with that trash...

He averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals, including 11 on 27% in Games 3-5 when the Sonics' were coming back.. He averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, including big eggs in the 97' ECF, 98' ECF, and 96-98' Finals.. he averaged 10 on 40% against the #1 SRS Cavs in 1989, thus forcing Jordan to perform the goat clutch upset.

Ultimately, pippen was never the #1 option on back-to-back champs like Worthy was in 87' and 88'.. but despite his inferior performance to Worthy, Pippen gets more credit because he was on the only 2-star dynasty and didn't share shine with 3rd and 4th stars like Worthy.. Pippen was simply the low-producing bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

[SouBeachTalents]

^^ just pointing out for the record that SouBeach ran from this post after implying "rookie" Jordan was some kind of non-goat or something that would need abnormal levels of help

okay thread can die now
Rookie Jordan got outscored by Terry Cummings, no chance in hell he's beating the Celtics & Lakers, no matter what delusional shit you tell yourself :lol

[3ball]

Rookie Jordan got outscored by Terry Cummings, no chance in hell he's beating the Celtics & Lakers, no matter what delusional shit you tell yourself :lol


Jordan averaged 29/6/8 in that series - he didn't wet the bed like Lebron's many debacles

Jordan was a top player that would never lose with the same help that Isiah, Bird, or Magic had

Magic and Isiah concede that Jordan's Bulls had a weaker cast, but that Jordan alone made up the gap:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s

[2much_knowledge]

mike couldnt even get a 1st round win without pip, never mind a finals :oldlol:

He did in 88. Pippen did nothing. Pippen wasn't good enough to make the all rookie team.

Shut up and move on

[dankok8]

I think the Bulls could have won a few. 4-peat is too much. Showtime Lakers and Bad Boys would have taken them out a time or two.

Worthy has to be one of the more underrated players in history.

[3ball]

I think the Bulls could have won a few. 4-peat is too much. Showtime Lakers and Bad Boys would have taken them out a time or two.

Worthy has to be one of the more underrated players in history.



PLAYOFFS

* 87' Worthy...... 24 on 59%
* 88' Worthy...... 21 on 53% (FMVP)
* 89' Worthy...... 25 on 57%
* 90' Worthy...... 24 on 53%
* 91' Worthy...... 20 on 49%

* Lakers' scoring leader


The Bulls win from 89-91' with Worthy because they were already nearly winning with nothing from Pippen - so the goat dominance that Worthy had (shown above) would surely beat the Pistons in place of Pippen's 10 on 40% (89'), or 16 on 42% (90')

Worthy was the "Piston-killer" - he owned and dominated the Pistons and Celtics, just like MJ did - those teams wouldn't know how to face 2 athletic wings at the same time - that was the allure of mj/pip (2 athletic wings coming at you) and Worthy/MJ would bring the same unstoppable dynamic, except far more potent offensively.

[light]

OP is making a fool of himself even more than usual on this one.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-All-League.pnghttps://s4.gifyu.com/images/worthy-alll-league.png

[SouBeachTalents]

In fairness to Worthy they didn't have an All-NBA 3rd team until the '89 season. But even if you take away Pippen's 3rd teams, he still has more than double Worthy's selections

[Hey Yo]

PLAYOFFS

* 87' Worthy...... 24 on 59%
* 88' Worthy...... 21 on 53% (FMVP)
* 89' Worthy...... 25 on 57%
* 90' Worthy...... 24 on 53%
* 91' Worthy...... 20 on 49%

* Lakers' scoring leader


The Bulls win from 89-91' with Worthy because they were already nearly winning with nothing from Pippen - so the goat dominance that Worthy had (shown above) would surely beat the Pistons in place of Pippen's 10 on 40% (89'), or 16 on 42% (90')

Worthy was the "Piston-killer" - he owned and dominated the Pistons and Celtics, just like MJ did - those teams wouldn't know how to face 2 athletic wings at the same time - that was the allure of mj/pip (2 athletic wings coming at you) and Worthy/MJ would bring the same unstoppable dynamic, except far more potent offensively.

LOL @ thinking Worthy still puts up those numbers while getting his FGA attempts cut in half by MJ.

[3ball]

LOL @ thinking Worthy still puts up those numbers while getting his FGA attempts cut in half by MJ.


You misunderstand

Lebron's skillset is heavily weighted towards ball-dominance, so he doesn't fit with certain guys and therefore craters certain guys

Otoh, Jordan's diverse on-ball and off-ball skillset fit with everyone - so everyone took a 1-2 point haircut when he came back in 95' and therefore played to 90% capacity alongside him.. it was an equitable reduction across the board (optimal), whereas lebron craters stars (suboptimal)

[Axe]

You misunderstand

Lebron's skillset doesn't fit with certain guys and therefore craters certain guys, whereas Jordan's superior skillset fit with everyone, so everyone took a 1-2 point haircut when he came back in 1995 and therefore played to 95% capacity alongside him
You say everyone but nothing significant happened during his years with the wizards :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

You say everyone but nothing significant happened during his years with the wizards :confusedshrug:


Jordan was old.. no one considers his play at 38-40 years old a reflection of his prime capability

Ultimately, Jordan allowed an equitable reduction across the board (optimal), whereas lebron craters stars (suboptimal)..

lebron craters certain guys because his skills are limited (no off-ball, so he can't fit forwards or sub-par shooting ball-handlers, aka Hughes, Ingram, Wade, Bosh, Love, etc)

[Axe]

Jordan was old.. no one considers his play at 38-40 years old a reflection of his prime capability

Ultimately, Jordan allowed an equitable reduction across the board (optimal), whereas lebron craters stars (suboptimal)
You say no one but he still preferred to be the perennial ballhog he is to his younger peers in dc, despite his age back then. :confusedshrug:

[Micku]

OP is making a fool of himself even more than usual on this one.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-All-League.pnghttps://s4.gifyu.com/images/worthy-alll-league.png

I know this is a like a troll bait for 3ball.

To be fair, Pippen wouldn't have made those all nba 1st team in the 80s probably. There was no 3rd all nba team till like 89. And the competition was high. He ain't getting over Bird and he would have to compete with Barkley with his best years in the 80s, Karl Malone or Mchale for a bit. In the early 80s Dr. J and Wilkins at his peak. The 80s was stacked with talent. The fact that Worthy only got 3rd team shows how stacked it was with the top tier talent.

You can make a comment on how weak the 90s were in compared to the 80s, but that's true in almost every era. The 80s had like the GOATs or arguable GOATs in almost every position. Most of them were in their prime. He'll be great defensively and definitely win some 1st teams, but in some years he gott'a compete with Bobby Jones, Rodman, Mchale at his peak, Paul Pressey and etc. It'll be fierce. Pippen would win those 1st teams more often than not in his prime.

[3ball]

I know this is a like a troll bait for 3ball.

To be fair, Pippen wouldn't have made those all nba 1st team in the 80s probably. There was no 3rd all nba team till like 89. And the competition was high. He ain't getting over Bird and he would have to compete with Barkley with his best years in the 80s, Karl Malone or Mchale for a bit. In the early 80s Dr. J and Wilkins at his peak. The 80s was stacked with talent. The fact that Worthy only got 3rd team shows how stacked it was with the top tier talent.

You can make a comment on how weak the 90s were in compared to the 80s, but that's true in almost every era. The 80s had like the GOATs or arguable GOATs in almost every position. Most of them were in their prime. He'll be great defensively and definitely win some 1st teams, but in some years he gott'a compete with Bobby Jones, Rodman, Mchale at his peak, Paul Pressey and etc. It'll be fierce. Pippen would win those 1st teams more often than not in his prime.


The only reason Pippen got all-nba over Hill was because of the winning spotlight (jordan) - everyone thought Grant Hill was a sleeker, advanced version of Pippen and infact comparable to Jordan, not Pippen.

These are the facts regardless of any trolling you want to do in response.. Hill > Pippen.. ditto Penny.. Pippen was mainly a defender and was routinely outplayed by fringe stars like Schrempf, Mashburn, Glenn Robinson, Mullin - basically everyone because it wasn't hard to outdo pippen's sub-par production rate.

Btw, Worthy was only 3rd team because of the stacked comp at SF in the 80's - you're right about that - so that means pippen isn't all-nba at all in the 80's... he's literally a role player defender that didn't fit into the scoring-oriented, iso 80's.

Finally, no one considers pippen on Barkley's level.. he's nowhere near Barkley, Malone, or any "1st option Finals guy", which is how I describe the top players of the 90's - they were all 1st options on Finals teams, aka Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Jordan, Ewing, Hakeem, Drexler - this is the top tier of the 90's and Pippen isn't on their level.

[TheCorporation]

OP is making a fool of himself even more than usual on this one.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/Pippen-All-League.pnghttps://s4.gifyu.com/images/worthy-alll-league.png

Well that's a wrap boys and girls. Close it up and pack it out.

[3ball]

Well that's a wrap boys and girls. Close it up and pack it out.


All-nba awards are decided by Rachel Nichols and other Joe the Plumbers whose groupthink favors winners - and in previous eras, there were no advanced stats, so no one knew Pippen sucked.. but in today's statistical era, pippen would be correctly viewed as a defender role player

More importantly, Pippen was among the worst playoff performers ever - he would never be an all-star if it was based on Playoffs (maybe in 91' and 92' but that's it)

He never dominated a series - think about that - otoh, Worthy was literally the best player for an entire Playoffs and FMVP.. guys like KJ, Reggie Lewis and others thoroughly dominated series and were the best player in many series

[TheCorporation]

All-nba awards are decided by Rachel Nichols and other Joe the Plumbers whose groupthink favors winners - and in previous eras, there were no advanced stats, so no one knew Pippen sucked.. but in today's statistical era, pippen would be correctly viewed as a defender role player

More importantly, Pippen was among the worst playoff performers ever - he would never be an all-star if it was based on Playoffs (maybe in 91' and 92' but that's it)

He never dominated a series - think about that - otoh, Worthy was literally the best player for an entire Playoffs and FMVP.. guys like KJ, Reggie Lewis and others thoroughly dominated series and were the best player in many series


Bro, YOU are "Rachel Nichols." You are Joe the Plumber...Not them. You're a casual moron. Get a grip.

[3ball]

Bro, YOU are "Rachel Nichols." You are Joe the Plumber...Not them. You're a casual moron. Get a grip.


They're journalism majors and have no knowledge of basketball more than you or me

The only people that aren't casual fans are the players, coaches, and certainly the team executives that draft players and make trades.

Secondly, there were no advanced stats in previous eras, so no one knew Pippen sucked.. but in today's statistical era, pippen would be correctly viewed as a defender role player

Finally, all-nba is a regular season award, which means little because Pippen was among the worst playoff performers ever - he would never be an all-star if it was based on Playoffs (maybe in 91' and 92' but that's it.. his 2.0 BPM in the 93' Playoffs is the lowest ever for a winning sidekick and not all-star caliber, while his 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs isn't all-star caliber either, aka horrible in 3 straight Finals and 2 ECF).

He never dominated a series - think about that - whereas Worthy was FMVP over all the goats and the leading scorer on back-to-back champs.... guys like KJ, Reggie Lewis and others thoroughly dominated series and were the best player in many series.. whereas pippen played like Robert Horry in the 95' Finals - that's standard Pippen caliber.

[AirBonner]

Thread cliffs: MJ couldn’t win without Pippen.

[3ball]

Thread cliffs: MJ couldn’t win without Pippen.


Pippen had low peak scoring average (half the league could match it) - so he was a 2nd option and therefore inferior to elite 1st options that played sidekick like Wade, AD, Kyrie, Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, McHale, Worthy, etc, etc

2nd option < 1st option

:confusedshrug:

[AirBonner]

Pippen had low peak scoring average (half the league could match it) - so he was a 2nd option and therefore inferior to elite 1st options that played sidekick like Wade, AD, Kyrie, Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, McHale, Worthy, etc, etc

2nd option < 1st option
:confusedshrug:

So how did MJ do without Pippen?

[3ball]

So how did MJ do without Pippen?


That was his first couple healthy years, where he did better than lebron did in his first couple years (lottery)... And better than KD, Curry, Giannis and most young players do

[TheCorporation]

Thread cliffs: MJ couldn’t win without Pippen.

5 years, nothing

Maybe if he had six years he could get a 1st round win?

[dankok8]

What does prime Pippen being better than prime Worthy have to do with the thread? Worthy was the better player from 1988-1990 and in the first two of those years significantly better. MJ wouldn't 4 peat with Worthy but I think he would have won like 2 rings. That's a very reasonable prediction.

[TheCorporation]

What does prime Pippen being better than prime Worthy have to do with the thread? Worthy was the better player from 1988-1990 and in the first two of those years significantly better. MJ wouldn't 4 peat with Worthy but I think he would have won like 2 rings. That's a very reasonable prediction.

:cheers: Reasonable post.

[Micku]

What does prime Pippen being better than prime Worthy have to do with the thread? Worthy was the better player from 1988-1990 and in the first two of those years significantly better. MJ wouldn't 4 peat with Worthy but I think he would have won like 2 rings. That's a very reasonable prediction.

What year you think tho?

I think in 88 and 89, MJ carried those teams. Even though in 89, he carried that team in the playoffs, they performed a better than in 88. But in 88 the Bulls team were "better" but that's mostly due to MJ dominating.

Even with Worthy tho, I doubt they'll win in 87. I still think they won't beat the 87 Celts. I'm not sure they'll win in 88. Maybe. I think they could win 89, 90 and 91.

But I say this, without really thinking that the Lakers won't have James Worthy. And how would a Oakley/MJ/Worthy be like?

[TheGoatest]

To be fair, Pippen wouldn't have made those all nba 1st team in the 80s probably.

So Pippen's All-NBA feats in the 80s wouldn't have been any different than Jordan's championship/Finals MVP feats in the 80s then?

[Micku]

So Pippen's All-NBA feats in the 80s wouldn't have been any different than Jordan's championship/Finals MVP feats in the 80s then?

Y'mean compared to the 90s? Like could MJ win those chips in the 80s?

Probably. Who knows. He'll definitely have more competition in the 80s. I'm guessing he won't go 6/6. But who knows. It's different to assess because that is about the quality team and how much MJ/Pippen could impact the team than individual talent. Like could the 96 Bulls beat the 86 Celts? Could the 93 Bulls beat the 83 Sixers? Could the 97 Bulls beat the 87 Lakers? The 80s teams would definitely give the Bulls a challenge too. But that's par for the course. The 80s had some of the best teams of all time. Probably more than any decade. It'll give most championship teams a challenge.

But with individual talent? That is more easy than teams imo in this case.

I don't see Pippen making those all nba teams in the 80s. It was just too stacked. Like if Worthy could barely make it, you know it's stacked. It's not shame tho. It's like whoever was the 1st team all nba center from 07-17 won't make it in the 90s. Centers was too stacked. They may not make it in the 80s either with Kareem, Hakeem, Moses, and Parish.

[3ball]

What does prime Pippen being better than prime Worthy have to do with the thread? Worthy was the better player from 1988-1990 and in the first two of those years significantly better. MJ wouldn't 4 peat with Worthy but I think he would have won like 2 rings. That's a very reasonable prediction.


If Pippen is anywhere near as good as you guys think he was, then Jordan isn't goat.. because you guys essentially think that mj only wins 6 with Pippen.

Do you realize that everyone in history that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals?.. But Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only mj could win 3 with Pippen.. so Jordan won in spite of Pippen's weaker help.. if mj had a FMVP teammate like everyone else, he would've won much more than 6 (he would've won some rings from 85-90')

Yet you're saying that Jordan might win 2 rings with Worthy?.. How is he not a lock to win with Worthy from. 89-91', when he nearly won with nothing from Pippen in 89' and 90'?

Worthy completely dominated the Pistons and Celtics, while Pippen never did anything

What game are you watching?

Worthy dominated many series as the best player - pippen never dominated

Durant is a better sidekick than draymond and that's similar to Worthy and Pippen... Durant is better than Worthy but the analogy holds - dominator role > draymond role

Ultimately, the only argument that Pippen has over Worthy is all-nba accolades, otherwise Worthy played far better in the playoffs.. Worthy dominated multiple dynasties while pippen played a lesser "draymond" role.

pippen was destroyed by old X-man, while Worthy destroyed prime X-man.. there's countless examples of this..

[Micku]

Yet you're saying that Jordan might win 2 rings with Worthy?.. How is he not a lock to win with Worthy from. 89-91', when he nearly won with nothing from Pippen in 89' and 90'?



He said would.

There's a difference between might and would.

Example:
MJ and Hakeem would win 8 rings.

MJ and Hakeem might win 8 rings. Less certainty.

Better example:
If you touch that fire. You would get burn.

That's different than: If you touch that fire, you might get burn.

Would is the past tense of will. Might is of may.

[Shooter]

Should we give MJ one more year to make it six total without Pippen to see if he can get out of the 1st round?

[dankok8]

What year you think tho?

I think in 88 and 89, MJ carried those teams. Even though in 89, he carried that team in the playoffs, they performed a better than in 88. But in 88 the Bulls team were "better" but that's mostly due to MJ dominating.

Even with Worthy tho, I doubt they'll win in 87. I still think they won't beat the 87 Celts. I'm not sure they'll win in 88. Maybe. I think they could win 89, 90 and 91.

But I say this, without really thinking that the Lakers won't have James Worthy. And how would a Oakley/MJ/Worthy be like?

Lakers keep Worthy or get a similar level player.

I too think 87 and 88 would be very tough. Worthy would be a huge upgrade for the Bulls but going through at least two of Celtics/Pistons/Lakers in those years would be very tough. Even MJ with a really good 2nd option and an average roster would have a hard time beating two teams in a row with 4-5 all-star caliber players which those teams were.

89 though different story. Celtics are gone from contention with Bird injured. Lakers still made the Finals but both Magic and Scott were hurt in the Finals so the Bulls would have been easy favorites to beat them. Ditto for 1990 where Bulls would be favored over the Blazers. But I still think beating the Pistons in both 89 and 90 would be tough. I think a split where Bulls get one and Pistons get another is reasonable.

And of course Bulls win in 1991 with Worthy.

So overall 2 rings with Worthy from 1987-1991 is what I expect. Before 1991 the rest of the Bulls roster wasn't strong.