Scoring champ and top 5 DPOY from 88-98' - will anyone reach this goat level of play?

[3ball]

Or will MJ be goat forever?

The goat standard of play is scoring champ and top 5 DPOY

Anything less falls short of goat-caliber

[ShawkFactory]

For your sake, I hope not.

[SouBeachTalents]

For your sake, I hope not.
:oldlol:

Look how shook he's been about a player he doesn't even consider top 10 like LeBron

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Or will MJ be goat forever?

The goat standard of play is scoring champ and top 5 DPOY

Anything less falls short of goat-caliber

Probably be GOAT forever. It's ok really; I got to watch Mike's entire career and enjoyed real basetball from the 80's and 90's. Hell March Madness is better basketball than this 3 pt / dunk league now.

[Axe]

1-9

[Manny98]

MJ took a 2 year break midway through so its less impressive

Will anyone reach 8 straight finals aka The Goat Standard

[3ball]

MJ took a 2 year break midway through so its less impressive

Will anyone reach 8 straight finals aka The Goat Standard


According to NBA.com's stats for the 2020 regular season, only 11% (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shots-dash/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) of Lebron's shots outside of 10 feet were "contested" (2-4 feet from closest defender) or "very tightly contested" (0-2 feet), compared to 31% (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/202695/shots-dash/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for Kawhi, 39% (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/201935/shots-dash/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for Harden, and 50% (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/201142/shots-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for KDGoat (2019 stats)

So it's not even close - Lebron avoids contested jumpers compared to his peers.

He avoids tough shots because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill and lacks the assassin mentality to go for it (seek to get hot/dominate)..

Ultimately, his inability to shoot contested jumpers prevents him from shooting well at high volume (when more contested shooting is required)... So he needs elite 1st options to play 2nd and 3rd option to take tough shots
.

[Shooter]

https://i.postimg.cc/0jmfxGWx/1-9skiddy.png

His 1-9 skidmark is a severe stain

[Shooter]

Can anyone reach this?


https://i.postimg.cc/3JchW5xZ/TOP_1._GOAT.png

Thanks

[HoopsNY]

According to NBA.com's stats for the 2020 regular season, only 11% (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shots-dash/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) of Lebron's shots outside of 10 feet were "contested" (2-4 feet from closest defender) or "very tightly contested" (0-2 feet), compared to 31% (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/202695/shots-dash/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for Kawhi, 39% (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/201935/shots-dash/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for Harden, and 50% (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/201142/shots-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for KDGoat (2019 stats)

So it's not even close - Lebron avoids contested jumpers compared to his peers.

He avoids tough shots because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill and lacks the assassin mentality to go for it (seek to get hot/dominate)..

Ultimately, his inability to shoot contested jumpers prevents him from shooting well at high volume (when more contested shooting is required)... So he needs elite 1st options to play 2nd and 3rd option to take tough shots
.

LeBron should be penalized for having a better shot selection? For someone who champions pre-2015 basketball, you sure have an odd way of defining great shot selection.

The fact that LeBron is selective with his shots and doesn't shoot at will like Kobe, thus producing inefficient numbers, is to his credit, not his detriment.

[dankok8]

LeBron should be penalized for having a better shot selection? For someone who champions pre-2015 basketball, you sure have an odd way of defining great shot selection.

The fact that LeBron is selective with his shots and doesn't shoot at will like Kobe, thus producing inefficient numbers, is to his credit, not his detriment.

Well it depends. Players who are too selective with their shots can hurt their team. Like for instance passing up a relatively open 20 footer with 2 seconds left on the clock to make a less talented teammate put up one. Players can also pad their efficiency by not taking heaves at the ends of quarters etc. Not saying this about Lebron but in general. Sometimes a superstar taking tough shots is actually adding value to their team because of these things. That's why counterintuitively a player taking a few more (bad) shots can actually make his team better. Kblaze was making this same point in another thread.

[3ball]

LeBron should be penalized for having a better shot selection? For someone who champions pre-2015 basketball, you sure have an odd way of defining great shot selection.

The fact that LeBron is selective with his shots and doesn't shoot at will like Kobe, thus producing inefficient numbers, is to his credit, not his detriment.


First of all.... being a basketball player that can't take contested jumpers is ridiculous and not worthy of respect from even recreational players.

Secondly..... a refusal to take contested jumpers explains why Lebron is often passive in clutch stretches and has many series where his clutch play caused series loss.. For example, the 2009 ECF saw him shoot 30% on jumpers in the fourth quarter and lose 3 fourth quarter leads, while choking in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the series.. Otoh, there's many series where Jordan had equal or greater statistical burden, but his jumpshooting dominated the clutch stretches and won the series (89' first round.. 97' Finals.. many more).. Btw, Lebron is 0-8 on clutch shots in the Finals (game-tying or go-ahead attempts in the last 24 seconds).

Thirdly.... Lebron prefers to drive the basketball and this plodding approach doesn't yield sufficient team offense to effectively compete with championship shooting and ball movement, nor does it fit with certain player types (fellow ball-handlers with spotty shooting like Wade, Hughes, Ingram, IT).

To summarize, his sub-par jumpshooting skill results in a weaker dribble-drive brand that yields weaker clutch ability and poor fit with teammates, which ultimately results in lower team ceilings (4/10).

Heck, the Spurs exploited Lebron and Wade's inability to play the "shooter" role, whereas Jordan couldn't be exploited because he had no weaknesses - he was elite on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with ball-handlers and shooters alike.. Ultimately, players with elite jumpshooting skill can fit with anyone, which is why Klay averaged 22 ppg as 3rd option and the Kyrie/Harden/KD average 25 each - otoh, Lebron destroyed 3rd options like Love/Bosh because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill to fit with anyone....

[Shooter]

Can anyone reach this?


https://i.postimg.cc/3JchW5xZ/TOP_1._GOAT.png

Thanks

OP?

[DoctorP]

King kong is the gayest

jordan the GOAT

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CllRe7KWEAAihOU.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/gjtmM8SY/Cll-Re7-KWEAAih-OU.jpg

The lesson will be repeated until learned.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FuYJ1U2YZ8

[DoctorP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdPQ3QxDZ1s


threepeats :

Jordan 2
Kong 0

It's over.

[HoopsNY]

Well it depends. Players who are too selective with their shots can hurt their team. Like for instance passing up a relatively open 20 footer with 2 seconds left on the clock to make a less talented teammate put up one. Players can also pad their efficiency by not taking heaves at the ends of quarters etc. Not saying this about Lebron but in general. Sometimes a superstar taking tough shots is actually adding value to their team because of these things. That's why counterintuitively a player taking a few more (bad) shots can actually make his team better. Kblaze was making this same point in another thread.

I'm curious to read what Kblaze said. Can you post it here?

[tpols]

LeBron should be penalized for having a better shot selection? For someone who champions pre-2015 basketball, you sure have an odd way of defining great shot selection.

The fact that LeBron is selective with his shots and doesn't shoot at will like Kobe, thus producing inefficient numbers, is to his credit, not his detriment.

Those guys (KD, Harden, and Kawhi) all scored on better efficiency than LeBron, so his shot selection isn't better. It is true he defers all tough shots to protect his numbers and still falls short.

[guy]

Well it depends. Players who are too selective with their shots can hurt their team. Like for instance passing up a relatively open 20 footer with 2 seconds left on the clock to make a less talented teammate put up one. Players can also pad their efficiency by not taking heaves at the ends of quarters etc. Not saying this about Lebron but in general. Sometimes a superstar taking tough shots is actually adding value to their team because of these things. That's why counterintuitively a player taking a few more (bad) shots can actually make his team better. Kblaze was making this same point in another thread.

This. Its why I think his 2014 Finals is so overrated and the 100% pass he gets for losing this is undeserved. By being too passive, an individual's efficiency can be inflated at the expense of his team's overall efficiency. In some cases, the alternative to Lebron taking a relatively worse then average shot for him is Mario Chalmers taking an even much more terrible shot for example.

Its no coincidence to me that when Lebron was much more aggressive in the 2015 Finals, they had a much more competitive series despite him having worse efficiency and playing with worse teammates and against similar competition.

[SouBeachTalents]

This. Its why I think his 2014 Finals is so overrated and the 100% pass he gets for losing this is undeserved. By being too passive, an individual's efficiency can be inflated at the expense of his team's overall efficiency. In some cases, the alternative to Lebron taking a relatively worse then average shot for him is Mario Chalmers taking an even much more terrible shot for example.

Its no coincidence to me that when Lebron was much more aggressive in the 2015 Finals, they had a much more competitive series despite him having worse efficiency and playing with worse teammates and against similar competition.
Just for reference he only averaged one less FGA per game in the '14 Finals than he did in last years Finals. I'm not disagreeing in principle that he could've taken more attempts, but those last 3 games were so lopsided I'm skeptical it would've made any significant difference to the outcome.

And tbh, the biggest reason the '15 Finals were more competitive than '14 was the Spurs played significantly better than the Warriors did, which imo was a bigger factor than LeBron's aggressiveness. It's not a coincidence the two games the Cavs won Curry was atrocious for 6 of the 8 quarters. The Spurs shooting splits from those Finals were otherworldly, they even dwarfed the Durant Warriors

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Mike's motor in 88 was insane. Pull up a highlight of his that year and he's everywhere on the floor. Like a madman.

There's a game vs Magic and LA where he scored in the high 30's, but every basketball either had a player draped to him or was at the ring with defenders in a poster. Reckless abandon, tenfold.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Mike's motor in 88 was insane. Pull up a highlight of his that year and he's everywhere on the floor. Like a madman.

There's a game vs Magic and LA where he scored in the high 30's, but every basketball either had a player draped to him or was at the ring with defenders in a poster. Reckless abandon, tenfold.

Meant basket by the way.

Couldn't find the game in its entirety but here are a few examples of what I'm talking about;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziX6jaEWqPM
1:18
2:46
4:14
7:59
10:12
10:47

Some other plays are MJ in the open court, flying by everyone. You can see that in 88 he had that turnaround J down pat. Kind of strange that people say he wasn't a jumpshooter until the 90s. Guess those hangtime dunks left a big impression

[2much_knowledge]

MJ took a 2 year break midway through so its less impressive

Will anyone reach 8 straight finals aka The Goat Standard

It makes everything more impressive. He is soooo far ahead of everyone in accolades while retiring twice in his prime. Thats the real goat standard

[3ball]

Just for reference he only averaged one less FGA per game in the '14 Finals than he did in last years Finals. I'm not disagreeing in principle that he could've taken more attempts, but those last 3 games were so lopsided I'm skeptical it would've made any significant difference to the outcome.

And tbh, the biggest reason the '15 Finals were more competitive than '14 was the Spurs played significantly better than the Warriors did, which imo was a bigger factor than LeBron's aggressiveness. It's not a coincidence the two games the Cavs won Curry was atrocious for 6 of the 8 quarters. The Spurs shooting splits from those Finals were otherworldly, they even dwarfed the Durant Warriors


The Heat were completely "in" the series and competitive thru 2 games

Now do you know what Jordan's stats were for Games 3-5 of the 93' Finals?.... 48/10/6

That kept the Bulls' offense on par with Phoenix's juggernaut offense

This was necessary because teammates are always broken down on the 3rd run (Pippen had a 2.0 bpm in those Playoffs and shot 45% true shooting in the Finals)

So Lebron had the blueprint to 3-peat (high volume), but still took 17 shots a game.. aka he's nowhere near Jordan.. he can't take the high volume because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill and the contested-shooting required of high volume

[DoctorP]

the heat were completely "in" the series and competitive thru 2 games

now do you know what jordan's stats were for games 3-5 of the 93' finals?.... 48/10/6

that kept the bulls' offense on par with phoenix's juggernaut offense

this was necessary because teammates are always broken down on the 3rd run (pippen had a 2.0 bpm in those playoffs and shot 45% true shooting in the finals)

so lebron had the blueprint to 3-peat (high volume), but still took 17 shots a game.. Aka he's nowhere near jordan.. He can't take the high volume because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill and the contested-shooting required of high volume

boom

[SouBeachTalents]

The Heat were completely "in" the series and competitive thru 2 games

Now do you know what Jordan's stats were for Games 3-5 of the 93' Finals?.... 48/10/6

That kept the Bulls' offense on par with Phoenix's juggernaut offense

This was necessary because teammates are always broken down on the 3rd run (Pippen had a 2.0 bpm in those Playoffs and shot 45% true shooting in the Finals)

So Lebron had the blueprint to 3-peat (high volume), but still took 17 shots a game.. aka he's nowhere near Jordan.. he can't take the high volume because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill and the contested-shooting required of high volume
The irony of your post is that the Bulls lost 2 of the 3 games that you referenced, while winning in Jordan's 2 lowest shooting games :lol Which proves my point that a high volume of attempts doesn't automatically mean you'll win the game, basketball has more nuance than that

[DoctorP]

The irony of your post is that the Bulls lost 2 of the 3 games that you referenced, while winning in Jordan's 2 lowest shooting games :lol Which proves my point that a high volume of attempts doesn't automatically mean you'll win the game, basketball has more nuance than that

6 for 6.

[3ball]

The irony of your post is that the Bulls lost 2 of the 3 games that you referenced, while winning in Jordan's 2 lowest shooting games :lol: Which proves my point that a high volume of attempts doesn't automatically mean you'll win the game, basketball has more nuance than that





The Game 3 loss was a triple-overtime game, so his highest volume game was the Game 4 win (double-nickel).

And btw, he shot high volume every game in that series (26-37 fga), so you're being deceptive, as usual.. he was nowhere near the 17 fga that lebron had.

And no one said high volume wins every game, but it's the only way to win when teammates aren't up to snuff, like on the back of a 3-peat run..

it's no coincidence that jordan's highest volume Finals were 93' and 98', when teammates were broken down and abandoned him.. So Lebron saw the high volume blue print succeed in 3-peating twice, yet he decided to do the opposite in his 3-peat opportunity and got destroyed by record amount as a result.

Carry on

[3ball]

The Game 3 loss was a triple-overtime game, so his highest volume game was the Game 4 win (double-nickel).

And btw, he shot high volume every game in that series (26-37 fga), so you're being deceptive, as usual.. he was nowhere near the 17 fga that lebron had.

And no one said high volume wins every game, but it's the only way to win when teammates aren't up to snuff, like on the back of a 3-peat run..

it's no coincidence that jordan's highest volume Finals were 93' and 98', when teammates were broken down and abandoned him.. So Lebron saw the high volume blue print succeed in 3-peating twice, yet he decided to do the opposite in his 3-peat opportunity and got destroyed by record amount as a result.

Carry on


Where's SouBeachTalents... he ran

[3ball]

SouBeach runs when you destroy him.. salty bitch