View Full Version : Season by Season analysis: MJ vs Lebron on pre-season odds & finishes
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 11:42 AM
I decide that its time to put this MJ vs Lebron debate to rest with a thorough analysis on why Lebron is not even close to MJ, so here I am. I have compiled a table of season by season comparison of MJ and Lebron. This table compares MJ and Lebron based on how they performed according to expectation. The pre-season odds are a great matrix to determine the strength of each team, a team favorite to win by the odds is the best team in the league for the very season. Lets take a look:
https://i.ibb.co/s15GhMX/MJ-vs-Lebron-comparison.png
https://i.ibb.co/QbkKF7Q/MJ-vs-Lebron-comparison-legends.png
Note:
* The Cavs started the season as 4th favorite and should be in championship window, but dropped back to 5th following the Lakers trade for Gasol. For this reason, the 2007-2008 season does not count as a championship window year for Lebron.
** The Lakers were favorite to win in pre-season and remained as favorite even after the Nets Harden trade. For this reason, the 2020-2021 season is considered a Championship Favorite Year for Lebron.
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 11:45 AM
So MJ in his Bulls career, never failed expectation based on pre-season odds. When his team wasnt in championship window(aka not a contender), he actually managed to take them further than they were projected. When his team was projected to win, he always won it all. MJ went 5 out of 5 when he was favorite to win, and 6 out of 6 in championship window years. When he had a team good enough to win, the trophy never went to anyone else.
Lebron on the other hand, underachieved 6 times while overachieved only 4 times. His career was characterized by failure to win with superior team and inability to meet expectation. When he was favored from 2011 to 2016, he managed only 3 rings out of 6 championship favorite years. When he was in championship window years, he managed 4 rings out of 10. Either way you look at it, he aint a winner on the biggest stage of basketball.
To summarize, MJ is the clear-cut better player, theres no contest at all. Hopefully this will end the MJ vs Lebron debate for good. Btw, Lebron is again favorite to win in 2021 season, lets see if he will screw up like he usually does.
Disclaimer: I do not make up the pre-season odds data myself, they were taken from basketball-reference.com as they appeared. Heres an example of 2011-2012 season, in which the Heat was favorite to win that year:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012_preseason_odds.html
scuzzy
03-18-2021, 12:23 PM
MJ standard: 1-9 was above expectations
Not my goat
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 12:26 PM
Not my goat
The Bulls were projected not to be a playoffs team during these 3 years(ranked 21st, 18th and 20th on pre-season odds). Taking a lottery bound team to playoffs was an accomplishment well above expectation, just like Lebron taking 2007 Cavs to the Finals.
scuzzy
03-18-2021, 12:28 PM
MJ standard: 2002 and 2003 doesn't exit
not my goat
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 12:29 PM
not my goat
Of course 2002 and 2003 dont count, we all know that except for MJ haters.
Anyway, even adding 2002 and 2003 to MJ's resume he would still be far better than Lebron's. Lebronstans cannot explain why Lebron underachieved more than he overachieved.
:cheers:
8Ball
03-18-2021, 12:32 PM
Pre season odds are useless.
What is Jordan's odds of winning a playoff game without Pippen?
1-9
8Ball
03-18-2021, 12:33 PM
not my goat
2002 and 2003 were dog shit years for Jordan. Years 14 and 15.
LeBron is in year 18 and blows Jordan year 14 and Jordan year 15 out of the water.
The gap is widening.
scuzzy
03-18-2021, 12:34 PM
2002 and 2003 were dog shit years for Jordan. Years 14 and 15.
LeBron is in year 18 and blows Jordan year 14 and Jordan year 15 out of the water.
The gap is widening.
The goat standard :cheers:
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 12:34 PM
Pre season odds are useless.
Pre-season odds are very useful determining the strength of each team. If a team is favorite to win by pre-season odds, then it indicates that this is the most talented team in that given season. Failure to take a pre-season #1 team to win title, is a major disappointment and lackluster performance from a superstar player.
Of course, this has to be adjusted by major trades happened in mid-season, why is why I didnt count Lebron's 2007-2008 season as a championship window year(Gasol trade happened). However, even with this one out of the way, Lebron still managed to underachieve more than overachieve.
8Ball
03-18-2021, 12:35 PM
The goat standard :cheers:
Imagine if Kobe and Shaq both quit in 2002 after their 3 peat because they were "mentally fatigued" and needed to go on Kawhi style Load Management for a full year :roll:
If LeBron ever quit mid career for "Load Management" due to mental and physical fatigue after just 3 finals appearances I would disown LeBron. But here we are with Jordan.
8Ball
03-18-2021, 12:37 PM
Pre-season odds are very useful determining the strength of each team. If a team is favorite to win by pre-season odds, then it indicates that this is the most talented team in that given season. Failure to take a pre-season #1 team to win title, is a major disappointment and lackluster performance from a superstar player.
Of course, this has to be adjusted by major trades happened in mid-season, why is why I didnt count Lebron's 2007-2008 season as a championship window year(Gasol trade happened). However, even with this one out of the way, Lebron still managed to underachieve more than overachieve.
Pre-season odds is based off betting patterns of the ignorant masses and Vegas's ability to profit off those patterns.
Talk about underachievement, tell me about Jordan being healthy (no injuries to himself) in 2002 and 2003 and not making the playoffs. Was Jordan ever a 4th seed in the West in any of those 2 years?
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 12:39 PM
Imagine if Kobe and Shaq both quit in 2002 after their 3 peat because they were "mentally fatigued" and needed to go on Kawhi style Load Management for a full year :roll:
If LeBron ever quit mid career for "Load Management" due to mental and physical fatigue after just 3 finals appearances I would disown LeBron. But here we are with Jordan.
MJ quit 'cause he was so much better than the opposition, he was just too good and he felt bored. Lebron never had the luxury to retire due to boredom 'cause he was always beaten in the Finals. If MJ lost more finals than he won, he would have not retired and continued to play 20 years from 1984 to 2003, but his legacy would not be better at all.
8Ball
03-18-2021, 12:41 PM
Jordan was so much better than competition that he lost in 1995 against that same competition.
scuzzy
03-18-2021, 12:42 PM
Jordan was so much better than competition that he lost in 1995 against that same competition.
prime MJ expectations were 2nd round exits
this was their goat :(
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 12:44 PM
prime MJ expectations were 2nd round exits
this was their goat :(
Because basketball is a team sport, the entire Bulls rosters sucked until they drafted Pippen. A lot of people say how bad Lebron's Cavs teammates were before he moved to Miami, but even the teammates like Larry Hughs were so much better than MJ's teammates in his first 3 seasons.
scuzzy
03-18-2021, 12:46 PM
3rd option Larry Hughes >> lottery Wizards >> above MJ expectations
:(
TheGoatest
03-18-2021, 12:47 PM
Pre season odds are useless.
OP really spent like half an hour of his life making that chart on this useless shyt. :oldlol:
He probably thought he was being scientific, giving it different colors and such. :roll:
8Ball
03-18-2021, 12:52 PM
3rd option Larry Hughes >> lottery Wizards >> above MJ expectations
:(
If you told me healthy LeBron in year 14 and 15 did not make the playoffs in the East I would tell you he's not my GOAT.
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 12:58 PM
Gotta love how Lebronstans tried to digress from the lackluster performance of Lebron, they were trying to be super picky on MJ's resume without realizing that even if we add 2002/2003 to the chart, he still far outperformed Lebron. MJ missed playoffs 2 times even if we consider 2002-2003, while Lebron already did it 3 times and his career aint even done yet.
:pimp:
dankok8
03-18-2021, 01:00 PM
LeStans don't accept any kind of data. For them it's anecdotes and everyone who disagrees is a hater.
I made a thread clearly showing that MJ in his peak years from 1988-1993 is much better than Lebron. 5 more PPG, same efficiency, same creation, lower turnovers, around the same defense. I mean you know that a player with that kind of scoring edge is flat out better. The OP simply supports that MJ is the better basketball player.
Longevity is a different argument all together but I'm not convinced that 18 years of Lebron give you a better chance to win than 12 Bulls years of MJ. Lebron is on 4 titles (one of them in 2020 as a co-1st option) and may win a 5th this season. Jordan won 6 titles in a shorter time span. 6 titles is still more than 4 or 5. Things like being the all-time scoring leader mean less when everyone knows MJ doesn't have that record because he retired. If MJ played straight from 84-85 to 02-03 with even conservative averages he would have retired around 43-45k points. And he didn't retire for basketball reasons. It's not like his body broke down. He retired on his own volition.
And although I'm never the one to blame collusion etc. no one can deny that modern superstars have more control over their destiny and can easily find teams to win titles. Imagine if MJ followed Phil and joined the Lakers in 1999 and then proceeded to threepeat alongside Shaq. He'd retire with 9 chips. It was unthinkable in that era and teams in the 90's didn't have cap space to sign two superstars plus there were other restrictions. But a player of Jordan's quality could probably find a way to win 8-9 titles today simply because player movement is unrestricted.
This 8ball guy is one of the worst posters I've ever seen and that's saying a lot consider this is ISH! :oldlol:
MJ went to take a mental break from basketball... to play baseball, a sport he never competed in professionally. Great theory! Tell me more... :facepalm
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 01:01 PM
LeStans don't accept any kind of data. For them it's anecdotes and everyone who disagrees is a hater.
Nah they accept data when its in their favor, like a lot of advanced stats such as PER. When the data goes against them however, they dismiss it. Its more like double standard if you ask me.
:pimp:
And although I'm never the one to blame collusion etc.
Same here, I also never blamed Lebron for collusion. The problem is, however, that he still somehow managed to lose more finals than he won despite colluding. Once the collusion began, Lebron no longer had any excuses for failure to win NBA titles. Its ring or bust as soon as he took this path, and he had performed below expectation again and again.
dankok8
03-18-2021, 01:10 PM
Nah they accept data when its in their favor, like a lot of advanced stats such as PER. When the data goes against them however, they dismiss it. Its more like double standard if you ask me.
:pimp:
Same here, I also never blamed Lebron for collusion. The problem is, however, that he still somehow managed to lose more finals than he won despite colluding. Once the collusion began, Lebron no longer had any excuses for failure to win NBA titles. Its ring or bust as soon as he took this path, and he had performed below expectation again and again.
Jordan still has a higher PER even for his career. But either way PER is a bullshit stat. Surely if it ranks #1 and supposedly #2 all-time correctly, PER can accurately predict the best players beyond that? Until you start seeing names like Bob Pettit, Chris Paul and James Harden in the top 10...
I don't blame players for collusion because that's today's era. However one still has to wonder things like if he could, would MJ simply join the Lakers in 1998 or 1999 with Phil and go on to threepeat with Shaq and end up with 9 titles. And everyone knows with 9 rings the debate simply wouldn't exist.
TheMan
03-18-2021, 01:11 PM
OP, why even bother? Even current NBA players whom are playing with and against LeFraud know MJ is the GOAT, and it's not even close, in fact, the real debate is between who is better, LBJ or Kobe :confusedshrug:
In a poll conducted by The Athletic of 117 current NBA players, Jordan is considered the greatest of all time, and it’s not even close.
Michael Jordan (73%)
LeBron James (11.9%)
Kobe Bryant (10.6%)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1.7%)
Magic Johnson, Allen Iverson, Kevin Durant (1%)
https://www.sportscasting.com/michael-jordan-or-lebron-james-who-do-nba-players-think-is-the-goat/
You would think the players CURRENTLY PLAYING RIGHT NOW with and against LeBron would be more biased towards him if he was so great but apparently not :( Now when you ask players from past eras, especially those who played with and against MJ, he is unanimously picked as GOAT, except of course Isiah Thomas, who still has an axe to grind from being left off the Dream Team :oldlol:
3ball
03-18-2021, 01:14 PM
.
05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48... #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals
^^^ Jordan always did more with less
Akeem34TheDream
03-18-2021, 01:17 PM
Why the fck would you feel the need to defend Michael Jordan? He is Michael Jordan.
3ball
03-18-2021, 01:18 PM
Why the fck would you feel the need to defend Michael Jordan? He is Michael Jordan.
Exactly
09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense
^^^ lebron lost to 1-star Magic, while MJ nearly beat the champs
05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP
Akeem34TheDream
03-18-2021, 01:20 PM
Exactly
09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense
05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP
Bro.:facepalm I don't think you get my point.:lol
SouBeachTalents
03-18-2021, 01:21 PM
OP, why even bother? Even current NBA players whom are playing with and against LeFraud know MJ is the GOAT, and it's not even close, in fact, the real debate is between who is better, LBJ or Kobe :confusedshrug:
https://www.sportscasting.com/michael-jordan-or-lebron-james-who-do-nba-players-think-is-the-goat/
Why would you use such an embarrassingly trash poll like that, Allen fcking Iverson getting the 5th most votes for GOAT :oldlol:
3ball
03-18-2021, 01:22 PM
Bro.:facepalm I don't think you get my point.:lol
Wade 2013 Finals......... 19.6 on 47%... 4.6 apg.. 2.2 turnovers (outscored opposing #1 option)
Pippen Career Finals.... 19.0 on 42%... 5.9 apg.. 3.3 turnovers
Wade averaged 7 apg before lebron
TheMan
03-18-2021, 01:26 PM
Why would you use such an embarrassingly trash poll like that, Allen fcking Iverson getting the 5th most votes for GOAT :oldlol:
With 1%, must be a few AI fanbois but overall this poll coincides with basically EVERY poll out there, whether it be from current NBA players, past players, fans, NBA experts or NBA talking heads.
MJ is always the consensus GOAT, of course KAJ, Bird, Magic, LeBron and Wilt will get some votes but MJ is considered by the decided majority as the GOAT.
Deal with it, my man.
:cheers:
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 01:27 PM
Why the fck would you feel the need to defend Michael Jordan? He is Michael Jordan.
Yeah he is Michael Jordan and for a long time I thought it was common sense, but this RealGM thread changed my mind. I was surprised how many people are delusional in this GOAT debate that should have never existed, the media really fed the fans with so much lie and bullshit.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2007234
:facepalm
mehyaM24
03-18-2021, 01:33 PM
With 1%, must be a few AI fanbois but overall this poll coincides with basically EVERY poll out there, whether it be from current NBA players, past players, fans, NBA experts or NBA talking heads.
MJ is always the consensus GOAT, of course KAJ, Bird, Magic, LeBron and Wilt will get some votes but MJ is considered by the decided majority as the GOAT.
Deal with it, my man.
:cheers:
jordan isn't even the consensus with mainstream media.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hddRMa-bbdc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hddRMa-bbdc
lebron simply does more with less. you can agree to disagree on peak play, but its close regardless. when you factor in whose had the better CAREER though it'll be lebron, and that's because of superior longevity.
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 01:34 PM
jordan isn't even the consensus in the mainstream media.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hddRMa-bbdc
lebron simply does more with less. you can agree to disagree on peak play, but its close regardless. when you factor in whose had the better career though it'll be lebron, and that's because of superior longevity.
Nope MJ is the consensus #1, and Lebron does less with more. Lebron had 6 years as pre-season favorite, and he managed 3 rings. MJ had 5 years as pre-season favorite, and he won all 5.
TheMan
03-18-2021, 01:35 PM
jordan isn't even the consensus with mainstream media.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hddRMa-bbdc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hddRMa-bbdc
lebron simply does more with less. you can agree to disagree on peak play, but its close regardless. when you factor in whose had the better career though it'll be lebron, and that's because of superior longevity.
The mainstream media ROFL...
And do you know what consensus means? It doesn't mean absolutely everyone, it simply means a majority, and MJ wins polls by getting 70% plus of the votes while LeBron is usually in the 10% plus, splitting votes with KAJ, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq etc.
Facts.
mehyaM24
03-18-2021, 01:36 PM
Nope MJ is the consensus #1, and Lebron does less with more. Lebron had 6 years as pre-season favorite, and he managed 3 rings. MJ had 5 years as pre-season favorite, and he won all 5.
lebron never had more than jordan while doing less. so that negated everything you just wrote.
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 01:38 PM
lebron never had more than jordan while doing less. so that negated everything you just wrote.
Did you read the thread and looked the chart at all? Lebron had the best team in the league from 2011 to 2016, and he won 3 rings. MJ had the best team in 1992, 1993 and 1996-1998, he wont all 5 rings. You said Lebron never had more talent in his team, but evidence goes against your argument.
mehyaM24
03-18-2021, 01:39 PM
The mainstream media ROFL...
And do you know what consensus means?
he isn't consensus in media even with mj guys like max kellerman :oldlol: someone who worships the ground jordan walks on.
better pickup a dictionary, kid. in no world is mj "consensus" goat.
mehyaM24
03-18-2021, 01:43 PM
Did you read the thread and looked the chart at all? Lebron had the best team in the league from 2011 to 2016, and he won 3 rings. MJ had the best team in 1992, 1993 and 1996-1998, he wont all 5 rings. You said Lebron never had more talent in his team, but evidence goes against your argument.
preseason odds mean little to nothing. new title contenders emerge and throw off odds all the time. that is beside the point however. jordan never took a team to the finals as weak as the 07 or 18 cavs. lebron did, hence doing more with less.
3ball
03-18-2021, 01:45 PM
.
06' Zydrunas.... 21.9 PER.. 0.184 WS/48... #16 team defense.. 2nd Round loss
05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48... #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.... #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals
05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP
Yeah he is Michael Jordan and for a long time I thought it was common sense, but this RealGM thread changed my mind. I was surprised how many people are delusional in this GOAT debate that should have never existed, the media really fed the fans with so much lie and bullshit.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2007234
:facepalm
Yes, so many misperceptions
One of the biggest misperceptions is when people conflate the results of Jordan's 8 seeds (85-87') with the results of Lebron's developed, high seeds (06-10').
Jordan's 8 seeds are more comparable to Lebron's low seeds from 04' and 05', and not the 06' high seed that had added a 22/5/5 first-team defender and the future COY (top 5 defenses)
Infact, the stats show that Lebron's 2006 Cavs had more help on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls - they had a better defense and 2 players with greater offensive capacity than Pippen (stats above).
Ultimately, Lebron had developed, high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, yet fans compare this to Jordan's 8 seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.
dankok8
03-18-2021, 01:49 PM
Preseason odds do mean a lot. Preseason odds are based on perceived talent by millions who bet on NBA games.
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 01:50 PM
preseason odds mean little to nothing. new title contenders emerge and throw off odds all the time. that is beside the point however. jordan never took a team to the finals as weak as the 07 or 18 cavs. lebron did, hence doing more with less.
Preseason odds are definite representation of the talent level on each team before the season starts. At this point no one can predict the chemistry, coaching and other impacts, so the odds are judged by raw talents. Lebron being pre-season favorite from 2011 to 2016 showed that his team had the best rosters in the league during these 6 years, and he underperformed in 3 out of these 6 years.
And nope the 2018 Cavs were not that weak when the season started. They traded all-star players like Isaiah Thomas for role players so the rosters looked weaker coming playoffs time. But why they made the trade? 'cause IT, Wade and Rose aint compatible with Lebron system. They had to give up talents for chemistry, which is Lebron's own fault since he never tried to adjust his playstyle to fit his teammates.
Airupthere
03-18-2021, 01:52 PM
Good post and effort Kidd. Gives a different view and validation on these discussions.
mehyaM24
03-18-2021, 01:53 PM
preseason odds fluctuate throughout the regular-season, rendering them pretty useless. they're about as "good" as jordan's playoff record without pippen :oldlol:
TheMan
03-18-2021, 01:57 PM
he isn't consensus in media even with mj guys like max kellerman :oldlol: someone who worships the ground jordan walks on.
better pickup a dictionary, kid. in no world is mj "consensus" goat.
Early in his career, Jordan was already the greatest individual talent we had ever seen since Wilt Chamberlain, but he wasn’t a champion. He was winning games for the Chicago Bulls even though he was not in the same category as Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. The Finals was an annual ritual for these guys and Jordan was not to be invited…yet.
After winning six titles in the 90s and retiring for the second time before the decade was over, Air Jordan was the consensus choice as the best player in league history.
:confusedshrug:
https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/04/30/the-reasons-why-michael-jordan-is-the-best-of-all-time/
Can you cite even one article that argues LBJ as the consensus GOAT? There are more links where MJ is considered the consensus GOAT but google is your friend.
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 01:58 PM
preseason odds fluctuate throughout the regular-season, rendering them pretty useless.
Preseaon odds are still useful 'cause they are the best representation of the talent level on the rosters of each team. The title odds change in regular season due to injuries, trades and team chemistry, while for Lebron the major problem is team chemistry(only in 2015 and 2019 had his title odds affected by injuries, so this isnt an excuse). The Spurs and Warriors had much better chemistry so they overcame the talent disparity against Lebron's Heat/Cavs. And Lebron has only himself to blame for the lack of team chemistry, he cant co-exist with most all-star teammates due to his ball-dominant playing style. Ball movement is almost non-existent for each team Lebron plays with.
tpols
03-18-2021, 02:02 PM
Preseason odds do mean a lot. Preseason odds are based on perceived talent by millions who bet on NBA games.
Yup... they are hugely important and help eliminate hindsight bias.
8Ball
03-18-2021, 02:04 PM
Nah they accept data when its in their favor, like a lot of advanced stats such as PER. When the data goes against them however, they dismiss it. Its more like double standard if you ask me.
:pimp:
Same here, I also never blamed Lebron for collusion. The problem is, however, that he still somehow managed to lose more finals than he won despite colluding. Once the collusion began, Lebron no longer had any excuses for failure to win NBA titles. Its ring or bust as soon as he took this path, and he had performed below expectation again and again.
You keep using garbage data and wonder why nobody listens.
8Ball
03-18-2021, 02:06 PM
Preseason odds are definite representation of the talent level on each team before the season starts. At this point no one can predict the chemistry, coaching and other impacts, so the odds are judged by raw talents. Lebron being pre-season favorite from 2011 to 2016 showed that his team had the best rosters in the league during these 6 years, and he underperformed in 3 out of these 6 years.
And nope the 2018 Cavs were not that weak when the season started. They traded all-star players like Isaiah Thomas for role players so the rosters looked weaker coming playoffs time. But why they made the trade? 'cause IT, Wade and Rose aint compatible with Lebron system. They had to give up talents for chemistry, which is Lebron's own fault since he never tried to adjust his playstyle to fit his teammates.
Pre-season odds did not incorporate the fact that IT was injured and wouldn't be able to play anymore.
Where is IT now?
So you keep inputting garbage data into your head and wonder why this thread backfired on you.
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 02:06 PM
You keep using garbage data and wonder why nobody listens.
Yeah according to you any data in Lebron's favor is useful, any data against Lebron is garbage. Double standard bro.
:lol
8Ball
03-18-2021, 02:08 PM
LeStans don't accept any kind of data. For them it's anecdotes and everyone who disagrees is a hater.
I made a thread clearly showing that MJ in his peak years from 1988-1993 is much better than Lebron. 5 more PPG, same efficiency, same creation, lower turnovers, around the same defense. I mean you know that a player with that kind of scoring edge is flat out better. The OP simply supports that MJ is the better basketball player.
Longevity is a different argument all together but I'm not convinced that 18 years of Lebron give you a better chance to win than 12 Bulls years of MJ. Lebron is on 4 titles (one of them in 2020 as a co-1st option) and may win a 5th this season. Jordan won 6 titles in a shorter time span. 6 titles is still more than 4 or 5. Things like being the all-time scoring leader mean less when everyone knows MJ doesn't have that record because he retired. If MJ played straight from 84-85 to 02-03 with even conservative averages he would have retired around 43-45k points. And he didn't retire for basketball reasons. It's not like his body broke down. He retired on his own volition.
And although I'm never the one to blame collusion etc. no one can deny that modern superstars have more control over their destiny and can easily find teams to win titles. Imagine if MJ followed Phil and joined the Lakers in 1999 and then proceeded to threepeat alongside Shaq. He'd retire with 9 chips. It was unthinkable in that era and teams in the 90's didn't have cap space to sign two superstars plus there were other restrictions. But a player of Jordan's quality could probably find a way to win 8-9 titles today simply because player movement is unrestricted.
This 8ball guy is one of the worst posters I've ever seen and that's saying a lot consider this is ISH! :oldlol:
MJ went to take a mental break from basketball... to play baseball, a sport he never competed in professionally. Great theory! Tell me more... :facepalm
MJ was mentally broken. Imagine LeBron after 3 trips to the finals in a row told the world he needed "Load Management". I would spit on his shoes if he did that.
I have never lost an argument on this forum to 1 Jordan stan.
You think I am the worst poster because I destroy your arguments every time. You are 3ball level to me. I don't consider you the worst, you are just ignorant. But I don't fault humans for being ignorant.
8Ball
03-18-2021, 02:09 PM
Yeah according to you any data in Lebron's favor is useful, any data against Lebron is garbage. Double standard bro.
:lol
If you take garbage off the street that nobody uses and said its good food, its not a double standard, stop taking garbage off the street and passing it off like "data".
I would never use pre-season odds as an argument against any player because I am too smart for that. You are digging the bottom of the barrel now to try to find something against LeBron. And you failed.
8Ball
03-18-2021, 02:11 PM
Here is some data for you that is actual and not a Vegas projection: Jordan's odds of winning a playoff game without Pippen is 1-9
mehyaM24
03-18-2021, 02:15 PM
:confusedshrug:
https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/04/30/the-reasons-why-michael-jordan-is-the-best-of-all-time/
Can you cite even one article that argues LBJ as the consensus GOAT? There are more links where MJ is considered the consensus GOAT but google is your friend.
i never claimed lebron was consensus goat though. YOU are claiming jordan is when in reality he is not. nobody is. that's backed by the MEDIA who did nothing but prop him up in the 90s.
comeup with a better argument.
dankok8
03-18-2021, 02:17 PM
MJ was mentally broken. Imagine LeBron after 3 trips to the finals in a row told the world he needed "Load Management". I would spit on his shoes if he did that.
I have never lost an argument on this forum to 1 Jordan stan.
You think I am the worst poster because I destroy your arguments every time. You are 3ball level to me. I don't consider you the worst, you are just ignorant. But I don't fault humans for being ignorant.
Think again what you're saying...
He took a mental break from basketball, a sport he dominated like no other to play another sport (baseball) which he never competed in professionally. Surely playing baseball and working like a dog just to make a place on a roster was much less taxing. :facepalm
8Ball
03-18-2021, 02:59 PM
Bill Russel won 11 championships. Tell me when he took a break after #3.
Shaq destroyed everyone 3 years in a row. He should have taken 2003 off like Jordan for "Load Management" so he can come back and rip off some more.
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 02:59 PM
i never claimed lebron was consensus goat though. YOU are claiming jordan is when in reality he is not. nobody is. that's backed by the MEDIA who did nothing but prop him up in the 90s.
comeup with a better argument.
MJ is the consensus GOAT, period. Lebron is not even the #2 on the all time list yet actually, he hasnt surpassed Magic and Kareem. He needs to win 5th ring to surpass Magic, and will need his 6th to get past Kareem.
3ball
03-18-2021, 03:04 PM
Bill Russel won 11 championships. Tell me when he took a break after #3.
Shaq destroyed everyone 3 years in a row. He should have taken 2003 off like Jordan for "Load Management" so he can come back and rip off some more.
Shaq didn't destroy all 3 years like MJ, and he had a 1b (Kobe), who matched Shaq's production in 01' and 02', especially against the better teams.
Jordan averaged 34/6/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs and 36/7/8 in the Finals... This was done with a true 2nd option, aka 1-man team defensive coverage..
No one is close
mehyaM24
03-18-2021, 03:07 PM
MJ is the consensus GOAT, period. Lebron is not even the #2 on the all time list yet actually, he hasnt surpassed Magic and Kareem. He needs to win 5th ring to surpass Magic, and will need his 6th to get past Kareem.
FOX/ESPN have been arguing lebron's case for months now. where have you been?
again this is the same media who gaslighted jordan throughout the 90s. keep talking about "consensus" though :oldlol:
SouBeachTalents
03-18-2021, 03:09 PM
MJ is the consensus GOAT, period. Lebron is not even the #2 on the all time list yet actually, he hasnt surpassed Magic and Kareem. He needs to win 5th ring to surpass Magic, and will need his 6th to get past Kareem.
Now you're just talking out of your ass, LeBron has surpassed Magic on virtually every all time list, Kareem too at this point
3ball
03-18-2021, 03:09 PM
FOX/ESPN have been arguing lebron's case for months now. where have you been?
They haven't made any case.. they just say he's goat or on Jordan's level
No case is made
They assume people think he carries teams and that beating the Curry Warriors with Kyrie once is goat
But the reality is that Lebron isn't capable of dragging a legit lottery team (a team that was lottery the prior year) to the Playoffs because he failed in 04', 05', and 19' - he only made the playoffs with developed, high seeds comprised of a few all-stars, gritty veterans and top defenses..
For example, he missed the playoffs with the East all-star center in 05', and needed to add a 22/6/5 all-defender along with the COY to make the 06' Playoffs.. he actually stole Hughes from Arenas and then beat him.
mehyaM24
03-18-2021, 03:13 PM
They haven't made any case.. they just say he's goat or on Jordan's level
just like i said. glad we agree, sir :cheers:
3ball
03-18-2021, 03:17 PM
so no consensus just like i said. glad we agree, sir :cheers:
The consensus in every poll is that Jordan is goat
Lebron is only goat in the media bubble
it's WWE manufactured entertainment and the media pushes the Lebron/Jordan narrative for ratings despite no actual case existing
It started with "the decision", where the media began coordinating with lebron to get him help/rings and market him as goat based on this fake resume they manufactured
Kiddlovesnets
03-18-2021, 05:06 PM
FOX/ESPN have been arguing lebron's case for months now. where have you been?
again this is the same media who gaslighted jordan throughout the 90s. keep talking about "consensus" though :oldlol:
Theres no GOAT case for Lebron, not even close. Everytime this debate was ever brought up, the conclusion was MJ is the GOAT, Lebron never got a realistic chance.
There is a FFOAT case for Lebron though, as Rob Parker was making this case for him:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT
Kiddlovesnets
03-19-2021, 12:02 PM
The consensus in every poll is that Jordan is goat
Lebron is only goat in the media bubble
I am starting to think that this so-called GOAT debate was just a propaganda for fans to believe Lebron is #2 on the all time list. Fans are easy to mislead, if we regularly compare Lebron to MJ, a lot of them will think that Lebron is second only to MJ. However, I wont put him ahead of Kareem and Magic yet, and Lebron shouldnt even be qualified to be compared to MJ until hes actually the consensus #2 all time.
The consensus in every poll is that Jordan is goat
Lebron is only goat in the media bubble
it's WWE manufactured entertainment and the media pushes the Lebron/Jordan narrative for ratings despite no actual case existing
It started with "the decision", where the media began coordinating with lebron to get him help/rings and market him as goat based on this fake resume they manufactured
Jordan is still the consensus GOAT but I’d imagine LeBron is the consensus second GOAT at this point.
Kiddlovesnets
03-19-2021, 12:14 PM
Jordan is still the consensus GOAT but I’d imagine LeBron is the consensus second GOAT at this point.
Kareem is the #2 GOAT.
mehyaM24
03-19-2021, 12:19 PM
Theres no GOAT case for Lebron, not even close. Everytime this debate was ever brought up, the conclusion was MJ is the GOAT, Lebron never got a realistic chance.
There is a FFOAT case for Lebron though, as Rob Parker was making this case for him:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT
lebron is called GOAT all the time by analysts & mainstream media. maybe vacate that rock you live under, turn on a television and edify your surroundings.
mehyaM24
03-19-2021, 12:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mFZrnieJXw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTE3y1U4sWM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_RQ07WB6ow
light
03-19-2021, 08:14 PM
This is an MJ-Pippen vs LeBron comparison, not an MJ vs LeBron comparison.
Jordan would not have any rings if he tried doing what LeBron did.
Jordan is still the consensus GOAT but I’d imagine LeBron is the consensus second GOAT at this point.
Nope, pretty sure jordan has become the fraud goat nowadays.
AirBonner
03-19-2021, 08:49 PM
Can anyone tell me MJ’s combined record vs Isiah Thomas, Larry Bird, and Magic?
Manny98
03-19-2021, 09:03 PM
MJ was held to some low ass expectations : for the supposed GOAToldlol:
kawhileonard2
03-19-2021, 09:39 PM
Lebron embarrassed America twice in the Olympics bringing home bronze. He also lost to a career loser in Dwight Howard with HCA (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page7) and lost to Dirk with HCA as well.
Kiddlovesnets
03-20-2021, 12:42 PM
Can anyone tell me MJ’s combined record vs Isiah Thomas, Larry Bird, and Magic?
MJ in NBA Finals:
1-0 against Magic
1-0 against Clyde
1-0 against Barkley
1-0 against Payton
2-0 against Malone
Lebron in NBA Finals
0-1 against Dirk
1-2 against Duncan
1-2 against Durant
1-3 against Curry
1-1 against Kawhi(5-7 on individual games)
Hot take.
Mauzah
03-20-2021, 03:58 PM
MJ was mentally broken. Imagine LeBron after 3 trips to the finals in a row told the world he needed "Load Management". I would spit on his shoes if he did that.
I have never lost an argument on this forum to 1 Jordan stan.
You think I am the worst poster because I destroy your arguments every time. You are 3ball level to me. I don't consider you the worst, you are just ignorant. But I don't fault humans for being ignorant.
I think you're too stupid to know that you're stupid.
MJ in NBA Finals:
1-0 against Magic
1-0 against Clyde
1-0 against Barkley
1-0 against Payton
2-0 against Malone
Lebron in NBA Finals
0-1 against Dirk
1-2 against Duncan
1-2 against Durant
1-3 against Curry
1-1 against Kawhi(5-7 on individual games)
Hot take.
Scintillating deflection rt
Kiddlovesnets
03-20-2021, 11:58 PM
This is an MJ-Pippen vs LeBron comparison, not an MJ vs LeBron comparison.
Jordan would not have any rings if he tried doing what LeBron did.
MJ would have easily 12-13 rings had he colluded like Lebron did. I don’t think Lebron was at fault for leaving Cleveland and forming a super team, but once he chose this path it’s just ring or bust. No more excuse that his teammates ain’t good and opponents too strong. Instead he went 3 out of 8 in his 2 superteams from 2011 to 2016, he is just not a winner on the biggest stage of basketball.
Kiddlovesnets
03-22-2021, 10:57 AM
I think you're too stupid to know that you're stupid.
Of course he is, anyone who use 1-9 argument against MJ is just trolling or plainly stupid. I know some are trolls but he seems just legitimately, stupid and actually believes in his nonsense.
:lol
SouBeachTalents
03-22-2021, 11:26 AM
Of course he is, anyone who use 1-9 argument against MJ is just trolling or plainly stupid. I know some are trolls but he seems just legitimately, stupid and actually believes in his nonsense.
:lol
Coming from the guy who legitimately believes it's worse to make the Finals than lose in the first round, you wanna call others stupid :lol Pot calling the kettle black there
Kiddlovesnets
03-22-2021, 11:33 AM
Coming from the guy who legitimately believes it's worse to make the Finals than lose in the first round, you wanna call others stupid :lol Pot calling the kettle black there
Context. Losing in the first round with a team supposed to be in the lottery, is better than losing in the finals as pre-season favorite to win the ring.
Kiddlovesnets
03-28-2021, 02:13 PM
Now if Lakers get Drummond, they will be heavy favorite and theres no excuse for Lebron not to win like in 2011 to 2016.
Ainosterhaspie
03-28-2021, 03:21 PM
Predictions mean more than performance is what this threads argues.
Predictions by people who do not know what they're talking about. Predictions based on a league that is substantially different on the day they are made, than when the results are determined. Predictions made with more information (i.e. those made closer in time to when the results are determined) are given less weight than Predictions made with far less information.
2015 Cavs prediction was based on expectation of healthy Irving/Love. That isn't what happened rendering the prediction meaningless. 1995 Bulls prediction was based on team without Jordan. That isn't what happened. Prediction is meaningless. Predictions this year based on Nets team without Harden/Aldrige/Griffen. That's not what happened making the prediction meaningless.
1986 Jordan makes playoffs with a losing record (just 30 wins) after missing almost the entire season and this laughable "metric" grades him exceeding expectations while dinging LeBron for not making the playoffs with a winning record in 2005. Making the finals, even winning the finals means less than missing most of the year then getting curbstomped in the first round according to this ludicrous system.
This is one of the worst methods of evaluating a player's career that I've ever seen, and on a board with 3balls incessant inane ramblings, that is no easy task.
SouBeachTalents
03-28-2021, 03:28 PM
Predictions mean more than performance is what this threads argues.
Predictions by people who do not know what they're talking about. Predictions based on a league that is substantially different on the day they are made, than when the results are determined. Predictions made with more information (i.e. those made closer in time to when the results are determined) are given less weight than Predictions made with far less information.
2015 Cavs prediction was based on expectation of healthy Irving/Love. That isn't what happened rendering the prediction meaningless. 1995 Bulls prediction was based on team without Jordan. That isn't what happened. Prediction is meaningless. Predictions this year based on Nets team without Harden/Aldrige/Griffen. That's not what happened making the prediction meaningless.
1986 Jordan makes playoffs with a losing record (just 30 wins) after missing almost the entire season and this laughable "metric" grades him exceeding expectations while dinging LeBron for not making the playoffs with a winning record in 2005. Making the finals, even winning the finals means less than missing most of the year then getting curbstomped in the first round according to this ludicrous system.
This is one of the worst methods of evaluating a player's career that I've ever seen, and on a board with 3balls incessant inane ramblings, that is no easy task.
https://blog.lootcrate.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/giphy-7.gif
Just meticulously dismembered the OP :oldlol:
3ball
03-28-2021, 03:54 PM
Predictions mean more than performance is what this threads argues.
Predictions by people who do not know what they're talking about. Predictions based on a league that is substantially different on the day they are made, than when the results are determined. Predictions made with more information (i.e. those made closer in time to when the results are determined) are given less weight than Predictions made with far less information.
2015 Cavs prediction was based on expectation of healthy Irving/Love. That isn't what happened rendering the prediction meaningless. 1995 Bulls prediction was based on team without Jordan. That isn't what happened. Prediction is meaningless. Predictions this year based on Nets team without Harden/Aldrige/Griffen. That's not what happened making the prediction meaningless.
1986 Jordan makes playoffs with a losing record (just 30 wins) after missing almost the entire season and this laughable "metric" grades him exceeding expectations while dinging LeBron for not making the playoffs with a winning record in 2005. Making the finals, even winning the finals means less than missing most of the year then getting curbstomped in the first round according to this ludicrous system.
This is one of the worst methods of evaluating a player's career that I've ever seen, and on a board with 3balls incessant inane ramblings, that is no easy task.
The problem is that MJ fans provide many facts like meeting the preseason odds expectation, or #1 offenses with less offensive help, or superior production rate, or superior winning
And you provide no facts - you just say lebron is goat with zero facts or evidence.. when pressed for evidence, you provide inferior accomplishment as evidence or meaningless longevity feats.
Secondly, nearly all teams made the playoffs in the 80's (16 of 23 teams), compared to only half the teams in today's game.. So weak teams like Jordan's were forced into the playoffs as low seeds, while lebron's weakest teams avoided 8 vs 1 matchups against the 19 Warriors or 04' Pistons.
Ultimately, Lebron only made the playoffs with developed high seeds, and failed 3 times to carry actual lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the Playoffs (04', 05', 19').. by failing to carry lottery casts to low seeds, he avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup vs the 19' Warriors and 04' Pistons
Lebron fans can only cling to his manufactured Finals-appearances, which began with his "decision" to form a super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning.. before that, he was a 1-trick pony like Iverson, Dwight and Kidd with only 1 Finals appearance from a weak conference.... This is the historical record, not my opinion
SouBeachTalents
03-28-2021, 05:03 PM
The problem is that MJ fans provide many facts like meeting the preseason odds expectation, or #1 offenses with less offensive help, or superior production rate, or superior winning
And you provide no facts - you just say lebron is goat with zero facts or evidence.. when pressed for evidence, you provide inferior accomplishment as evidence or meaningless longevity feats.
Secondly, nearly all teams made the playoffs in the 80's (16 of 23 teams), compared to only half the teams in today's game.. So weak teams like Jordan's were forced into the playoffs as low seeds, while lebron's weakest teams avoided 8 vs 1 matchups against the 19 Warriors or 04' Pistons.
Ultimately, Lebron only made the playoffs with developed high seeds, and failed 3 times to carry actual lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the Playoffs (04', 05', 19').. by failing to carry lottery casts to low seeds, he avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup vs the 19' Warriors and 04' Pistons
Lebron fans can only cling to his manufactured Finals-appearances, which began with his "decision" to form a super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning.. before that, he was a 1-trick pony like Iverson, Dwight and Kidd with only 1 Finals appearance from a weak conference.... This is the historical record, not my opinion
Jordan never had a winning record without Pippen, while Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins immediately after Jordan retired... This is the historical record, not my opinion
Ainosterhaspie
03-28-2021, 05:05 PM
@3ball
I didn't say anything about LeBron being the GOAT in this thread did I. If you're going to quote me, you should address what I said instead of talking about a bunch of things I didn't say. The point I'm making is that preseason odds is a crappy metric. I'm not weighing in on the GOAT debate.
3ball
03-28-2021, 11:38 PM
Jordan never had a winning record without Pippen, while Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins immediately after Jordan retired... This is the historical record, not my opinion
Lebron didn't make the playoffs until he had a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, and acquired a 22/6/5 first-team defender
So by comparison, rookie Pippen is no help
and as usual, you present lebron's inferior achievement as superior
Jordan never had a winning record without Pippen, while Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins immediately after Jordan retired... This is the historical record, not my opinion
Should I post the offensive stats of rookie Pippen or 90' Pippen?...
They get crushed by Zydrunas, Hughes, Mo, and Jamison, while the Cavs had better defenses (90' bulls had #19 defense)
Indeed, 05-10' Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball than 85-90' Jordan, yet Jordan nearly beat the champs, while Lebron was swept (07'), lottery (05'), or lost as the favorite (09' and 10')..
kawhileonard2
03-28-2021, 11:56 PM
MJ in NBA Finals:
1-0 against Magic
1-0 against Clyde
1-0 against Barkley
1-0 against Payton
2-0 against Malone
Lebron in NBA Finals
0-1 against Dirk
1-2 against Duncan
1-2 against Durant
1-3 against Curry
1-1 against Kawhi(5-7 on individual games)
Hot take.
What a post!:cheers:
kawhileonard2
03-28-2021, 11:59 PM
Can never award someone for embarrassing America in the olympics like Lebron did.
@3ball
I didn't say anything about LeBron being the GOAT in this thread did I. If you're going to quote me, you should address what I said instead of talking about a bunch of things I didn't say. The point I'm making is that preseason odds is a crappy metric. I'm not weighing in on the GOAT debate.
He has a hard time comprehending the opinions of those who respect the mighty king kong as the goat.
3ball
03-29-2021, 12:43 AM
@3ball
I didn't say anything about LeBron being the GOAT in this thread did I. If you're going to quote me, [SIZE=4]you should address/SIZE] what I said instead of talking about a bunch of things I didn't say. The point I'm making is that preseason odds is a crappy metric. I'm not weighing in on the GOAT debate.
There's nothing to address because you dissed preseason odds by pointing out exceptions, but the reality is that it's perfectly legitimate for MJ fans to provide many facts like meeting the preseason odds expectation, or #1 offenses with less offensive help, or superior production rate, or superior winning
Otoh, you provide no facts - you just say lebron is goat with zero facts or evidence.. when pressed for evidence, you provide inferior accomplishment as evidence or meaningless longevity feats.
Secondly, nearly all teams made the playoffs in the 80's (16 of 23 teams), compared to only half the teams in today's game.. So weak teams like Jordan's were forced into the playoffs as low seeds, while lebron's weakest teams avoided 8 vs 1 matchups against the 19 Warriors or 04' Pistons.
Ultimately, Lebron only made the playoffs with developed high seeds, and failed 3 times to carry actual lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to the Playoffs (04', 05', 19').. by failing to carry lottery casts to low seeds, he avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup vs the 19' Warriors and 04' Pistons
Lebron fans can only cling to his manufactured Finals-appearances, which began with his "decision" to form a super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning.. before that, he was a 1-trick pony like Iverson, Dwight and Kidd with only 1 Finals appearance from a weak conference.... This is the historical record, not my opinion
Ainosterhaspie
03-29-2021, 01:50 AM
If there's nothing to address then silence is a better response than veering off topic as you have chosen to do here. Well first you veered off topic by slaying staw man arguments I didn't make, now you're just repeating yourself. Maybe if you repeat the same irrelevant jargon I'll be tempted to chase off down your rabbit trail instead of talking about whether preseason odds are a good metric. That's the topic at hand. I'll stick to that, but if you have nothing to say on that subject, I suppose repeating yourself a third time is a good way to go. Have at it.
SATAN
03-29-2021, 02:11 AM
Secondly, nearly all teams made the playoffs in the 80's (16 of 23 teams), compared to only half the teams in today's game.. So weak teams like Jordan's were forced into the playoffs
The NBA was gifting MJ more chances at winning and he came up short.
The End.
3ball
03-29-2021, 08:56 AM
The NBA was gifting MJ more chances at winning and he came up short.
The End.
6/15 > 4/365896
LeCola
03-29-2021, 09:19 AM
MJ in NBA Finals:
1-0 against Magic
1-0 against Clyde
1-0 against Barkley
1-0 against Payton
2-0 against Malone
Lebron in NBA Finals
0-1 against Dirk
1-2 against Duncan
1-2 against Durant
1-3 against Curry
1-1 against Kawhi(5-7 on individual games)
Hot take.
http://i.imgur.com/CnIrGBBh.gif
Kiddlovesnets
03-29-2021, 09:25 AM
The NBA was gifting MJ more chances at winning and he came up short.
The End.
Nope, MJ had 6 championship window years and he won in all 6 years, while Lebron had 10 championship window years and he only won 4. Lebron had way more chances to win and he came up short most of the time. It’s not even a debate.
SATAN
03-29-2021, 06:56 PM
1-9 while being gifted free chances that he didn't deserve at all of competing in the playoffs :facepalm
Kiddlovesnets
03-29-2021, 07:16 PM
1-9 while being gifted free chances that he didn't deserve at all of competing in the playoffs :facepalm
Did you even read the first post at all? MJ's teams were projected to be lottery teams, they were so bad that it was a serious accomplishment for MJ to take these bulls to playoffs. Also the Bulls actually went 9-9 with MJ in 1986 regular season, they almost missed the playoffs since they were 21-43 without him. These are NOT championship window years for MJ, the Bulls were not qualified as title contenders. 1-9 is such a weak argument, you are already out of ideas and have nothing valuable to add to the discussion when you are trolling with 1-9.
SATAN
03-29-2021, 07:23 PM
It's everyone else's fault that MJ went 1-9. Got it. :lol
Isn't that the same kind of thing MJ guys claim the LeBron guys say? :facepalm
Did you even read the first post at all? MJ's teams were projected to be lottery teams, they were so bad that it was a serious accomplishment for MJ to take these bulls to playoffs. Also the Bulls actually went 9-9 with MJ in 1986 regular season, they almost missed the playoffs since they were 21-43 without him. These are NOT championship window years for MJ, the Bulls were not qualified as title contenders. 1-9 is such a weak argument, you are already out of ideas and have nothing valuable to add to the discussion when you are trolling with 1-9.
It'd be better if you'd just shut up for being a 'casual'
Kiddlovesnets
03-29-2021, 07:52 PM
It's everyone else's fault that MJ went 1-9. Got it. :lol
Isn't that the same kind of thing MJ guys claim the LeBron guys say? :facepalm
Tbh I don’t have to make excuses for MJ’s earlier years ‘cause he took his teams to surpass the expectation like lebron did in 2007 and 2009. When it comes to this, lebronstans are the kings as they keep making up excuses for his abysmal 4/10 record in NBA finals. Compared to lebron’s excuses, what I said above for MJ was nothing at all.
3ball
03-29-2021, 07:56 PM
It's everyone else's fault that MJ went 1-9. Got it. :lol
Isn't that the same kind of thing MJ guys claim the LeBron guys say? :facepalm
Lebron had 3 teams that won 30-40 games (04/05/19), just like Jordan (85-87')
Lebron is just lucky his low seeds missed the playoffs and avoided the 19' Warriors, while Jordan's low seeds were forced to face dynasties as the 8 seed
Young Lebron only made the playoffs with developed high seeds that included top defenses, the COY, a 2-time all-star, a 1-time all-star, and the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender - that's easily enough to be a top team in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning... And it compares well to Jordan's help during the 1st three-peat.
Lebron had 3 teams that won 30-40 games (04/05/19), just like Jordan (85-87')
Lebron is just lucky his low seeds missed the playoffs and avoided the 19' Warriors, while Jordan's low seeds were forced to face dynasties as the 8 seed
Young Lebron only made the playoffs with developed high seeds that included top defenses, the COY, a 2-time all-star, a 1-time all-star, and the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender - that's easily enough to be a top team in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning... And it compares well to Jordan's help during the 1st three-peat.
Casual
3ball
03-29-2021, 07:58 PM
Casual
Everyone that isn't a player, coach, or executive are casual fans. That includes you, me, and the media
Kiddlovesnets
03-29-2021, 07:59 PM
Lebron had 3 teams that won 30-40 games (04/05/19), just like Jordan (85-87')
Lebron is just lucky his low seeds missed the playoffs and avoided the 19' Warriors, while Jordan's low seeds were forced to face dynasties as the 8 seed
Young Lebron only made the playoffs with developed high seeds that included top defenses, the COY, a 2-time all-star, a 1-time all-star, and the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender - that's easily enough to be a top team in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning... And it compares well to Jordan's help during the 1st three-peat.
Yeah and it’s so funny that lebronstans kept talking about 1-9 without any mentions of their idol missing playoffs in 3 years of his career. MJ has higher ceiling(6/6 > 4/10) and higher floor(3 first round exit > 3 missed playoffs), this isnt even a contest.
Everyone that isn't a player, coach, or executive are casual fans. That includes you, me, and the media
Nope, only mj stans are fyfi.
8Ball
03-30-2021, 07:37 AM
Pre season odds are useless.
What is Jordan's odds of winning a playoff game without Pippen?
1-9
No one has had an answer to this in this thread.
Right as usual.
8Ball
03-30-2021, 07:38 AM
1-9 while being gifted free chances that he didn't deserve at all of competing in the playoffs :facepalm
Jordan doesn't get passed the 1st round without Pippen.
Can't even win 50 games without Pippen.
Jordan is just a rich man's Kyrie Irving.
8Ball
03-30-2021, 07:40 AM
Did you even read the first post at all? MJ's teams were projected to be lottery teams, they were so bad that it was a serious accomplishment for MJ to take these bulls to playoffs. Also the Bulls actually went 9-9 with MJ in 1986 regular season, they almost missed the playoffs since they were 21-43 without him. These are NOT championship window years for MJ, the Bulls were not qualified as title contenders. 1-9 is such a weak argument, you are already out of ideas and have nothing valuable to add to the discussion when you are trolling with 1-9.
They are projected lottery teams because Jordan doesn't make his teammates better.
LeBron plays with a 20 win team and takes them to 66 and 62 wins.
Jordan gets the 8th seed and gets swept first round 3 years in a row.
Embarrassing.
Kiddlovesnets
03-30-2021, 11:04 AM
They are projected lottery teams because Jordan doesn't make his teammates better.
LeBron plays with a 20 win team and takes them to 66 and 62 wins.
Jordan gets the 8th seed and gets swept first round 3 years in a row.
Embarrassing.
Nope the pre-season odds are projections only based on the raw talent of each team, it doesnt take into account for other things like team chemistry and tactics. MJ's Bulls in his first 3 years were just notoriously bad as they were expected to miss the playoffs, MJ was the reason they were in first round. For your reference, Lebron's Cavs missed playoffs during his first 2 years, and now you are speaking of making teammates better?
8Ball
03-30-2021, 11:26 AM
Jordan's talent isn't good enough to lift below average teammates to more than 8 seed on his own.
Not LeBron's fault pre season vegas odds makers don't value Jordan highly.
LeBron with garbage teammates in 2009 and 2010 did more than Jordan ever could do with identical talent.
Jordan made the playoffs winning 30 games. That was how easy it was back then to make playoffs.
Kiddlovesnets
03-30-2021, 11:28 AM
Jordan's talent isn't good enough to lift below average teammates to more than 8 seed on his own.
And Lebron's talent wasnt even enough to lift a lottery team to make the playoffs, hence why he missed out playoffs in 2004, 2005 and 2019. Thanks to Larry Hughs, Lebron finally made it to the playoffs in his 3rd year.
:cheers:
light
03-30-2021, 11:33 AM
This is poor analysis.
This isn't MJ vs LeBron, this is mostly MJ, Pippen and Phil Jackson versus LeBron.
You do not have any data for a Michael Jordan in LeBron's situations after Pippen and Jackson appear.
You're also not factoring in the watered down 90's. LeBron has been battling multiple dynasties.
Kiddlovesnets
03-30-2021, 11:36 AM
This is poor analysis.
This isn't MJ vs LeBron, this is mostly MJ, Pippen and Phil Jackson versus LeBron.
You do not have any data for a Michael Jordan in LeBron's situations after Pippen and Jackson appear.
So why couldnt Larry Hughs become Lebron's Pippen, and why couldnt Erik Spolestra become Lebron's Phil Jackson? Perhaps you should ask yourself this question why Lebron was never able to accomplish with his teammates and coaches, its always him taking all the spotlight as if everyone was holding him back.
SATAN
03-30-2021, 07:56 PM
They literally were not capable. :facepalm
MJ stans now comparing Larry Hughs to Pippen. :oldlol:
Just when you think they can't go any lower. You can't make this shit up.
Kiddlovesnets
03-30-2021, 08:12 PM
They literally were not capable. :facepalm
MJ stans now comparing Larry Hughs to Pippen. :oldlol:
Just when you think they can't go any lower. You can't make this shit up.
Hughs in his last 2 seasons before joining up with Lebron in Cavs, were comparable to Pippen before 1991. Yet Pippen flourished with MJ ‘cause the latter was willing to share the ball, while lebron’s ball dominant playing style effectively destroyed Hughs. But anyway, this is a much better argument than 1-9 which is utter nonsense, you can’t honestly believe losing in the first round is worse than not making playoffs.
:facepalm
Kiddlovesnets
04-02-2021, 04:37 AM
I've done a new analysis on the validity of Pre-season odds as predictive power for the winners of each NBA season during the past 20 years, in comparison with regular season champions, here's my result:
https://i.ibb.co/5jDdbxv/PS-vs-RS.png
https://i.ibb.co/ZzjGK09/PS-vs-RS-legends.png
As evident from the chart, pre-season favorites have significantly higher chance to win NBA titles compared to regular season champions(10-6). Pre-season favorites also dominated the matchups against regular season champions(6-3), and the disparity would have been even higher if we discounted the 6 years Lebron was pre-season favorites. Pre-season favorites won 10 out of 20 times, this is 50% probability to win NBA trophy and the chance is actually very high to justify its predictive power since this aint a two horses race like finals series, we have usually at least 4-5 teams in championship window at the beginning of each season. In contrast, the regular season champions have won merely 30% of the NBA titles, which further demonstrates that playoffs and regular seasons are very different games.
I havent done the same analysis for other scenarios such as chance to make finals and conference finals, but its rather clear that pre-season odds as metrics of ranking each team's raw talent, is a very good metric to determine the winner of NBA champions. The fact that pre-season favorites usually beat regular season champions in their head to head matchups, is yet another concrete proof that playoffs are more about the talents on rosters than good coaching/teamwork. When theres a talent disparity, a well coached team in the right system can usually overcome this in regular season, but in playoffs they will fall short(ie. 2015 Hawks and 2016 Warriors) to the more talented teams.
Note my analysis only covers the recent 20 years, though I can make it further to 1984(first year that pre-season odds data became available). I think back in the 80s and 90s, the regular season champions won the titles more often than the recent 20 years. What is clear is that, since this century the regular season games became more and more meaningless, teams are using regular season as playing ground to test different line-ups, tactics and player developments rather than actually competing for better records.
Interestingly, Lebron won half of the time as pre-season favorites, which isnt terribly bad compared to the league average(10 out of 20), but this is quite underwhelming if we compare him to MJ who was undefeated(100%) when favored by pre-season odds. Of course Lebron is great and clearly a top 5 player of all time, but MJ is just on a different level. MJ never lost when his teams were good enough to contend and win, Lebron could only win half of the time or less.
TheGoatest
04-02-2021, 05:02 AM
:oldlol: @ me demolishing this scrub in the other thread triggering him enough to bump his own thread, where he even had the last reply. Must've been fuming as he was writing that wall of text. FUMING. :oldlol:
Kiddlovesnets
04-02-2021, 10:55 AM
:oldlol: @ me demolishing this scrub in the other thread triggering him enough to bump his own thread, where he even had the last reply. Must've been fuming as he was writing that wall of text. FUMING. :oldlol:
Not really though, I posted this earlier on RealGM as a response to someone on the predictive power of preseason odds vs regular season records, and my analysis shows that pre-season favorites have significantly higher chances to win the NBA title compared to regular season champion. I just simply posted the same content from RealGM.
Hey Yo
04-02-2021, 11:31 AM
Nope the pre-season odds are projections only based on the raw talent of each team, it doesnt take into account for other things like team chemistry and tactics. MJ's Bulls in his first 3 years were just notoriously bad as they were expected to miss the playoffs, MJ was the reason they were in first round. For your reference, Lebron's Cavs missed playoffs during his first 2 years, and now you are speaking of making teammates better?
Bulls only needed 30 wins to get into the playoffs in 1986. LeBron's Cavs would have made the playoffs his first 2 years if only 30 wins were needed.
Fail again on your part.
Kiddlovesnets
04-02-2021, 11:33 AM
Bulls only needed 30 wins to get into the playoffs in 1986.
Actually the team went 9-9 with MJ, so they would've easily won 40+ games had MJ not been injured. They only won 30 games because MJ sat out 64 games due to injuries.
Hey Yo
04-02-2021, 11:47 AM
Actually the team went 9-9 with MJ, so they would've easily won 40+ games had MJ not been injured. They only won 30 games because MJ sat out 64 games due to injuries.
You just said MJ was the reason they made the playoffs in 1986. They still made it with him missing 64gms cause only 30 wins was needed. Highly doubt Cavs make playoffs either year if James missed 64gms each season.
Only on ISH and ESPN do I see a strong push for Lebron to be GOAT. Elsewhere, talking to reasonable fans, it has always been Jordan. Or if not Jordan, cases would be made for Jabbar. But not Lebron. Lebron is in the talks for certain, but trashing Jordan and others are not needed. In ISH though, different world.
Kiddlovesnets
04-02-2021, 12:01 PM
You just said MJ was the reason they made the playoffs in 1986. They still made it with him missing 64gms cause only 30 wins was needed. Highly doubt Cavs make playoffs either year if James missed 64gms each season.
Of course he was the reason they made the playoffs, the Bulls were 21-43 without MJ and would have fallen to 10th place in the East if MJ didnt play the 18 games that they went 9-9. The Cavs didnt make the playoffs with Lebron anyway in 2004 and 2005, him missing 64 games would've made them even worse but lets not act like Lebron playing these games changed anything for the playoffs picture.
Only on ISH and ESPN do I see a strong push for Lebron to be GOAT. Elsewhere, talking to reasonable fans, it has always been Jordan. Or if not Jordan, cases would be made for Jabbar. But not Lebron. Lebron is in the talks for certain, but trashing Jordan and others are not needed. In ISH though, different world.
Actually RealGM was the worst at pushing Lebron to GOAT, their voting Lebron as #1 was what inspired my thread:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2007234
Tbh I was really disappointed in RealGM 'cause they aint like ISH. ISH has a lot of trolls, RealGM is known as a serious basketball forum and yet they voted Lebron as GOAT, this is hilarious.
Hey Yo
04-02-2021, 12:07 PM
Of course he was the reason they made the playoffs, the Bulls were 21-43 without MJ and would have fallen to 10th place in the East if MJ didnt play the 18 games that they went 9-9. The Cavs didnt make the playoffs with Lebron anyway in 2004 and 2005, him missing 64 games would've made them even worse but lets not act like Lebron playing these games changed anything for the playoffs picture.
Pure speculation on your part.
Bottom line 30 wins wouldn't have good enough for MJ to make the playoffs in 2004 or 2005.
Kiddlovesnets
04-02-2021, 12:15 PM
Pure speculation on your part.
Bottom line 30 wins wouldn't have good enough for MJ to make the playoffs in 2004 or 2005.
Yes 30 wins wouldnt have been enough in 2004 and 2005, but comparing the absolute numbers of wins in different years is pointless since we wont know how many wins the Bulls would have if they played in 2004/2005. The opponents were very different, they would play 13 wins Hawks and 18 wins Bobcats 4 times in 2005, rather than Celtics superteams 6 times. So what you are saying is pure speculation too, I can easily make an argument that, they would've won 40 games in 2004 and 45 games in 2005, theres no way either of us can convince each other anyway.
Ainosterhaspie
04-02-2021, 12:26 PM
Not really though, I posted this earlier on RealGM as a response to someone on the predictive power of preseason odds vs regular season records, and my analysis shows that pre-season favorites have significantly higher chances to win the NBA title compared to regular season champion. I just simply posted the same content from RealGM.
Nope. Go read my post again. That's not what I said there. I said preseason odds going back to 86 (would have gone back to 85, but it was split prediction with 2 teams that year) get the champion wrong more often than they get it right. I said nothing about regular season records. You just picked that to compare and make your method look good, by comparing to something that does an even worse job at predicting champion. Saying look, there's a worse way to do it, isn't an argument that yours is good.
It's an argument that the other is bad. But your point isn't that preseason odds do a good job of predicting champions, your point is that they are an accurate measure of talent. You continue to fail to provide any argument or evidence in support of that contention, choosing instead to simply repeat it over and over again. In simple terms your are saying "I'm right because I say so".
Kiddlovesnets
04-02-2021, 12:30 PM
Nope. Go read my post again. That's not what I said there. I said preseason odds going back to 86 (would have gone back to 85, but it was split prediction with 2 teams that year) get the champion wrong more often than they get it right. I said nothing about regular season records. You just picked that to compare and make your method look good, by comparing to something that does an even worse job at predicting champion. Saying look, there's a worse way to do it, isn't an argument that yours is good.
It's an argument that the other is bad. But your point isn't that preseason odds do a good job of predicting champions, your point is that they are an accurate measure of talent. You continue to fail to provide any argument or evidence in support of that contention, choosing instead to simply repeat it over and over again. In simple terms your are saying "I'm right because I say so".
I think I shouldnt have replied to you, its the other poster(think it is the user sansterre) who was arguing with me on the predictive power of pre-season odds vs regular season records. Sorry about that, seems I barked on the wrong tree.
But anyway pre-season odds are based on the team's raw talents since they do not take accounts of other factors such as team chemistry, coaching, injuries, recent forms, mid-season trades. If you use other metrics, such as mid-season odds or finals odds, these already consider many other influencing factors and they will do a much worse job measuring the talent level on the teams rosters.
Ainosterhaspie
04-02-2021, 12:49 PM
Ok, but all those things you list that they don't take into account are the things that end up determining who wins the title. It doesn't matter if you're the more talented team based on your preseason roster if you lose players to injuries during the playoffs. That negates whatever validity and predictive power the odds may have originally had. If one assumes that the odds really do effectively indicate talent levels, that still says very little beyond the particular moment in time when they were made. Yes there are plenty of seasons where the top team doesn't suffer injuries and there is no scrappy newcomer no one expected, so its not like the odds have no validity, it's just that when the unexpected occurs, the prediction becomes suspect.
mehyaM24
04-02-2021, 01:17 PM
regular-season & playoff odds > preseason odds. the season is fluid with teams tweaking their personnel.
same reason brooklyn are now favorites according to vegas.
Kiddlovesnets
04-02-2021, 01:19 PM
regular-season & playoff odds > preseason odds.
same reason brooklyn are now favorites according to vegas.
Did you not see the new chart I posted? It shows clearly that pre-season favorites have significantly higher chance to win the title than regular season champions:
https://i.ibb.co/5jDdbxv/PS-vs-RS.png
mehyaM24
04-02-2021, 01:22 PM
regular-season "champ" =/= vegas favorite. not sure why you think there's a correlation there.
Only on ISH and ESPN do I see a strong push for Lebron to be GOAT. Elsewhere, talking to reasonable fans, it has always been Jordan. Or if not Jordan, cases would be made for Jabbar. But not Lebron. Lebron is in the talks for certain, but trashing Jordan and others are not needed. In ISH though, different world.
Yep, it seems the average age of posters itb is really 12 or something like that. Can't understand if they're just plain immature or stubborn idiots who refuse to respect one of them in topics that talk about those two. And it's also kinda funny we have a renowned troll here who would call you and the others casual, brainwashed or delusional if you guys respect jordan more as the goat. But imho tho, it's better to think that they're both goats of the respective decades they played in.
ArbitraryWater
04-02-2021, 07:41 PM
I think this season is basically a good example why preseason odds are meaningless
SATAN
04-02-2021, 07:42 PM
Only on ISH and ESPN do I see a strong push for Lebron to be GOAT. Elsewhere, talking to reasonable fans, it has always been Jordan. Or if not Jordan, cases would be made for Jabbar. But not Lebron. Lebron is in the talks for certain, but trashing Jordan and others are not needed. In ISH though, different world.
MJ stans started it all. They couldn't stand seeing LeBron gaining success and trashed him relentlessly. I've never seen anything like it. MJ and the stans that seem to literally worship him deserve everything thrown at them.
SATAN
04-02-2021, 07:44 PM
I think this season is basically a good example why preseason odds are meaningless
He keeps saying Lakers have been the favorites because he's scared of the Nets getting destroyed/choking.
Kiddlovesnets
04-03-2021, 12:22 PM
MJ stans started it all. They couldn't stand seeing LeBron gaining success and trashed him relentlessly. I've never seen anything like it. MJ and the stans that seem to literally worship him deserve everything thrown at them.
Nah Lebronstans started it, you apparently skipped all these nonsense from scuzzy, the goatest, lebron23 etc. It was originally kobestans vs lebronstans(and Id admit I was rooting for Lebronstans back then since it was obvious that Lebron already surpassed Kobe, now I kinda regret since they are shamelessly defaming MJ), but then the latter decided that Lebron should challenge MJ for the throne, except hes nowhere close.
2much_knowledge
04-16-2021, 01:13 PM
The goat standard :cheers:
The goat standart, playing a shit ton more, with more help and lose more and be half as accomplished. Makes sense lol
3ba11
01-16-2022, 03:54 PM
No one would talk about Lebron's Finals comp if the 2016 Finals was a meeting of 2 titans with close odds
But instead, Lebron's preseason favorite fell to massive Finals underdog, and then his fans complained about Finals comp..
This type of fraud is typical of Lebron's career because his resume would be shit without forming super-teams in a conference that Dwight was winning by himself, along with other 1-star teams (Iverson, Kidd).
HighFlyer23
01-16-2022, 04:03 PM
No one would talk about Lebron's Finals comp if the 2016 Finals was a meeting of 2 titans with close odds
But instead, Lebron's preseason favorite fell to massive Finals underdog, and then his fans complained about Finals comp..
This type of fraud is typical of Lebron's career because his resume would be shit without forming super-teams in a conference that Dwight was winning by himself, along with other 1-star teams (Iverson, Kidd).
STFU you stupid sack of shit
Spurs m8
01-16-2022, 04:09 PM
STFU you stupid sack of shit
I know, the truth hurts with LeBarry.
3ba11
09-20-2023, 04:54 PM
https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-20-2023/9PqSyN.gif
3ba11
09-20-2023, 06:18 PM
https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-20-2023/9PqSyN.gif
^^^ in order of LEAST defensive attention faced, aka most scoring help
^^^ in order of LEAST defensive attention faced, aka most scoring help
1-9
3ba11
10-31-2024, 07:30 PM
.
.
ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT MJ:
1993' BJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/armstbj01.html#all_per_game_stats)................ .. 4.0
94-96' BJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/armstbj01.html#1994-1996-sum:per_game_stats)................. 3.9 (no MJ)
90-93' Pippen (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game)........... 6.2
94-95' Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game_stats)........... 5.4 (no MJ)
96-98' Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game_stats)........... 5.8
99-03' Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1999-2003-sum:per_game_stats)........... 5.1 (no MJ)
89-93' Horace (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantho01.html#1989-1993-sum:per_game_stats)........... 2.5
94-02' Horace (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantho01.html#1994-2002-sum:per_game_stats)........... 2.3 (no MJ)
90-95' Rodman (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html#1990-1995-sum:per_game_stats)......... 1.7 (no MJ)
96-98' Rodman (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game_stats)......... 2.8
99-00' Rodman (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html#1999-2000-sum:per_game_stats)......... 1.3 (no MJ)
93-94' Longley (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/longllu01.html#1993-1994-sum:per_game_stats).......... 1.2 (no MJ)
96-98' Longley (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/longllu01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game_stats).......... 2.4
99-00' Longley (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/longllu01.html#1999-2000-sum:per_game_stats).......... 1.1 (no MJ)
80-87' Cartwright (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartwbi01.html#1980-1987-sum:per_game_stats)..... 1.6 (no MJ)
89-94' Cartwright (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartwbi01.html#1989-1994-sum:per_game_stats)..... 1.5
^^^MJ's presence clearly increased his teammates' assists.
3ba11
10-31-2024, 07:32 PM
.
.
ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:
12-14' Kyrie (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game_stats)............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
15-17' Kyrie (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:per_game_stats)............... 5.3
18-24' Kyrie (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2018-2024-sum:per_game_stats)............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
04-10' Bosh (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game_stats)............... 2.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Bosh (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game_stats)............... 1.6
15-16' Bosh (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game_stats)............... 2.3 (no Lebron)
11-14' Love (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game_stats)................ 3.0 (no Lebron)
15-18' Love (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2018-sum:per_game_stats)................ 2.1
19-21' Love (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2019-2021-sum:per_game_stats)................ 2.8 (no Lebron)
05-08' Mo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game_stats)................... 5.7 (no Lebron)
09-10' Mo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game_stats)................... 4.6
11-13' Mo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2011-2013-sum:per_game_stats)................... 5.3 (no Lebron)
09-10' Chalmers (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chalmma01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game_stats).......... 4.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Chalmers (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chalmma01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game_stats).......... 3.6
99-04' Snow (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/snower01.html#1999-2004-sum:per_game_stats)................ 6.9 (no Lebron)
06-07' Snow (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/snower01.html#2006-2007-sum:per_game_stats)................ 4.1
01-05' Hughes (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html#2001-2005-sum:per_game_stats)............. 3.8 (no Lebron)
06-08' Hughes (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html#2006-2008-sum:per_game_stats)............. 3.3
2018 Ingram (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html#all_per_game_stats)............... 3.9 (no Lebron)
2019 Ingram (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html#all_per_game_stats)............... 3.0
20-25' Ingram (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html#2020-2025-sum:per_game_stats)............. 5.2 (no Lebron
2019 Kuzma (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01.html#all_per_game_stats)................ 2.5
22-25' Kuzma (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01.html#2022-2025-sum:per_game_stats).............. 3.8 (no Lebron)
2018 Ball (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01.html#all_per_game_stats)................. ... 7.2 (no Lebron)
2019 Ball (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01.html#all_per_game_stats)................. ... 5.4
20-22' Ball (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01.html#2020-2022-sum:per_game_stats).................. 6.1 (no Lebron)
00-09' Jamison (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html#2000-2009-sum:per_game_stats)............ 1.8 (no Lebron)
2010 Jamison (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html#all_per_game_stats).............. 1.3
11-12' Jamison (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html#2011-2012-sum:per_game_stats)............ 1.9 (no Lebron)
04-10' Wade (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game_stats)................ 6.6 (no Lebron)
11-14' Wade (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game_stats)................ 4.7
19-22' D-Lo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russeda01.html#2019-2022-sum:per_game_stats).................. 6.7 (no Lebron)
23-25' D-Lo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russeda01.html#2023-2025-sum:per_game_stats).................. 6.2
09-21' Westbrook (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html#2009-2021-sum:per_game_stats).......... 8.5 (no Lebron)
2022 Westbrook (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html#all_per_game_stats).............7.1
15-18'' KCP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldwke01.html#2015-2018-sum:per_game_stats).................. 2.0 (no Lebron)
19-21' KCP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldwke01.html#2019-2021-sum:per_game_stats)................... 1.6
22-25' KCP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldwke01.html#2022-2025-sum:per_game_stats)................... 2.2 (no Lebron)
Teammates' assists are higher without Lebron, and lower alongside him.. Teammates see lower assists alongside Lebron because Lebron's ball-dominant scoring is assisted at a much lower rate than normal forwards, so teammates have less opportunity to assist alongside Lebron than other teams, while also being in spot-up roles more often alongside Lebron's high volume of unassisted buckets.. Lebron's lowering of teammate assists isn't sufficiently-offset by his own assists to produce a high-assist team.
To summarize - Lebron lowered all his cast-members' assists, with almost no exceptions, while MJ increased all his teammates' assists, with rare exception (see previous post)... Since teammates saw higher assists alongside MJ, we know that MJ's assists weren't offseting a teammate reduction like Lebron, so high-assist teams and strategy were possible with MJ's skillset.
Ultimately, high assist teams are possible with highly-assisted skillsets like Curry, Duncan, Kobe, Kareem, Russell - all the dynasties... Otoh, Lebron's abnormally-low assisted rates and lowering of teammates assists (imposing spot-up roles) represents a weaker brand of ball that underachieves favored rosters, such as losing 7 times with the preseason favorite.. The common thread in Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is deficits in team assists, and normally massive deficits.
3ba11
11-19-2024, 02:42 PM
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Thread Cliffs
A player who barely won 50 games with Kyrie/Love, and won 60 games once in 7 seasons with 2 all-star teammates (11-17'), and routinely underachieves favored talent by losing more than anyone ever has with preseason favorites or Finals teams, and has perennially-needy and struggling teams despite stacked casts cannot be #2 all-time, or anywhere near.
The #2 player all-time would have at least 7 titles in Lebron's shoes and likely 8 or 9.. That's how much help Lebron had... With that being said, no one wants the truth anymore - they just want entertainment and are happy to be fed lies - so enjoy your fraud that mostly loses, regardless of cast, and has a skillset that yields the neediest and most underachieving teams ever.
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