Greatest Peaks Series - Anyone Missing?

[dankok8]

As most of you know there is a really good Greatest Peaks Series going on right now created by Ben Taylor of Thinking Basketball and it's almost finished. It analyzes the greatest players ever at their peak since the NBA-ABA merger in 1976. Other than pre-merger guys who Ben couldn't analyze because there isn't enough footage (namely Wilt, Russell, Oscar, and West), which other players have a case to be included?

These are the 14 players he has profiled:

Bill Walton
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Stephen Curry (coming next week)

Is there any player who peaked since the merger you feel is better than one or more of these guys? Who should have been included...

[Charlie Sheen]

Wade was a truly special player at his peak. Elite scorer with defensive impact that rivals a dominant big.

James Harden. Polarizing. Fans either like the guy or hate the guy. There's really no middle ground. The numbers he puts up are historic though.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi Leonard is missing and I'll tell you why in a minute. First, how the hell did some of these guys make the list ahead of Kawhi?

Curry - his peak ended with a terrible finals performance in 2016 and choking away a 3-1 finals lead

Durant - he was a bitch during his entire thunder run and then ran to a 73 win championship warriors team

Garnett - you must be smoking dust. This 6"11 Scottie Pippen could never lace Kawhi's boots in a million years. Playoff scoring always took a dramatic decline in efficiency, then he played with two of the best scorers in his generation (pierce, allen) and was a 3rd wheel scoring option.

[mehyaM24]

i would also take kawhi over some of those players. 2019 kawhi > david robinson, garnett & probably durant.

durant might be the GOAT modern scorer however people don't really count his rings with golden state. you could replace him with any of those guys on that list and they'd all have rings. i don't know when peak kd was. he could be peaking now, but he hasn't separated himself from the pack.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Look for the checkpoints (*) Kawhi Leonard's case in 2019:

* Number one on PPG\win share playoff carry jobs since 2000.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?490647-2000-present-biggest-playoff-carry-jobs-(PPG-Win-Share-48)

* 1 of 2 players since 1994 to win a finals MVP on a roster without any players who were ever drafted in top 5 or top 5 MVP candidates

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?490019-Finals-MVPS-with-no-top-5-draft-picks-or-top-5-MVP-candidate-(Hakeem-and-Kawhi)

* The greatest scoring season by total points and efficiency with 732 points on 62% TS

* Only game 7 buzzer beater in NBA history

* In the closeout games of rounds 2, 3, 4, had an average of 38% usage

* Against the best big man of his era in Giannis\Embiid, averaged 4 offensive rebounds in the series clinching games

* Winning a championship with a rookie head coach and a franchise that has never been to the finals

* eliminated 4 MVPS between 2 players in Curry\Giannis and also the leading MVP this season in Embiid

* losing in 2nd round series 1-2 and 3rd round series 0-2

* #1 offensive rating and #1 defensive rating for any starter on team

[Prometheus]

Moses Malone? Charles Barkley?

[dankok8]

My list of players who I wish he made videos for:

Julius Erving
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Kawhi Leonard
James Harden

Wade is the one guy who really should have made it in IMO. I think he's the best of these players. I don't want to say by a big margin but peak Wade really had everything. Elite scoring, very good playmaking, excellent defense... and got even better in the playoffs.

[Gudo]

Not a fan, but giannis?

[Mask the Embiid]

As most of you know there is a really good Greatest Peaks Series going on right now created by Ben Taylor of Thinking Basketball and it's almost finished. It analyzes the greatest players ever at their peak since the NBA-ABA merger in 1976. Other than pre-merger guys who Ben couldn't analyze because there isn't enough footage (namely Wilt, Russell, Oscar, and West), which other players have a case to be included?

These are the 14 players he has profiled:

Bill Walton
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Stephen Curry (coming next week)

Is there any player who peaked since the merger you feel is better than one or more of these guys? Who should have been included...

Im not sure Ben, maybe Joel Embiid?.....love the channel btw

[Micku]

My list of players who I wish he made videos for:

Julius Erving
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Kawhi Leonard
James Harden

Wade is the one guy who really should have made it in IMO. I think he's the best of these players. I don't want to say by a big margin but peak Wade really had everything. Elite scoring, very good playmaking, excellent defense... and got even better in the playoffs.

Yeah, I would love to see one of Wade. I felt like his peak was really great.

Barkley too.

All of those players might deserve a video. And Giannis

[Manny98]

08-09 Chris Paul

No Dirk either who's on the same level as KG

[AussieSteve]

Moses was a back to back MVP, as well as an FMVP and All-D 1st team in the early 80s.

Barkley was MVP twice in a league that included peak Jordan. He lost 3 times in 4 years to Jordan in the playoffs, which changes how history will views him, but his peak on the offensive end was up there with the GOATS

These are the 2 glaring omissions for me

[999Guy]

Wade was a truly special player at his peak. Elite scorer with defensive impact that rivals a dominant big.

James Harden. Polarizing. Fans either like the guy or hate the guy. There's really no middle ground. The numbers he puts up are historic though.

What dominant big? Nikola Jokic?

Wade was a gambler on and off ball. When he lost athleticism and had to play smarter next to LeBron he was a better defender.

[dankok8]

One thing I notice is Ben is high on the regular season than most when making these lists and that's because of sample size. He says that especially when discussing peaks the playoff samples are typically way too small. And he knows from his analysis. He says that below about 60 games any boxscore data is very noisy. And no player apart from a handful played close to 60 playoff games in their so called peaks. Regular season peak gives 80-240 games of data which is a much bigger sample.

I mean that explains why a player like Wade would be excluded. His postseason numbers in 2009 and 2010 are astronomical but he played a total of 12 playoff games so those are largely disregarded in Ben's analysis. His regular season numbers and impact metrics while solid, weren't that impressive when comparing to all-time greats. At the end I just can't agree with Ben's approach despite its scientific rigor. Yes if you take the playoff numbers you're at the mercy of some variance but it seems wrong to exclude a guy like Wade who is a much better playoff player than someone like David Robinson... when it really counts. Ditto for Kawhi who has "weak MVP" level regular seasons according to Ben (agreeable considering his load management) but then plays like an all-time great in the playoffs. Kawhi probably deserves to be in too. At the very least a 50:50 split between the regular season and playoffs is reasonable. And IMO it's ok to use other playoff runs as an indicator. For instance given Wade's playoff performance in 2005 (when healthy), 2006 and 2011 (with Lebron) it's safe to say that his 2009 and 2010 playoff runs are probably not an outlier.

[Dr Hawk]

Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki

[iamgine]

I wish he'd include Steve Nash. Would love to see his offensive impact.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Dirk, Wade, CP3, Dr. J, Barkley, Ewing, Moses

that's it