Ronaldo or Messi??

[AlternativeAcc.]

ArbitraryWater and Dankok get in here...

[Wally450]

Ronaldo imo.

[Axe]

Who's the fraud between the two of them?

[highwhey]

LeBron James

[HylianNightmare]

Messi

[dankok8]

Both guys are amazing GOAT-level goalscorers. I'll take the guy who's also a GOAT-level playmaker and dribbler.

Easy choice... Messi.

[vetlantram]

Messi

[PistonsFan#21]

How have they both performed for their country during World cups?

[FKAri]

Messi but Ronaldo might surpass him through some kinda longevity shit like Lebron(though Lebron's further from MJ than Ronaldo is from Messi).

[ArbitraryWater]

It's an interesting discussion.

But the level of critical thinking is exposed here.


To some, seing that both are GOAT-level scorers, but Messi being a GOAT-level playmaker (almost anyway) as well, and better dribbler, might be enough to "settle" it, looking at it symplistically...

But the devil is in the details.

There's a reason, afterall, that in the end Ronaldo is crushing Messi's goal tally wherever it matters, and why he has achieved more, with less.

Messi clearly impacts the game more frequently on a minute to minute basis, but Ronaldo with his decisive and superior one touch / edge of box shooting finishing + heading and general big-match appearance, has proven to be the most valuable and best player there is.

So, as long as Ronaldo scores more frequently in the big matches with goals of more considerable quality/worth, it simply has more value to the football game and will trump Messi's ~20 more passes, ~25 more touches, 2-3 more take-ons.

One clinical and good finish, could end up with higher worth than:
10+ km ran (Messi does not do this by the way, he runs by far the least of any player on the pitch, merely making an example), 90+% passing ratio (of forward passes), 5+ take-ons, etc.

Toni Kroos put it nicely after the 2017 CL semifinal first leg against Atletico Madrid:
"you can play good in defense, you can control the midfield, but at the end of the day you need a guy who can score/to score"

In a CL, Messi can't score "simple tap ins" due to a nature of Barcelona's style and his style.

For him to score, he needs to pull a magic and dribble past 3-4 defenders and then execute a perfect shot and through the legs of 2-3 defenders and to finally beat a goalkeeper.

On the other hand, CR7 is scoring for fun in a CL due to his physique, positioning, off the ball movement, nature of his game and passing patterns of his teams.

Effectively, on the highest level, it is WAY EASIER to mark and neutralize Messi than CR7.

This is where Ronaldo's aerial advantage counts for more than Messi's low-centre of gravity.

So anybody who picks Messi over Ronaldo is disingenous, and completely ignores performance in the big matches, annual CL performances...

He doesn’t have that something-out-of-nothing knockout power Ronaldo has, in the form of a longshot or a set-piece or something aerial where you can get your head in there and make a difference with the snap of a finger.

Ronaldo has that and does it cause he has the mentality to boot, to turn ties by himself.

Messi needs more of an entire meshing of an ATG offense and every pass and motion and play to work in sync for his brilliance to come to fruition.

The only times he individually broke the deadlock were: Arsenal 2010, AC Milan 2013, Bayern 2015

But the things Messi did those legs, Ronaldo does anually.

It boils down to Ronaldo's attributes and abilities being more applicable, and basically applicable whenever... Just put him upfront and he will pounce on whatever simpleness is given him.

Ronaldo ergo is the more reliable goalscorer.

Ultimately, Ronaldo is Mister Champions League. He owns the most frequent and biggest international football competition there is.

Individual statistical GOATness:

Highest ever goalscorer, most semifinal goals, quarterfinal goals, group stage goals. He even has the most CL assists ever, a category which the Messi camp prides itself in.

Statistical comparison:

CL QF-F scoring:
Messi: 22 goals, 7 assists - 43 games
Ronaldo: 42 goals, 6 assists – 49 games (note: played more games because he extended more runs)

Nearly twice (!) as many goals in just 6 more games.

Braces or Hattricks in CL QF/SF/F:

Ronaldo: 10
Messi: 5

He's never put up as much resistance and fight as Ronaldo did, and there's a reason why he won less than Ronaldo.

Messi's CL exits:

2008 SF: no goals/assists
2010 SF: no goals/assists
2012 SF: no goals/assists
2013 SF: no goals/assists
2014 QF: no goals/assists
2016 QF: no goals/assists
2017 QF: no goals/assists
2018 QF: no goals/assists
2019 SF: 2 goals/no assists (no goals/no assists in 2nd leg)
2020 QF: no goals/no assists
2021 R16: 2 goals/no assists (1 penalty)

All the extra touches and passes in the world couldn't save him or his team there.

All they needed was one stab.

Ronaldo‘s variety and completeness as offensive option is simply more worth to a football game than Messi‘s. And it was proven year after year.

He scored 10 goals from QF/F against the top 3 defenses in the world in 2017.

In doing so, Ronaldo has CRUSHED the most consecutive CL SF appearances record: EIGHT (2011-2018).

Messi's career has meanwhile trended to one theme: losing big in the Champions League. Year-for-year since 2017, 5 years straight, he's now lost legs by 3 goals or more. This isn't happenstance.

Messi has made a career of the opposite: being on the wrong end of beatdowns and BLOWING big leads.

Blowing 4-1 vs AS Roma, blowing 3-0 vs Liverpool.

2013: 0-4 vs Bayern
2017: 0-3 vs Juventus
2018: 0-3 vs Roma
2019: 0-4 vs Liverpool
2020: 2-8 vs Bayern
2021: 1-4 vs PSG

These aren't a coincedence.

This is the result of quiet, meek leadership. Lazy effort. Walking, strolling the pitch, head down. Zero tracking back. Zero urging others on. Zero tackles.

Aimlessly jogging around out of position, during all of these beatdowns.

And remember, you cannot teach how Ronaldo behaves and motivates in crucial tournament-changing situations. I will refer to him motivating Moutinho to take the penalty against Poland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGshFwJKb7g
He pushes Moutinho to take it, backs him, but also lifts the burden off him in case it goes awry, and puts it in the hands of destiny/God.

[tpols]

In a CL, Messi can't score "simple tap ins" due to a nature of our style and his style.

For him to score, he needs to pull a magic and dribble past 3-4 defenders and then execute a perfect shot and through the legs of 2-3 defenders and to finally beat a goalkeeper.

On the other hand, CR7 is scoring for fun in a CL due to his physique, positioning, off the ball movement, nature of his game and passing patterns of his teams.

Effectively, on the highest level, it is WAY EASIER to mark and neutralize Messi than CR7.


I'm no soccer guy, but it sounds like you're saying Messi can't play off ball and needs to "dribble" a lot to score. And this is a primary reason Ronaldo is better when it counts... he can take a one hitter to the house. It's surprising you're a LeBron fan given this analysis.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm no soccer guy, but it sounds like you're saying Messi can't play off ball and needs to "dribble" a lot to score. And this is a primary reason Ronaldo is better when it counts... he can take a one hitter to the house. It's surprising you're a LeBron fan given this analysis.

It's not like he can't play off ball, he scores a lot in the league because he has a great shot and a lot of it is 1-shot finishing, however, in the CL against game planning defenses, it gets a bit too physical for him in crowded penalty boxes, never the less he can not put himself in easier scoring situations by scoring aerially.

He is very tactically limited.

The right wing is vacated. They play short passes through the middle with Messi starting at some 45 yards away from the goal, moving diagonally from the right halfspace to the middle, looking either for a shot opportunity or a pass to Alba on the left wing. That was 90% of Barcelona's offense for the last 3-4 years.

Xavi said 4 years back that when they played their tiki-taka, the ball at some point had to go through Messi or it would be an issue.

And he indeed has trouble properly positoning himself in the CL.

We need to ask ourselves why Messi never ever finds himself in the positions that normal attackers score from.
Why is he constantly drifting towards the left side of the box when he is more dangerous from the right?
Why is he refusing to search for spaces before the opponent has settled into a comfortable position?

He lacks the physique. There might also be anxiety-related issues going on.

Because he has developed a habit of dropping back, partly it is because (when he plays) Barcelona's midfield doesn't do much to create chances and partly it is because he is not Ronaldo type of player who can wait inside the box for service, he is part of the culmination and creation of the attacking game. Also because he can't run or doesn't want to run these days, he'd rather try to dribble or play quick 1-2's to beat defenders than search for spaces to receive a pass.

[tpols]

It's not like he can't play off ball, he scores a lot in the league because he has a great shot and a lot of it is 1-shot finishing, however, in the CL against game planning defenses, it gets a bit too physical for him in crowded penalty boxes, never the less he can not put himself in easier scoring situations by scoring aerially.

He is very tactically limited.

The right wing is vacated. They play short passes through the middle with Messi starting at some 45 yards away from the goal, moving diagonally from the right halfspace to the middle, looking either for a shot opportunity or a pass to Alba on the left wing. That was 90% of Barcelona's offense for the last 3-4 years.

Xavi said 4 years back that when they played their tiki-taka, the ball at some point had to go through Messi or it would be an issue.

And he indeed has trouble properly positoning himself in the CL.

We need to ask ourselves why Messi never ever finds himself in the positions that normal attackers score from.
Why is he constantly drifting towards the left side of the box when he is more dangerous from the right?
Why is he refusing to search for spaces before the opponent has settled into a comfortable position?

He lacks the physique. There might also be anxiety-related issues going on.

Because he has developed a habit of dropping back, partly it is because (when he plays) our midfield doesn't do much to create chances and partly it is because he is not Ronaldo type of player who can wait inside the box for service, he is part of the culmination and creation of the attacking game. Also because he can't run or doesn't want to run these days, he'd rather try to dribble or play quick 1-2's to beat defenders than search for spaces to receive a pass.


If that's the case, that's a problem. Messi can only "Iverson" his way to goals. While Ronaldo can kill you in the post or wherever... sniper. Messi is a sloppy machine gun. With your break down, it is clear to me Ronaldo is the better player.

[ArbitraryWater]

If that's the case, that's a problem. Messi can only "Iverson" his way to goals. While Ronaldo can kill you in the post or wherever... sniper. Messi is a sloppy machine gun. With your break down, it is clear to me Ronaldo is the better player.


Haha, I love how quickly you come to these conclusions.

I mean I agree. But I wouldnt be that extreme, "Iverson" his way to goals.

Just, his walking the pitch, deep positioning, lack of height and entry option availability can definitely become a bit of a problem in the CL.

The Xavi quote actually surprised me. Messi didnt exactly struck me as the kind of guy that would make a fuss out of that.

But yes, Ronaldo is the far more applicable and reliable goalscoring option with the chips down.

Any league, any system..
https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/1226808274365841408

Even though there is no "last shot" type of equivalent situation as in basketball, you'd want Ronaldo to be your option in the season deciding game.

Because you can actually go to him. Where as Messi can be walled out the box.

Ancelotti had a funny quote about Ronaldo in 2014.

"When Ronaldo is on the pitch, game starts at 1-0"

And that continued to held true to the deepest levels of competition in the CL.

Something you can't say for anyone else.

[dankok8]

This notion that a poacher in the box is more valuable than an all-around talent in football has no historical precedent whatsoever. If what ArbitraryWater was saying is remotely true there would be at least someone saying Van Basten was better than Maradona or Gerd Muller was better than Cruyff.

There's probably a reason why 80% of all current and former players and managers say Messi is the better player. Including Ronaldo's Man U teammates like Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Berbatov. You can google it or find on YT easily.

Messi scores a bigger % of his scoring attempts. We have data from league games and CL since 2009-10:

Messi: 516 goals on 2602 shots (19.8 %)
Ronaldo: 505 goals on 3249 shots (15.5 %)

And mind you this edge in converting shots to goals is despite Messi attempting and scoring more goals outside of the box. Obviously the further you shoot from the harder it is to score so Messi's conversion rate looks even more impressive.

Therefore this notion that Ronaldo is more efficient is baloney...

But can Ronaldo get more opportunities to score because of his skill set? Hmm Ronaldo playing as a poacher in the box will surely get fed more chances than Messi playing 30 yards from the goal. But what happened when Messi didn't have to build up play all the time and didn't initiate play 30 yards from the goal...?

Did you forget what Messi did when he had a masterful midfield of Xavi/Iniesta behind him and actually played in the box "waiting for passes"... He scored 91 goals in a calendar year which is the highest total ever and a Guinness World Record. He scored 50 goals in a La Liga season once, 46 goals in 32 matches another season, once scored in 21 straight matches... setting records so obscene they will probably never be broken. For those who only know basketball 91 goals in a calendar year is like Wilt's 50 ppg season. It's unfathomable. It's a record so out there that people don't even wanna bring it up because no one else in the last 40 years scored even 70 in a calendar year... Except unlike Wilt, Messi did this on a great team that was hauling trophies like nobody's business.

You keep cherrypicking stats. Post the total complete stats for any competition and let's analyze.

The whole BS narrative that Ronaldo can score with any kind of service has been debunked in Juventus already. He scored 14 goals in 23 CL games with Juve. If you exclude penalties he scored 10 goals in 23 CL games. That's atrocious. Messi scored 15 non-penalty goals in 24 CL games in the same span. And outassisted Ronaldo 8 to 3. Ronaldo "led" his team to back to back to back losses against Ajax, Lyon and Porto. Juventus was heavily favored over all three of those teams.

And just to give the good folks here an idea of exactly how much better Messi is outside of scoring goals... In the aforementioned CL in the last 3 seasons:

Key Passes: (a pass leading to a shot on goal)

Messi: 67
Ronaldo: 31

Big Chances Created: (set a teammate up at point blank range to score)

Messi: 20
Ronaldo: 6

Dribbles: (every dribble is successfully getting past a defender)

Messi: 121
Ronaldo: 42

Not valuing anything except end product (goals) shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of the game. Creating scoring chances and beating defenders by dribbling past them opens up space for others on the team to exploit which makes scoring goals far easier. There's a reason why teams make walls to stop Messi from getting inside. Those were your very words. PSG gave Messi a few yards of space 30 meters from the goal and yea...

https://i.postimg.cc/CKLQstJt/Messi-PSG.gif

Messi of course is a triple threat. He can score, he can make a ridiculous pass or he can just keep going and dribble a few more guys.

To summarize their CL records since Ronaldo went to Juventus:

Messi: 15 non-penalty goals, 5 penalty goals, 8 assists, 67 key passes, 20 big chances created, 121 dribbles in 24 matches
Ronaldo: 10 non-penalty goals, 4 penalty goals, 3 assists, 31 key passes, 6 big chances created, 42 dribbles in 23 matches

But carry on with the "Messi chokes" narrative...

[ArbitraryWater]

This notion that a poacher in the box is more valuable than an all-around talent in football has no historical precedent whatsoever. If what ArbitraryWater was saying is remotely true there would be at least someone saying Van Basten was better than Maradona or Gerd Muller was better than Cruyff.

Why?

Most of the lauded GOAT contenders, most of the BDOR winners, including last years one, are dominantly scorers...

Last year's award was the perfect example. Lewa, Bayern's clean-up man, who does nothing to build up play, won it over Müller, their main passer and assister.


There's probably a reason why 80% of all current and former players and managers say Messi is the better player. Including Ronaldo's Man U teammates like Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Berbatov. You can google it or find on YT easily.


It's probably like 75%, but I don't really care. That 25% is reasonable doubt.

Most of the other players dont care or value big game performance enough.

These same analysts on TV make excuses for Messi when he has another head down strolling and pouting performance while he gets trashed 2-8 by Bayern.


Messi scores a bigger % of his scoring attempts. We have data from league games and CL since 2009-10:

Messi: 516 goals on 2602 shots (19.8 %)
Ronaldo: 505 goals on 3249 shots (15.5 %)

And mind you this edge in converting shots to goals is despite Messi attempting and scoring more goals outside of the box. Obviously the further you shoot from the harder it is to score so Messi's conversion rate looks even more impressive.

Therefore this notion that Ronaldo is more efficient is baloney...

You're confusing football with basketball again. Nobody measures efficiency with shot attempts. Football averages 2.5 goals a game, a shot attempt is typically a sign of pressure and very much welcomed.


You keep cherrypicking stats. Post the total complete stats for any competition and let's analyze.

I'm not cherrypicking anything.

I post QF-F goals and you've repeteadedly said you don't like that and tried to include R16 goals, at a far lesser stage, against worse opponents, during a time in which Real Madrid and Barcelona were never threatened at this stage and never lost at it,

Why?

Because Messi is the R16 scoring king.

Oh can he rack up those goals against Leverkusen...

but what happens when the defenses tighten up, the pressure increases?

Yeah, thats not cherrypicking.


The whole BS narrative that Ronaldo can score with any kind of service has been debunked in Juventus already. He scored 14 goals in 23 CL games with Juve. If you exclude penalties he scored 10 goals in 23 CL games. That's atrocious. Messi scored 15 non-penalty goals in 24 CL games in the same span. And outassisted Ronaldo 8 to 3. Ronaldo "led" his team to back to back to back losses against Ajax, Lyon and Porto. Juventus was heavily favored over all three of those teams.

Ronaldo is not just older than Messi, he also has no service at Juve, and his best teammate was injured in all 3 CL KO campaigns.

Nice try.


And just to give the good folks here an idea of exactly how much better Messi is outside of scoring goals... In the aforementioned CL in the last 3 seasons:

Key Passes: (a pass leading to a shot on goal)

Messi: 67
Ronaldo: 31

Big Chances Created: (set a teammate up at point blank range to score)

Messi: 20
Ronaldo: 6

Dribbles: (every dribble is successfully getting past a defender)

Messi: 121
Ronaldo: 42

Not valuing anything except end product (goals) shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of the game. Creating scoring chances and beating defenders by dribbling past them opens up space for others on the team to exploit which makes scoring goals far easier. There's a reason why teams make walls to stop Messi from getting inside. Those were your very words.

PSG gave Messi a few yards of space 30 meters from the goal and yea...

https://i.postimg.cc/CKLQstJt/Messi-PSG.gif

Haha, nice attempt and making this seem like a regular day in the office for Messi.

This was Messi's last great KO goal since the 2019 free kick, and before that? 2015.

And when did he do it? Down 4-1, with PSG not even giving a fck..

what happened when he had a penalty 15 minutes later that could have actually made it a ball game?

Ah, he missed it.

So once the pressure was there and it actually came to a meaningful situation, he missed a penalty.


Messi of course is a triple threat. He can score, he can make a ridiculous pass or he can just keep going and dribble a few more guys.

To summarize their CL records since Ronaldo went to Juventus:

Messi: 15 non-penalty goals, 5 penalty goals, 8 assists, 67 key passes, 20 big chances created, 121 dribbles in 24 matches
Ronaldo: 10 non-penalty goals, 4 penalty goals, 3 assists, 31 key passes, 6 big chances created, 42 dribbles in 23 matches

?

And why would we do that? :oldlol:

But carry on with the "Messi chokes" narrative...[/QUOTE]

[ArbitraryWater]

What you just saw linked was Messi's best long range effort in the CL...

He did this while down and out, 1-4 down...

Here is Ronaldo, scoring a screamer from 40 yards out, with his team live exiting the competition at the moment and in need of a goal:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NpR6jO2pi0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GGliWSKumg

Messi will never replicate a strike like that, never the less in such a dire moment, season on the line.

[Objectivity]

CR is the lebron equivalent of football, he does nothing better than messi and yet plebs consider them on the same lvl

[dankok8]

Lewa won BDO because he had a historic campaign. His 48 non-penalty goals in 19-20 ties the most Ronaldo ever scored in a club campaign and trails only Messi's top 3 seasons (59 in 2012, 55 in 2013, 52 in 2015). Lewa was scoring goals on a historic level last year and so far in the 20-21 season he's continued the pace. And of course Lewa won the treble with Bayern in 2020 as well. You hate to give Lewa credit because he makes poacher Ronaldo in Madrid look worse. A less physically talented and less skilled striker than Ronaldo with premier service can put up insane stats and win a treble at the same time!

That 20% that according to you creates reasonable doubt (legal term LOL) is a clear minority. As years go by and Ronaldo isn't winning trophies people will increasingly side with the guy who looks like the better player. Outside of Portuguese and die-hard Madridistas this debate is hardly a debate.

Why would you remove the CL R16? Ronaldo scored in the QF against the likes of Wolfsburg, Galatasaray, APOEL. Roma, Porto, Tottenham. None of these teams were CL contenders in those years. Even the group stage shouldn't be removed. But but "Barca always make it out of the group stage." Yea but if Messi didn't score goals, make assists and do other things maybe they wouldn't have. No cherrypicking. Post complete stats.

I'll help you out...

Messi has a higher frequency of end product (goals + assists) in every single notable competition: domestic league, domestic cup, CL, World Cup, Copa/Euro. And then he does a lot more outside of the end product. He totally dwarfs Ronaldo in playmaking whether you measure by key passes or big chances created or throughballs. His dribbling puts enormous pressure on defenses. It's not even close outside of scoring goals. Even in the years Messi played as a forward in the box his passing and dribbling numbers were gargantuan. But it shows the mastery of his game in the last few years that he can start plays 30 yards from goal and still score a comparable number of goals as the premier in-the-box finishers while doing all the other things.

[tpols]

CR is the lebron equivalent of football, he does nothing better than messi and yet plebs consider them on the same lvl

From the analysis given here it seems to be the opposite. Messi is the ball dominant, stat stuffing, not doing things when they matter most guy. Where as Ronaldo is the quick strike clutch superstar. Across basketball or soccer, the latter is much more conducive to winning.

[dankok8]

From the analysis given here it seems to be the opposite. Messi is the ball dominant, stat stuffing, not doing things when they matter most guy. Where as Ronaldo is the quick strike clutch superstar. Across basketball or soccer, the latter is much more conducive to winning.

Whose analysis?

And there is no such thing as ball dominant in soccer... :oldlol:

[Vorot]

Definitely Messi. He's more difficult than Ronaldo, and he's just as successful. I also think he is a nicer person. :pimp:

[Manny98]

Messi disappears too much in the biggest games so Ronaldo

[ArbitraryWater]

The fact that dankok so clearly vehemently rejects the notion of preferencing QF-F stats where they face real competition over group stage stats against 2nd rate country teams and R16‘s playing 2nd seeds as heavy favorite is hilarious and tells you everything you need to know about his bias and Messi‘s mental midgetry.


Yes, lets not count the biggest matches more!

Its the February regular season games that should be equally looked at ;-)

[dankok8]

The fact that dankok so clearly vehemently rejects the notion of preferencing QF-F stats where they face real competition over group stage stats against 2nd rate country teams and R16‘s playing 2nd seeds as heavy favorite is hilarious and tells you everything you need to know about his bias and Messi‘s mental midgetry.


Yes, lets not count the biggest matches more!

Its the February regular season games that should be equally looked at ;-)

Ignoring the group stage and Round of 16 is like ignoring the early rounds of the NBA playoffs. Who posts playoff numbers without the 1st and 2nd rounds? A later round doesn't always mean tougher competition. Look at Ronaldo's goals against Roma, APOEL, Galatasaray and Tottenham in the QF of the CL... In 2018 when Real ended up winning the CL they finished second in their group. If Ronaldo decided to take the group stage off and not score against Dortmund, Real would be out in the group stage. To call those games meaningless is quite wrong. Atleti that same year didn't even make the knockout rounds.

Maybe a reason Messi's Barca made the QF in 13 consecutive years from 2008-2020 has something to do with Messi's dominance in the Round of 16? Messi has scored or assisted in the last 14 seasons (and scored in 13 out of 14 BTW) in the Round of 16. Maybe that's why you're avoiding to post those stats...

You can post complete stats and then decide to highlight certain aspects but if you cherrypick you're excluding pieces of information. Let everyone see all the stats and make their own conclusions. Here is a link with very complete Messi vs. Ronaldo numbers for everyone to see:

https://www.messivsronaldo.app/

And there is no such thing as a regular season game in football. League games still have a trophy at the end of it. In fact in big leagues like EPL and La Liga, the domestic league title is arguably as valuable as the CL. The likes of Jurgen Klopp and Zidane have said it's harder to win the league. Saying "February games" would be fair if I was bringing up Supercups and little titles like that but I didn't and wouldn't because those really don't matter. But domestic league titles matter a lot and domestic cups matter a little bit too.

Besides this myth of Messi choking in the CL has to die. There is lots of clueless people repeating this as fact when it's debunked very easily.

Since 2008-2009 when Messi entered his prime, he had end product (goal or assist) in 27 out of 35 CL ties he played in (77% of the time). In the same time span Ronaldo had end product in 31 out of 37 CL ties he played in (84% of the time). Ronaldo has a marginally higher rate of giving end product in the Knockout Stages of the CL. This "more clutch" narrative just doesn't pass the test when, once again, we consider just how much better Messi is in building up play and how much more he does with his playmaking and dribbling abilities. You can find a long list of downright dominant games from Messi in which he neither scored nor assisted. Games in which he set up 5+ scoring chances for his teammates.

Besides as far as big games go why not also mention the knockout stages of the World Cup and Euro/Copa?

World Cup KO Rounds
Messi: 0 goals, 4 assists in 8 matches (1x Man of the Match)
Ronaldo: 0 goals, 0 assists in 6 matches (0x Man of the Match)

Euro Cup/Copa America KO Rounds:
Messi: 4 goals, 13 assists in 21 matches (5x Man of the Match)
Ronaldo: 3 goals, 2 assists in 16 matches (2x Man of the Match)

[Nike D'Antoni]

Pele, Brazilian Ronaldo, Maradona, Zidane are my top four of all time. They all won the world cup. Messi has 0 goals in the knockout stages of the world cup and constant choke jobs with his Argentinian team.

C.Ronaldo or Messi on CL level, I take Ronaldo. 5 CL titles with 2 different teams beats 4 CL titles with one team ( and one of Messi 4 CL he never played - 2005)


I don't think Messi can ever win something of note without Xavi - Iniesta

[ArbitraryWater]

Ignoring the group stage and Round of 16 is like ignoring the early rounds of the NBA playoffs. Who posts playoff numbers without the 1st and 2nd rounds? A later round doesn't always mean tougher competition. Look at Ronaldo's goals against Roma, APOEL, Galatasaray and Tottenham in the QF of the CL...

yeah, its like ignoring the 1st round.

Those are nice goals but in the end they would have won those ties one way or another. a close r16 for a #1 real/barca squad happens once every 5-6 years.

the fact you try to equal those goals where they ran over bum teams like arsenal or bayer leverkusen to the real heavyweight bouts where they play typically other group winners in qf is absurdly laughable.

youre a disgrace, basically.

ronaldo owns messi when it matters. cl qf-f.

you can yack about your group stage and r16 as mch as you want, but that will never cut it.

wasnt round 1's when jordan made his legacy.

and fck are you talking about round 2's.

round 2 is the qf. no one is discrediting that.

[dankok8]

yeah, its like ignoring the 1st round.

Those are nice goals but in the end they would have won those ties one way or another. a close r16 for a #1 real/barca squad happens once every 5-6 years.

the fact you try to equal those goals where they ran over bum teams like arsenal or bayer leverkusen to the real heavyweight bouts where they play typically other group winners in qf is absurdly laughable.

youre a disgrace, basically.

ronaldo owns messi when it matters. cl qf-f.

you can yack about your group stage and r16 as mch as you want, but that will never cut it.

wasnt round 1's when jordan made his legacy.

and fck are you talking about round 2's.

round 2 is the qf. no one is discrediting that.

If you start cherrypicking and removing R16 matches I'll cherrypick and remove the likes of Wolfsburg, Ajax, Roma, APOEL, Porto, Galatasaray, Tottenham, injured Juve that Ronaldo scored on in the QF because those teams aren't very good. Maybe I'll also mention the two offside goals (Bayern QF 2017) or garbage time goals (Arsenal SF 2009, Bayern SF 2014, Atleti F 2014). If you want to compare samples sizes of 10-20 games over 15 years be my guest. I prefer to look at the big picture. Their 150-180 CL games against variable European competition is a better indicator of their abilities IMO. Their 900-1000+ career games are also a better indicator. With large sample sizes there is less noise.

Anyways regarding the "clutch" argument...

FACTS
- Messi scored or assisted in 77% of KO stage ties and Ronaldo in 84% of KO stage ties since 2008-2009; this is a very small difference
- Messi scored or assisted a lot more in the knockout stages of the World Cup and Copa/Euro
- Messi is a much better player outside of scoring goals; he dwarfs Ronaldo in passing, dribbling and creates way more scoring chances for his team

The third point along with all their stats makes it extremely unlikely that Ronaldo is better than Messi.

[ArbitraryWater]

If you start cherrypicking and removing R16 matches I'll cherrypick and remove the likes of Wolfsburg, Ajax, Roma, APOEL, Porto, Galatasaray, Tottenham, injured Juve that Ronaldo scored on in the QF because those teams aren't very good. Maybe I'll also mention the two offside goals (Bayern QF 2017) or garbage time goals (Arsenal SF 2009, Bayern SF 2014, Atleti F 2014). If you want to compare samples sizes of 10-20 games over 15 years be my guest. I prefer to look at the big picture. Their 150-180 CL games against variable European competition is a better indicator of their abilities IMO. Their 900-1000+ career games are also a better indicator. With large sample sizes there is less noise.

Anyways regarding the "clutch" argument...

FACTS
- Messi scored or assisted in 77% of KO stage ties and Ronaldo in 84% of KO stage ties since 2008-2009; this is a very small difference
- Messi scored or assisted a lot more in the knockout stages of the World Cup and Copa/Euro
- Messi is a much better player outside of scoring goals; he dwarfs Ronaldo in passing, dribbling and creates way more scoring chances for his team

The third point along with all their stats makes it extremely unlikely that Ronaldo is better than Messi.

second bold: pretty random starting point haha. And also, goals > assists, and QF's > anything before. Try doing QF's on, and you will be bamboozled and back to:

first bold.

You're literally cherrypicking.

I'm counting QF-F which isnt a cherrypicking practice.

Who says we have to count R16-F?

We can, but no one (except maybe you) will make the argument that the R16 achievements are as valuable as QF-F ones.


Are you actually saying that?

Nobody gives a **** about what MJ did in the 1st round of the playoffs.

The occasion and opposition was heightened each and every round.

Sorry bub, this one stays.


Btw, Messi has actually not scored a lot more in the KO stages of the WC at all, and neither Copa to Euro (a worse continent, which he has played more often and was once played B2B years, and has enjoyed longer runs in at the hands of his superior cast).

You're literally lying at this point.

[dankok8]

second bold: pretty random starting point haha. And also, goals > assists, and QF's > anything before. Try doing QF's on, and you will be bamboozled and back to:

first bold.

You're literally cherrypicking.

I'm counting QF-F which isnt a cherrypicking practice.

Who says we have to count R16-F?

We can, but no one (except maybe you) will make the argument that the R16 achievements are as valuable as QF-F ones.


Are you actually saying that?

Nobody gives a **** about what MJ did in the 1st round of the playoffs.

The occasion and opposition was heightened each and every round.

Sorry bub, this one stays.


Btw, Messi has actually not scored a lot more in the KO stages of the WC at all, and neither Copa to Euro (a worse continent, which he has played more often and was once played B2B years, and has enjoyed longer runs in at the hands of his superior cast).

You're literally lying at this point.

Ok but if we are choosing QF to Final and that's ok then why not just Finals? Messi has 2 goals in 3 matches. Ronaldo has 4 goals in 6 matches but one of them (2014) was meaningless penalty in the 120th minute with his team already up 3-1. Messi is the better performer in the CL Finals which is the biggest stage.

Sorry bub, this one stays.

Here are the World Cup and Euro/Copa knockout stages stats again.

World Cup KO Rounds
Messi: 0 goals, 4 assists in 8 matches (1x Man of the Match)
Ronaldo: 0 goals, 0 assists in 6 matches (0x Man of the Match)

Euro Cup/Copa America KO Rounds:
Messi: 4 goals, 13 assists in 21 matches (5x Man of the Match)
Ronaldo: 3 goals, 2 assists in 16 matches (2x Man of the Match)

No... 4 goals and 17 assists isn't better than 3 goals and 2 assists. Not at all! :oldlol:

[Axe]

@hold this L what do you think?