If you could give everyone in history that Jordan/Kobe/Bird drive who is the GOAT?

[Kblaze8855]

And why wouldn’t it be David Robinson?



https://youtu.be/r86mqRPqIiE

Zo getting his shit pushed in. Threes, catching blocks in mid air, all the midrange you could want, outrunning people, finding the shooters....


If you could make that guy play with a little arrogant point to prove hatred I’m not sure there would be a bigger difference maker in history.

Too mobile and athletic....defensive instincts too great....jumper too soft....too powerful for smaller forwards but too quick for big centers....too good handling the double once he had the experience...

If only he didn’t love Jesus more than winning....

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq or Wilt with that mentality/work ethic legitimately could've been the GOAT. Of the top 25 players, Robinson, Barkley & Durant would've been the best served

[Gudo]

Shaq or Wilt with that mentality/work ethic legitimately could've been the GOAT. Of the top 25 candidates, Robinson, Barkley & Durant would be my choices

I agree with Shaq or Wilt. Give over the edge drive and mentality to physically dominant and athletic players and it's game over.

[TheMan]

Shaq

/thread

[tontoz]

Yeah shaq is a good call. Vince Carter was a great player but I never got the impression he had that MJ drive.

Derrick Coleman would have been a beast.

DRob worked hard, hence the physique, but I wasn't wowed by his offensive skill.

Barkley had great skill and would have benefited a lot by a stronger work ethic. I remember seeing a video of him rehabbing by running in a pool. He looks at the camera and says" I don't know if I want to win this bad.":lol

[2much_knowledge]

D rob is a good choice. Shaq is the obvious choice

I would give it too Vince, Vince with killer instinct and insane work ethic would have been awesome to see

[Kblaze8855]

I’m not sure what Shaq does better with a stronger will to win other than maintain his body. He’s not winning much more before 2000. I’d say he and Kobe extend their streak to 4 in 03 but I’d imagine ego still messes it up.

Shaq was never gonna be a big time shooter. He could have played more active defense at times and kept slimmer but he got hurt before he got fat.

Shaq when the game started had a lot of will to win. It was his preparation that suffered.

David wanting to prove he was the baddest man alive I’d say is better than Shaq just being in shape. We saw Shaq in shape and he always had a killer instinct.

Shaq wanting it more I’d say has less to improve on what we saw at his peak.

David was half assing it a lot more from a “Dude...they can’t guard you...” point of view. He let some people live he should have had in the ground.

[Micku]

It's Shaq for me too.

David Robinson is great, don't get me wrong. But Shaq already had the body. He changed the league without having that MJ/Kobe/Bird drive. He's the reason there's zone and 3 defensive second because they wanted slow him down. Not say he wasn't competitive already, but even his trainer said he didn't have the drive to be GOAT. He came into camp out of shape and etc. Imagine him taking care of his body, working on more moves, and still having that drive to motivate him.

[tontoz]

DRob was always in top shape and was a great defender, but he didn't have the offensive skill a lot of other greats had.

His jumper was ok. He didn't seem comfortable playing with his back to the basket. He was decent off the dribble. He scored a lot thanks to his size and speed, not necessarily his skill.

He didn't have those impressive moves you would see from guys like Dream,Mchale or Duncan. Even Shaq had good footwork and a nice jump hook inside. DRob seemed like a guard in a bigs body but without guard skills.

[Kblaze8855]

He was something like Giannis with a soft midrange shot and experience playing D as a traditional big. But he was more skilled than you give him credit for. That said...a Kobe/Bird like desire to improve is exactly what I’m talking about adding. He may have been the best base package to build off in basketball history.

[tontoz]

He was something like Giannis with a soft midrange shot and experience playing D as a traditional big. But he was more skilled than you give him credit for. That said...a Kobe/Bird like desire to improve is exactly what I’m talking about adding. He may have been the best base package to build off in basketball history.

By nba standards, what offensive skills did he have that were above average? His skills weren't bad but they weren't on the same level as a guy like Dream and I don't know if more drive would remedy that.

He clearly worked hard on his conditioning. I would think he was also working hard on his game.

[Micku]

I’m not sure what Shaq does better with a stronger will to win other than maintain his body. He’s not winning much more before 2000. I’d say he and Kobe extend their streak to 4 in 03 but I’d imagine ego still messes it up.

Shaq was never gonna be a big time shooter. He could have played more active defense at times and kept slimmer but he got hurt before he got fat.

Shaq when the game started had a lot of will to win. It was his preparation that suffered.

David wanting to prove he was the baddest man alive I’d say is better than Shaq just being in shape. We saw Shaq in shape and he always had a killer instinct.

Shaq wanting it more I’d say has less to improve on what we saw at his peak.

David was half assing it a lot more from a “Dude...they can’t guard you...” point of view. He let some people live he should have had in the ground.

More playoff Shaq at his peak I'm guessing. More effort on defense. More rebounding. He would sprint instead of slowly jog back on defense. He would work on being more mobile at the best he could. And work harder on the FTs. Like he could've been the best rebounder in the league nearly every year in his prime. He could've lead the league in blocks. He could average more pts. Improve on his longevity.

I think on Bill Simmons podcast a while back, he said something like, "Shaq's a genius who could've been A+ student in college. But wanted to party and settle for being B+."

And everyone comments on his effort sometimes. In the playoffs, ppl are wondering how come we can't see that all the time? That burst of energy he has.

D.Rob was always in shape. He probably gave more effort to enhance his game and stay in shape than Shaq did. But he probably needed more of a star wing than a MJ/Kobe/Bird mentality given his play style. Perhaps if he trained enough to improve on his moveset within the post and better within the half court. He had the quickness advantage over many centers. With more moves at his arsenal. Like do you want him to have the moves of Mchale, Kareem and Hakeem? Or just eat guys alive?

[baudkarma]

I can't really argue with DRob as the top choice. Of course I'm a Spurs fan so there's an admitted bias there. On the other hand, the list of players who won both a scoring title and DPOY during their career is pretty damn short.

[tontoz]

One thing I will say for DRob, he was easily the fastest 7 footer I have ever seen end to end. When he turned.on the jets it was no joke.

[Kblaze8855]

Being less skilled than Hakeem isn’t saying much. He was a better shooter, ball handler, and passer than most bigs that’s for sure. Better finisher too. Great shot blocker which isn’t just athletic ability. Who is average anyway?

You’re talking about Hakeem and Mchale like that’s a fair starting point.

[Micku]

But this is pretty much with Kobe says about it too. Like he said, when Kobe run back on defense, then go back on offense, then go back on defense, Shaq is still jogging go back on defense on the first play. Haha! It's an exaggeration, but it's legit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUVnObpACCI

[tontoz]

Being less skilled than Hakeem isn’t saying much. He was a better shooter, ball handler, and passer than most bigs that’s for sure. Better finisher too. Great shot blocker which isn’t just athletic ability. Who is average anyway?

You’re talking about Hakeem and Mchale like that’s a fair starting point.


True but I just don't remember any of his offensive moves that stood out. And when you are talking about him becoming the GOAT, he needs to have some standout offensive skill.

His jumper was ok but let's be real he was shooting stand still jumpers. He wasn't creating space and shooting off the dribble. Guys played off him because there were rightly afraid of him blowing past them.He could finish well inside because he was a 7+ foot athletic freak, but his drives to the rim were pretty basic.

I like to give embiid crap but his offensive arsenal is easily 2x that of DRob, he is just a lot slower.

I liked DRob don't get me wrong. I think he worked his ass off but I just don't think he could effectively make some of the moves other greats did.

[k0kakw0rld]

Kevin Durant

[Smoke117]

Rasheed Wallace

[Kblaze8855]

Rasheed plus the maniac drive would have put one of those refs in a coma.

[Micku]

Rasheed plus the maniac drive would have put one of those refs in a coma.

You right.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Shaq or Wilt with that mentality/work ethic legitimately could've been the GOAT. Of the top 25 players, Robinson, Barkley & Durant would've been the best served

Durant has always been super competitive with great work ethic. He's not a guy who people think has untapped potential

[Xiao Yao You]

Hot Rod Hundley

[Reggie43]

Not close to being the best but somebody like Kemp or Pippen with that drive would have been insanely good.

[Airupthere]

Durant has always been super competitive with great work ethic. He's not a guy who people think has untapped potential

He was so competitive that he let westbrock run okc. He was so competitive that he left okc to join a 73 win team. Right, that’s the pinnacle of competitiveness.

[Marchesk]

Andrew Wiggins or Anthony Bennett









Not really, but those two are quintessential anti-Jordans.

[AlternativeAcc.]

He was so competitive that he let westbrock run okc. He was so competitive that he left okc to join a 73 win team. Right, that’s the pinnacle of competitiveness.

Has nothing to do with work ethic and pursuing individual greatness within the sport. Durants been a dog since day 1

Your 1st point isn't true as durant was always top dog,
The 2nd point helps durants case... he made that decision to win so he could boost his personal legacy.

The guys mentioned like Barkley and davidson didn't have the individual drive to wanna be the best.

You know nothing about the convo or sport you fukking imbecile :oldlol:, but carry on

[light]

It's still LeBron. His drive is also superior to Jordan, Kobe and Bird.

Who else has gone as hard as LeBron for so long? His drive for greatness started when he was 12 and it has never waned. Now he is the epitome of commitment and worth ethic in the NBA.

Jordan lost his competitive edge right in the middle of his career, leading to his early retirement - that's not indicative of great drive. MJ's passion only came in shorter bursts.

[AlternativeAcc.]

It's still LeBron. His drive is also superior to Jordan, Kobe and Bird.

Who else has gone as hard as LeBron for so long?

Jordan lost his competitive edge right in the middle of his career, leading to his early retirement - that's not indicative of great drive.

This also

Lebrons drive and consistency go back to his toddler days in Akron.

Guy literally hasn't stopped practicing and playing ball since he was 2. Still the hardest worker in the league at 37, after 18 straight years of being thr best player with the biggest burden on and off tbr court.

He's the greatest human to ever exist

[tontoz]

Durant has always been super competitive with great work ethic. He's not a guy who people think has untapped potential

I agree that durant doesn't have much untapped potential. From what I have heard he is a basketball junkie.

[light]

Here's Michael Jordan in The Last Dance on his reasons for retiring after only three finals appearances in 1993:

"When you're trying to do something competitively you lose some of the hunger and some of the edge."

He was 29 and his drive had vanished.

MJ cannot compare to LeBron James when it comes to drive.

LeBron's drive is relentless.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I agree that durant doesn't have much untapped potential. From what I have heard he is a basketball junkie.

Anyone who knows the game knows that.

This thread also highlights something pretty funny in that they think Jordan, Kobe, bird had the best work ethics. Its not actually true. Guys like harden, durant, lebron work just as hard and probably harder and care just as much, its just interpreted in a different way due to different personalities, circumstances, and eras

Its true shaq, Barkley, and Robinson didn't have the same dog, but the kobe/Jordan had GOAT work ethic/drive thing is a total myth.

[tontoz]

Anyone who knows the game knows that.

This thread also highlights something pretty funny in that they think Jordan, Kobe, bird had the best work ethics. Its not actually true. Guys like harden, durant, lebron work just as hard and probably harder and care just as much, its just interpreted in a different way due to different personalities, circumstances, and eras

Its true shaq, Barkley, and Robinson didn't have the same dog, but the kobe/Jordan had GOAT work ethic/drive thing is a total myth.

I would say Kobe and Bird really did have a manic work ethic, especially Kobe. Jordan not so much.

Jordan didnt even start lifting weights until he was maybe 27. In his younger days he didn't work out much during the off-season. He just played golf.

I would say in total lebron has worked as hard as anyone ever has. Also guys today benefit from being able to watch youtube clips of past players and copy their moves.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I would say Kobe and Bird really did have a manic work ethic, especially Kobe. Jordan not so much.

Jordan didnt even start lifting weights until he was maybe 27. In his younger days he didn't work out much during the off-season. He just played golf.

I would say in total lebron has worked as hard as anyone ever has. Also guys today benefit from being able to watch youtube clips of past players and copy their moves.

I believe Kobe and bird had great work ethic, Jordan as well. But there's a bunch of random guys we don't know who work harder everyday. People like to overrate how important work ethic was for these guys in order to reach their success. It definitely separated them from the average guy but talent, size, and other factors out of their control were always the main reasons they got to where they got. Theres some Asian kid who works probably 10x as hard as any of those guys who is just trying to be a respected member of his local rec league..

But I think we all intuitively understand this..

The problem is over glorifying Kobe and Jordan's competitive drives and blowing them up to superhuman level when in reality that drive and work ethic isn't uncommon.

[AussieSteve]

Barkley?

Few players did as much with as little off court work ethic

[Airupthere]

I believe Kobe and bird had great work ethic, Jordan as well. But there's a bunch of random guys we don't know who work harder everyday. People sometimes overrated how important work ethic was for these guys. It definitely separated them from the average guy but talent, size, and other factors out of their control were always the main reasons they got to where they got. Theres some Asian kid who works probably 10x as hard as any of those guys who is just trying to be a respected member of his local rec league..

But I think we all intuitively understand this..

The problem is over glorifying Kobe and Jordan's competitive drives and blowing them up to superhuman level when in reality that drive and work ethic isn't uncommon.

Its because they are able to pair it up with success. Im sure there are a ton of hardworkers that just did not end up in the same serendipitous situations whose stories of hardwork we wont ever hear about.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Its because they are able to pair it up with success. Im sure there are a ton of hardworkers that just did not end up in the same serendipitous situations whose stories of hardwork we wont ever hear about.

Exactly

Survivorship bias in full effect

[Micku]

Anyone who knows the game knows that.

This thread also highlights something pretty funny in that they think Jordan, Kobe, bird had the best work ethics. Its not actually true. Guys like harden, durant, lebron work just as hard and probably harder and care just as much, its just interpreted in a different way due to different personalities, circumstances, and eras

Its true shaq, Barkley, and Robinson didn't have the same dog, but the kobe/Jordan had GOAT work ethic/drive thing is a total myth.

It's not really a myth cuz their peers commented on it, didn't they? I think they said when they went to the Olympics, they saw Kobe working harder than any of them. They heard stories, but they actually got to see it live. This inspired Wade and LeBron to work out more on their game.

And with Kobe expanding on his game during the 10 season. He sought out Hakeem to work on his post moves, and executed during the regular season. After this, then LeBron and Dwight Howard follow suit.

Wade even commented on it here at the 5:07 min mark:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFTsUguzfG8#t=5m07s


Not to say other guys don't work hard, but Kobe seemed like he was on another lvl of it. Maybe nowadays? I'm not too sure. But Kobe had stories of his work ethic that even his peers had to take a moment to praise him.

[tontoz]

I think there is some correlation between ability and and desire. if you know that you have the talent to be great and/or win titles that can be powerful motivation.

[AlternativeAcc.]

It's not really a myth cuz their peers commented on it, didn't they? I think they said when they went to the Olympics, they saw Kobe working harder than any of them. They heard stories, but they actually got to see it live. This inspired Wade and LeBron to work out more on their game.

And with Kobe expanding on his game during the 10 season. He sought out Hakeem to work on his post moves, and executed during the regular season. After this, then LeBron and Dwight Howard follow suit.

Wade even commented on it here at the 5:07 min mark:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFTsUguzfG8#t=5m07s


Not to say other guys don't work hard, but Kobe seemed like he was on another lvl of it. Maybe nowadays? I'm not too sure. But Kobe had stories of his work ethic that even his peers had to take a moment to praise him.

Did Kobe do that everyday? Of course not... and if he did that's just dumb. Thats like working manual labor for 20 hours a day and not sleeping. Yeah you're working hard but you're not getting anywhere with it. And the word 'training' is so vague... what is training? Taking thousands of jumpers over and over? Thats muscle memory shit. I'm not impressed with those marathon jump shooting sessions masquerading as some next level training regime. Theres levels to thr game and watching tape/analyzing the mental side of the sport and how you can maximize commadre are aspects where Kobe i feel slacked...

I'm not surprised Kobe has these stories as he deeply cared about his peers opinions. I'm sure he did this deliberately at times so people could write about his work ethic. He was smart about personal branding, ill give Kobe that

[Micku]

Did Kobe do that everyday? Of course not... and if he did that's just dumb. Thats like working manual labor for 20 hours a day and not sleeping. Yeah you're working hard but you're not getting anywhere with it. And the word 'training' is so vague... what is training? Taking thousands of jumpers over and over? Thats muscle memory shit. I'm not impressed with those marathon jump shooting sessions masquerading as some next level training regime. Theres levels to thr game and watching tape/analyzing the mental side of the sport and how you can maximize commadre are aspects where Kobe i feel slacked...

I'm not surprised Kobe has these stories as he deeply cared about his peers opinions. I'm sure he did this deliberately at times so people could write about his work ethic. He was smart about personal branding, ill give Kobe that

It just sounds like you just don't want to believe that he did what his coaches, peers, and trainers said that he did. If you don't want to believe it, then there's nothing to really say more about it to change your mind. There are sources out there that many ppl commented on it, while he played and after. He got this type of talk even when he was a teenager.

Shaq commented on it, his teammates, opponents and etc. They were even ppl say that he worked just as hard or harder than MJ at his game. But this always always been the case with the nba. There are players who work hard, but there's another set who work even harder than them. And then there are some who don't even work hard and yet they are good still. Like it's been reported that Bird worked harder than his teammates in Boston as well and harder than most of his peers. I dunno if you believe that either.

You could argue that he worked harder but not smarter, but who knows for sure unless you are an expert on it. But the Lakers trainer said Kobe was an example of that sometimes talent doesn't mean everything. Kobe maxed out by working hard, but some of his other peers were more talented yet he is considered to be better than him. Here is the Lakers trainer comments:




"Kobe taught me that talent is the most overrated thing in life; it's what you do with your talent."
...

"He was talented, but what if I told you he wasn't the most talented guy out there?" Vitti says on the podcast. "I'm telling you, and I've had them all, there's nothing really special about Kobe. I mean he's a big guy, but he's not that big. He was quick, but he's not that quick. He's fast, he wasn't that fast. He was powerful, but he wasn't that powerful. I mean, there were other players that had more talent than he did, so what was there about him that more talented players had zero rings and he ended up with five?"

...

Bryant not only worked harder than anyone else, he worked smarter than everyone else, and he was intellectually brilliant at his job, Vitti says. During halftime, when other players looked at messages, emails, and tweets on their phones, Bryant watched film from the first half of the game on a laptop in the training room to see how he could do better in the second half. The superstar athlete himself has attributed his past progress on the court to an intense work ethic and obsessively studying other players.


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/23/lakers-trainer-gary-vitti-on-what-kobe-bryant-taught-him.html

Gary Vitti been there since the 80s too. Seen Magic, Worthy, Kareem, Cooper, Shaq, Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and etc. He wanted Shaq to be the GOAT, but Shaq was like naw, I ain't bout dat life. Kobe was, but didn't have the physical gifts.

He isn't the only who commented on this. Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, Horry, Fisher, Harper, Byron Scott. These guys seen legendary b-ball players in their time. MJ, Pippen, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, and etc. They praise Kobe specifically this way. I dunno what else you need.

[tontoz]

Yeah kobe was different. Jordan was a killer when he walked into the court whether it was a game or practice. Once he walked off the court that switch turned off. Seemed like kobe didn't have that off switch until he retired.

[2much_knowledge]

It just sounds like you just don't want to believe that he did what his coaches, peers, and trainers said that he did. If you don't want to believe it, then there's nothing to really say more about it to change your mind. There are sources out there that many ppl commented on it, while he played and after. He got this type of talk even when he was a teenager.

Shaq commented on it, his teammates, opponents and etc. They were even ppl say that he worked just as hard or harder than MJ at his game. But this always always been the case with the nba. There are players who work hard, but there's another set who work even harder than them. And then there are some who don't even work hard and yet they are good still. Like it's been reported that Bird worked harder than his teammates in Boston as well and harder than most of his peers. I dunno if you believe that either.

You could argue that he worked harder but not smarter, but who knows for sure unless you are an expert on it. But the Lakers trainer said Kobe was an example of that sometimes talent doesn't mean everything. Kobe maxed out by working hard, but some of his other peers were more talented yet he is considered to be better than him. Here is the Lakers trainer comments:



https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/23/lakers-trainer-gary-vitti-on-what-kobe-bryant-taught-him.html

Gary Vitti been there since the 80s too. Seen Magic, Worthy, Kareem, Cooper, Shaq, Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and etc. He wanted Shaq to be the GOAT, but Shaq was like naw, I ain't bout dat life. Kobe was, but didn't have the physical gifts.

He isn't the only who commented on this. Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, Horry, Fisher, Harper, Byron Scott. These guys seen legendary b-ball players in their time. MJ, Pippen, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, and etc. They praise Kobe specifically this way. I dunno what else you need.

It sounds exactly like that. Let him be happy and tell him than lebron works harder even tho its not true so he can go to sleep in peace

[2much_knowledge]

It's still LeBron. His drive is also superior to Jordan, Kobe and Bird.

Who else has gone as hard as LeBron for so long? His drive for greatness started when he was 12 and it has never waned. Now he is the epitome of commitment and worth ethic in the NBA.

Jordan lost his competitive edge right in the middle of his career, leading to his early retirement - that's not indicative of great drive. MJ's passion only came in shorter bursts.

What a surprise, managed to slip lebrons name in a thread that has nothing to do with him