What year of Melo supposedly needing to retire are we on? About 4?

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/c0kDRTk6kMg

Melo will be NBA level till hes 40 so long as the triple threat is legal and the league needs open 3s made. Hes not had a poor 3 point shooting season since he was still an all star. One bad fit run and a bunch of advanced stats actually convinced people he couldnt even play NBA level ball. Shit like this:



Carmelo Anthony does not deserve to be in the NBA given his current skill set and abilities. There is no question this will be his last year in the league, if he even makes it to the end of the year, that is.

It's not some conspiracy. It's not some keep the black man down bullshit, lmfao... he sucks. Get him out. Throw him in the dumpster.



There is SUCH a disconnect between internet warriors and actual players on these issues. Players see skill. Fans see numbers. Melo is such a natural. Well no. Thats always a misconception. Melo is the result of 2 million reps at 12-18 feet. But hes so advanced he makes it look natural. Thats why guys like Steph gush over his moves and the internet thinks players like him are nothing to be impressed by. Players know how hard it is to prosper that way. Fans should too....but it is what it is.

Melo is NBA level even when he goes 2-8. Melo is what the streets call a "bucket'. And the problem is kids and people who dont play dont realize a "bucket" doesnt mean he makes all his shots. Some of the greatest "bucket" types in history like Kobe, Rick Barry, Paul Pierce, or Pistol Pete shoot like 44-45% in their primes. And knowing they get some high percentage shots at the rim you know they might shoot 35-40% on shots they actually have to create. Maybe worse at times. And people who dont appreciate how hard it is to make those shots concludes its trash because of the percentages when basketball people are in awe.

The more you need a shot to go in the more valuable a "bucket" type is even as you get to the lower end guys like Crawford, Lou Williams, and Vinny Johnson. Key moments you generally can remove transition points from consideration and you face a set D setup by a coach with assistants who watched every basket your star scored all year and knows what he wants.

Thats when you need the "buckets" to come in and do whats predictable but hard to stop. They can make difficult situation shots at the same rate they make their normal shots.....while a lot of guys who can only compile points in the flow are far below what you would assume they could do based on full game averages.

Melo has polished his "Just get a bucket" game to the point his lost athletic ability doesnt stop him.

Eventually it will and he might be like ISO Joe at the end where for 3 minutes he can get you a "He still got it!" basket or two you need but he seems to be in good shape.

Melos only issue was accepting how the game changed, his age, and what was asked of him as a result. Needing to be in the right situation which is the usual case for non stars. Hes not a good defender and hes old so hes not gonna be on the floor 39 minutes. But he is still a bucket. Hes gonna be vaguely nba level for some time even if he does retire.

The basketball world will respect the reps and skill it takes to be what Melo is even if google wont let some of you. And im sure he gets more out of that than he cares what people who dont understand that making 38% of contested pullup jumpers is both difficult in the NBA and occasionally required.

The league always has room for a bucket till his legs give out. Melo might retire soon....but he has legs enough to be an average or low end player for years. Despite some of you somehow thinking he shouldnt play at all 3-4 years ago.

[TheGoatest]

There were long time veterans who retired with way better numbers than 13.6 points on .402 shooting.

[Kblaze8855]

And guys doing 22 on 55% who were of less use than current Melo in the last 8 seconds of the shot clock. And till you grasp why that is the immense respect melo gets from basketball players infinitely better than any of us will seem a mystery to you.

I wish I could watch some of you watch a full game of Earl Monroe. The google gang would be ready to melt his HOF bust down to make one of Jose Calderon instead even as the people around him try to explain why they called him Jesus.

[TheGoatest]

In half of the games he's played Melo has been terrible whether it was 24, 8 or 1 left on the shot clock. In the other half he's been great. For instance, you posted the highlights of his latest game against the Hornets, where he has been great. But just the game before that, which you didn't post, he scored 4 points on 2-7 shooting.

In the end, it all balances out at 13.6 on .402 shooting for the season, at the age of 36. A 38 year-old Grant Hill and a 39 year-old Reggie Miller have had substantially better seasons.

[iamgine]

Uh no. We saw 3-4 years ago many games where he was not...NBA level. I saw how he forced bad shots, played no defense, and just generally being lost and a huge negative on the court. If he's able to turn it around, that's great. But it was not just numbers that made us think he needed to retire.

[DoctorP]

Melo is overrated. Never did much other than score at an elite clip. A modern day Glen Rice. I know he's adored and loved by many I am just not a fan on that level. Is he a hall of famer? Sure.

[Kblaze8855]

In half of the games he's played Melo has been terrible whether it was 24, 8 or 1 left on the shot clock. In the other half he's been great. For instance, you posted the highlights of his latest game against the Hornets, where he has been great. But just the game before that, which you didn't post, he scored 4 points on 2-7 shooting.

In the end, it all balances out at 13.6 on .402 shooting for the season, at the age of 36. A 38 year-old Grant Hill and a 39 year-old Reggie Miller have had substantially better seasons.


First of all....I said

"Melo is NBA level even when he goes 2-8."


Because I assumed someone would say something along the lines of:



But just the game before that, which you didn't post, he scored 4 points on 2-7 shooting.

Apparently feeling a need to explain the concept of "Averages". And ill go on and respond to this at the same time:



Uh no. We saw 3-4 years ago many games where he was not...NBA level. I saw how he forced bad shots, played no defense, and just generally being lost and a huge negative on the court. If he's able to turn it around, that's great. But it was not just numbers that made us think he needed to retire.


A bad shooting night doesnt mean anyone shouldnt be in the NBA. It means an NBA player had a bad shooting night. You dont go from "Should be playing pickup at the Y" to 30 points in the NBA ability wise in a matter of days.

Its just version 200 of people leaving their common sense at home on the issue of a declined star and judging them by different standards than most. Most of the NBA is the 300 people between the elites and the "Might be in the G league tomorrow" hangers on.

You just look a lot harder at Carmelo than Grant Riller and Issac Bonga. It would never occur to you to say Kyle Guy shouldnt be in the NBA(though he has been for a couple years) because nothing would make you acknowledge him to begin with. But those types and guys a half step up are the majority of the league. Most of the NBA....is the 8 guys on a 15 man roster who barely play....and all of them.....and hundred+ more in europe and the G league...are ALL nba level.

Theres just a math ignoring point of view that NBA level means consistently very effective in the NBA and thats odd considering that math is mostly what the "bucket" haters use to justify it.

Considering injury and 2 way deals 500 people a season are in the NBA.

None of them....precisely zero...are even capable of having a 20 point night....while not being good enough at basketball to justify a spot.

[DoctorP]

First of all....I said

"Melo is NBA level even when he goes 2-8."


Because I assumed someone would say something along the lines of:




Apparently feeling a need to explain the concept of "Averages". And ill go on and respond to this at the same time:




A bad shooting night doesnt mean anyone shouldnt be in the NBA. It means an NBA player had a bad shooting night. You dont go from "Should be playing pickup at the Y" to 30 points in the NBA ability wise in a matter of days.

Its just version 200 of people leaving their common sense at home on the issue of a declined star and judging them by different standards than most. Most of the NBA is the 300 people between the elites and the "Might be in the G league tomorrow" hangers on.

You just look a lot harder at Carmelo than Grant Riller and Issac Bonga. It would never occur to you to say Kyle Guy shouldnt be in the NBA(though he has been for a couple years) because nothing would make you acknowledge him to begin with. But those types and guys a half step up are the majority of the league. Most of the NBA....is the 8 guys on a 15 man roster who barely play....and all of them.....and hundred+ more in europe and the G league...are ALL nba level.

Theres just a math ignoring point of view that NBA level means consistently very effective in the NBA and thats odd considering that math is mostly what the "bucket" haters use to justify it.

Considering injury and 2 way deals 500 people a season are in the NBA.

None of them....precisely zero...are even capable of having a 20 point night....while not being good enough at basketball to justify a spot.

Did you really have to write "precisely zero" after writing "None of them"? You're over-writing. Who are you trying to impress?

:lol

[TheGoatest]

First of all....I said

"Melo is NBA level even when he goes 2-8."


Because I assumed someone would say something along the lines of:


NBA level, as in he is as good or better than the likes of Jared Dudley and Goga Bitadze, who are currently also on an NBA roster and therefore also "NBA level"? Sure.
NBA level as in good? Certainly not in half of his games. No player is good when he goes 2-8 in half of his game unless he's some defensive specialist bound for an all-defensive selection. Which Carmelo is not.


Melo is overrated. Never did much other than score at an elite clip. A modern day Glen Rice. I know he's adored and loved by many I am just not a fan on that level. Is he a hall of famer? Sure.

Glen was a way better shooter than Melo. Melo is a better iso scorer. But they are pretty similar in the sense that they didn't do much else but score.

[Kblaze8855]

Did you really have to write "precisely zero" after writing "None of them"? You're over-writing. Who are you trying to impress?

:lol

After 20 years of this you can be sure I don’t think the way I talk impresses anyone. And it shouldn’t.

[DoctorP]

After 20 years of this you can be sure I don’t think the way I talk impresses anyone. And it shouldn’t.

I'm just poking ya, man. No worries.

[Kblaze8855]

NBA level, as in he is as good or better than the likes of Jared Dudley and Goga Bitadze, who are currently also on an NBA roster and therefore also "NBA level"? Sure.
NBA level as in good?


Those things are so clearly not the same I refuse to explain it because I’m sure you all know. Even though someone using them interchangeably suggests otherwise of course....

[Overdrive]

https://youtu.be/c0kDRTk6kMg

Melo will be NBA level till hes 40 so long as the triple threat is legal and the league needs open 3s made. Hes not had a poor 3 point shooting season since he was still an all star. One bad fit run and a bunch of advanced stats actually convinced people he couldnt even play NBA level ball. Shit like this:






There is SUCH a disconnect between internet warriors and actual players on these issues. Players see skill. Fans see numbers. Melo is such a natural. Well no. Thats always a misconception. Melo is the result of 2 million reps at 12-18 feet. But hes so advanced he makes it look natural. Thats why guys like Steph gush over his moves and the internet thinks players like him are nothing to be impressed by. Players know how hard it is to prosper that way. Fans should too....but it is what it is.

Melo is NBA level even when he goes 2-8. Melo is what the streets call a "bucket'. And the problem is kids and people who dont play dont realize a "bucket" doesnt mean he makes all his shots. Some of the greatest "bucket" types in history like Kobe, Rick Barry, Paul Pierce, or Pistol Pete shoot like 44-45% in their primes. And knowing they get some high percentage shots at the rim you know they might shoot 35-40% on shots they actually have to create. Maybe worse at times. And people who dont appreciate how hard it is to make those shots concludes its trash because of the percentages when basketball people are in awe.

The more you need a shot to go in the more valuable a "bucket" type is even as you get to the lower end guys like Crawford, Lou Williams, and Vinny Johnson. Key moments you generally can remove transition points from consideration and you face a set D setup by a coach with assistants who watched every basket your star scored all year and knows what he wants.

Thats when you need the "buckets" to come in and do whats predictable but hard to stop. They can make difficult situation shots at the same rate they make their normal shots.....while a lot of guys who can only compile points in the flow are far below what you would assume they could do based on full game averages.

Melo has polished his "Just get a bucket" game to the point his lost athletic ability doesnt stop him.

Eventually it will and he might be like ISO Joe at the end where for 3 minutes he can get you a "He still got it!" basket or two you need but he seems to be in good shape.

Melos only issue was accepting how the game changed, his age, and what was asked of him as a result. Needing to be in the right situation which is the usual case for non stars. Hes not a good defender and hes old so hes not gonna be on the floor 39 minutes. But he is still a bucket. Hes gonna be vaguely nba level for some time even if he does retire.

The basketball world will respect the reps and skill it takes to be what Melo is even if google wont let some of you. And im sure he gets more out of that than he cares what people who dont understand that making 38% of contested pullup jumpers is both difficult in the NBA and occasionally required.

The league always has room for a bucket till his legs give out. Melo might retire soon....but he has legs enough to be an average or low end player for years. Despite some of you somehow thinking he shouldnt play at all 3-4 years ago.

I'm Melo's age and probably play as long as him. Not close to professionally, but a have and had my fair share of basketbaöl mileage. The problem I see with people like him is that the often take this shots, which are hard to make and they make at a higher clip than others could without any consideration for anything else. It's good they exist, but they also create alot of issues that teams with a more equal opportunity offense don't have.

8 on the shotclock, dump the ball to Melo and he'll most likely shoot it. That's not good basketball in any way. Especially from your star. The other team knows you'll shoot, your team knows you'll shoot, you basically take away all the options. Some teams don't have other options, but the '21 Blazers? They have.

Ignoring options, because you are the better toughshot maker sours team chemistry down the road. I played with such people and alot of them blame the team the moment their shot won't fall even if they didn't even consider team ball in the first place. Melo's track record of chemistry issues points into that direction. Does this take away his personal ability to hang with NBA players? No, does this help his teams most nights? Not for ten years going. He killed his career with his ego move to disembowel the Knicks to play there 5 Month earlier than he could have as a free agent.

[Kblaze8855]

Ten years going? In the last 10 years Melo is a 7 time all star and won about as much as several hall of famers did in their entire careers. Once again....it’s nothing but evolving standards to find justification to talk shit.

Melo would be a long shot hall of famer off the last 10-11 years alone. Melo the last ten years is like Antawn Jamison or Glen Robinsons whole prime. Probably better. But people go with “But he’s supposed to be...” or “But people say...” to justify not judging people off bottom line basketball ability.

Dudes were in the nba a decade having peaked as what Melo is now.

[Overdrive]

Ten years going? In the last 10 years Melo is a 7 time all star and won about as much as several hall of famers did in their entire careers. Once again....it’s nothing but evolving standards to find justification to talk shit.

Melo would be a long shot hall of famer off the last 10-11 years alone. Melo the last ten years is like Antawn Jamison or Glen Robinsons whole prime. Probably better. But people go with “But he’s supposed to be...” or “But people say...” to justify not judging people off bottom line basketball ability.

Dudes were in the nba a decade having peaked as what Melo is now.

You didn't touch the core of my post. I know who and what Melo is. I know he is (still) an extremly skilled basketball player. I stated as an individual he is NBA talent and he was an all/super star level talent for most his career, but he is not a great team player, his ego and mentality burdened him for some years. You don't believe if he didn't hold two teams hostage to force a trade that gutted one of them he wouldn't have had more success?

[Kblaze8855]

I’d say the greater issue is people thinking he hasn’t had success already. I want to know what league his detractors are fans of where he has not had a perfectly normal amount of success for a legend. Do people think careers like Jordan, Kareem, or Duncan are normal?

Melo is right in the middle of usual legend success. Most of the hall of fame is and always will be guys like Gervin, Zo, Mullin, Mutombo, Lanier, Vince Carter and Melo who yes....fall short of all time elites success wise....but only lack it on comparison to such people. Playing 18 years, being a top 10 ish all time scorer, a 10 or whatever time all star, and having your two deepest runs end at the hands of nba championship squads that absolutely should have beat yours?

Yea....that’s normal hall of famer/legendary success. John Havlicek types are outliers. Legends are mostly Pistol Pete, Melo, Webber, and Alex English.

And he’s had what always been considered plenty of success. Great career middle of the road winning. Nothing to really complain about.

[tontoz]

I am pretty indifferent to Melo but something is going on with him this year. Even though he is making 3s at a good rate most of his shots are 2s and he is shooting a dismal 40.8% on 2s. That is epically bad. I would say it would be hard to find any rotation player that is taking 7 2s a game shooting that bad. He shot 49% on 2s just two years ago.

[Kblaze8855]

Old Kobe situation. Guy who specialized in tough shots losing the explosion to get the extra easy one a night to make the numbers look better to people who care about such things. At least in the last few games of his I paid attention to. One layup a game or so doesn’t do much in the big picture winning of a game with 240 points scored but it does a lot for your percentages. One flat jumper a night does the same. No great change to the outcome of a 138-122 game like we often have now....but it makes your numbers look worse no matter how little it actually matters.

[tontoz]

He should take a page from Vince Carter. As he got older Vince took fewer 2s relative to 3s. Let the young guys take the tough shots. It's ok to pass the ball.

His 3 pt shooting could keep him in the league awhile if he improves his shot selection.

[999Guy]

He should take a page from Vince Carter. As he got older Vince took fewer 2s relative to 3s. Let the young guys take the tough shots. It's ok to pass the ball.

His 3 pt shooting could keep him in the league awhile if he improves his shot selection.
VC could still play defense though. Like notable defense.

He had the honor of getting crucified by Kawhi in the 17 playoffs for a reason.

Melo is not bad for being a bad scrub. Because that is what he absolutely is right now. He’s a bad, lineup hurting player. But there have been worse. God almighty worse.

Jamal Crawford was...unthinkably terrible defensively. Melo busts his ass and doesn’t get raped on that end, has good hands.


Really what Carmelo Anthony is, is a living stress relief scrub for coaches, players, and GM’s on teams who can’t afford to get, or are not skilled enough to scout Jalen Brunson’s and David Nwaba’s, guys who are actual good quality role players.

Who would you rather see miss a lot of shots but get hot enough to round out his averages weekly? James Ennius or a humble ghost of Carmelo Anthony?

Melo is just gonna make guys more comfortable. But he sucks. No question. And no grading on a curve or rationalizing. He stinks.

[tontoz]

I was never a Melo fan. Even in his prime i didn't care for his ball stopping game but teams will find a spot for guys who can make 3s, especially guys with some size.

The shot selection needs to change if he wants to extend his career.

It is odd how badly his rebounding has fallen off, only 4.8 per 36 compared to 7 last year.

[FultzNationRISE]

Sorry OP but everything the haters have said about Melo has been true for the VAST MAJORITY of his career.

I'm honestly happy for him and happy for the Blazers that he finally managed to humble himself at the last possible moment before having to resort to a stint with the Beijing Ducks. He's been a useful player the last couple of years. That's... nice.

But prior to that, he was never worth anywhere near the amount of salary he received, nor as valuable as the touches/shots he monopolized. He was not a USEFUL player. I'll much sooner take a good role player over a bad "first option" to start a team.

Being capable of creating impressive shot-making highlights is a wildly overrated skill in competitive ball. That doesn't stop a lot of NBA players from admiring it and aspiring to it, and Melo is probably a well liked guy in the league. Of course his peers will talk him up. But unbias observers shouldn't have much difficulty in seeing the low impact, even counter productive impact that was a hallmark of his play for many years.

He was never a difference maker. Given his salary and usage, he was actually a net negative most years. That's just the reality.

Took him a long time to mature. Better late than never though. Give him credit for getting there eventually.

[ralph_i_el]

:applause: More people need to see this. This is the type of education the reddit nephews need.

[ralph_i_el]

Being capable of creating impressive shot-making highlights is a wildly overrated skill in competitive ball. That doesn't stop a lot of NBA players from admiring it and aspiring to it, and Melo is probably a well liked guy in the league. Of course his peers will talk him up. But unbias observers shouldn't have much difficulty in seeing the low impact, even counter productive impact that was a hallmark of his play for many years.

He was never a difference maker.

Hard disagree. I kind of used to think like this until I watch his 09 series with the Lakers, and the 2014(?) run to the ECF while I was quarantined.

Here's game 1 of lakers-nuggets in 09. I'm pretty sure the whole series is all still on youtube.
https://youtu.be/d2D3krXZ3Dk

You need a guy who can manufacture points out of nothing. Every team needs that person.

[FultzNationRISE]

Hard disagree. I kind of used to think like this until I watch his 09 series with the Lakers, and the 2014(?) run to the ECF while I was quarantined.

Here's game 1 of lakers-nuggets in 09. I'm pretty sure the whole series is all still on youtube.
https://youtu.be/d2D3krXZ3Dk

You need a guy who can manufacture points out of nothing. Every team needs that person.[/B]


Cherrypicking his only two good playoff runs in 15 years kinda proves my whole point. A guy with his ability gets hot from time to time and has success playing the wrong way. Just as you can make terrible decisions in poker and still catch breaks from time to time. And with Melo you can't say he was always killing it in the playoffs and his teammates never showed. He was frequently garbage. Getting lost in the nostalgia and amazement from the times it did work isn't a critical way of assessing effectiveness.

I could point to numerous times a team without a superstar made the conference finals and lost over the last two decades. You can't say Melo making a conference finals and losing validates the me-first solo approach, but another team making the conference finals and losing proves they need a superstar to get them over the hump. That's paradoxical.

Running a team through Melo is basically a crap shoot because of the way he plays. Yeah you can hope to get lucky, and occasionally you will... but it's a low probability play that requires more luck than you can consistently expect to get. I would rather start with a strong foundation and seek to improve consistently. At the end of the day I guess it's subjective. But to me the more sensible path seems obvious.

[Kblaze8855]

. Being capable of creating impressive shot-making highlights is a wildly overrated skill in competitive ball. That doesn't stop a lot of NBA players from admiring it and aspiring to it, and Melo is probably a well liked guy in the league. Of course his peers will talk him up. But unbias observers shouldn't have much difficulty in seeing the low impact, even counter productive impact that was a hallmark of his play for many years.


Unbiased observers like who? The guy spooning the sauce over the meatloaf in Golden Corral? Generally speaking I don’t ask that guy to break down basketball skills for me. I ask people who know basketball.

I know basketball more than almost everyone I encounter day to day and compared to say....the people making and executing game plans I’m barely literate. Too many people complain about a guy being selfish for taking a shot in an isolation a play was run to create for me to care what most fans think.

Most fans barely even know what they’re seeing. I only halfway know. I’d absolutely tell you to listen to Tony Allen explain why someone is great before you listen to me.

Doesnt make them right or wrong...obviously they will disagree with each other....but I’m just not going to a forklift driver for my triple threat scoring breakdowns when I have other options.

Give me an informed opinion I disagree with over someone who knows half what I know telling me I’m right with idiotic reasons.

[Kblaze8855]

You can't say Melo making a conference finals and losing validates the me-first solo approach, but another team making the conference finals and losing proves they need a superstar to get them over the hump. That's paradoxical.


As is always ignored....

Most players “me first” or not also didn’t accomplish much.

Did I miss Steve Nash’s finals run? Chris Paul? Chris Mullin?

Melo gets hated for not winning with his style when he won at a straight middle of the road level for a mid to low end hall of famer.

[Smoke117]

Carmelo is garbage.

/thread

[Kblaze8855]

An unusual number of your all garbage squad is going to the hall of fame.

[FultzNationRISE]

Unbiased observers like who? The guy spooning the sauce over the meatloaf in Golden Corral? Generally speaking I don’t ask that guy to break down basketball skills for me. I ask people who know basketball.

I know basketball more than almost everyone I encounter day to day and compared to say....the people making and executing game plans I’m barely literate. Too many people complain about a guy being selfish for taking a shot in an isolation a play was run to create for me to care what most fans think.

Most fans barely even know what they’re seeing. I only halfway know. I’d absolutely tell you to listen to Tony Allen explain why someone is great before you listen to me.

Doesnt make them right or wrong...obviously they will disagree with each other....but I’m just not going to a forklift driver for my triple threat scoring breakdowns when I have other options.

Give me an informed opinion I disagree with over someone who knows half what I know telling me I’m right with idiotic reasons.


What good are someone's qualifications if they have a dishonest agenda?

Same in politics tbh. I'd rather have a guy with compromised competence trying to do the right thing, than a candidate with impeccable qualifications who is unequivocally working against my interests. But as we've seen in contemporary times, much of the clamors and yelps for "the appearance of presidential" etc.

You can give me the most qualified talent scout on the planet, but if I know he's going to base his evaluations on personal affinities, what good is his opinion?

[FultzNationRISE]

As is always ignored....

Most players “me first” or not also didn’t accomplish much.

Did I miss Steve Nash’s finals run? Chris Paul? Chris Mullin?

Melo gets hated for not winning with his style when he won at a straight middle of the road level for a mid to low end hall of famer.

I'm not saying pass first players are invariably successful either. My point is the idea you must have a "go-to guy" simply isnt supported by evidence, unless you limit that distinction to the Shaqs, Lebrons, Duncans (which I personally do, but most do not).

Melo is not a real go-to guy, nor is Love, Pierce, Bosh, Westbrook, Joe Johnson, Tmac, or other "stars" of that caliber, whom people usually build up in the first place BECAUSE they've put up big numbers on bad teams. And then people claim you need a guy like that to have a chance? Doesn't even make sense. If they were on a good team from the start they likely wouldn't have those numbers and people wouldn't have the same impression. But when there are two dozen players like that in the league and they all play 15+ years, the odds are one of them is gonna be playing a finals in a given year just by pure mathematical chance. People then use that to validate the claim "you gotta have a go-to guy." But it's a false perception, not some fundamental law of competitive basketball.

[Kblaze8855]

What good are someone's qualifications if they have a dishonest agenda?

Same in politics tbh. I'd rather have a guy with compromised competence trying to do the right thing, than a candidate with impeccable qualifications who is unequivocally working against my interests. But as we've seen in contemporary times, much of the clamors and yelps for "the appearance of presidential" etc.

You can give me the most qualified talent scout on the planet, but if I know he's going to base his evaluations on personal affinities, what good is his opinion?


The guy mixing the secret meatloaf recipe has an agenda. He just doesn’t have an agenda plus experience.

[GOBB]

For me the fact he finally embraced a backup role/role player role is good with me. Didn’t think he would. And honestly he was stuck on being a starter much like Iverson was. Figured he just fade from the game like he did. He’s a quality bench vet that can provide instant buckets. Would like him on Sixers in the at role. But 2 years ago? Nah. Just based on his words.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not saying pass first players are invariably successful either. My point is the idea you must have a "go-to guy" simply isnt supported by evidence, unless you limit that distinction to the Shaqs, Lebrons, Duncans (which I personally do, but most do not).

Melo is not a real go-to guy, nor is Love, Pierce, Bosh, Westbrook, Joe Johnson, Tmac, or other "stars" of that caliber, whom people usually build up in the first place BECAUSE they've put up big numbers on bad teams. And then people claim you need a guy like that to have a chance? Doesn't even make sense. If they were on a good team from the start they likely wouldn't have those numbers and people wouldn't have the same impression. But when there are two dozen players like that in the league and they all play 15+ years, the odds are one of them is gonna be playing a finals in a given year just by pure mathematical chance. People then use that to validate the claim "you gotta have a go-to guy." But it's a false perception, not some fundamental law of competitive basketball.



Let me get something clear before I respond too harshly.....


Tracy Mcgrady and Pierce types aren’t go to guys....so how many people are?

It can’t be many.

The idea that you don’t need a great scorer has little to do with go to guys as a concept. Required or not it seems fairly clear they exist and in numbers well beyond the few who do it at a level beyond a guy like prime Mcgrady.

[FultzNationRISE]

I always think of Shawn Marion as the prime example of this. I would take a prime Marion over a guy like Melo without a moment's hesitation. With identical salaries. Wouldn't even have to think about. Because Marion can fit a team, and doesn't need a team to fit him.

If you think about someone like Iverson... he made a finals with one unique, specific fit of teammates around him, but then a whole bunch of other years his teams sucked. There are too many players you CANT play a guy like Iverson, Melo, Westbrook etc with and be successful, whereas you can play Marion with ANYONE. It's much easier to build a team for success that way IMO. That's the kind of player I prefer to start with. Even if I have no guarantee of getting a volume guy like Anthony later, I'll still take my chances with Marion, or an Andre Iguodala type.

You can have a prime Melo and pair him with a prime Westbrook and prime Cousins and bring in prime Gilbert Arenas off the bench all you want. But there's a reason the Spurs dont go for players like that. They don't play smart basketball. I simply don't see the point of putting low IQ guys on a team if you're trying to win. I wouldn't take those players for the salary minimum. Just dont see that point. But that's just me.

[FultzNationRISE]

Let me get something clear before I respond too harshly.....


Tracy Mcgrady and Pierce types aren’t go to guys....so how many people are?

It can’t be many.

The idea that you don’t need a great scorer has little to do with go to guys as a concept. Required or not it seems fairly clear they exist and in numbers well beyond the few who do it at a level beyond a guy like prime Mcgrady.

Perhaps I should rephrase. I mean a "max player" based on a ROI curve. If you pay Lebron and Jimmy Butler the same money, Lebron gives you a much better ROI. So to me it's foolish to pay Butler the max. And I'd rather pay Butler a near-max than, say, John Wall, because Butler will give a better return on a near-max.

True max players, in my book, are Lebron, Shaq, Duncan level guys. If I was an owner I would of course concede for practical purposes to paying KG and Dirk etc. the max too.

I'm never, ever paying Rudy Gay a max contract. Remember when he was making that money??? :lol
Remember how MANY guys like that were getting max contracts, and still do?? And then people wonder why those franchises never amount to shit?? (*cough andrew wiggins cough*)

There's tons of people who looked at Rudy Gay's point totals on the irrelevant Memphis Grizzles and said "Well, he's a star, look at his scoring, gotta give him the max."

I mean... I guess I don't see these things as "simplistically" as a lot of casuals (not referring to you). People just think 20 points per game means impact guy and that's it. Sure you can call McGrady a "go to guy" in terms of being a better one-on-one scorer than most of the league. But I wouldn't be interested in building a team that depends on that, so he wouldn't be a high priority guy for me to run out and pay a bunch of money to. I just wouldn't see the point.

[Kblaze8855]

And yet Marion combined with the back to back mvp and Amare and solid role players everywhere made it exactly as far as Melo before he became a role player. You’re free to want whoever.....fact is most of the people praised for their perfect styles don’t win either. What wins and loses is a lot clearer in the minds of the people downplaying who they see as losers than it is in real life.

One would assume John Stockton would win with all his incredible winning traits(efficient, ultimate playmaker, clutch, tough, great defender). Still lost in the first round with multiple great teams(a 55 and 61 win team I believe) and made it exactly as far as loser Westbrook despite having an mvp level teammate for like 12 years in a row and often an additional star or DPOY.


It feeeeeeeeels like guys like that are winners.

Often isn’t the case. Sure in theory they are more flexible and could easily win with more people....outside theory?


Most legends of any play type are between Melos success and Iversons.

[FultzNationRISE]

And yet Marion combined with the back to back mvp and Amare and solid role players everywhere made it exactly as far as Melo before he became a role player. You’re free to want whoever.....fact is most of the people praised for their perfect styles don’t win either. What wins and loses is a lot clearer in the minds of the people downplaying who they see as losers than it is in real life.

One would assume John Stockton would win with all his incredible winning traits(efficient, ultimate playmaker, clutch, tough, great defender). Still lost in the first round with multiple great teams(a 55 and 61 win team I believe) and made it exactly as far as loser Westbrook despite having an mvp level teammate for like 12 years in a row and often an additional star or DPOY.


It feeeeeeeeels like guys like that are winners.

Often isn’t the case. Sure in theory they are more flexible and could easily win with more people....outside theory?


Most legends of any play type are between Melos success and Iversons.


Yeah but two guys could have equal success with varying degrees of contributions. Just like MJ and Horry having a near identical ring count.

It's possible the Jazz would have been much worse without Stockton, which obviously cant be proven without an alternate universe. It's possible the Nuggets with Billups, Nene, Martin, JR, Kleiza, Birdman, and Camby are able to pick up Melo's scoring slack and still make a WCF run one year if things go right. Technically you could argue the Jazz would have been the same without Stockton and the Nuggets would have been much worse without Melo, but which would you honestly think is more likely?

It is subjective. But to me, based on the style of basketball I value... the eye test has never told me I should hold Melo's IMPACT in very high esteem. His individual skill set is nice, and I give him props for the talent he has. But... he was never a guy I'd have been interested in seeing my team add, at any salary. That's just me personally.

[tontoz]

I agree that guys that can be effective without dominating the ball are undervalued by most fans. The ball moves a lot faster when it is being passed as opposed to dribbled.

[Kblaze8855]

That’s fine. You can take Melo. You can take Mark Price. In all likelihood....you win like 4 playoff series in 12 years. Only with one of them people would act like he’s the reason for it.

You would get a laugh reading the nba at 50 book. Full of praise like “Always a winner. Made the playoffs in 9 of his 13 seasons including 3 division titles” for guys who never won anything modern fans would care about.

Somewhere along the line we got the idea that greatness....even goodness...means titles.

More often it means 47 wins a couple times....one 54 win year with another star....and being on the losing end of someone’s championship vhs/dvd. And not even the good dramatic finals loser. The one 18 minutes in set to no dramatic music.

“Legendary” means losing in the first 20 minutes of “A season for the ages. Story of the 2014 Spurs” in real life.

[ZionDunks]

First good game in a calendar year. He’s back!

[Kblaze8855]

18ppg on 64% true shooting. Something like 50/50/85. I’m sure once he comes back to earth and is merely around 13-15 the “not an nba player” talks return even though like 85% of the thousands of players in history couldnt do 15 a game in their primes.

[ImKobe]

18ppg on 64% true shooting. Something like 50/50/85. I’m sure once he comes back to earth and is merely around 13-15 the “not an nba player” talks return even though like 85% of the thousands of players in history couldnt do 15 a game in their primes.

He's below-average on defense but at least he worked on catch & shoot 3s and is a great role player who can fit on any team now. Not many NBA legends would accept the role he did and I'm happy it worked out, should have been a Laker years ago tbh. Could have really used his shooting last season.

[tontoz]

Props to him for changing his game. Haven't watched the Lakers but i would guess he is doing less of the hold the ball iso which he used to love and coaches can't stand.

Most of his shots are 3s and he is shooting them them well. In his first season in Portland he was taking 4 3s and 10 2s which led to weak efficiency even though he shot 3s well.

Still a small sample size though.

[Kblaze8855]

Mix of new Melo and Melo classic




https://youtu.be/N-GQml9aL0Q

[Shogon]

He's actually scorching it from three. He's actually scoring enough from three now that it offsets his terrible defense and terrible ball movement.

Will that hold up? I will be shocked if his 3 point percentage is above 50% like it is now at the end of the season. He's been on a tear.

He's finally not a net negative in these twilight years.

I maintain that in the past few years he largely has not been an NBA level player in a 5 v 5 setting. He's proving me wrong for now. Good for him.

[Shogon]

And indeed, just off of the eye test alone, he has not been a genuine contributor season in and season out since he left New York. Here are the stats that support said eye test.

https://i.postimg.cc/sx3mGpLS/stats.png

Note VORP, BPM, OPBM, DPBM.

[Kblaze8855]

Of course it won’t be 50% at the end of the year. Has anyone other than Kerr, Kapono(who had to stop shooting to do it), and Korver?

And you told me I believe 4 years ago he was playing his final season no matter if he or I knew it or not so I’m not gonna lean too heavily on your eye test.

Melo will be an nba level basketball player when he’s 40. Literally 40. He will just slide deep into the murky waters of guys you never heard of who still manage to hold jobs while getting no claims they shouldn’t be in the league because their names don’t get eyeballs on them.

Not saying he will play till 40….but at 40 he’d just be one of the 50-100 hanger ons not playing defense but still able to score a bucket or two.

Right now he’s a solid rotation player. Normal middle of the road nba forward at worst. He’s obviously playing better than that at the moment.

[RRR3]

Of course it won’t be 50% at the end of the year. Has anyone other than Kerr, Kapono(who had to stop shooting to do it), and Korver?

And you told me I believe 4 years ago he was playing his final season no matter if he or I knew it or not so I’m not gonna lean too heavily on your eye test.

Melo will be an nba level basketball player when he’s 40. Literally 40. He will just slide deep into the murky waters of guys you never heard of who still manage to hold jobs while getting no claims they shouldn’t be in the league because their names don’t get eyeballs on them.

Not saying he will play till 40….but at 40 he’d just be one of the 50-100 hanger ons not playing defense but still able to score a bucket or two.

Right now he’s a solid rotation player. Normal middle of the road nba forward at worst. He’s obviously playing better than that at the moment.
He’s a solid rotation player at the moment but he hasn’t been a solid rotation player in years. We’ll see if he keeps it up.

[Shogon]

Of course it won’t be 50% at the end of the year. Has anyone other than Kerr, Kapono(who had to stop shooting to do it), and Korver?

And you told me I believe 4 years ago he was playing his final season no matter if he or I knew it or not so I’m not gonna lean too heavily on your eye test.

Melo will be an nba level basketball player when he’s 40. Literally 40. He will just slide deep into the murky waters of guys you never heard of who still manage to hold jobs while getting no claims they shouldn’t be in the league because their names don’t get eyeballs on them.

Not saying he will play till 40….but at 40 he’d just be one of the 50-100 hanger ons not playing defense but still able to score a bucket or two.

Right now he’s a solid rotation player. Normal middle of the road nba forward at worst. He’s obviously playing better than that at the moment.

You and I just straight up disagree about what a solid rotation player is. This season aside, he has most definitely not been a solid rotation player. He's been a negative on the court most of the time and was putting up a game or two out of every 4 or 5 games that made you think he was better than he is. People just ignore the bad games because... people gonna people. Just how it is. Sort of how like I tend to focus on the negative. Most people are wired to only remember the good times. It's part of life. It's the reason that there are false perceptions all over sports.

It's why Kobe is labeled as a clutch god despite objective reality saying otherwise. Outbursts and highs tend to be far more memorable than the lows.

He's playing well this season. Other than that he has been garbage. He has not been an NBA level player for years.

He also adjusted his ego since we had a long back and forth about him. That I didn't expect. So good for him, as that was part of it.

[bison]

I thought he would be at the deep end of the rotation when we signed him this summer. Thought he was washed up. But has proven me absolutely wrong so far. He's a wonderful fit because he no longer has to do anything beside catch and shoot, and he has one of the purest jump shots in the game. Now if only he could put up similar numbers during road games....

[Kblaze8855]

You and I just straight up disagree about what a solid rotation player is. This season aside, he has most definitely not been a solid rotation player. He's been a negative on the court most of the time and was putting up a game or two out of every 4 or 5 games that made you think he was better than he is. People just ignore the bad games because... people gonna people. Just how it is. Sort of how like I tend to focus on the negative. Most people are wired to only remember the good times. It's part of life. It's the reason that there are false perceptions all over sports.

It's why Kobe is labeled as a clutch god despite objective reality saying otherwise. Outbursts and highs tend to be far more memorable than the lows.

He's playing well this season. Other than that he has been garbage. He has not been an NBA level player for years.

He also adjusted his ego since we had a long back and forth about him. That I didn't expect. So good for him, as that was part of it.


Allow me to Play your usual game of “This is true even if you don’t like it” and point out some facts….

Due to roster rules there would be 450 players in the nba each year without injury. Accounting for injury, 2 way G league players, the many nba vets in Europe and China making more money than they could as a 9th man here, and the several players always in college or recently retired?


There are well over 500 nba level players at a time. Probably 350 of them will never in their careers play a 10 game stretch like Melo is on right now 8 years into decline. That is why he is a first ballot Hall of Famer. His floor is where 200 nba players have lived their entire life and above where many peaked.

The emotional reality ignoring side of this conversation is you. You’re denying math, common sense, and the impact your emotional tie to your stance has had on you.


Melo and 300 people you wouldn’t know by a headshot are all nba level and the only thing keeping you from seeing it is your emotions.

[RRR3]

Allow me to Play your usual game of “This is true even if you don’t like it” and point out some facts….

Due to roster rules there would be 450 players in the nba each year without injury. Accounting for injury, 2 way G league players, the many nba vets in Europe and China making more money than they could as a 9th man here, and the several players always in college or recently retired?


There are well over 500 nba level players at a time. Probably 350 of them will never in their careers play a 10 game stretch like Melo is on right now 8 years into decline. That is why he is a first ballot Hall of Famer. His floor is where 200 nba players have lived their entire life and above where many peaked.

The emotional reality ignoring side of this conversation is you. You’re denying math, common sense, and the impact your emotional tie to your stance has had on you.


Melo and 300 people you wouldn’t know by a headshot are all nba level and the only thing keeping you from seeing it is your emotions.
Difference between being NBA level and being solid rotation player level.

[Kblaze8855]

That’s an issue of the coach in question and his system. What you think a rotation should be isn’t really important is it? Appears he’s giving them what they want in the good minutes he plays after every second he plays is evaluated by a video coordinator, assistant coaches, and statisticians on every team who combine with the coach to decide to keep playing him despite the protests of the dudes working at the fleshlight factory who become experts when they read basketball reference.