CP3 with a nod to a "killer" all-time assist number of 15,806 from John Stockton.

[GreatHILL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExDdVNhXAAAHMjt?format=jpg


Said his number is gonna keep climbing.

"I aint done. I'm gonna keep hoopin'.

:rockon::pimp:

[Gimmedarock]

He ain’t got no ring but Paul is probably the GOAT point guard. I mean a play who sets other guys up and runs the offense. Curry will go down as the best overall point guard but Paul is the best at being an old school floor general.

[999Guy]

He ain’t got no ring but Paul is probably the GOAT point guard. I mean a play who sets other guys up and runs the offense. Curry will go down as the best overall point guard but Paul is the best at being an old school floor general.

He’s the best overall. By his mid-20’s no point guard in league history could run an offense as well as him while really being an elite defender. And then his game is strong in the playoffs.

Most complete PG ever and it’s not even close.

This guy is an all-star while being slow and 6-foot. **** that, he’s not a defensive liability at all while being slow and 6-foot. When he was actually fast? Forget about it, GOAT PG. elite at ****ing everything.

Only peak Jordan is gonna be comparable as far as guards to him on skill, motor, effort, intelligence, resilience in the playoffs.

And he never even fully peaked. Blew his knee out before the extensive game film and analytics era. He would’ve been unthinkably good by 2013 if not for that. Well he still was but he’d have MVP’s.

[Mr. Woke]

Gimme CP3 over Stockton any day of the week.

[dankok8]

His longevity is making him climb the all-time list but his ceiling is about #30 all-time. Never leading his team past the 2nd round of the playoffs really limits how high one can put him on the all-time list. And his longevity is somewhat of a mirage as well given how many postseasons (almost half) he was injured. The number of times he was healthy in the playoff is actually not that many.

[999Guy]

His longevity is making him climb the all-time list but his ceiling is about #30 all-time. Never leading his team past the 2nd round of the playoffs really limits how high one can put him on the all-time list. And his longevity is somewhat of a mirage as well given how many postseasons (almost half) he was injured. The number of times he was healthy in the playoff is actually not that many.

Now how much fun did you have typing this. This is true (not the retarded ATG ‘ceiling’ stuff), but no one gives a shit because it’s boring. I was the only one who would’ve ever responded to this.

The man was possibly the most complete guard ever and your discussion is best held with a physician. Go give a fat man a prostate exam and say this exact Post, that’s the only time someone would give a shit.

And matter of fact, do you realize you brought up second round playoff series in a milestone thread? Ugh, just shut up.

And I’ll give you this challenge doctor Hartman: Analyze Stephen Curry‘s playoff career injury history and then try to justify this post and don’t sound retarded while doing it.

[mehyaM24]

the only pg's i would rank over chris paul are magic & steph. i never watched oscar so no comment there but paul is better than stockton, kidd, nash & isiah. thomas has the championships however played on better teams. cp3 scores just as well, but is the better playmaker & defender.

paul also has a higher peak Value Over Replacement, bpm & per - over all those guards.

[Stanley Kobrick]

His longevity is making him climb the all-time list but his ceiling is about #30 all-time. Never leading his team past the 2nd round of the playoffs really limits how high one can put him on the all-time list. And his longevity is somewhat of a mirage as well given how many postseasons (almost half) he was injured. The number of times te was healthy in the playoff is actually not that many.
the first season Chris Paul had another Top 5 player on his team they were one game from the Finals and possibly a championship. a feat that John Stockton only accomplished twice in 17 seasons alongside a Top 20 all time player

[Micku]

He’s the best overall. By his mid-20’s no point guard in league history could run an offense as well as him while really being an elite defender. And then his game is strong in the playoffs.

Most complete PG ever and it’s not even close.

This guy is an all-star while being slow and 6-foot. **** that, he’s not a defensive liability at all while being slow and 6-foot. When he was actually fast? Forget about it, GOAT PG. elite at ****ing everything.

Only peak Jordan is gonna be comparable as far as guards to him on skill, motor, effort, intelligence, resilience in the playoffs.

And he never even fully peaked. Blew his knee out before the extensive game film and analytics era. He would’ve been unthinkably good by 2013 if not for that. Well he still was but he’d have MVP’s.


I don't think he's better than Magic at running the offense. Magic was better at controlling the pace, finding guys, and picking his spots to shoot imo. CP3 prefers to run the half court offense. He could do a faster pace, and has done it before. But imo, Magic does both of those better and could punish defense in his era with both styles. What cp3 is better at is the defense. Although I don't know the details, CP3 seems to be better at calling out plays and communicating on defense. He is a vocal leader on the other side. I dunno if I can say the same thing about Magic on that side. But offense? That's Magic to me.

But CP3 is great tho. Definitely one of the bests. One of the best floor generals I ever seen.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Everywhere dude goes, his teams contend. :applause:

Used to think Chuck was overstating that 'Best IGL' stuff, but he was right. State Farm Paul is one of the best leaders hands down.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I don't think he's better than Magic at running the offense. Magic was better at controlling the pace, finding guys, and picking his spots to shoot imo. CP3 prefers to run the half court offense. He could do a faster pace, and has done it before. But imo, Magic does both of those better and could punish defense in his era with both styles. What cp3 is better at is the defense. Although I don't know the details, CP3 seems to be better at calling out plays and communicating on defense. He is a vocal leader on the other side. I dunno if I can say the same thing about Magic on that side. But offense? That's Magic to me.

But CP3 is great tho. Definitely one of the bests. One of the best floor generals I ever seen.

He said running an elite offense WHILE playing elite PG defense. Magic was better than CP3 overall but he couldn't sniff his jockstrap defensively.

CP3 is the most complete PG of all-time and the most skilled. Fact that he's still a top 10, top 15 at worst player while still playing good defense at 35yo as a 5'11 170 pound man and not being a great athlete anymore is one of the greatest feats ever

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Now how much fun did you have typing this. This is true (not the retarded ATG ‘ceiling’ stuff), but no one gives a shit because it’s boring. I was the only one who would’ve ever responded to this.

The man was possibly the most complete guard ever and your discussion is best held with a physician. Go give a fat man a prostate exam and say this exact Post, that’s the only time someone would give a shit.

And matter of fact, do you realize you brought up second round playoff series in a milestone thread? Ugh, just shut up.

And I’ll give you this challenge doctor Hartman: Analyze Stephen Curry‘s playoff career injury history and then try to justify this post and don’t sound retarded while doing it.

His defense wasn't actually elite as a Hornet. He got All D selection and high steal numbers but he was more of a gambler then. In LA and Houston he was elite. Even OKC and Phoenix CP3 is better defensively

[dankok8]

Now how much fun did you have typing this. This is true (not the retarded ATG ‘ceiling’ stuff), but no one gives a shit because it’s boring. I was the only one who would’ve ever responded to this.

The man was possibly the most complete guard ever and your discussion is best held with a physician. Go give a fat man a prostate exam and say this exact Post, that’s the only time someone would give a shit.

And matter of fact, do you realize you brought up second round playoff series in a milestone thread? Ugh, just shut up.

And I’ll give you this challenge doctor Hartman: Analyze Stephen Curry‘s playoff career injury history and then try to justify this post and don’t sound retarded while doing it.

Curry is a 2x MVP and 3x champion who is about twice the basketball player.


the only pg's i would rank over chris paul are magic & steph. i never watched oscar so no comment there but paul is better than stockton, kidd, nash & isiah. thomas has the championships however played on better teams. cp3 scores just as well, but is the better playmaker & defender.

paul also has a higher peak Value Over Replacement, bpm & per - over all those guards.

Oscar and Thomas are clearly better than Paul. The only way to have Paul over Thomas is to give CP3 credit for something he never did. You'd have to look past the numerous playoff series Isiah dominated, the 25 points he scored in the fourth quarter of a Finals game while hobbling, averaging 27/6/7 for another Finals etc. It's not about better teammates. It's that Chris Paul never played as well as Isiah in key moments. You can do mental gymnastics and say that if he had better teammates he could have but then you're giving him implied credit for something he never did. There are serious question marks about CP3's durability and reliability in the playoffs. He's shrunk in several playoff moments.

Nash and Paul are on the same tier but I'd give the edge to Nash who led a top 2 offense for 9 straight seasons in Dallas and Phoenix. He also didn't have underperformances or injuries in the playoffs. I don't have a problem with CP3 over him but I disagree. Stockton I also have over Paul as of now because his longevity is just too much. Stockton almost never got hurt. Paul can pass him though because I don't see Stockton as a great player at his peak. Kidd is in the same tier but I'm not high on defense for PG's and Kidd could never pressure defenses with his scoring. A great floor general but Paul to me is better. There's a few other guys you didn't mention like Payton, Cousy, and Archibald.

My PG list: (spaces designate tiers; players within the same tier are arguable)

1. Magic

2. Oscar
3. Curry

4. Thomas

5. Nash
6. Stockton
7. Paul
8. Payton
9. Cousy
10. Kidd



the first season Chris Paul had another Top 5 player on his team they were one game from the Finals and possibly a championship. a feat that John Stockton only accomplished twice in 17 seasons alongside a Top 20 all time player

Paul was the 2nd best player on that team. It's also worth noting that it was CP3's injury that probably cost the Rockets a title.

[mehyaM24]

@dankok8

paul & isiah have similar playoff numbers, but paul has greater impact overall. by most advanced metrics cp3's game is on another level, so these "key moments" you are talking about sounds like nostalgia. and its got to be about teammates. otherwise isiah would have 2 fmvps with his 2 championships. instead he has 1.

agree to disagree with the other gaurds. paul has proven his worth on every team he's played for. nash? paul is a better 2-way player. stockton? paul is a MUCH better scorer. his peak play kind of prove that. he's the only little guy competing with bigs & swingmen when it comes to ATG numbers.

paul's injuries are also exaggerated a bit. he's gotten hurt more than some of the names mentioned, but was healthy with the clippers. which is the bulk of his prime.

[dankok8]

@dankok8

paul & isiah have similar playoff numbers, but paul has greater impact overall. by most advanced metrics cp3's game is on another level, so these "key moments" you are talking about sounds like nostalgia. and its got to be about teammates. otherwise isiah would have 2 fmvps with his 2 championships. instead he has 1.

agree to disagree with the other gaurds. paul has proven his worth on every team he's played for. nash? paul is a better 2-way player. stockton? paul is a MUCH better scorer. his peak play kind of prove that. he's the only little guy competing with bigs & swingmen when it comes to ATG numbers.

paul's injuries are also exaggerated a bit. he's gotten hurt more than some of the names mentioned, but was healthy with the clippers. which is the bulk of his prime.

Impact metrics mean what exactly? What does BPM mean? PER? WS? If Paul elevated his game in key moments he would be as good or better than Thomas. But he didn't elevate his game. When it mattered in the playoffs, Thomas was consistently better. 25 points in the 4th quarter of a Finals game in 1998 is an NBA record. Isiah's 27/6/7 ppg average in the 1990 Finals is the kind of series that like a dozen players in history ever had on a championship team. I don't think you are comprehending the magnitude of some of those performances... on the biggest stage. Talent isn't everything. Otherwise guys like Nique and T-Mac could be top 30 players as well.

Not sure what you mean by healthy with the Clippers. He was injured in the 2012, 2015 and 2016 playoffs which is half of the time.

From 2008-2017 was 10 straight years Paul was in his prime and led a team. He lost in the 1st or 2nd round 9 times and missed the playoffs 1 time (2010). Another crazy thing is that 8 out of 9 teams he lost to in the playoffs proceeded to lose the very next round. The only team that won 1 more round after is the 2009 Nuggets. Paul didn't just not win a title or come close to winning a title but he never even lost to a really really good team in that span. I'm sorry but I can't gloss over that.

[mehyaM24]

Impact metrics mean what exactly? What does BPM mean? PER? WS? If Paul elevated his game in key moments he would be as good or better than Thomas. But he didn't elevate his game. When it mattered in the playoffs, Thomas was consistently better. 25 points in the 4th quarter of a Finals game in 1998 is an NBA record. Isiah's 27/6/7 ppg average in the 1990 Finals is the kind of series that like a dozen players in history ever had on a championship team. I don't think you are comprehending the magnitude of some of those performances... on the biggest stage. Talent isn't everything. Otherwise guys like Nique and T-Mac could be top 30 players as well.

Not sure what you mean by healthy with the Clippers. He was injured in the 2012, 2015 and 2016 playoffs which is half of the time.

From 2008-2017 was 10 straight years Paul was in his prime and led a team. He lost in the 1st or 2nd round 9 times and missed the playoffs 1 time (2010). Another crazy thing is that 8 out of 9 teams he lost to in the playoffs proceeded to lose the very next round. The only team that won 1 more round after is the 2009 Nuggets. Paul didn't just not win a title or come close to winning a title but he never even lost to a really really good team in that span. I'm sorry but I can't gloss over that.

they're your box numbers adjusted per 100 possessions. bpm/rpm for example attempts to separate team from individual using regression. playoff paul's PRIME numbers are actually better than isiah's so what you're saying doesn't match reality. you're just ignoring competition & help. why do we give isiah FULL credit for his 2 titles when he was only fmvp once?

you're also saying paul was injured "half the time" yet played every game in the 2012 playoffs. in 2015 he eliminated the spurs who were favored & averaged 23/8/5 shooting 51% from the field. and in game 7, paul had 27/6 with a game-winner. how is that not a key moment? lol

admittedly he's had his share of bad play, but paul has never been on a team as good as the bad boy pistons. you can argue the rockets were, but i wouldn't.

[tpols]

And what's crazy is his scoring is almost as good as his passing. When he gets those mismatch isos it's game over.

[bizil]

I don't think he's better than Magic at running the offense. Magic was better at controlling the pace, finding guys, and picking his spots to shoot imo. CP3 prefers to run the half court offense. He could do a faster pace, and has done it before. But imo, Magic does both of those better and could punish defense in his era with both styles. What cp3 is better at is the defense. Although I don't know the details, CP3 seems to be better at calling out plays and communicating on defense. He is a vocal leader on the other side. I dunno if I can say the same thing about Magic on that side. But offense? That's Magic to me.

But CP3 is great tho. Definitely one of the bests. One of the best floor generals I ever seen.

I agree! Magic is the GOAT PG. And peak-prime wise the best PG ever. BUT when it comes to combining passing, scoring, and defense as a package, CP3 is right there with GP and Frazier as the best blend of those attributes. One of the rare pass first PG's who can also turn into a great scorer. He just puts the huge premium on his floor game. PG's like him are a dying breed in today's game. And skill for skill on BOTH SIDES of the court, he's the most skilled PG ever. I'm talking his handles, scoring skillset, passing ability, and defense as a package. When u look at Magic, Oscar, Steph, Isiah, Stock, Russ, Nash, GP, Frazier, Tiny, Cousy, etc. NONE OF THEM are as SKILLED across the board like CP3. That's not saying he's THE BEST PG ever peak-prime wise. Just saying he has more tools than all the other GOAT PG's!

[dankok8]

they're your box numbers adjusted per 100 possessions. bpm/rpm for example attempts to separate team from individual using regression. playoff paul's PRIME numbers are actually better than isiah's so what you're saying doesn't match reality. you're just ignoring competition & help. why do we give isiah FULL credit for his 2 titles when he was only fmvp once?

you're also saying paul was injured "half the time" yet played every game in the 2012 playoffs. in 2015 he eliminated the spurs who were favored & averaged 23/8/5 shooting 51% from the field. and in game 7, paul had 27/6 with a game-winner. how is that not a key moment? lol

admittedly he's had his share of bad play, but paul has never been on a team as good as the bad boy pistons. you can argue the rockets were, but i wouldn't.

I know what those stats are. It's just that there is no use for them if you compare the entire basic boxscore. Isiah and Paul put up similar numbers except Paul had better shooting efficiency. But Thomas was much much better in those key moments to an extent that he was legendary and Paul was underwhelming. Isiah was always the best player on the Bay Boys. Who won FMVP is irrelevant. That's like saying Parker was better than Duncan in 2007. Everyone knew Thomas was the best. That's why everyone thinks he should have been on the Dream Team.

Paul was injured and played terribly in the 2nd round of the 2012 playoffs and got swept by the Spurs. 2015 against the Spurs is the best he ever played. Didn't his team lose a 3-1 lead in the next round though and actually got that lead with Paul sitting games or playing very little?

The 2018 Rockets don't matter because Paul was a clear #2 on that team. And besides those Rockets were a 65-win +8.21 SRS juggernaut. They were as good as the Bay Boy Pistons and they probably didn't win a title because CP3 got hurt. Paul's entire playoff career consists of chokes, disappointments and injuries.

[BigShotBob]

CP3 had a lot of moments when he wasn't clutch at all. Especially in the playoffs. Overall his impact is great but it seems whenever it comes down to crunch time that "legendary impact" suddenly goes away and then it's his teammate's fault.

Infamous choke against the Thunder.

Blew a 3-1 lead to the Rockets (blew a game to Josh Smith of all people).

Injuries have marred his playoff career as well.

Anyone arguing CP3 over Zeke have literally never watched Zeke play. In terms of skill Zeke is the greatest PG ever. He's played in an extremely uptempo offense and then moved to a slow, grind it out, ball-stopping offense. What was also impressive about Zeke was how effortlessly he could play the two with Vinnie Johnson or Dumars playing the PG and his game wouldn't suffer at all.

CP3 to me is around that Jason Kidd, Steve Nash level, expect you could argue that either one was better.

[bizil]

I know what those stats are. It's just that there is no use for them if you compare the entire basic boxscore. Isiah and Paul put up similar numbers except Paul had better shooting efficiency. But Thomas was much much better in those key moments to an extent that he was legendary and Paul was underwhelming. Isiah was always the best player on the Bay Boys. Who won FMVP is irrelevant. That's like saying Parker was better than Duncan in 2007. Everyone knew Thomas was the best. That's why everyone thinks he should have been on the Dream Team.

Paul was injured and played terribly in the 2nd round of the 2012 playoffs and got swept by the Spurs. 2015 against the Spurs is the best he ever played. Didn't his team lose a 3-1 lead in the next round though and actually got that lead with Paul sitting games or playing very little?

The 2018 Rockets don't matter because Paul was a clear #2 on that team. And besides those Rockets were a 65-win +8.21 SRS juggernaut. They were as good as the Bay Boy Pistons and they probably didn't win a title because CP3 got hurt. Paul's entire playoff career consists of chokes, disappointments and injuries.

Yep. Zeke was ALWAYS the best player on those Pistons teams. As the team got better AND created that epic defense, Zeke PLAYED to that strength. He didn't need to put up 21 PPG-13APG type of seasons anymore to win. PLUS he had Joe D in the backcourt with him. Skill for skill two way wise, one of the best SG's ever. Who could swing to the PG while Zeke played off the ball. And Joe could still get you 17-20 PPG. So once again, Zeke DIDN'T have to be as dominant offensively. And while CP3 can turn up the dial scoring wise on an elite level, Zeke CLEARLY has the edge on him in that regard. IN that era, Zeke was one of the top 10 MOST FEARED perimeter scorers in the world. He and Magic both. They just happened to be pass first PG's who didn't average 25+PPG. BUT when it was time to dominate scoring, BOTH could do it on a supreme alpha dog level!

[bizil]

CP3 had a lot of moments when he wasn't clutch at all. Especially in the playoffs. Overall his impact is great but it seems whenever it comes down to crunch time that "legendary impact" suddenly goes away and then it's his teammate's fault.

Infamous choke against the Thunder.

Blew a 3-1 lead to the Rockets (blew a game to Josh Smith of all people).

Injuries have marred his playoff career as well.

Anyone arguing CP3 over Zeke have literally never watched Zeke play. In terms of skill Zeke is the greatest PG ever. He's played in an extremely uptempo offense and then moved to a slow, grind it out, ball-stopping offense. What was also impressive about Zeke was how effortlessly he could play the two with Vinnie Johnson or Dumars playing the PG and his game wouldn't suffer at all.

CP3 to me is around that Jason Kidd, Steve Nash level, expect you could argue that either one was better.

Zeke is the better player. BUT skill for skill on both sides of the court (scoring skillset, handles, defense, passing), CP3 has the edge on Zeke. The scoring skillset (Zeke is the better scorer though) and defense gives him the edge. BUT I agree Zeke was the better player. He could be the ultimate floor general like Stockton. BUT could dominate games scoring like Iverson when he DAMN WELL FELT LIKE IT! When he moved off the rock while Joe D or Vinnie ran the PG, he changed his thought process EFFORTLESSLY!

[999Guy]

Isiah Thomas is not a better scorer than Chris Paul on literally any level.


He’s categorically and obviously worse. You’d only sound stupid to try and avoid that.

[mehyaM24]

I know what those stats are. It's just that there is no use for them if you compare the entire basic boxscore. Isiah and Paul put up similar numbers except Paul had better shooting efficiency. But Thomas was much much better in those key moments to an extent that he was legendary and Paul was underwhelming. Isiah was always the best player on the Bay Boys. Who won FMVP is irrelevant. That's like saying Parker was better than Duncan in 2007. Everyone knew Thomas was the best. That's why everyone thinks he should have been on the Dream Team.

Paul was injured and played terribly in the 2nd round of the 2012 playoffs and got swept by the Spurs. 2015 against the Spurs is the best he ever played. Didn't his team lose a 3-1 lead in the next round though and actually got that lead with Paul sitting games or playing very little?

The 2018 Rockets don't matter because Paul was a clear #2 on that team. And besides those Rockets were a 65-win +8.21 SRS juggernaut. They were as good as the Bay Boy Pistons and they probably didn't win a title because CP3 got hurt. Paul's entire playoff career consists of chokes, disappointments and injuries.

but, there is use for them because of era & pace. you keep harping on "key moments" but i just pointed out one from paul and you ignored it. you're not acknowledging his better playoff numbers which quite frankly are ALL key moments. what's more, isiah not winning 2 fmvps actually makes my point. you said teammates were irrelevant but given the results, this is untrue. the bad boys were absolutely loaded whether you agree or not.

on one hand you want to focus on injuries. but when i tell you paul played all his playoff games in 2012, you deviate from your "injured for half his prime" claim & switch to bad play. no consistency. in 2015, paul missed the first 2 road games & the clippers split them. he wasn't "hurt" the rest of the series. la just threw those games away in large part because of blake griffin.

also, the bad boys faced mediocre competition en-route to their rings. peak paul, who was NOT injured "half the time" like you claim, wins both those titles in place of isiah. and would grab both fmvps.

[bizil]

Isiah Thomas is not a better scorer than Chris Paul on literally any level.


He’s categorically and obviously worse. You’d only sound stupid to try and avoid that.

CP3 can be a great scoring PG. And he's a more SKILLED scorer than Zeke. And is more efficient. BUT Zeke FLAT OUT was more dangerous a scorer. He was QUICKER to flip the switch to dominate scoring than CP3. And will FLAT OUT adopt a SG mentality. And play OFF THE BALL while Joe D or Vinnie ran the PG. CP3 is capable of the same things. But Zeke was BETTER at it! The more EFFICIENT scorer isn't ALWAYS the better scorer!! The more SKILLED score ISN'T ALWAYS the better scorer!! I take Zeke over CP3 peak-prime wise (not a huge gap to me) is because he's the BETTER offensive player. ALL AROUND game wise, I would take CP3 over Zeke. SKILL FOR SKILL on both sides of the court, I already mentioned CP3 is the best PG of all time! So I gave him his flowers!!

[BigShotBob]

Zeke is the better player. BUT skill for skill on both sides of the court (scoring skillset, handles, defense, passing), CP3 has the edge on Zeke. The scoring skillset (Zeke is the better scorer though) and defense gives him the edge. BUT I agree Zeke was the better player. He could be the ultimate floor general like Stockton. BUT could dominate games scoring like Iverson when he DAMN WELL FELT LIKE IT! When he moved off the rock while Joe D or Vinnie ran the PG, he changed his thought process EFFORTLESSLY!

Best exemplified that he has the highest assist and ppg ratio season than any other player in NBA history (probably not named BIG O).


Isiah Thomas is not a better scorer than Chris Paul on literally any level.


He’s categorically and obviously worse. You’d only sound stupid to try and avoid that.

No other player in NBA history has averaged over 20 points and 13 assists for a season. The season that Zeke did he put up more assists in a season than CP3 ever did while almost eclipsing his highest regular season ppg average.

There, you just learned something new.

[mehyaM24]

Zeke did he put up more assists in a season than CP3 ever did while almost eclipsing his highest regular season ppg average.

averaging 21 is "almost eclipsing" 23? interesting.

[Psileas]

He can catch Jason Kidd if reasonably healthy, but to get to Stockton, he needs almost twice as many assists as LeBron needs points to catch Kareem - a reminder of how insane Stockton's total assist record is. You get to an impressive 10,000 and you've still not even covered 2/3 of the road. Not to mention Stockton was more of a role player when younger. If he had been trusted and played more since Season 1, he'd have been at 17,000+ assists now.

[tpols]

Isiah Thomas is not a better scorer than Chris Paul on literally any level.


He’s categorically and obviously worse. You’d only sound stupid to try and avoid that.

Yea CP3 is a marksman. Thomas didn't have his shooting ability.

[Xiao Yao You]

He can catch Jason Kidd if reasonably healthy, but to get to Stockton, he needs almost twice as many assists as LeBron needs points to catch Kareem - a reminder of how insane Stockton's total assist record is. You get to an impressive 10,000 and you've still not even covered 2/3 of the road. Not to mention Stockton was more of a role player when younger. If he had been trusted and played more since Season 1, he'd have been at 17,000+ assists now.

He was only a role player because their coach was an idiot. He should have started from day 1

[iamgine]

Stockton was special in his longevity. From age 37-40 he still played all 82 games.

[Xiao Yao You]

Stockton was special in his longevity. From age 37-40 he still played all 82 games.

Only missing 30 games after micro fracture surgery and basically being the same player was really something.

[iamgine]

If CP maintain his assist rate without missing any game, he'd end the season with around 10,280 assists. This is still 5,526 shy of Stockton's regular season record.

Lets assume CP average an optimistic 8.5 assist per game for the rest of his career and always play all 82 games. This is equal to 697 assists/season.

5,526/697 = 8 seasons. So being very optimistic he'd need at least 8 more regular seasons at least to catch Stockton.

[nayte]

Not saying Stockton was a better defender but he still has a handfull of all defence teams it wasn't like he was a scrub on that end of the court.

[Xiao Yao You]

If CP maintain his assist rate without missing any game, he'd end the season with around 10,280 assists. This is still 5,526 shy of Stockton's regular season record.

Lets assume CP average an optimistic 8.5 assist per game for the rest of his career and always play all 82 games. This is equal to 697 assists/season.

5,526/697 = 8 seasons. So being very optimistic he'd need at least 8 more regular seasons at least to catch Stockton.

He won't get close. Let's be real. No one probably ever will

[nayte]

Yeah that will be one of the hardest records to break

[Gimmedarock]

For me :

1 Chris Paul
2 Steph Curry
3 Magic Johnson
4 Damian Lillard
5 Jason Kidd

[HoopsNY]

Curry is a 2x MVP and 3x champion who is about twice the basketball player.



Oscar and Thomas are clearly better than Paul. The only way to have Paul over Thomas is to give CP3 credit for something he never did. You'd have to look past the numerous playoff series Isiah dominated, the 25 points he scored in the fourth quarter of a Finals game while hobbling, averaging 27/6/7 for another Finals etc. It's not about better teammates. It's that Chris Paul never played as well as Isiah in key moments. You can do mental gymnastics and say that if he had better teammates he could have but then you're giving him implied credit for something he never did. There are serious question marks about CP3's durability and reliability in the playoffs. He's shrunk in several playoff moments.

Nash and Paul are on the same tier but I'd give the edge to Nash who led a top 2 offense for 9 straight seasons in Dallas and Phoenix. He also didn't have underperformances or injuries in the playoffs. I don't have a problem with CP3 over him but I disagree. Stockton I also have over Paul as of now because his longevity is just too much. Stockton almost never got hurt. Paul can pass him though because I don't see Stockton as a great player at his peak. Kidd is in the same tier but I'm not high on defense for PG's and Kidd could never pressure defenses with his scoring. A great floor general but Paul to me is better. There's a few other guys you didn't mention like Payton, Cousy, and Archibald.

My PG list: (spaces designate tiers; players within the same tier are arguable)

1. Magic

2. Oscar
3. Curry

4. Thomas

5. Nash
6. Stockton
7. Paul
8. Payton
9. Cousy
10. Kidd




Paul was the 2nd best player on that team. It's also worth noting that it was CP3's injury that probably cost the Rockets a title.

Did Paul even have a series as good as Zeke's 1985 playoff series against Boston? Zeke went 26/6/11/2 on 48% up against Dennis Johnson (All-Defensive 2nd team that year).

In the elimination game, Zeke went 37/12/9, leading all scorers. Detroit lost, but that was one hell of a performance against one of the great all-time teams.

I agree with you assessment on Paul. He has nothing to show for where his career playoffs are concerned. Add that to the fact that Zeke has a number of incredible playoff series and finals performances, and it's clear who you'd rather have.

That 1990 finals was insane. Zeke put up 28/5/7/2 and even shot 69% (11-16) from deep. I'm wondering if that is an NBA record for 3 point % in a finals series.

[999Guy]

Did Paul even have a series as good as Zeke's 1985 playoff series against Boston? Zeke went 26/6/11/2 on 48% up against Dennis Johnson (All-Defensive 2nd team that year).

In the elimination game, Zeke went 37/12/9, leading all scorers. Detroit lost, but that was one hell of a performance against one of the great all-time teams.

I agree with you assessment on Paul. He has nothing to show for where his career playoffs are concerned. Add that to the fact that Zeke has a number of incredible playoff series and finals performances, and it's clear who you'd rather have.

That 1990 finals was insane. Zeke put up 28/5/7/2 and even shot 69% (11-16) from deep. I'm wondering if that is an NBA record for 3 point % in a finals series.

Literally without even researching the series you can say, yes, Chris Paul did have plenty of better series than Isiah’s 85 one against Boston. Because literally, he is better at almost everything at the game. It would be extremely strange for Isiah to outperform for a serious amount of time.
Seriously asking.

How could Isiah Thomas possibly outperform Chris Paul at NBA basketball for a significant amount of time while being worse at everything essentially?

In the 1990 series, he had to possibly break the volume 3P make record to even play at prime Paul level. But isiah mostly sucked that entire season. He shot like ass and created offense like duck in the RS. He shot like ass against Chicago and New York. But the team carried him and won on defense. Chris Paul right now was better.


Isiah faced Boston in a classic high paced 80’s shoot out.

102.1 pace. Played 41.0 MPG.

Chris Paul spent his entire prime in the late 80’s to early 90’s on pace. And in a West loaded with great defenses.

I also have to push back very very hard on the idea that Boston was an all-time great team that year or even close. The league had 23 teams, and had an entire bad conference. So an NBA over 20% smaller than Chris Paul’s and half of it was trash. That is a weak NBA.

They also didn’t shoot 3’s, and again, the West was literally trash and played no defense. The Pistons only got notoriety because they introduced defense-mentality to the playoffs.

All this is to say, Chris Paul in his athletic prime, did much better.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2008-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-hornets.html

Tougher league, conference, defense, “all-time great team” if 85 Boston was one.

Similar stats, CP3 achieved them at an insanely slower pace.

If Chris Paul saw Boston’s slow-ass bigs but while playing at a fast-ass pace? He would’ve done 28/12 or something stupid.


Lol, hell if he saw San Antonio’s slow-ass bigs(but obviously far better defensively than Boston) at a faster pace he’s doing crazier numbers. Common sense. CP3 played at a 21% slower pace against a defense 72% better. Boston’s defense was -1.6 points better than league average, San Antonio’s defense was -5.7 points better than league average.

Now go on and tell me how a man who had the skill set of John Wall but without the level of athleticism was better at basketball because Rodman, Dumars, Lambeer and like 4 starters off the bench carried him through the playoffs.

[bizil]

Here's the thing about CP3 vs. Isiah... They are similar in some ways for sure. BUT history will show CP3 HANDS DOWN had the superior all around game when u factor scoring, defense, and dimes. BUT history will ALSO SHOW Isiah HANDS DOWN was the more explosive offensive player. CP3 was MORE SKILLED AND EFFICIENT scoring the rock.

BUT in terms of results and dominance, Isiah was superior offensively. Isiah was quicker to take over games scoring when it counted. BUT CP3 could will a team back BETTER through his floor game. Among pass first PG's, the only guys you would fear just as much OR MORE than Zeke scoring the rock are Oscar and Magic. CP3 is high up on that list as well of course though. If u consider Luka a pass first PG, then he's steadily headed up the charts of course!

[dankok8]

Another factor to consider...

Isiah faced the Bulls every year from 1988 to 1991 where he usually put up bad shooting numbers because he was often matched up with MJ who had 5 inches on him and had the quickness to stay with him. Isiah also faced the Celtics in 1985, 1987 and 1988 where Dennis Johnson, also one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever, was put on him. In the Finals against the Lakers in 1988 and 1989 he was matched up with Michael Cooper, again one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever. Against the Blazers in 1990, Terry Porter, another good defender. Folks have to understand Isiah didn't have many easy matchups in those years and as the #1 offensive option he always got a lot of attention from defenses.

[HoopsNY]

How could Isiah Thomas possibly outperform Chris Paul at NBA basketball for a significant amount of time while being worse at everything essentially?

I'm not sure. I mean, if we're gonna automatically grant preference just based on being all-around, then KG should get a nod over Shaq, or how about Paul George over Giannis? Or better yet, how about Paul over D. Wade?


In the 1990 series, he had to possibly break the volume 3P make record to even play at prime Paul level. But isiah mostly sucked that entire season. He shot like ass and created offense like duck in the RS. He shot like ass against Chicago and New York. But the team carried him and won on defense. Chris Paul right now was better.


The point wasn't about the season, though. The point was to show how Isiah came up big in the NBA finals, winning finals MVP. He put up 28/5/7 on 54%, including 69% from deep on the biggest stage. Can Paul say the same even using the WCF as an example? Oh wait. Never mind.


Isiah faced Boston in a classic high paced 80’s shoot out.

102.1 pace. Played 41.0 MPG.

Chris Paul spent his entire prime in the late 80’s to early 90’s on pace. And in a West loaded with great defenses.

That's a fair point, but you're acting like Paul didn't play basketball between 2014-20 when pace and PPG both increased significantly. If the excuse is that he wasn't in his prime, then Paul was 29 in the 2014-15 season. So what happened between the ages of say, 29-32?

Paul Playoffs 2008-14: 21/5/10/2 on 48%
Paul Playoffs 2015-20: 21/6/7/2 on 48%



I also have to push back very very hard on the idea that Boston was an all-time great team that year or even close. The league had 23 teams, and had an entire bad conference. So an NBA over 20% smaller than Chris Paul’s and half of it was trash. That is a weak NBA.


Agreed, not an all time great team. I confused them with the '86 Celtics. But that team was still stacked and he still was defended by one of the all-time great defensive PGs.

I'm not sure why you even bother arguing at all if you're gonna come with the 'ole, "the 80s was weak", garbage that these kids spew nowadays. Go on any reputable basketball media site, or listen to any basketball guru, and they'll tell you that the 80s was the golden era of basketball. Heck, it's even acknowledged right on this forum.

And if you really do feel that way, then I dare you to show me your top 10 players of all-time. :lol


Similar stats, CP3 achieved them at an insanely slower pace.


And basically did the same when pace increased. You're acting like if pace had increased like it did in recent years, back from 2007-14, that Paul would drop 30/7/12 on 50% regularly.


If Chris Paul saw Boston’s slow-ass bigs but while playing at a fast-ass pace? He would’ve done 28/12 or something stupid.


Oh there you go, lol. Which explains the increased pace/PPG in the NBA but Paul's stagnated numbers? Care to rationalize that one?


Now go on and tell me how a man who had the skill set of John Wall but without the level of athleticism was better at basketball because Rodman, Dumars, Lambeer and like 4 starters off the bench carried him through the playoffs.

You're acting like Zeke didn't get defended by the likes of DJ, MJ, Porter, Cooper, and Richardson. Who were the great defenders guarding Paul? Parker? Conley? Steph? I'll give you Allen as I remember some switches here and there but for the life of me, I don't remember its outcome.