Does Any Perimeter Player in History Approach Peak MJ from 1988-1993?

[dankok8]

Bigs are hard to compare to perimeter players so let's leave them out of it.

Just guys who play positions 1 through 3... Does anyone touch peak MJ?

In those 6 seasons...

6x All-NBA 1st Team
6x All-Defensive 1st Team
6x Scoring Champions
3x MVP (1988, 1991, 1992)
3x FMVP (1991, 1992, 1993)
1x DPOY (1988)

Season: 32.5 ppg, 6.6 rpg (1.6 orpg), 6.2 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.0 bpg on 59.5 %TS (+5.9 rTS) with 2.9 topg in 39.1 mpg

Playoffs: 34.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg (1.6 orpg) , 6.6 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.9 bpg on 58.3 %TS (+4.7 rTS) with 3.3 topg in 41.7 mpg

Finals: 36.3 ppg, 6.6 rpg (1.7 orpg), 7.9 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 59.1 %TS (+5.5 rTS) with 2.6 topg in 44.0 mpg


MJ also led in pretty much every single advanced stat in every single year as well for those who like it.

No weaknesses as a player either.


No trolling or talking about longevity. Is there any perimeter player who comes close to him in terms of peak play?

[Micku]

I think only LeBron in 2009 specifically.

And the rest varies. Like Miami LeBron may touch him in the regular season, but not in the playoffs. And 2nd run with the Cavs may not touch him in the regular season, but in the playoffs he does.

I'm too lazy to check the stats right now tho. Just going off the top of my head.

I think I saw someone did some research and how MJ spike up his production in the playoffs more than any star in NBA history I think? Something like that. Which is crazy considering how insane his regular season numbers are.

LeBron might be the second. But you can argue that LBJ play the 4 too, so whatever.

This thread is probably gonn'a be another LeBron vs MJ debate. Shame tho. But it shows the greatness of LeBron and MJ. MJ was so good, nobody touched him in advance stats until the game got easier for perimeter players and coaches wised up to do efficient offense.

[Charlie Sheen]

Wade and magic. KD and Lebron unless you want to call them power forwards.

[Micku]

Oh. I think Curry 16 was probably better offensively. At least in the regular season. Not in the playoffs. And he wasn't as good with all around play or as a scorer.

Magic had a years where he may have matched up with MJ offensively too, but in a different way.

[RRR3]

I think only LeBron in 2009 specifically.

And the rest varies. Like Miami LeBron may touch him in the regular season, but not in the playoffs. And 2nd run with the Cavs may not touch him in the regular season, but in the playoffs he does.

I'm too lazy to check the stats right now tho. Just going off the top of my head.

I think I saw someone did some research and how MJ spike up his production in the playoffs more than any star in NBA history I think? Something like that. Which is crazy considering how insane his regular season numbers are.

LeBron might be the second. But you can argue that LBJ play the 4 too, so whatever.

This thread is probably gonn'a be another LeBron vs MJ debate. Shame tho. But it shows the greatness of LeBron and MJ. MJ was so good, nobody touched him in advance stats until the game got easier for perimeter players and coaches wised up to do efficient offense.
LeBron was ridiculously dominant in the 2012 playoffs. On both ends. Lol.

[Micku]

LeBron was ridiculously dominant in the 2012 playoffs. On both ends. Lol.

You're right. Don't get me wrong. I don't mind to say it wasn't great. I think LeBron was great at both end in Miami in general. But compared to MJ in those 88-93? I think LeBron had more years in Cavs in the playoffs to compare.

But it depends on the years.

[Gohan]

2005 iverson does dude was missing shots on purpose to lower his fg%

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Approach?

Key word there, but Bron from 12-18 is basically in that same tier. ~30/9/8 in the playoffs on 59%TS. His impact stats are also impressive. Bron had: less winshares and roughly equal PER but a higher VORP and BPM.

3 MVPs, 3 FMVPS, 6 All-NBA selections and 3 All-Defensive teams. You could go back to 2009 and Bron would have like 7 straight All-NBAs with more MVPs, but he didn't win until he played in Miami and later with Cleveland again.

[SouBeachTalents]

The obvious answer is LeBron, he's the only perimeter player that even approaches Jordan's playoff production & advanced numbers

[Micku]

Approach?

Key word there, but Bron from 12-18 is basically in that same tier. ~30/9/8 in the playoffs on 59%TS. His impact stats are also impressive. Bron had: less winshares and roughly equal PER but a higher VORP and BPM.

3 MVPs, 3 FMVPS, 6 All-NBA selections and 3 All-Defensive teams. You could go back to 2009 and Bron would have like 7 straight All-NBAs with more MVPs, but he didn't win until he played in Miami and later with Cleveland again.

I think he only had a higher bpm in 2009. MJ hold the second highest bpm previously in 88 I believe. And in the playoffs, LeBron hold it in 2009 too. But MJ is the second in 1991. Both them have like three seasons in the top 10 bpm in the regular season. But in the playoffs, MJ has more. Like LeBron has 2, while MJ has 3 or something. All within the years of 88-93.

He honestly really the only one to compare to MJ when it comes to quality of play. Although you could argue another player may have one year that were around the ball park too. There isn't many. LeBron and MJ are pretty much on their own tier.

Although Magic and Curry had years offensively that they could compare.

[dankok8]

Approach?

Key word there, but Bron from 12-18 is basically in that same tier. ~30/9/8 in the playoffs on 59%TS. His impact stats are also impressive. Bron had: less winshares and roughly equal PER but a higher VORP and BPM.

3 MVPs, 3 FMVPS, 6 All-NBA selections and 3 All-Defensive teams. You could go back to 2009 and Bron would have like 7 straight All-NBAs with more MVPs, but he didn't win until he played in Miami and later with Cleveland again.

Playoff Comparison:

1987-1993 Jordan: 34.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg (1.6 orpg) , 6.6 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.9 bpg on 58.3 %TS (+4.7 rTS) with 3.3 topg in 41.7 mpg
2012-2018 Lebron: 29.5 ppg, 9.2 rpg (1.6 orpg), 7.1 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg on 59.0 %TS (+4.9 rTS) with 3.6 topg in 41.1 mpg

Finals Comparison:

1987-1993 Jordan: 36.3 ppg, 6.6 rpg (1.7 orpg), 7.9 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 59.1 %TS (+5.5 rTS) with 2.6 topg in 44.0 mpg
2012-2018 Lebron: 30.5 ppg, 10.7 rpg (2.2 orpg), 8.0 apg, 1.8 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.4 %TS (+2.3 rTS) with 3.8 topg in 42.7 mpg

I don't think it's the same tier. MJ gives you 5-6 more ppg and everything else is similar on offense. Defensively I'd give MJ a solid edge as well because Lebron in the 2014, 2017 and 2018 wasn't very good defensively in the playoffs. In those Finals in particular he was terrible on defense.

But anyways 5-6 ppg with all else equal is a big gap. That's the bottom line.

[Rysio]

Statistically probably not but Jordan was going all out those years and I think some players could do all that if they were in similar situation.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think he only had a higher bpm in 2009. MJ hold the second highest bpm previously in 88 I believe. And in the playoffs, LeBron hold it in 2009 too. But MJ is the second in 1991. Both them have like three seasons in the top 10 bpm in the regular season. But in the playoffs, MJ has more. Like LeBron has 2, while MJ has 3 or something. All within the years of 88-93.

He honestly really the only one to compare to MJ when it comes to quality of play. Although you could argue another player may have one year that were around the ball park too. There isn't many. LeBron and MJ are pretty much on their own tier.

Although Magic and Curry had years offensively that they could compare.

You're right, Micku.

Mike had the higher box, got that confused with different years. Double checked and everything else is legit though. Bron's BPM in 2018 was better than Jordan's in 1992 and 1993 which shows just as dominant he was in that playoffs, offensively. Don't think its his best run overall but clearly his best on O.



Playoff Comparison:

1987-1993 Jordan: 34.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg (1.6 orpg) , 6.6 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.9 bpg on 58.3 %TS (+4.7 rTS) with 3.3 topg in 41.7 mpg
2012-2018 Lebron: 29.5 ppg, 9.2 rpg (1.6 orpg), 7.1 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg on 59.0 %TS (+4.9 rTS) with 3.6 topg in 41.1 mpg

Finals Comparison:

1987-1993 Jordan: 36.3 ppg, 6.6 rpg (1.7 orpg), 7.9 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 59.1 %TS (+5.5 rTS) with 2.6 topg in 44.0 mpg
2012-2018 Lebron: 30.5 ppg, 10.7 rpg (2.2 orpg), 8.0 apg, 1.8 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.4 %TS (+2.3 rTS) with 3.8 topg in 42.7 mpg

I don't think it's the same tier. MJ gives you 5-6 more ppg and everything else is similar on offense. Defensively I'd give MJ a solid edge as well because Lebron in the 2014, 2017 and 2018 wasn't very good defensively in the playoffs. In those Finals in particular he was terrible on defense.

But anyways 5-6 ppg with all else equal is a big gap. That's the bottom line.

Yup, Jordan is better because of his scoring and ability to play more consistent defense.

You're not wrong that a 5 point scoring gap is big, which is why I've said he has a better peak and prime. Thing is you used "approach" in your OP and I doubt anyone has the two in different tiers. Bron is the only other perimeter player who "approached" Jordan. Especially in impact.

[bizil]

IF we are being technical, the guys like Magic, Bird, Bron, and KD PLAYED the PF position in their careers. And have that size in their games. Even though their primary position was PG (Magic) and SF (Bird, Bron, KD). However even if you include those guys, MJ HANDS DOWN is still superior. Don't have to think twice. He was a 10/10 in all these areas for his position:

Scoring
Passing
Rebounding
Defense
Killer Instinct
Positional Versatility (can play and defend PG, SG, and SF LEGIT at great levels)
Freak athletic ability


BUT the thing about Lebron is the fact he covers up MORE HOLES than any player in history. He has PF size and versatility in his game. For perimeter guys, IT TAKES somebody like a Bron, Magic, Bird, or KD (guys who have more positional versatility) to possibly overtake MJ.

BUT even in those guys case, they don't overtake MJ. And for guys who are strictly PG, SG, and SF in terms positional versatility, it's harder for them to have the edge on MJ. The guys like Kobe, Wade, Doc, Steph, Oscar, West, Zeke, etc. for example. If Bron had SOME MORE killer instinct in his game (not saying he totally lacks it), he would have what it takes to overtake MJ.

[Micku]

Playoff Comparison:

1987-1993 Jordan: 34.6 ppg, 6.7 rpg (1.6 orpg) , 6.6 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.9 bpg on 58.3 %TS (+4.7 rTS) with 3.3 topg in 41.7 mpg
2012-2018 Lebron: 29.5 ppg, 9.2 rpg (1.6 orpg), 7.1 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg on 59.0 %TS (+4.9 rTS) with 3.6 topg in 41.1 mpg

Finals Comparison:

1987-1993 Jordan: 36.3 ppg, 6.6 rpg (1.7 orpg), 7.9 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg on 59.1 %TS (+5.5 rTS) with 2.6 topg in 44.0 mpg
2012-2018 Lebron: 30.5 ppg, 10.7 rpg (2.2 orpg), 8.0 apg, 1.8 spg, 1.0 bpg on 56.4 %TS (+2.3 rTS) with 3.8 topg in 42.7 mpg

I don't think it's the same tier. MJ gives you 5-6 more ppg and everything else is similar on offense. Defensively I'd give MJ a solid edge as well because Lebron in the 2014, 2017 and 2018 wasn't very good defensively in the playoffs. In those Finals in particular he was terrible on defense.

But anyways 5-6 ppg with all else equal is a big gap. That's the bottom line.

He's really the only one that you could compare. If he isn't it to some ppl, then that's pretty much it. No one else really compares in all around game. Like I said, offensively a couple of other players other than LeBron.

Although with the finals comparison, those Miami years he wasn't his best. His 2nd years with the Cavs, he posted up better numbers. But he wasn't great defensively. Miami he had better regular season numbers and imo, had his best play. He peaked in 2013. But with the Cavs, he coasted till the playoffs I think. But again, he also played a lot of the 4 in 2013 and 2014. So, I don't know if it even counts.

I feel like they are in the same tier tho. They had similar impact on their team. But as you said, MJ scoring is just too crazy. And he always brought it defensively. He was more consistent on that front. Like you can consider MJ to be better for sure, and I'm not going to argue. But you did say approach, and the only one that I feel like that could approach of a perimeter player is him. You can argue that he's a 4 tho with some of those years. But if not LeBron, who else? Legit, I don't think anyone else can compare. Maybe some offensively.

[8Ball]

LeBron 4 MVPs out of 5 years. All NBA 1st and All defensive 1st.

2009-2013

[8Ball]

He's really the only one that you could compare. If he isn't it to some ppl, then that's pretty much it. No one else really compares in all around game. Like I said, offensively a couple of other players other than LeBron.

Although with the finals comparison, those Miami years he wasn't his best. His 2nd years with the Cavs, he posted up better numbers. But he wasn't great defensively. Miami he had better regular season numbers and imo, had his best play. He peaked in 2013. But with the Cavs, he coasted till the playoffs I think. But again, he also played a lot of the 4 in 2013 and 2014. So, I don't know if it even counts.

I feel like they are in the same tier tho. They had similar impact on their team. But as you said, MJ scoring is just too crazy. And he always brought it defensively. He was more consistent on that front. Like you can consider MJ to be better for sure, and I'm not going to argue. But you did say approach, and the only one that I feel like that could approach of a perimeter player is him. You can argue that he's a 4 tho with some of those years. But if not LeBron, who else? Legit, I don't think anyone else can compare. Maybe some offensively.

Jordan was great but his entire career was too short to compare with LeBrons.

11 All-NBA years vs LeBron's soon to be 17 All-NBA teams. LeBron going to have 14 All-NBA 1st teams.

Greatness measures longevity as well and Jordan has 0 longevity arguments.

[Kblaze8855]

Well in the gm survey in 1990 Magic was selected ahead of Jordan for player you most wanted to add to your roster and David Robinson was second. So I’d say it’s pretty easy to imagine a number of people ranked alongside Jordan in a peak for peak situation. It wasn’t unheard of to want other players first even then. Looking back on the whole career these things get brushed away. At the time in question? A few people might be picked as the best player in the nba over Jordan.

Things get a lot more unanimous over time than they are when they are going on.

Im not 100% sure you could have easily had Patrick Ewing for Jordan in a straight swap those few years he was going in on everyone if only for the big man advantage. You’d get him but it would be a process not a no brainer when he was doing like 29 a game and both had never won anything. The lakers definitely wouldn’t have traded you Magic for Jordan in 1988.

Jordan is the majority goat now by more than he was considered the best player in the league a lot of the years in question.

That said....ive never seen anyone better. But I’ve seen some close enough not to disrespect and say it’s not even comparable. Considering D Jordan was a better total player than Bird. I’m not sure he makes every team better than Bird does though.

Its not a “Don’t even bring it up.....” level blowout no matter what people think 35 years later.

[paksat]

wade in 06 and 09 was the most unstoppable player the NBA has ever seen ( besides shaq ), at least IMO.

so in those years, i'd say so but he didn't have the longevity obviously.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2016-present kawhi playoff stats:

10.9 BPM, 26% win share per 48, 28.7 PER, 7.2 VORP

[8Ball]

You don't even know the formula behind any of those advanced stats without googling it Kawhi stan.

Not 1 MVP for Kawhi.

[AirBonner]

Charles Barkley statistically was better than MJ on the perimeter

[SATAN]

There has to be a limit on the number of creative ways you can post the same thread over and over again

[999Guy]

wade in 06 and 09 was the most unstoppable player the NBA has ever seen ( besides shaq ), at least IMO.

so in those years, i'd say so but he didn't have the longevity obviously.

why?

[999Guy]

There has to be a limit on the number of creative ways you can post the same thread over and over again

And then dummy bunched the years together.

.

92 just wasn’t the athlete he was before.

93 Jordan was clearly past peak on both ends and was absolutely not better than Hakeem that year.

88-91 Jordan is really where the rare territory is.

[AirBonner]

85/86 Barkley was better than any version of MJ

[bizil]

Well in the gm survey in 1990 Magic was selected ahead of Jordan for player you most wanted to add to your roster and David Robinson was second. So IÂ’d say itÂ’s pretty easy to imagine a number of people ranked alongside Jordan in a peak for peak situation. It wasnÂ’t unheard of to want other players first even then. Looking back on the whole career these things get brushed away. At the time in question? A few people might be picked as the best player in the nba over Jordan.

Things get a lot more unanimous over time than they are when they are going on.

Im not 100% sure you could have easily had Patrick Ewing for Jordan in a straight swap those few years he was going in on everyone if only for the big man advantage. YouÂ’d get him but it would be a process not a no brainer when he was doing like 29 a game and both had never won anything. The lakers definitely wouldnÂ’t have traded you Magic for Jordan in 1988.

Jordan is the majority goat now by more than he was considered the best player in the league a lot of the years in question.

That said....ive never seen anyone better. But IÂ’ve seen some close enough not to disrespect and say itÂ’s not even comparable. Considering D Jordan was a better total player than Bird. IÂ’m not sure he makes every team better than Bird does though.

Its not a “Don’t even bring it up.....” level blowout no matter what people think 35 years later.

Great points! MJ is the best I've seen HANDS DOWN! But Magic, Bird, Bron, and KD on the perimeter ALL have elements to their games that MJ NEVER HAD. In terms of stuff like positional versatility (all four guys) and pure shooting ability from anywhere (KD and Bird 50-40-90 guys). When it comes to passing, MJ would rank 4th out of the five. Triple double ability, he would rank the same.

However I would still give MJ the edge BECAUSE he's the best blend of great scoring, great floor game (two way wise), killer instinct, and athletic ability. That doesn't mean a discussing CAN'T be had. BUT for me, only guys who can play the PF position in addition to their perimeter spots and have more positional versatility can be seen as potential competition. Bron, Magic, Bird, KD. Because I've seen Magic be TOO BIG for MJ to handle. And I know Magic is the ultimate triple double machine, can play damn near any position offensively, and has alpha dog cred scoring the rock. And Magic DOES make his teammates better. Still would take MJ as the better player. BUT I certainly would choose Magic in multiple different areas over MJ.

[r0drig0lac]

IF we are being technical, the guys like Magic, Bird, Bron, and KD PLAYED the PF position in their careers. And have that size in their games. Even though their primary position was PG (Magic) and SF (Bird, Bron, KD). However even if you include those guys, MJ HANDS DOWN is still superior. Don't have to think twice. He was a 10/10 in all these areas for his position:

Scoring
Passing
Rebounding
Defense
Killer Instinct
Positional Versatility (can play and defend PG, SG, and SF LEGIT at great levels)
Freak athletic ability


BUT the thing about Lebron is the fact he covers up MORE HOLES than any player in history. He has PF size and versatility in his game. For perimeter guys, IT TAKES somebody like a Bron, Magic, Bird, or KD (guys who have more positional versatility) to possibly overtake MJ.

BUT even in those guys case, they don't overtake MJ. And for guys who are strictly PG, SG, and SF in terms positional versatility, it's harder for them to have the edge on MJ. The guys like Kobe, Wade, Doc, Steph, Oscar, West, Zeke, etc. for example. If Bron had SOME MORE killer instinct in his game (not saying he totally lacks it), he would have what it takes to overtake MJ.

good post

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You don't even know the formula behind any of those advanced stats without googling it Kawhi stan.

Not 1 MVP for Kawhi.

Mvp is just a popularity contest. Kawhi should of won it in 2016 and 2017.

The eye test tells me kawhi is better then lebron and the closest to Jordan. His stats back up my eye test.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

8Ball, don't continue that debate with me unless you want to get embarrassed. I've seen your posts, you can't hang with me.

[dankok8]

@Micku
@Kuniva

You guys said they are the same tier. Depends how you define tier.

The gap between Jordan's and Lebron's scoring of 5-6 ppg is about the same as the gap between Shaq's and Duncan's scoring in their peaks. And I don't think any would have Duncan in the same tier as Shaq on offense. With all other factors like efficiency, passing, offensive rebounding, turnovers roughly canceling out, I don't see how Lebron can be on the same tier as MJ offensively. MJ also led better offensive teams historically. I'm not sure what impact Kuniva is talking about.

Micku mentioned 2009 and I agree. That's one year from start to finish, season plus playoffs including defense where Lebron matches prime MJ but is that season an outlier? 2007, 2008 and 2010 Lebron were not near that level. 2011 needs no introduction. Then you have 2012 where Lebron was great but still not on MJ's level. 30/9/6 doesn't touch 35/7/7... 2013 to 2016 his offensive stats in the playoffs are well below MJ's and worse than his own best as well. Even if you say his defense is slightly better than MJ it doesn't even come close. In 2017 and 2018 his offensive stats are close but still not quite there and his defense fell of dramatically in those two years.

A few players have a year or two here and there but Jordan's consecutive dominance from 1988-1993... and really 1986-1993 if we focus on the playoffs is just unmatched.

[Micku]

Well in the gm survey in 1990 Magic was selected ahead of Jordan for player you most wanted to add to your roster and David Robinson was second. So I’d say it’s pretty easy to imagine a number of people ranked alongside Jordan in a peak for peak situation. It wasn’t unheard of to want other players first even then. Looking back on the whole career these things get brushed away. At the time in question? A few people might be picked as the best player in the nba over Jordan.

Things get a lot more unanimous over time than they are when they are going on.

Im not 100% sure you could have easily had Patrick Ewing for Jordan in a straight swap those few years he was going in on everyone if only for the big man advantage. You’d get him but it would be a process not a no brainer when he was doing like 29 a game and both had never won anything. The lakers definitely wouldn’t have traded you Magic for Jordan in 1988.

Jordan is the majority goat now by more than he was considered the best player in the league a lot of the years in question.

That said....ive never seen anyone better. But I’ve seen some close enough not to disrespect and say it’s not even comparable. Considering D Jordan was a better total player than Bird. I’m not sure he makes every team better than Bird does though.

Its not a “Don’t even bring it up.....” level blowout no matter what people think 35 years later.

Ha! I think it's cause most people in the west coast, especially in LA, just consider Magic a better team player. And he was/is beloved in LA. Like when I talk to b-ball heads who saw Magic prime and such in LA, they always said they believe he was the better team player, but MJ was the better individual player. I never been to Boston, so I'm curious of what ppl would think about Bird vs MJ, and there is hardly any Bird fans in LA who I talked to. They give him great respect tho.

But that's been the thing with MJ in general in the 80s. That while MJ is the better individual talent, Magic would probably make the team better more so than MJ. But the counter argument is that MJ didn't play with as much talent. I remember ppl arguing about that even when I was kid. And even my teachers in middle and high school keep arguing about that. But the point is, nobody that I've met, the interviews that I seen, really thought MJ was worse than Magic as a individual player. MJ was always the better talent. At least in LA. I dunno about what Celts fans thought.

Maybe the Pistons thought MJ was overrated, maybe to a delusional lvl. Blind hatred maybe, but it comes with the territory. I was checking some internet post back in the day when google allowed you to search that far.

But in terms of ability on the floor, MJ was just unreal. 88-93 was probably the best player ever, especially for a perimeter player. You can definitely argue with other players, but it's pretty crazy how he was able to do those things. I still think he was the best combination of athletic ability and skill. And he was leading in advance stats before it was even popular. And only LeBron really compares for a perimeter player in that regard. But he played some 4, so there is some gray area there.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Don't know what the stats mean until you Google them. That's like telling someone you don't know how to read until you learn how to read. What a dumbass. 8 ball? More like 1/8th of a brain. Idiot

[dankok8]

Well in the gm survey in 1990 Magic was selected ahead of Jordan for player you most wanted to add to your roster and David Robinson was second. So I’d say it’s pretty easy to imagine a number of people ranked alongside Jordan in a peak for peak situation. It wasn’t unheard of to want other players first even then. Looking back on the whole career these things get brushed away. At the time in question? A few people might be picked as the best player in the nba over Jordan.

Things get a lot more unanimous over time than they are when they are going on.

Im not 100% sure you could have easily had Patrick Ewing for Jordan in a straight swap those few years he was going in on everyone if only for the big man advantage. You’d get him but it would be a process not a no brainer when he was doing like 29 a game and both had never won anything. The lakers definitely wouldn’t have traded you Magic for Jordan in 1988.

Jordan is the majority goat now by more than he was considered the best player in the league a lot of the years in question.

That said....ive never seen anyone better. But I’ve seen some close enough not to disrespect and say it’s not even comparable. Considering D Jordan was a better total player than Bird. I’m not sure he makes every team better than Bird does though.

Its not a “Don’t even bring it up.....” level blowout no matter what people think 35 years later.

I agree with this post.

Maybe not comparable is harsh but MJ is clearly the best perimeter player in history... if we believe the numbers that is. If we don't believe the numbers the topic is way too subjective and not even worth discussing IMO.

I too would have some other players over him in certain team situations. Still with his defense, intangibles and great off-ball value offensively (jumper, cutting, offensive rebounding) I feel like there aren't many situations where taking someone else over prime MJ is optimal. Basically what Bizil said that for a perimeter player no one can match him.

[Micku]

@Micku
@Kuniva

You guys said they are the same tier. Depends how you define tier.

The gap between Jordan's and Lebron's scoring of 5-6 ppg is about the same as the gap between Shaq's and Duncan's scoring in their peaks. And I don't think any would have Duncan in the same tier as Shaq on offense. With all other factors like efficiency, passing, offensive rebounding, turnovers roughly canceling out, I don't see how Lebron can be on the same tier as MJ offensively. MJ also led better offensive teams historically. I'm not sure what impact Kuniva is talking about.

Micku mentioned 2009 and I agree. That's one year from start to finish, season plus playoffs including defense where Lebron matches prime MJ but is that season an outlier? 2007, 2008 and 2010 Lebron were not near that level. 2011 needs no introduction. Then you have 2012 where Lebron was great but still not on MJ's level. 30/9/6 doesn't touch 35/7/7... 2013 to 2016 his offensive stats in the playoffs are well below MJ's and worse than his own best as well. Even if you say his defense is slightly better than MJ it doesn't even come close. In 2017 and 2018 his offensive stats are close but still not quite there and his defense fell of dramatically in those two years.

A few players have a year or two here and there but Jordan's consecutive dominance from 1988-1993... and really 1986-1993 if we focus on the playoffs is just unmatched.

There is nobody that has that good of a stretch with both ends when you consider everything for a perimeter player. Rewards, stats, skill, defense, offense.

But the closest one is LeBron. As Kuniva said, you said approach. He is the closet.

He is in the same tier with advance stats for sure. With PER, BPM, VORP, and WS. With WS, the centers dominated. MJ is the only non center there. And the next one after him is LeBron. With VORP, MJ has the best single season in 88. The next one after him is LeBron in 09. With BPM, LeBron has the best single season in 09. The next best is MJ 88. Even with PER. Only MJ, LeBron, and Wilt are the only three that in the top 10 more than twice in the top 10 nba history. Although MJ has more 31 PER seasons than LeBron. They are all within that stretch of 88-93 too.

He only surpass him in one year with impact with stats (bpm) in 2009 in both RS and PO. But in a stretch? That's still MJ. But even then, the closest you have is LeBron. He's really the only one. Even if you take advance stats out of the equation because it isn't everything, who else comes close as a perimeter player? Curry in 16, but that's only RS. Magic for a couple of years offensively, but stats don't really show how much impact he has sometimes. Bird maybe for that 3 straight MVP years or from 84-88, but the playoffs was still lacking in comparison. Not to say it isn't bad, but like MJ out scored him on average like 8 ppg and shot better from the field. Bird is another player where raw stats may not show his impact.

I truly believe truly year is 2009 for LeBron. But that's just in stats. I don't think he was a better player in 2009 than he was with Miami in 2012 or 2013.

The other ones, you could nitpick. 2012 was solid and great, but not really MJ. 2013 LeBron probably has his best regular season at both ends and skill, but not the best playoffs of his career. The Cav years from 16-18 were great offensively and match up with MJ, but not defensively. But LeBron has the argument of doing more for the team with the raw numbers. Leading in all categories, but Bird almost did that too if I can recall. You could probably find some other advance stat that LeBron matches up or even surpass MJ, but vice versa, but the bottom line is that they are close with that. Which is why I would say they are in the same tier.

But just because they are in the same tier. LeBron the is the only dude who matched up or surpass him in these advance stats. Even in quality of play, he is right up there. You could still say one is better than the other.
Statically, sure. That 88-93 season is the best. At least combination of RS and PO.
But Lebron is the closest. And is definitely up there with advance stats.

There is some subjective stuff tho. Like the skillset and everything.

[Airupthere]

8Ball, don't continue that debate with me unless you want to get embarrassed. I've seen your posts, you can't hang with me.

:lebronamazed:

[AirBonner]

The key to MJ’s success was the Pippen

[dankok8]

There is nobody that has that good of a stretch with both ends when you consider everything for a perimeter player. Rewards, stats, skill, defense, offense.

But the closest one is LeBron. As Kuniva said, you said approach. He is the closet.

He is in the same tier with advance stats for sure. With PER, BPM, VORP, and WS. With WS, the centers dominated. MJ is the only non center there. And the next one after him is LeBron. With VORP, MJ has the best single season in 88. The next one after him is LeBron in 09. With BPM, LeBron has the best single season in 09. The next best is MJ 88. Even with PER. Only MJ, LeBron, and Wilt are the only three that in the top 10 more than twice in the top 10 nba history. Although MJ has more 31 PER seasons than LeBron. They are all within that stretch of 88-93 too.

He only surpass him in one year with impact with stats (bpm) in 2009 in both RS and PO. But in a stretch? That's still MJ. But even then, the closest you have is LeBron. He's really the only one. Even if you take advance stats out of the equation because it isn't everything, who else comes close as a perimeter player? Curry in 16, but that's only RS. Magic for a couple of years offensively, but stats don't really show how much impact he has sometimes. Bird maybe for that 3 straight MVP years or from 84-88, but the playoffs was still lacking in comparison. Not to say it isn't bad, but like MJ out scored him on average like 8 ppg and shot better from the field. Bird is another player where raw stats may not show his impact.

I truly believe truly year is 2009 for LeBron. But that's just in stats. I don't think he was a better player in 2009 than he was with Miami in 2012 or 2013.

The other ones, you could nitpick. 2012 was solid and great, but not really MJ. 2013 LeBron probably has his best regular season at both ends and skill, but not the best playoffs of his career. The Cav years from 16-18 were great offensively and match up with MJ, but not defensively. But LeBron has the argument of doing more for the team with the raw numbers. Leading in all categories, but Bird almost did that too if I can recall. You could probably find some other advance stat that LeBron matches up or even surpass MJ, but vice versa, but the bottom line is that they are close with that. Which is why I would say they are in the same tier.

But just because they are in the same tier. LeBron the is the only dude who matched up or surpass him in these advance stats. Even in quality of play, he is right up there. You could still say one is better than the other.
Statically, sure. That 88-93 season is the best. At least combination of RS and PO.
But Lebron is the closest. And is definitely up there with advance stats.

There is some subjective stuff tho. Like the skillset and everything.

I'm not a big fan of stats like PER, BPM, VORP and WS. They all use basic boxscore stats in different ways but they all just aggregate them using different coefficients for each metric. IIRC, for example PER weighs every assist as 0.67 (2/3) of a point and BPM weighs each assist as 0.5 points. All of them are based on regression analyses on boxscore stats but serve basically no purpose if you scan the entire basic boxscore with your own eyes. You don't get any new information from those stats.

To make things even worse in terms of comparing eras, prior to 77-78 there were no individual turnovers tracked and prior to 73-74 no blocks, no steals and no differentiation between defensive and offensive rebounds. For all players prior to 77-78 these stats are calculated differently and as such cannot be compared to players since. Thus someone like Wilt having two seasons in the top 10 all-time means very little because his PER is calculated differently. From some experience years back doing regression and calculating PER etc. Wilt would be the far away leader in PER had all stats been tracked in his time. Young Kareem would be second and then MJ, Lebron and everyone else.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi from 2016-2020: 122 offensive rating, 104 defensive rating per 100 possessions

Jordan from 1988-1992: 120 offensive rating, 103 defensive rating per 100 possessions

Kawhi has the better offensive rating despite being in a much more stacked league and facing defensive anchors like Joel Embiid, Draymond Green, Giannis, Marc Gasol.

[AirBonner]

Kawhi from 2016-2020: 122 offensive rating, 104 defensive rating per 100 possessions

Jordan from 1988-1992: 120 offensive rating, 103 defensive rating per 100 possessions

Kawhi has the better offensive rating despite being in a much more stacked league and facing defensive anchors like Joel Embiid, Draymond Green, Giannis, Marc Gasol.
Quoted for reference purposes

[Micku]

I'm not a big fan of stats like PER, BPM, VORP and WS. They all use basic boxscore stats in different ways but they all just aggregate them using different coefficients for each metric. IIRC, for example PER weighs every assist as 0.67 (2/3) of a point and BPM weighs each assist as 0.5 points. All of them are based on regression analyses on boxscore stats but serve basically no purpose if you scan the entire basic boxscore with your own eyes. You don't get any new information from those stats.

To make things even worse in terms of comparing eras, prior to 77-78 there were no individual turnovers tracked and prior to 73-74 no blocks, no steals and no differentiation between defensive and offensive rebounds. For all players prior to 77-78 these stats are calculated differently and as such cannot be compared to players since. Thus someone like Wilt having two seasons in the top 10 all-time means very little because his PER is calculated differently. From some experience years back doing regression and calculating PER etc. Wilt would be the far away leader in PER had all stats been tracked in his time. Young Kareem would be second and then MJ, Lebron and everyone else.

That's fair. And every stat that we use isn't perfect and have to be used within context.

Even when comparing the raw stats between LeBron and MJ, isn't really fair. The rules changed so much and the styles of play change. They are not operating with the same equipment, culture, or rules.

We can talk about skills like shooting, footwork, passing and other fundamentals. Some stuff is subjective. Like you can say LeBron is a better finisher than MJ, right? But MJ had to deal with more paint presence and rim protection due to style of play back then. And etc, etc. We don't really know how would one be better than the other in this regard. Although fun to argue, you won't really get anywhere. And it probably isn't relevant to the topic.

The best way to compare is how dominate they were in their respective era to each other. But imo, LeBron is still the only perimeter player that comes close in terms of perimeter player. It just depends on the years.

2009 for both RS and PO. 2012 was solid, but not quite MJ. 2013 for regular season. 2016-2018 for POs, but not the best defensively.

[light]

Obviously LeBron.

He's better than Jordan at everything.

[DoctorP]

The answer is Harden.

[light]

The problem with peak MJ is that he never won until expansion diluted talent and the dynasties of the 80's collapsed. Then after he was gifted Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant and Phil Jackson he was free to beat up on the scrub-filled teams of the 90's.

If Jordan had to play in our non-expansion era he probably would have 2 titles or so, like Kobe post 2004.

[Axe]

Kawhi from 2016-2020: 122 offensive rating, 104 defensive rating per 100 possessions

Jordan from 1988-1992: 120 offensive rating, 103 defensive rating per 100 possessions

Kawhi has the better offensive rating despite being in a much more stacked league and facing defensive anchors like Joel Embiid, Draymond Green, Giannis, Marc Gasol.
Also the guy who blew a very 3-1 lead against 7'1 brian windhorst in last year's wcsf

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Quoted for reference purposes

And he wasn't handcuffed to Scottie Pippen his entire life. Stopped two different 3 peats (made lebron and durant both leave their franchises).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Also the guy who blew a very 3-1 lead against 7'1 brian windhorst in last year's wcsf

That series went 7 games though. Jordan lost in 6 games during the 1995 season.

[Axe]

That series went 7 games though. Jordan lost in 6 games during the 1995 season.
Don't care, since his team never took any leads for the rest of the series and weren't favorites as well. Unlike the favored flippers and in game 7, the choke bros crapped their pants while getting annihilated by windhorst and co.

[dankok8]

That's fair. And every stat that we use isn't perfect and have to be used within context.

Even when comparing the raw stats between LeBron and MJ, isn't really fair. The rules changed so much and the styles of play change. They are not operating with the same equipment, culture, or rules.

We can talk about skills like shooting, footwork, passing and other fundamentals. Some stuff is subjective. Like you can say LeBron is a better finisher than MJ, right? But MJ had to deal with more paint presence and rim protection due to style of play back then. And etc, etc. We don't really know how would one be better than the other in this regard. Although fun to argue, you won't really get anywhere. And it probably isn't relevant to the topic.

The best way to compare is how dominate they were in their respective era to each other. But imo, LeBron is still the only perimeter player that comes close in terms of perimeter player. It just depends on the years.

2009 for both RS and PO. 2012 was solid, but not quite MJ. 2013 for regular season. 2016-2018 for POs, but not the best defensively.

Well I think you and I and a few other people are kind of arguing semantics as well. Same tier or different tier is where we started and that's kind of arbitrary anyways. Like you said MJ is better and in the same tier which is also agreeable to me.

I didn't mean to say that no player ever played on the level of peak MJ. Obviously players have insane games, insane stretches, even insane seasons (like Lebron 2009) but MJ was insane for so many years years straight in a way no other perimeter player matched before or since.

It only makes sense to compare relative to eras like you said. And when you do that another thing that hurts Lebron's argument is in the last 4-5 years he has put up great stats but so have KD, Curry, Kawhi, Harden etc. They've all put up stats that are much closer to Lebron's stats than any of Jordan's contemporaries put up stats close to Jordan.

MJ was clearly more dominant relative to his era...

With regards to somewhat subjective stuff like rules etc. There are facts around them as well. For instance the average finishing % at the rim has risen a lot from the late 90's to today indicating that it's generally easier to score at the rim today. I think it might have been you who made a thread on that recently? I could be mistaken.

I can agree that Lebron comes the closest to Jordan in terms of level of play. Closest... but still a good way behind him. With all else being equal prime MJ gave 5-6 ppg more which is really a lot.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Don't care, since his team never took any leads for the rest of the series and weren't favorites as well. Unlike the favored flippers and in game 7, the choke bros crapped their pants while getting annihilated by windhorst and co.

Jordan and Pippen in the 90s were always favorites you idiot, they never lost 6-0 in finals. 1995 was also just 2 years after they were coming off a 3peat.

Jokic windhorst jokes are a little ironic since he's putting up GOAT level numbers this season but ok.

Kawhi dominated game 5 and dominated game 6, that's two close out games they could of won. That's the supporting casts fault, not kawhi. The series also still went to 7 and not 6 like 95 Jordan. Also Jordan was on the ultimate load management that season, he played like 10 games hahahha

[Axe]

Jordan and Pippen in the 90s were always favorites you idiot, they never lost 6-0 in finals. 1995 was also just 2 years after they were coming off a 3peat.

Jokic windhorst jokes are a little ironic since he's putting up GOAT level numbers this season but ok.

Kawhi dominated game 5 and dominated game 6, that's two close out games they could of won. That's the supporting casts fault, not kawhi. The series also still went to 7 and not 6 like 95 Jordan. Also Jordan was on the ultimate load management that season, he played like 10 games hahahha
Meltdown. Baldan was coming off from his detention (gambling) for one and a half season but when he came back to play, it didn't necessarily mean they're the faves during that year. That's kinda silly. And close games, you say? The flippers already had a big chance to close them and succeed to what would have been their first wcf trip ever, against their crosstown rivals but wtf happened? They blew it all up and face it, bitch. You did kind of celebrate prematurely when they were up 3-1 against the nuggets and thought it wasn't over yet, didn't you? Now it came back to screw you lmfao. You even promised that you'll finally leave this board after the inevitable happened but you never did. You just keep on going with those stupid alibis concerning your hero. That's why you have no credibility at all whatsoever. :confusedshrug:

[Micku]

Well I think you and I and a few other people are kind of arguing semantics as well. Same tier or different tier is where we started and that's kind of arbitrary anyways. Like you said MJ is better and in the same tier which is also agreeable to me.

I didn't mean to say that no player ever played on the level of peak MJ. Obviously players have insane games, insane stretches, even insane seasons (like Lebron 2009) but MJ was insane for so many years years straight in a way no other perimeter player matched before or since.

It only makes sense to compare relative to eras like you said. And when you do that another thing that hurts Lebron's argument is in the last 4-5 years he has put up great stats but so have KD, Curry, Kawhi, Harden etc. They've all put up stats that are much closer to Lebron's stats than any of Jordan's contemporaries put up stats close to Jordan.

MJ was clearly more dominant relative to his era...

With regards to somewhat subjective stuff like rules etc. There are facts around them as well. For instance the average finishing % at the rim has risen a lot from the late 90's to today indicating that it's generally easier to score at the rim today. I think it might have been you who made a thread on that recently? I could be mistaken.

I can agree that Lebron comes the closest to Jordan in terms of level of play. Closest... but still a good way behind him. With all else being equal prime MJ gave 5-6 ppg more which is really a lot.

Oh definitely MJ was more dominant in his era.

I guess the counter argument would be that LeBron dealt with more talent, but that's not true either. 88 when he won MVP had crazy seasons from Bird, Magic, Barkley, Karl Malone, Clyde, Wilkins and Hakeem (tho not his best season, he was still a beast). Like the older I get, the more I think 88 season for MJ gets more impressive. And the whole 88-93 stretch. Like he was top 5 in DTRG there in 88. As a guard. I don't know how many times that happened, but it must be rare. And his motor was insane. The stamina was out of this world. Guarding the best player, great off the ball defense and helping, fighting through screens, and etc. The best blks for a guard. Lead the league in steals. All the while scoring 35 ppg on above 50%. While he gambled on the steals, he was probably the best I seen at it.

And yeah, it was me who made that thread about rim protection. I probably should've named it something else. I was trying to explain why I think it happened by each major event that cause the league to change it's play styles and rules. I mentioned earlier in the thread that nobody really touched MJ till the rules made it easier for perimeter players to score. The spacing really helps LeBron play style. Offense in general is at crazy high right now due to rules and more emphasis on efficient offense.

I feel like this simultaneously show greatness of both players tho. The reason why for LeBron, he stands out among his peers. Out played them in terms longevity (Wade, Carmelo, etc) even though they had the same advantages. And he regularly was able to stay consistent and hide his weakness with his insane athletic ability and IQ. It's like Kareem, but better. Because as good as Kareem was, he wasn't arguably the best player in the league. Him and Magic were like 1a or 1b, but it was Bird's league at that point. But with MJ, he played in league in league that was kind'a the opposite of LeBron. It went from high pace to slow pace while LeBron went from a somewhat slow pace to a high pace. In other words, LeBron played in league that was more defensive to offensive efficiency while MJ played from fastbreak efficient offensive league to a slow and grind out defensive league. The Bulls was ahead of the curve and played at a slow pace before it became popular in the 90s to do so. And he still played great in a stronger defensive league where big men ruled. But both showed they were the best. Although with LeBron less so cuz KD and Curry 16. LeBron coasted in the RS while MJ was always MJ and got better in the POs.

And even with the MJ like stars like Kobe, T-Mac, Wade, and AI, I feel like LeBron is the only one is the closest one to MJ when it comes to individual dominance. Wade was great tho. T-Mac was smooth. Kobe had the skills, probably equal to MJ, but lack the shot selection, athletic ability and the motor. Kobe was probably the closest before LeBron, but not in stats.

I did forget about James Harden tho. I have blind hatred towards his play style, but his RS stuff I feel like matches up MJ offensive. But the playoffs. Haha, naw. But I'm a bias hater till he retires or joins my team.

Anyway, I won't argue if you think MJ 88-93 was the best stretch. I think so too. We do just debate on semantics. And we might disagree on impact. Because I think LeBron had similar impact as MJ. I just think it's much more spread out than a yearly basis like MJ was.

There was always something missing from LeBron. Like one year, he was great offensively, but not defensively. Or coasted in the RS, but great PO. Or he was great in RS, but not as great in the PO. Except in 09.

[Stephonit]

Curry is the only answer and arguably better. 5 finals appearances to Jordan's 3. Regular season and playoffs team records. Took a team with longer odds to a title. Unanimous MVP. Sure Jordan has more eye-popping box score numbers but he played more minutes and the small number of plus-minus reconstructions out there don't give him an advantage.

Just consider this: James Harden might have a case against Jordan too with his box score production but when it mattered when they faced each other it was Curry who got the job done each and every time.

[Axe]

Curry is the only answer and arguably better. 5 finals appearances to Jordan's 3. Regular season and playoffs team records. Took a team with longer odds to a title. Unanimous MVP. Sure Jordan has more eye-popping box score numbers but he played more minutes and the small number of plus-minus reconstructions out there don't give him an advantage.

Just consider this: James Harden might have a case against Jordan too with his box score production but when it mattered when they faced each other it was Curry who got the job done each and every time.
Really? So how many finals mvp in the process? He could have had at least one, right?

[2much_knowledge]

Obviously LeBron.

He's better than Jordan at everything.

Had i rough day, and needed a good laugh. Thank you

[8Ball]

Obviously LeBron.

He's better than Jordan at everything.

Quoted for truth.

[8Ball]

8Ball, don't continue that debate with me unless you want to get embarrassed. I've seen your posts, you can't hang with me.

Not 1 MVP. Sit you ass down. How dominant can Load Management be if he was at home nursing a thigh bruise :roll:

[Manny98]

30+ PER championship runs

LeBron 3 (12,16,20)
Jordan 2 ( 91,93)
Shaq 1 (2000)

Everyone else had zero

Jordan at his absolute best was better than Lebron at his absolute best but not by much they're basically on the same tier

But Lebron had a way longer prime than MJ so he was able to sustain his level of dominance for much longer

Even today Lebron is still in the best in the world conversation which is what makes what Lebron is doing so impressive as no other player was this good in their 18th season

[Stephonit]

Really? So how many finals mvp in the process? He could have had at least one, right?

A tacked on popularity award that they give out every year. On the other hand how many have faced and defeated every other All-NBA First Team player in the same year in the playoffs? Or faced and defeated the two closest MVPs to him in time playing against him simultaneously in a series? Name the other players who have done either and when they did it. I cannot think of another case. Curry's accomplishments are singular and exceptional. So exceptional that even if an FMVP was all that it was made out to be (which it most certainly isn't) it would be a lesser achievement in comparison to what he has done.

[Kblaze8855]

Curry is the only answer and arguably better. 5 finals appearances to Jordan's 3. Regular season and playoffs team records. Took a team with longer odds to a title. Unanimous MVP. Sure Jordan has more eye-popping box score numbers but he played more minutes and the small number of plus-minus reconstructions out there don't give him an advantage.

Just consider this: James Harden might have a case against Jordan too with his box score production but when it mattered when they faced each other it was Curry who got the job done each and every time.

As much as you hate it Kevin Durant was widely seen as the better player and closer when they played together and there is little to be done about that.

Haters might say Kyrie was better than Lebron or Parker better than Duncan but it was never a widely held belief by many people worth listening to. Kevin Durant as the best warrior was a perfectly normal opinion held by people who were in the game.

Just the way it is. It’s hard to get best peak talk as your teams number 2....or even a strong 1B like Kobe was in 01 and 02.

You’re the man or you aren’t and Steph wasn’t necessarily the man for 3 years of the 5 in question. It was his team in an abstract way but he wasn’t playing flat out better ball than his teammate especially considering defense. And in the finals it was clear a couple times who the team deferred to and that doesn’t help either.


This is like if Lebron and Wade played together from 08 on instead of 2010 or like peak Shaq getting 06-10 Kobe instead of 99-02. Two guys at the top of their game together instead of one at his peak and the other declining or being on the rise.

Hard to give either best run status on the same team at the same time. KD looms too large when the actual games get played.

[Stephonit]

As much as you hate it Kevin Durant was widely seen as the better player and closer when they played together and there is little to be done about that.

Haters might say Kyrie was better than Lebron or Parker better than Duncan but it was never a widely held belief by many people worth listening to. Kevin Durant as the best warrior was a perfectly normal opinion held by people who were in the game.

Just the way it is. It’s hard to get best peak talk as your teams number 2....or even a strong 1B like Kobe was in 01 and 02.

You’re the man or you aren’t and Steph wasn’t necessarily the man for 3 years of the 5 in question. It was his team in an abstract way but he wasn’t playing flat out better ball than his teammate especially considering defense. And in the finals it was clear a couple times who the team deferred to and that doesn’t help either.


This is like if Lebron and Wade played together from 08 on instead of 2010 or like peak Shaq getting 06-10 Kobe instead of 99-02. Two guys at the top of their game together instead of one at his peak and the other declining or being on the rise.

Hard to give either best run status on the same team at the same time. KD looms too large when the actual games get played.

KD needed the spotlight and Steph stepped back to let him shine. I'm utterly baffled though by the suggestion he was the man. KD misses 22 games in 2017 and the Warriors go 17-5 including a 13-0 stretch without him—a 65-win pace. Steph goes down, however, and the Warriors barely hover above 50%. The Warriors were something like 30 wins to 3 losses at one point without KD.

But that's only the regular season you say? Steph faced KD in 2016 in the playoffs. Did you guys forget how that turned out?

Cannot get best peak talk when there's a guy like KD around? Well we're talking about a team talked about as the best ever so no that limitation doesn't really apply. Curry led a historic team without KD and continued to do so with him. If being teamed up with another top 30 player is disqualifying there are a whole list of players that are disqualified—entire eras are disqualified.

[dankok8]

Oh definitely MJ was more dominant in his era.

I guess the counter argument would be that LeBron dealt with more talent, but that's not true either. 88 when he won MVP had crazy seasons from Bird, Magic, Barkley, Karl Malone, Clyde, Wilkins and Hakeem (tho not his best season, he was still a beast). Like the older I get, the more I think 88 season for MJ gets more impressive. And the whole 88-93 stretch. Like he was top 5 in DTRG there in 88. As a guard. I don't know how many times that happened, but it must be rare. And his motor was insane. The stamina was out of this world. Guarding the best player, great off the ball defense and helping, fighting through screens, and etc. The best blks for a guard. Lead the league in steals. All the while scoring 35 ppg on above 50%. While he gambled on the steals, he was probably the best I seen at it.

And yeah, it was me who made that thread about rim protection. I probably should've named it something else. I was trying to explain why I think it happened by each major event that cause the league to change it's play styles and rules. I mentioned earlier in the thread that nobody really touched MJ till the rules made it easier for perimeter players to score. The spacing really helps LeBron play style. Offense in general is at crazy high right now due to rules and more emphasis on efficient offense.

I feel like this simultaneously show greatness of both players tho. The reason why for LeBron, he stands out among his peers. Out played them in terms longevity (Wade, Carmelo, etc) even though they had the same advantages. And he regularly was able to stay consistent and hide his weakness with his insane athletic ability and IQ. It's like Kareem, but better. Because as good as Kareem was, he wasn't arguably the best player in the league. Him and Magic were like 1a or 1b, but it was Bird's league at that point. But with MJ, he played in league in league that was kind'a the opposite of LeBron. It went from high pace to slow pace while LeBron went from a somewhat slow pace to a high pace. In other words, LeBron played in league that was more defensive to offensive efficiency while MJ played from fastbreak efficient offensive league to a slow and grind out defensive league. The Bulls was ahead of the curve and played at a slow pace before it became popular in the 90s to do so. And he still played great in a stronger defensive league where big men ruled. But both showed they were the best. Although with LeBron less so cuz KD and Curry 16. LeBron coasted in the RS while MJ was always MJ and got better in the POs.

And even with the MJ like stars like Kobe, T-Mac, Wade, and AI, I feel like LeBron is the only one is the closest one to MJ when it comes to individual dominance. Wade was great tho. T-Mac was smooth. Kobe had the skills, probably equal to MJ, but lack the shot selection, athletic ability and the motor. Kobe was probably the closest before LeBron, but not in stats.

I did forget about James Harden tho. I have blind hatred towards his play style, but his RS stuff I feel like matches up MJ offensive. But the playoffs. Haha, naw. But I'm a bias hater till he retires or joins my team.

Anyway, I won't argue if you think MJ 88-93 was the best stretch. I think so too. We do just debate on semantics. And we might disagree on impact. Because I think LeBron had similar impact as MJ. I just think it's much more spread out than a yearly basis like MJ was.

There was always something missing from LeBron. Like one year, he was great offensively, but not defensively. Or coasted in the RS, but great PO. Or he was great in RS, but not as great in the PO. Except in 09.

What you said is bang on pretty much. During MJ's entire stretch from 1987-1993 the league was absolutely stacked with talent.

For instance in 1991, the other best players in the league were Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Isiah, Dominique, Drexler, KJ, Stockton... I just listed off like 12 guys there and all of them absolute all-time greats. Bird was already on the decline and maybe Isiah. But Magic, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone and Robinson all in their primes plus other guys? That's ridiculous competition.

You said Lebron's impact is spread out. I don't want to discuss longevity because it kind of derails this thread but if Lebron needs more years to have similar impact then that proves that his peak/prime isn't as good.

[dankok8]

When I researched perimeter peaks for my article I was shocked at exactly how great Jerry West's numbers were. Always knew he had some huge playoff series but his consistency was pretty insane. Taking his 1965-1970 stretch...

Season: 29.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 6.4 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 57.0 %TS (+7.7 rTS) with ? topg in 40.4 mpg

Playoffs: 32.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 6.6 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 55.9 %TS (+6.6 rTS) with ? topg in 42.8 mpg

Finals: 33.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 55.6 %TS (+6.3 rTS) with ? topg in 44.5 mpg

Considering he was also a really good defender, I would say he has a case that his peak is maybe the closest to Jordan ever. Unfortunately we don't have his steals, blocks and turnovers.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

When I researched perimeter peaks for my article I was shocked at exactly how great Jerry West's numbers were. Always knew he had some huge playoff series but his consistency was pretty insane. Taking his 1965-1970 stretch...

Season: 29.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 6.4 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 57.0 %TS (+7.7 rTS) with ? topg in 40.4 mpg

Playoffs: 32.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 6.6 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 55.9 %TS (+6.6 rTS) with ? topg in 42.8 mpg

Finals: 33.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 55.6 %TS (+6.3 rTS) with ? topg in 44.5 mpg

Considering he was also a really good defender, I would say he has a case that his peak is maybe the closest to Jordan ever. Unfortunately we don't have his steals, blocks and turnovers.

How could he be closest to Jordan when he's the opposite of Jordan? He loses every finals. He's a huge loser who can't even win a ring when there's like 7 teams in the league. Even when he finally did win, his advanced stats were shit and Bill Russell was no longer in the league. Kawhi would kill Jerry West if he guarded him.

[8Ball]

Jerry West played against milk men.

Box score numbers vs 60s players are meaningless when trying to compare to players today.

Even JR Smith @ 40 years old can go to China and average 27/7/7.

[dankok8]

Jerry West played against milk men.

Box score numbers vs 60s players are meaningless when trying to compare to players today.

Even JR Smith @ 40 years old can go to China and average 27/7/7.

What if those milk men are allowed to handcheck and exert a lot of contact. And if they push you or even punch you or hit you in the head, no flagrants. And when you dribble your hand has to be above the ball at all times.

Do those things have any effect?

[Micku]

Jerry West is a good choice tho in terms of perimeter players stretches. Especially relative to the era. His finals numbers were crazy. He's another guy that step up his game in the playoffs from the RS. I would toss in Rick Barry there too for the first three years.

Elign Baylor for sure. Pre injury. So like....59-63 or 64? Probably one of most underrated or under appreciated players.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What if those milk men are allowed to handcheck and exert a lot of contact. And if they push you or even punch you or hit you in the head, no flagrants. And when you dribble your hand has to be above the ball at all times.

Do those things have any effect?

What perimeter stars was Jerry West facing though? Mostly UPS drivers. Walt Frazier is the only one I can think of and he owned Jerry West in the 1970 finals. Name me some other perimeter stars that West was facing.

[dankok8]

Jerry West is a good choice tho in terms of perimeter players stretches. Especially relative to the era. His finals numbers were crazy. He's another guy that step up his game in the playoffs from the RS. I would toss in Rick Barry there too for the first three years.

Elign Baylor for sure. Pre injury. So like....59-63 or 64? Probably one of most underrated or under appreciated players.

I don't think Baylor belongs. He wasn't efficient and didn't pass and defend like Jerry would later.

[hateraid]

What you said is bang on pretty much. During MJ's entire stretch from 1987-1993 the league was absolutely stacked with talent.

For instance in 1991, the other best players in the league were Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Isiah, Dominique, Drexler, KJ, Stockton... I just listed off like 12 guys there and all of them absolute all-time greats. Bird was already on the decline and maybe Isiah. But Magic, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone and Robinson all in their primes plus other guys? That's ridiculous competition.

You said Lebron's impact is spread out. I don't want to discuss longevity because it kind of derails this thread but if Lebron needs more years to have similar impact then that proves that his peak/prime isn't as good.

On an individual aspect sure. Teams weren't stacked. Most of those players didn't have a 1B or quality second Banana. The league got diluted as well.

[Hey Yo]

A tacked on popularity award that they give out every year. On the other hand how many have faced and defeated every other All-NBA First Team player in the same year in the playoffs? Or faced and defeated the two closest MVPs to him in time playing against him simultaneously in a series? Name the other players who have done either and when they did it. I cannot think of another case. Curry's accomplishments are singular and exceptional. So exceptional that even if an FMVP was all that it was made out to be (which it most certainly isn't) it would be a lesser achievement in comparison to what he has done.
So the FMVP is a popularity award and the regular season MVP isn't??

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not 1 MVP. Sit you ass down. How dominant can Load Management be if he was at home nursing a thigh bruise :roll:

He was busy scoring 732 points on 62% TS, while Lebron was at home watching him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

As much as you hate it Kevin Durant was widely seen as the better player and closer when they played together and there is little to be done about that.

Haters might say Kyrie was better than Lebron or Parker better than Duncan but it was never a widely held belief by many people worth listening to. Kevin Durant as the best warrior was a perfectly normal opinion held by people who were in the game.

Just the way it is. It’s hard to get best peak talk as your teams number 2....or even a strong 1B like Kobe was in 01 and 02.

You’re the man or you aren’t and Steph wasn’t necessarily the man for 3 years of the 5 in question. It was his team in an abstract way but he wasn’t playing flat out better ball than his teammate especially considering defense. And in the finals it was clear a couple times who the team deferred to and that doesn’t help either.


This is like if Lebron and Wade played together from 08 on instead of 2010 or like peak Shaq getting 06-10 Kobe instead of 99-02. Two guys at the top of their game together instead of one at his peak and the other declining or being on the rise.

Hard to give either best run status on the same team at the same time. KD looms too large when the actual games get played.

The Durant\Curry Warriors are an extremely overrated playoff team anyway. Everybody acts like they ran through every team they saw. You beat Spurs when Kawhi wasn't even playing and you were down 2-3 in the series until Chris Paul got injured. So basically beat the 1 man Lamarcus Aldridge Spurs and the 1 man Harden Rockets during five different west finals wins. No adversity, no nothing. Handed to them.

Raptors in 2019 were down 1-2 in the series vs 76ers and down 0-2 in the series vs Bucks. A team that can overcome adversity like that is more impressive then a team that looks great on paper.

[AirBonner]

Kawhi > MJ

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi > MJ

Agreed. Enough worship of Michael Baldan.

OP, you like defensive players anyway. You should appreciate Scottie Pippen then, who is the short version of Kevin Garnett.

[8Ball]

He was busy scoring 732 points on 62% TS, while Lebron was at home watching him.

LeBron = 35k all time points.

Load Management = 10K all time points.

Wanna run the numbers for rebounds and assists too?

Bringing a dull blade to a bazooka fight :roll:

[8Ball]

Man shitting on Kawhi just doesn't feel satisfying to me.

Like a Lion eating a small mouse.

[Gudo]

Interesting thread. Thanks for your inputs and balanced posts dankok8, micku, kuniva_damighty, and bizil.

[AirBonner]

Kawhi won with multiple casts. He wasn’t chained to one teammate (Pippen) like balden

[Axe]

A tacked on popularity award that they give out every year. On the other hand how many have faced and defeated every other All-NBA First Team player in the same year in the playoffs? Or faced and defeated the two closest MVPs to him in time playing against him simultaneously in a series? Name the other players who have done either and when they did it. I cannot think of another case. Curry's accomplishments are singular and exceptional. So exceptional that even if an FMVP was all that it was made out to be (which it most certainly isn't) it would be a lesser achievement in comparison to what he has done.
Touché. I suppose this is why they handed him over the nick teens/kids choice award trophy blimp at least three times and was a runner-up for more than thrice as well. And even if he's yet to have an iconic moment in the playoffs, it should be good enough for him to grab the last spot in mount rushmore, i suppose.

[Axe]

So the FMVP is a popularity award and the regular season MVP isn't??
Apparently teens/kids choice awards from channels like cartoon network, disney or nickelodeon are more iconic nowadays than either of those media-created awards which aren't considered significant anymore.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Interesting thread. Thanks for your inputs and balanced posts dankok8, micku, kuniva_damighty, and bizil.

Appreciate that.

I'll say that my use of advanced stats might be annoying to some, but they definitely serve purpose. For example "BPM" might scare off posters who only understand raw stats. :oldlol: If they read up on it though they'd understand quick just how reliable it is.

More or less its your total box adjusted per 100 possessions. One hundred which is the average per team. This is ideal because you don't have to worry much about pace. Sure rules are different depending on the era you're talking about, but using BPM (everything is rate) is less of a headache than comparing unadjusted raw numbers. I wouldn't strictly use it for defense because blocks and steals aren't the only way you measure that end. On offense though? Why hate an all-in one thumb stat?

The results are pretty good with elite players fairing well.

RPM is even better, but only goes back to 97. Along with a boxscore this tracks play-by-play and hand tracking. More details equal better analytics along with a better understanding of impact.

[Micku]

Appreciate that.

I'll say that my use of advanced stats might be annoying to some, but they definitely serve purpose. For example "BPM" might scare off posters who only understand raw stats. :oldlol: If they read up on it though they'd understand quick just how reliable it is.

More or less its your total box adjusted per 100 possessions. One hundred which is the average per team. This is ideal because you don't have to worry much about pace. Sure rules are different depending on the era you're talking about, but using BPM (everything is rate) is less of a headache than comparing unadjusted raw numbers. I wouldn't strictly use it for defense because blocks and steals aren't the only way you measure that end. On offense though? Why hate an all-in one thumb stat?

The results are pretty good with elite players fairing well.

RPM is even better, but only goes back to 97. Along with a boxscore this tracks play-by-play and hand tracking. More details equal better analytics along with a better understanding of impact.

Yeah dude. I also appreciate it Gudo.

I would also you say you gott'a use it within context. It's not like you can use BPM to really say who is the best in the league. Just more how much impact a player has on that specific team, in that specific season. But not who is the best player in the league. And it also depends on lineup and match ups. Like the coach could have a good player in their worst line up constantly, but do so to not get so down in pts or not to get blown out. There are some other advance stats like usage rate, and ppl use it wrong all the time thinking it's like time of oppression. Skip Bayless and Shannon incorrectly used it that way too. And there are other stats like RPM, like you said that do play by play. There are other sites that have different stats to indicate an impact of a player.

Regardless, MJ and LeBron are the cream of the crop in almost all advance stats. Some stats, MJ beat LeBron. Others LBJ beats MJ. Some stats like VORP, LeBron is ahead due to longevity. Some like BPM, MJ is ahead career wise. Etc, etc. But advance stats aren't everything.

There are things that players do that aren't within the stats, and you could only see by watching the game closely. And there other subjective stuff, rules, defense, the way the game is played and etc. While stats don't lie, they could often mislead if you use it wrong. You gott'a be careful when comparing it across eras with some stats.

[dankok8]

Advanced Stats Comparison:

1987-1993 Jordan

Season: 30.4 PER, 0.285 WS/48, 11.4 BPM
Playoffs: 29.8 PER, 0.264 WS/48, 12.2 BPM

2012-2018 Lebron

Season: 28,7 PER, 0.252 WS/48, 9.1 BPM
Playoffs: 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48, 10.4 BPM

It's a clean sweep for MJ in all these metrics. I would never use these stats but just including them for those who care about them! LOL

[dankok8]

Appreciate that.

I'll say that my use of advanced stats might be annoying to some, but they definitely serve purpose. For example "BPM" might scare off posters who only understand raw stats. :oldlol: If they read up on it though they'd understand quick just how reliable it is.

More or less its your total box adjusted per 100 possessions. One hundred which is the average per team. This is ideal because you don't have to worry much about pace. Sure rules are different depending on the era you're talking about, but using BPM (everything is rate) is less of a headache than comparing unadjusted raw numbers. I wouldn't strictly use it for defense because blocks and steals aren't the only way you measure that end. On offense though? Why hate an all-in one thumb stat?

The results are pretty good with elite players fairing well.

RPM is even better, but only goes back to 97. Along with a boxscore this tracks play-by-play and hand tracking. More details equal better analytics along with a better understanding of impact.

The reason to hate all-in one thumb stats is because they use somewhat arbitrary weights for boxscore stats. For instance PER weighs each assist as 0.67 of a point and BPM weighs it as 0.5 of a point. Why those values and why are they different if regressions were used to determine average assist values? Mind you if you change 0.67 to something like 0.60 in the PER the formula the all-time leaders list looks very different.

That's why I don't like those stats. I don't think they show much. Doesn't matter that MJ is number 1 in most Advanced Stats which validates them (?) but they are still useless IMO.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah dude. I also appreciate it Gudo.

I would also you say you gott'a use it within context. It's not like you can use BPM to really say who is the best in the league. Just more how much impact a player has on that specific team, in that specific season. But not who is the best player in the league. And it also depends on lineup and match ups. Like the coach could have a good player in their worst line up constantly, but do so to not get so down in pts or not to get blown out. There are some other advance stats like usage rate, and ppl use it wrong all the time thinking it's like time of oppression. Skip Bayless and Shannon incorrectly used it that way too. And there are other stats like RPM, like you said that do play by play. There are other sites that have different stats to indicate an impact of a player.

Regardless, MJ and LeBron are the cream of the crop in almost all advance stats. Some stats, MJ beat LeBron. Others LBJ beats MJ. Some stats like VORP, LeBron is ahead due to longevity. Some like BPM, MJ is ahead career wise. Etc, etc. But advance stats aren't everything.

There are things that players do that aren't within the stats, and you could only see by watching the game closely. And there other subjective stuff, rules, defense, the way the game is played and etc. While stats don't lie, they could often mislead if you use it wrong. You gott'a be careful when comparing it across eras with some stats.

Agreed.

How you impact your teams' success should be the standard though. Its a team sport and BITW is blurred by different criterias. For me "best" is that player who passes the eye test first. So skills and dominance always take precedence. Then I get into the impact stuff or the effectiveness that player has on their club. Raw numbers are deadlast on my agenda. That wasn't always the case but after seeing the decline in regular-season defense and Westbrook's TD fiasco nobody will convince me otherwise.

A higher BPM doesn't always mean better player though. No doubt. What if that guy has to do more for his team than someone playing on a loaded club? They have a larger burden but again it doesn't just make them better. That was always the argument from Kobe fans back in 08-10. They argued that because Kobe played in a system with a championship cast, he didn't get to rack up numbers like Bron did in Cleveland. Not a bad argument. But as we've seen over the years, good team or bad, Bron rates fairly well every year.

Good call on the mishandling of USG btw. See it all the time. I don't like 3ball but he's one of the FEW posters here that actually understands time of possession. He posts correct data from NBA's official tracker. How long you actually have the ball in hand. Not BBall-refs "usage" which is only your box converted into a percentage.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Advanced Stats Comparison:

1987-1993 Jordan

Season: 30.4 PER, 0.285 WS/48, 11.4 BPM
Playoffs: 29.8 PER, 0.264 WS/48, 12.2 BPM

2012-2018 Lebron

Season: 28,7 PER, 0.252 WS/48, 9.1 BPM
Playoffs: 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48, 10.4 BPM

It's a clean sweep for MJ in all these metrics. I would never use these stats but just including them for those who care about them! LOL

:confusedshrug:

Jordan was better, sure. But don't pretend these numbers aren't in the same tier. Or that prime Bron never "approached" Jordan.


The reason to hate all-in one thumb stats is because they use somewhat arbitrary weights for boxscore stats. For instance PER weighs each assist as 0.67 of a point and BPM weighs it as 0.5 of a point. Why those values and why are they different if regressions were used to determine average assist values? Mind you if you change 0.67 to something like 0.60 in the PER the formula the all-time leaders list looks very different.

That's why I don't like those stats. I don't think they show much. Doesn't matter that MJ is number 1 in most Advanced Stats which validates them (?) but they are still useless IMO.

PER is definitely flawed, but I am talking about BPM. It is by far more reliable than ANY regression box stat. Unlike BPM and RPM, the values for PER are bloated and there are no positional. role or team adjustments. Basically things that go outside a box score.

in BPM assists are worth more for a big or post player than a PG. Since point guards handle the ball all the time they get lower value assists. A big's assist is usually higher value so this is where regression kicks in. Rebounding is weird, but for bigmen a rebound is static. For guards, offensive rebounds are valuable. Steals and blocks are both worth more for smaller players than for post players. Fouls are a negative for both guards and bigs (fouls are not calculated in PER). Points are static for every position.

Not everyone will agree with the placed values for these categories. but BPM 2.0 is pretty fair. If you read up on it they explain their reasonings and detail why each value was assigned. Again not perfect. Still better than spewing raw numbers across eras, and acting like that is legit analysis.

[dankok8]

:confusedshrug:

Jordan was better, sure. But don't pretend these numbers aren't in the same tier. Or that prime Bron never "approached" Jordan.



PER is definitely flawed, but I am talking about BPM. It is by far more reliable than ANY regression box stat. Unlike BPM and RPM, the values for PER are bloated and there are no positional. role or team adjustments. Basically things that go outside a box score.

in BPM assists are worth more for a big or post player than a PG. Since point guards handle the ball all the time they get lower value assists. A big's assist is usually higher value so this is where regression kicks in. Rebounding is weird, but for bigmen a rebound is static. For guards, offensive rebounds are valuable. Steals and blocks are both worth more for smaller players than for post players. Fouls are a negative for both guards and bigs (fouls are not calculated in PER). Points are static for every position.

Not everyone will agree with the placed values for these categories. but BPM 2.0 is pretty fair. If you read up on it they explain their reasonings and detail why each value was assigned. Again not perfect. Still better than spewing raw numbers across eras, and acting like that is legit analysis.

Funny enough BPM is the one Advanced Stat where MJ dominates Lebron. 11.4 to 9.1 edge in the regular season, 12.2 to 10.4 edge in the playoffs.

Still a good statistic should be good not just for determining the #1 and #2 player ever but beyond that. When I see Chris Paul is 5th all time in BPM and Stockton is 8th all time, it really destroys its credibility. Note that BPM is a rate stat and doesn't reward longevity so those kind of results are really bad.


A higher BPM doesn't always mean better player though. No doubt. What if that guy has to do more for his team than someone playing on a loaded club? They have a larger burden but again it doesn't just make them better. That was always the argument from Kobe fans back in 08-10. They argued that because Kobe played in a system with a championship cast, he didn't get to rack up numbers like Bron did in Cleveland. Not a bad argument. But as we've seen over the years, good team or bad, Bron rates fairly well every year.

Bron rates fairly well but actually his numbers drop off more noticeably on good teams compared to Jordan's. If we use titles in championships runs only, Jordan's edge over Lebron gets even bigger. 1991-1993 Jordan put up 6.1 ppg more than 2012/2013/2016 Lebron. The efficiency, assists and turnovers are close enough. I just can't overlook the consistent 5-6 ppg in scoring volume when comparing their peaks. I just think that's a huge edge. And then like you said MJ's defense was more consistent as well.

Maybe when I said "never approached" in the OP that was hyperbole but peak Jordan is still clearly the best perimeter player ever in his prime.

[Micku]

Funny enough BPM is the one Advanced Stat where MJ dominates Lebron. 11.4 to 9.1 edge in the regular season, 12.2 to 10.4 edge in the playoffs.

Still a good statistic should be good not just for determining the #1 and #2 player ever but beyond that. When I see Chris Paul is 5th all time in BPM and Stockton is 8th all time, it really destroys its credibility. Note that BPM is a rate stat and doesn't reward longevity so those kind of results are really bad.



Bron rates fairly well but actually his numbers drop off more noticeably on good teams compared to Jordan's. If we use titles in championships runs only, Jordan's edge over Lebron gets even bigger. 1991-1993 Jordan put up 6.1 ppg more than 2012/2013/2016 Lebron. The efficiency, assists and turnovers are close enough. I just can't overlook the consistent 5-6 ppg in scoring volume when comparing their peaks. I just think that's a huge edge. And then like you said MJ's defense was more consistent as well.

Maybe when I said "never approached" in the OP that was hyperbole but peak Jordan is still clearly the best perimeter player ever in his prime.

Yeah bro. I think many ppl would agree that MJ prime/peak is better than LeBron, at their respective era still. But we talking about how close it is. That's when the approach comes into play and possibly where we disagree. But if you were to say MJ is clearly the best, then it's cool. The numbers indicate it, eyes test (but that's more subjective), advance numbers show it. But again, LeBron was never consistent consecutively like MJ was at both ends. MJ played at a higher lvl in the RS and continued or enhance that in the PO. Lebron earlier years he went hard on the RS, but his PO was up and down in Miami, but recent years it's been great offensively at least. His years varied defensively. He was better in 12, 13, 16 than he was 17 and 18. But 14, 17 and 18 he at his peak offensively, but not defensively. Those years, he was definitely in the same tier offensively, but not defensively.

MJ was great at both ends 88-93 consecutively.

Though you can find a person who would argue his defensive impact wasn't as huge as LeBron, tho I'm not too sure if that's true. But MJ offensively was too crazy.

However even if we use raw stats to compare, it's still a bit messy. Like 80s ball is different from late 90s ball. Late 90s ball is different from late 00s ball. Etc, etc. I know what's not what you intent, but it has to be said a bit. What that said, MJ was a monster. The games are available so ppl can just watch'em for the eye test.

But it just depends. You don't consider LeBron to be the same tier, right? Like I don't think he has to be better or even the same necessary to be on the same tier. Like Magic and Bird, are they not on same tier? You could say Bird has the better peak or prime tho. Duncan and KG, right? They might be on the same tier, but Duncan would be consider better. You could argue who had the better peak. You could toss Dirk in there. Barkley and Karl Malone. Dominique Wilkins or Carmelo? But what do you think of it? Or is MJ just on a tier of his own in your eyes?

[dankok8]

Yeah bro. I think many ppl would agree that MJ prime/peak is better than LeBron, at their respective era still. But we talking about how close it is. That's when the approach comes into play and possibly where we disagree. But if you were to say MJ is clearly the best, then it's cool. The numbers indicate it, eyes test (but that's more subjective), advance numbers show it. But again, LeBron was never consistent consecutively like MJ was at both ends. MJ played at a higher lvl in the RS and continued or enhance that in the PO. Lebron earlier years he went hard on the RS, but his PO was up and down in Miami, but recent years it's been great offensively at least. His years varied defensively. He was better in 12, 13, 16 than he was 17 and 18. But 14, 17 and 18 he at his peak offensively, but not defensively. Those years, he was definitely in the same tier offensively, but not defensively.

MJ was great at both ends 88-93 consecutively.

Though you can find a person who would argue his defensive impact wasn't as huge as LeBron, tho I'm not too sure if that's true. But MJ offensively was too crazy.

However even if we use raw stats to compare, it's still a bit messy. Like 80s ball is different from late 90s ball. Late 90s ball is different from late 00s ball. Etc, etc. I know what's not what you intent, but it has to be said a bit. What that said, MJ was a monster. The games are available so ppl can just watch'em for the eye test.

But it just depends. You don't consider LeBron to be the same tier, right? Like I don't think he has to be better or even the same necessary to be on the same tier. Like Magic and Bird, are they not on same tier? You could say Bird has the better peak or prime tho. Duncan and KG, right? They might be on the same tier, but Duncan would be consider better. You could argue who had the better peak. You could toss Dirk in there. Barkley and Karl Malone. Dominique Wilkins or Carmelo? But what do you think of it? Or is MJ just on a tier of his own in your eyes?

Yea... As far as perimeter players only are concerned I consider MJ on his own tier as far as peaks. Lebron may be the closest but he's still a good distance away. For me how do I decide tiers? For me the same tier is if I can see an argument for the other player. And in this comparison I can't see an argument for Lebron over MJ as a peak player. That doesn't mean the gap is huge but it's a clear gap.

You mentioned basic and advances stats and eye test...

Don't forget team impact. The 1991, 1992 Bulls (and also 1996 and 1997 but that wasn't MJ's peak) were much better offensively than any team Lebron ever played on. And it was basically Pippen and some good role players. It wasn't the Showtime Lakers type talent with Magic/Kareem/Worthy/Scott. Or the 80's Celtics with Bird/McHale/Parish/DJ or the 10's Heat with Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Allen or the 10's Warriors with KD/Curry/Klay/Green. Four 90's Bulls teams were top 20 all time in ORtg and that's despite playing in a more defensive era. And mind you MJ wasn't at the head of some gimmicky offense either that was sacrificing defense for offense like the SSOL Suns or Nellie's Mavs or something like that. The Bulls were a really good defensive team and a GOAT-level offensive team at the same time. And their offense completely fell apart without MJ. The Bulls went from one of the greatest offenses ever to below league average during his first retirement.

[Micku]

Yea... As far as perimeter players only are concerned I consider MJ on his own tier as far as peaks. Lebron may be the closest but he's still a good distance away. For me how do I decide tiers? For me the same tier is if I can see an argument for the other player. And in this comparison I can't see an argument for Lebron over MJ as a peak player. That doesn't mean the gap is huge but it's a clear gap.

You mentioned basic and advances stats and eye test...

Don't forget team impact. The 1991, 1992 Bulls (and also 1996 and 1997 but that wasn't MJ's peak) were much better offensively than any team Lebron ever played on. And it was basically Pippen and some good role players. It wasn't the Showtime Lakers type talent with Magic/Kareem/Worthy/Scott. Or the 80's Celtics with Bird/McHale/Parish/DJ or the 10's Heat with Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Allen or the 10's Warriors with KD/Curry/Klay/Green. Four 90's Bulls teams were top 20 all time in ORtg and that's despite playing in a more defensive era. And mind you MJ wasn't at the head of some gimmicky offense either that was sacrificing defense for offense like the SSOL Suns or Nellie's Mavs or something like that. The Bulls were a really good defensive team and a GOAT-level offensive team at the same time. And their offense completely fell apart without MJ. The Bulls went from one of the greatest offenses ever to below league average during his first retirement.


That's fair. But I'm curious what are your takes on similar situations with certain players. Like Barkley vs Malone. Magic vs Bird.

I would toss in Duncan vs KG, but maybe that peak is too close. But each one, there is probably a peak that is better than the other, but I don't really consider them to be outside of each other tiers.

I think most people would say that too tho. MJ as a peak player had an impact on the game and production that Lebron never reached, but close. The closest anyone has gotten for a perimeter player. We might disagree on how close it is tho. I remember in the 00s where ppl were proping Kobe to be that. But he wasn't, but he might've been just as skillful. LeBron isn't as skillful in terms of scoring arsenal but he's so dominant and smart that it makes up for it. Like for me personally, it just depends on the years. As you said, consecutively, MJ is more consistent at his prime. LeBron from 12-18 varies. Like RS he was the best in 12 and 13. But offensively he peaked in 16-18 in the POs. He has numbers that are definitely on the tier of MJ's best. But if you take MJ's best years in the PO...like 88-91, he's still produce better numbers imo. But since your criteria is from 88-93, with both the RS and POs, then LeBron isn't as good imo. But then you'll ultimately go subjective about the era, styles of play, defense, which performance is more impressive, etc and etc. To me it doesn't matter so much as the fact how well they dominated.

And okay look. Hahaha! Those teams with the Heat should've been number 1 offense. They never was. But they closest they came was 13. Where the difference between them and the Thunder was so small. I don't know if if I blame LeBron play style and impact more than the coach and the fit tho. I'm sure ppl thought, including me, they were gonn'a dominate the league like how the GSW did. They never did. MJ was more versatile on the offense than LeBron and with the triangle, they probably got the best of them. LeBron's best versatility was the best in 13, which made them 2nd best. Like you said, MJ was a large part of the Bulls offense. But so was LeBron to his teams obviously.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

The answer is no

88-93 Jordan
Kobe's Post Moves
Kobe's Footwork
Durant's Jumpshot
Wade's Slashing
Rose's Athleticism
Kawhi's Defense
Kawhi's Hands
Kawhi's Strength

[Smoke117]

The answer is no

88-93 Jordan
Kobe's Post Moves
Kobe's Footwork
Durant's Jumpshot
Wade's Slashing
Rose's Athleticism
Kawhi's Defense
Kawhi's Hands
Kawhi's Strength

lmfao I can't stand Kawhi, but that's a complete joke that an 88-93 Jordan has his strength.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

lmfao I can't stand Kawhi, but that's a complete joke that an 88-93 Jordan has his strength.
Robert Horry said he was strong for his size but you got a better comparison?

[TheGoatest]

The answer is no

88-93 Jordan
Kobe's Post Moves
Kobe's Footwork
Durant's Jumpshot
Wade's Slashing
Rose's Athleticism
Kawhi's Defense
Kawhi's Hands
Kawhi's Strength

Ben Simmons' 3 point shooting

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Ben Simmons' 3 point shooting

Trolololololol

[TheGoatest]

Trolololololol

Trurururururue

Then the shortened, pee-wee 3 point line came to Jordan's rescue. The one you could almost make a layup from:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yJWlz5ipTY

[999Guy]

The answer is no

88-93 Jordan
Kobe's Post Moves
Kobe's Footwork
Durant's Jumpshot
Wade's Slashing
Rose's Athleticism
Kawhi's Defense
Kawhi's Hands
Kawhi's Strength

Kawhi’s defense and strength. Lol. Jordan is a Poor mans Kawhi defensively. And about as strong as Kawhi after 4 weeks in a gulag.

[paksat]

why?

go watch his highlights from that year, also take a look at his team in 09 and get a giggle out if it.

that team don't win 18 games without him, they were terrible. Go watch his highlights vs a loaded atlanta hawks in their playoff series.

wade all season long was going through double and triple teams and playing 1st team all nba like defense while dropping 30 points on give or take 50% shooting on any given night.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Ben Simmons' 3 point shooting


Then the shortened, pee-wee 3 point line came to Jordan's rescue. The one you could almost make a layup from:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yJWlz5ipTY
Now tell me your King's % outside of the paint


Kawhi’s defense and strength. Lol. Jordan is a Poor mans Kawhi defensively. And about as strong as Kawhi after 4 weeks in a gulag.

Wizards Jordan shut down Vince Carter

Tim Grover was Jordan's trainer for 15 years

[StrongLurk]

Peak MJ is the highest peak in NBA history, literally an almost perfect player.

[light]

From 1988 to 1992 Michael Jordan shot 30% from three making 0.4 threes per game and 36 threes per year.

That's Giannis level shooting. :lebronamazed:

[light]

Peak MJ is the highest peak in NBA history, literally an almost perfect player.

Wrong. Peak MJ was owned by the Detroit Pistons who beat him so badly that they literally forced him to build a gym in his home so he could toughen up.

The Pistons made peak MJ him cry multiple times.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Wrong. Peak MJ was owned by the Detroit Pistons who beat him so badly that they literally forced him to build a gym in his home so he could toughen up.

The Pistons made peak MJ him cry multiple times.

Tim Grover

https://wgnradio.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2017/12/mjred.jpeg?w=500

[dankok8]

Re: 3pt shooting

From 1988-1993 in the playoffs MJ shot 35.7% from 2.3 attempts per game and in the finals he shot 42.1% from 3.4 attempts per game. And that's all with a normal 3pt line. It's not the kind of % in the playoffs that would make you think of him as a sharpshooter but it's definitely not a weakness. And there is a definite trend that when he took more 3's he also shot them better. At the end of the day we'll never know how good he would be as a 3pt shooter today. And it doesn't really matter either... You can only analyze players within their own eras anyways.

[dankok8]

That's fair. But I'm curious what are your takes on similar situations with certain players. Like Barkley vs Malone. Magic vs Bird.

I would toss in Duncan vs KG, but maybe that peak is too close. But each one, there is probably a peak that is better than the other, but I don't really consider them to be outside of each other tiers.

I think most people would say that too tho. MJ as a peak player had an impact on the game and production that Lebron never reached, but close. The closest anyone has gotten for a perimeter player. We might disagree on how close it is tho. I remember in the 00s where ppl were proping Kobe to be that. But he wasn't, but he might've been just as skillful. LeBron isn't as skillful in terms of scoring arsenal but he's so dominant and smart that it makes up for it. Like for me personally, it just depends on the years. As you said, consecutively, MJ is more consistent at his prime. LeBron from 12-18 varies. Like RS he was the best in 12 and 13. But offensively he peaked in 16-18 in the POs. He has numbers that are definitely on the tier of MJ's best. But if you take MJ's best years in the PO...like 88-91, he's still produce better numbers imo. But since your criteria is from 88-93, with both the RS and POs, then LeBron isn't as good imo. But then you'll ultimately go subjective about the era, styles of play, defense, which performance is more impressive, etc and etc. To me it doesn't matter so much as the fact how well they dominated.

And okay look. Hahaha! Those teams with the Heat should've been number 1 offense. They never was. But they closest they came was 13. Where the difference between them and the Thunder was so small. I don't know if if I blame LeBron play style and impact more than the coach and the fit tho. I'm sure ppl thought, including me, they were gonn'a dominate the league like how the GSW did. They never did. MJ was more versatile on the offense than LeBron and with the triangle, they probably got the best of them. LeBron's best versatility was the best in 13, which made them 2nd best. Like you said, MJ was a large part of the Bulls offense. But so was LeBron to his teams obviously.

Malone-Barkley and Magic-Bird are too close to decide though. Those comparisons are too freaking close. They are definitely the same tier and I see myself flip-flopping between them.

Duncan and KG... I don't see them as the same tier. For me Duncan is better by enough of a margin that I'd definitely choose him over KG. Garnett's inability to carry a team with his scoring was real. His TS% plummeted in the playoffs. They were similar players but I would never hesitate who to choose. And I say that as a massive KG fan. I went for pages arguing for KG over Dirk against DMAVS.

And then I see the gap between MJ and Lebron as bigger than that between Duncan and KG. Basic stats just paint MJ as much better. I can't overlook the 5-6 ppg gap. That overshadows any other argument a person can make. Lebron just didn't shoulder nearly the same scoring load and still didn't have better efficiency, or have more assists, or have fewer turnovers than peak MJ. MJ also led better offensive teams, also has better advanced stats, the defense was at best a wash but probably edge to MJ due to consistency as well... Like really it feels like there is no angle to attack it from.

[Manny98]

2018 Lebron in the playoffs is a good as any player ever

[Stanley Kobrick]

From 1988 to 1992 Michael Jordan shot 30% from three making 0.4 threes per game and 36 threes per year.

That's Giannis level shooting. :lebronamazed:
very interesting

[BRockHN]

17 LeBron = Best perimeter player of all time. 06-11 Wade, 12-19 KD & 16-21 Curry come close as well.

[TheCorporation]

The ball-hog chucker that can't hit 3s and relied on Scottie? Sure...Plenty have

https://i.postimg.cc/0Q5DKdBS/MJ-shooketh.png

[3ball]

LeBron was ridiculously dominant in the 2012 playoffs. On both ends. Lol.


Unfortunately, Lebron needed a lot of help to do the tiniest things - he couldn't make the 2nd Round without a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, a 22/6/5 acquisition and a top rebounding team - that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, young Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win, yet he made the 2nd Round with a simple rebounder (oakley).. Infact, the 90' Bulls nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs on both sides of the ball - the bulls had the #19 defense and got less offense from their sidekick (less scoring, efficiency, PER, and WS/48 from pippen)..

Otoh, prime Lebron needed a much better team than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy... Lebron lost to Dwight's 1-star team despite having the league favorite, which included the #3 defense and a superior sidekick to 90' Pippen across the board (Mo had superior BPM, VORP, PER, WS/48).

Ultimately, Jordan had a title-worthy team with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs, while Lebron needed super-teams to win, or he needed to be the pippen (20')...

[dankok8]

Why did you have to revive a great thread from 2 months ago where people actually discussed basketball and how great Jordan's peak was without resorting to trolling, baiting and spamming the same BS over and over.

Shout out to Micku, Kuniva, kblaze, and bizil who brought some real insights and basketball knowledge to this thread! :cheers:

[HALLandOATES]

Wade 2006,2008,2009
Lebron 2008,2009,2010,2011,2012,2013,2014,2015
Durant 2017
Leonard 2020