View Full Version : KD, Harden, & Kyrie get 25 ppg, so what's the excuse for lebron destroying Love/Bosh
3ball
03-13-2021, 06:01 PM
Lebron simply lacks the elite jumpshooting skill of Harden, KD, or Kyrie, so he can't fit together with a bunch of stars like they can - he can't seamlessly slide between ball-handler and "shooter" roles like they can because he lacks their elite jumpshooting skill.
The Nets have a 119 ortg, which is #1 all-time by a jaw-dropping margin.. Otoh, Lebron has zero #1 offenses in 2 decades because he craters the 3rd star every time
Ultimately, guys with elite jumpshooting skill can have #1 offenses (kd, harden, curry, nash, etc) because the 3rd star isn't marginalized - see the 17' Warriors where Klay still averaged 21 ppg, or this year's Nets where everyone is over 25 ppg.
This poster not being permabanned is a black mark on ISH.
3ball
03-13-2021, 06:07 PM
This poster not being permabanned is a black mark on ISH.
It's a perfectly valid point
You guys always say that Bosh/Love went from 1st to 3rd option, so their decline was expected
But Klay averaged 22 for the Warriors as 3rd option, and Harden is getting 25
So lebron's weaker jumpshooting skill and redundant ball-dominance as a big man ruins chemistry compared to KGoat, who has #1 offenses at every stop since leaving westbrook (mini lebron)
Furthermore, you guys always say that guys like Worthy wouldn't average 25 alongside Jordan because "there aren't enough shots"... Wrong again!!... Stars always played to capacity next to MJ
warriorfan
03-13-2021, 06:48 PM
Simple answer. Nets arnt playing bran ball.
light
03-13-2021, 06:53 PM
lol. Bosh and Love are champions and went to the finals a combined 8 consecutive times.
Having the no. 1 ranked offense or players having very specific ppg averages is not important. The Nets will never have the kind of success that LeBron had with Love and Bosh.
Hey Yo
03-13-2021, 06:54 PM
Do KD, Kyrie and Harden only play when all 3 are on the floor?
None if them score or get FTA without the other 2 on the floor?
SATAN
03-13-2021, 07:00 PM
This poster not being permabanned is a black mark on ISH.
Absolutely.
AussieSteve
03-13-2021, 07:31 PM
Can't believe I'm replying to this trash thread, but what are KD, Kyrie and Harden's averages when all three are playing?
Edit: it's only happened 6 times... Please formally apologise to ish for making yet another trash thread.
HBK_Kliq_2
03-13-2021, 07:33 PM
They have only played like 5 games together. Clippers still have the greatest western conference offensive rating in NBA history and that's more impressive. Kawhi and George finally have synergy as well. We will see if Irving/Harden/Durant can co exist, it hasn't been proven yet.
Nets have the 119 offensive rating because Irving and Durant or Irving and harden as a duo have played well. All 3 mixed together for a big enough sample size hasn't happened yet. Also steve Nash and D'antoni are their coaches. We will see if it works in playoffs.
SouBeachTalents
03-13-2021, 07:44 PM
Can't believe I'm replying to this trash thread, but what are KD, Kyrie and Harden's averages when all three are playing?
Edit: it's only happened 6 times... Please formally apologise to ish for making yet another trash thread.
You have their scoring numbers for when all 3 play together? I'm too lazy to look that shit up myself :lol I remember Harden was definitely more of a facilitator, sometimes even taking half the number of shots that Kyrie did
dankok8
03-13-2021, 09:20 PM
To be fair today's NBA is more offensively minded. I think all of Lebron's big 3's would put up noticeably better stats in 2021 than they did in 20xx...
HBK_Kliq_2
03-13-2021, 09:57 PM
You have their scoring numbers for when all 3 play together? I'm too lazy to look that shit up myself :lol I remember Harden was definitely more of a facilitator, sometimes even taking half the number of shots that Kyrie did
5-2 record
186 minutes together: 122 offensive rating
114 defensive rating
NBA.com numbers. Defense is awful but offense is goat level. Still only 7 games.
SouBeachTalents
03-13-2021, 10:01 PM
5-2 record
186 minutes together: 122 offensive rating
114 defensive rating
NBA.com numbers. Defense is awful but offense is goat level. Still only 7 games.
You have the big 3's ppg in those 7 games too?
tpols
03-13-2021, 10:13 PM
To be fair today's NBA is more offensively minded. I think all of Lebron's big 3's would put up noticeably better stats in 2021 than they did in 20xx...
No it comes down to shooting and Harden's ability to seamlessly convert from Kobe to Magic. LeBron is a 28/8 guy. He can't morph to 20/12. His game is artificial... based off scoring on stiff arm drives. And then acting like he got hit. Harden has legit genius basketball intuition. Watching him dissect defenses is like watching Michael Angelo paint. He used to pull gay moves for cheap free throws. But that was because he didn't have the help. Kyrie alone allows him to be Magic. Durant? Forget it.
To be fair today's NBA is more offensively minded. I think all of Lebron's big 3's would put up noticeably better stats in 2021 than they did in 20xx...
Depends if d-wade or bosh didn't decline while they were still together.
Gohan
03-13-2021, 10:37 PM
Depends if d-wade or bosh didn't decline while they were still together.
Did they really decline or was that made to make lebron win more mvps. He should only have two
AirBonner
03-13-2021, 10:49 PM
Did they really decline or was that made to make lebron win more mvps. He should only have two
They missed the playoffs before LeBron and after LeBron meanwhile harden won an mvp and Kyrie is locked in
SpaceJam
03-13-2021, 10:53 PM
Nets when all of the big 3 play, pace at roughly 100
Harden - 20.4 ppg
Durant - 25.2 ppg
Irving - 26.2ppg
Cavs average pace roughly 94
Bron - 25.6 ppg
Kyrie - 22.4 ppg
Love - 17.0 ppg
Heat average pace roughly 90
Bron - 26.9 ppg
Wade - 22.2 ppg
Bosh - 17.3 ppg
Hardon gone from 34ppg to 20ppg under Durant ball :eek:
They missed the playoffs before LeBron and after LeBron meanwhile harden won an mvp and Kyrie is locked in
The heat did make the playoffs in 2010. They had 47 wins in the rs when they did so.
Did they really decline or was that made to make lebron win more mvps. He should only have two
Beats me, gohan but i personally don't care which of the two. What's disappointing tho is that they didn't end up to be a dynasty when they should have been.
Mr. Woke
03-13-2021, 11:19 PM
LeBron never "destroyed" Bosh or Love.
Bosh and Love were simply not as good as some people made them out to be.
999Guy
03-13-2021, 11:36 PM
Nets when all of the big 3 play, pace at roughly 100
Harden - 20.4 ppg
Durant - 25.2 ppg
Irving - 26.2ppg
Cavs average pace roughly 94
Bron - 25.6 ppg
Kyrie - 22.4 ppg
Love - 17.0 ppg
Heat average pace roughly 90
Bron - 26.9 ppg
Wade - 22.2 ppg
Bosh - 17.3 ppg
Hardon gone from 34ppg to 20ppg under Durant ball :eek:
DAMN. I was gonna respond basically saying this but it’s worse than I thought.
And Kyrie literally stops passing ever when they’re all in the lineup. He becomes an amazing chucker.
None of these guys are playing their best games next to each other. Harden’s easily at his best as a volume creator.
clutchinho
03-14-2021, 12:15 AM
Simple answer. Nets arnt playing bran ball.
End thread.
Bran ball sucks. You can get a top offense out of it when you have 1st option type guys as the 2nd and 3rd guys plus top level shooting.
Surround bran ball with average shooters/players and it's bottom 5 of the league offense type stuff
clutchinho
03-14-2021, 12:18 AM
No it comes down to shooting and Harden's ability to seamlessly convert from Kobe to Magic. LeBron is a 28/8 guy. He can't morph to 20/12. His game is artificial... based off scoring on stiff arm drives. And then acting like he got hit. Harden has legit genius basketball intuition. Watching him dissect defenses is like watching Michael Angelo paint. He used to pull gay moves for cheap free throws. But that was because he didn't have the help. Kyrie alone allows him to be Magic. Durant? Forget it.
I think it's because harden is a lot smarter than Bran. He wishes he was a 6'9 hulk with bionic legs who just runs and pushes people out of the way for dunks and layups
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
03-14-2021, 12:24 AM
End thread.
Bran ball sucks. You can get a top offense out of it when you have 1st option type guys as the 2nd and 3rd guys plus top level shooting.
Surround bran ball with average shooters/players and it's bottom 5 of the league offense type stuff
That's a myth repeated by goofy haters. Before joining Miami, Lebron's Cavs had two top 5 offenses in 09 and 10.
And his 2nd option was literally Mo Williams.
Point being is that Lebron turns chicken shit into chicken salad. And when surrounded with top flight talent, his teams are in the hunt.
SpaceJam
03-15-2021, 04:49 AM
Nets when all of the big 3 play, pace at roughly 100
Harden - 20.4 ppg
Durant - 25.2 ppg
Irving - 26.2ppg
Cavs average pace roughly 94
Bron - 25.6 ppg
Kyrie - 22.4 ppg
Love - 17.0 ppg
Heat average pace roughly 90
Bron - 26.9 ppg
Wade - 22.2 ppg
Bosh - 17.3 ppg
Hardon gone from 34ppg to 20ppg under Durant ball :eek:
3ball? This is also without factoring it's apparently the easiest era to score in
k0kakw0rld
03-15-2021, 04:55 AM
It's a perfectly valid point
You guys always say that Bosh/Love went from 1st to 3rd option, so their decline was expected
But Klay averaged 22 for the Warriors as 3rd option, and Harden is getting 25
So lebron's weaker jumpshooting skill and redundant ball-dominance as a big man ruins chemistry compared to KGoat, who has #1 offenses at every stop since leaving westbrook (mini lebron)
Furthermore, you guys always say that guys like Worthy wouldn't average 25 alongside Jordan because "there aren't enough shots"... Wrong again!!... Stars always played to capacity next to MJ
That's why Pippen only managed to average 21 ppg at best?
TheGoatest
03-15-2021, 05:52 AM
Not one,
not two,
not three,
not four,
not five,
not six,
but seven different Bulls players averaged career highs in ppg during the 1993-94 season. From all-time greats to role players and everything in-between. Must've been something special about that exact season for the Bulls. Anyone know what?
Why did Mo Williams become an all-star as soon as he started playing with the Cavs?
Why did Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong suddenly both become all-stars in 1993-94?
Anyone know the answers to these questions?
clipps
03-15-2021, 06:11 AM
LeBron never "destroyed" Bosh or Love.
Bosh and Love were simply not as good as some people made them out to be.
I bet your Mom was injecting heroin while pregnant with you.
TheGoatest
03-15-2021, 06:21 AM
LeBron never "destroyed" Bosh or Love.
Bosh and Love were simply not as good as some people made them out to be.
What are you talking about? The unanimous top 10 player of all time Chris Bosh is clearly in the Magic Johnson-Larry Bird tier, as this viral LeBron hater photoshop from 2010 implies:
https://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/jordan-bird-and-magic.jpg
:oldlol:
3ba11
11-21-2021, 02:43 AM
.
Thread Cliffs
Only Lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance turns star teammates into spot-up shooters, which is why Bosh/Love couldn't average 20 or dominate when needed like other 3rd options (Klay, Manu, Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Worthy, etc).. Since Lebron destroys other stars, his teams don't reach their ceiling and always need more help.. It's pathetic.
FultzNationRISE
07-01-2022, 12:59 AM
Lebron simply lacks the elite jumpshooting skill of Harden, KD, or Kyrie, so he can't fit together with a bunch of stars like they can - he can't seamlessly slide between ball-handler and "shooter" roles like they can because he lacks their elite jumpshooting skill.
The Nets have a 119 ortg, which is #1 all-time by a jaw-dropping margin.. Otoh, Lebron has zero #1 offenses in 2 decades because he craters the 3rd star every time
Ultimately, guys with elite jumpshooting skill can have #1 offenses (kd, harden, curry, nash, etc) because the 3rd star isn't marginalized - see the 17' Warriors where Klay still averaged 21 ppg, or this year's Nets where everyone is over 25 ppg.
:lol
Johnny32
07-01-2022, 01:11 AM
the "excuse" is...they won championships. unlike the 25 ppg trio.
3ba11
07-01-2022, 01:22 AM
the "excuse" is...they won championships. unlike the 25 ppg trio.
What do you think about Antawn Jamison averaging 21 ppg as the 3rd option alongside an off-ball pure shooter like Arenas, but only 15 ppg alongside Lebron as 2nd option?..
(Jamison was at 22/9 right before joining Lebron)
Ultimately, the only player type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron are elite shooters like Kyrie or role players/bums..
Otherwise, massive swathes of players crater alongside him like spotty-shooting ball-handlers, aka Ingram, Hughes, Wade, Westbrook,.. or scoring forwards like Jamison, Love or Bosh
SATAN
07-01-2022, 01:24 AM
so he can't fit together with a bunch of stars like they can
https://c.tenor.com/L6axhNkj3LgAAAAC/tenor.gif
https://c.tenor.com/QByxlWeJYjAAAAAd/tenor.gif
Johnny32
07-01-2022, 01:27 AM
What do you think about Antawn Jamison averaging 21 ppg as the 3rd option (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2005.html) alongside an off-ball pure shooter like Arenas, but only 15 ppg alongside Lebron as 2nd option?..
(Jamison was at 22/9 right before joining Lebron)
Ultimately, the only player type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron are elite shooters like Kyrie or role players/bums..
Otherwise, massive swathes of players crater alongside him like spotty-shooting ball-handlers, aka Ingram, Hughes, Wade, Westbrook,.. or scoring forwards like Jamison, Love or Bosh
jaminson before the trade - 20.5 ppg on 17.1 fga, 45 fg%
jaminson after the trade - 15.8 ppg on 13.4 fga, 48 fg%
i think he shot the second highest fg% of his career with lebron. i also think you're a dumbass.
Snivelly getting brutally beat down as usual.
3ba11
07-01-2022, 01:33 AM
jaminson before the trade - 20.5 ppg on 17.1 fga, 45 fg%
jaminson after the trade - 15.8 ppg on 13.4 fga, 48 fg%
i think he shot the second highest fg% of his career with lebron. i also think you're a dumbass.
You didn't answer
What do you think about Antawn Jamison averaging 21 ppg as the 3rd (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2005.html) option alongside an off-ball pure shooter like Arenas, but only 15 ppg alongside Lebron as 2nd (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2010.html) option?..
Ultimately, the only player type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron are elite shooters like Kyrie or role players/bums..
Otherwise, massive swathes of players crater alongside him like spotty-shooting ball-handlers, aka Ingram, Hughes, Wade, Westbrook,.. or scoring forwards like Jamison, Love or Bosh
Ingram had a 1-year drop alongside Lebron across the board (3 pt percentage, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).. Basically, guys like Pippen would never develop alongside Lebron.. Pippen arrived as an 8 ppg rookie and wouldn't grow by leaps and bounds alongside Lebron like he did Jordan - again, see Ingram or Hughes
SouBeachTalents
07-01-2022, 01:34 AM
What do you think about Antawn Jamison averaging 21 ppg as the 3rd (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2005.html) option alongside an off-ball pure shooter like Arenas, but only 15 ppg alongside Lebron as 2nd option?..
(Jamison was at 22/9 right before joining Lebron)
Ultimately, the only player type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron are elite shooters like Kyrie or role players/bums..
Otherwise, massive swathes of players crater alongside him like spotty-shooting ball-handlers, aka Ingram, Hughes, Wade, Westbrook,.. or scoring forwards like Jamison, Love or Bosh
Ingram had a 1-year drop alongside Lebron across the board (3 pt percentage, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).. Basically, guys like Pippen would never develop alongside Lebron.. Pippen arrived as an 8 ppg rookie and wouldn't grow by leaps and bounds alongside Lebron like he did Jordan - again, see Ingram or Hughes
So he posts the link and STILL lies about the numbers :lol What a fakkit.
3ball rn:
https://coolmaterial.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/punch-to-nose.jpg
Dude gets brutalized in every thread.
SATAN
07-01-2022, 01:44 AM
Snivelly getting brutally beat down as usual.
Resorted to editing his posts. :oldlol:
Another L for 3IQ :facepalm
ShawkFactory
07-01-2022, 07:16 AM
Not gonna bother to read over this thread, but it HAS been mentioned that the 3 of them only played like 7 games together right?
3ba11
07-01-2022, 12:20 PM
Not gonna bother to read over this thread, but it HAS been mentioned that the 3 of them only played like 7 games together right?
I don't remember how many games they played but the Nets are just one example - tons of 3rd options averaged 20+
Jamison averaged 20 as third option in 2005, but only 15 as 2nd option with Lebron.
Tons of examples throughout history, except not for Lebron, despite having the most decorated 3rd options ever (Bosh was 11-time all-star)
this guy is mentally ill
He posts from a nursing home. The poor guy is senile and demented.
I don't remember
In fairness you never did.
3ba11
07-01-2022, 12:44 PM
In fairness you never did.
the Nets are just one example - tons of 3rd options averaged 20+
Jamison averaged 20 as third option in 2005, but only 15 as 2nd option with Lebron.
Tons of examples throughout history, except not for Lebron's all-star teammates
Lebron's big man ball-dominance simply lacks the teammate fits, teammate development and brand of ball to win organically - teammates are marginalized and the team has a lower ceiling than expected.
ShawkFactory
07-01-2022, 12:49 PM
I don't remember how many games they played but the Nets are just one example - tons of 3rd options averaged 20+
Jamison averaged 20 as third option in 2005, but only 15 as 2nd option with Lebron.
Tons of examples throughout history, except not for Lebron, despite having the most decorated 3rd options ever (Bosh was 11-time all-star)
Oh ok yea. They played 7.
Why do we think Jamison averaged 20 in 05 vs only 15 in 10? And why 14 in 04?
3ba11
07-01-2022, 12:53 PM
Oh ok yea. They played 7.
Why do we think Jamison averaged 20 in 05 vs only 15 in 10? And why 14 in 04?
Jamison averaged 22/9 right before joining Lebron, but then cratered to 15 ppg alongside Lebron's big man ball-dominance..
Scoring forwards like Jamison, Love, Kuzma or Bosh cratered alongside Lebron just like spotty-shooting ball-dominators did (Ingram, Hughes, Wade, Westbrook)..
Accordingly, elite shooters and role players/bums are the only player types that don't crater alongside Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance
1987_Lakers
07-01-2022, 12:54 PM
Whoever bumped this is a legend.
ShawkFactory
07-01-2022, 12:55 PM
Jamison averaged 22/9 right before joining Lebron, but then cratered to 15 ppg alongside Lebron's big man ball-dominance..
Scoring forwards like Jamison, Love, Kuzma or Bosh cratered alongside Lebron just like spotty-shooting ball-dominators did (Ingram, Hughes, Wade, Westbrook)..
Accordingly, elite shooters and role players/bums are the only player types that don't crater alongside Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance
Averaged 22/8 right before joining Dirk. Then cratered down to 15/6 (worse than with Lebron) the next year on the Mavs.
This has already been said before idk why I'm entertaining this again :lol
SouBeachTalents
07-01-2022, 12:59 PM
Jamison averaged 22/9 right before joining Lebron, but then cratered to 15 ppg alongside Lebron's big man ball-dominance..
Scoring forwards like Jamison, Love, Kuzma or Bosh cratered alongside Lebron just like spotty-shooting ball-dominators did (Ingram, Hughes, Wade, Westbrook)..
Accordingly, elite shooters and role players/bums are the only player types that don't crater alongside Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance
Do you even realize you argue like a complete basketball casual :lol A literal middle schooler could make your argument about Jamison. I really shouldn't have to explain to you there's a difference between having free reign on a 19 win team and taking fewer shots on a contending team. So this either means you're intentionally dishonest, or you're incapable of even elementary basketball analysis, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.
ShawkFactory
07-01-2022, 01:01 PM
Do you even realize you argue like a complete basketball casual :lol A literal middle schooler could make your argument about Jamison. I really shouldn't have to explain to you there's a difference between having free reign on a 19 win team and taking fewer shots on a contending team. So this either means you're intentionally dishonest, or you're incapable of even elementary basketball analysis, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.
It's obviously this one..
He's not actually this stupid he just likes the attention.
SouBeachTalents
07-01-2022, 01:02 PM
It's obviously this one..
He's not actually this stupid he just likes the attention.
That's some sad shit.
ShawkFactory
07-01-2022, 01:09 PM
That's some sad shit.
Yep :lol
I remember another argument a couple months ago where he literally argued in favor of numbers decreasing when someone is lower on the pecking order. I think he was on about Worthy and how he would have averaged 28 or whatever if he was the top dog. Argued then that efficiency is what matters. Complete 180 :lol
3ba11
07-01-2022, 01:10 PM
Do you even realize you argue like a complete basketball casual :lol A literal middle schooler could make your argument about Jamison. I really shouldn't have to explain to you there's a difference between having free reign on a 19 win team and taking fewer shots on a contending team. So this either means you're intentionally dishonest, or you're incapable of even elementary basketball analysis, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.
I was an avid watcher of the 2010 Cavs - Jamison was considered a massive acquisition and chosen over Amar'e.. The Cavs lacked scoring punch and Jamison was supposed to be the cure. The Cavs fully expected him to average 20+ like he did for the Wizards.
So you're just lying and making shit up about how 2nd scoring options on good teams are SUPPOSED to average 15 ppg?..... huh?.... That makes no sense.. you're desperate and can't accept that Lebron is infact a bum.
SouBeachTalents
07-01-2022, 01:12 PM
Yep :lol
I remember another argument a couple months ago where he literally argued in favor of numbers decreasing when someone is lower on the pecking order. I think he was on about Worthy and how he would have averaged 28 or whatever if he was the top dog. Argued then that efficiency is what matters. Complete 180 :lol
He's doing the EXACT same thing here too :lol Here he argues Bosh sucked with LeBron, yet in one of his other copy and paste spiels he says Bosh outplayed MVP Rose.
1987_Lakers
07-01-2022, 01:21 PM
I was an avid watcher of the 2010 Cavs -
No you weren't. I remember you saying you had to go back and see if the Lakers were favorites against the Mavs in 2011 when it was obvious to everyone watching at the time that they were.
SouBeachTalents
07-01-2022, 01:30 PM
I was an avid watcher of the 2010 Cavs - Jamison was considered a massive acquisition and chosen over Amar'e.. The Cavs lacked scoring punch and Jamison was supposed to be the cure. The Cavs fully expected him to average 20+ like he did for the Wizards.
So you're just lying and making shit up about how 2nd scoring options on good teams are SUPPOSED to average 15 ppg?..... huh?.... That makes no sense.. you're desperate and can't accept that Lebron is infact a bum.
That "massive" acquisition should've been able to lead the Cavs to a better record than the 9-47 he did in the games he played, including a record breaking 26 straight losses
And he was absolutely not chosen over Amare, the Cavs stupidly refused to include JJ Hickson in the deal and settled on Jamison instead. Absolutely nobody credible considered Jamison on Amare's level :lol
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