Even if Lebron is the most dominant player, does it matter?

[Walk on Water]

I’m not sure you understand what I’m asking. Let’s say you think Lebron is the most dominant player ever. Let’s say you think he carries teams and is unbelievable. That doesn’t change the fact that he lost against Dallas. It doesn’t change that he lost against San Antonio by a record margin, even with Chris Bosh and Wade. It doesn’t change the fact that even though he came back from 3-1 against Golden State, he still lost 3 out of 4 series. He lost 4-1 in 2017, even with Irving and Love.

So what I’m saying is how is it relevant whether he’s the goat, if he doesn’t get you the ultimate goal very efficiently? Now I know some of you are going to bring up Jordan losing in the playoffs or you might say based on my logic, Jordan isn’t the goat cuz he didn’t win the most.

But you get what I’m saying. Lebron has won 4 rings. That’s a lot compared to many players, but when you consider how long he’s played, the super teams he’s been on, and how many finals he has lost, the degree to which he’s lost, the fact 2 were game 7s, it doesn’t seem like the prettiest path. To me, winning 6 out of your first 13 seasons and going 6-0 in the Finals while playing baseball in the midst of everything is better than going 4-6 in your first 17 seasons and only playing one sport.

To me, Jordan had a perfect career. A clean 6 for 6, 10 scoring titles, no disappointments, and he played baseball too. He won more with less effort. He never lost. Even if Lebron is the most dominant player ever, what good is that if you can’t just go 6 for 6 and you need super teams?

[Axe]

https://www.baretreemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/22_wimpykid_face-tap.gif

[3ball]

Jordan was nearly beating dynasties in 89' and 90' with less help on both sides of the ball than when Lebron was swept by the 07' Spurs, or beaten by the 1-star underdog Magic, or even his 05' lottery team

Ultimately, Jordan had higher production rate than lebron, so he carried teams more, despite employing a superior team brand that went 6/6 in the Finals

[SATAN]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/09/2c/c7092c5ef6a14b9a5f9844bdfe4a4d85.jpg

[iamgine]

I’m not sure you understand what I’m asking. Let’s say you think Lebron is the most dominant player ever. Let’s say you think he carries teams and is unbelievable. That doesn’t change the fact that he lost against Dallas. It doesn’t change that he lost against San Antonio by a record margin, even with Chris Bosh and Wade. It doesn’t change the fact that even though he came back from 3-1 against Golden State, he still lost 3 out of 4 series. He lost 4-1 in 2017, even with Irving and Love.

So what I’m saying is how is it relevant whether he’s the goat, if he doesn’t get you the ultimate goal very efficiently? Now I know some of you are going to bring up Jordan losing in the playoffs or you might say based on my logic, Jordan isn’t the goat cuz he didn’t win the most.

But you get what I’m saying. Lebron has won 4 rings. That’s a lot compared to many players, but when you consider how long he’s played, the super teams he’s been on, and how many finals he has lost, the degree to which he’s lost, the fact 2 were game 7s, it doesn’t seem like the prettiest path. To me, winning 6 out of your first 13 seasons and going 6-0 in the Finals while playing baseball in the midst of everything is better than going 4-6 in your first 17 seasons and only playing one sport.

To me, Jordan had a perfect career. A clean 6 for 6, 10 scoring titles, no disappointments, and he played baseball too. He won more with less effort. He never lost. Even if Lebron is the most dominant player ever, what good is that if you can’t just go 6 for 6 and you need super teams?

Bill Russell exists, and he makes both of them looks like bum by that logic.

[3ball]

Bill Russell exists, and he makes both of them looks like bum by that logic.


All 40 MVP's in the modern era (3-pointer basketball) were dominant offensive players, so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in the modern era.

Accordingly, Jordan's 6 rings as the best player is the goat achievement..

And he won all 6 with a true 2nd option that had low statistical peak and averaged far less in every Playoffs, while every other top 10 player had elite 1st options, equal-scoring partners and FMVP's as sidekicks.

[Axe]

Bill Russell exists, and he makes both of them looks like bum by that logic.
/thread

[Axe]

All 40 MVP's in the modern era (3-pointer basketball) were dominant offensive players, so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in the modern era.

Accordingly, Jordan's 6 rings as the best player is the goat achievement..

And he won all 6 with a true 2nd option that had low statistical peak and averaged far less in every Playoffs, while every other top 10 player had elite 1st options, equal-scoring partners and FMVP's as sidekicks.
So you aren't denying that he didn't win anything without pip? Lmao.

[3ball]

.

* lower production rate than Jordan (Jordan had goat production rate

* lesser team offenses than Jordan (Jordan had goat team offenses)

* zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick)

* needs equal-scoring sidekick to win


Seems like Jordan was the far more dominant player

05' Lebron had the #12 defense, while Zydrunas was better offensively than 90' Pippen (#19 defense) - so Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball but was lottery, while MJ nearly beat the champs..

Jordan's 89' and 90' teams had a weaker offensive 2nd option and weaker team defense, but still outperformed lebron's 05' team, and 07' and 09'.

[3ball]

So you aren't denying that he didn't win anything without pip? Lmao.


Who is Pip.. Pip sucked and inferior help to what everyone else had

Pippen was a true 2nd option with low statistical peak and averaged far less than MJ in every Playoffs, whereas every other top 10 player had elite 1st options, equal-scoring partners and FMVP's as sidekicks.

No comparison... 2nd options like Pippen < elite 1st options

[Axe]

Who is Pip.. Pip sucked

Jordan won all 6 with a true 2nd option that had low statistical peak and averaged far less in every Playoffs, while every other top 10 player had elite 1st options, equal-scoring partners and FMVP's as sidekicks.
Rubbish take as usual

[3ball]

Rubbish take as usual


Pippen was a true 2nd option with low statistical peak and averaged far less than MJ in every Playoffs - fact

whereas every other top 10 player had elite 1st options, equal-scoring partners and FMVP's as sidekicks - fact

2nd options like Pippen < elite 1st options - fact

[SATAN]

Meanwhile in Orlando

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/magic/2015/01/28/PMM0895PNICKSTEALvJordanmp4-3503590.576x324.jpg

[TheGoatest]

Meanwhile in Orlando

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/magic/2015/01/28/PMM0895PNICKSTEALvJordanmp4-3503590.576x324.jpg

It doesn't count because he just came out of retirement, dammit!

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/71/20/48/712048034f4b285065cb03ba3aa0660a.gif

Nevermind the fact that he scored 55 in his 5th game back against the Knicks. Him choking in his 27th game after coming back still doesn't count because of his baseball retirement. :cry:

[Walk on Water]

Rubbish take as usual


Jordan made Pippen. Without Jordan, Pippen would have been the equivalent of a Bruce Bowen that could score a little easier.

[k0kakw0rld]

I’m not sure you understand what I’m asking. Let’s say you think Lebron is the most dominant player ever. Let’s say you think he carries teams and is unbelievable. That doesn’t change the fact that he lost against Dallas. It doesn’t change that he lost against San Antonio by a record margin, even with Chris Bosh and Wade. It doesn’t change the fact that even though he came back from 3-1 against Golden State, he still lost 3 out of 4 series. He lost 4-1 in 2017, even with Irving and Love.

So what I’m saying is how is it relevant whether he’s the goat, if he doesn’t get you the ultimate goal very efficiently? Now I know some of you are going to bring up Jordan losing in the playoffs or you might say based on my logic, Jordan isn’t the goat cuz he didn’t win the most.

But you get what I’m saying. Lebron has won 4 rings. That’s a lot compared to many players, but when you consider how long he’s played, the super teams he’s been on, and how many finals he has lost, the degree to which he’s lost, the fact 2 were game 7s, it doesn’t seem like the prettiest path. To me, winning 6 out of your first 13 seasons and going 6-0 in the Finals while playing baseball in the midst of everything is better than going 4-6 in your first 17 seasons and only playing one sport.

To me, Jordan had a perfect career. A clean 6 for 6, 10 scoring titles, no disappointments, and he played baseball too. He won more with less effort. He never lost. Even if Lebron is the most dominant player ever, what good is that if you can’t just go 6 for 6 and you need super teams?
No one expected MJ to surpass anything when he got into the league. Contrary to LeBron, who was called the chosen one, King James before even entering the league. They did not play under the same media pressure. LeBron got in the league with huge expectations. Every loss was documented, criticized. I don't believe there is an athlete who faced what LeBron had to go through and continues to go through. today.

After that Dallas loss many would have retired with the hate getting to their heads. Give the man some credit for striving under adversity. He got knocked down many times, got back up only to swing, and finally win like a legend supposed to.

Ali lost but in the eyes of many he is the GREATEST

Floyd never lost but people are having a hard time putting him in the TOP 3 all time boxers ever. Having a perfect nba final record doesn't mean shit. Especially we know the competition you have faced was not as elite as people may think.

[3ball]

No one expected MJ to surpass anything when he got into the league. Contrary to LeBron, who was called the chosen one, King James before even entering the league. They did not play under the same media pressure. LeBron got in the league with huge expectations. Every loss was documented, criticized. I don't believe there is an athlete who faced what LeBron had to go through and continues to go through. today.

After that Dallas loss many would have retired with the hate getting to their heads. Give the man some credit for striving under adversity. He got knocked down many times, got back up only to swing, and finally win like a legend supposed to.

Ali lost but in the eyes of many he is the GREATEST

Floyd never lost but people are having a hard time putting him in the TOP 3 all time boxers ever. Having a perfect nba final record doesn't mean shit. Especially we know the competition you have faced was not as elite as people may think.


It isn't about not losing

It's about winning 6 as the best player, or 2-3 more than anyone in 3-pointer/modern history..

As a statistical testament to Jordan's greatness, he achieved the goat production rate (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), while achieving a goat brand of ball and team offense.. So should we be surprised he achieved the goat team ceiling too (6/6)?

The highest individual ceiling (scoring champ and top 5 DPOY from 88-98') achieved the goat team ceiling (6/6) of the modern era/3-pointer basketball (or post ABA/NBA merger)

MJ did all this with a true 2nd option that had a sub-par statistical peak and averaged far less than MJ in every Playoffs, whereas every other top 10 player had elite 1st options, equal-scoring partners and FMVP's as sidekicks.

No comparison... 2nd options like Pippen < elite 1st options

[light]

To me, Jordan had a perfect career. A clean 6 for 6, 10 scoring titles, no disappointments, and he played baseball too. He won more with less effort. He never lost.

No disappointments!?

You do not sound like you were a Jordan fan at the time.

A bit of backstory - I was a hardcore Michael Jordan fan from 1988 to 2002 and I've been the same way with LeBron James from about 2006 to now.

1989 and 1990 were not fun years for Jordan fans. But he was young. It was only a matter of time.

1995 was actually traumatic.

Sure, we saw MJ lose before, but not as a champion, and not with that kind of build up and anticipation with everyone waiting for his return and everyone predicting that the Bulls were going to instantly win the title again. Of course we thought they were going to win because it's Michael Jordan. It was supposed to be the most epic and triumphant comeback of all time.

Losing in 1995 was a huge, huge letdown. It didn't feel like being a fan of a player in the middle of an undefeated run. It felt like losing.

All of those arguments that exist today about why 1995 didn't matter and all of the excuses for his poor play came from guys like me to mask our pain.

The sting of 1995 and 2011 felt similar to me, though I was more confident about LeBron's future in 2011 than I was about the future of 32 year old Jordan in 1995.

[8Ball]

Who is Pip.. Pip sucked and inferior help to what everyone else had

Pippen was a true 2nd option with low statistical peak and averaged far less than MJ in every Playoffs, whereas every other top 10 player had elite 1st options, equal-scoring partners and FMVP's as sidekicks.

No comparison... 2nd options like Pippen < elite 1st options

1-9

[ZionDunks]

Will be awesome when Lebron topics don’t flood page one. Bad for the league and the site

[Walk on Water]

No disappointments!?

You do not sound like you were a Jordan fan at the time.

A bit of backstory - I was a hardcore Michael Jordan fan from 1988 to 2002 and I've been the same way with LeBron James from about 2006 to now.

1989 and 1990 were not fun years for Jordan fans. But he was young. It was only a matter of time.

1995 was actually traumatic.

Sure, we saw MJ lose before, but not as a champion, and not with that kind of build up and anticipation with everyone waiting for his return and everyone predicting that the Bulls were going to instantly win the title again. Of course we thought they were going to win because it's Michael Jordan. It was supposed to be the most epic and triumphant comeback of all time.

Losing in 1995 was a huge, huge letdown. It didn't feel like being a fan of a player in the middle of an undefeated run. It felt like losing.

All of those arguments that exist today about why 1995 didn't matter and all of the excuses for his poor play came from guys like me to mask our pain.

The sting of 1995 and 2011 felt similar to me, though I was more confident about LeBron's future in 2011 than I was about the future of 32 year old Jordan in 1995.



I wasn't a Jordan fan at the time. I wish I was. I was very little and didn't understand the significance of Mike. I wasn't able to watch every game. But once he came to the Wizards, I had league pass and made sure to watch him as much as possible. Finally got to see him play a game in person and he scored 23 points against the Warriors.

I don't understand how you can knock Jordan for losing in 95. He was playing baseball for 2 years. When you play baseball, you are in a different kind of shape than when you play basketball. Lebron never played more than one sport professionally. Jordan is ambitious. He even hit a home run to end his baseball career. Jordan was better than most people say. He proved that whatever he did, he set his mind to it.

You have to give him a pass because he was playing baseball. What happened after that? He won 3 straight. And then the owner prevented him from winning more. Also, 95 wasn't the NBA Finals.

[bison]

LeBron dominates when it comes to occupying rent free brains.

[Walk on Water]

LeBron dominates when it comes to occupying rent free brains.


I wouldn't give Lebron all the credit. It's people like you that occupy us.

[Axe]

I wouldn't give Lebron all the credit. It's people like you that occupy us.
Did you just get your adderall script filled again, making you excited as ever?