Does this prove that 05-10' Lebron had more help on both sides of ball than 90' MJ?

[3ball]

In 2005, 2006, 2009, and 2010, Lebron had a better-ranked team defense, and a better offensive sidekick than 90' Pippen was

(05' Zydrunas, 05' Hughes, 06' Zydrunas, 09' Mo, and 10' Jamison had better PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen).

So Jordan had less help on both sides of the ball, yet nearly beat the champs (a "migraine" stopped it), while Lebron was swept (07'), lottery (05'), and lost as the league favorite (09' and 10')..

[scuzzy]

Lebron made the finals with 2nd option Larry Hughes

Jordan missed the playoffs with 3rd option Larry Hughes

[red1]

only finals MVP over a 70+ win team - thank you kyrie :)




https://compote.slate.com/images/28aa7a8e-6f1e-4814-b740-fd7da4daf292.jpg

[SATAN]

Attention

[3ball]

Lebron made the finals with 2nd option Larry Hughes

Jordan missed the playoffs with 3rd option Larry Hughes


07' Lebron had the #4 team defense, along with 2-time all-star Zydrunas and a 22/5/5 all-defender in Hughes, so that's 2 guys that were better than 90' Pippen (#19 defense)

Ultimately... by properly evaluating Jordan's help in 90' as less than 05-10' Lebron, we can accurately gauge his 91'-93' championship help as comparable to 10' Lebron's, and therefore see the extent of his carry-jobs.. Jordan's carry-jobs are further demonstrated by the goat gap between his production rate stats (PER, etc) and his sidekicks' - it's bigger than the gap between 11' Dirk and Terry, so MJ has 6 carry-jobs bigger than 11' Dirk (stats here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486296-The-gap-between-11-Dirk-and-his-2nd-option-versus-the-gap-between-MJ-and-Pip)).

[kawhileonard2]

Yes he had Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and won bronze medal.

[scuzzy]

07' Lebron had the #4 team defense, along with 2-time all-star Zydrunas and a 22/5/5 all-defender in Hughes, so that's 2 guys that were better than 90' Pippen (#19 defense)

Ultimately... by properly evaluating Jordan's help in 90' as less than 05-10' Lebron, we can accurately gauge his 91'-93' championship help as comparable to 10' Lebron's, and therefore see the extent of his carry-jobs.. Jordan's carry-jobs are further demonstrated by the goat gap between his production rate stats (PER, etc) and his sidekicks' - it's bigger than the gap between 11' Dirk and Terry, so MJ has 6 carry-jobs bigger than 11' Dirk (stats here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486296-The-gap-between-11-Dirk-and-his-2nd-option-versus-the-gap-between-MJ-and-Pip)).
Jordan missed the playoffs with 2x all-star Jerry Stackhouse and prime 3rd option Larry Hughes

[LAmbruh]

Jordan missed the playoffs with 2x all-star Jerry Stackhouse and prime 3rd option Larry Hughes
Jordan was Jerry's pippen :(

[3ball]

Jordan missed the playoffs with 2x all-star Jerry Stackhouse and prime 3rd option Larry Hughes



You're talking about the 03' Wizards, where Jordan had higher PER than rookie Lebron the next year (who was also lottery)

Otoh, the 02' Wizards were the 4 seed just like the 19' Lakers, but then MJ got hurt

Before the injury, MJ was 1 of 3 guys averaging 25/5/5 (Kobe, Tmac, MJ), with 50 point games and winners over Marion.. that's basically the same as lebron except today's league allows teams 20 more ppg

But his play at 39 years old doesn't count anyway.. Ultimately, 85-90' Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win it with less help than 05-10' Lebron, who played in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning

[Hey Yo]

Larry Hughes' statline for the 2007 Finals

2gms.... 44mp.... 1pt, 2 boards and 1 assist

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html

[RRR3]

Why does OP punish LeBron for leading his teams to better defenses lol? Makes no sense.

[3ball]

Why does OP punish LeBron for leading his teams to better defenses lol? Makes no sense.


Zydrunas was a top rim protector (2.5 blocks) - that's why the 05' Cavs had the #12 defense..

Otoh, the 90' Bulls had the #19 defense because they had zero rim protection in a packed-paint league format (0.3 blocks for Cartwright).

[3ball]

Larry Hughes' statline for the 2007 Finals

2gms.... 44mp.... 1pt, 2 boards and 1 assist

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html


Hughes was hurt but his 22/5/5 all-defender capacity helped the Cavs make the Finals, along with 2-time all-star Zydrunas and a top team defense - that's more help than Jordan had until 92', so Lebron shouldn't have been swept.. he only got swept because he wet the bed with 22 on 35%..

Btw, I understand that lebron reduced Hughes, so he wasn't getting 22/5/5 anymore but his decorated accolades and presence was still a big factor in winning the East

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan missed the playoffs with 2x all-star Jerry Stackhouse and prime 3rd option Larry Hughes

Lebron lost in the playoffs with 3x finals mvp in Shaq and 1x league mvp in Shaq and then lost with 4x DPOY in Ben Wallace to Dwight Howard and won bronze medal with Peak Duncan who was 2x MVP and 2x Finals mvp.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs (proof that 05-10' Lebron had more help on both sides of ball than 90' MJ)


From 06-10, the Cavs had higher-ranked team defenses than the 90' Bulls and better offensive sidekicks than Pippen (05' Zydrunas, 05' Hughes, 06' Zydrunas, 09' Mo, and 10' Jamison had better PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen).

So Jordan had less help on both sides of the ball, yet nearly beat the champs (a "migraine" stopped it), while Lebron was swept (07'), lottery (05'), and lost as the league favorite (09' and 10')..

Ultimately, 85-90' Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win it with less help than 05-10' Lebron, who played in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning

[light]

In 1989 and 1990 the Bulls had the same starting 5 that won in 91, 92 and 93.

The difference between winning and losing for the Bulls depended on Jordan finally trusting his teammates which started in earnest in the 1991 playoffs - both Pippen and Jackson agree. Jordan probably would agree too.

The Bulls starters of Paxson, Jordan, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright plus Phil Jackson as head coach was better than any team LeBron would have until Miami. Easily. Mostly because of Pippen and Jackson - two legends.

[kawhileonard2]

In 1989 and 1990 the Bulls had the same starting 5 that won in 91, 92 and 93.

The difference between winning and losing for the Bulls depended on Jordan finally trusting his teammates which started in earnest in the 1991 playoffs - both Pippen and Jackson agree. Jordan probably would agree too.

The Bulls starters of Paxson, Jordan, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright plus Phil Jackson as head coach was better than any team LeBron would have until Miami. Easily. Mostly because of Pippen and Jackson - two legends.

Lebron had a 3x Finals MVP winner on his squad and 4x DPOY on his squad before Miami and also a 2x Finals MVP's and 2x League MVP on his squad and won bronze medal.

[8Ball]

Lebron made the finals with 2nd option Larry Hughes

Jordan missed the playoffs with 3rd option Larry Hughes

End thread.

Jordan couldn't make the playoffs with Larry Hughes as a 3rd option.

[Axe]

Op is such a big

Lima
Oscar
Sierra
Echo
Romeo

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron had a 3x Finals MVP winner on his squad and 4x DPOY on his squad before Miami and also a 2x Finals MVP's and 2x League MVP on his squad and won bronze medal.

End thread! Lebron couldn't win gold medal with peak Duncan on his team. Lebron couldn't win title with Shaq who won 3 finals mvp's and a league mvp while Kobe and Wade did.

[3ball]

In 1989 and 1990 the Bulls had the same starting 5 that won in 91, 92 and 93.

The difference between winning and losing for the Bulls depended on Jordan finally trusting his teammates which started in earnest in the 1991 playoffs - both Pippen and Jackson agree. Jordan probably would agree too.





The difference between winning and losing was having a sidekick that didn't average 10 on 40% and quit the last 2 games (1989 ECF), or average 16 on 42% and quit the last game (90' ECF)..

Once that didn't happen, MJ won...

So Phil had little to do with it and infact inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals - but Phil couldn't avoid the bite of "migraine Pippen" anymore than Doug Collins did in 88' and 89'.... So the historical record proves you wrong and shows that a minimal, viable cast was the critical aspect needed..

Surely the Piston-killer and FMVP James Worthy would've won in place of trash Pippen in 89' and 90'.. Pippen was just the low-producing bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery






In 1989 and 1990 the Bulls had the same starting 5 that won in 91, 92 and 93.

The difference between winning and losing for the Bulls depended on Jordan finally trusting his teammates which started in earnest in the 1991 playoffs





^^^ The bolded above is one of the most misperceived aspects of Jordan's career.

Jordan won the 92' and 93' titles with 35 ppg in the playoffs (36 and 41 in the Finals), while his 92', 93' and 98' titles had 38% usage (the highest of his career outside of the 86' and 87' 1st Round losses).

Furthermore, Jordan's highest usage regular seasons were mostly championship seasons, so he did NOT reduce his volume to win like everyone thinks:



Jordan's highest usage seasons as a Bull (* denotes title year):

1. 1987... 38.3%
2. 1993... 34.7%*
3. 1988... 34.1%
4. 1998... 33.7%*
5. 1990... 33.7%
6. 1996... 33.3%*
7. 1997... 33.1%*
8. 1991... 32.9%*
9. 1989... 31.1%


People simply use the slight dip he had in 1991 to say he reduced his volume but it's untrue because he had all-time high volume in the championships after that.

People forget that Phil Jackson said in "The Last Dance" that he actually told Jordan - "you won't be scoring champ in the triangle"... but Jordan proved him wrong, along with the widespread belief that a scoring champion couldn't be a champion.

So Jordan didn't change anything or "tone it down" to win - he simply emphasized various aspects of his repertoire to fit his goat burden into the triangle - but the burden itself didn't change, as proven by the ppg, usage and shot volume stats..







Phil Jackson





Phil Jackson inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals

Specifically, the 89' Bulls had just taken the champs to 6 games in the ECF despite 10 on 40% from Pippen (Pippen basically missed the last 2 games of that series)

So they were already a Finals team assuming they had a remotely viable cast that could finish a series - so Phil didn't do anything but elevate Pippen to "migraine" status, which sabatoged yet another sure title for Jordan in 1990.






The Bulls starters of Paxson, Jordan, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright plus Phil Jackson as head coach was better than any team LeBron would have until Miami. Easily. Mostly because of Pippen and Jackson - two legends.





^^^ Not the 90' Bulls, who had the #19 defense and Pippen was a worse offensive sidekick, aka he had lower PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than Mo, Zydrunas, Hughes and Jamison... so 90' MJ had less help on both sides of the ball than 06-10' Lebron

Btw, guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.

[SouBeachTalents]

The difference between winning and losing was having a sidekick that didn't average 10 on 40% and quit the last 2 games (1989 ECF), or average 16 on 42% and quit the last game (90' ECF)..

Once that didn't happen, MJ won...

So Phil had little to do with it and infact inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals - but Phil couldn't avoid the bite of "migraine Pippen" anymore than Doug Collins did in 88' and 89'.... So the historical record proves you wrong and shows that a minimal, viable cast was the critical aspect needed..

Surely the Piston-killer and FMVP James Worthy would've won in place of trash Pippen in 89' and 90'.. Pippen was just the low-producing bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery






^^^ The bolded above is one of the most misperceived aspects of Jordan's career.

Jordan won the 92' and 93' titles with 35 ppg in the playoffs (36 and 41 in the Finals), while his 92', 93' and 98' titles had 38% usage (the highest of his career outside of the 86' and 87' 1st Round losses).

Furthermore, Jordan's highest usage regular seasons were mostly championship seasons, so he did NOT reduce his volume to win like everyone thinks:



Jordan's highest usage seasons as a Bull (* denotes title year):

1. 1987... 38.3%
2. 1993... 34.7%*
3. 1988... 34.1%
4. 1998... 33.7%*
5. 1990... 33.7%
6. 1996... 33.3%*
7. 1997... 33.1%*
8. 1991... 32.9%*
9. 1989... 31.1%


People simply use the slight dip he had in 1991 to say he reduced his volume but it's untrue because he had all-time high volume in the championships after that.

People forget that Phil Jackson said in "The Last Dance" that he actually told Jordan - "you won't be scoring champ in the triangle"... but Jordan proved him wrong, along with the widespread belief that a scoring champion couldn't be a champion.

So Jordan didn't change anything or "tone it down" to win - he simply emphasized various aspects of his repertoire to fit his goat burden into the triangle - but the burden itself didn't change, as proven by the ppg, usage and shot volume stats..






Phil Jackson inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals

Specifically, the 89' Bulls had just taken the champs to 6 games in the ECF despite 10 on 40% from Pippen (Pippen basically missed the last 2 games of that series)

So they were already a Finals team assuming they had a remotely viable cast that could finish a series - so Phil didn't do anything but elevate Pippen to "migraine" status, which sabatoged yet another sure title for Jordan in 1990.






^^^ Not the 90' Bulls, who had the #19 defense and Pippen was a worse offensive sidekick, aka he had lower PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than Mo, Zydrunas, Hughes and Jamison... so 90' MJ had less help on both sides of the ball than 06-10' Lebron

Btw, guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.
1-9

[Axe]

The difference between winning and losing was having a sidekick that didn't average 10 on 40% and quit the last 2 games (1989 ECF), or average 16 on 42% and quit the last game (90' ECF)..

Once that didn't happen, MJ won...

So Phil had little to do with it and infact inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals - but Phil couldn't avoid the bite of "migraine Pippen" anymore than Doug Collins did in 88' and 89'.... So the historical record proves you wrong and shows that a minimal, viable cast was the critical aspect needed..

Surely the Piston-killer and FMVP James Worthy would've won in place of trash Pippen in 89' and 90'.. Pippen was just the low-producing bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery






^^^ The bolded above is one of the most misperceived aspects of Jordan's career.

Jordan won the 92' and 93' titles with 35 ppg in the playoffs (36 and 41 in the Finals), while his 92', 93' and 98' titles had 38% usage (the highest of his career outside of the 86' and 87' 1st Round losses).

Furthermore, Jordan's highest usage regular seasons were mostly championship seasons, so he did NOT reduce his volume to win like everyone thinks:



Jordan's highest usage seasons as a Bull (* denotes title year):

1. 1987... 38.3%
2. 1993... 34.7%*
3. 1988... 34.1%
4. 1998... 33.7%*
5. 1990... 33.7%
6. 1996... 33.3%*
7. 1997... 33.1%*
8. 1991... 32.9%*
9. 1989... 31.1%


People simply use the slight dip he had in 1991 to say he reduced his volume but it's untrue because he had all-time high volume in the championships after that.

People forget that Phil Jackson said in "The Last Dance" that he actually told Jordan - "you won't be scoring champ in the triangle"... but Jordan proved him wrong, along with the widespread belief that a scoring champion couldn't be a champion.

So Jordan didn't change anything or "tone it down" to win - he simply emphasized various aspects of his repertoire to fit his goat burden into the triangle - but the burden itself didn't change, as proven by the ppg, usage and shot volume stats..






Phil Jackson inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals

Specifically, the 89' Bulls had just taken the champs to 6 games in the ECF despite 10 on 40% from Pippen (Pippen basically missed the last 2 games of that series)

So they were already a Finals team assuming they had a remotely viable cast that could finish a series - so Phil didn't do anything but elevate Pippen to "migraine" status, which sabatoged yet another sure title for Jordan in 1990.






^^^ Not the 90' Bulls, who had the #19 defense and Pippen was a worse offensive sidekick, aka he had lower PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than Mo, Zydrunas, Hughes and Jamison... so 90' MJ had less help on both sides of the ball than 06-10' Lebron

Btw, guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.
The fact that you think phil is not better in head coaching over someone average like doug collins shows a lot about your fake knowledge.

[SpaceJam]

3ball didn't MJ attempt only 8 field goals in a pivotal game 5 of the '89 ECF. A win there would have put them up 3-2 heading into game 6 at home

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron won bronze medal with peak Tim Duncan, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Allen Iverson on his squad and lost to Dwight Howard a career loser with HCA.

[Hey Yo]

3ball didn't MJ attempt only 8 field goals in a pivotal game 5 of the '89 ECF. A win there would have put them up 3-2 heading into game 6 at home

Such a fierce competitor...... win at all costs.

[And1AllDay]

3ball didn't MJ attempt only 8 field goals in a pivotal game 5 of the '89 ECF. A win there would have put them up 3-2 heading into game 6 at home

thread killer :oldlol: lemme bump it thanks for the reminder

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Why does OP punish LeBron for leading his teams to better defenses lol? Makes no sense.
He wasn't the main reason for that especially before 2009 but even in 09/10 those teams had size up front and they knew how to use that size, no softies

But yes OP, he had comparable help in the 09-10 period (no Pippen but better depth) and still couldn't win :oldlol: :lol :roll:
Would not put the 06 - 08 Cavaliers cast on the same level but they were definitely better than his stans want people to believe

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


From 06-10, the Cavs had higher-ranked team defenses than the 85-90' Bulls and better offensive sidekicks than Pippen (05' Zydrunas, 05' Hughes, 06' Zydrunas, 09' Mo, and 10' Jamison had better PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen).

So Jordan had less help on both sides of the ball, yet nearly beat the champs (a "migraine" stopped it), while Lebron was swept (07'), lottery (05'), and lost as the league favorite (09' and 10')..

Ultimately, 85-90' Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win it with less help than 05-10' Lebron, who played in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning




3ball didn't MJ attempt only 8 field goals in a pivotal game 5 of the '89 ECF. A win there would have put them up 3-2 heading into game 6 at home


89' Pippen wasn't a viable player and infact quit those last 2 games... If only Jordan had Booby Gibson, who won the 07' East by scoring 31 points on 99% true shooting in the closeout Game 6, while Lebron disappeared with 20 points on 3-11.

Or if Jordan had JR Smith, who averaged 18/8 on 70% true shooting in the 15' ECF (prime Pippen stats)..

So Jordan didn't need much to win... Otoh, when lebron gets swept by the Spurs or beaten by record amount, he needs a mountain of help to win because his brand (ball-dominance) is inferior strategy and therefore requires more talent..

[SpaceJam]

.
Thread Cliffs


From 06-10, the Cavs had higher-ranked team defenses than the 85-90' Bulls and better offensive sidekicks than Pippen (05' Zydrunas, 05' Hughes, 06' Zydrunas, 09' Mo, and 10' Jamison had better PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen).

So Jordan had less help on both sides of the ball, yet nearly beat the champs (a "migraine" stopped it), while Lebron was swept (07'), lottery (05'), and lost as the league favorite (09' and 10')..

Ultimately, 85-90' Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win it with less help than 05-10' Lebron, who played in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning






89' Pippen wasn't a viable player and infact quit those last 2 games... If only Jordan had Booby Gibson, who won the 07' East by scoring 31 points on 99% true shooting in the closeout Game 6, while Lebron disappeared with 20 points on 3-11.

Or if Jordan had JR Smith, who averaged 18/8 on 70% true shooting in the 15' ECF (prime Pippen stats)..

So Jordan didn't need much to win... Otoh, when lebron gets swept by the Spurs or beaten by record amount, he needs a mountain of help to win because his brand (ball-dominance) is inferior strategy and therefore requires more talent..

Didn't MJ attempt only 8 field goals in a pivotal game 5 of the '89 ECF. A win there would have put them up 3-2 heading into game 6 at home

[RRR3]

Didn't MJ attempt only 8 field goals in a pivotal game 5 of the '89 ECF. A win there would have put them up 3-2 heading into game 6 at home
Mikey quit when the going got tough :(