In previous eras, 20 ppg usually meant you were good.. Nowadays, it means nothing

[3ball]

36 guys average 20 points today, versus 14 in 1998

And 98' was the modern game with a comparable amount of perimeter wings and modern play, including all-stars like:

Grant Hill
Penny
Kobe
Duncan
Garnett
Kidd
Drexler
Pippen
Garnett
Hakeem
David Robinson
Shaq
Payton
Kemp
MVP Jordan


So don't use the excuse that there wasn't sufficient talent because the aforementioned players probably represent MORE talent than today's game - heck, Mitch Richmond currently leads today's league in scoring (beal)

So today's game is simply softer than a grape - a spaced-out, hands-off beginner format.. that's why league offensive rating reached record highs in each of the last 5 seasons

[light]

20 ppg is still a significant threshold to cross and that number is still an incentive in contracts.

If Kyle Kuzma averaged 20 ppg Lakers fans would be over the moon.

There are a ton of young guys with potential that fans are wishing and hoping would average 20 ppg to legitimize them, and then you go up from there - 25 ppg is another level and so on.

[SouBeachTalents]

The majority of the players you listed were several years before or past their primes in '98

[Axe]

Well today's era is superior compared to the past

[Airupthere]

Kyle Anderson is a prime example that basketball pre 2010s is obsolete. Kyle would obliterate competition in the 80s, 90s, 2000s with ease. Sprewell would look like a weakling playing in today's league.

[light]

1998 was not a modern game. The pace was still a lot slower and of course there was no zone.

The pace in 1998 was 90.3.
The pace in 2020 was 100.3.

You still didn't have to be a good shooter to score a lot in 1998.

Almost all of the high scorers this year are good three point shooters. Curry, Beal, Murray, Jokic, VanVleet, Embiid, LeBron, LaVine, Harden, Lillard.

It's more difficult to score today because of the zones, so if you transplanted those players from 1998 they wouldn't be able to score like they were used to unless they improved their 3 point shooting.

[3ball]

1998 was not a modern game. The pace was still a lot slower and of course there was no zone.

The pace in 1998 was 90.3.
The pace in 2020 was 100.3.

You still didn't have to be a good shooter to score a lot in 1998.

Almost all of the high scorers this year are good three point shooters. Curry, Beal, Murray, Jokic, VanVleet, Embiid, LeBron, LaVine, Harden, Lillard.

It's more difficult to score today because of the zones, so if you transplanted those players from 1998 they wouldn't be able to score like they were used to unless they improved their 3 point shooting.


Pace was faster in the 80's so pace has nothing to do with being "modern".. that's a purely ignorant take

Furthermore, the league MVP (Giannis) is literally a beginner jumpshooter - he looks like a beginner every time.. it's embarrassing

And Westbrook led the league in scoring with zero jumper

So good jumpshooting isn't needed to today because the spacing means there's no help defender on half of drives, according to ESPN, even for the league's best driver (Giannis)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtOOQ43yw4&t=05m42s


The open lane prevents the need for jumpshooting, whereas the paint was packed in previous eras, so good mid-range shooting over the packed paints was required to be a good scorer - the toughest, most skilled shots (contested mid-range) was required to be a good scorer in the no-spacing eras

[FireDavidKahn]

The overall skill level is just higher.

It isn't just a few top end talents anymore.

[3ball]

The overall skill level is just higher.

It isn't just a few top end talents anymore.


The role players are the guys taking the most threes/layups, so they suck the most - there's tons of 3-point robots in today's game that wouldn't make the league in previous eras when threes weren't used as a primary strategy.. the eras that required the toughest and most skilled shots (iso's, contested mid-range) > today's threes and open layups skillset (beginner skillset).

Ultimately, today's players shoot threes and in-stride layups because the spacing and hands-off format allows it (beginner format) - they suck anytime there's actual traffic and contested shot-making - see the league MVP look helpless when the paint gets marginally clogged in the playoffs - it's an embarrassment and an indictment on the weak skillset that today's format produces.

otoh, contested shots were required on most possessions in the no-spacing eras of the past, so each player had to develop their own individually-unique way to score ON defenders... that's why players in previous eras had one-of-a-kind styles (aka jamaal wilkes, mcadoo, etc) and today's players all have the same style like identical robots that are stopped by contests (harrison barnes, lebron, draymond)... But their in-stride layups and elgin-steps on a spaced-out court look cool and "skilled" though!!! .. lol

[FireDavidKahn]

The role players are the guys taking the most threes/layups, so they suck the most - there's tons of 3-point robots in today's game that wouldn't make the league in previous eras when threes weren't used as a primary strategy.. the eras that required the toughest and most skilled shots (iso's, contested mid-range) > today's threes and open layups skillset (beginner skillset).

Ultimately, today's players shoot threes and in-stride layups because the spacing and hands-off format allows it (beginner format) - they suck anytime there's actual traffic and contested shot-making - see the league MVP look helpless when the paint gets marginally clogged in the playoffs - it's an embarrassment and an indictment on the weak skillset that today's format produces.

otoh, contested shots were required on most possessions in the no-spacing eras of the past, so each player had to develop their own individually-unique way to score ON defenders... that's why players in previous eras had one-of-a-kind styles (aka jamaal wilkes, mcadoo, etc) and today's players all have the same style like identical robots that are stopped by contests (harrison barnes, lebron, draymond)... But their in-stride layups and elgin-steps on a spaced-out court look cool and "skilled" though!!! .. lol

Yes.

Spacing is better nowadays because the skill level is so much higher that more players are threats.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I think the 2020s era is the GOAT era.

2x finals mvp and 2x defensive player of the year Kawhi

Durant
Harden
LeBron
Curry
Giannis
Anthony Davis
Irving
Embiid
Jokic
Jimmy Butler
Westbrook
Luka
Zion
Tatum

When was Jason Kidd ever a 20 PPG scorer? He never was but since you said Jason Kidd I will match that with Ben Simmons.

[Bronbron23]

Skill set isn't much higher. That's just dumb. Literally all you have to be able to do is come off screens and hit open threes, jumpers and floaters now. The rules combined with the hundreds of screens and rolls makes it unguardable

[Spurs m8]

Yep.

That's today's defenseless league

[Axe]

I think the 2020s era is the GOAT era.

2x finals mvp and 2x defensive player of the year Kawhi

Durant
Harden
LeBron
Curry
Giannis
Anthony Davis
Irving
Embiid
Jokic
Jimmy Butler
Westbrook
Luka
Zion
Tatum

When was Jason Kidd ever a 20 PPG scorer? He never was but since you said Jason Kidd I will match that with Ben Simmons.
Ladies and gentlemen.

Guys that are known to have blown 3-1 leads in the postseason :applause:

[Marchesk]

Well today's era is superior compared to the past

Rookie Wilt would destroy Zion.

[3ball]

Yes.

Spacing is better nowadays because the skill level is so much higher that more players are threats.


90% of threes are open according to NBA.com

So three-point shooting is like a free throw but from a lot further, which is an inferior skill to:

* more diverse, highly-contested 2-point shot-making
* iso repertoire from the post and mid-range
* pure scoring ability (natural instinct and moves required of no-spacing)
* superior passing instinct required of no-spacing environment

You really think today's predictable drive-and-kick passing pattern amongst wide open space is anywhere near the skill required to thread needles in a no-spacing environment?... Lol

Ultimately, the "ugly" basketball of previous eras was due to no-spacing, so great plays were harder to come by and required more skill.. Today's "great" plays require zero skill because the lanes are wide open and it's hands-off with no-impede... aka mickey mouse beginner format

[clipps]

20 ppg is still a significant threshold to cross and that number is still an incentive in contracts.

If Kyle Kuzma averaged 20 ppg Lakers fans would be over the moon.

There are a ton of young guys with potential that fans are wishing and hoping would average 20 ppg to legitimize them, and then you go up from there - 25 ppg is another level and so on.

That's because Laker fans are retarded as hell.

[Mr. Woke]

Another retarded thread from 3ball.

[3ball]

Another retarded thread from 3ball.


Today's beginner format (spaced-out, hands-off, no impede) breeds beginner skillsets (layups/threes)

[Mr. Woke]

Today's beginner format (spaced-out, hands-off, no impede) breeds beginner skillsets (layups/threes)

Modern NBA players are more skilled than players from previous eras.

[3ball]

Modern NBA players are more skilled than players from previous eras.


They're trash and soft af too

A double whammy

[tanibanana]

In 98, you can leave average players very wide open outside of 12-feet, and most likely they'll miss. But today most players can hit outside of 12-feet like its nothing. Well ofcourse there are anomalies like Simmons, Giannis, and the likes.

[Stanley Kobrick]

that means we have to adjust scottie as a 35pg scorer today.

[SATAN]

36 guys average 20 points today, versus 14 in 1998

And 98' was the modern game with a comparable amount of perimeter wings and modern play, including all-stars like:

Grant Hill
Penny
Kobe
Duncan
Garnett
Kidd
Drexler
Pippen
Garnett
Hakeem
David Robinson
Shaq
Payton
Kemp
MVP Jordan


So don't use the excuse that there wasn't sufficient talent because the aforementioned players probably represent MORE talent than today's game - heck, Mitch Richmond currently leads today's league in scoring (beal)

So today's game is simply softer than a grape - a spaced-out, hands-off beginner format.. that's why league offensive rating reached record highs in each of the last 5 seasons

How low are you going to go is the question. This may possibly be the most idiotic short sighted attention seeking boomer thread so far, but I'm sure there's worse to come. :facepalm

[madmax]

that means we have to adjust scottie as a 35pg scorer today.

:lol

[TheGoatest]

Damn, that must mean that the 23 ppg on 55% shooting 1984-85 Orlando Woolridge must've been REALLY good then, and it would've been absolutely inexcusable for a "GOAT" not to make it past the first round with such a player.

[theaussieguy]

Lamello Ball is averaging 1.38 less PPG as a bench player in the NBA compared to being a starter in the NBL. Let that sink in.

[8Ball]

Proof from OP that today is higher skilled era.

Karl Malone wouldn't make All NBA 1st team in today's league.

Dame Lillard would be the MVP in 1998.

[Mr. Woke]

They're trash and soft af too

A double whammy

Players from past eras were trash and soft af.

[Kblaze8855]

The overall skill level is just higher.

It isn't just a few top end talents anymore.

It wasn’t top end talents then modern fans just don’t know any name that isn’t still said on tv.


Almost nobody here would know this guy if he knocked on their door....



https://youtu.be/DEAJOF2CdQ0


Doesnt mean he wasn’t talented....or that he wouldn’t be considered talented even today. He was 6’3” dunking from the ft line and making 30 foot game winners. He shot 34-37 percent from 3 in 4 years he took a good number with literally zero built into the offense. He’d at least be a competent outside shooter now and one of the most explosive guards in the league....but have that old in between game to fall back on top.

He and many like him would transition fine and be some of the modern players people talk about the old days not having....the talented “other guys”. He was never a star in the nba. No all star games. He was one of the random forgotten good players but far from top end.

Plenty of high end role players and not quite stars could play even 40 years ago when he came in.

For every Lou Williams there was an Eddie Johnson:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CleanPlasticCreature-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScornfulLinearBrant-size_restricted.gif



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WhoppingShorttermFlyingfish-size_restricted.gif





Coming in for a quick 35-40 off the bench with all variety of 3, pull-ups, and floaters and shooting 92% from the line that year.

He came into the league 39 years ago but he played against Kobe.... Dirk. Vince Carter.

And there’s tons of guys like him. Hell he wasn’t even the only Eddie Johnson from then. Or the best. The best one was called “Fast” Eddie and made several all star games before getting life in prison in a story nobody cares about now.

There are waaaaaaaay more good players nobody knows now. They were there. But history only remembers the big names. Doesn’t mean the small names couldn’t play.

[Kblaze8855]

Some of you may have seen this in some playoff buzzer beaters ESPN clip but that’s about all I’d expect most of you to know about the lesser of the two Eddie Johnsons:


https://youtu.be/NgtUxr-MmOg

[Bronbron23]

Proof from OP that today is higher skilled era.

Karl Malone wouldn't make All NBA 1st team in today's league.

Dame Lillard would be the MVP in 1998.:roll:

[Kblaze8855]

I will say that due to the loss of the garbage big who has no talent but height the end of rosters are better now. The last 3 guys tend to be solid but unspectacular hard working g league or second tier European league guys who can shoot and stay ready to earn a spot. The last 3 guys used to be Chuck Nevitt and dudes nicknamed “Stump” with no real ability to contribute.

The guys not in the nba and barely hanging on are better than back in the day. That’s for sure. The people getting major minutes? Not so much.

[3ball]

I will say that due to the loss of the garbage big who has no talent but height the end of rosters are better now. The last 3 guys tend to be solid but unspectacular hard working g league or second tier European league guys who can shoot and stay ready to earn a spot. The last 3 guys used to be Chuck Nevitt and dudes nicknamed “Stump” with no real ability to contribute.

The guys not in the nba and barely hanging on are better than back in the day. That’s for sure. The people getting major minutes? Not so much.


The last 3 guys on rosters in previous eras were exactly as you described -hard-working CBA guys or overseas guys

It's just recency bias to pretend that today's guys are hardworking and experienced, while previous eras were part-time mailmen..

we aren't talking about the 50's - we're talking about the 90's when there were many professional leagues around the world, including several "g league's" here in the US, aka CBA, USBL and others

People just have recency bias so they think things always evolve.. but things infact DEvolve - basketball is a great example, as contested shot-making and pure instinct is replaced by open shooting (layups/threes)

Basketball isn't just layups and threes, so today's format is a devolvement

[paksat]

They're trash and soft af too

A double whammy

I like how people try and say this league is soooo good nowadays

yet, all these guys averaging over 20 ppg... uhm ok so what you're telling me is the league is soo good to the point where all these great players are sooooooo bad defensively ?

you can't be the most developed era ever, and be dog shit on defense at the same time. That's not "development"

they can't stop literally... anyone, let alone the stars

[paksat]

Lamello Ball is averaging 1.38 less PPG as a bench player in the NBA compared to being a starter in the NBL. Let that sink in.

this post just shut everybody up, literally none of can have a comeback to this

[HoopsNY]

1998 was not a modern game. The pace was still a lot slower and of course there was no zone.

The pace in 1998 was 90.3.
The pace in 2020 was 100.3.

You still didn't have to be a good shooter to score a lot in 1998.

Almost all of the high scorers this year are good three point shooters. Curry, Beal, Murray, Jokic, VanVleet, Embiid, LeBron, LaVine, Harden, Lillard.

It's more difficult to score today because of the zones, so if you transplanted those players from 1998 they wouldn't be able to score like they were used to unless they improved their 3 point shooting.

Lebron being a career 34% 3 pt shooter, and this year 35%, is a "good" 3 point shooter? The league average is 37%, but somehow that translates into him being "good" from behind the arc?

[HoopsNY]

Proof from OP that today is higher skilled era.

Karl Malone wouldn't make All NBA 1st team in today's league.

Dame Lillard would be the MVP in 1998.

Yep. I mean, what would that make Malone, who in 1999, won MVP honors in a league with the likes of Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe, Kidd, Payton, Hill, Iverson, etc in the league? So if he was just "good," then the rest of those guys would be mediocre, at best, in today's league.

And by virtue of being mediocre, then good Lord, guys like Kareem, Bird, Magic, MJ, Hakeem, Wilt, Oscar, Russell, etc were downright atrocious.

Basically, Bran stans might as well just admit it; the league didn't exist until 2010. Ironically, LeBron came into the league in 2003, but yea, he's the exception of guys from the "old" era that could make it in the "new" era, right?

What's even funnier is if you look at any Bran stan's top 10-15 list, it will consist of players who are exclusively pre-2010. Their criteria and analyses are never consistent.

The logic that these toddlers have today, even subliminally, is quite odd.

[HoopsNY]

It wasn’t top end talents then modern fans just don’t know any name that isn’t still said on tv.


Almost nobody here would know this guy if he knocked on their door....



https://youtu.be/DEAJOF2CdQ0


Doesnt mean he wasn’t talented....or that he wouldn’t be considered talented even today. He was 6’3” dunking from the ft line and making 30 foot game winners. He shot 34-37 percent from 3 in 4 years he took a good number with literally zero built into the offense. He’d at least be a competent outside shooter now and one of the most explosive guards in the league....but have that old in between game to fall back on top.

He and many like him would transition fine and be some of the modern players people talk about the old days not having....the talented “other guys”. He was never a star in the nba. No all star games. He was one of the random forgotten good players but far from top end.

Plenty of high end role players and not quite stars could play even 40 years ago when he came in.

For every Lou Williams there was an Eddie Johnson:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CleanPlasticCreature-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScornfulLinearBrant-size_restricted.gif



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WhoppingShorttermFlyingfish-size_restricted.gif





Coming in for a quick 35-40 off the bench with all variety of 3, pull-ups, and floaters and shooting 92% from the line that year.

He came into the league 39 years ago but he played against Kobe.... Dirk. Vince Carter.

And there’s tons of guys like him. Hell he wasn’t even the only Eddie Johnson from then. Or the best. The best one was called “Fast” Eddie and made several all star games before getting life in prison in a story nobody cares about now.

There are waaaaaaaay more good players nobody knows now. They were there. But history only remembers the big names. Doesn’t mean the small names couldn’t play.

You're using logic, context, analysis, and an overall expertise of the game to put claims within their proper place. New aged fans are incapable of that. Your typical fan (typically under the age of 25-28), today thinks that the league sucked before 2010 but somehow has a top 10-15 list exclusively with players who entered the league prior to 2010.

[AussieSteve]

36 guys average 20 points today, versus 14 in 1998

And 98' was the modern game with a comparable amount of perimeter wings and modern play, including all-stars like:

Grant Hill
Penny
Kobe STILL A CHILD
Duncan STILL A CHILD
Garnett STILL A CHILD
Kidd
Drexler OLD AF
Pippen
Garnett WHERE THERE TWO?
Hakeem OLD AF
David Robinson INJURED AF
Shaq
Payton
Kemp
MVP Jordan


So don't use the excuse that there wasn't sufficient talent because the aforementioned players probably represent MORE talent than today's game - heck, Mitch Richmond currently leads today's league in scoring (beal)

So today's game is simply softer than a grape - a spaced-out, hands-off beginner format.. that's why league offensive rating reached record highs in each of the last 5 seasons

1997 and 1998 are, without any doubt at all, the worst two seasons of the 3pt era talent wise.

[G0ATbe]

So basically there's more good players now than there were in 90s?

[3ball]

So basically there's more good players now than there were in 90s?


Mitch Richmond was a solid all-star in the 90's, but today, he's scoring champ (beal)

You can't tell me Beal is anything special but he's completely dominating

It's just a much easier game that benefits Jordan's position the most.. that's why everyone says he would average 40 ppg today, guaranteed... I think 50 is entirely possible.. it's a beginner format of the game

[Kiddlovesnets]

Even in the old area, 20ppg wouldnt necessarily make a player good, a counter example is Jerry Stackhouse who had a 29.8ppg season in 2000-2001.

[Bronbron23]

Even in the old area, 20ppg wouldnt necessarily make a player good, a counter example is Jerry Stackhouse who had a 29.8ppg season in 2000-2001.

Yeah Not all 20 ppg are the same. It's way harder to put up 20ppg on a contender than it is on a bum team.

[Axe]

Yeah Not all 20 ppg are the same. It's way harder to put up 20ppg on a contender than it is on a bum team.
Which bran did in his first stint with the cavs

[Bronbron23]

Which bran did in his first stint with the cavs

Well some guys like bron are gonna put up 20 plus ppg no matter where they are. That's not the case for everyone

[MadDog]

All the players listed would wreck shop in today's game. During Jordan's prime Chicago had seasons they played at the slowest pace, so imagine a slashing wing like Pippen now? Where everyone is like 80s Showtime. :oldlol: Pippen is underrated in general--good mention from the OP.

[Manny98]

So why couldn't MJ get out of the first round with Orlando Woolridge

[Gohan]

So why couldn't MJ get out of the first round with Orlando Woolridge

Why didn’t Orlando Anderson get arrested for killing 2pac? The fvck is an Orlando?!Florida?

[999Guy]

What’s your point?


And 20 points back in the day didn’t mean you were definitely good. No one stat does.

[kawhileonard2]

I think the 2020s era is the GOAT era.

2x finals mvp and 2x defensive player of the year Kawhi

Durant
Harden
LeBron
Curry
Giannis
Anthony Davis
Irving
Embiid
Jokic
Jimmy Butler
Westbrook
Luka
Zion
Tatum

When was Jason Kidd ever a 20 PPG scorer? He never was but since you said Jason Kidd I will match that with Ben Simmons.

Is Lebron the only one on the list with 2 bronze medals?

[Axe]

Well some guys like bron are gonna put up 20 plus ppg no matter where they are. That's not the case for everyone
T-mac did the same thing for more than five seasons in a row but was often dumbfounded in their finales.

[Mr. Woke]

The modern NBA is way tougher than previous eras.

Modern players are also more skilled.

Case closed.