Jerry Stackhouse regretted playing with Michael Jordan

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgHHjz06C9E

Jerry was averaging 29.8 ppg with the Pistons. And with the Wizards he became a 21.5 ppg scorer. Before the trade many fans were saying that the Pistons got robbed in that trade because Stackhouse was a better player than Hamilton. Both Stackhouse and Collins reputations were ruined after that season. Jordan at the aged of 40 still wanted to averaged 25 field goal attempts per game

[TheGoatest]

We all know what Jordan does to other players:

7 Bulls players averaged career highs in points in the 1993-94 season. Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong immediately became all-stars. Those Bulls didn't miss a beat compared to the 1991-1993 championship teams, except in one vital category - Favorable ref calls:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdOzWd6XEAAkFpW.jpg

[Lebron23]

We all know what Jordan does to other players:

7 Bulls players averaged career highs in the 1993-94 season. Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong immediately became all-stars. Those Bulls didn't miss a beat compared to the 1991-1993 championship teams, except in one vital category - Favorable ref calls:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdOzWd6XEAAkFpW.jpg

Jordanball is cancerous without Phil Jackson and Pippen. He never had a winning season without these two guys.

[Reggie43]

I actually believed this but a quick look at the stats shows that Stackhouse was already down to 21.5ppg on the Pistons prior to joining the Wizards.

Jordan in Washington as an older dude really got exposed for his one dimensional leadership style thinking that tough guy persona would work with his diminished athleticism and ability which only alienated teammates but to be fair he was still really good considering his age (38-39)

[kawhileonard2]

Its why he never won bronze medal for America nor never lost with HCA.

[Lebron23]

I actually believed this but a quick look at the stats shows that Stackhouse was already down to 21.5ppg on the Pistons prior to joining the Wizards.

Jordan in Washington as an older dude really got exposed for his one dimensional leadership style thinking that tough guy persona would work with his diminished athleticism and ability which only alienated teammates but to be fair he was still really good considering his age (38-39)

I think that Jordan would have been a good 2nd scoring option if they have a Duncan and Shaq franchise player.

[Kiddlovesnets]

And Isaiah Thomas regretted playing with Lebron, who ruined his career and he’s now out of the league.

[Reggie43]

I think that Jordan would have been a good 2nd scoring option if they have a Duncan and Shaq franchise player.

Yeah that shit he pulled on washington would be better on more established teams. I think the Blazers of that time could have used that in your face leadership lol.

[SATAN]

And Isaiah Thomas regretted playing with Lebron, who ruined his career and he’s now out of the league.

Yeah, right :oldlol:

:facepalm

[Kiddlovesnets]

Yeah, right :oldlol:

:facepalm

So what? Lebronstans post nonsense about MJ and now they are mad when it backfires.
:lol

[Shooter]

We all know what Jordan does to other players:

7 Bulls players averaged career highs in points in the 1993-94 season. Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong immediately became all-stars. Those Bulls didn't miss a beat compared to the 1991-1993 championship teams, except in one vital category - Favorable ref calls:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdOzWd6XEAAkFpW.jpg

Bingo

[Manny98]

Jerry Stackhouse
Kwame Brown
Orlando Woolridge
BJ Armstrong
Ron Harper
Pippen
Grant
Kukoc

List of victims from Jordan ball :(

[mehyaM24]

you'd think his teammates would be in awe of him. that version of jordan expected standards even he couldn't live up to - and that's why the lockeroom soured. nobodies following your lead if you cant backup what you say.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Lebron threw Isaiah under the bus and it didnt end up well either.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2759272-cavaliers-rumors-isaiah-thomas-has-no-love-for-lebron-james-after-lakers-trade

[hack_a_shaq]

you'd think his teammates would be in awe of him. that version of jordan expected standards even he couldn't live up to - and that's why the lockeroom soured. nobodies following your lead if you cant backup what you say.

Basically this

[Thenameless]

Those Bulls also couldn't win a Championship without Jordan. Really, who cares about individual stats. I'd rather have decent stats (not career highs) that come with winning a Title.

[Axe]

Those Bulls also couldn't win a Championship without Jordan. Really, who cares about individual stats. I'd rather have decent stats (not career highs) that come with winning a Title.
This. :cheers:

[Axe]

He never really elevated his own teammates because he used to be a ballhog.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I actually believed this but a quick look at the stats shows that Stackhouse was already down to 21.5ppg on the Pistons prior to joining the Wizards.

Jordan in Washington as an older dude really got exposed for his one dimensional leadership style thinking that tough guy persona would work with his diminished athleticism and ability which only alienated teammates but to be fair he was still really good considering his age (38-39)
Jordan in Washington got exposed as a bad GM. Whether he was nice or mean wouldn't have mattered. Bulls Jordan would have made them a good team becvause he's one of the greatest players ever. Wizards Jordan didnt have the same athleticism or durability.

As for Stack he was never meant to be a superstar and one of the worst things for him was the MJ comparisons born of where he went to school his size and athletic ability. He was never going to be a superstar. The 29.8 ppg season was actually horrible, he shot 40% from the field and the Pistons stunk. His final year in Detroit he did a more reasonable 21 but still shot 40% (actually slightly less than that). The last postseason in Detroit he got destroyed at both ends of the floor by Paul Pierce. Fans are divided as to whether or not Pierce was a superstar (I say he was of course, but whatever). But the way Pierce destroyed a healthy 27 year-old Stack left no doubt in my mind that Stack was not one. Had some terrible games, shooting in the 30s and one game even the 20s on the way to Detroit losing 4-1. Rip Hamilton was a vast improvement simply by fitting into a role and not trying to do too much.

Career Stack shot 40%.

The pressure of playing beside his likely childhood idol and the high likelihood that MJ was a jerk didn't help. But Stack had been not playing like a superstar for a long time before MJ traded for him.

[Reggie43]

You would think a guy with better leadership skills would inspire his teammates and build better chemistry. They would have played harder for him and they might have gotten that playoff berth but instead the Goat was getting stabbed in the back.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You would think a guy with better leadership skills would inspire his teammates and build better chemistry. They would have played harder for him and they might have gotten that playoff berth but instead the Goat was getting stabbed in the back.
Jordan didn't win six championships because people loved to hear him talk. What made him great is that he could guard anyone under 6'7 and drop 50 whenever he felt like it. In Chicago that player was put on a team whose core got close to the Conference Finals without him. A great player still needs a good team to get results, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar once lost 44 games in his prime. In Washington MJ was an angry older player that got hurt for long parts of the season. If he had perfect healthy they might have slid in but even then it wasn't guaranteed. Without him much was left to first Rip Hamilton (good player, not a superstar) and then Stack (already discussed) and young bust Kwame Brown. GM Jordan left player Jordan with a bad supporting cast. Off the top of my head I can't name most anyone from those Wizard teams in spite of them being on TV way too much and it's because they weren't good players to be remembered.

[GOBB]

Stackhouse makes valid points. Basically he wanted to be the man/future of the franchise and MJ came along and ruined those chances. Whether anyone feels Stack was that kind of player is irrelevant. MJ was at the tail end of his career and still commanded franchise player attention. He felt a way when it happened with Iverson but understood. With MJ? He couldn’t.

[Lebowski]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgHHjz06C9E

Jerry was averaging 29.8 ppg with the Pistons. And with the Wizards he became a 21.5 ppg scorer. Before the trade many fans were saying that the Pistons got robbed in that trade because Stackhouse was a better player than Hamilton. Both Stackhouse and Collins reputations were ruined after that season. Jordan at the aged of 40 still wanted to averaged 25 field goal attempts per game

Yeah Stack should obviously have stayed with the Pistons, or gone to another team and led them to a championship.

At least one poster in this thread is "sober" enough..

[Reggie43]

Jordan didn't win six championships because people loved to hear him talk. What made him great is that he could guard anyone under 6'7 and drop 50 whenever he felt like it. In Chicago that player was put on a team whose core got close to the Conference Finals without him. A great player still needs a good team to get results, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar once lost 44 games in his prime. In Washington MJ was an angry older player that got hurt for long parts of the season. If he had perfect healthy they might have slid in but even then it wasn't guaranteed. Without him much was left to first Rip Hamilton (good player, not a superstar) and then Stack (already discussed) and young bust Kwame Brown. GM Jordan left player Jordan with a bad supporting cast. Off the top of my head I can't name most anyone from those Wizard teams in spite of them being on TV way too much and it's because they weren't good players to be remembered.

I actually agree with most of those things its just that they obviously could have played better even with the injuries. We also shouldnt forget that the East was at its lowest point in history those years wherein you dont even need a good team to make the playoffs.

Jordan in Washington was the only time I rooted for him and the things he did and didnt do there was insane especially the aforementioned bad gm moves wherein they could have traded for Elton but he didnt want to deal with the Bulls or atleast draft Gasol.

[DCL]

i remember stack was already hinting his views when he was playing with MJ in washington. it wasn't as blatant as this, but he was always talking shit about team chemistry issues in the media. and you know he wasn't referring to jahidi white. :oldlol:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Stackhouse makes valid points. Basically he wanted to be the man/future of the franchise and MJ came along and ruined those chances. Whether anyone feels Stack was that kind of player is irrelevant. MJ was at the tail end of his career and still commanded franchise player attention. He felt a way when it happened with Iverson but understood. With MJ? He couldn’t.
I want to be the QB for the Patriots. Does that mean they should give me a shot? Stack not being good enough to be a franchise player for a good team mattered. I'll concede that MJ could no longer carry the load but nothing Stack did in his career showed him to be a great first option in the NBA. The time in Washington was only one year. He played 18 seasons and was never that guy.

[hateraid]

Point is you can not flourish as an individual playing with Jordan. There really isn't any other argument to be made.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Point is you can not flourish as an individual playing with Jordan. There really isn't any other argument to be made.Pippen didn't flourish?

[hateraid]

Pippen didn't flourish?

He was much better as an individual player without Jordan. MVP calibre. With Jordan an ultra efficient number 2.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He was much better as an individual player without Jordan. MVP calibre. With Jordan an ultra efficient number 2.
He averaged 22 in the year without MJ. A career high but he had 20 and 21 ppg seasons playing alongside Jordan. And that's a far more serious reply than your stupid trolling deserves. Pip won 6 rings and was named one of the 50 greatest players of all time. I don't even know how many times he made the All-Star team. Sincerely hope that you're just trolling and not legitimately this stupid.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Stackhouse had one random high volume scoring season, the rest of his prime he was a low 20's scorer. Nobody really remembers any of it either. Horrible defender as well, think of him as a poor man's Bradley Beal. The only thing I remember about Stackhouse was being a very good 6th man for Mavs during their finals run in 06. He was always a low 40% shooter as well.

[Axe]

He averaged 22 in the year without MJ. A career high but he had 20 and 21 ppg seasons playing alongside Jordan. And that's a far more serious reply than your stupid trolling deserves. Pip won 6 rings and was named one of the 50 greatest players of all time. I don't even know how many times he made the All-Star team. Sincerely hope that you're just trolling and not legitimately this stupid.
:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He averaged 22 in the year without MJ. A career high but he had 20 and 21 ppg seasons playing alongside Jordan. And that's a far more serious reply than your stupid trolling deserves. Pip won 6 rings and was named one of the 50 greatest players of all time. I don't even know how many times he made the All-Star team. Sincerely hope that you're just trolling and not legitimately this stupid.

Yeah... thinking Pippen rather have 6 rings than a few more meaningless points.

The argument that MJ held Pippen back is funny. Nobody ever stopped Pip from scoring more. In fact, he was an MVP candidate for most of the 96 season. With Mike. Pippen could have scored more or done whatever he wanted from 99-03 but never did. Even when MJ was playing baseball he barely upped his scoring. Whose fault was that? :confusedshrug:

[HoopsNY]

Jerry Stackhouse talking about team chemistry is funny considering what a horrible leader, playmaker, and shooter he was. Stackhouse was just another volume slasher who couldn't play defense or lead a team. It's hilarious watching Bran stans bust a nut over a clown like Stackhouse.

Having said that, MJ's style of leadership sucks for some, works for others. It yielded results with a better cast that was on Chicago. There is a reason why those guys on Washington were that bad, with or without MJ. And no amount of tutelage was going to make Kwame Brown into an average basketball player, let alone a good one.

Jahidi White? Chris Whitney? 32 year old Byron Russell? I mean, good grief.

[HoopsNY]

Point is you can not flourish as an individual playing with Jordan. There really isn't any other argument to be made.

This is incredibly stupid. Rodman didn't flourish with Chicago? Pippen? What was Toni Kukoc doing in 1996? Not winning Sixth Man of the Year?

How do you muppets argue like this?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Yeah... thinking Pippen rather have 6 rings than a few more meaningless points.

The argument that MJ held Pippen back is funny. Nobody ever stopped Pip from scoring more. In fact, he was an MVP candidate for most of the 96 season. With Mike. Pippen could have scored more or done whatever he wanted from 99-03 but never did. Even when MJ was playing baseball he barely upped his scoring. Whose fault was that? :confusedshrug:
It's not even a "fault." Lots of players could have scored more points. Pippen was one of them. He's not perfect or completely unselfish (refusing to play when the play was called for Kukoc) but he was trying to keep teammates involved as a point forward. He never had the pne man army scoring machine approach to ball, it wasn't him. Certainly wouldn't hold that against him or even view it as a fault.

[TheMan]

Jerry Stackhouse
Kwame Brown
Orlando Woolridge
BJ Armstrong
Ron Harper
Pippen
Grant
Kukoc

List of victims from Jordan ball :(
Multiple NBA rings thanks to the GOAT :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's not even a "fault." Lots of players could have scored more points. Pippen was one of them. He's not perfect or completely unselfish (refusing to play when the play was called for Kukoc) but he was trying to keep teammates involved as a point forward. He never had the pne man army scoring machine approach to ball, it wasn't him. Certainly wouldn't hold that against him or even view it as a fault.

I'm fully aware of Pippen's ability. And "fault" was meant to be taken figuratively.

What I'm saying is the onus was on Pippen. Not Jordan. If he wanted to score more or putup bigger numbers, he could have. Pippen was his own man.

[bullettooth]

Jerry Stackhouse
Kwame Brown
Orlando Woolridge
BJ Armstrong
Ron Harper
Pippen
Grant
Kukoc

List of victims from Jordan ball :(

Of course a LeBum jocksniffer would come up with such a thing just to divert attention from 'LeBron Ball'

[DoctorP]

Jordan was the best but he wasn't an all around player or a point guard. He needed that dimension to succeed. Still, if not for injury his poorly constructed team was trending up

[Axe]

This is incredibly stupid. Rodman didn't flourish with Chicago? Pippen? What was Toni Kukoc doing in 1996? Not winning Sixth Man of the Year?

How do you muppets argue like this?
Phil jackson made them good players too during the dynasty

[hateraid]

He averaged 22 in the year without MJ. A career high but he had 20 and 21 ppg seasons playing alongside Jordan. And that's a far more serious reply than your stupid trolling deserves. Pip won 6 rings and was named one of the 50 greatest players of all time. I don't even know how many times he made the All-Star team. Sincerely hope that you're just trolling and not legitimately this stupid.

Jebuzz Cripes, can even ever have a civil discussion with someone who has a contrary POV? I still question how you are a mod.

Anyways, let me still indulge with a response and hopefully it doesn't aggravate you.

Did I say Pippen wasn't successful? No. I said he couldn't thrive as an INDIVIDUAL. I would say the same thing for teammates of players like Iverson or Kobe. players that command so much of the offense a team needs to be created through them. If we're going by the premise of 6 championships for Pippen, wasn't it on the coattail of Jordan? Those team accolades were a result of being one of the best complimentary players to play along side of an alpha score first perimeter player. We couldn't witness a full career on Pippen in his prime and what he could have accomplished playing a role of primary facilitator and main defensive stopper. For all we know he could have been the original Lebron. We only had a sample size while Jordan was retired, and quite possibly with his time in Portland. This is what I mean by he couldn't flourish. It's all hearsay at this point, but who know what could have been?
I would say the same thing for Curry had he played his whole career under Durant? In hindsight he revolutionized shooting but would he have been a 2X MVP along side Durant? I wouldn't think so. Durant would have been the clear alpha. Did Pippen have that potential? He was regarded as the best SF in his generation in the post Bird era. So quite possibly. Would he have won 6 championships? I highly doubt it. But he may have been on that Barkley, Malone tier of elite forwards, and possibly on Dr.J's teir of all time small forwards.
Again, playing with Jordan doesn't mean you can't be successful, it just means you need to defer to players like him. So maybe look at the context in which I post before you start to flip out

[Real Men Wear Green]

Top 50 all time...7 time All-Star...3 times All-NBA first team (7 total All-NBA)...6 Championships...but didn't flourish because he needed more 22ppg seasons.

I have always called posters like you stupid. The things you're saying are just dumb. Like, who is going to be remembered as having the greater career, Pip or T-Mac? McGrady was a great player, no disrespect to him but the answer is obvious and McGrady would tell you himself he would rather have championships.

[hateraid]

Top 50 all time...7 time All-Star...3 times All-NBA first team (7 total All-NBA)...6 Championships...but didn't flourish because he needed more 22ppg seasons.

Again missing the context like an angry idiot. Did I say anything about points? Did I say Pippen had a poor career? Or is this just the perceptive mod in you that brushes away that context? Is that how you measure greatness? Again, the Championships are a result of riding Jordan's coattail.


I have always called posters like you stupid. The things you're saying are just dumb. Like, who is going to be remembered as having the greater career, Pip or T-Mac? McGrady was a great player, no disrespect to him but the answer is obvious and McGrady would tell you himself he would rather have championships.

Did I say having individual accolades is greater than a Championship? No. The topic is thriving as an individual. Like the example of Curry with Durant scenario. But you're too dumb to pick up on it. If fact i know you'll just go back to the 6 Championships and completely miss my whole point again. Idiot

****, you think with Biden winning you'd lighten up a little.

[hateraid]

Yeah... thinking Pippen rather have 6 rings than a few more meaningless points.

The argument that MJ held Pippen back is funny. Nobody ever stopped Pip from scoring more. In fact, he was an MVP candidate for most of the 96 season. With Mike. Pippen could have scored more or done whatever he wanted from 99-03 but never did. Even when MJ was playing baseball he barely upped his scoring. Whose fault was that? :confusedshrug:

What context is missing is could Pippen have flourished to his maximum potential? The sample size we saw says he as an individual could have accomplished/ shined more. Like when I said if Steph would have played with durant his whole career, would his career have been the same? 2X MVP? Not likely. But same Curry. Did Durant hold back Curry their first year together?
These were the angles I saw in hindsight. Maybe it wouldn't have worked out that way, and Pippen without Jordan is Boris Diaw. But the small window Pippen had he did show that MVP calibre potential.

but let's just wait for RMWG repeat his point about 6 championships again.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Again missing the context like an angry idiot. Did I say anything about points? Did I say Pippen had a poor career? Or is this just the perceptive mod in you that brushes away that context? Is that how you measure greatness? Again, the Championships are a result of riding Jordan's coattail.So it's not about stats, it's not about winning, it's about...beimg one of a number of swingmen in NBA history to be the best player on his team for a longer time than the 1-2 seasons that Pip got. Somehow guys like VC and Paul Pierce flourished more than a guy with 6 rings that made the top 50 list.

See, that's a stupid thing to say. You don't get it because you are the stupid person saying it.


Did I say having individual accolades is greater than a Championship? No. The topic is thriving as an individual. Like the example of Curry with Durant scenario. But you're too dumb to pick up on it. If fact i know you'll just go back to the 6 Championships and completely miss my whole point again. Idiot

****, you think with Biden winning you'd lighten up a little.7 All-NBA awards, 3 of them first team, and 7 times All-Star isn't individual success? And that's on top of the 6 rings. I don't recall Pip enjoying the individual success in Houston or Portland. Or did I miss something? Please tell me how much greater a career Pip would have had if he was Penny or Grant Hill.

If Biden proposes some kind of anti-idiot legislation that kicks you off the internet he still wouldn't have much to do with this discussion but otherwise you are making enough stupidity in this thread just trying to talk about basketball. No need to speak on your other stupid opinions.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What context is missing is could Pippen have flourished to his maximum potential? The sample size we saw says he as an individual could have accomplished/ shined more. Like when I said if Steph would have played with durant his whole career, would his career have been the same? 2X MVP? Not likely. But same Curry. Did Durant hold back Curry their first year together?
These were the angles I saw in hindsight. Maybe it wouldn't have worked out that way, and Pippen without Jordan is Boris Diaw. But the small window Pippen had he did show that MVP calibre potential.

but let's just wait for RMWG repeat his point about 6 championships again.

96 Pippen had his best season up until all-star break. Better than 92, 94 and 95. His ankle and bad back eventually slowed him down, but he was a strong candidate for MVP.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-04-16-9604160144-story.html

Pippen ended up 5th which is not far from 3rd (where he finished in 94). Funny thing too is that he was also a 'darkhouse' candidate in 92. Again, with Mike.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1992-03-08-9201220274-story.htm

Still not seeing Jordan being responsible for what he didn't do. Scottie could have done whatever he wanted but was unselfish even without Mike. His numbers from 94-95 sort of prove that. Like I mentioned earlier, too, he had years 99-03 to up his averages. Never did though.

In the end? It depends on what "shine more" means to you. Because he was an all-star every year with MJ. Apart from a few more points, rebounds and asssists, I don't think Pippen ever wins an MVP. If you replaced Mike with another all-star guard, though, Chicago would have still competed for titles.


but let's just wait for RMWG repeat his point about 6 championships again

Its a valid argument though :confusedshrug: Unless you think Pippen wanted slightly better numbers and far less success :lol

[hateraid]

So it's not about stats, it's not about winning, it's about...beimg one of a number of swingmen in NBA history to be the best player on his team for a longer time than the 1-2 seasons that Pip got. Somehow guys like VC and Paul Pierce flourished more than a guy with 6 rings that made the top 50 list.

See, that's a stupid thing to say. You don't get it because you are the stupid person saying it.


It's the accumulation of both shit for brains. It's maximizing your potential and seeing what success could have been garnered having been the #1 option. See my Curry and Durant example. You still haven;t ackowledged it


7 All-NBA awards, 3 of them first team, and 7 times All-Star isn't individual success? And that's on top of the 6 rings. I don't recall Pip enjoying the individual success in Houston or Portland. Or did I miss something? Please tell me how much greater a career Pip would have had if he was Penny or Grant Hill.

Regardless of the individual hardware Penny and Hill were perceived as better individuals and treated as such even for their smaller window of success. This is the point I'm making in regards to flourishing. Would Pippen > Hill had he had the opportunity to be the focus of his team?

Even better, could Pippen had the potential to be greater than Dr.J? In hindsight we don't know. But he wasn't really given the opportunity to showcase that. Again, you'll likely miss this point because you're a narrow minded idiot


If Biden proposes some kind of anti-idiot legislation that kicks you off the internet he still wouldn't have much to do with this discussion but otherwise you are making enough stupidity in this thread just trying to talk about basketball. No need to speak on your other stupid opinions.

It's these type of idiotic responses that people don't take you seriously. I gave good examples to back my case up and they go right over your head and you repeat the word stupid over and over. Bravo moderator green.

[HoopsNY]

It's the accumulation of both shit for brains. It's maximizing your potential and seeing what success could have been garnered having been the #1 option. See my Curry and Durant example. You still haven;t ackowledged it

Your Steph to Durant example doesn't make sense. Steph won 2 MVPs and led his team to 67 wins and a title in 2015, and 73 wins and a finals appearance in 2016, almost winning a second title.

Pippen couldn't get past the second round in 1994, despite being one of three all-stars. Before MJ returned in 1995, Chicago was 34-31.

The two situations are not identical at all.


It's these type of idiotic responses that people don't take you seriously. I gave good examples to back my case up and they go right over your head and you repeat the word stupid over and over. Bravo moderator green.

You can't claim someone made an idiotic response after you tried to claim that Pippen didn't flourish playing alongside MJ, especially when he had opportunities to excel and lead his team into the finals (1994) or a top seed (1995) prior to MJ's return.

Pippen flourished playing alongside MJ. That's just a fact.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's the accumulation of both shit for brains. It's maximizing your potential and seeing what success could have been garnered having been the #1 option. See my Curry and Durant example. You still haven;t ackowledged itYour Curry example is stupid. Pip never showed any signs of being anything like a 30ppg scorer. It's just not him. I don't reply to every stupid thing I read.




Regardless of the individual hardware Penny and Hill were perceived as better individuals and treated as such even for their smaller window of success. This is the point I'm making in regards to flourishing. Would Pippen > Hill had he had the opportunity to be the focus of his team?Pip made 1st team All-NBA three times. Penny made All-NBA first team two times. Hill made All-NBA first team once. Pip made the NBA 50 list. Pip has 6 rings. You appear to have a hard time understanding that this is flourishing.


Even better, could Pippen had the potential to be greater than Dr.J? In hindsight we don't know. But he wasn't really given the opportunity to showcase that. Again, you'll likely miss this point because you're a narrow minded idiotHe absolutely was never going to be the level of scorer Dr J was. You don't have any undderstanding of what made Pippen great. He was a matural 3 that could defend anyone outside of the paint, run the team like a point guard and score reliably. He did not have the mentality of a 30ppg guy. Guys with that mentality score big no matter what situation they are put in. Pip had almost two seasons without MJ as the lead guy in Chi and topped out at 22 because that's just the kind of player that he was. No shame in that he's just not Dr J and was never going to be....but you should indeed be ashamed for the dumb crap you write in this topic




It's these type of idiotic responses that people don't take you seriously. I gave good examples to back my case up and they go right over your head and you repeat the word stupid over and over. Bravo moderator green.Eh, I think I'm taken seriously enough. I mean, I can't say that you've done a good job in this thread, and don't see a lot of support for your position. Maybe I'm wrong though. Some idiot Bron Stan may wander in and post something dumb for the sake of the agenda but it's not been much of that for a while now. Well, aside from you.

[Mr. Woke]

This thread is proof that King James is a better leader than MJ.

[kawhileonard2]

This thread is proof that King James is a better leader than MJ.

If so then he wouldn't hop from team to team and he would have won more than 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him.

[DoctorP]

If so then he wouldn't hop from team to team and he would have won more than 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him.

Bran is a Magic Johnson and Pippen type so hes better all around and that makes it easier to build a team around him but Jordan was the better player and best shooting guard of all time. Prime Jordan would beat Prime LeBron one on one. It's that simple.

[hateraid]

Your Steph to Durant example doesn't make sense. Steph won 2 MVPs and led his team to 67 wins and a title in 2015, and 73 wins and a finals appearance in 2016, almost winning a second title.

You somehow missed the point of if Steph played with Durant HIS WHOLE CAREER. That is the premise of my stance. We would have never seen a 2X MVP


Pippen couldn't get past the second round in 1994, despite being one of three all-stars. Before MJ returned in 1995, Chicago was 34-31.

The two situations are not identical at all.

Again, follow what I just posted



You can't claim someone made an idiotic response after you tried to claim that Pippen didn't flourish playing alongside MJ, especially when he had opportunities to excel and lead his team into the finals (1994) or a top seed (1995) prior to MJ's return.

Pippen flourished playing alongside MJ. That's just a fact.[/QUOTE]

[hateraid]

Your Curry example is stupid. Pip never showed any signs of being anything like a 30ppg scorer. It's just not him. I don't reply to every stupid thing I read.

I didn't realize scoring was the only measurement of of success. I guess Magic must have really sucked. You are pretty narrow if that's all you think I'm saying how Pippen could have flourished.



Pip made 1st team All-NBA three times. Penny made All-NBA first team two times. Hill made All-NBA first team once. Pip made the NBA 50 list. Pip has 6 rings. You appear to have a hard time understanding that this is flourishing.

Who's regarded as the better player(s)? How did Pippen win those 6 rings? Statistically he's had a great career. Again you missed my point completely and went back to the TEAMS 6 championships irrelevant point. Predictable


He absolutely was never going to be the level of scorer Dr J was. You don't have any undderstanding of what made Pippen great. He was a matural 3 that could defend anyone outside of the paint, run the team like a point guard and score reliably. He did not have the mentality of a 30ppg guy. Guys with that mentality score big no matter what situation they are put in. Pip had almost two seasons without MJ as the lead guy in Chi and topped out at 22 because that's just the kind of player that he was. No shame in that he's just not Dr J and was never going to be....but you should indeed be ashamed for the dumb crap you write in this topic

Again, Magic must have sucked. Scoring is THE only measuremnet of talent and greatness




Eh, I think I'm taken seriously enough. I mean, I can't say that you've done a good job in this thread, and don't see a lot of support for your position. Maybe I'm wrong though. Some idiot Bron Stan may wander in and post something dumb for the sake of the agenda but it's not been much of that for a while now. Well, aside from you.

You kiddin? Nobody takes you serious as you come off as a pompous asshole and a triggered snowflake. You're probably the most detested mod.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I didn't realize scoring was the only measurement of of success. I guess Magic must have really sucked. You are pretty narrow if that's all you think I'm saying how Pippen could have flourished.So what did Jordan prevent him from doing? Rebounding? Defending? Pip was already the pg of the offense. You don't have a point, you just wrote something stupid and are now flailing to defend it.





Who's regarded as the better player(s)? How did Pippen win those 6 rings? Statistically he's had a great career. Again you missed my point completely and went back to the TEAMS 6 championships irrelevant point. PredictableI point out Pip had as many First team All-NBA selections as Penny and Hill combined and you reply with this. Just take your L already, this is pathetic.




Again, Magic must have sucked. Scoring is THE only measuremnet of talent and greatnessScoring is the only thing that playing beside Jordan may have limited for Pippen. You have put forth the idiotic premise that Pip didn't flourish playing beside MJ. You have done a terrible job of defending that stupid statement.






You kiddin? Nobody takes you serious as you come off as a pompous asshole and a triggered snowflake. You're probably the most detested mod.You seem angry. Are you ok?

[kawhileonard2]

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/jordanpippen_090910.jpg




“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”




“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”



Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”

[HoopsNY]

You somehow missed the point of if Steph played with Durant HIS WHOLE CAREER. That is the premise of my stance. We would have never seen a 2X MVP

Pippen didn't play with MJ his entire career. He had almost 2 full seasons in his peak, to which he didn't accomplish what Steph did, nor did he lead his team to leaps and bounds the way Steph did.

MJ retired in 1998. What happened between 1999-03? Pippen had said in 1999 that he didn't want to be the leader. He wasn't that guy. I mean, you're acting as if there are no examples of Pippen having opportunity without MJ.

1994 he played on a team where he was on 1 of 3 All-Stars.

1999 he played on a team where he was on 1 of 3 HOF'ers.

After that he joins a team in Portland that also added Steve Smith and Detlef Schrempf, and won 59 games. They utterly blew it against LA, being up by 15 in the 4th quarter of game 7.

So with all that being said, the best he could do is the Western Conference Finals on a stacked team, but was somehow prevented from flourishing?

[HoopsNY]

I didn't realize scoring was the only measurement of of success. I guess Magic must have really sucked. You are pretty narrow if that's all you think I'm saying how Pippen could have flourished.




Who's regarded as the better player(s)? How did Pippen win those 6 rings? Statistically he's had a great career. Again you missed my point completely and went back to the TEAMS 6 championships irrelevant point. Predictable



Again, Magic must have sucked. Scoring is THE only measuremnet of talent and greatness





You kiddin? Nobody takes you serious as you come off as a pompous asshole and a triggered snowflake. You're probably the most detested mod.

Someone wanna tell this guy that Magic peaked at 24 PPG and had two other seasons where averaged over 22 PPG, which is more than anything Pippen can ever say for his own career?

This issue is very simple. You came in, guns blazing, talking about how Pippen didn't flourish alongside MJ. The reality is that within 10 seasons, Pippen managed to be, at least in your mind, a sub-par:

7x All-Star
7x All-NBA
8x All-Defensive
6 NBA titles

He had the opportunity to play without MJ. It didn't yield him the results that you somehow seem to think he would have achieved. If the argument is, "well he was past his prime in 1999," then we have 1993-95 as examples.

How is this not apparent to you that Pippen clearly flourished alongside MJ?

[HoopsNY]

Scoring is the only thing that playing beside Jordan may have limited for Pippen. You have put forth the idiotic premise that Pip didn't flourish playing beside MJ. You have done a terrible job of defending that stupid statement.

Which is a stretch. The reality is that MJ didn't hold back Pippen from scoring, either. Between 1992-98, Pippen averaged 20 PPG with MJ and about 22 PPG without him.

The fact is, Pippen wasn't an elite scorer capable of doing much more than that. If you add the greatest scorer of all-time, then naturally your PPG will fall some. That's just common sense. But this notion that MJ held him back from scoring couldn't be further from the truth.

Not to mention, Pippen had injuries in 1993, 1996, and 1998, which took away from some of his output. Otherwise, I'm confident that Pippen would have averaged about the same as he did without MJ.

So what are people really crying about?

[mehyaM24]

Basically this

yup. if anyone's ever held a job they pickup on this quick. jordan wasn't stackhouses boss on the floor, he was his peer. different ballgame.

since the conversation has moved to pippen, i'll just say that he was underrated. don't think pippen wins more without jordan or anything, but would have more seasons like he did in 1994 & 1995 - where he finished behind hakeem & ewing in MVP and was #2 in DPOY. the triangle deflates numbers (especially assists), but in an uptempo offense i could see pippen doing 25/9/9

[HoopsNY]

yup. if anyone's ever held a job they pickup on this quick. jordan wasn't stackhouses boss on the floor, he was his peer. different ballgame.

since the conversation has moved to pippen, i'll just say that he was underrated. don't think pippen wins more without jordan or anything, but would have more seasons like he did in 1994 & 1995 - where he finished behind hakeem & ewing in MVP and was #2 in DPOY. the triangle deflates numbers (especially assists), but in an uptempo offense i could see pippen doing 25/9/9

Yea, is it possible he has more higher MVP finishes? Sure. But do the Bulls consistently win 55 games? 1995 tells us a different story. And in that season, he finished 7th in MVP voting.

As for DPOY, then Pippen finished:

1992: 3rd (w/MJ)
1993: No votes (injured)
1994: 4th (w/o MJ)
1995: 2nd (w/o MJ mostly)
1996: 2nd (w/MJ)
1997: 4th (w/MJ)
1998: 9th (w/MJ, injured)
1999: 7th (w/o MJ)

So with MJ we see years he finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.

Without MJ we see years he finished 2nd, 4th, and 7th.

It's ultimately the same level of production when looking at DPOY votes and other things like All-NBA and scoring (a 2 point difference not factoring 3 years of injury alongside MJ). What's he scoring if he's fully healthy? 21 PPG with MJ as opposed to 22 PPG without him?

[mehyaM24]

Yea, is it possible he has more higher MVP finishes? Sure. But do the Bulls consistently win 55 games? 1995 tells us a different story. And in that season, he finished 7th in MVP voting.

As for DPOY, then Pippen finished:

1992: 3rd (w/MJ)
1993: No votes (injured)
1994: 4th (w/o MJ)
1995: 2nd (w/o MJ mostly)
1996: 2nd (w/MJ)
1997: 4th (w/MJ)
1998: 9th (w/MJ, injured)
1999: 7th (w/o MJ)

So with MJ we see years he finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.

Without MJ we see years he finished 2nd, 4th, and 7th.

It's ultimately the same level of production when looking at DPOY votes and other things like All-NBA and scoring (a 2 point difference not factoring 3 years of injury alongside MJ). What's he scoring if he's fully healthy? 21 PPG with MJ as opposed to 22 PPG without him?

to be fair, chicago lost grant to orlando. so pippen didn't have a quality replacement for either jordan or grant. good point on pippen being a dpoy candidate with mj - still, 95 is his best defensive season to date. #1 in defensive rating, #2 in defensive winshares & #3 overall in defensive plus minus. in a league dominated by bigs like hakeem/zo/mutombo/ewing that is pretty impressive.

with scoring, i don't think pippen averages a whole lot more sans jordan. chicago played at one of the slowest paces & pippen's priority was to be all around. he would have to play for a team whose offense wasn't predicated on a slow, half-court grind.

[Mr. Woke]

If so then he wouldn't hop from team to team and he would have won more than 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him.

The Cavs failed to give LeBron enough help, and LeBron had the misfortune of going up against one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history (the GSW dynasty).

Quit being a punk ass hater.

[2much_knowledge]

It doesn't matter what stackhouse thinks. Fact is Jordan with a very young hamilton, who missed weeks with a pulled groin, still was #2 in the East behind the Nets in 2002 and won 15 of 17 games when hamilton came back.
A healthy 39 y/o jordan with a pre prime hamilton was enough to be the 2nd best team and that is with both missing multiple games. Both healthy, they would be #1. And that bench was garbage. That says way more than jerrys opinion

[kawhileonard2]

The Cavs failed to give LeBron enough help, and LeBron had the misfortune of going up against one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history (the GSW dynasty).

Quit being a punk ass hater.

Dude had Shaq, Ben Wallace and then joined a bunch of stars in Kyrie, Love. Prove me wrong.

[Axe]

It doesn't matter what stackhouse thinks. Fact is Jordan with a very young hamilton, who missed weeks with a pulled groin, still was #2 in the East behind the Nets in 2002 and won 15 of 17 games when hamilton came back.
A healthy 39 y/o jordan with a pre prime hamilton was enough to be the 2nd best team and that is with both missing multiple games. Both healthy, they would be #1. And that bench was garbage. That says way more than jerrys opinion
Yep but doug collins still led that team to nowhere.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Dude had Shaq, Ben Wallace and then joined a bunch of stars in Kyrie, Love. Prove me wrong.
If you mention Cav Shaq as if he was the same player that led LA to the three peat it just proves that you're full of shit.

[2much_knowledge]

Yep but doug collins still led that team to nowhere.

His own teammate slipped and landed full force on his knee. Since that day, Mj averages dropped 10 pts, 3 ast and 3 rebounds. He should have retired right there. They started losing a bunch of games after that