97-98 Jordan vs. 19-20 Lebron Comparison: Age 35

[dankok8]

Micheal Jordan:

RS: 28.7 ppg, 5.8 rpg (1.6 orpg), 3.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.5 bpg on 53.3 %TS (+0.9 rTS) with 2.3 topg in 38.8 mpg

PS: 32.4 ppg, 5.1 rpg (1.6 orpg), 3.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.6 bpg on 54.5 %TS (+2.1 rTS) with 2.1 topg in 41.5 mpg

F: 33.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg (1.5 orpg), 2.3 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.7 bpg on 51.6 %TS (-0.8 rTS) with 1.7 topg in 41.6 mpg

RS MVP
Finals MVP
1st Team All-NBA
1st Team All-Defense
Scoring Champion



Lebron James:

RS: 25.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg (1.0 orpg), 10.2 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.5 bpg on 57.7 %TS (+1.2 rTS) with 3.9 topg in 34.6 mpg

PS: 27.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg (1.3 orpg), 8.8 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.8 bpg on 64.7 %TS (+8.2 rTS) with 4.0 topg in 36.3 mpg

F: 29.8 ppg, 11.8 rpg (2.0 orpg), 8.5 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.5 bpg on 67.1 %TS (+10.6 rTS) with 3.5 topg in 39.4 mpg

2nd in RS MVP Voting
Finals MVP
1st Team All-NBA
Assist Champion

[999Guy]

For a guy convinced Jordan was clearly better you are so obsessed with comparing these players

You do realize I already know your opinion on these seasons without you saying it?

[Walk on Water]

Also, Jordan had to come back from baseball. Lebron never played another sport in between his runs.

[mehyaM24]

lebron was significantly more efficient, a better defender & much better playmaker

op's breakdown doesn't even include their respective impact value. e.g. per,winshares,gamescore,bpm etc. all which are CLEARLY in lebron's favor.

playoff lebron >>>

[3ball]

Lebron has low assist creation compared to MJ, Kobe, KD, Kawhi, Bird, etc because he doesn't create assists for teammates by being an assist target (off-ball).

Otoh, guys like MJ, Bird, and company created more assists by distributing and creating assists for teammates (being an assist target, aka off-ball).

So they had higher TEAM assists and a better ball movement brand that yielded better team ceilings/Finals record.


TLDR - individual assists mean little compared to team assists or team offense, which are impacted more by scoring ability/diversity... Ultimately, individual scoring > individual assists generally

[RRR3]

LeBron was massively better in the playoffs. It’s clearly LeBron.

[dankok8]

Unlike their peaks where MJ is considerably better, this comparison can go either way. That's why it makes for a compelling thread. Here is my take on the playoff numbers comparison although similar trends exist for the regular season.

MJ does have 6.1% better relative efficiency than MJ which is no small matter but Lebron also has 1.9 turnovers more. Knowing that turnovers are more costly than missed shots and that each missed shot causes about 4-5% in efficiency drop MJ was slightly more efficient with the ball. It comes down to 4.8 extra PPG for MJ vs. 5.3 extra APG for Jordan. The PPG are worth more but it's close enough that Lebron does have a case. However Lebron did not face any top 10 defensive team in the playoffs while MJ faced two.

Defensively MJ was better but defense on the perimeter is not a huge factor.

I personally would take MJ overall but I do see an argument for the other side. MJ by 1998 had declined much more than Lebron by 2020.

[3ball]

LeBron was massively better in the playoffs. It’s clearly LeBron.


Playoffs

20' Davis...'... 29.6 PER
98' Pippen.... 19.5 PER


AD is #1 all-time in Playoff PER and Lebron was the statistical "pippen" to AD in 2020.

Specifically, AD was the Playoff scoring champ and MVP against Denver in the "real" Finals, while also leading the Lakers in win contribution (WS/48).

Otoh, Pippen was horrific in the 98' ECF and Finals, which forced complete carry-jobs from Jordan (standard), which included setting the record for clutch points (last 5 within 5).

Jordan is the only top 10 player that won most of his rings with a true 2nd option who had a low statistical peak and always averaged far less, while everyone else enjoyed elite 1st option sidekicks, FMVP's or equal-scoring partners as sidekick.

Again, equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career.. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

[Axe]

Who carried who better between the two?

[RRR3]

Playoffs

20' Davis...'... 29.6 PER
98' Pippen.... 19.5 PER


AD is #1 all-time in Playoff PER and Lebron was the statistical "pippen" to AD in 2020.

Specifically, AD was the Playoff scoring champ and MVP against Denver in the "real" Finals, while also leading the Lakers in win contribution (WS/48).

Otoh, Pippen was horrific in the 98' ECF and Finals, which forced complete carry-jobs from Jordan (standard), which included setting the record for clutch points (last 5 within 5).

Jordan is the only top 10 player that won most of his rings with a true 2nd option who had a low statistical peak and always averaged far less, while everyone else enjoyed elite 1st option sidekicks, FMVP's or equal-scoring partners as sidekick.

Again, equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career.. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).
LeBron made AD better. MJ made Pippen worse.

LeBron>>>

[3ball]

LeBron made AD better. MJ made Pippen worse.

LeBron>>>


AD was already outperforming Lebron in 2018, when he was competitive with the Warriors, while Lebron was destroyed by record amount

So AD was already a superstar before lebron, whereas Jordan turned Pippen from a single-digit rookie to HOF

Heck, everyone witnessed the 1-year drop in Ingram's PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 alongside LeCancer.

Imagine if Pippen played with Lebron - aka zero rings and Pippen is probably traded like Hughes, Ingram, or IT... Yikes

[DoctorP]

post videos. these numbers are annoying

[3ball]

.
We need stats for:


* percentage of team points scored (burden)

* clutch points (last 5 within 5)

* league pace and DRTG

[ShawkFactory]

AD was already outperforming Lebron in 2018, when he was competitive with the Warriors, while Lebron was destroyed by record amount

So AD was already a superstar before lebron, whereas Jordan turned Pippen from a single-digit rookie to HOF

Heck, everyone witnessed the 1-year drop in Ingram's PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 alongside LeCancer.

Imagine if Pippen played with Lebron - aka zero rings and Pippen is probably traded like Hughes, Ingram, or IT... Yikes
:lol

[mehyaM24]

Unlike their peaks where MJ is considerably better, this comparison can go either way. That's why it makes for a compelling thread. Here is my take on the playoff numbers comparison although similar trends exist for the regular season.

MJ does have 6.1% better relative efficiency than MJ which is no small matter but Lebron also has 1.9 turnovers more. Knowing that turnovers are more costly than missed shots and that each missed shot causes about 4-5% in efficiency drop MJ was slightly more efficient with the ball. It comes down to 4.8 extra PPG for MJ vs. 5.3 extra APG for Jordan. The PPG are worth more but it's close enough that Lebron does have a case. However Lebron did not face any top 10 defensive team in the playoffs while MJ faced two.

Defensively MJ was better but defense on the perimeter is not a huge factor.

I personally would take MJ overall but I do see an argument for the other side. MJ by 1998 had declined much more than Lebron by 2020.

even that is arguable though. certain numbers favor lebron whereas other ones do jordan. the fact your OP is "close" without the impact data is telling. if we omit the maincourse lebron still has better playoff numbers. with it though? its a clean sweep for lebron.


post videos. these numbers are annoying


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPBWje2kJ_U

look at the movement and change of pace from lebron in these clips. jordan was on the brink of retirement(or "running on fumes" as bob costas once put it) whereas lebron showed signs he was still in his prime. to be sure, he definitely wasn't but there were glimpses. combine all of that with lebron's superior efficiency and playmaking, the comparison isn't as close as some lead on.

[3ball]

:lol


AD won a game from the Warriors, while Lebron was beaten by record amount.

So AD was already a superstar before lebron, whereas Jordan turned Pippen from a single-digit rookie to HOF

Heck, everyone witnessed the 1-year drop in Ingram's PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 alongside LeCancer.

Imagine if Pippen played with Lebron - aka zero rings and Pippen is probably traded like Hughes, Ingram, or IT... Yikes

[ShawkFactory]

AD won a game from the Warriors, while Lebron was beaten by record amount.

So AD was already a superstar before lebron, whereas Jordan turned Pippen from a single-digit rookie to HOF

Heck, everyone witnessed the 1-year drop in Ingram's PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 alongside LeCancer.

Imagine if Pippen played with Lebron - aka zero rings and Pippen is probably traded like Hughes, Ingram, or IT... Yikes

Lemarcus Aldridge took a game off them too. Supastar

[Axe]

AD won a game from the Warriors, while Lebron was beaten by record amount.

So AD was already a superstar before lebron, whereas Jordan turned Pippen from a single-digit rookie to HOF

Heck, everyone witnessed the 1-year drop in Ingram's PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 alongside LeCancer.

Imagine if Pippen played with Lebron - aka zero rings and Pippen is probably traded like Hughes, Ingram, or IT... Yikes
Yup, ad won more playoff series without bran than your hero ever did without pippen.

We get the idea. Now..

Foxtrot
Oscar
Hotel

[3ball]

even that is arguable though. certain numbers favor lebron whereas other ones do jordan. the fact your OP is "close" without the impact data is telling. if we omit that lebron still has better playoff numbers. with it though? its a clean sweep for lebron.





Guys like MJ, Bird, and company created more assists overall by distributing and creating assists for teammates (being an assist target, aka off-ball).

So they had higher team assists and a better ball movement brand that yielded better team ceilings/Finals record.







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPBWje2kJ_U

look at the movement and change of pace from lebron in these clips. jordan was on the brink of retirement whereas lebron showed signs he was still in his prime. to be sure, he definitely wasn't but there were glimpses. combine all of that with lebron's superior efficiency and playmaking, the comparison isn't as close as some lead on.


Lebron has inferior team offense

So his "superior playmaking" is an inferior offensive strategy required to suit Lebron's skillset restriction to ball-dominance and non-elite jumpshooting skill..

[mehyaM24]

Lebron has inferior team offense

So his "superior playmaking" is an inferior offensive strategy required to suit Lebron's skillset restriction to ball-dominance and non-elite jumpshooting skill..

lebron led the lakers to a title & won fmvp. he also did it by producing better impact numbers than jordan.

sounds like the strategy worked out great!

[3ball]

lebron led the lakers to a title & won fmvp. he also did it by producing better impact numbers than jordan.

sounds like the strategy worked out great!


He was a Pippen to AD, especially in the real Finals against Denver

That doesn't compare to Jordan's 6 carry-jobs

[Axe]

He was a Pippen to AD, especially in the real Finals against Denver
Apparently you think those players are not better than mo williams too, right?

[DoctorP]

even that is arguable though. certain numbers favor lebron whereas other ones do jordan. the fact your OP is "close" without the impact data is telling. if we omit the maincourse lebron still has better playoff numbers. with it though? its a clean sweep for lebron.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPBWje2kJ_U

look at the movement and change of pace from lebron in these clips. jordan was on the brink of retirement(or "running on fumes" as bob costas once put it) whereas lebron showed signs he was still in his prime. to be sure, he definitely wasn't but there were glimpses. combine all of that with lebron's superior efficiency and playmaking, the comparison isn't as close as some lead on.

wheres the Jordan vids?

[mehyaM24]

He was a Pippen to AD, especially in the real Finals against Denver

that definitely isn't true. like jordan, ad had worse playoff numbers than lebron. ditto in the finals which is why lebron was awarded a finals mvp.

miami also eliminated milwaukee who was better than denver. so no, the real finals WAS the finals.


wheres the Jordan vids?

on youtube. feel free to look them up.

[ShawkFactory]

He was a Pippen to AD, especially in the real Finals against Denver

The Heat took the Lakers to 6 games, while the Nuggets only went to 5. Thus, Heat > Nuggets and the real finals were the actual finals.

[DoctorP]

that definitely isn't true. like jordan, ad had worse playoff numbers than lebron. ditto in the finals which is why lebron was awarded a finals mvp.

miami also eliminated milwaukee who was better than denver. so no, the real finals WAS the finals.



on youtube. feel free to look them up.

no time.

[SATAN]

OP puts in a lot of effort trying to hide the fact he is a troll. It's very strange.

[3ball]

Apparently you think those players are not better than mo williams too, right?


Lebron and AD got equal PER's, while Jordan's was nearly 10 points higher than Pippen

So Jordan faced 1-man-team defensive coverage and Lebron didn't..

Lebron never got doubled and AD was actually the guy drawing doubles/adjustments.

Ultimately, Pippen's low statistical peak and significant deficit to Jordan in every Playoffs made him a true 2nd option, and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks, equal-scoring partners and FMVP sidekicks that every other top 10 player enjoyed.

And again, equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career.. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

[8Ball]

Micheal Jordan:

RS: 28.7 ppg, 5.8 rpg (1.6 orpg), 3.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.5 bpg on 53.3 %TS (+0.9 rTS) with 2.3 topg in 38.8 mpg

PS: 32.4 ppg, 5.1 rpg (1.6 orpg), 3.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.6 bpg on 54.5 %TS (+2.1 rTS) with 2.1 topg in 41.5 mpg

F: 33.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg (1.5 orpg), 2.3 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.7 bpg on 51.6 %TS (-0.8 rTS) with 1.7 topg in 41.6 mpg

RS MVP
Finals MVP
1st Team All-NBA
1st Team All-Defense
Scoring Champion



Lebron James:

RS: 25.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg (1.0 orpg), 10.2 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.5 bpg on 57.7 %TS (+1.2 rTS) with 3.9 topg in 34.6 mpg

PS: 27.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg (1.3 orpg), 8.8 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.8 bpg on 64.7 %TS (+8.2 rTS) with 4.0 topg in 36.3 mpg

F: 29.8 ppg, 11.8 rpg (2.0 orpg), 8.5 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.5 bpg on 67.1 %TS (+10.6 rTS) with 3.5 topg in 39.4 mpg

2nd in RS MVP Voting
Finals MVP
1st Team All-NBA
Assist Champion

3.5 assists per game for an entire season. What an embarrassment.

LeBron's finals production blows Jordan out of the water too.

4 rebounds per game and 2 assists per game for Jordan.
12 boards and 9 assists for LeBron.

Doubling or tripling Jordan's production on that front.

[Airupthere]

3.5 assists per game for an entire season. What an embarrassment

Watch the games. He did not bron ball. They played the triangle continuously.

[Kiddlovesnets]

For a guy convinced Jordan was clearly better you are so obsessed with comparing these players

You do realize I already know your opinion on these seasons without you saying it?

Yeah we realize MJ was better, but the delusional lebronstans dont. So its necessary to educate them with facts.
:cheers:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Harder to get efficient numbers then when defenses might've been at their apex.

Mike was the better scorer and probably the more consistent defender. AD took the load off of Lebron on both ends, but Lebron still balled out and played like the best player alive. Tough call. Can't go wrong with either of them, really.

[8Ball]

Watch the games. He did not bron ball. They played the triangle continuously.

Not even in Kobe's worst years did he average just 3.5 assists per game, besides his rookie / 2nd year and Kobe played in the triangle. 3.5 assists per game is ball hog chucking basketball = Carmelo Anthony ball. Melo averaged 3.5 assists per game in his best years.

So Jordan in 1998 played like a worst version than Kobe while LeBron is distributing 10 assists per game like Magic and scoring 30 ppg.

No comparison.

[dankok8]

Someone asked for a 97-98 Jordan video. Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyKrpMnf0Tc


Harder to get efficient numbers then when defenses might've been at their apex.

Mike was the better scorer and probably the more consistent defender. AD took the load off of Lebron on both ends, but Lebron still balled out and played like the best player alive. Tough call. Can't go wrong with either of them, really.

Finally a voice of reason.

I would take MJ but in this debate I can see definitely a case for the other side. That's why I made the thread.

I don't think people realize the NBA at this time was shooting 4% worse and had 10 fewer possessions per game. Teams in 97-98 were averaging 95.6 points per game while team in 19-20 were averaging 111.8 points per game.

[Axe]

Yeah we realize MJ was better, but the delusional lebronstans dont. So its necessary to educate them with facts.
:cheers:
Lmao both stans from both fanbases are horrible and can be hardheaded scumbags at any time, any day.

[light]

Huge difference between the two players though:

LeBron runs both the Lakers offense and defense. Pippen ran the Bulls offense and defense (prepared and initiated the triangle and quarterbacked the defense).

Jordan had less responsibility than LeBron, in other words.

LeBron runs his team, quarterbacks their defense, calls all of their plays, then on top of that he often leads his team in every category like scoring, assists and rebounds.

That puts LeBron on an entirely different level than Jordan at any age.

[scuzzy]

I'm sure Lebron would salivate at the chance for his toughest Finals opposition to be Jeff Hornacek and Byron Russell, 35yo Karl/John


Unfortunately he'll probably be dealt Kevin Durant, James Harden, Kyrie Irving, Blake, DeAndre, Harris.


The GOAT standard :applause:

[Micku]

Harder to get efficient numbers then when defenses might've been at their apex.

Mike was the better scorer and probably the more consistent defender. AD took the load off of Lebron on both ends, but Lebron still balled out and played like the best player alive. Tough call. Can't go wrong with either of them, really.

Not only that. LeBron is playing in a league that best fit his playstyle I would say. Better spacing, less physicality, and small ball. Just less rim protection, you can't bump him as much, and free lane to the rim. There is no big man camping in the paint. And they could foul you a bit harder too.

Credit to him for doing it better than his peers, but MJ didn't have those rules set and defense was super high and pace is really low during the late 90s to mid 00s.

There are advantages and disadvantages for both eras. But I think it's obvious that offense efficiency is definitely with the 19-20 era. It's design that way. Again, not to really discredit LeBron, but it's just the era comparison. This is where stats don't really tell the full story. And LeBron had AD lol

As you said, it's hard to go against either of him. Don't know how MJ would play in 20 era, and vice versa. But I think I would pick Lebron personally at this stage.

[kawhileonard2]

Rule Changes just like in the NFL they made it easier for the QB.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Finally a voice of reason.

I would take MJ but in this debate I can see definitely a case for the other side. That's why I made the thread.

I don't think people realize the NBA at this time was shooting 4% worse and had 10 fewer possessions per game. Teams in 97-98 were averaging 95.6 points per game while team in 19-20 were averaging 111.8 points per game.

Yeah, from 98-2004 teams were lucky to crack 95 a game. It wasn't until about 2006 or 2007 when the league average went up. And has gone up ever since. Another reason why its difficult to compare stats across eras, especially raw numbers.

98 MJ in today's game is arguably the best scorer, and undoubtedly the most reliant one in the playoffs. If you paired him with AD its hard to imagine LA not ringing. More than that its hard to argue Mike wouldn't be more efficient playing next to someone like AD. Whose offensive gravity was stronger than any version of Pippen.


Not only that. LeBron is playing in a league that best fit his playstyle I would say. Better spacing, less physicality, and small ball. Just less rim protection, you can't bump him as much, and free lane to the rim. There is no big man camping in the paint. And they could foul you a bit harder too.
Credit to him for doing it better than his peers, but MJ didn't have those rules set and defense was super high and pace is really low during the late 90s to mid 00s.

There are advantages and disadvantages for both eras. But I think it's obvious that offense efficiency is definitely with the 19-20 era. It's design that way. Again, not to really discredit LeBron, but it's just the era comparison. This is where stats don't really tell the full story. And LeBron had AD lol

As you said, it's hard to go against either of him. Don't know how MJ would play in 20 era, and vice versa. But I think I would pick Lebron personally at this stage.

Good points.

Its why I told dankok that numbers across eras are messy. Throw 20 Bron into a time capsule and have him play in 98. His shooting percentages would drop instantly. Legit bigs and handchecking. Less possessions and a slug pace like you mentioned. He would still be one of the best players, if no the best one, but it would look uglier. And ultimately his game would be less effective.

I'm not convinced Bron has "GOAT longevity" playing in the 90s, but that's another debate :lol Can only go by whose in front of you, and Bron got the job done. All you can do is tip your cap :confusedshrug: Mike's scoring in todays game would be like watching a more fluid and explosive Kawhi. Truth be told Kawhi moves like Wizard's Jordan.

[kawhileonard2]

I'm sure Lebron would salivate at the chance for his toughest Finals opposition to be Jeff Hornacek and Byron Russell, 35yo Karl/John


Unfortunately he'll probably be dealt Kevin Durant, James Harden, Kyrie Irving, Blake, DeAndre, Harris.


The GOAT standard :applause:

Couldn't even win gold with Tim Duncan, Dwyane Wade, Iverson, Melo on the squad and lost to Carlos Arroyo.

[Mr. Woke]

Watch the games. He did not bron ball. They played the triangle continuously.

Cope.

MJ just wasn't a great passer. The triangle hid his deficiencies in that department.

[Mr. Woke]

Not only that. LeBron is playing in a league that best fit his playstyle I would say. Better spacing, less physicality, and small ball. Just less rim protection, you can't bump him as much, and free lane to the rim. There is no big man camping in the paint. And they could foul you a bit harder too.

Credit to him for doing it better than his peers, but MJ didn't have those rules set and defense was super high and pace is really low during the late 90s to mid 00s.

There are advantages and disadvantages for both eras. But I think it's obvious that offense efficiency is definitely with the 19-20 era. It's design that way. Again, not to really discredit LeBron, but it's just the era comparison. This is where stats don't really tell the full story. And LeBron had AD lol

As you said, it's hard to go against either of him. Don't know how MJ would play in 20 era, and vice versa. But I think I would pick Lebron personally at this stage.

The 90s physicality was overrated. It really wasn't more physical than any other era.

Also, Jordan's overall competition in the Finals was not as difficult as the competition that LeBron has had to face.

[Mr. Woke]

Yeah, from 98-2004 teams were lucky to crack 95 a game. It wasn't until about 2006 or 2007 when the league average went up. And has gone up ever since. Another reason why its difficult to compare stats across eras, especially raw numbers.

98 MJ in today's game is arguably the best scorer, and undoubtedly the most reliant one in the playoffs. If you paired him with AD its hard to imagine LA not ringing. More than that its hard to argue Mike wouldn't be more efficient playing next to someone like AD. Whose offensive gravity was stronger than any version of Pippen.



Good points.

Its why I told dankok that numbers across eras are messy. Throw 20 Bron into a time capsule and have him play in 98. His shooting percentages would drop instantly. Legit bigs and handchecking. Less possessions and a slug pace like you mentioned. He would still be one of the best players, if no the best one, but it would look uglier. And ultimately his game would be less effective.

I'm not convinced Bron has "GOAT longevity" playing in the 90s, but that's another debate :lol Can only go by whose in front of you, and Bron got the job done. All you can do is tip your cap :confusedshrug: Mike's scoring in todays game would be like watching a more fluid and explosive Kawhi. Truth be told Kawhi moves like Wizard's Jordan.

Handchecking would only help a physical beast like LeBron (also, hand checking has always existed; don't act like it has disappeared).

LeBron would dominate in any era. Don't get it twisted.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Handchecking would only help a physical beast like LeBron (also, hand checking has always existed; don't act like it has disappeared).

LeBron would dominate in any era. Don't get it twisted.

Shut up, fakkot

[dankok8]

Yeah, from 98-2004 teams were lucky to crack 95 a game. It wasn't until about 2006 or 2007 when the league average went up. And has gone up ever since. Another reason why its difficult to compare stats across eras, especially raw numbers.

98 MJ in today's game is arguably the best scorer, and undoubtedly the most reliant one in the playoffs. If you paired him with AD its hard to imagine LA not ringing. More than that its hard to argue Mike wouldn't be more efficient playing next to someone like AD. Whose offensive gravity was stronger than any version of Pippen.



Good points.

Its why I told dankok that numbers across eras are messy. Throw 20 Bron into a time capsule and have him play in 98. His shooting percentages would drop instantly. Legit bigs and handchecking. Less possessions and a slug pace like you mentioned. He would still be one of the best players, if no the best one, but it would look uglier. And ultimately his game would be less effective.

I'm not convinced Bron has "GOAT longevity" playing in the 90s, but that's another debate :lol Can only go by whose in front of you, and Bron got the job done. All you can do is tip your cap :confusedshrug: Mike's scoring in todays game would be like watching a more fluid and explosive Kawhi. Truth be told Kawhi moves like Wizard's Jordan.

Of course numbers are messy comparing across eras. That's why I cite rTS as well which is efficiency relative to league average.
One option is to compare per 75 numbers but the downside of that is it automatically corrects not just for pace but minutes as well.

I totally agree that even 98 MJ is akin to a more explosive Kawhi. I've made a similar comparison myself. I think MJ had a superior motor to Kawhi as well.

[mehyaM24]

posters should use per 100 possession stats. better for cross era debates because they normalize possessions.

bpm-rapm-raptor-per etc. are used frequently in historical, player comparisons. for teams srs is also pretty useful.

[TheGoatest]

I'm sure Lebron would salivate at the chance for his toughest Finals opposition to be Jeff Hornacek and Byron Russell, 35yo Karl/John


Unfortunately he'll probably be dealt Kevin Durant, James Harden, Kyrie Irving, Blake, DeAndre, Harris.


The GOAT standard :applause:

Still can't believe that there was an opponent in an NBA finals where the 2nd leading scorer on a team averaged 10.7 points. On .411 shooting. :roll:
That's terrible even by pre-24 second shot clock standards, when game scores were regularly 52-48 and shyt. :oldlol:

[scuzzy]

Still can't believe that there was an opponent in an NBA finals where the 2nd leading scorer on a team averaged 10.7 points. On .411 shooting. :roll:
That's terrible even by pre-24 second shot clock standards, when game scores were regularly 52-48 and shyt. :oldlol:
Jazz made a whopping total of 13 three pointers across 6 games, combined :lol


13-60 :(

[TheGoatest]

Jazz made a whopping total of 13 three pointers across 6 games, combined :lol


13-60 :(

:yaohappy:

[light]

The thing about Jordan at age 35 is that he looked every bit of 35. He looked old. He was a lot slower. He couldn't jump as high anymore. All of his percentages were way down.

He retired at the right time.

LeBron at age 36 is more athletic than Jordan was at age 31.

[HoopsNY]

Still can't believe that there was an opponent in an NBA finals where the 2nd leading scorer on a team averaged 10.7 points. On .411 shooting. :roll:
That's terrible even by pre-24 second shot clock standards, when game scores were regularly 52-48 and shyt. :oldlol:

In one of the slowest years the NBA had seen in its entire history.

Last year, teams played in the bubble. In the finals, Tyler Herro was the second option and averaged 14.7 PPG on 37%, in a league that averaged 112 PPG.

Yet you're the one over here laughing? :lol

[dankok8]

posters should use per 100 possession stats. better for cross era debates because they normalize possessions.

bpm-rapm-raptor-per etc. are used frequently in historical, player comparisons. for teams srs is also pretty useful.

Problem with per 100 or per 75 stats is that they also penalize players who play more minutes.

Player A playing 40 mpg at a pace of 90 means he played 75 possessions.
Player B playing 36 mpg at a pace of 100 means he played 75 possessions.

They both played 75 possessions but player B had a much easier time scoring the ball because the game is being played faster i.e. more fast break chances.

I prefer doing a pace adjustment but leaving minutes the same.

[HoopsNY]

Huge difference between the two players though:

LeBron runs both the Lakers offense and defense. Pippen ran the Bulls offense and defense (prepared and initiated the triangle and quarterbacked the defense).

Jordan had less responsibility than LeBron, in other words.

LeBron runs his team, quarterbacks their defense, calls all of their plays, then on top of that he often leads his team in every category like scoring, assists and rebounds.

Pippen missed half the season and was injured in the ECF and Finals. Did you forget that? In the ECF he averaged 16.6 PPG on a woeful 46% TS%. In the finals he averaged 15.7 PPG on 50% TS%.

AD matched LeBron pound for pound in the playoffs and was providing solid defense. Just look at how he guarded Butler in the finals. AD's TS% was 67%.


That puts LeBron on an entirely different level than Jordan at any age.

Do you spew so many lies that you eventually believe it?

[mehyaM24]

Problem with per 100 or per 75 stats is that they also penalize players who play more minutes.

Player A playing 40 mpg at a pace of 90 means he played 75 possessions.
Player B playing 36 mpg at a pace of 100 means he played 75 possessions.

They both played 75 possessions but player B had a much easier time scoring the ball because the game is being played faster i.e. more fast break chances.

I prefer doing a pace adjustment but leaving minutes the same.

all true, but its better than any alternative. comparing points, assists & rebounds from the 60s to 00s. possessions would absolutely need to be accounted for.

in theory your example makes sense. but player b might actually have to exert more energy, because the game is played faster.

[HoopsNY]

LeBron stans continuously lie about LeBron's role on the team. We're constantly told that LeBron is the "defensive anchor" and at times the best defensive player. This was even consistently regurgitated last season and it seems that Bran stans are parroting that mantra onto now.

2019 LAL (w/o AD): 12th DRTG
2020 LAL (w/AD): 3rd DRTG

AD 2020: All-Defensive 1st Team, 2nd in DPOY voting
LeBron 2020: 0 All-Defensive selections, 0 DPOY votes

Did Bran stans even watch the finals? Did they see how Butler was torching the entire Lakers lineup until AD switched onto him?

[dankok8]

all true, but its better than any alternative. comparing points, assists & rebounds from the 60s to 00s. possessions would absolutely need to be accounted for.

in theory your example makes sense. but player b might actually have to exert more energy, because the game is played faster.

Yes. Adjust for pace but not for minutes. For instance adjusting 19-20 Giannis' stats per 75 would give you 33/15/6 which is maybe the best statline in league history but I doubt a guy playing 30 mpg could maintain anywhere near that production per 75 playing 40 mpg.

[HoopsNY]

the lakers have the #1 defense currently & lebron rates well in MOST defensive metrics. keep in mind, this is also with AD sitting out a large portion of games. so there is validity in his defensive abilities whether you agree or not.

I'm referring to last season. light mentioned that Lebron ran "both the offense and defense." As usual, much like how 3ball argues, LeBron does it all and no one does anything. We've seen LeBron stans continuously downplay and disregard the contributions of his cast throughout his entire career.

As for this season, then he's having a very good defensive year, I am not debating that.

[mehyaM24]

Yes. Adjust for pace but not for minutes. For instance adjusting 19-20 Giannis' stats per 75 would give you 33/15/6 which is maybe the best statline in league history but I doubt a guy playing 30 mpg could maintain anywhere near that production per 75 playing 40 mpg.

per 75 isn't as stable as per 100. which is why most advanced data is adjusted by the latter & not the former. again, your point makes sense & a good stat for you to use would be rapm. it takes minutes into account. other than that you're still left altering possessions.

[3ball]

Pippen missed half the season and was injured in the ECF and Finals. Did you forget that? In the ECF he averaged 16.6 PPG on a woeful 46% TS%. In the finals he averaged 15.7 PPG on 50% TS%.

AD matched LeBron pound for pound in the playoffs and was providing solid defense. Just look at how he guarded Butler in the finals. AD's TS% was 67%.



Do you spew so many lies that you eventually believe it?


Boom

[8Ball]

Pippen missed half the season and was injured in the ECF and Finals. Did you forget that? In the ECF he averaged 16.6 PPG on a woeful 46% TS%. In the finals he averaged 15.7 PPG on 50% TS%.

AD matched LeBron pound for pound in the playoffs and was providing solid defense. Just look at how he guarded Butler in the finals. AD's TS% was 67%.



Do you spew so many lies that you eventually believe it?

3.5 assists for a season = Carmelo Ball.
2 assists for a finals = pathetic.

[Axe]

Pippen missed half the season and was injured in the ECF and Finals. Did you forget that? In the ECF he averaged 16.6 PPG on a woeful 46% TS%. In the finals he averaged 15.7 PPG on 50% TS%.

AD matched LeBron pound for pound in the playoffs and was providing solid defense. Just look at how he guarded Butler in the finals. AD's TS% was 67%.



Do you spew so many lies that you eventually believe it?
Maybe lord voldemort just does this for a living. Who knows. :confusedshrug:

[dankok8]

per 75 isn't as stable as per 100. which is why most advanced data is adjusted by the latter & not the former. again, your point makes sense & a good stat for you to use would be rapm. it takes minutes into account. other than that you're still left altering possessions.

Per 75 and per 100 are exactly equal in stability. Stats are only presented per 100 so that you can calculate per possession more easily (divide by 100). It's more convenient.

[dankok8]

Fun tidbit that I accidentally stumbled upon while researching for my Iverson mini-article.

1998 Jordan has the lowest turnover rate ever (TOV% = 6.7) for any playoff run over 5 games USG% > 35 and MPG > 35.

Stathead Link
(https://stathead.com/basketball/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&order_by_asc=0&order_by=ws&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&is_playoffs=Y&ccomp%5B1%5D=lt&cval%5B1%5D=10&cstat%5B1%5D=tov_pct&ccomp%5B2%5D=gt&cval%5B2%5D=35&cstat%5B2%5D=usg_pct&ccomp%5B3%5D=gt&cval%5B3%5D=35&cstat%5B3%5D=mp_per_g&lg_id=NBA&birth_country_is=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&college_id=0&as_comp=gt&as_val=0)
Those who call MJ in 97-98 inefficient should realize that he was probably literally the least turnover prone player ever. His super-low turnover rates are probably the most underrated aspect of his offensive dominance. It's almost never brought up.

[mehyaM24]

Per 75 and per 100 are exactly equal in stability. Stats are only presented per 100 so that you can calculate per possession more easily (divide by 100). It's more convenient.

are you saying you'd get equal numbers with per 75 and 100 possessions? because in stats like bpm-per-rpm, i don't think per 75 is even measured.

[Micku]

Fun tidbit that I accidentally stumbled upon while researching for my Iverson mini-article.

1998 Jordan has the lowest turnover rate ever (TOV% = 6.7) for any playoff run over 5 games USG% > 35 and MPG > 35.

Stathead Link
(https://stathead.com/basketball/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&order_by_asc=0&order_by=ws&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&is_playoffs=Y&ccomp%5B1%5D=lt&cval%5B1%5D=10&cstat%5B1%5D=tov_pct&ccomp%5B2%5D=gt&cval%5B2%5D=35&cstat%5B2%5D=usg_pct&ccomp%5B3%5D=gt&cval%5B3%5D=35&cstat%5B3%5D=mp_per_g&lg_id=NBA&birth_country_is=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&college_id=0&as_comp=gt&as_val=0)
Those who call MJ in 97-98 inefficient should realize that he was probably literally the least turnover prone player ever. His super-low turnover rates are probably the most underrated aspect of his offensive dominance. It's almost never brought up.

You right about that. It's probably the most underrated aspect about his game. He was always low considering. Like the top 10 the least turnover player almost every season

[k 96]

LeESPN Hype James = A PATHETIC 4 OF 10

Michael "90's cupcake" Jordan = Overrated 90's Expansion team destroyer

[3ball]

Fun tidbit that I accidentally stumbled upon while researching for my Iverson mini-article.

1998 Jordan has the lowest turnover rate ever (TOV% = 6.7) for any playoff run over 5 games USG% > 35 and MPG > 35.

Stathead Link
(https://stathead.com/basketball/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&order_by_asc=0&order_by=ws&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&is_playoffs=Y&ccomp%5B1%5D=lt&cval%5B1%5D=10&cstat%5B1%5D=tov_pct&ccomp%5B2%5D=gt&cval%5B2%5D=35&cstat%5B2%5D=usg_pct&ccomp%5B3%5D=gt&cval%5B3%5D=35&cstat%5B3%5D=mp_per_g&lg_id=NBA&birth_country_is=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&college_id=0&as_comp=gt&as_val=0)
Those who call MJ in 97-98 inefficient should realize that he was probably literally the least turnover prone player ever. His super-low turnover rates are probably the most underrated aspect of his offensive dominance. It's almost never brought up.


Jordan had 0 turnovers while scoring his record 30 points in clutch time (last 5 within 5) in the 98' Finals.

I wonder what would've happened if he had 6 turnovers in clutch time like Lebron in the 09' ECF.... f'ing butter fingers in the clutch

[TheGoatest]

3.5 assists for a season = Carmelo Ball.
2 assists for a finals = pathetic.

Steve "never did anything but catch-and-shoot" Kerr played literally half the minutes Jordan played in the '98 finals. He still had more assists than Jordan. :lol

[8Ball]

Steve "never did anything but catch-and-shoot" Kerr played literally half the minutes Jordan played in the '98 finals. He still had more assists than Jordan. :lol

I would never be a fan of LeBron if he averaged 3.5 assists for entire season.

[TheGoatest]

In one of the slowest years the NBA had seen in its entire history.

Last year, teams played in the bubble. In the finals, Tyler Herro was the second option and averaged 14.7 PPG on 37%, in a league that averaged 112 PPG.

Yet you're the one over here laughing? :lol

Those are still better numbers than 10.7 on .411 :oldlol:
Especially when you consider that the Heat also had a player who averaged 15.3 on .535 play 4 out of the 6 games in the series. Nice attempt to dodge this though.
That Heat finals team had 6 players average more than 10.7. And they were 0.2 ppg away from having 7 players average that.

Still can't believe that shyt. 10.7 ppg = second leading scorer for a team in the finals :lol

[HoopsNY]

Those are still better numbers than 10.7 on .411 :oldlol:
Especially when you consider that the Heat also had a player who averaged 15.3 on .535 play 4 out of the 6 games in the series. Nice attempt to dodge this though.
That Heat finals team had 6 players average more than 10.7. And they were 0.2 ppg away from having 7 players average that.

Still can't believe that shyt. 10.7 ppg = second leading scorer for a team in the finals :lol

I didn't dodge anything. You're obviously not understanding my point. You're comparing eras that are not comparable.

League PPG 2019-20: 111.8 PPG
League PPG 1997-98: 95.6 PPG

League Pace 2019-20: 100.3
League Pace 1997-98: 90.3

League 3 Pointers 2019-20: 862
League 3 Pointers 1997-98: 360

Adjust for pace of play and it's not that crazy. Not to mention, the Heat and Lakers played in the bubble, which gives an obvious advantage as teams don't face the opposing team's home fan pressure.

Can you not see there is a glaring difference between now and then? One incredibly fast paced era that utilizes a record number of three pointers vs one that is incredibly slow with barely any threes. A 4 PPG is not significant.

[TheGoatest]

I didn't dodge anything. You're obviously not understanding my point. You're comparing eras that are not comparable.

League PPG 2019-20: 111.8 PPG
League PPG 1997-98: 95.6 PPG

League Pace 2019-20: 100.3
League Pace 1997-98: 90.3

League 3 Pointers 2019-20: 862
League 3 Pointers 1997-98: 360

Adjust for pace of play and it's not that crazy. Not to mention, the Heat and Lakers played in the bubble, which gives an obvious advantage as teams don't face the opposing team's home fan pressure.

Can you not see there is a glaring difference between now and then? One incredibly fast paced era that utilizes a record number of three pointers vs one that is incredibly slow with barely any threes. A 4 PPG is not significant.

Second leading scorers for both teams in the 1947 NBA finals:
12.4
11.4

1948:
13.7
12.8

1949:
12.8
11.7

1950:
13.7
13.7

1951:
17.0
13.4

1952:
13.1
13.0

1953:
14.8
14.4

1954:
11.6
10.9

This was in the pre-24 shot clock era, where a game actually finished 19-18.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4846/46378346701_f559faea92_n.jpg

Take your era talk and stick it up your ass. 10.7 ppg :oldlol: :roll:

[k 96]

Let's do NBA Finals Record comparison!

LeESPN Hype James ......................4 of 10
Michael 90's cup cake Jordan.........6 of 6

[RogueBorg]

So AD was already a superstar before lebron, whereas Jordan turned Pippen from a single-digit rookie to HOF



All factual information.

1987 Jerry Krause: "Clay...meet Potter"

[RogueBorg]

Let's do NBA Finals Record comparison!

LeESPN Hype James ......................4 of 10
Michael 90's cup cake Jordan.........6 of 6

For those who failed basic math

1.000>.400