List of the top 10 shooting guards ever. Come argue about number 4...and 6...

[Kblaze8855]

.....and 8 probably.


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2103060449020104.jpeg

[RRR3]

Iverson over West :roll:

[Smoke117]

Iverson at four is definitely a joke.

[SouBeachTalents]

If we're including West, who sometimes gets left out of this discussion and is considered a point, I would assume the majority of people's ranking would start out

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4/5. Wade
4/5. Harden
6. Drexler

After that it'd be a lot more open to interpretation. Me personally, I'd probably go something like

7. Gervin
8. Iverson
9. McGrady
10. Allen

[JohnMax]

Klay Thompson should be #10. He showed what happens when you pair up two elite shooters.

[fsvr54]

Iverson in the top 5 and over West is laughable.

Mitch Richmond was a better player than Reggie Miller

[FultzNationRISE]

If we're talking about cornerstone players for winning rather individual statistical accomplishment and 'resume', I'm taking Manu over at least half that list.

[Airupthere]

If we're talking about cornerstone players for winning rather individual statistical accomplishment and 'resume', I'm taking Manu over at least half that list.

Youre looking through the glasses of the spurs’ success.

[Kblaze8855]

If we're talking about cornerstone players for winning rather individual statistical accomplishment and 'resume', I'm taking Manu over at least half that list.

The “at least” is the main problem there.

[FultzNationRISE]

Youre looking through the glasses of the spurs’ success.


We do that for everyone.

You think MJ is still considered the GOAT (before Lebron came along) if the Bulls only win 1 or 2 chips?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If we're talking about cornerstone players for winning rather individual statistical accomplishment and 'resume', I'm taking Manu over at least half that list.

I agree with nationrise. I would make my list something like this:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Jerry West
5) Manu Ginobili
6) James Harden
7) Clyde Drexler
8) Allen Iverson
9) Reggie Miller
10) Ray Allen

Right now, Manu has a better playoff run in 2005 over every player I put below him. Manu's 2005 run is very underrated and similar to Wade the next year in 06 because both had the big men teammates who made all the finals in the 2000s era (Shaq, Duncan).

Harden is the guy who can rank as high as #3 or #4 when his career is done but he needs at least one decent finals performance until I put him in that top 5.

[FultzNationRISE]

The “at least” is the main problem there.

'At least half' was probably pushing it. But top 5-7 for sure.

[Xiao Yao You]

Iverson wouldn't make mine

[Airupthere]

We do that for everyone.

You think MJ is still considered the GOAT (before Lebron came along) if the Bulls only win 1 or 2 chips?

But MJ types of players are great individual players regardless of team success. Manu is mostly a role player.

[bullettooth]

Jerry West should be #1, he has a lot of finals losses. Apparently that's the criteria for being GOAT these days.

[FultzNationRISE]

Jerry West should be #1, he has a lot of finals losses. Apparently that's the criteria for being GOAT these days.

Hey. Come over here for a second, I wanna talk to you.




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DazzlingDecentAplomadofalcon-max-1mb.gif

[AlternativeAcc.]

Bogus lost...


1. Harden
2. West
3. Jordan
4. Baldbe
5. Klay


Mine looks different because there's no agenda/appeal to popularity

[TheGoatest]

Jerry West should be #1, he has a lot of finals losses. Apparently that's the criteria for being GOAT these days.

No, the SG/SF hybrid John Havlicek should be #1. He is 8/8 in the finals.

[999Guy]

There’s no situation where I’d prefer Iverson over Manu.

[2much_knowledge]

Bogus lost...


1. Harden
2. West
3. Jordan
4. Baldbe
5. Klay


Mine looks different because there's no agenda/appeal to popularity

No wonder your post suck. They suck at a variety of topics. Versatile

[ghostfacekilla]

Y'all r fnkked n the head having d-wade at #3

[Gohan]

Iverson is too low. He’s a top 10 player of all time. Lmao at jerry west being better than him. These posters:facepalm

[Mr. Woke]

Harden should be ahead of Iverson and Wade.

Anyone who thinks that Iverson and Wade had better careers than Harden is flat out delusional.

[Mr. Woke]

Y'all r fnkked n the head having d-wade at #3

Harden is better than Wade for sure.

He has an MVP (which in a vacuum is more impressive than a Finals MVP) and three times as many All-NBA First Team selections.

[Kblaze8855]

If I had to pick a career for my son Wades would be the easy selection. 5 finals runs, 3 rings, a legendary performance to win one of them? Added to that a 13 time all star, some all d teams, and a gang of all nba teams? I’d take being an mvp level player over the many rings but Wade was an mvp level player. He’s not the Tony Parker, Cedric Maxwell, or Jojo White kinda finals mvp. More like a Jerry West finals mvp who everyone knows was elite even if Russell and Wilt ate up all the mvps.

I wouldn’t right now even consider giving my son Hardens career over Wades. Now if he wins the next few with the Nets and looks better than KD on doing it career wise it’s another story.

I won’t even go into basketball wise. Someone would take offense no matter what.

[RRR3]

If I had to pick a career for my son Wades would be the easy selection. 5 finals runs, 3 rings, a legendary performance to win one of them? Added to that a 13 time all star, some all d teams, and a gang of all nba teams? I’d take being an mvp level player over the many rings but Wade was an mvp level player. He’s not the Tony Parker, Cedric Maxwell, or Jojo White kinda finals mvp. More like a Jerry West finals mvp who everyone knows was elite even if Russell and Wilt ate up all the mvps.

I wouldn’t right now even consider giving my son Hardens career over Wades. Now if he wins the next few with the Nets and looks better than KD on doing it career wise it’s another story.

I won’t even go into basketball wise. Someone would take offense no matter what.
Unless I missed something Harden is still ranked lower than Wade by almost everyone outside of people who just don’t like Wade I guess.

[k0kakw0rld]

Ray should be higher than Reggie.

Harden should right after Wade at the 4.

[light]

Jerry West should be above Wade and Iverson and maybe even Kobe.

[Gohan]

Unless I missed something Harden is still ranked lower than Wade by almost everyone outside of people who just don’t like Wade I guess.


You got the game all ****ed up. It’s the other way around. Harden was better than wade ever was. Harden haters just don’t like how he’s played. Tbh he’s a whole tier above wade

[Smoke117]

Iverson is too low. He’s a top 10 player of all time. Lmao at jerry west being better than him. These posters:facepalm

Are you still rolling with this laughable nonsense?

[ghostfacekilla]

If I had to pick a career for my son Wades would be the easy selection.

Well then if i had to pick a gender for your grandson transitioning would be an easy selection.

A truthful statement would be that wade never won any ring without a TOP10 ALL TIME teammate, including a GOAT candidate in his prime. What next james worthy 3rd best SF?Both of those top 10 teammates also went to and won titles without him. All of his finals appearances with these teammates went through a weak ass east. 1 ring was steered to him if not outright rigged AF. 1 ring his team survived the very brinky brink of elimination due to a fortunate set of circumstances that had absolutely nothing to do with him. He very well should have not won that one.
The other stuff u attach to him are part popularity awards and i am not even sure how many of those 13 AS games he is getting to if he careered out West. These accolades u credit him with surely could have gone to many other SG had the roles been reversed.
I dont like Hardens style but this fool can cause problems and is the obvious candidate that has separated himself from the pack behind Kobe. The group below them includes wade and has a dozen or so candidates that r all separated by 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
Now if the list were court side ooooooof snafus Wade would make #3 for slipping on the scorers table when he fake spontaneously grabbed the mic and tried to jump on it all cool just like he in reality preplanned to do after his final game...right behind some guy on the washington generals and jackie moon

[Kblaze8855]

A truthful statement would be that wade never won any ring without a TOP10 ALL TIME teammate


You established yourself as a troll right off the bat there.

Nobody is actually stupid enough to believe that career rankings makes aging players still be who their real versions are. Acting like 06 Shaq was worth calling top 10 all time because his previous play demands it means you’re either willing to lie to yourself or are just fishing for something to get an argument going. You can’t talk for real with someone like that.

Shaq was still good and demanded more attention than his numbers suggest.....but he wasn’t the real Shaq. It was like Moses Malone on the Hawks. Productive(more so than 06 Shaq even) but only an idiot would say Nique played with a top 10 all time player(as Moses was before Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem and Shaq took spots).

If you’re willing to pretend that counts as an all time top 10 teammate you’re obviously not even being serious so I’ll let you be.

[TheGoatest]

Harden is better than Wade for sure.

He has an MVP (which in a vacuum is more impressive than a Finals MVP) and three times as many All-NBA First Team selections.

Wade's peak might be #2 of all time, and his 2008-09 season is greater than any single Harden, Kobe or West season.
Wade fell off hard not long after that though, and his career/longevity is probably #4, so in the end him being #3 overall seems about right.

[LoneyROY7]

Wade's peak might be #2 of all time, and his 2008-09 season is greater than any single Harden, Kobe or West season.
Wade fell off hard not long after that though, and his career/longevity is probably #4, so in the end him being #3 overall seems about right.

It's really not. Harden's 18-19 season is superior by most metrics (PER, BPM, WS, obviously counting stats).

Wade's team was a fringe play-off team in the East that year, while Harden led the Rockets to the 4th seed in the West with CP and Capela both missing near half the year.

On a side note, Harden not winning his 2nd MVP that year was an absolute robbery.

[ShawkFactory]

It's really not. Harden's 18-19 season is superior by most metrics (PER, BPM, WS, obviously counting stats).

Wade's team was a fringe play-off team in the East that year, while Harden led the Rockets to the 4th seed in the West with CP and Capela both missing near half the year.

You don’t need to compare numbers. I shudder to think about what 09 Wade would do with all space given nowadays.

[LoneyROY7]

You don’t need to compare numbers. I shudder to think about what 09 Wade would do with all space given nowadays.

Cool hypothetical.

[ShawkFactory]

Cool hypothetical.

The point is is that comparing numbers is useless. Larry Bird’s highest PER was 26.5.

Wade was better at more things than Harden.

[Kblaze8855]

It's really not. Harden's 18-19 season is superior by most metrics (PER, BPM, WS, obviously counting stats).

Wade's team was a fringe play-off team in the East that year, while Harden led the Rockets to the 4th seed in the West with CP and Capela both missing near half the year.

On a side note, Harden not winning his 2nd MVP that year was an absolute robbery.

Playing 58 and 67 games isn’t half the year. Marion playing 42 games(starting exactly 41) is missing half the year. Not that it was the real Marion anyway. The entire 09 Heat roster was washed up(Jermaine neal was there for 27 games) or never were special to begin with.

Chris Paul was obviously more help than Wade had even at 58 games. Wade had worse players....who still weren’t generally healthy.

The most reliable sidekick he had was Beasley.....

Im not sure I’d take Beasley in his prime to start on a team I wanted to do well. With his head on right maybe but....

Hell you had him in Houston for a minute. What impression did you get? He was only 27 at the time.

[LoneyROY7]

Playing 58 and 67 games isn’t half the year. Marion playing 42 games(starting exactly 41) is missing half the year. Not that it was the real Marion anyway. The entire 09 Heat roster was washed up(Jermaine neal was there for 27 games) or never were special to begin with.

Chris Paul was obviously more help than Wade had even at 58 games. Wade had worse players....who still weren’t generally healthy.

The most reliable sidekick he had was Beasley.....

Im not sure I’d take Beasley in his prime to start on a team I wanted to do well. With his head on right maybe but....

Hell you had him in Houston for a minute. What impression did you get? He was only 27 at the time.

Harden is just a different level of a floor-raiser than Wade. That's not really even debatable TBH.

He takes groups of role players to heights few that have ever played the game can, so miss me with the roster stuff.

[Kblaze8855]

As a rule....maybe don’t bring up rosters if you don’t wanna talk about them.

James harden has never played a series at any “height” of note other than 2012. Let’s not act like we have a Rick Barry or Hakeem situation here winning rings with guys history barely remembers. I’d imagine you would point to 2015 and 17 as groups of role players(With Dwight missing half of 15 I wouldn’t argue). I’m not sure what other years you could mean. Paul was there 2 others and they won like 40 games the other one. Maybe there’s a year I’m forgetting. The first one in Houston maybe? I don’t feel like doing a lot of looking into it but....I’m not sure what years you mean when he just had role players and did anything amazing winning wise. You must mean 17 I guess. Not that they really mattered in the playoffs. That’s the year Harden went like 3 of whatever as Aldridge buried them.

[LoneyROY7]

It's funny b/c this debate will fall by the wayside in the next few years as the rings start to come for James. And they will.

And beyond that, when it's all said and done, longevity will make this a non-discussion. By the time Wade hit 30, his mobility was already falling off precipitously. Meanwhile, let's take a look at Harden right now at 31:

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xQHhvjA4srxmyD7sOd/giphy.gif

Man's first-step still has defenders turning around to keep up with him. The ability to maintain close to your peak level of ability for an elongated period matters. ALOT. And that's something Wade could never do.

[Chick Stern]

Wade and AI over West is knee slapping laughable.

[r0drig0lac]

No wonder your post suck. They suck at a variety of topics. Versatile

:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

It's funny b/c this debate will fall by the wayside in the next few years as the rings start to come for James. And they will.

And beyond that, when it's all said and done, longevity will make this a non-discussion. By the time Wade hit 30, his mobility was already falling off precipitously. Meanwhile, let's take a look at Harden right now at 31:

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xQHhvjA4srxmyD7sOd/giphy.gif

Man's first-step still has defenders turning around to keep up with him. The ability to maintain close to your peak level of ability for an elongated period matters. ALOT. And that's something Wade could never do.


Well sure you can absolutely build a resume that makes people who don’t remember the players in question rank guys incorrectly. Happens all the time. Greatness being so abstract means it’s never just a question of better player. But the question of better player....is a question of better player.

He could easily have a better career if he somehow manages to get main credit for the Nets rings instead of KD but unless he’s gonna turn to a great defender in retrospect he won’t be better at basketball.

A bunch of people who are 10 now thinking it in 2042 isn’t really a factor in that.

They are too close on offense for the defensive advantage to not settle it.

The question of which career you rather have remains to be settled. Today? Hard to pass on Wades.

Minus 06 it’s more of a question. A sidekick rings vs the man never winning thing. Like James Worthy vs Nique. With 06? All out the window. That was a game changer.

[LoneyROY7]

Well sure you can absolutely build a resume that makes people who don’t remember the players in question rank guys incorrectly. Happens all the time. Greatness being so abstract means it’s never just a question of better player. But the question of better player....is a question of better player.

He could easily have a better career if he somehow manages to get main credit for the Nets rings instead of KD but unless he’s gonna turn to a great defender in retrospect he won’t be better at basketball.

A bunch of people who are 10 now thinking it in 2042 isn’t really a factor in that.

They are too close on offense for the defensive advantage to not settle it.

The question of which career you rather have remains to be settled. Today? Hard to pass on Wades.

Minus 06 it’s more of a question. A sidekick rings vs the man never winning thing. Like James Worthy vs Nique. With 06? All out the window. That was a game changer.

How is offense close? Harden distorts the defense to a different degree than Wade. The range, the handles, the playmaking. The offensive production speaks for itself. Both were/are notorious foul drawers so that can't be something to knock Harden.

Harden has one of the most impressive 5-year runs offensively we've seen in recent memory.

[Kblaze8855]

Of course he’s had one of the most impressive runs. And even in a league that lets Isiah Thomas put up 29/6 on 63% Ts when Jordan had mvp years of 29/4 on 53 in way more minutes and taking more shots...it’s still impressive.

Its just...not as impressive as it would have been to accomplish in other situations.

Only an idiot would say it isn’t amazing...it just...would be harder to imagine happening in leagues that don’t openly admit they made an effort to open the game up. And while I’m sure you take that as a personal knock on James had you been here at the time you would know we were saying the same thing then. That the new way of calling the game made Wade unfair.

But in the end he did something more impressive with his BS advantage.

And sure if the Warriors didn’t exist that may not be the case. But you can’t dismiss Wade in 2020 hypotheticals about what he’d do but lean on what James does in a hypothetical with a worse conference.

Either what happened in reality counts or it doesn’t.

What Wade actually did was just....greater. 29-35ppg and losing vs 26-30 and powering your team to a ring? It’s an easy pick career wise. If Harden somehow manages to put KD in his back pocket for a playoff run it’s a different conversation. The way he stacks assists it’s not unlikely he’d win a finals mvp unless KD absolutely spazzes out.

[LoneyROY7]

Yep, there are the hypotheticals. Harden's production is clearly better, so you gotta find yourself a way to argue out of it.

Would have made Wade unfair? Harden IS unfair. And he has been for about 6 years running now. Harden has more in his bag offensively than Wade did. It is what is.

[Kblaze8855]

Hardens production is better than most of Jordans and all of Kobes. Who argues out of it? People just don’t care. There’s a significant difference.

And you must have misread on Wade. People said it wasn’t fair having to guard him with the rule changes favoring slashers. I wasn’t talking about what he’d do today...though that’s fairly obvious.

[LoneyROY7]

I love that you say "there's a significant difference" despite the stats as if that's the only method I use to judge a player. I've seen EXTENSIVE work of all 4 of these SGs you just mentioned.

Harden has an extremely rare combination of quickness, strength, handles, footwork, and shooting ability. That has nothing to do with numbers or production...that's pure offensive talent. That's eye test.

[Proctor]

Yep, there are the hypotheticals. Harden's production is clearly better, so you gotta find yourself a way to argue out of it.

Would have made Wade unfair? Harden IS unfair. And he has been for about 6 years running now. Harden has more in his bag offensively than Wade did. It is what is.

Harden is extremely unfair to his teammates in the playoffs :yaohappy:

[Kblaze8855]

I meant there’s a difference between dismissing the production of Harden by arguing out of it....as opposed to people just not caring about it in the first place. We all saw Harden do 35 or whatever a game and huge assists and all that.

And many fans....almost all in some comparisons....simply don’t care.

Don’t need to argue about them. Many fans simply do not care what his numbers are in comparison to people who never played in such a situation.

Just like I don’t care that Giannis can do peak Shaq numbers in like 31 minutes a game like he did last year.

Im aware of it. I acknowledge the insanity of it vs his peers.

I don’t compare it to Shaq or Hakeem. I know the situation....it makes me not care very much. You think it’s a harden thing....it’s a watching basketball all my life thing.

Harden, Giannis, Beal....IT...Jokic...whoever. I know the league is built for them to prosper. I acknowledge you still have to be great to do the things they do but I’m simply not doing 1 to 1 statistical comparisons with the greats.

[LoneyROY7]

That's the beauty of highlights if you are deft enough when watching them, you can determine a player's skillset regardless of what's going on around them.

I personally love watching Skip and Shannon when discussing Harden b/c it comes from a place of pure objectivity considering they are massive MJ and Bron stans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvWsYRnRlSU&t=5s&ab_channel=SkipandShannon%3AUNDISPUTED

Skip: "You wanna talk about special...every night I'm just in awe of the artistry. I don't see anything like James Harden's genius on offense."

Shannon: "He has no weakness in his game."

These two gentlemen have been following the game as long or longer than you have, and yet they're not over there pining about generation's past. They recognize the skillset.

[Airupthere]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Wade

[Kblaze8855]

I can’t watch any of those kinda shows. Trolls on tv is about all it is. Shannon is often a funny troll but they aren’t there to be taken serious.

Besides only other trolls don’t acknowledge Hardens skill set. It just doesn’t mean he’s better than the many(well...probably all) swing men his league allows him to produce more than.

He should be able to ho himself into some rings with his lame over the top super teaming which is in fashion these days but that isn’t gonna mean much to the people who actually know the others in question(Jordan, Kobe, Wade and so on at the top of the list).

As of today Wade has the superior career and as long as defense counts was the superior player. One of those may change. The other is likely already over.

Hardens the only one even in that range who wasn’t a great defender. West was on the first like....4 all D teams. Harden isn’t as bad on D as his old reputation but the other guys were all elite....either for their leagues or all time.

He’s about as high as he can get probably. He could pass Wades career. The basketball argument just isn’t there. I suppose you could say it’s like Nash vs Paul or Kidd where’s there’s a massive defensive difference we learn to look past and put them on a similar level....or like Steph if he had not actually won before super teaming it.

You would have a leg to stand on to make some of those arguments.

[LoneyROY7]

"his league allows allow him to produce more then." Lolll.

Anyway, you can cut it down simplistically if you want you, but I prefer to look at in a more macro sense. A player with all-time offense and just above average defense can have a greater overall impact than a player with great offense and great defense.

[Kblaze8855]

“Lol” all you want. Guards out here dropping 32/11/10 with back to back to back triple double seasons. Tweener forwards doing 30/14/6 in 30 minutes a game. Centers 27/11/9 on 57% shooting. Hardens 35/7 or whatever is hardly shocking in that context. This league is obviously allowing some insane stat lines and you can’t be surprised when people aren’t blown away anymore. Every season it seems like 3 people are on some “Never before seen” shit while not actually being better than the Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, and Kobe types who did not produce the same in leagues that didn’t cater to it.

You need a world of people born in like 2008 and later who don’t remember any other world to take these things at face value. Meaning one day you will get it. A lot of people who were already grown before then will just have to die off.

The nerds will inherit the earth. The “Was harden actually the GOAT?” arguments will begin when the NBA goes the way of baseball and nothing you can’t count matters anymore. I’ve been saying for years Harden will be considered the father of modern offense.

And I absolutely believe it.

It just won’t mean he’s better than Wade was at basketball. Even if people who never saw him believe it.

[Shooter]

Jerry West should be #1, he has a lot of finals losses. Apparently that's the criteria for being GOAT these days.

7,491 playoff points is

Keep up

[tpols]

Anybody that has Allen Iverson ranked over Clyde, Harden, Ray or Reggie has their basketball card immediately revoked.

[Boris Pen]

Michael Jordan
Reggie Miller
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Kobe Bryant
Allen Iverson
Ray Allen
Klay Thompson
James Harden
Michael Redd

[Kblaze8855]

Anybody that has Allen Iverson ranked over Clyde, Harden, Ray or Reggie has their basketball card immediately revoked.


He already was. Including by almost all of the people who may actually have the clout to talk about who gets cards revoked. Half the people dudes like you insist were better than AI wouldn’t even agree. Reggie is probably one of them. He was one of the players to unanimously select AI to be added to the top 50 list while he himself got I wanna say 2 votes when every voter was a player who was in the league with them.

Think what you want. Post the “evidence” you think matters. People who know the game have absolutely been on record with the opposite opinion.

Go on and snatch the basketball cards of dudes who played and coached in a league you barely even remember. 30-40 years of in person experience and game planning and on the court execution compared to you having google, box scores, and memories of older Reggie when you were 11. Yea....you should be the one deciding who has credibility.

[tpols]

He already was. Including by almost all of the people who may actually have the clout to talk about who gets cards revoked. Half the people dudes like you insist were better than AI wouldn’t even agree. Reggie is probably one of them. He was one of the players to unanimously select AI to be added to the top 50 list while he himself got I wanna say 2 votes when every voter was a player who was in the league with them.

Think what you want. Post the “evidence” you think matters. People who know the game have absolutely been on record with the opposite opinion.

Go on and snatch the basketball cards of dudes who played and coached in a league you barely even remember. 30-40 years of in person experience and game planning and on the court execution compared to you having google, box scores, and memories of older Reggie when you were 11. Yea....you should be the one deciding who has credibility.

That's politics. Iverson looked cool. Seeing Iverson move and score a bucket is far more entertaining than seeing reggie miller make a jump shot. (that isn't a clutch one that is) But the fact of the matter is Reggie put the ball in the hoop at a far better rate. That's just the simple truth. He also had much better intangibles but I don't even want to get into that. We literally saw these guys play head to head in the playoffs over and over and over. Reggie scored the same amount of points on like 7 less shots. Its ridiculous.

[999Guy]

Why can’t people be dumb and wrong, en masse?

Does anybody really believe Iverson would make more teams better than Reggie? Peak for peak or so on?

Mother****ers avoided the 3 point line for decades. People are stupid. Coaches are stupid. Owners are stupid.

[Kblaze8855]

That's politics. Iverson looked cool. Seeing Iverson move and score a bucket is far more entertaining than seeing reggie miller make a jump shot. (that isn't a clutch one that is) But the fact of the matter is Reggie put the ball in the hoop at a far better rate. That's just the simple truth. He also had much better intangibles but I don't even want to get into that. We literally saw these guys play head to head in the playoffs over and over and over. Reggie scored the same amount of points on like 7 less shots. Its ridiculous.


Sure....politics. People who know a lot more than you (or me) can’t just come to a different conclusion based on having different and more information.

[bizil]

GOAT wise:

1. MJ
2. Mamba
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden
6. AI
7. Drexler
8. Iceman
9. Ray
10.Reggie

HM: Vince, Pete, T Mac, Monroe, Sam Jones

[Kblaze8855]

Why can’t people be dumb and wrong, en masse?

Does anybody really believe Iverson would make more teams better than Reggie? Peak for peak or so on?

Mother****ers avoided the 3 point line for decades. People are stupid. Coaches are stupid. Owners are stupid.

And the guy pulling a pallet Jack for a living who has never even heard the full discussion from a timeout is brilliant?

I know more about what I do than NBA coaches. I’m sure of it. And they know more than me about nba basketball.

Being right or wrong about any individual issue is another matter...especially given the power of hindsight. But whatever conclusion is reached is from a place of more information than I have. We out here watching a game, eating chips, taking bathroom breaks, and drinking beer acting more informed than people who live with the players 9 months a year, compose game plans, and in many cases played for a decade or more before that.

95% of ISH don’t know the name or source of their teams offensive style or have any real idea where everyone goes on any play at any given moment.

Put an nba coach and a smart mouthed online google fan in a room watching film and see who can explain what’s happening off the ball and why. Where the concepts originated. What coach they got that play from and what offense said coach learned it from. The standard counters to the approach being taken.

Us here....not casuals....us?

Mostly basketball illiterate while insisting how knowledgeable we are.

The more I’ve learned the last 40 years the more obvious it is I don’t know shit. Just a lot more than most.

The gap between me and “casuals” probably isn’t as wide as the gap between me and the worst coach in the nba. Fans are so surface level it’s crazy but steady feeling like the smartest guy in the room.

[tpols]

That's a common logical fallacy called appeal to authority. We've all watched 1000s of games. If I shadowed you at your job for 1000 days straight I'm pretty sure I'd know exactly what you were doing.

[Kblaze8855]

You really think you introduced me to the concept of appealing to authority?

Some things you don’t learn from a fans perspective. If you doubt that take your ass to a coach attempting to run the triangle and try to figure out where to stand and move. All those games watching Shaq and Kobe won’t do shit for you. People played against it for years then took 6 months to learn it...poorly....despite years of seeing it on film and in person.

I’m old enough to have played for guys trying to put on triangle concepts when it was all the rage in the 90s. Turns out the hundreds of Bulls games don’t teach you where to go after the handoff as the 4.

Basketball isn’t half as simple as the geniuses on the internet try to make it so they look smart to each other.

Years of dumbed down talk aimed at simpletons watching ESPN give fans the impression little is going on. All they learn is extreme surface level.

You would probably **** up a weave drill.

[tpols]

If I did it 1000 times I'd **** it up? What do you think I'm retarded? NBA is entertainment and just like any news outlet for a major money machine you have to protect the brand. Id rather hear the opinion on something from a fairly intelligent person than a politician.

[bizil]

The THING about Reggie is he's one of the most ONE DIMENSIONAL legends of all time. With AI you get alpha dog scoring AND one of the best passing SG's of all time. From there, AI was a more disruptive defender. And was ever a better REBOUNDER than a 6'7 Miller!!! LMAO!!!!!! AI wasn't an elite rebounding guard by ANY MEANS. But's he's only 6'0 with his 3.7 RPG. Miller ONLY grabbed 3.0 RPG! So how can ANYBODY justify Miller being a better player than AI peak-prime wise???

Miller is NOWHERE CLOSE to being a top 10 SG peak-prime wise. GOAT wise you can justify it due to his resume and impact on the 3ball. Once again he was one of the best shooter-scorer types of all time ( pure shooters who average 20+PPG). CLUTCH af! But that's ALL when it comes to Reggie. At least AI can swing between PG and SG and put up a 30 PPG and 8 APG seasons! And be a league MVP-face of the league type who can will a team that had NO BUSINESS in the Finals to that level!

[Kblaze8855]

So a vast effort to make AI look good 20 years ago to increase...whatever....is why only people who don’t know shit about the game think he wasn’t that great. Meanwhile every one of them also rank Duncan as great despite boring the public to death. Really picky guys those.....well...the entirety of the basketball world. Far more plausible explanation than you being a know nothing loud mouth talking out his ass like almost all of us are.

[Gohan]

The THING about Reggie is he's one of the most ONE DIMENSIONAL legends of all time. With AI you get alpha dog scoring AND one of the best passing SG's of all time. From there, AI was a more disruptive defender. And was ever a better REBOUNDER than a 6'7 Miller!!! LMAO!!!!!! AI wasn't an elite rebounding guard by ANY MEANS. But's he's only 6'0 with his 3.7 RPG. Miller ONLY grabbed 3.0 RPG! So how can ANYBODY justify Miller being a better player than AI peak-prime wise???

Miller is NOWHERE CLOSE to being a top 10 SG peak-prime wise. GOAT wise you can justify it due to his resume and impact on the 3ball. Once again he was one of the best shooter-scorer types of all time ( pure shooters who average 20+PPG). CLUTCH af! But that's ALL when it comes to Reggie. At least AI can swing between PG and SG and put up a 30 PPG and 8 APG seasons! And be a league MVP-face of the league type who can will a team that had NO BUSINESS in the Finals to that level!

Great post!!!!

[tpols]

The THING about Reggie is he's one of the most ONE DIMENSIONAL legends of all time. With AI you get alpha dog scoring AND one of the best passing SG's of all time. From there, AI was a more disruptive defender. And was ever a better REBOUNDER than a 6'7 Miller!!! LMAO!!!!!! AI wasn't an elite rebounding guard by ANY MEANS. But's he's only 6'0 with his 3.7 RPG. Miller ONLY grabbed 3.0 RPG! So how can ANYBODY justify Miller being a better player than AI peak-prime wise???

Miller is NOWHERE CLOSE to being a top 10 SG peak-prime wise. GOAT wise you can justify it due to his resume and impact on the 3ball. Once again he was one of the best shooter-scorer types of all time ( pure shooters who average 20+PPG). CLUTCH af! But that's ALL when it comes to Reggie. At least AI can swing between PG and SG and put up a 30 PPG and 8 APG seasons! And be a league MVP-face of the league type who can will a team that had NO BUSINESS in the Finals to that level!

Dude Iverson was a negative defender. He weighed 165 lbs soaking wet and got picked on. And he shot like shit in the playoffs even in the mid 2000s when they let everybody score. Bad offense and bad defense. He was a negative player but an exciting player that brought in MONEY. That's it.

[Kblaze8855]

Dude Iverson was a negative defender. He weighed 165 lbs soaking wet and got picked on. And he shot like shit in the playoffs even in the mid 2000s when they let everybody score. Bad offense and bad defense. He was a negative player but an exciting player that brought in MONEY. That's it.


And literally 100% of the players you think were great and had a great IQ would read that...call you a moron...and you genuinely wouldn’t see what it meant.

[bizil]

Dude Iverson was a negative defender. He weighed 165 lbs soaking wet and got picked on. And he shot like shit in the playoffs even in the mid 2000s when they let everybody score. Bad offense and bad defense. He was a negative player but an exciting player that brought in MONEY. That's it.

BUT in terms of team defense, passing, lanes, etc. AI was a VERY disruptive defender. And Miller wasn't a good enough of a man to man defender to SUPERCEDE the things AI did well. Even though Miller could defend BIGGER guards better, AI could defend small quick guards better. AND in terms of team defense-passing lane disruptive shit, AI HANDS DOWN is better than Reggie. Led the league in steals three times.

[tpols]

The Sixers made the Finals once and they made it because of their defense. Their defense was elite and much better rank than their offense. Go look up what ray Allen shot in the 2001 series than look at what Iverson shot. Ray blew him away.

[tpols]

And literally 100% of the players you think were great and had a great IQ would read that...call you a moron...and you genuinely wouldn’t see what it meant.

Why do you think everybody is laughing at his number 4 rank in this thread?

[bizil]

The Sixers made the Finals once and they made it because of their defense. Their defense was elite and much better rank than their offense. Go look up what ray Allen shot in the 2001 series than look at what Iverson shot. Ray blew him away.

BUT that squad needed AI's offensive ability to MAKE ENOUGH PLAYS to complement that defense. The fact the Bucks (who had more talent FOR SURE) couldn't beat them says it all! AI WILLED that Sixers team. This wasn't like the 2004 Pistons where u had three very good scorers AND four All Star types in general BACKED by a great defense. AI was playing with a BUNCH of great defenders who were AVERAGE scorers at best. Those guys the Sixers had were WAY MORE EXPENDABLE than AI! Only a VERY VERY SMALL amount of perimeter players could have done what AI did with that Sixers team.

You would have to be a great scorer AND passer for your position. Miller DOESN'T qualify. If you replaced Miller with AI on that team, that squad DOESN'T make the Finals! Around the early 2000s era, only Kobe and T Mac type guys could have done that. Maybe a Vince or Ray. Just think Kobe and T Mac (like AI) could assume PG or primary dimedropper duties more effectively than Vince or Ray. Thus putting MORE PRESSURE on the defense!

[tpols]

Reggie literally led a team to the Finals the very year before that was no more untalented than Iversons. This whole "oh he willed them!" is bullshit... Its the media narrative that sold big time headlines. Plus that bucks series was rigged everybody knows that. They wanted David vs Goliath Finals PPV. People literally went to prison in the mid 2000s for rigging games in years preceding.

And Reggie put plenty of pressure on the defense with his off ball screen running and spacing. Tons of decoy action that opened things up for his teammates.

[Kblaze8855]

Why do you think everybody is laughing at his number 4 rank in this thread?

I care less about where ISH posters rank AI than I care where they rank Chipotle for best fast food burrito. A lot less actually. You giving me a great burrito place to try might enhance my life. You have literally never posted anything about basketball I didn’t already know unless it was some random advanced stat that had no practical application.

Id take your advice on a burrito and a beer. I don’t give your basketball opinions any more weight than those of a spider monkey. It does help me kill time on the road though. I’m headed to Tampa by way of Jacksonville at the moment. Got this girl driving and she didn’t wanna do it straight through....and there is nothing in west Florida above Tampa. On the East there’s decent places to stop.

Im paying for an extra night in a likely shitty Doubletree just to get out of driving myself. And I’m not flying with the current mask rules so here I am. Killing time with you. And I’m generally ok with you.

I just don’t value your basketball opinions much now that you have morphed into full nerd. Not that there’s anything wrong with nerds either. I just don’t care what they think about things they barely even remember from middle school.

I might value your nerd ass opinion on like....Ja Morant. Maybe. You’re me talking to my uncle about Doctor J. Yea I saw doctor J....and I absolutely have more numbers than he does....but relatively speaking? I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about far as peak Doc....and I should shut my mouth when grown folks is talking. But that’s a lesson your generation struggles with.

I accepted it at a much younger age than I think you are.

Do you though. I’ll let you be for now. Might check in later...

[KissMySwag]

Kblaze would you arrange that top ten list any differently? If so what would it be? I’d also like to know where you would rank tmac and especially Vince after those ten. I don’t disagree with the list just Vince is likely my favorite player of all time, tmac one of my top 10 and I respect your opinion more than most and I’m intrigued to know where they stand in your mind.

[WhiteKyrie]

1) Jordan
2) Kobe
3) West
4) Wade
5) Harden

[Smoke117]

Tfools taking L after L...as per usual. The stupidity that comes out of your mouth is legendary. :oldlol:

[999Guy]

Tfools taking L after L...as per usual. The stupidity that comes out of your mouth is legendary. :oldlol:

Nah he had very good moment with the appeal to authority fallacy he recognized.


I didn’t even know that existed. But funnily enough I’ve seen Tpols do the same exact thing. :oldlol: But he’s making sense ITT.

Saying Iverson was a negative is wrong. AI was actually a good defender too. Just not beastly.

His offense just isn’t as good as Reggie’s. It’s just not. Reggie and AI are on the two most extremes ends of the scoring effectiveness vs statistical output spectrum.

AI is like, the #1 not as good as his raw stats guy, maybe ever.

Super high minutes and no efficiency to speak of.

Reggie is a guy who, if defended with the attention of a normal shooter, would’ve put up much better stats. But the stats that he didn’t get, went to teammates and that is value that matters, wins games, trashes defensive game plans, stresses defenders out, but will underrate Reggie until now, we see Korver and Curry blow up nerd metrics with being hell off-ball and deadly as shooters. Reggie is closer to Curry than Korver though.

[Smoke117]

Nah he had very good moment with the appeal to authority fallacy he recognized.


I didn’t even know that existed. But funnily enough I’ve seen Tpols do the same exact thing. :oldlol: But he’s making sense ITT.

Saying Iverson was a negative is wrong. AI was actually a good defender too. Just not beastly.

His offense just isn’t as good as Reggie’s. It’s just not. Reggie and AI are on the two most extremes ends of the scoring effectiveness vs statistical output spectrum.

AI is like, the #1 not as good as his raw stats guy, maybe ever.

Super high minutes and no efficiency to speak of.

Reggie is a guy who, if defended with the attention of a normal shooter, would’ve put up much better stats. But the stats that he didn’t get, went to teammates and that is value that matters, wins games, trashes defensive game plans, stresses defenders out, but will underrate Reggie until now, we see Korver and Curry blow up nerd metrics with being hell off-ball and deadly as shooters. Reggie is closer to Curry than Korver though.

lol Iverson was a terrible defensive player.

[kawhileonard2]

Drexler should be ahead of Harden for sure.

[tpols]

Tfools taking L after L...as per usual. The stupidity that comes out of your mouth is legendary. :oldlol:

Who you taking smokey?

Prime Ray Allen or Allen Iverson?

As usual great minds think alike. I got you bro.

[Smoke117]

Who you taking smokey?

Prime Ray Allen or Allen Iverson?

As usual great minds think alike. I got you bro.

2001 decided that. Ray Allen was vastly superior in their match up.

[tpols]

2001 decided that. Ray Allen was vastly superior in their match up.

You're telling me bro.

123 ORTG vs 97 ORTG. Same volume pretty much... Iverson just misses way more shots. He shoots 34% and wins and is the hero lmao.

So the numbers do tell the truth. And I remember it as a kid. Mutumbo and that elite Larry Brown defense were why they were winning if they won.

[Smoke117]

You're telling me bro.

123 ORTG vs 97 ORTG. Same volume pretty much... Iverson just misses way more shots. He shoots 34% and wins and is the hero lmao.

So the numbers do tell the truth. And I remember it as a kid. Mutumbo and that elite Larry Brown defense were why they were winning if they won.

Bucks got screwed out of that series because the league wanted Iverson and the Sixers in the finals. That massively overrated **** averaged 31 shot attempts to 30.5ppg vs the Bucks lol. He was garbage in that series.

[Gohan]

Never taking any opinions series if they take ray over iverson. Might as well call iverson a top 5 player ever. It’s just about as right. Btw white mans mind think almost alike. Y’all two family’s go steal some land or something

[Smoke117]

Never taking any opinions series if they take ray over iverson. Might as well call iverson a top 5 player ever. It’s just about as right. Btw white mans mind think almost alike. Y’all two family’s go steal some land or something

Lol You think Iverson is a top 10 player of all time...your opinion is about as worthless as it gets.

[dankok8]

The Iceman is very underrated these days... I think I'd have him over Ray Ray and Reggie who were mostly sharpshooters. Gervin was way more versatile as a scorer. His athleticism is sometime forgotten about as well. He is the proto-Durant.

My list just off the top of my head:

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden
6. Iverson
7. Drexler
8. Gervin
9. Allen
10. Miller

[BigShotBob]

Iverson being higher than West is the real blasphemy here.

[Smoke117]

The Iceman is very underrated these days... I think I'd have him over Ray Ray and Reggie who were mostly sharpshooters. Gervin was way more versatile as a scorer. His athleticism is sometime forgotten about as well. He is the proto-Durant.

My list just off the top of my head:

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden
6. Iverson
7. Drexler
8. Gervin
9. Allen
10. Miller

What's the argument for Iverson over Drexler? Because I don't see it. Frankly, I don't think he's top 10 at all, period.

[dankok8]

What's the argument for Iverson over Drexler? Because I don't see it. Frankly, I don't think he's top 10 at all, period.

Iverson over West or Harden is very hard to sell. Over Drexler I can see a case. Iverson was a really good scorer playing with little help. Being 2-3% below league average in TS% can be ok when you play with guys who can't score period. Anyways it's not clearcut. I can see Drexler over AI for sure. Gervin as well. Ray and Reggie not really. Those guys were more efficient but AI is a much better floor raiser. And it's not like Allen or Miller did anything else that well outside of scoring. Besides AI had historically low turnover rates which makes up for lower shooting efficiency.

[ShawkFactory]

These all-time lists are always a little wild. Until McGrady started to really succumb to his back shit, there was no one in the world who thought that Ray Allen was better. That's like from 2000-2007.

There were some years where they were just completely different tiers as players. Most of those years actually.

[Smoke117]

Iverson over West or Harden is very hard to sell. Over Drexler I can see a case. Iverson was a really good scorer playing with little help. Being 2-3% below league average in TS% can be ok when you play with guys who can't score period. Anyways it's not clearcut. I can see Drexler over AI for sure. Gervin as well. Ray and Reggie not really. Those guys were more efficient but AI is a much better floor raiser. And it's not like Allen or Miller did anything else that well outside of scoring. Besides AI had historically low turnover rates which makes up for lower shooting efficiency.

Yeah that means a lot less when Iverson ran off guys like Stackhouse and Larry Hughes because he wanted to chuck non stop. People always going on about lack of offensive help, but that was because Iverson ran the help off the team so he could chuck up 25+ shots a game. Iverson isn't anything special as a floor raiser. Drexler was definitely a more impactful player than Iverson was in his prime and peak. Same for Ray Allen.

[Smoke117]

These all-time lists are always a little wild. Until McGrady started to really succumb to his back shit, there was no one in the world who thought that Ray Allen was better. That's like from 2000-2007.

There were some years where they were just completely different tiers as players. Most of those years actually.

I always liked Tracy Mcgrady's all around game, but he was nothing special as a scorer. He was pretty much the definition of a high volume scorer who had to chuck up a ton of shots to get his points. Ray Allen was far more efficient. Ray should have been shooting more in general when he was on the Bucks. He was a guy who could have been taking 20 shots a game and putting up 28ppg on good efficiency if he had wanted to be.

[ShawkFactory]

I always liked Tracy Mcgrady's all around game, but he was nothing special as a scorer. He was pretty much the definition of a high volume scorer who had to chuck up a ton of shots to get his points. Ray Allen was far more efficient. Ray should have been shooting more in general when he was on the Bucks. He was a guy who could have been taking 20 shots a game and putting up 28ppg on good efficiency if he had wanted to be.

He was certainly a high volume guy, but his offensive game was so well rounded. He could shoot, slash, finish, pass, he was creative. Plus he was the type who would make a couple ridiculous plays or go on a Kobe-like run that would completely demoralize an opponent. There was no way you could defend him when he was hitting.

I feel like Ray's shot selection was a huge strength. When he went to Seattle and started taking more shots (because he had to) his efficiency dipped. I don't think he'd be a capable high volume scorer. Just wasn't as versatile.

[Smoke117]

He was certainly a high volume guy, but his offensive game was so well rounded. He could shoot, slash, finish, pass, he was creative. Plus he was the type who would make a couple ridiculous plays or go on a Kobe-like run that would completely demoralize an opponent. There was no way you could defend him when he was hitting.

I feel like Ray's shot selection was a huge strength. When he went to Seattle and started taking more shots (because he had to) his efficiency dipped. I don't think he'd be a capable high volume scorer. Just wasn't as versatile.

Ray was a much more well rounded scorer than people give him credit for. People just remember the Celtics and beyond Ray Allen when he was already 33+. He did it all on the Bucks and Sonics.

[RRR3]

I always liked Tracy Mcgrady's all around game, but he was nothing special as a scorer. He was pretty much the definition of a high volume scorer who had to chuck up a ton of shots to get his points. Ray Allen was far more efficient. Ray should have been shooting more in general when he was on the Bucks. He was a guy who could have been taking 20 shots a game and putting up 28ppg on good efficiency if he had wanted to be.
McGrady wasn’t inefficient until injuries messed him up. 01-04 he was above league average TS% every year. Allen certainly never reached 03 McGrady level.

[Smoke117]

McGrady wasn’t inefficient until injuries messed him up. 01-04 he was above league average TS% every year. Allen certainly never reached 03 McGrady level.

I don't give a shit about the league average. Stars are supposed to be stars...better than the league average. The only season Mcgrady ever had that was half decently efficient was that 03 season and even then it wasn't anything special... .560%ts. Other than that he was always chucking like 20 shots to get 24ppg or something which is meh.

[Gohan]

Lmao at efficiency next we’ll be praising total points over ppg(barring a good sample size)

[RRR3]

I don't give a shit about the league average. Stars are supposed to be stars...better than the league average. The only season Mcgrady ever had that was half decently efficient was that 03 season and even then it wasn't anything special... .560%ts. Other than that he was always chucking like 20 shots to get 24ppg or something which is meh.
He was better than league average I just said that. Considering volume that’s great. You really think someone like Brandon Ingram is a better scorer than McGrady? Stop comparing efficiency in a league where the average TS% is 57.2% to one in which it was 6% lower.

McGrady’s 56.2 TS% in 03 is actually incredibly impressive. The league average was 51.9%, he was quite a bit above league average and he led the league in scoring. There has never been an NBA before the last few years in which 56.2% wasn’t a damn good TS%

[Smoke117]

Lmao at efficiency next we’ll be praising total points over ppg(barring a good sample size)

No surprise a retard that thinks Iverson is a top 10 player of all time doesn't care for efficiency.

[Smoke117]

He was better than league average I just said that. Considering volume that’s great. You really think someone like Brandon Ingram is a better scorer than McGrady? Stop comparing efficiency in a league where the average TS% is 57.2% to one in which it was 6% lower.

McGrady’s 56.2 TS% in 03 is actually incredibly impressive. The league average was 51.9%, he was quite a bit above league average and he led the league in scoring. There has never been an NBA before the last few years in which 56.2% wasn’t a damn good TS%

Which is what makes Ray Allen so impressive in 2001 during that era. Put up a .610%ts while leading the league in offensive win shares. And he was even BETTER in the playoffs. League of course screwed the bucks over, though.

[RRR3]

Which is what makes Ray Allen so impressive in 2001 during that era. Put up a .610%ts while leading the league in offensive win shares. And he was even BETTER in the playoffs. League of course screwed the bucks over, though.
Kind of an outlier though considering besides his 59.8 TS% in 02 he never had a TS% over 57% until 2006 when offense spiked. Obviously 57.0% was still impressive as **** back then but it’s actually below league average now (which is absurd. Defense should not be this neutered)

[Smoke117]

Kind of an outlier though considering besides his 59.8 TS% in 02 he never had a TS% over 57% until 2006 when offense spiked. Obviously 57.0% was still impressive as **** back then but it’s actually below league average now (which is absurd. Defense should not be this neutered)

As I said before, they need to bring back hand checking. Players have too much freedom of movement on the perimeter now.

[RRR3]

As I said before, they need to bring back hand checking. Players have too much freedom of movement on the perimeter now.
Yeah If Ray Allen’s 2001 TS% is adjusted to 2021 it would be 66.4% :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Lmao at efficiency next we’ll be praising total points over ppg(barring a good sample size)

Jesus :lol

[bizil]

GOAT status AND peak-prime status is two different things. I took Iverson over Drexler BECAUSE his career resume is MORE decorated. Which also includes a league MVP, four scoring titles, being a true face of the league, being one of the most dominant little men of all time, etc. Peak-prime wise, Drexler FOR SURE has the edge. And I suppose u could have Clyde over AI on a GOAT list. BUT AI ALSO has a DAMN GOOD CASE to be over Drexler as well.

Plus for me, the top 5 SG's are MJ, Mamba, West, Wade, and Harden. After that, you could rank guys a number of ways. And Ray BEFORE BOSTON was a very complete offensive player. I don't think people REALIZE how he changed the perception of a great pure shooter-scorer types. Guys like Bird, Reggie, Price, etc. Ray added athletic ability and bounce PURE SHOOTER TYPES didn't have before. Plus he could swing to the PG spot as well if needed. Even in today's game, how many pure shooter-scorer type guys are as athletic as young Ray Allen??? KD is the only one!

[dankok8]

Yeah that means a lot less when Iverson ran off guys like Stackhouse and Larry Hughes because he wanted to chuck non stop. People always going on about lack of offensive help, but that was because Iverson ran the help off the team so he could chuck up 25+ shots a game. Iverson isn't anything special as a floor raiser. Drexler was definitely a more impactful player than Iverson was in his prime and peak. Same for Ray Allen.

I don't know... AI's run carrying that team to the Finals in 2001 was very impressive. I doubt that team could crack 80 points a game without him scoring and also distributing. They not only had no scorers but no playmakers either. And again, AI's turnover % is very very low which makes up for poor efficiency. He averaged just 2.9 topg in the 2001 playoffs playing 46.5 minutes per game. That is pretty great. A turnover is worse than a missed shot.

[999Guy]

I’d like to view it like this as far as AI vs Reggie;

Who could emulate who better? Reggie or AI?


Could you ask AI to do 22/3/3 on 62 TS% and get better results than asking Reggie to do 27/4/3/2 on 50 TS%?

And I’m really looking at this offensively. Reggie’s a better defender on the whole, probably.

AI played his best defense(decent) from 01-04 according to impact metrics. Terrible before and after that.


Iverson’s level of play was easier and less effective. Volume chucking isn’t gonna be hard to do for a player of Reggie’s caliber.


Actually being good, maybe GOAT ish at making shots is way rarer and more valuable.

[mehyaM24]

i would take drexler & miller > iverson. both were more efficient & better defensively. both led their teams to the finals just like iverson, but were the main catalysts. philadelphia's strength otoh was their defense. when you really think about it, reggie was a pioneer for today's game. in the 90s he was elite off the ball and relied a lot on screens for threes, which is all they do now. its no wonder he was difficult to guard in the playoffs. nobody really played that way with everything being inside-out.